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Stained_Steel
28-06-2012, 17:06
while playing a game vs one of my friends who has was playing vampire counts, and played the special character Krell, his Armour of the barrows turned the sword of swift slaying into a normal handweapon.

so my question is, may i now fight with my original hand weapon and this new handweapon which once was magical, counting as 2 hand weapons for +1 attack?

Lord Inquisitor
28-06-2012, 17:37
I believe the answer is "yes". The rules seem to still define "two hand weapons" as the requirement for the extra hand weapon bonus.

T10
28-06-2012, 17:40
Sure, why not.

While you are at it, give this some thought. Models always have a hand weapon. If it is lost then the model can always scavenge another from the battlefield. From this it follows that any model should always be able to scavenge another hand weapon since it is unlikely that they are both in limited number and only at hand for those rare circumstances where a handweapon has been lost.

Surely this means that all models can be considered to be armed with additional hand weapons.

theunwantedbeing
28-06-2012, 18:06
You don't get to switch during that combat though, you have to wait for a new one.

AntaresCD
28-06-2012, 18:51
No, you don't get to fight with two hand weapons. While it sounds counter intuitive, to fight with two hand weapons you need to have "Two Hand Weapons," "Additional Hand Weapon," etc. on your profile. When you have a magical weapon made mundane you have two of "Hand Weapon" on your profile now. As T10 mentioned, technically, all models have an unlimited supply of Hand Weapons per the rules. Only those that explicitly have the weapon listing for fighting with two hand weapons simultaneously get to do so.

AntaresCD
28-06-2012, 19:51
This is logical but there are examples like the beastmaster scourge of the DE that is a hand weapon, and can be used as a second hand weapon with the beastmaster's original hand weapon.

I don't know the rules on that weapon in particular, but I imagine it's like others I've seen of that vein where it specifically states you get the "Additional Hand Weapon" Rule, that you get +1 Attack, or something else along that vein. The point is that, unless explicitly given, you don't get more attacks from now having another Hand Weapon.

Lord Inquisitor
28-06-2012, 20:37
Heh, I deleted my comment as I checked the FAQ and they had amended the wording. Nevertheless, you need to show that having "two hand weapons" is somehow different to having two "hand weapons."

Soundwave
28-06-2012, 21:52
You don't get to switch during that combat though, you have to wait for a new one.

this is my pick of the answers you cannot pick up an additional hand weapon and switch combat with it,this is what makes black orcs and dwarven slayers completely unique.

Iraf
28-06-2012, 21:55
I think it would also depend if the model in question was able to take 2 hand weapons as an equipment choice (ie mounted characters, Bret Bsb, etc). If the model can, then I think in subsequent combats the 2 hand weapons would work.

Lord Inquisitor
28-06-2012, 21:57
Barring mounted models, why would this make any difference?

Iraf
28-06-2012, 22:01
I guess that I was just saying that I agree that it would work, as long as the model can take additional hand weapons.

Soundwave
28-06-2012, 22:17
I guess that I was just saying that I agree that it would work, as long as the model can take additional hand weapons.

Most models allow additional hand weapons but it is unfortunate that only certain troop types allow any sort of switch in-between eg black orcs ,slayers ,and on that note with the "im useing this one special rule" even characters cannot opt to switch and change no matter how redundant that weapon is even if broken.........

Iraf
28-06-2012, 22:23
I agree, which is why I said subsequent combats.

Soundwave
28-06-2012, 22:27
I agree, which is why I said subsequent combats.

If only your gentleman in question was equipped with a secondary hand weapon as magic items displace the initial "free" one correct?

AntaresCD
28-06-2012, 22:56
Heh, I deleted my comment as I checked the FAQ and they had amended the wording. Nevertheless, you need to show that having "two hand weapons" is somehow different to having two "hand weapons."

My immediate response would be because those are two different weapons and rules in the BRB and that the ruleset, in general, tells you what you can do as opposed to what you can't do for the portion in question. I'd also reitterate that technically every model in the game that has the ability to attack has two or more "Hand Weapons" but only a select few have "Two Hand Weapons" thereby gaining the Extra Attack special rule.

Having a second weapon does not mean you are capable of wielding 2 at once; it is a significantly more difficult thing that requires training, but that's fluff, we're talking rules.

As counter-intuitive as it sounds, the entry on Two/Additional Hand Weapons is a Special Weapon entry where the model on foot may fight with a weapon in each hand. That Special Weapon entry confers the Extra Attack special rule. This is clearly distinct from having a redundant Hand Weapon entry on your profile. Yes, you now have two "Hand Weapons," but nothing in the nullification of the magic weapon said that you gain the "Two Hand Weapon" Special Weapon. All you have is that the magical weapon is now mundane (which in most cases makes it a hand weapon).

As far as "Two Hand Weapons" being different then two individual entries of "Hand Weapon" being different; that is the point of the Special Weapons section. They made dual-wielding (which would have been a MUCH better name then "Two Hand Weapons" and avoided this potential issue) a Special Weapon. An additional "Hand Weapon" entry on a profile is redundant. The basic rules on weapons states that a model has an unlimited number of Hand Weapons available. If somehow they lost their Hand Weapon, they would have another. The corollary of that is that gaining an additional Hand Weapon entry that is not explicity the Special Weapon entry of "Two Hand Weapons" or "Additional Hand Weapon" is merely redundant as all models have an "unlimited" supply of Hand Weapons on their profile. I would put forward that much like Special Rules, you only have a Special Weapon (which is what the Two/Additional Hand Weapon entry is) when explicitly stated by profile or effect.

Stained_Steel
29-06-2012, 10:04
thank you for your answers, this time we played it wrong in that case...
s a savage orc waaghboss can have 2 hand weapons, and we thought that as his weapon was destrpoyed he might use it as this second hed get the rule, but if it comes up again, i wont use it.

Artiee
29-06-2012, 12:29
I would say a better question would be, would he get a parry save if he also had a normal shield.

Unless the savage orc lost combat, this question is mute.

T10
29-06-2012, 14:21
As far as fluff and game mechanics are concerned, a model that comes into possession of a second hand weapon must surely count as having two hand weapons. There are no rules that special weapons require "special skill" to use.

(though the argument made in the rule book for preferring a special weapon in stead of a han- weapon-and-shield is that the model IS trained for it, so make of that what you will)

It seems this is yet another case where the rules appear to permit what players instinctively feel to be WRONG.