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Asher
30-06-2012, 20:42
The 6th edition brought some fundamental changes to special characters. Previously shuned characters are now amongst the greatest heroes of their kind:

Mogul Kamir - Previously the worst SC in the codex now comes with some serious buffs: Instead of being uncontrolable he now grants RR +2 attacks on the charge and delivers 3+D3 attacks himself.

Typhus - A previously medicore character who suffered from being easy to kill gained cockroach like survivability: T5 means he can't be insta-killed by anything below S10 and his FNP works against pretty much every attack. With 4 wounds it will take a while to down him.


Any more notable zeroes that became heroes?

yarrickson
30-06-2012, 20:48
Space Pope. I mean Aun'va. Now his whole units toughness 5 for instant death and when he does die the buffed preferred enemy kicks in letting your fire warriors and suits re-roll their shooting 1s.

Rick Blaine
30-06-2012, 20:53
Typhus also went to Initiative 1 which doesn't do him any favours.

Carlosophy
30-06-2012, 22:22
Ezekiel is much better now No Retreat has gone and he can change his powers. All friendly models within 12" regardless of codex are now Fearless.

Walls
01-07-2012, 00:09
Does Kamir give the unit rage or does just he have it?

RanaldLoec
01-07-2012, 00:19
Does Kamir give the unit rage or does just he have it?

He gives rage and furious charge to his unit.

A full unit of rough riders with lances now puts out 30 st5 in5 ap3 attacks.

Not counting Kamir's

Sadly furious charge still has zero effect on lance armed rough riders.

Radium
01-07-2012, 00:39
All of the phoenix lords. Getting their armour saves pretty much all the time is pretty awesome, they're still pretty expensive, but at least they can put their money where their mouth is now.

superdupermatt
01-07-2012, 01:40
Who the freak is Kamir???

matt_17
01-07-2012, 01:54
Kamir is an IG special character. He follows an Mongolian horse warrior type theme.

khaosmarines
01-07-2012, 01:59
I wasn't very happy with the typhus changes, but i suppose it's an overall buff

ehlijen
01-07-2012, 02:04
Masters of the Forge are better now. They've always suffered for coming with artificer armour but not having access to any invul save. Now he will get to strike use his armour against most things striking before him, have a flamer for overwatch and a plasma pistol + your choice if hand held weapon for (hopefully) precision shooting.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-07-2012, 07:15
I tried out Death Company Tycho earlier today. On the charge he has 6 Str5 I5 attacks that ignore armor, re-roll one failed wound, all while he hides behind a 2+ save, 4++ IV and 5+ FNP. Okay, so he wasn't entirely worthless before, but I'd like to think he makes up for Mephiston going from Hero to Zero. (I don't care what his statline looks like, I'm not sinking a Land Raider's points cost into an AP3 Force Weapon with the intent of assassinating enemy characters, thank you very much.)

Hawkkf
01-07-2012, 07:32
He gives rage and furious charge to his unit.

A full unit of rough riders with lances now puts out 30 st5 in5 ap3 attacks.

Not counting Kamir's

Sadly furious charge still has zero effect on lance armed rough riders.

In total a full Rough Rider squad of ten with Mogul Kamir on the charge has 10 I10 S3 AP- Hammer of Wrath attacks followed by 32+d3 I5 S5 AP3 attacks.
In short I finaly get to use my converted RR model on mechanical steed!

Hashulaman
01-07-2012, 12:09
Epidemius, he was meh. Giving buffs to the nurgle daemons was good, But you could make them but so good. Now, ally him with Tyhpus and a Death Guard army, Dear God you have the Dynamic duo from Hell, I hope your opponent has a lot of Railguns or demolisher cannons. I played such a combo yesterday, Even when Epidemius was taken out, Typhus, by himself when his Terminator unit was wiped out, held off Wyches with a Homunulus, and a Talos all by himself for several comat rounds, finally dying at the 5th turn I think, I never thought I would see Tyhpus of all people be ranked up in the top tier of CSM IC's. I have not tried Ahriman, but I think with the new powers and his special rules about using multiple shooting powers, I think he also got better.

Xandros
01-07-2012, 14:00
Luscious Lucius got a small buff. Note that he specifically has a power sword, but his riposte attacks flat out ignore armour saves. Snikt!

Huron on the other hand, is really weird. Axe and power fist isn't a good combo. Abaddon also, having the awesomest weapons in the Galaxy and just AP3.

Sami
01-07-2012, 14:41
The DE Klaivex, or in particular a Klaivex armed with Demiklaives, as the weapon has a mode which allows him to strike at +2S and AP2 without losing his initiative.

Chem-Dog
03-07-2012, 03:21
Mogul Kamir does suddenly shine quite a bit, which leads one to wonder if he was written with 6th in mind.

Not that he was a true Zero, I'll have to vote for the Humble Primaris Psyker, with a Force Stave and Iron Arm Biomancy Power racks up an impressive Maximum S8. Failing that I'll settle for Endurance and stick him with an attendant squad of Ogryn :evilgrin:

Walls
03-07-2012, 04:39
I tried him the other night. He was absolutely insane. 15 wounds with a unit of 8. He's super, super good now.

Death Company takes the cake for me. I am thinking an all DC army is viable now minus the not being able to get objectives.

Hawkkf
03-07-2012, 06:08
I believe the guard codex was the testing ground for rough ideas when they started looking toward 6th. It had the first true flyer model, usable tank squadrons, and a means of the HQ/chracters interacting directly with other units. I dont think Kamir was a testing ground though. I think Cruddace believed that hunting lances would interact with furious charge and used rage as a balancing tool.

DietDolphin
03-07-2012, 06:33
Are we talking about just characters or are we talking about units that have gone from bad to great too?

If so, I was going to say the Punisher tank is a bit better now (though I'm no expert on guard). With the change to vehicles it can reliably take out light tanks like rhinos, razorbacks and raiders as well as infantry, so its not so much of a one trick pony.

AlphariusOmegon20
03-07-2012, 06:55
Ezekiel is much better now No Retreat has gone and he can change his powers. All friendly models within 12" regardless of codex are now Fearless.

Ezekiel is also only a level 2, unlike every other Chief Librarian in the game, who are Level 3's.

Gonefishing
03-07-2012, 07:14
Space Pope. I mean Aun'va. Now his whole units toughness 5 for instant death and when he does die the buffed preferred enemy kicks in letting your fire warriors and suits re-roll their shooting 1s.

Space pope is still awful, costs 205 points, cant join a unit and only gets a cover save. A normal Ethereal costs 4 x less and stil gives you prefered enemy when he dies / you suicide him.

vladsimpaler
03-07-2012, 07:17
I haven't used them yet; however I feel like Ratlings are going to be a star unit for the guard. 100 points for 10 BS4 sniper rifles? Yes please!

Nubl0
03-07-2012, 14:33
I find my deathmarks are pretty sweet now.

LoreDraconis
03-07-2012, 16:32
I haven't used them yet; however I feel like Ratlings are going to be a star unit for the guard. 100 points for 10 BS4 sniper rifles? Yes please!

My god...thats far better than SM scout snipers. Theyre both toast if you get them to melee, id much rather have the BS4.

I will add my vote to the Master of the Forge, and maybe even techmarines (you know, that entry you glaze over in your codex?) The fact that AP2 is always I1 unless you're a monster, they FINALLY get to hit with their servo-arms instead of evaporating at the sight of a power weapon. Also, servitors can now actually serve their purpose as chump meat-shields with the Look out sir rule, and with Hull points being repairable, the whole Techy stock just went way up!

As a massive Iron Hands fan with a Techmarine fetish, this has my seal of approval.

Fingers
03-07-2012, 16:46
Typhus also went to Initiative 1 which doesn't do him any favours.

but but, he strikes at normal initiative when he charges through cover!!

note he also now can cast 1 spell with his mastery lvl 1, and not activate his FW if he does so.

razormasticator
03-07-2012, 17:11
Mad Doc Grotsnik has been bantered around on the ork side about not being all that bad now that Rage is pretty good.

Walls
03-07-2012, 17:17
Does he have rage though? In the codex it's not rage but his own ability.

razormasticator
03-07-2012, 17:20
Does he have rage though? In the codex it's not rage but his own ability.

hmmm good question.

Gimp
03-07-2012, 17:24
Typhus also went to Initiative 1 which doesn't do him any favours.

Yes but at ap 2 which always helps

Chem-Dog
03-07-2012, 18:33
Thinking on this subject, Gabriel Seth might be a bit of a Sleeper. Depending on how Challenges and his Whirlwind of Gore interact, he could be a stone cold killer in one-on one fights. In non-challenge Melee, his headbutts could potentially wipe out scores of mooks before their Initiative step and he's still the man to call if you need tanks sawed up.

Reinholt
03-07-2012, 23:20
Belial and Blaylock from IA9.

Scoring terminators are absolutely diesel in 6ed and both just got a lot harder to kill.

FerociousBeast
04-07-2012, 03:19
Yeah, storm shield terminators in general are ungodly now. As if they needed it...

And Belial can theoretically take 35 of them. Grey Knight terminators are good too, of course, but typical Deathwing builds will beat typical GK builds now.

sverigesson
04-07-2012, 14:35
Ezekiel is also only a level 2, unlike every other Chief Librarian in the game, who are Level 3's.

Bwahahaha, you didn't read the FAQ, did ya? Poor old Ezekiel is still getting hosed. Mastery level 1, man, mastery level 1. Apparently, Dark Angels are the worst psykers evah.

daboarder
04-07-2012, 14:43
Typhus should stand a good chance of beating everyone but Abbadon and draigo in combat, at T5 he can only be ID'd by S10 so thunder hammers and power fists aren't that bad because he gets a 5+ inv and 5+ FNP against them. He only drops to Abbadon due to weight of attacks and Draigo because of the titan sword. His attacks are S5 poison, wounding most characters on 3+ with a reroll, he can cause all ID attacks and he is AP2.

Carlosophy
04-07-2012, 15:56
Ezekiel is also only a level 2, unlike every other Chief Librarian in the game, who are Level 3's.

How does this work then? Do I swap all 3 of my powers for 2 new ones, or 2 old for 2 new, allowing me to keep Force Barrier?

Johnnya10
04-07-2012, 16:33
This thread has made me very happy. Already have Big T leading my Death Guard, and have decided to invest in some Nurgle Daemon allies when the plastic Plaguebearers appear. Sounds like Epidemus has done ok out of this too! :)

malisteen
04-07-2012, 17:34
The low init of characters like Typhus or Kharn isn't as big a deal as people may at first think. Independent characters that have joined a unit are no longer treated as separate units in close combat - only precision shots and challenges will be able to pick them out. Precision shots can still be shrugged off with 2+ look out sir rolls, and challenges can be covered by champions if you don't want to fight them - though Typhus with his T5, terminator armor, and FNP (only 5+, but counts against power weapons), doesn't have much to fear from most challengers, anyway.

Kaelarr
04-07-2012, 17:40
Drazhar - Talk about Zero to Hero! Massive I, can bounce to where he wants in combat to snipe guys out and his weapons are eaither AP3 +2A or AP2 +2S, stone cold killer!

Dronevil
04-07-2012, 17:52
How does this work then? Do I swap all 3 of my powers for 2 new ones, or 2 old for 2 new, allowing me to keep Force Barrier?

As mentioned above, he's actually only Mastery Level 1 (Wtf!?). You can choose to keep his 3 powers, or swap all 3 for 3 of the new powers. The Mastery Level means he can cast 1 power per turn (and is unable to cast any powers that have a warp charge of 2).

I really hope this is some sort of error.

Dronevil
04-07-2012, 17:54
Yeah, storm shield terminators in general are ungodly now. As if they needed it...

And Belial can theoretically take 35 of them. Grey Knight terminators are good too, of course, but typical Deathwing builds will beat typical GK builds now.


In theroy Belial can take 45 Terminators, but only 30 are scoring.

Agriss
04-07-2012, 18:20
Whilst it's not much:

Bikes now are T5 for instant death , get a 5+ Cover Save just for moving, Land Speeders can move 12" and now fire both weapons , oh , and Artificer Armour just became worth the 15 points i pay for it :D

murgel2006
04-07-2012, 19:30
Bwahahaha, you didn't read the FAQ, did ya? Poor old Ezekiel is still getting hosed. Mastery level 1, man, mastery level 1. Apparently, Dark Angels are the worst psykers evah.

No need for a psysker with the DEATHWING.


Drazhar - Talk about Zero to Hero! Massive I, can bounce to where he wants in combat to snipe guys out and his weapons are eaither AP3 +2A or AP2 +2S, stone cold killer! my Eldar get green with envy


BUT! DA and DE still remain a bunch of sick sadistic bastards... :shifty:
:cool:
only the new codices can change that.

Ronin_eX
04-07-2012, 20:02
No need for a psysker with the DEATHWING.

my Eldar get green with envy


BUT! DA and DE still remain a bunch of sick sadistic bastards... :shifty:
:cool:
only the new codices can change that.

Actually the Deathwing will want to bring a TDA Librarian with Divination-school abilties. The Primaris power in Divination is gold and better than what you can do with a Chaplain, and now that force weapons turn all wounds in to ID attacks he is an awesome assassin (and unlike a Chaplain he is not forced to take a S+2AP4 weapon). I know I'll be bringing along a Divination Librarian in my DW forces since they make an awesome support psyker. I can't wait until we get our new codex and aren't hobbled by the mistakes of our previous one.

As an aside I'm constantly surprised people are blaming the FAQ for our crappy Psykers. Did people forget that before the new edition they blew even more? The FAQs weren't likely to change this since they just translated our rules as they already existed to the new edition. Our psykers only manifest one power per turn, so they are all technically PML1 under the current edition. But now that the game has a proper psychic system rather than letting each book handle it in a different way as happened in the last edition (which led to wildly variable levels of psychic ability from codex to codex), I have no doubt we will see all the Librarian ranks from Lexicanium up to Chief coming back in some form. Keep in mind Chief Librarians in 2nd were all PML4 so currently they are all underpowered and most are only PML3 because of wargear, a basic 2nd Edition Epistolary would sneer at that.

But since they weren't likely to give out free PML the DA got what they already had. Stop blaming the FAQ for this, it changed nothing, our Psykers were already bad in comparison to other Space Marines. So look at the bright side, regardless of relative costs and power, our Librarians improved in this edition and can dump their crappy power set for a proper one that allows them to out-perform our Chaplains on average. They make a great second character for the Deathwing in my mind.

AngryAngel
04-07-2012, 20:13
Listen, we all know the DA libbys are the suck. They got better, only because we can get rid of our crap powers for good ones. Why expect Ezekiel to be anything less then garbage ? He has the bigggest hunk of **** in a power I've seen in awhile, mindworm, which really is just the explanation of how I felt when I first red him, years ago.

His fearless aura his good, but then for me, thats always been his only saving grace.

Latro_
04-07-2012, 20:34
Vehicles now have a WS, so Kharn always hits them on a 2+.

He has 5 attacks at s5, 6 (ex ccw) 7 on the charge.
Furious charge +1s
Gorechild is now a power axe (+1 s), so on the charge he is s7
Gore child also adds extra d6 to pen

So on the charge against a tank he has 7 (s7 + 2d6) attacks which always hit on a 2+, power axe is also ap2 so +1 on the penetration damage roll.

Don't let kharn anywhere near your vehicles. He'll easily wreck a land raider in one round of combat.

nagash66
04-07-2012, 20:57
Tyberos the red wake also got a boost. Terminator troops? Yes please, a choice between ap3 re roll wounds I5 or I1 ap2 str 8 2d6 penetration? Yes please, and his old survival problem is no longer an issue as he has terminator armor and can no longer be picked out.

sverigesson
04-07-2012, 21:24
In theroy Belial can take 45 Terminators, but only 30 are scoring.

Actually, with the double FOC at 2000 points, you can take Belial, 3 interrogator chaplains in Termy armor (or throw in a librarian, even though they still kind of suck), 12 troop units of Termies and 6 elite units of Termies (all with a CML, and one with Belial upgrades), for a total of 94 terminator armored models, all for the low, low price of 4730 points.

sverigesson
04-07-2012, 21:24
Double post.

MagicHat
04-07-2012, 22:32
Tyberos the red wake also got a boost. Terminator troops? Yes please, a choice between ap3 re roll wounds I5 or I1 ap2 str 8 2d6 penetration? Yes please, and his old survival problem is no longer an issue as he has terminator armor and can no longer be picked out.

Isin't he the guy that gives his troops rage when they kill someone?

Droma
04-07-2012, 22:52
Logan Grimnar got better. He was already a beast but he's even better now. All the wolves are even better at taking charges now. "oh you're charging me? Overwatch+counterattack"

Wrath
04-07-2012, 23:02
Typhus also went to Initiative 1 which doesn't do him any favours.

True but with the Force Weapon changes he is going to rip through mult-wound units.

samiens
04-07-2012, 23:16
Its a little iffy due to the force weapon question relating to Typhus still being in the FAQ- personally id go with the rulebook as force has fundamentally changed bit ots a tricky one RAW wise.

Not sure why terminators are suddenly considered so 'must have.' sure, they survive power swords/mauls but were people really losing large numbers to that? AP2 guns still abound and weight if fore has become even greater with rapid firers able to move and shoot at max range- have I missed some other buff?

adreal
04-07-2012, 23:28
Its a little iffy due to the force weapon question relating to Typhus still being in the FAQ- personally id go with the rulebook as force has fundamentally changed bit ots a tricky one RAW wise.

Not sure why terminators are suddenly considered so 'must have.' sure, they survive power swords/mauls but were people really losing large numbers to that? AP2 guns still abound and weight if fore has become even greater with rapid firers able to move and shoot at max range- have I missed some other buff?

Xenos armies can struggle to bring ap2 shooting and combat to bear, so termie's and arti armour is really strong against not marine armies

Dronevil
04-07-2012, 23:36
Actually, with the double FOC at 2000 points, you can take Belial, 3 interrogator chaplains in Termy armor (or throw in a librarian, even though they still kind of suck), 12 troop units of Termies and 6 elite units of Termies (all with a CML, and one with Belial upgrades), for a total of 94 terminator armored models, all for the low, low price of 4730 points.

Ooo, I'd forgotten about the extra FOC. That's almost the entire Deathwing! And to think, I only have ~65.

Ronin_eX
05-07-2012, 02:58
Its a little iffy due to the force weapon question relating to Typhus still being in the FAQ- personally id go with the rulebook as force has fundamentally changed bit ots a tricky one RAW wise.

Not sure why terminators are suddenly considered so 'must have.' sure, they survive power swords/mauls but were people really losing large numbers to that? AP2 guns still abound and weight if fore has become even greater with rapid firers able to move and shoot at max range- have I missed some other buff?

AP2 guns all tend to come with several downsides and are not quite as spammable in most armies as units that can have a full load of power weapons. Those units that can spam AP2/1 tend to have at least a few exploitable weaknesses. Meltas need to get close (and mech got a nerf so that is harder), plasma is either very expensive or both expensive and risky (guard players are going to have a hard decision to make) and most other AP2/1 weapons are just plain expensive (lascannons) and tend to put out low-volumes of firepower. Honestly, most of my terminator deaths were due to stacked close combat units loaded with power weapons because they were easy to spam, easy to get close (due to mech) and usually quite a bit cheaper in terms of damage-to-points ratio.

Few squads can have more than 3-4 special/heavy weapons, a great deal can have power weapons on every single member. Combined with all of the mech-lists this meant that terminators tended no to be great choices because they died as easily as a model that was half their cost.

Terminators still have to worry about ranged combat, but with general power weapons getting a nerf one big source of damage has basically evaporated. So while TH/SS terminators are still glorious all around, they are no longer the only viable version which is great.

Agatheron
05-07-2012, 05:57
Anybody mention Flash Gitz yet? Especially with taking Kaptun Badrukk... those git findas mean that they're ignoring cover with their snazzguns that are AP3 or better 1/2 the time, or 2/3 of the time with the Blasta upgrade. They may be pricey, but damn... that's one hell of a boost.

TheDoctor
05-07-2012, 06:03
Phoenix Lords in general, not having an invul is less of an issue with 2+ armor

Especially Fuegan, put him in the front of a unit, add in a Fortune, and suddenly you have a re-rollable 2+ armor save with feel no pain, eternal warrior, and has the look out rule on a 2+. In combat he dishes out 5 S5 AP2 I7 attacks on the charge.

For added hilarity, have Fuegan man an Aegis Defense Line. That quad autocannon now hits on a 2+, re-rolls failed armor pen, and ignores cover (no jink for you!)

samiens
05-07-2012, 07:20
Maybe its just me but terminators can and do die to massed fire- it doesn't have to be AP2. Admttedly some armies lack rapid fire weapons (which have had a decent buff) but most armies, xenos or otherwise can put enough volume into terminators to bring them down.

blackcherry
05-07-2012, 08:40
Yeah. I can imagine Tau not really having any problem dealing with them now(not that they ever really did).

nagash66
05-07-2012, 09:51
Isin't he the guy that gives his troops rage when they kill someone?

Furious assault and the choice to exchange bolters with CC weapons as standard, and when a squad wins its first CC it gains rage ( his own squad additionaly gains preferred ene

Sir_Turalyon
05-07-2012, 15:08
The Land Speeder Sammael. As a fast skimmer, he gained the jink save and -importantly - ability to fire two weapons on the move at full BS. Not bad for a BS5, Av 14 vehicle with twin linked assault cannon and twin linked heavy bolter.

Iskandar
05-07-2012, 15:16
In theroy Belial can take 45 Terminators, but only 30 are scoring.

In theory, with Allies, Belöl can take 45-60 terminators... all scoring.

samiens
05-07-2012, 16:13
If you're playing a massive game of course!

Dronevil
05-07-2012, 17:49
In theory, with Allies, Belöl can take 45-60 terminators... all scoring.


You can't ally with your own codex though, so they'd have to be scoring terminators from some other codex. But yeah, someone else posted that, with the second FOC at 2000 points, you can get double the amount I said!