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warlordgrubnatz
06-06-2005, 20:18
in the far future games workshop will probably kill off the imperium ( far,far,far,far,afr future like warhammer 50k) i want to here your arguments on who will take their plase ( unfortunatly for folk like me it will never be orks coz orkses always fight each other)

blitz589
06-06-2005, 20:32
is chaos still alive, if so it will be them, if they also died, it will probably be Tau, they might be able to get an empire goin

Exavier
06-06-2005, 20:40
[None of that]. as long as they can make money out of the whole 40K thing, then they stay. But, then if they retire imperials, that's the major contender gone. No plot whatsoever if the imperium isn't in it. cause the reason everyone is fighting on all fronts, is cos the imperium is so large that it could crush each race individually if it had to, at the cost of thousands. But the other races interfere.

malika
06-06-2005, 20:44
No reason to get so hostile :rolleyes:

GW doesnt move the timeline forwards...that is different that watching the 40k universe in lets say another 10k years :rolleyes:

The Imperium would die out in the long term, the Eldar probably too...the Necrons, Tyranids and maybe the Tau will rule the galaxy...and lets not forget the Orks...cant really whipe out these guys since they keep on appearing everywhere

SpeedyGonzales
06-06-2005, 20:48
The only material actually published by GW about the end of the imperium is the starchild theory.
But this is old RT-era stuff.
Nowadays no indication, so take your pick, every race would be equally likely to succeed (including humanity in whatever new form of organisation).

Anvils Hammer
06-06-2005, 21:55
maby the imperium will be overthrown by the masses and replaced with a galaxy spanning democratic liberal human republic, in which the rights of all are universally respected and diplomacy is reguarded as the best solution.

maby... but no one would buy the game"diplomacyandresouceallocation hammer - in the peacefull democracy of the far future there is only wealth for everyone and no suffering"

Captain Brown
06-06-2005, 22:20
The most likely demise of the Imperium would occur is GW goes into receivership and the licences are not picked up by anyone else. But as a publicly traded company the licences would be auctioned off to try and recover the investments of shareholders, so you do not have to worry.

From the background I would assume the Tau as the "Young" would be the most likely successor (as long as no one decides to launch a galactic crusade with genocide as the objective against them).

sigur
06-06-2005, 23:39
maby the imperium will be overthrown by the masses and replaced with a galaxy spanning democratic liberal human republic, in which the rights of all are universally respected and diplomacy is reguarded as the best solution.

maby... but no one would buy the game"diplomacyandresouceallocation hammer - in the peacefull democracy of the far future there is only wealth for everyone and no suffering"

The 40k universe is an extremist's wet dream. There's no way a democratic, etc. (= utopic society based on our nowadays viewpoint of humanism) could be established and survive.

I also think that the Tau stand a good chance to become the new rulers of the universe on the long run if Chaos doesn't just swallow it all.

Orks do have the potential, but will never rule the universe more than now because is would take an even greater genius than Ghazgul Mag Uruk Thraka to unify the clans.

Typheron
06-06-2005, 23:54
given the possable force of arms that would take combined with the various propheys about what happens (the muther of all battles) i would say that if them imperium goes then the better part of the galaxy goes to and taking the Imperiums place is a race that evolves from whats left.

Lockjaw
07-06-2005, 03:13
I just figure if th Imperium collapsed, then you'd have a bunch of smaller human organizations and kingdoms, probably alot of pirates too

x-esiv-4c
07-06-2005, 04:14
Well, if there is any progression at all, i'd imagine that Chaos would dominate, Tau would be crushed under-foot. The universe would get that much darker.

Thousandth Son
07-06-2005, 06:50
I imagine that the Tau are the most likely candidate, because they have the technology and the drive to do so.

The Orks, could one day perhaps own the whole galaxy, but not as one huge dominating presence. Rather as separate Ork Empires, etc.

The Tyranids by their very nature cannot rule anything, they can only consume and move on. So if they control the entire galaxy it will only be for long enough to move on to the next galaxy.

The Necrons... They do not have the numbers to maintain control of the entire galaxy. Plus their goal is to destroy the entire anyways.

If the Imperium goes, I am fairly sure that it will be in such a cataclysmic event that a fairly large protion of humanity will be wiped out, and the rest scattered and broken.

Chaos has the same problem as many of the other races, by it's very nature it would have problems dominating the galaxy as a unified body, unless one of the Big 4 was to assume total dominance.

The Eldar are too afraid to breed, and so their potential to rule the Galaxy is greatly diminished, because they barely have the numbers to maintain their Craftworlds.

So out the the current races, the Tau are the only ones who seem most likely to assume the role as dominant race of the galaxy. But that is not to say that some new unheard of race will not appear on the horizon. :skull:

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 09:03
There is no way the tau could control the galaxy with eveything that exists in it right now.

THere are more humans on a single hive world than there is in an entire tau held sector. EVERY race outnumbers the tau billions to one, with the nids going into googleplexs ;) .

No, with such a tiny foothold in the galaxy the tau are going to be a very short lived race, similar to many such 'banana' empires. Humanity was lucky that it was able to capitalise on the destruction of the eldar empire, AND the fact it already had colonies across the ENTIRE galaxy. With the tau unable to make any major jumps they are forced to stay in one small corner of the galaxy making them vulnerable to utter destruction.

There are 4 major menaces to all sentient races in the glaxy:

1: Chaos
2: Tyranids
3: Necrons
4: Orks

Orks are always around and so are not generally seen as much of a threat, however if the other threats are removed there is no way the tau could possibly defeat all the orks in the galaxy, there are just too many of them.

Chaos is less of a threat to tau because of their blunted souls, so they are unlikely to get many daemon worshipping cults popping up amongst the earth caste, but other races turned to chaos can draw on the limitless power of the warp, something the tau cannot.

Necrons are a big threat to the tau, becuase they will destroy ALL races, and are technologically much more advanced. Plus there are millions of them not yet awake, and at the moment only RAIdING forces have been sighted, no full blown armies.

The tyranids are the most direct and immediate threat to the tau as they are moving right through their space. The tau do not have the manpower to destroy entire hive fleets, the imperium could barely do that. The only chance the tau have conquering the galaxy is if they survive the tyranids, something I don't think they can do.


Personally, unless there is a way to destroy the necrons or nids, I believe that the galaxy will degenerate into a war of attrition between them


hellebore

Rövhalt
07-06-2005, 09:32
Well... you're wrong. At the Damocles Crusade the Empire had a big problem defeating the Tau. And they only made planetfall on one planet. And this was before Tau had any real battle ships. They just had upgraded exlporers at the time. But since then they have constructed battle Cruisers by the many and since they are the only ones who are actually evolving their technology makes them a good pretender for the throne.
Yes, they don't have access to the warp, but who's to say that the warp is only way of travling faster than light? The technological possibilities for the Tau are endless.

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 10:26
Well... you're wrong. At the Damocles Crusade the Empire had a big problem defeating the Tau. And they only made planetfall on one planet. And this was before Tau had any real battle ships. They just had upgraded exlporers at the time. But since then they have constructed battle Cruisers by the many and since they are the only ones who are actually evolving their technology makes them a good pretender for the throne.
Yes, they don't have access to the warp, but who's to say that the warp is only way of travling faster than light? The technological possibilities for the Tau are endless.

That was because one millionth of one percent of one sectors battlefleet was sent to dispose of them. The only reason they lost was because the nids invaded and they were seen as a much bigger threat. The imperium undersestimated the tau capabilites and didn't send enough troops. Had they sent the amount of man power used on the nids. there wouldn't be a single tau in the entire damocles sector.

Technology can only get you so far until numbers tell. Switzerland is quite technological advance, but if it got attacked by china it would lose, and very quickly.


When you have 10 guardsmen for every 1 tau fire warrior, no matter how good those fire warriors are or how great their weapons, when faced with 10 rapid firering flashlights, one of them is going to give him sunburn.

hellebore

Rövhalt
07-06-2005, 11:22
Ah yes, numbers. I think you overestimate this factor in warfare. Yes, numbers are ussually great but if you should remember World War I. Somehow technology defeated numbers in that war for some reason.
For you see, it dosen't matter how many flashlights you have, in the end the entrenched machinegun always wins.

Shinzui
07-06-2005, 11:41
That was because one millionth of one percent of one sectors battlefleet was sent to dispose of them.

That's utterly wrong, A Battlefleet consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size according to the BFG main rulebook.

The Damocles crusade consisted of a dosen capital ships and fourteen plus escorts (only mention of the escorts in the Daemocles crusade fluff was how many were destroyed) so a fleet atleast 26 warships which is without mentioning hardly one millionth of one percent of a Battlefleet size. If you count the fleet destroyed by the Tau at Resvar Six the amount of ships that took on the Tau easily match the size of a battlefleet (And before it is said, it's unusual for an entire battlefleet to be at the same place all at once as they are responsible for protecting their sector in addition to being an offensive force).

When Black Roses Bloom
07-06-2005, 11:43
Ha! You Don't Seem To See The Real Potential Of One Race!

Ratlings! :d :d :d

Sephiroth
07-06-2005, 12:07
THere are more humans on a single hive world than there is in an entire tau held sector. EVERY race outnumbers the tau billions to one, with the nids going into googleplexs ;) .

Not quite accurate. The Fire Caste Commander they were eating with in Kill Team, said there were more humans on that one world than their were Tau in that 'Sept'.

A Sept is a Tau system.

Sort of like Earth, Mars, the sun, Pluto etc are located within our system.

Seeing as Hive-Worlds have populations into into what, 500,000,000,000 according to the third edition rulebook on Hive worlds (That's the smallest number estimate).

Frankly, it doesn't surprise me the outnumber the Tau. Even if you were to set up colonies on all viable planets in our system, that's still going to be quite a squeeze. :wtf:

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 12:10
That's utterly wrong, A Battlefleet consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size according to the BFG main rulebook.

The Damocles crusade consisted of a dosen capital ships and fourteen plus escorts (only mention of the escorts in the Daemocles crusade fluff was how many were destroyed) so a fleet atleast 26 warships which is without mentioning hardly one millionth of one percent of a Battlefleet size. If you count the fleet destroyed by the Tau at Resvar Six the amount of ships that took on the Tau easily match the size of a battlefleet (And before it is said, it's unusual for an entire battlefleet to be at the same place all at once as they are responsible for protecting their sector in addition to being an offensive force).

Sorry, I was using hyperbole in order to get my point across. The imperium has huge resources, but didn't use enough on the tau. In fact, they have used more on their OWN people, than on the tau.

The point being that the imperium has some technology that is MORE advance than the tau, specifically ship tech, and had they sent the number of troops they sent against the nids, the tau would have been utterly destroyed.


Ah yes, numbers. I think you overestimate this factor in warfare. Yes, numbers are ussually great but if you should remember World War I. Somehow technology defeated numbers in that war for some reason.
For you see, it dosen't matter how many flashlights you have, in the end the entrenched machinegun always wins.

Of course that applies if your troops just run straight at the enemy and into their machingun pits. But the imperial guard also have navy support from orbit, and they have their own machine guns.

In fact the imperial guard have something the tau don't- siege equipment.

THe tau have nothing like the basilisk, something that could obliterate them with impunity.

Again I come back to the point that had the imperium sent MORE men and materiel to the damocles crusade, the tau would have been utterly destroyed.


THe tau empire is extremely small, clustered as it is around a very small sector. It cannot hope to beat off a concerted effort by the imperium to destroy them. It's logistically impossible. That is, if the imperium WERE able to make such an effort. But with armageddon, the eye of terror, and hive fleet leviathan about, they don't have the resources.

ANd then, should a full blown hive fleet invade tau space they ARE done for, kraken was stopped only by huge resources and millions of men, the tau do not have anywhere that amount of men and materiel.

THey don't have unlimited resources, and when you are under siege it is resources you begin to lack.

hellebore

Rövhalt
07-06-2005, 12:34
Yeah, like you I exagarated to get my point clear. But the Empire don't have the resources you talk about. Basically every fleet and regiment are protecting something, a planet, space anomlie, etc., that really needs to be proptected. The forces of the Imperial Guard and space marines are very numerous, but Terra can't afford to send them agianst the Tau. And as I said earlier, Tau didn't have Battle Cruisers at Damocles but juiced up explorers.
Had the Empire put in the resources they had used on Behemoth (Kraken hasn't really been beaten yet due to splinter fleets) then yes, Tau would have been a smear on an intergalatic express truck. But they couldn't afford to put in those resources and now Tau has learned its leason.

Adept
07-06-2005, 14:04
The 40k universe is an extremist's wet dream. There's no way a democratic, etc. (= utopic society based on our nowadays viewpoint of humanism) could be established and survive.

Nonsense.

In fact, through it's lack of direct control over each and every world, it could be argued that the Imperium is nigh to a libertarian utopia.

On a galactic level, the Imperium is xenophobic and intolerant to a needlessly extreme degree. On a planetary level, types of government will vary wildly from governor to governor.

Tau: If push came to shove, the Imperium would crush the Tau in next to no time at all. The question is, will the Tau be foolish enough to make themselves worth destroying?

Basically, it is impossible to tell who will succede the Imperum of man in ruling the galaxy. To be honest, I think it will be man, simply no longer under the rule of Terra.

LostTemplar
08-06-2005, 00:07
If there's one great thing about Mankind, both today, and certainly in wh40k, is that, they'll never be trully killed.

If the Imperium falls, you know whats gonna happen? Well, lets imagine, hipothetically, that the Tau, somehow, manage to overcome everyone and gain control of the Galaxy. Being as naive as they are, they will let the humans be.

And thats means, Chaos will remain.

And that means, that sooner or later, the Tau will fall beneath its allure, or shall I say, beneath Mankind's allure. They will be rendered to dust, because of their own errors, in trusting Mankind.

But the new kids on the block, just need to watch out for the old brother, the Imperium. If they atract too much of their attention, I'm sure that their so called "highly advanced technology" will meet a AM warfleet.

And then, there will be no Tau left.

But that'll never happen. Instead, everything will be in a constant stand-off, always winning an extra micron in the Imperium's galaxy-wide kilometer wide empire chart. In the end, the Imperium will always be under attack, and being beaten, but it will always be there. Woo!

Bauglir
09-06-2005, 21:20
If the Imperium collapse then the seat of Terra collapse. If the seat of Terra collapse the Astronomican will fade away and die. If the Astronomican fades away then there are no more space travel for humankind. No organizations, nor kingdoms or sectors like Ultramar will be able to cope with that and all will be lost.

And for the fate of mankind, it seems like just about every race (except the Eldar maybe, doomed as they are) are grave and dire threat to humanity.
-Chaos: The black crusades, the sundering of the Cadian gate etc
-Tyranids: *Invader Zim-like voice: Dooooom!* Just read the new codex.
-Orks: Endless hordes of them everywhere (according to an imperial space probe they seem to inhabit most of the space outside the Imperum).
-Necrons: Destined to eat us all according to Necron fluff.
-Humans themselves: The growing numbers of psykers
-Tau&Kroot: Agressive expanders, but a bit few and slow to be a real threat - yet.

Illuminarch
09-06-2005, 23:59
That's utterly wrong, A Battlefleet consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size according to the BFG main rulebook.

Yeah, you can't possibly take the BFG main rule book seriously, any more than you can GW's ridiculously tiny population estimates for well-developed, urbanized planets (500B for a Hive World? Cities that sprawl for hundreds and hundreds of miles and pierce 10 miles in the atmosphere? Please. Kentucky is about as densely populated. An 8 milion man PDF making a planet "as well defended as any in the Imperium"? In that case, the Imperium is about as militarized as Monaco.). 50-75 capital ships, let alone "warships of varying size" cannot possibly hope to repel a determined invasion of a handful of systems let alone a full sector, considering the sheer amount of space to cover. The Imperial Navy must conservatively consist of tens or hundreds of millions of large capital ships if it is going to be defend Imperial worlds from invasion, maintain enough of a presence to discourage open rebellion, and prosecute pirates and raiders.

Illuminarch
10-06-2005, 00:07
Yeah, like you I exagarated to get my point clear. But the Empire don't have the resources you talk about. Basically every fleet and regiment are protecting something, a planet, space anomlie, etc., that really needs to be proptected. The forces of the Imperial Guard and space marines are very numerous, but Terra can't afford to send them agianst the Tau. And as I said earlier, Tau didn't have Battle Cruisers at Damocles but juiced up explorers.
Had the Empire put in the resources they had used on Behemoth (Kraken hasn't really been beaten yet due to splinter fleets) then yes, Tau would have been a smear on an intergalatic express truck. But they couldn't afford to put in those resources and now Tau has learned its leason.

If this was true, the Imperium would have collapsed under the weight of the very next Black Crusade, Hive Fleet Incursion, or Waaaaagh...and by very next I mean ones that happened thousands of years ago.

Tau players tend to have this conception that because their tanks are sleek, their weapons are shiny, and their armor spewed from Bubblegum Crisis that they're some sort of serious threat to everybody. Maybe their Communist ideology and whoever is secretly backing them behind the scenes is, but the Tau Empire itself is a gnat-bite, saved only by the timely appearance of Hivefleet Behemoth and a half-way decent profit margin ;)

Bmaxwell
10-06-2005, 16:07
well it depends on way to many things. what seems to be happening is less people are looking at what is happening in the eastern fringe if this contuines then most of the smaller sub sectors will pull away form the imperium and become many smaller empiers but all haveing a mutal agreement (for food, water, other resources) much like a galatic alliance. and with the tau the way they are prehapes that tau them selves become absorbed into this alliance.

they would be a majpor threat to the impieruim.

that would be a awsome army.

Nagothrand
10-06-2005, 17:05
well it depends on way to many things. what seems to be happening is less people are looking at what is happening in the eastern fringe if this contuines then most of the smaller sub sectors will pull away form the imperium and become many smaller empiers but all haveing a mutal agreement (for food, water, other resources) much like a galatic alliance. and with the tau the way they are prehapes that tau them selves become absorbed into this alliance.

they would be a majpor threat to the impieruim.

that would be a awsome army.


The problem with this idea is that the real power-as it were-of the Imperium lies in its centrally-governed organizations. Unless you can persuade your respective parts of the Imperial Navy/Adeptus Mechanicus/Navigators/Administratum/Arbites/Inquisition to defect as well, there is no real way of leaving the Imperium without soon finding a massive army on your doorstep. Any true collapse of the Imperium IMO, will have to come from its core.

Onto the subject of the thread, it really depends on who you believe can wipe out everyone else. In their respective codexes the Orks/Chaos/Tyranids/Necrons tout themselves as the New Ultimate Threat (tm) to the galaxy. So if all the Orks manage to unite under one leader, they'll win. If there are really many more hive fleets heading to the galaxy, each bigger than the last, then the Tyrannids will win. If the Necrons fully awaken with their supposed *true* War of Heaven military capacity then they'll win. Each race have their potential trump cards and any of them could happen. Even the humans have no less than the Star Child, the Sensei and the Ordo Hydra to fall back on.

Though I'd pay to watch if all of the above happens at the same time. ;)

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-06-2005, 18:16
you're an idiot. as long as they can make money out of the whole 40K thing, then they stay. But, then if they retire imperials, that's the major contender gone. No plot whatsoever if the imperium isn't in it. cause the reason everyone is fighting on all fronts, is cos the imperium is so large that it could crush each race individually if it had to, at the cost of thousands. But the other races interfere.

Imperium is staying, it's the main source of GW's income.

Look, you have numerous Space Marine chapters, some with their own personalised models, you have 2 playable Inquisition Ordos, you have numerous Imperial Guard companies/regiments/whatever some with their own personalised models. That's 4 armies!

Besides, Warhammer 40k revolves around the Imperium. The rulebooks are made from the Imperium's point of veiw. So without the Imperium, who would the rulebooks be from the POV of? The Orks?!


the imperium is so large that it could crush each race individually if it had to, at the cost of thousands. But the other races interfere.

I doubt it could crush each race individually. And if it could, it would be at the cost of hundreds of billions.

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2005, 18:21
I would tend towards entropy, natural law. Chaos will reign simply because it doesn't need anything to hold it together. No governmental system or anything like that. A gradual, slow descent into chaos.

Falkus
10-06-2005, 22:04
Tau: If push came to shove, the Imperium would crush the Tau in next to no time at

As has been pointed out before, the resources required to do this would open up the Imperium to its many other enemies. Sure, if you line up all their forces against each other on one battlefield, the Imperium would win, but it's not that simple.


They will be rendered to dust, because of their own errors, in trusting Mankind.

Why does everybody think that young and optimistic means naive? The Tau don't trust mankind or the Imperium one bit, due to the Imperium's repeated violations of the cease fire treaty.


If the seat of Terra collapse the Astronomican will fade away and die. If the Astronomican fades away then there are no more space travel for humankind

Unless, of course, some clever fellow builds a ship that uses a skip drive like the Tau use, which doesn't require the Astronomican.


Tau players tend to have this conception that because their tanks are sleek, their weapons are shiny, and their armor spewed from Bubblegum Crisis that they're some sort of serious threat to everybody.

I've never said that, all I've ever done is refute the idea that the Tau could be wiped out at any time, but the other powers have more important things to do.


but the Tau Empire itself is a gnat-bite, saved only by the timely appearance of Hivefleet Behemoth and a half-way decent profit margin

Even before the Imperium pulled back because of the Hivefleet, its biggest victory had been the destruction of an undefended fishing colony by orbital bombardment. Sy'l'Kell resulted in heavy losses in the Imperium ground forces, and the Tau managed to evacuate most of their assets before the Imperium took the planet. Pra'yen was a pyrrhic victory, with the fleet suffering heavy losses; and Dal'yth was a stalemate.

Xisor
10-06-2005, 22:07
The thing with the Damocles Crusade was that it had ground to a halt. The Imperium couldn't make any advances and had no chance of reinforcements. The Tau hadn't quite defeated them, but held them up quite nicely. That they were needed elsewhere was a good thing for both sides. The Imperium thought 'Hmm, bugger that' and the Tau thought 'Thank the Aun to be rid of that gloomy bunch' :eyebrows:

Xisor

Emperor's Light
11-06-2005, 02:03
The Tau and the Necron are the only known 40K races that are likely to establish a galaxy spanning empire.

Chaos, Orks, and Eldar all lack centralized political structure, and their nature is such that any centralized political structure of any permanence is just about impossible.

The Tyranids don't establish empires. They eat and move on.

The Eldar also lack centralized political structure. The Eldar in current 40K belong to a vast collection of political entities. In any case, they seem unable to reproduce fast enough to even keep up their existing population, let alone expand.

The Necron are capable because they are highly ordered. In fact, the Necrontyr did have a galaxy spanning empire at one point.

The Tau also have the potential because they are highly ordered. Tau society is capable of the type of stability necessary to sustain a large empire. The Tau also exhibit adaptability, as demonstrated by their ability to form alliances with other species and bring them into the empire as well as their rapid technological development. These are all advantages they enjoy against the Imperium.

Inquisitor DreaxIV
11-06-2005, 02:20
Well i agree with everyone else that Tau will probably come into power after the imperium falls but sometime after that, the 'nids will eventually wipe out the entire galaxy :evilgrin: Maybe in 400k or sometime around that. In the meantime tau can rul all they want. The 'nids have an endless supply of hive fleets which just keep coming so they push further and further into the galaxy and each planet will fall under their wrath.

6th and Final Champion
11-06-2005, 03:14
I say Necrons

samtheman
11-06-2005, 03:47
The thing with the Damocles Crusade was that it had ground to a halt. The Imperium couldn't make any advances and had no chance of reinforcements. The Tau hadn't quite defeated them, but held them up quite nicely. That they were needed elsewhere was a good thing for both sides. The Imperium thought 'Hmm, bugger that' and the Tau thought 'Thank the Aun to be rid of that gloomy bunch' :eyebrows:

Xisor
My God...FINALLY! Thank you Xisor! Someone finally decides to actually think it through before posting! To all Tau players with wet dreams of an invincible empire- No. Just....no. You didn't smash the Imperials. You foughtthem to a standstill. Which, normally, would just mean that more troops are pulled in and it's "sayanora" suckers. Not in this instance.

With a Hive Fleet chomping at the bit, those troops were needed elsewhere. So off they went. A win for the Tau? Yes. A shocking defeat? Hardly. The Tau were underestimated. The commanders in charge of the crusade made some pretty damn incompetent moves. and, of course, the goal was that of a crusade.

Had the Imperium just wanted to wipe the Tau out (For that matter, if they want to now enough) they just needed to declare Exterminatus. There go Tau planets. Boom. Uninhabitable, yes, but vaporised. No more Tau. Hpwever, the goals of the Damocles Crusade interfered with that. The Imperium wanted those planets. To settle, not vape into moon dust.

And so, through a combination of the wrong goals, wrong approach, at the wrong time, the Imperium was forced into a standstill and had to leave, giving the clear victory to the Tau. But let's not get deluded. The Tau get too uppity and they are gone. Only thing that saved them was a Hive Fleet and the need for conquered planets. Though still, they did hand the Imperium's ass to it on a platter those first few engagements....

And it;s going to be Tyranids. They'll eat everything up. Depressing, sure ,that no one is going to be lft but Necronttyr, but hey. they're big, they're numberless, they're hungry. And we're their Big Mac.

Falkus
11-06-2005, 04:08
You didn't smash the Imperials.

I never claimed we did. Don't put words in my mouth.


You foughtthem to a standstill. Which, normally, would just mean that more troops are pulled in and it's "sayanora" suckers

More troops from which side? The Tau hadn't commited their entire military and were putting up good naval resistance, were fighting on homeground, and had a signficantly shorter supply line than the Imperium, which would have to receieve reinforcements and supplies across the Damocles gulf, which was a five month journey, at least.

Look, any statements on what would have happened had the Imperium not withdrawn are speculation at best, we don't know what would have happened.

samtheman
11-06-2005, 04:23
That wasnm't addressed to you specifacilly. More to the Damocles crew in general.


Look, any statements on what would have happened had the Imperium not withdrawn are speculation at best, we don't know what would have happened.
It isn't speculation. It's standard operating procedure for the Imperium. What have they always done when something gets tied down and they don't want it tied down? They throw more bodies at it. See, for example, armageddon. Or Cadia. Or the Hive Fleets making their way towards the Galactic Center.

Prior expericience has shown us that every time the Imperium is halted, it tries to make up its lost ground with overwheming force. The force was, of course, not there at the time. Had it been, which basically means no Hive Fleet, more troops and ships would have been sent in a heart beat. After all, if it's happened every time in the past, why would it stop now?

Because if you look at it from the colonization standpoint, until the time they pulled out, the Crusade was a horrendous failure. Nothing conquered in high enough number. Armies fought to a standstill. Battlefleets being outwitted and defeated by a foe with smaller, weaker ships. The Imperium was at a point where, if they wanted any hope of that Crusade succeeding, they needed to employ the standard sledgehammer approach.

Of course, an approaching Hive Fleet threw that plan out the back window. I'm not saying that the Tau weren't able to defend their own. They have far better ships now, they've fought the Emperor's finest to a standstill before, and they didn't comit everything. However, had the Crusade boiled down into a standard Imperial operation, more and more bodies would just keep piling p. There were plenty of guard regiments close enough to send as reeinforcements. Or at least there were until they became the tasty snacks of bugs....

angelspast
11-06-2005, 04:24
Tau take over the imperium? *snicker*. The tau exist as an oversight, a clerical error. Had the crusade not been redirected into the path of a hivefleet, the tau would be just another extinct xenos species, which they may yet become. Of all the races the tau are the least of the imperium's worries. Geeze they don't even have warp travel :rolleyes:

The Imperium's been around for well over 10'000 years, and the empire is on a mindboggling scale. Eventually it will fall as all things come to an end, but it will not be a single race/factor that kills it. It will take many many catastrophic events to begin the Imperiums decling, and even that will take thousands of years.

x-esiv-4c
11-06-2005, 04:26
i'm sceptical about necrons taking everything over. I mean, so far they haven't seemed to be too expansionalist.

Falkus
11-06-2005, 04:47
That wasnm't addressed to you specifacilly. More to the Damocles crew in general.

Are you trying to imply that I'm not the most important person in the universe? :)


It isn't speculation. It's standard operating procedure for the Imperium. What have they always done when something gets tied down and they don't want it tied down? They throw more bodies at it. See, for example, armageddon. Or Cadia. Or the Hive Fleets making their way towards the Galactic Center.

It would still take five months for each batch of reinforcements to get there, assuming they didn't run into any of the perils of the warp while enroute across the gulf.


Of course, an approaching Hive Fleet threw that plan out the back window

But that's part of my argument. The Imperium can't exterminate the Tau, because the amount of resources required to do so would significantly weaken them against other enemies, such as Chaos or the Tyrannids. The Imperium can't do it, because they've got so many enemies, who are currently far more of a threat than the Tau will ever be in the near future.


Geeze they don't even have warp travel

No, they have a far superior form of FTL travel, which has none of the risks involved with warp travel. Yes, it's a third as fast as average, but that's a guaranteed value. Standard warp drives, you go out, you could get thereon time, or you might be five hundred years late, or you might get eaten by demons halfway there.

Emperor's Light
11-06-2005, 05:05
i'm sceptical about necrons taking everything over. I mean, so far they haven't seemed to be too expansionalist.

The Necrons have only re-emerged for a short time. Considering that they waiting for millions of years, any plans of re-conquering the galaxy will probably unfold very slowly by human reckoning.



Tau take over the imperium? *snicker*. The tau exist as an oversight, a clerical error. Had the crusade not been redirected into the path of a hivefleet, the tau would be just another extinct xenos species, which they may yet become. Of all the races the tau are the least of the imperium's worries.


That is probably one of the biggest reasons why the Tau are likely to have a galaxy spanning empire after the fall of the Imperium. They are easy to ignore.

The present size of the Tau empire is not important. It's the potential that matters. Two centuries ago the United States was a backwater coalition of farming colonies. One and a half century ago Japan was a small island nation with no industry and armies still used firelock muskets. The Tau Empire might be small compared to the Imperium as of the 41st millenium. Given its potential, it might not be so small in 1000 years.

Illuminarch
11-06-2005, 05:27
Side-stepping the Tau issue for a second, the Necrons aren't going to do anything. And this may be a bummer of an argument, but the Necrons are, from everything I have seen and read, one of the least popular armies. The only ones less popular are the Dark Eldar and SoBs. I don't personally know anyone who plays Necrons or, for that matter, anyone who has played them more than twice. I give 40k two more "editions" before they go the way of the Squats.

Nagothrand
11-06-2005, 14:57
Of course, if the success of every faction depends on their army sales, then the space marines will end up ruling the galaxy. ;) Or at least, the Imperium is going to stay for a very,very long time, considering they have more than half a dozen army codexes.

About the Tau, we have yet to see what happens if some truly major threat smashes into their empire before it can grow to a respectable size. As mentioned by many others before, the Damocles Crusade was quite tiny compared to, say, the Sabbat Worlds Crusade.

Emperor's Light
11-06-2005, 19:27
This question can only be talked about from a fiction-writing kind of perspective. Since Space Marines are not likely to lose its spot as GW's top-selling model range, the Imperium's not going away.

angelspast
11-06-2005, 20:44
No, they have a far superior form of FTL travel, which has none of the risks involved with warp travel. Yes, it's a third as fast as average, but that's a guaranteed value. Standard warp drives, you go out, you could get thereon time, or you might be five hundred years late, or you might get eaten by demons halfway there.

Re-read your fluff, it's a sub FTL drive and it's very slow. The tau are limited in their expansion by their lack of FTL drives. The tau will never have warp travel becuase of their lack of resonance in the warp :p .

The Tau "empire" holds 3-4 dozen worlds, the Imperium millions. You take a guess at what will happen when the Tau recapture attention.


Of course, if the success of every faction depends on their army sales, then the space marines will end up ruling the galaxy.

Heh ultimately this is true ;) Squats, Dark Eldar, Harlequin's, Zoats, etc ,etc (perhaps tau one day :p )

Wraith
11-06-2005, 21:28
The C'tan and Pariah (human untouchables) Cyborg servants.

Even though there's a lot of Necron warriors they can't be replaced once lost in battle and as such their numbers will dwindle. Thanks to humanity though the C'tan have an endless supply of servants, food, and play things.

The Tyranids have little interest in C'tan/Necrontyr Tomb Worlds and they Tyranids certainly have no interest in the Outsider's Dyson Sphere which even on it's own could potentially hold trillions of pariah cyborgs.

So many pariah scuppers really will scupper chaos (as pariah have no soul to eat), it will hurt the imperium, and Eldar. The C'tan hardly need to fight the other Empires -- they could just let the Tyranids do that for them but thats not likely and they'll throw their entire weight at their enemies too.

Everything else is just basically screwed in this galaxy... Tyranids win, C'tan win, Chaos just looses one (of many) galaxies one the C'tan cut it off throm the warp.

I haven't even touched on the potential amount of not yet discovered C'tan in the other galaxies of the Universe (though they wouldn't have necrodermis upon discovery).

Only the Nids and C'tan, have troops else where in the Universe. I suppose Chaos do too but it's a loosing battle of Chaos Vs Tyranids and C'tan.

It all hangs on whether the C'tan are smart enough not to foster any confrontation between their armies and the Tyranids.

neko
11-06-2005, 22:09
Re-read your fluff, it's a sub FTL drive and it's very slow. The tau are limited in their expansion by their lack of FTL drives. The tau will never have warp travel becuase of their lack of resonance in the warp :p .
Hmm, I have the fluff from the BFG Tau trial list (which is pretty fluff heavy) open in front of me atm...

Taking typical Imperial Warp speeds the Tau drive was slower by a factor of five. The speed was consistent though, did not expose the Tau to the perils of the Warp and enabled the Tau to expand beyond their home star for the first time.
I'm guessing that full warp travel is faster than five times the speed of light, or else it would take the better part of a year just to get from the solar system to it's nearest nearest neighbour, never mind anywhere else. This would make the Tau's semi-warp travel a form of FTL travel.

Falkus
11-06-2005, 22:33
Re-read your fluff, it's a sub FTL drive and it's very slow. The tau are limited in their expansion by their lack of FTL drives. The tau will never have warp travel becuase of their lack of resonance in the warp

No, you read your fluff. The Tau drive is FTL, skips off of the warp, and is about a third as fast as standard warp drives.


The Tau "empire" holds 3-4 dozen worlds

Try a couple of hundred, and you'd be closer.


You take a guess at what will happen when the Tau recapture attention.


That's the point, the nature of the Tau and their threat to the Imperium mean that there's always something more pressing to devote the major forces of the Imperium to, like Chaos or Tyranids. The Tau are a long term threat, they're never going to threaten the fabric of the Imperium like the other enemies of the Imperium will.

angelspast
11-06-2005, 22:57
Meh your wrong again , guess you can't read. Enough time wasted here.

Shinzui
11-06-2005, 23:14
He seems pretty right to me.

Nessesary qoutes

BFG: Armada page 98

Tau vessels already used a form of gravitic drive. This projected a sheath of gravitic energy ahead of and around the vessel which was continually re-projected further ahead, drawing the ship behind it rather like an archaic sail. For two hundred tau’cyr the Earth Caste grappled with the problem only for the breakthrough to be handed to them.

On the innermost of T’au seven’s moons a routine geological survey discovered the remains of an alien vessel. The significance of the find did not disrupt Tau society as much as might have been expected. Tau theorists had long reasoned that other life forms existed and the verification helped confirm the belief that there was a greater destiny awaiting them. No Tau commented on the sheer good fortune of finding the technology that they so desperately needed on their doorstep just when they needed it.

The Tau were able to duplicate the warp drive of the alien ship but the initial test flights were disastrous. Achieving transition to the Warp required more than technology, it required psychically attuned minds and the Tau race boasted no psykers. Without them to guide the transition no amount of power could breach the dimensional barriers. The best the Tau could do was make a partial transition, forcing themselves into the void that separated Warpspace and real space before they were hurled out again like a ball held under water then released.

Data gathered at great cost during the test flights was studied closely. The Earth caste scientists made the observation that the boundary between real space and warp space was not a neat line. It was closer to being a turbulent ocean fomented by the tempestuous warp tides below. By carefully angling their descent toward the Warp and extending the field generated by the gravitic drive into a wing, shaped to hold the vessel down a Tau vessel could extend the duration of the dive considerably. The speeds achieved in the ascent back to real space were staggering and this coupled with the effect of the Warp on time and space ensured that the real distance covered by the dive was immense. Early tests lost several drone ships because they inadvertently passed far beyond the sensor range of their recovery vessels.

The details were soon resolved. There was still a major constraint, only the most powerful (and bulky) drives could sustain the gravitic wing throughout the dive and the power drain meant that considerable recharge time was needed between dives. Also by comparison to actually navigating the warp the pace was still very slow. Taking typical Imperial Warp speeds the Tau drive was slower by a factor of five. The speed was consistent though, did not expose the Tau to the perils of the Warp and enabled the Tau to expand beyond their home star for the first time.


And in reference to their later ships achieving 3rd average warp speeds.

BFG: Armada page 102

The Merchant class was originally developed to be the new workhorse of the empire. It's reactors were a fraction of the size of the Explorer's power plant but were capable of reaching a third of average warp speed, essential to bind together the emergent Tau Empire.

And the number of worlds contained in the Tau Empire (septs does not mean a single world or system as a Sept can be made up of multiple worlds. Vior'la for instance according to the article 'Vior'la a world of warriors' says that the Sept contains 11 colonised worlds).

Codex Tau page 4

Though not extensive it encompasses a region of space some three hundred light years in diameter, with the Tau home world at its centre, and nearly a hundred settled worlds.

The Index xenos: Tau article says exactly the same thing.

angelspast
11-06-2005, 23:21
Warp Travel it'self being about even to a FTL drive. Thus if Tau drives are 1/3 or 1/5 warp travel speed that makes them SUB FTL drives ;) .

Shinzui
11-06-2005, 23:24
Never seen anything indicate that Warp travel is even to FTL drive. Considering that Warp travel can vary greatly according to your theory only a fraction would actually achieve FTL speed.

neko
12-06-2005, 00:26
Warp Travel it'self being about even to a FTL drive. Thus if Tau drives are 1/3 or 1/5 warp travel speed that makes them SUB FTL drives ;) .
If warp drive only allowed travel at the speed of light, it would take approximately 3-4 years to travel just from the solar system to the nearest star. Considering that our galaxy is approximately 90,000 light years across and 3,000 light years thick, mere speed of light travel would be nowhere near fast enough to support an empire the size of the Imperium.
To put it in another perspective, if a spaceship travelling at the speed of light was to have left one rim of the galaxy at 0AD, it wouldn't have even managed to reach the center of the galaxy by the time 40,000AD came along. It makes more sense to assume that warp drive is more along the lines of 100s to 1000s of times faster than the speed of light.

angelspast
12-06-2005, 01:02
FTL stands for faster than light travel :rolleyes:

Xisor
12-06-2005, 01:27
FTL stands for faster than light travel :rolleyes:

So why does travelling at 1/3 or 1/5 make it sublight?

The point is effective transit times of Imperial and Tau vessels across interstellar distances differ roughly within a factor of five. And that is on the basis that Merchants(which were created when orks were faster, more manouverable, more heavily shielded and better armed than Tau vessels :eyebrows: ). Current day Day drives, IMO should be of comparable speed, if not faster than Imperial speeds unless they create a large fluff block to say otherwise.

The Tau are capable of FTL Travel. Simple as. They can move from A to B, within certain limits, quicker than light can. That is FTL transit.

As evidenced by Neko, Warp Travel and Warp Dive Travel are likely high orders of magnitude more faster than light, not simple 'even' with FTL Drive as you implied.

Xisor

Illuminarch
12-06-2005, 02:37
Yes, it's really impossible for Warp travel to be, on average, merely 3e8 m/s. I say on average because warp travel is very chancy, some trips taking longer than others even when they cover an equivalent "real space" distance. Typical warp travel must be many thousands of times the speed of light. The galactic diameter is roughly 100,000 LY, so even if it can take "years" to travel to the Eastern Fringe from the other side of the Galaxy, it's got to be at least 1,000*c, otherwise they would've said it takes a century or more. I'm thinking it's more along the lines of 10-20 years, tops, making it between 5-10,000*c.

Illuminarch
12-06-2005, 02:40
The point is effective transit times of Imperial and Tau vessels across interstellar distances differ roughly within a factor of five. And that is on the basis that Merchants(which were created when orks were faster, more manouverable, more heavily shielded and better armed than Tau vessels :eyebrows: ). Current day Day drives, IMO should be of comparable speed, if not faster than Imperial speeds unless they create a large fluff block to say otherwise.

No, that's wishful thinking. Just because the Tau are the only race that evidences any kind of technological progress does not suggest that in a mere three or four centuries they would be able to quintuple their FTL velocity, especially since it seems inherently limited to much slower speeds by their lack of entrance into the Warp.

Rabid Bunny 666
12-06-2005, 02:56
If the Imperium collapse then the seat of Terra collapse. If the seat of Terra collapse the Astronomican will fade away and die. If the Astronomican fades away then there are no more space travel for humankind. No organizations, nor kingdoms or sectors like Ultramar will be able to cope with that and all will be lost.

not really

during the heresy, the astronomican was created by sacrificing psykers to the machine by one of the high lords whilst the emperor was busy creating the golden throne

Falkus
12-06-2005, 03:56
Warp Travel it'self being about even to a FTL drive. Thus if Tau drives are 1/3 or 1/5 warp travel speed that makes them SUB FTL drives

I believe this point has been refuted thoroughly enough already.

angelspast
12-06-2005, 04:27
I believe this point has been refuted thoroughly enough already.

debated perhaps, refuted hardly :rolleyes:

Tau drives are sub FTL, and quite likely barely light speed.

It's amusing how pointless this thread has become ;)

Falkus
12-06-2005, 05:10
Tau drives are sub FTL, and quite likely barely light speed.

Okay, this has gone beyond a joke. Allow me to spell it out in simple terms for you: The average speed of a warp drive in the physical universe (in so much as it has an average speed) is estimated to be around about ten thousand times the speed of light. Tau skip drives are fifth to a third as fast as Imperium warp drives, meaning their average speed ranges from 2000 to 3300 times the speed of light, making it quite obviously a faster than light drive. Just because it's slower than Imperium FTL travel does not make it sub FTL. That would be like saying that diving four hundred by two gets you a number smaller than a hundred.

Are. We. Clear?

angelspast
12-06-2005, 05:17
Are. We. Clear?

We'll have to agree to disagree, die xenos scum :skull:

Falkus
12-06-2005, 05:26
So, bascially, you have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

angelspast
12-06-2005, 05:31
So, bascially, you have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

*yawn* Goodnight foul xenos, you'll be exterminated soon enough

Falkus
12-06-2005, 13:49
What? By someone who can' t handle simple division? I don't think so.

neko
12-06-2005, 13:59
What? By someone who can' t handle simple division? I don't think so.
Wait, I think he's an undercover Adeptus Mechanicus agent. No matter what you say he'll be convinced that his calculations are right because he prayed to his calculator before striking it repeatedly with a hammer! :D

Falkus
12-06-2005, 16:38
Wait, I think he's an undercover Adeptus Mechanicus agent. No matter what you say he'll be convinced that his calculations are right because he prayed to his calculator before striking it repeatedly with a hammer!

Aha! That explains everything.

Freak Ona Leash
12-06-2005, 17:42
HERESY! I'm gonna tell the Omnissiah on you! ;) So, has this thread become pointless spam yet? Or can I hang around a while longer :D

angelspast
12-06-2005, 19:33
What!? erm who told you that? Pure rubbish (glares at the servo skull, pulls hood up over implants, and stomps off)

This thread became pointless spam from post 1 :rolleyes:

Helicon_One
11-07-2005, 01:08
Doubtful that GW will ever progress the timeline far enough to see the Imperium collapse, which is a shame as if they did it right (big 'if' there, I know), it could be excellent.

If it happened, simple logistical realities would result in a divided, factionalised post-Imperial human race as power centres moved to maintain order on the local systems around them. The Imperium would split into a number of regional empires. One of these would almost certainly be Ultramar, which is already a semi-autonomous principality within the Imperium. Another would be the remnants of the Imperial 'core' centred around Terra, retaining the old institutions of the Admech, Ecclesiarchy and so on. The large Navy bases of the various sectors would probably form groups around them, but these would most likely remain loyal or at least on good terms with the Terra-based faction. There would probably be a number of empires around the outer edges of the galaxy, where the populations already are more independant-minded because of their distance from Earth. Some of the more independant minded Space Marine chapters, such as the Space Wolves, would probably strike out with a small empire on their own.

Frankly, I think such a divided human race would be alot more interesting than the Imperium now. You'd still have Emperor class battle ships and Titans and Space Marines and Imperial (or post-Imperial) Guard, its just that the existing resources would be divided between multiple groups. Finally a plausable reason for all the Space Marine vs Space Marine battles we constantly see! Plus, fluffwise, it would be interesting to see how the various factions, and indeed other xisting races, adapted to a galaxy without a monolithic Imperium of Mankind.

Probably never happen, but It could be fun.

Tim

Khaine's Messenger
11-07-2005, 03:22
i want to here your arguments on who will take their plase

A ruptured and broiling hegemony of disparate "sectors" and multi-"sector" empires of varying political histories (incl. chaos-ruled realms and new budding xeno empires), none of which could be said to be galaxy-spanning but all of which control a fair degree of territory and/or influence over certain territories, with the Tau perhaps being the strongest and most infrastructurally sound of these (although by then it could be that it is no longer called the Tau Empire due to the forces of population shift). If you mean that a slight reshuffling of forces yielding a similar "equation" to the one at present with someone else in the role of the galaxy-spanning empire of awesomeness, then I'd have to say that expecting that would be a little boring. :)

mortarion
09-08-2005, 23:46
The tyranids are going to rule the galaxy in the end. I say that not because I like those pesky little (and big) insects. They just seem to be an endles horde of fangs and claws that adapt to wathever opposition they meet. I mean, if one thing dosent work they just come up with a new bug that is suited perfect for that role...