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View Full Version : Do goblins make a better tarpit/anvil than night goblins for 100 points less?



EvanDynamic
29-06-2012, 06:02
Let me make the case:

+ Goblins with shield and hand weapon have better saves.
+ Night goblins do get to take nets for 45 points which about 83% of the time amounts to Toughness 4 instead of 3. This also makes the armor save resilient against high strength models . . . 83% of the time. But if you play 6 turns and grind with more than one unit, you're gonna miss. And if you grind the same combat, you re-roll nets each player turn, so I wonder if that one round of self-netting balances out the rounds of -1 to Strength.
+And remember, nets don't protect you against all those Strength 3 shooting attacks you're going to take whereas the Goblin's Light Armor helps.
+And 10 point Nasty Skulkers can keep a few of the enemy attacks off of your rank-and-file to prolong your survival. And 3 Attacks w/ ASF and KB ain't bad.

As for points:
40 Night goblins with full command and nets (and no fanatics) = 195 points.
You get 47 goblins with shields and full command for the same.

If your 40 night goblins want 3 fanatics for 75 more points that brings you to 270 points. Compare that to those original 40 goblins with shields and cmd that cost 170 points--a whopping 100 point difference! Although the unit has less to offer, it is a more reliable tarpit--no boomerang fanatics in your way or ill-timed self-netting. I'm starting to think fanatics and nets are over-priced, moreso because any given turn is Russian Roulette with these guys. 100 points per unit is a lot to gamble with.

Consider that for 100 points that unit could have its very own Goblin Warboss (lead 8 for steadfast) with an Obsidian Amulet (Magic Resistance 2 for the unit) and light armor & shield. And we all know the skulkers/characters front rank to block attacks back from hitting the unit, right? Am I missing something or is that one hard to mitigate anvil? Another option for that price is a Black Orc Bigboss for Ld 8 and Quell Animosity. Or for points denial simply add 30 more goblins for a 70 goblin 10x7 mega-horde if that's how you like to roll (Malorian). Or take the 100 points elsewhere and get an Orc Boar Chariot or Rock Lobber. 100 points get you a lot in the O&G army.

Thoughts? Has anyone else fielded goblins rather than NGs? Or tried both? I've used them very rarely for Nasty Skulker novelty acts but that's it really. But I'm still new to WHFB so please tell me why I'm way off the mark here if I am.

Note: I've intentionally ignored combat res for the sake of survivability to keep that steadfast and rank bonus as long as possible since this is a tarpit unit. Or was that a mistake?

russellmoo
29-06-2012, 08:17
You're not going big enough-

40 night goblins seems like a minimum size unit to me- plus night goblins get better the more of them you put in a unit as the cost of that 45pts gets spread out farther and farther-

However, if you are taking a unit that you intend to use as mostly a throw away goblins seem just as good as night goblins- where the night goblins shine is in the fact that a horde of say 70+ with 3 ng big bosses thrown in is not just a tarpit- it is actually a combat block, that can be used as a tarpit- or often it will kill things-

We can also take it a little further- lets say your local gaming group consists of some High elves, WE, some Dark elves, VC, TK, and Skaven- I could see goblins being more useful in this environment-

But, if you are facing down Ogres, Beastmen, O&G, WoC, Lizardmen, and Dwarfs- Night goblins become your friend- The difference is the amount of high strength attacks the armies can bring to the table-

The problem as I see it in an all-comers situation is- while Goblins might be nominally better against str 3 shooting and str 3 CC, ng's will still hold their own, while against Str 5 goblins just die, while ng's really shine.

bad dice
29-06-2012, 08:19
Short answer NO.

long answer



Let me make the case:

+ Goblins with shield and hand weapon have better saves. Doesn't realy matter compared to nets against S4 or more.
+ Night goblins do get to take nets for 45 points which about 83% of the time amounts to Toughness 4 instead of 3. This also makes the armor save resilient against high strength models . . . 83% of the time. But if you play 6 turns and grind with more than one unit, you're gonna miss. And if you grind the same combat, you re-roll nets each player turn, so I wonder if that one round of self-netting balances out the rounds of -1 to Strength. Dealing dammage is not a trapit's job so the -1 s of your own unit does not cancel out all the other truns of -1 s on them.
+And remember, nets don't protect you against all those Strength 3 shooting attacks you're going to take whereas the Goblin's Light Armor helps. If ppl are shooting your tarpit and not you combat blocks you are winning anny way.
+And 10 point Nasty Skulkers can keep a few of the enemy attacks off of your rank-and-file to prolong your survival. And 3 Attacks w/ ASF and KB ain't bad.
This is true when fighting characters when fighing rank and file on the other hand a nasty skulker is a goblin that is 3 times as expensive.

As for points:
40 Night goblins with full command and nets (and no fanatics) = 195 points.
You get 47 goblins with shields and full command for the same.
True that but who takes full command on a tarpit? Thats a waste of points they are ther to soak op those casulties and then hold due to steadfast
a banner muscian or champ does not help this at all.

If your 40 night goblins want 3 fanatics for 75 more points that brings you to 270 points. Compare that to those original 40 goblins with shields and cmd that cost 170 points--a whopping 100 point difference! Although the unit has less to offer, it is a more reliable tarpit--no boomerang fanatics in your way or ill-timed self-netting. I'm starting to think fanatics and nets are over-priced, moreso because any given turn is Russian Roulette with these guys. 100 points per unit is a lot to gamble with. Fanatics have noting to do whit beeing a tarpit i would not take them in 8th unles i was playing a NG armie. O&G now can de enough dammage whit combat blocks to win the game.

Consider that for 100 points that unit could have its very own Goblin Warboss (lead 8 for steadfast) with an Obsidian Amulet (Magic Resistance 2 for the unit) and light armor & shield. And we all know the skulkers/characters front rank to block attacks back from hitting the unit, right? Am I missing something or is that one hard to mitigate anvil? Another option for that price is a Black Orc Bigboss for Ld 8 and Quell Animosity. Or for points denial simply add 30 more goblins for a 70 goblin 10x7 mega-horde if that's how you like to roll (Malorian). Or take the 100 points elsewhere and get an Orc Boar Chariot or Rock Lobber. 100 points get you a lot in the O&G army.

Thoughts? Has anyone else fielded goblins rather than NGs? Or tried both? I've used them very rarely for Nasty Skulker novelty acts but that's it really. But I'm still new to WHFB so please tell me why I'm way off the mark here if I am.

Note: I've intentionally ignored combat res for the sake of survivability to keep that steadfast and rank bonus as long as possible since this is a tarpit unit. Or was that a mistake?

Overall i would say that ng do realy make better tarpits. Especialy if you go large. When you go 50 or larger the nets get even better on a point vs model count basis. Fantacs are not worht it IMHO certenly not 3. Same goes for full command.

Goblins do make a better bunker tough. As i discused in the O&G tactics thread. You dont wanna take a large unit as your bunker. Making nests no longer point effective. Skulkers on the other hand are great vs the stuff that normaly comes to threathen your like = flyers or flying characters .Those Can't realy deal whit the 9 S4 ATF killing blow attacks'. And chalenging that guy on the monster 4 turns in a row while your bunker keeps its steadfast is a game winner.

Yowzo
29-06-2012, 09:50
The thing with nets is that not only they make gobbos T4, is that they make any other unit in the same combat +1T.

That can be huge.

In any case, and ever since I got to paint my skulkers I am having a newfound love for common gobbos in not too big units, as once you count in nets and fanatics night gobbos are no longer that cheap.

Nymie_the_Pooh
29-06-2012, 10:32
Armour is too easy to negate when talking about either of these units to figure it in for many calculations. It helps some for small arms fire and maybe a stone thrower depending on the war machine in question, but there is still quite a bit of either that ignores either part or all of a 5+ armour bonus. Wood Elves would bring it to a 6+ which is where you would see most of this style of attacks. Handguns negate it completely. Every army has access to strength five at a minimum in blocks within its special choices if not its core. It was less prevalent in seventh because always striking last meant great weapons might not get to attack back, but that much less of a threat in eighth.

The real reason for getting the shields on the Goblins is for the parry save which only matters to the front. In which case, both units get the same parry. The nets are added in on top of that. Either is pretty easy (aside from painting) to take at least one block of 100. If somebody has enough shooting to make a 100 strong unit of night goblins panic then chances are you are going to mop them up when you reach them or they are ignoring the real threats for a couple of turns.

If you are running a block of 100 then Goblins with shields and light armour are five points more than Night Goblins with shields and nets. I wouldn't consider running a horde block of this type with less than sixty models when going beyond learning games. At sixty strong the Night Goblins are only fifteen points more. If you are going with forty or less then I tend to think of the unit either as support (counter charging or archers), or it's a bunker where I think Goblins are better with their Stalkers, but are enhanced further if they are in position to benefit from the nets as well.

If you want the best of both worlds, run a twenty strong unit of Night Goblins with bows alongside a big block of Goblins with shields. If you work it right the Night Goblins can flank the target unit and bestow the net bonus to the Goblins. You could also experiment with lining up to have both in the front of an enemy unit. If the Night Goblins die then something else isn't dying and you lose 105 points. The only command I would consider for that unit for trying this is a musician which in that case it's actually 115 points lost. If it works then your Goblins gain the bonus of the nets.

Yowzo
29-06-2012, 12:39
Armour is too easy to negate when talking about either of these units to figure it in for many calculations. It helps some for small arms fire and maybe a stone thrower depending on the war machine in question, but there is still quite a bit of either that ignores either part or all of a 5+ armour bonus.

Common gobbos keep a 6+ plus 6++ parry save against S4, something you'll see often. And the cost of nets can buy you a bucketload of common gobbos.

Malorian
29-06-2012, 13:15
In a small unit I agree, but I see 50 as a minimum, and you can't include fanatics in the cost as they are basically another unit.

The synergy with joined characters is huge, and they also have a higher initiative which can come in handy.

Str 3 shooting is very rare, and when seen it's in very small amounts. In the end, if I'm facing wood elves and they want to shoot my night goblins rather than my savages I'm just fine with that.


So I'll grant that goblins are more resilient in small numbers, but really no one is taking small numbers competitively, and even if you see the difference as too small to matter you can't deny the synergy with characters.

Nymie_the_Pooh
29-06-2012, 13:26
Common gobbos keep a 6+ plus 6++ parry save against S4, something you'll see often. And the cost of nets can buy you a bucketload of common gobbos.
That is true. A lot of it depends on your local scene. Most of the time for my games if I am facing S4 or less in close combat then I likely locked horns with another defensive horde block and not their killy units. It's probably another unit with either hand weapon and shield or spear and shield. It does happen sometimes, but I see more enemies with great weapons than wielding two weapons. Halberds show up more often for infantry here than two weapons, but less than great weapons. If I match up head on with another defensive unit then we are probably stuck for a few turns no matter which goblins I go with if there is no outside interference.

I will disagree on the bucketloads part however. Thirteen shield Gobbos is hardly bucketloads. The cost evens out when you hit ninety models and then regular gobbos start costing more after that. When looking at sixty models the difference in cost is five shield Goblins. I don't see a horde block any smaller than that holding a position for multiple turns. It's a series of tradeoffs. At one point one may be better and at another point the other may pull ahead. I think the differences between the two as they get larger smooth out to the point where they are pretty much dead even for a stretch. Regular gobbos are much nicer for that small frontage bunker to protect a caster, and night gobblins bring some fun toys to the table that can affect units other than themselves.

I guess it comes down to what one intends to do with the unit. I can't imagine trying to use a block of forty Goblins of either variety to try and hold a position for any length of time. Sixty or more is about right in my opinion for such a task. Maybe as low as fifty. They need to be able to go horde, take casualties, and still maintain a nice rank bonus. I can see forty or even fewer as a bunker however or armed with spears in horde formation for a more offensive use for Goblins, but I was picturing the use of holding a position when I first read the OP. I'm sorry for that as I think I read more into what the OP's intent for the unit was than what was actually stated.

EvanDynamic
29-06-2012, 15:57
No worries Nymie, I was asking about tarpits although I'm interested in everyone's combat horde insights.

I'm glad I asked: you guys know the meta and the other armies better and I hadn't counted on that many Str 4+ attacks. Russelmoo basically listed my local scene: we have more "High elves, WE, some Dark elves, VC, TK, and Skaven."

One thing that you didn't touch on (I never really asked), do you take HW + Shield for goblin or NG tarpits (not deathstar hordes... I'm starting to think hordes might be the only way you run goblins)?

And you're also right, 40 goblins is a vastly different unit than 60 night goblins.

But I would disagree that this the only way to run either kind of goblins competitively. I know a good ETC player on the US team whose O&G list favors 25-35 NGs w/ 2 fanatics. Granted he's not using them as immovable blocks though. Their role seems to be as baiting failed charges, countering elite cav flankers via fanatics, or quick pins for multi/flank charging. Also as stand-and-shoot landmines (he likes to nominate the the end of the back rank as the point to send fanatics out and the direction as diagonally through his NG unit to ensure finish underneath the chargers rather than possibly bouncing through for extra Death Throws hits and prevent future fanatic mischief by deleting them when they are released). I don't know that he's for 40 goblin units though.

So are you guys saying that 40 goblins with HW/shield isn't enough to charge into a Str 4 unit, hold in the following enemy turn, and still provide bonuses in your next turn when you flank charge with combat units or chariots/Manglers? I agree that for long-term tarpitting it looks like 60+ NGs are better. But can 40 goblins fill the role described above do you think? Am I just going about it all wrong (I have a 1500 point tourney coming up and fitting O&G's strengths into 1500 is vexing, my biggest weakness is building competitive lists)? I was thinking of running this unit with skulkers, combat-goblin warboss with Trickster's Shard to synergize Killing Blows, goblin boss front-rank filler with orc chariot & troll in support. Maybe NG BSB with +1 LD Standard and NG Shaman in 2nd rank (after skulkers die, command models step up before characters right?).

Malorian
29-06-2012, 16:27
Hand weapon shield is clearly the way to go for a pure tarpit, but a skilled player can make anything work.

40 may be too small, it all depends what you are facing, but in my experience between pre-combat losses and then the losses in combat 40 can be a gamble especially when you think about competing with your opponent's anti-steadfast units as well.

Basing a unit on holding for only one round of combat is also risky as you can't be sure your opponent won't block your chariots or other support unit.

EvanDynamic
29-06-2012, 18:53
Yeah, that echoes my own fears as well... it is risky. But for this 1500 point tourney I was gonna try to sneak by with it and hope the other guy is either skimping as well, or simply cannot afford enough units if he isn't so I can dictate combat better. But that doesn't really help against a gunline and I fear that at 1500 pts. other armies might try gunlines. I think that gunlines are particularly dangerous for an O&G army @ 1500 pts. to deal with. I could gunline too but I've never been super comfy with idea of orcs who sit back and shoot rather than attack, no matter how competitive it is.

I'm basically hoping a stiff shot of lvl 4 Big Waagh magic and a little lvl 2 Mushroom chaser can make up for shooting. I also am going to try and out-number my opponent on the ground and out deploy him via 4 units of 1 troll each (one is stone). Alas I own no wolf riders which I'd prefer. And 75 pt spiders seems like a pricey drop/throw away re-director at 1500 pts., do you think? How do you guys add drops to a big unit army?

I'm toying with the idea of adding a gobbo boss on a spider or two to the list. Then after I spread trolls for my early drops, no matter where I deploy my general's unit, I can have a gobbo boss join the 'unit' of 1 troll that deployed outside the Inspiring Presence bubble. It's 90 points for the couple but it's better than 75 pts for my spiders which always seem to panic from shooting by turn 2. In a later turn after I (hopefully) pass stupidity on the gobbo's lead, I can split the unit (maybe even hand off Ld duties to the Inspiring warboss if I play my cards right). That was I get two re-directors/war machine hunters for the price of one.

Plus I think the trolls are my most cost-effective option at 1500 to deal with high str/toughness models. Target saturation too... seems like a good idea. What do you think?

I know I'm getting into list-building but I feel it's a tactical discussion rather than a 'post army list & critique' like the other forum is.

Malorian
29-06-2012, 19:16
Trolls are definately the throw away units you want, but it seems you are taking a LOT of magic at 1500.

At that level I see no need for a back up level 2. Hell I may just put a ruby ring on my bsb and leave magic at that.

As you said gunlines do well in low points BECAUSE people don't cut back on their characters. If you instead take a cost effective general and bsb then you will have enough troops to soak up the shooting.

Then bringing it back to topic, there is no need to even ask the question as you can have bigger units, giving NG the advantage.


On a different note, at that level people tend to not bunker so a unit of 20 goblins with shields and 3 skulkers could do very well to run up and kill characters. Characters who tend to leave the wards at home at this point level.

EvanDynamic
29-06-2012, 20:10
Yeah, the tourney is scored on amount of victory points earned not whether you win, lose or draw. So I wanted a cost-effective way to earn those character points.

And that was my thought exactly. Like I said, I initially had 40 gobbos shield/HW w/ 3 skulkers & a goblin warboss with tricksters shard to get enemies to re-roll on ward saves against my killing blows. Between him and the other bigboss though I have 200 points tied up which is way too much. I tanked them up good with magic items for big saves to help plug the front line, but the in reality the skulkers will drop fast enough to expose the unit rank'n'file to attacks back. It started as an experiment on Army Builder but now I realize it's a lot of points that only really pay out if the enemy's character unit hits me before anything else does. The unit can fill a lot of roles which is good in a 1500 pt list. It can take a charge from most stuff like a champ, drops characters obviously, protects its hexing NG shaman, and it can out-grind a medium combat unit, especially with flank support. Maybe if I scale back the characters and add more models like you say. Several of its strengths are situational and goblins aren't known for their clock-work battle plan execution.

Switching to larger NGs might make sense. I could toss in fanatics to delete the cav or weaken tough stuff.

I do have a 20 goblin w/ skulkers bunker for my lvl 4 orc shaman that could serve the purpose of character deletion late game after the gaps open and the skulkers can remain concealed until they reach the character unit. I get what you are saying about magic but the Big Waaagh is just so devastating and at this points level it can do real damage to offset taking minimal points in shooting (and more points to baby sit war machines). I have 2 Doom Divers but figure Rock Lobbers will be less powerful at 1500 point-sized armies. And Hand of Gorking on the flank for some Sneaky Stabbing Skulkers re-rolling their WS 2 hits and KBs seems nifty. Or the 20 Orc Big 'Uns I got (I know... too small, the list needs work.)

Malorian
29-06-2012, 20:17
Only scored on VPs earned? Well then who cares about tarpit units, you need units that can kill and earn some points!

How about this:

Lvl 4 orc great shaman w/ dispel scroll

Night goblin big boss BSB

40 big un savage orcs w/ extra choppa, banner
20 night goblin archers

40 black orcs w/ banner, flaming banner
6 trolls

Total: 1500

That's what I would run.

Nymie_the_Pooh
29-06-2012, 21:52
I agree that sixty plus is not the only way to run them competitively. Those numbers are my opinion for a dependable tarpit in my local games. Forty could work at 1500. It's hard to find games under 2000 for me so I haven't had much experience with 1500 lately. The trouble with forty for a tarpit unit is that as soon as you lose one you lose a rank, and if you've lost one there's a decent chance you've actually lost five or more that same turn. I think either spears or hand weapons could work at forty, but I wouldn't think of it as a tarpit. For me a tarpit is something I can count on to hold a position or tie up part of the enemy line for a minimum of three rounds. Forty could be a potential anvil if you have a hammer you plan on running alongside it ready to take advantage of the numbers they provide. The twenty five to thirty five you listed is a very viable option, but it sounds like they are more a delivery system for fanatics and designed to disrupt parts of the enemies line as well as redirect it where possible but not really built for surviving much on its own.

If using spears then march it up the field and plop it in front of whatever you want. Make them choose between going around or charging it. They get the combat resolution bonus for charging, but you attack in four ranks. It's something they have to deal with somehow as if they turn you can charge their flank. Force them to make that decision. Have the hammer units hang back a bit so they can charge in the following turn. If going hand weapons then do similar, but you can charge them if it looks more advantageous. A supported block of forty can win combat where the sixty strong block with no support is designed more for surviving combat. The sixty can fill the anvil role better, but forty should be okay for a turn or two if support goes well. Orcs and Goblins are tough to depend on for getting multiple units to work well together before seeing combat, but it can and does happen and is something you should be trying to do know matter what size unit you go with.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to make up for lack of shooting. Shooting may cause panic tests, but unless we are talking about war machines it takes quite a bit of concentrated fire to normally cause a panic early in the game.

While typing this I went to preview the post and saw it was VPs only. That changes some things. In that case you want to break and run them down over the ability to hold in place for more than a turn. Shooting is definitely not something to worry about bringing much of. Unless something is near a table edge causing panic isn't likely to do much more than cause the unit to lose a turn of moving. That can be helpful at times, but it doesn't really contribute to VPs. The new goal is to win combat and not just survive it and the way to do that is to kill as much as possible then run it down. Having a unit or two of archers and/or cavalry of some sort can help with mop up duty should your close combat units fail to run down an opposing unit after combat. Before that stage in the game I wouldn't count on the archers to do much as they will take a handful of models out of a unit at most. You need to wipe out anything that has been diminished. A unit that has been taken down to three models and left alone after that denies you VPs. You probably don't want to direct a combat unit to take them on if it takes them out of the way to other targets which is where the archery helps.

Units of forty goblins with spears can be nice for engaging the enemy with multiple units. Even if you lose combat and one unit runs there is one or more unit still locked in close combat to help mitigate the enemy's ability to run them down. There are better options in the Greenskins book, but if we are talking about Goblins only in this environment then spears are probably the way to go at forty models over the hand weapon/shield combo. The regular Goblins with skulkers and a cheap big boss can be a nice assassin unit the turn it charges. The trick here is to keep it cheap as it will likely be taken out, but its job is to take out a pricier unit on its way. I would try about thirty for this unit. Run some trolls in front of them to soak up possible ranged damage and have them reangle part way up the field so they can charge around the trolls to where you need them. You will lose the unit, but they give up very little. I would not put a standard or musician in the unit, and a boss is debatable as it doesn't bring as much as the skulkers do to the the table for the same prices, but it is an extra attack. If you can shield them properly you may be able to get away with going twenty strong so only sacrifice 90 VPs + what is spent on the character instead of 120 + character. The Big Boss should be kept as cheap as possible, but a couple of magic items such as the potion of strength or relic sword (although not both on the same character) can help the unit do its job better. You have to be careful here though as a unit of thirty with a tricked out big boss can run you two hundred points if you get greedy. I like the combination of potion of strength with the gold sigil sword, but that alone brings the big boss to seventy points which is one example of how easy it is to give away more VPs than what is probably worth it. A two handed weapon could work with the thirty strong unit if you can make it to combat with a couple of ranks, but it's tricky with less than that as it may mean your character might not be able to attack. A big boss with great weapon and potion of foolhardiness is looking at four strength six attacks on the charge for cheap but is worthless if there isn't enough models to soak up attacks before he can attack.

If they have a small unit with a character it is probably a great target to assault as you get the points for both the unit and the character. Those are the units you want to set up to get into with pretty much any unit you bring. Such a unit likely to always be a high priority target, but when playing for VPs they tend to give up more for less work than many other units.

Tarpits are probably the last thing you want to engage if building purely for VPs. You will kill them eventually, but sixty or more skavenslaves give very little in terms of VPs. They can tie up one or two assault units for a couple of turns which could have been spent on an extra turn of movement and a turn attacking a juicier target. A tarpit can still be helpful to you for the same reasons, but it has to engage the right targets and it will go down at some point. Skaven can also do it cheaper so its highly probable you will see such a unit if you face the Skaven player.

Shimmergloom
30-06-2012, 15:24
Malorian, we are having a small 1250pt tourney at the end of July, that I am hoping to attend.

Do you think this could be a good list for that? I think we are using book scenarios and Blood and Glory will be one of them.

1. Savage Orc great shaman, general, shrunken head
2. ng bsb, lt armor/shield
3. 40 savage big'uns, 2 choppas, FC
4. 20 ng w/hw/shields, banner
5. 5 wolfriders
6. Troll
7. 18 squigs, 10 handers
8. Mangler squig
9. Mangler squig

Total: 1248

EvanDynamic
30-06-2012, 17:05
I like your list Mal, straight and to the point. Few Animosity tests fits in the 12" bubbles. I got a practice game or two today with a friend. I'll run that list for one of them. But I'll need to proxy a bit. I just started in WHFB in December and am at the stage where I have bought 200 ($ cheap) goblin models to get a list that covers 2500 points but still have just 50 orc boyz models (with a smattering of other support/hammer units that aren't orc infantry). I know I need more orcs but right now I just have spider riders for fast cav and could use some wolves since I think spiders are abysmal and I need something in that role.

And to clarify the points at this tourney, there are a few objectives each game that earn 1-3 battle points for the match score as well as some clever game-changing-but-not-game-breaking scenarios. But the other 20ish battle points each match in the 2500 point tourney were earned taking your victory points score, dividing by 100 and rounding down to get your battle points for the match in addition to any objective points. So like a VP score of 800 earns you 8 battle points towards your total for best general (which at the end of the tourney are summed for each player to determine rankings in addition to painting and sportsmenship for best over all and tie-breakers). It encourages engagement over points denial I think. To be best general you need to be tabling your opponents. And at 1500 pts we should be able to fit in all 6 turns under the time limit which helps the orcs mop up.

Thanks for the in depth breakdown Nym, nice to see I'm not the only one here who writings a lot. I think your points are good for the tar. I didn't articulate it, but mentally I had shifted from the initial post about tarpits to thinking about this a a 40 model anvil with support. The trolls in front/along side of the skulkers was my gameplan as well. Depending on deployment a savage orc kill squad on one side and a NG net/fanatic support unit to the other. Chariot/trolls in between to control traffic.

But I had envisioned the central goblin unit as, well it's oxymoronic, but a killy anvil. I added a Tricker's shard killer gobbo warboss general and another cheap bigboss, and a super cheap NG BSB to second rank. I took Mal's initial advice that I had too much magic, switched to spamming a few cheap NG shamans for the extra channels/Sneaky Stealin' and would second rank them in this unit or put them in the NGs. I was gonna run the skulker/character front rank wall for a round or two of good combat rez and then I imagine the unit would still have enough gobs to anvil for a round or two after the skulkers and possibly characters die. It's not a stretch I thought that I'd be able to circumvent enemy characters with all the ASF KBs plus the gobbo bosses' attacks, plus the re-rolling successful ward saves against KBs via the Trickster's Shard. If that's the case then I just scored some characters points and have a unit in better position to win that combat and my army is hopefully is facing an army without a wizard.

By dropping the trolls in either singlely or in pairs, I was hoping to out deploy and then have a troll cordon to maximize the chances that the goblin assassins would torpedo the opponent's character-laden point vault rather than an eagle. If there's no vault available they can still loosen the cap on some tough, expensive unit for a round before the rank-n-file gobbos start vanishing. NG's and Savage Orcs with trolls/chariots in support on either side to open the lane. And tip the scales with a flank overrun if the center goblin combat drags on.

Rules question: We know the O&G FAQ says the Skulkers need to Make Way rather than replace non-rank and file models. And the general FAQ says fighting rank models are immediately replaced & elsewhere it says that characters must fill spaces in the front rank as they become available. So in the unit I described above, the skulkers Make Way and displace the 3 command models to the rear rank. But what happens for casualties? Does command step up first (great an immovable muso & banner slot-filler) rather than the characters (risking my fragile BSB and shamans)? Also when does the swap happen, at the end of each initiative 'phase' in that combat's initiative sequence?

I know this isn't some killer tactic that I'm not going to leverage to certain victory, but I want to know how to effectively employ it when I do use it.

EvanDynamic
30-06-2012, 17:26
Good question Shimmer. I was wary of the that built at this points level. It is a bit eggs-in-one basket when your general and only caster is on the front line as the the key to your offense in a Savage Big 'Uns unit. With the Shrunken Head, I add Fencer's Blades and an Obsidian trinket on him for some protection. He's like a 300 point model in a 350 point minimum unit of 30 models with that kit (even more if you took 40 orcs, I take 30). When I tried to write that build, it looked like I didn't have enough points left to make reliable sized supporting units or buy war machines. The list didn't seem to have enough drops which means your Savages could get out deployed and you're facing a lot of turns chasing down the high-value target on the far end of the table. Too few moving parts to control the re-directing/charging game in my mind. And obviously if he dies for any reason you lost a quarter of your army at 1250 points and if that unit gets Frenzy baited out of position and takes a nasty flank attack, half your VPs are gone and you don't have anything else with solid combat rez against infantry blocks or to break steadfast.

Very tough call to have half your points invested in 31 models that can be easily re-directed due to Frenzy and flank charged due to no Flee! reaction.

Malorian
03-07-2012, 19:33
Malorian, we are having a small 1250pt tourney at the end of July, that I am hoping to attend.

Do you think this could be a good list for that? I think we are using book scenarios and Blood and Glory will be one of them.

1. Savage Orc great shaman, general, shrunken head
2. ng bsb, lt armor/shield
3. 40 savage big'uns, 2 choppas, FC
4. 20 ng w/hw/shields, banner
5. 5 wolfriders
6. Troll
7. 18 squigs, 10 handers
8. Mangler squig
9. Mangler squig

Total: 1248

It really is going to depend. If you see an army with a fair amount of shooting and cheap throw away units the manglers and squig herd would not do very well.

That number of squigs can also be smashed through if you aren't lucky and take a couple of chariots to the face. (then again the same goes for a horde of 40)

I would suggest going with more reliable units, but then again you could do very well with that list given the right match ups. (Come on ogres with no tigers...)



So how did that game go using my list?

Shimmergloom
03-07-2012, 19:57
I haven't had a chance to play a real game since May, but I played a couple on Universal battle that I won and was winning a 3rd the other day before my power went out.

I have no experience with 1250pts so don't know what to expect. I'm considering passing entirely, because I just have little interest in small point battles.

Malorian
03-07-2012, 20:04
I'd go. It's something different and you don't get many games in as it is so you might as well :)

Maybe go with a completely different kind of list and just have a fire ball ring on the bsb. There is a good chance you won't see many magic users at that level and that would allow you to get more units in. Then just design it like a 7th ed list with several blocks of 20.

Have fun with it :)

Shimmergloom
04-07-2012, 05:02
I could even use some regular orcs...

I think we're having 4 rounds too.

Nymie_the_Pooh
04-07-2012, 06:06
With only four rounds I'd load up on the magic and war machines then go for points denial if building for the sole purpose of winning at 1250. Infantry doesn't have much affect on the first two turns of the game compared to the rest of the game. A tarpit unit might not earn you much in the way of victory points, but any tarpit that can't survive through turn four isn't a real tarpit unit and if it manages to hold for the whole game then they aren't giving up any VPs. The game you are describing sounds like it could be fun, but it's a completely different animal from the 2K+ full six turn game so requires a different mindset. I think that 20 NGs with hw/shield combo is just giving away points. They can't do anything aside from possibly getting into something's flank and even then won't contribute much. 20 or 25 is fine if they are a delivery unit for getting fanatics out where you want them, but I wouldn't depend on 20NG to do anything on their own. In that case, bows are probably the better option as it gives them more flexibility and they still do just as much damage if you get the opportunity to charge them into something's flank.

EvanDynamic
04-07-2012, 06:29
Sorry it took this long to get back to you with the results of your list.

In a word, eagles.

I was playing a High Elf army that was combat-centered with a unit each of spearmen, sword masters and Sea Guard as well as a token unit of archers and two eagles.

We both more-or-less deployed facing one another in the center. I deployed the trolls in 3 units of 2 rather than 1 of six. I wanted to have something to control traffic.

I rolled first turn and basically just marched everything forward. One troll pair failed stupidity and my goblin vault got held up. It was either this turn or the next that Foot of Gork stomped the archers to two models and took ranks off of the Sea Guard. If I ever have 5 power dice and Foot of Gork, I have trouble seeing a reason to cast anything but boosted Foot. I know they exist but I rarely see them.

Anyway, he used his turn to not wound my trolls with his archers and moved forward to leave me with above average charge ranges. He also maneuvered the eagles onto the flanks.

Turn 2 I had two troll units go stupid and narrowly avoid march-blocking my black orcs (opposite his Sea Guard). As the charges were impossibly long I marched right up into his face. Trolls covered the corners of my units' flanks from eagle interference. Magic was ineffective.

One eagle was able to squeeze through and sat between and overlapping both the savages and the black orcs. I lost a few savages to Flames of Kadon (sp?).

Turn 3 I had my savages fail Animosity and squabble. They had to charge the eagle which wheeled me at right angles to the battleline. From here on the game was dominated by my trolls mis-directing everyone to both army's disadvantage.

I blocked his Swordmasters from a flank charge into my now exposed Savages with one of the troll pairs. The trolls on the other flank were stupid but still managed to block up his spearmen. I charged the Black Orcs into the Seaguard and the last troll pair into the flank of the eagle in hopes of an overrun into the Swordmasters. The Savages, now re-directed by the eagle, would have to overrun and stop short at the back of my black orcs anyway. If the troll overran first past them into the Swordmasters great, I could hold them off my Savages, if they couldn't overrun out of the way then it was the same result : the savages would be facing into the back end of a friendly unit. Well, they didn't make it and blocked the Savages.

On his turn he had two trolls in front of the Swordmasters. This meant he couldn't move the unit. He could only charge one troll and hit the other. Since the troll pair blocking my savages couldn't close the door without landing atop the savages, his charge was... unique. I looked at it as a failed charge since no amount of finagling could help. He regarded such a rule interpretation as impossible since it effectively made it impossible for his Swordmasters, my trolls, and my Savages from moving for the rest of the game as they were in a tangled knot, each having stopped one inch from the other. We played through and resolved his charge as a combat. The trolls held the first turn. In the other combat, the black orcs took another loss but the Seaguard unit was shrinking faster than the black orcs (his spearmen still delayed by my stupidity troll).

In the next turn (4), since he didn't kill my trolls that were in combat in the funky charge by the Swordmasters, it meant I couldn't reform to face that combat and get out from under my other trolls that were blocking me with the 1" rule. So I couldn't turn to face the Swordmasters. So I charged that troll out of the way of my Savages and into his Swordmasters (which was now possible due to the Swordmaster's combat reform). The other trolls charged into the flank of his remaining Seaguard. In combat his Swordsmen killed one troll unit but not the other that had just charged.

More of the same for the rest of the game. I wiped out the Seaguard but not his Prince. So the Spearmen were able to flank charge and wipe out my black orcs. His Swordsmen hacked through troll after troll eventually leaving combat on turn 6. Rather than charge my savages into combat late in the game, I reformed to give my shaman LOS to try to snipe some Victory Points to no avail(the goblin vault was hopelessly delayed initially and the characters were never able to fall back to join them).

In the end I think he won by something like 700/800 points.

Lessons learned:

Although you can use leadership to prevent Frenzy from drawing Savages into ill-advised combats, Animosity on the other hand can draw them in. If there is a re-director available (eagles) then you might need your own unit to screen the Savages by making the charge impossible. Even just a Fanatic would suffice.

Deploy into the goblin vault from the get-go. It doesn't matter if you think you need your general on the leading edge of the deployment zone to be able to reach along the battle line to cover the troll's stupidity rolls. Or if you want your characters to avoid Animosity by joining Black Orcs. Just use the goblin vault as a turret from which to cast and shoot.

An Orc army based on combat that cannot deal with re-directors cannot win favorable charges and winnable combats. If the enemy re-directors cannot be controlled, a combat army is in immediate danger of losing the game. In the face of this, if one unit is re-directed, have the other units wait until it is free. For instance, rather than charging with my Black Orcs after seeing my Savages Squabble charge, I could have possibly moved them out of the way or used Hand of Gork to clear the path for the Savage's inevitable overrun. If re-directed, re-evaluate your battle plan and the situation you're in. Consider how it looks to the other army and what the they will try to do to exploit it.

I'm not sure what the take away lesson is regarding the trolls. Without deploying them alongside the savages, the Swordmasters would have been able to charge into the flank of the Savages immediately after the Savages squabbled. In turn 3, this could have put him well on track to tabling my entire army. They did get in the way, but better stalemate that way than immediately crumble.

Conclusion: I need an answer for Great Eagles. I'm thinking snotling pump wagons may be the most economical, reliable, and effective counter to them, especially with Outriggas. Spearchukka's are too unreliable, the Doomdiver is marginally more reliable for this task but it is overkill when it could be routing elite cavalry in the early game. It is also more expensive than the Eagles so it is a point devaluation. Our magic ranges are a bit low to reach out and grab an eagle and it too is a costly investment in shamans to get the necessary spells and then use their power dice on 50 point Eagles.

Any other suggests on how I can counter Great Eagles, especially at 1500 points?

Nymie_the_Pooh
04-07-2012, 07:36
Trolls are a bit of a gamble. The only things you can do is keep them near the general and BSB, and they can still mess things up. They are harder to thin out than a unit of squigs however and they will tear face in melee.

You have the right idea for the eagle. Chariots, cavalry, war machines, magic, or even small arms fire can do the trick. They are only T4 with 3W and no save. Think about how easy it is to take out three Orc Boys with no saves. That's what it would take to remove each eagle. The trouble with the pump wagons is that they don't move all that fast on average. Their speed is anywhere from 3"-18" with an average move of 10.5" if you pump it harder which is really needed to get it out there. It's not going to catch that eagle or any fast cavalry that is likely to be used in a similar manner without a sail and then you are looking at an increased chance of it going in a random direction (4"-24" with average 14"). I think pump wagons are fun and characterful. They can be great fire magnets when used in pairs or a group of four running up one flank as even people that see them in use from time to time don't know exactly what to expect from them. Then again, they are also only T4 with 3W with a 6+ save so are pretty close to being just as vulnerable as the Great Eagle individually. If you feel you need an answer to heavily armoured knights or something similar then they can work nicely there if you can get them into the knights, but trolls will be more dependable in getting to those knights when you want to make contact with the knights on a particular turn which should tell you something. The pump wagon could be a nice answer to the eagle if you buy the sail and pump it, but it's a gamble compared to a unit of wolf riders or something similar especially if you are just looking at taking the one. That said, a unit of four driving down one flank is a scary proposition for many armies, especially if they have war machines, but those four will see a lot of concentrated fire. Then again, if they focus on the pump wagons then you are more likely to face them in melee with no losses from your other units. A unit of twenty archers may bring one down, but they would have to dedicate a unit to each or a warmachine to each as the pump wagons get spaced out as they move across the table.

Again, I would take a minimum of two if you plan to take pump wagons because if they become targets it is pretty easy for them to fall to shooting. Three or four is better as they have to dedicate all their shooting to them unless a good chunk of their army is high strength shooting if they don't want to take impact hits from at least two pump wagons. They can careen out of control which is more likely to happen the harder they are pushed, but at least they don't have to deal with animosity.

Pretty much any unit you would use for cleaning up after melee combats (ie: you win combat but want to reform to face a juicier target or can't catch the unit that lost so use a smaller unit to deal with the broken one) would work against the eagle. Just think, "What options do I have that possess the mobility or range to kill three Orc Boys with no armour that are not in guaranteed charge range?" and you should find a solution that fits your play style. You may want to extend this to a tool for dealing with light cavalry in general as many armies use light cavalry in a similar manner.

Yowzo
04-07-2012, 08:04
Any other suggests on how I can counter Great Eagles, especially at 1500 points?

Vindictive glare. Cheap to cast 3d6 s3 hits.

If you don't run little waagh magic, then something fast of your own. Wolf riders or wolf chariots preferably as they're cheap and even if they don't break the eagle on the charge, his value as redirector is lost.

Trolls are invariably great, but they must be babysitted. I don't think you can fit 3 units of them in a regular ld/bsb bubble.

Shimmergloom
04-07-2012, 14:06
4 rounds means 4 games, not 4 turns.

EvanDynamic
04-07-2012, 18:10
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I think wolf riders are invaluable against things like eagles. I over-looked them. My spider riders tend to panic under shooting in turn 1 or 2. But wolf riders get their 4+ save which should help. Any other tips to keep fast cav from panicking due to shooting losses?

Vindictive glare is a good option in most games but at 1500 points I'm not sure the Little Waaagh is as powerful since I'll have fewer units, and thus fewer opportunities to benefit from hexes and augments. And I did just barely got all 3 troll pairs into into my bubbles. It was a battle line of Troll, 6 wide savages with Gen & BSB on right corner, Troll, 7 wide black orcs, and trolls. The trolls were in a single-file pair to minimize frontage while still getting max supporting attacks. Being a longer troll unit meant that their rear corner stayed in the bubble range longer after their faster movement carries them ahead. My Stupidity rolls were mostly on re-rolled on the General's Ld but I simply whiffed a few of the rolls even so.

Your analysis of the wagons is spot on I think. I always Pump Harder with an Outrigga. While it is random and thus not 100% reliable, being able to charge in any direction makes up for it. I find that eagles thrive by getting outside charge arcs more than anything so the any direction charge is really the winning trait. And opponents are puzzled by wagons like you said. They're doing their job as a deterrent if the opponent tip-toes around them. I think we as the controlling player focus on 'what if they roll low' whereas our opponents focus on 'what if they roll high.' Therefore we under-estimate them and the opponent over-estimates them. The opponent's opinion of them is what really matters though. If it the opponent's eyes, if he elevates them to a higher status above our other more expensive/more powerful units, then he has more or less upgraded them as they are having an increased impact on the battle.

I agree that the statline of the eagle appears vulnerable. But in reality when we look at the units in our army that have the range/mobility to reliably attack them, most are at Str 3 making T4 respectable. Our archers have shortish ranges with BS 3 shots at Str 3. This usually means moving your unit to get into long range so starting at 6's to hit if there is no cover and 5's to wound, which is, the proverbian long shot (with those rolls you would need 54 shots on average to inflict 3 wounds). I think I need to try Spear Chukka's too. Hitting eagles on a base 5 before cover isn't great. But wounding for D3 on 2+ should be good. Ignoring the chance of misfires, it'd take 5 shots on average. People celebrate their cheapness but any points spent on unreliable units seems like too many points to me which is why I've avoided them thus far. How do you factor Chukka's into your battle plans and what do you expect out of them?

Yowzo
05-07-2012, 09:00
Your analysis of the wagons is spot on I think. I always Pump Harder with an Outrigga. While it is random and thus not 100% reliable, being able to charge in any direction makes up for it.

I use a gobbo boss on giant squig for that role. Put him the dragonhelm or enchanted shield and spear and you're looking at a 3+AS random distance that hits with 6xS5 attacks on the charge. It's a 40 pts premium over a pump wagon with outrigga, but worth it (plus it comes from hero allowance, and not rare).

I generally keep it hovering around the warmachines to protect them from flankers and fast things. Also a good target for sneaky stabbin, as it almost always gets a flank charge.

Urgat
09-07-2012, 18:53
Just saw that thread. Common goblins, you run them with shields and bows. If you can put in the BSB with the spider banner, it's great... her... fun.

bigbear bailey
09-07-2012, 23:55
Nets are way to good to even look at reg gobbos imho.

Yowzo
18-07-2012, 13:08
Nets are way to good to even look at reg gobbos imho.

You don't always have the points for nets on smaller units. Nets will buy you over 12 common gobbos with shields.

Also, against S3 and S4, common gobbos with shields are only off by a couple of % points versus NG with nets if you adjust for the nets malfunctioning, a few more bodies could well make the difference there.

Of course, nets also benefit whatever other unit you have on that combat but common gobbos still have their uses.

Malorian
18-07-2012, 17:48
common gobbos still have their uses.

They look great beside my savage orcs with spears on the shelf! :D

Vaughnilla619
18-07-2012, 20:31
I haven't used commin gobs yet but a unit of 50 NG with full command, 2 NG big boss' with GW, nets, and spears ranked 5 wide is a great tar pit. I ran 2 of those on both sides of a 40 savage orc unit ranked 7wide with BSB, and behind that was a unit of 15 orcs with my lvl 4.

So that's NG with stubborn 8 re roll, who will hold up units for a long time, and is actually somewhat okay in combat.

Ppl might not like them 5 wide but they beat a horde of 35 empire free company with halberds in the 2nd round of combat and chased them down.

I really want to see what goblins can do tho.

Vaughnilla619
19-07-2012, 07:15
So i tested out a unit of NG and regular goblins with same point value against a unit of 20 orcs with additional HW. I ran it like 1st round of combat where the orcs got their +1 Strength. I re created the combat 6 times for each goblin unit. Heres what each unit had and how well they stacked up...

44 goblins with full command, shields, and 3 nasty skullkers.
1) 2 gobs die - 4 orcs die
2) 4 gobs - 0 orcs
3) 4 gobs - 2 orcs
4) 4 gobs - 1 orcs
5) 5 gobs - 1 orcs
6) 6 gobs - 1 orc

average... 4 gobs die a round to the orcs 1.5

25 NG with full command, spears, nets, and 2 NG big bosses with GW.
1) 1 NG dies - 7 orcs die
2) 5 NG - 3 orcs
3) 4 NG - 3 orcs
4) 3 NG - 5 orcs
5) 4 NG - 3 orcs
6) 3 NG - 9 orcs

average... 3 NG die a round to the orcs 5


so... in this example there was a lot of wiffing on dice rolls (almost every round for the orcs attacking the gobs) but for the most part i get a good idea of what each unit brings. In the Goblin unit, sure more will die but they will have just a mass of numbers on their side. They dont win combat very much but hopefully the LD6 is enough. In the NG unit with only a sheild was able to die less then the regular gobs while also putting out much more damage. There will be less models on the NG side BUT they have the ability to actually win combats or at least tie.

IMO goblins are better then NG's in the aspect of you wont win combat but you can take loads more and still have 3 skullkers who can take out enemy characters. The smaller a unit gets, the better NG option becomes. The larger a unit becomes then i think the better a goblin unit becomes. I'd say 35 or less then NG's, 45+ then goblins.

shortlegs
21-07-2012, 12:11
I don't get your comparison, nor how you deduced your conclusion from said comparison.

Why did you add the big bosses to the NG unit, when you did not add any regular goblin BB to the goblin unit? And just because your NG unit was smaller in your comparison (because you added the BBs), you somehow deduced that NGs work better in smaller units?

The reason people bring NGs (besides trying to have some fun with fanatics) is the nets. For a blanket price upgrade regardless of the size of the unit, the bigger your unit, the less you pay per model for the net bonus. How does bringing smaller NG units make them better??

Vaughnilla619
23-07-2012, 06:59
Idk. I was tired I guess hahaha :D