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View Full Version : Whats looking like the best 6th ed army?



still-young
01-07-2012, 15:54
I know its probably a bit early, but what are peoples predictions for the best army in 6th edition? Is it still Grey Knights? I havn't managed to get my copy yet, but to me its looking like the 'good guy' armies are better off now, esp. with allies meaning they can cover what weaknesses they had...

ChaplainCharlie
01-07-2012, 15:55
Newcrons! (big surprise as it always seems to be newest codex = best codex)

Azulthar
01-07-2012, 15:59
Blood Angels. Maybe Orks.

still-young
01-07-2012, 16:01
So Grey Knights have finally been vanquished as the top army? does that mean i can now play them without people judging me :L

Sappysid101
01-07-2012, 16:03
Necrons or Draigowing seem strong, tho i expect someone will find some broken allies to win this edition. Fortuned shadowfields and Epidemus plague bearers come to mind.

- Sid

Gaargod
01-07-2012, 16:10
Fortuned shadowfields and Epidemus plague bearers


Urgh, hadn't thought of fortuned shadowfields. That's rather mean. But I think you mean Epidemus + Plague Marines (plague bearers already being the daemon models. Plague Marines become all kinds of wrong with a few Epidemus tallies).


But yeah, overall, Neocrons (sorry for the pun...) look best overall. Gauss is now amazing, Av13 vehicles are still a total pain in general, Warscythes are even more brutal, Night/Doomscythes are annoying as hell flyers and Ghost Arks... Well Ghost Arks are just silly at 4 HP with Jink saves (has anyone else noticed that Monoliths moving 0.1" will get a 5+ jink save for no penalties? Seriously, what is it doing, spinning desperately on the spot?).

ChaplainCharlie
01-07-2012, 16:15
The Monolith is wobbling omniously whilst moving, very slowly, towards you...

Vepr
01-07-2012, 17:18
So Grey Knights have finally been vanquished as the top army? does that mean i can now play them without people judging me :L

As a Nid player it may take me a few editions not to do that, sorry... :p

Soupcat
01-07-2012, 17:59
Fortuned shadowfields probably won't be too good as agaonizers and huskblades are ap3.
Newcrons do see lke a big winner, good fliers, gauss goes back to a bit worse then 4th, and lords have enough tricks that they will win most challenges.
So glad I have been a toaster herder since 3rd :P

Minsc
01-07-2012, 18:20
Blood Angels. Maybe Orks.

Oh please. :rolleyes:

I'll throw in a vote for Necrons as well.

sturguard
01-07-2012, 18:25
Necrons, their codex was strong before the 6th edition update, Deathmarks, Rapid Fire in General, Wraiths, WarScythe- everything got better.

ihavetoomuchminis
01-07-2012, 18:52
Any Power armour codex

Xerkics
01-07-2012, 19:08
Anything with 2+ save

mitsukai
01-07-2012, 19:54
after playing my first game of 6th this afternoon, I`d have to say Blood Angels look pretty good at the moment

Being charged by 10 Death company with chaplin = a world of pain, 10 hits at I10 s4, 53 attacks at I4 str5, with re-rolls to hit and wound. OUCH

mughi3
01-07-2012, 20:58
Bike armies, jump armies, terminator armies and fliers, everything else will struggle-

Arador
01-07-2012, 21:42
My money's on Necrons. They truly are an army without a weakness.

NitrosOkay
01-07-2012, 21:44
Necrons seem to be the best army, nothing hurt them, lots buffed them.

Emissary
01-07-2012, 22:01
I'm still not convinced that Dark Eldar are Eldar for the purposes of Fortune. Fortune requires you to cast it on an Eldar model. People seem to be claiming that you can cast it on Dark Eldar as they are Eldar as well. Well, if you read page 206 of the new 6th edition rulebook at the end of the 1st paragraph for the Dark Eldar it mentions they were once Eldar, but that "In many ways, the Dark City was the birthplace of the race known as the Dark Eldar, the forsaken and corrupt kin of the Eldar." It's clearly stating that the Eldar and Dark Eldar are difference races at this point. In the last paragraph it mentions that "For those in the Imperium, there is little to distinguish between the ships of the Eldar craftworlds, the corsair fleets or the bloodthirsty Dark Eldar." Again, the rulebook is making a distinction between the Eldar and Dark Eldar (while pointing out that they're different but the imperium just sees them as the same thing). GW only uses the word "Eldar" when talking about the models out of the Eldar codex while using "Dark Eldar" when talking about the units in the Dark Eldar codex. Hence when a spell has the requirement that it be cast on an Eldar unit, I think a good case can be made that Dark Eldar are not Eldar (they were once, but no longer, just read the fluff on page 206).

ghoulio
01-07-2012, 22:03
I gotta say Guard have probably shot back up to the top of the list. With lots of super cheap flyers (130pts for a Vendetta? ugh) and the most abundant AA not to mention everything that made them powerful in the last edition they are going to be reigning kings soon enough. Grey Knights are still way at the top with some of the best psychics out there as well as access to the most powerful flyers. I mean, basically any Marine based army (Space Wolves are also very powerful) is golden. Necrons didnt really get buffs per say as their stuff (points costs/rules) just making sense now that the edition they were made for are out (finally understand why a Ghost Ark costs 115pts while a Rhino costs 35pts for example).

Vepr
01-07-2012, 22:04
On paper it is hard to argue against necrons but depending on the build blood angels are looking brutal also.

ghoulio
01-07-2012, 22:09
I'm still not convinced that Dark Eldar are Eldar for the purposes of Fortune. Fortune requires you to cast it on an Eldar model. People seem to be claiming that you can cast it on Dark Eldar as they are Eldar as well. Well, if you read page 206 of the new 6th edition rulebook at the end of the 1st paragraph for the Dark Eldar it mentions they were once Eldar, but that "In many ways, the Dark City was the birthplace of the race known as the Dark Eldar, the forsaken and corrupt kin of the Eldar." It's clearly stating that the Eldar and Dark Eldar are difference races at this point. In the last paragraph it mentions that "For those in the Imperium, there is little to distinguish between the ships of the Eldar craftworlds, the corsair fleets or the bloodthirsty Dark Eldar." Again, the rulebook is making a distinction between the Eldar and Dark Eldar (while pointing out that they're different but the imperium just sees them as the same thing). GW only uses the word "Eldar" when talking about the models out of the Eldar codex while using "Dark Eldar" when talking about the units in the Dark Eldar codex. Hence when a spell has the requirement that it be cast on an Eldar unit, I think a good case can be made that Dark Eldar are not Eldar (they were once, but no longer, just read the fluff on page 206).

That's kind of extreme nit picking isnt it? For battle brothers it says that Independent Characters can join squads, benefit from psychic powers, etc. So...why not just join your Archon to a Seer Council, problem solved. Only hinderance is you cant use a transport...but when you are taking wounds on a 2++ re-rollable save it doesnt really matter.

HalfBlood
01-07-2012, 22:21
Blood Angels and Necrons are pretty strong codices, however I believe that potent combinations between different armies will be deadly. I doubt allies will be allowed in tournies so I vote Crons/Angels

Charax
01-07-2012, 22:26
Definitely Epidemius Plague Marines. While most of the combos mentioned are pretty nasty, this one has a ton of buffs:

Obviously, tally applying to plague marines is nasty

Nurgle bikers. Nurgle bikers joined by a sorcerer w/force weapon. Damn hard to kill, can overwatch with bike weapons, and power fist on the champ & force axe on the sorcerer means a ton of AP2 attacks, on models who will probably survive long enough that low initiative doesn't matter.

Typhus is just a sick puppy. If you can spare the points for both him & Epidemius, you quickly make an opponent panic. If Typhus gets the trait that lets him get +1vp for killing things...

Overall, I don't think any army is as consistently capable of sick combinations as that one. Necrons are pretty bad, especially against tanks and with a bunch of low-AP weapons, but plague marines can quickly build up a tally, and then use it to devastating effect.

Sappysid101
01-07-2012, 22:29
So...why not just join your Archon to a Seer Council, problem solved. Only hinderance is you cant use a transport...but when you are taking wounds on a 2++ re-rollable save it doesnt really matter.

You can even put him at the front so all saves go onto him ;) but yeah +1 to Nurgle combo of tallying cheesey win and Necrons :)

- Sid

kaimarion
01-07-2012, 22:35
Still think it's Guard, seen this for 2000pts:

2x Primaris psykers
4x plasma vets
6x Vendetta
3x 2 Griffons(6 total)
1x Manticore

That army looks like a pain in the **** to play against, perhaps not optimal but an uphill battle for any army list not tailored to play it.

Emissary
01-07-2012, 23:01
That's kind of extreme nit picking isnt it? For battle brothers it says that Independent Characters can join squads, benefit from psychic powers, etc. So...why not just join your Archon to a Seer Council, problem solved. Only hinderance is you cant use a transport...but when you are taking wounds on a 2++ re-rollable save it doesnt really matter.

Just my personality. I like to do things right. Plus the whole leading with the 2+ rerollable ward save hit taker doesnt sound like fun. Plus if you're going to claim that it works for battle brothers then the argument would extend to the tau. I dont see anyone arguing for fortuned battlesuits.

Anyway if gw always uses the term "Eldar" for the codex eldar and "Dark Eldar " for codex dark eldar why the assumption that for one time gw used the term "Eldar"for to apply for both? It just feels like adding something not intended for a powergaming combo to me.

orlando davion
01-07-2012, 23:29
I agree.

Just think about this; as a game and a fun experiance do people really think a 2+ re-rollable invulnerable save was what was intended?

Heck I do not think the eldar codex even has a 3+ invulnerable save in it!

Unless a FAQ overides the codex description game balance would leave me to think the eldar psy powers work as deccribed to make the above impossible.

Edit; forget Eldrad; my craftworld is Alaitoc so I never use him.

Emissary
01-07-2012, 23:34
Instead of risking derailing the intent of this thread, I'm going to put up the Dark Eldar question in the rules section.

Gonefishing
01-07-2012, 23:47
Blood angels - Jump Troops.

Necrons - Only true 6th Codex at the moment.

Guard - Multiple fliers - Air Cav.

Commissar Davis
02-07-2012, 00:03
The shooty armies look as though they will come up trumps this edition.

Imperial Guard and Necrons are probably favourites to be top right now. Tau and Eldar will probably be up dated soon, and CSM are (apparently) not far off being updated. Nids are probably not to far behind GK looking at the FAQs unless I missed something (anyone notice that boneswords were not in the FAQ so still ignore all armour saves). Welcome to the age of be fast, shooty or dead.

Xerkics
02-07-2012, 00:06
I wouldnt compare nids to grey knights with any kind of measure. Nids still have massive problems with striking last when assaulting through cover, flying monstrous creatures crash at a single hit not wound when shot at and outflanking or infiltrating units cant assault. Being a mostly melee army id say Nids are still at the bottom of the pile somewhere. Sure they are more FUN to play now with FMC but i wouldnt go so far as to compare them to GK. NEcrons BA and Guard are still top armies. Space wolves and gey knights i wouldnt discount either.

unknown_lifeform
02-07-2012, 00:27
Another vote for necrons. Grey knights are still strong, although might be hurt by a meta with more shooting armies. And, is it just me, or have massed vendettas just gone from "cheesy" to auto-win button? At least until plentiful AA becomes available.

Commissar Davis
02-07-2012, 00:32
I wouldnt compare nids to grey knights with any kind of measure. Nids still have massively problems with striking last when assaulting through cover, flying monstrous creatures crash at a single hit not wound when shot at and outflanking or infiltrating units cant assault. Being a mostly melee army id say Nids are still at the bottom of the pile somewhere. Sure they are more FUN to play now with FMC but i wouldnt go so far as to compare them to GK. NEcrons BA and Guard are still top armies. Space wolves and gey knights i wouldnt discount either.

Most Tyranids are are beasts, so don't need grenades to assault into cover and fearless has no drawbacks (unless you attack/get attacked by something you cannot hurt, but you can always move the synapse creature away). I wouldn't underestimate what this edition has done to help nids, and would say to look again at the FAQ and the rules.

Xerkics
02-07-2012, 00:34
Most Tyranids are are beasts, so don't need grenades to assault into cover and fearless has no drawbacks (unless you attack/get attacked by something you cannot hurt, but you can always move the synapse creature away). I wouldn't underestimate what this edition has done to help nids, and would say to look again at the FAQ and the rules.

Being beasts doesnt slow you down when moving through cover but it doesnt make you strike at initiative you still go last. And most of Tyranids in fact are NOT beasts. Raveners are not MOST tyranids Raveners are 1 unit.

Sappysid101
02-07-2012, 00:36
Nurgle based csm army with Fateweaver?

- Sid

Commissar Davis
02-07-2012, 00:56
Being beasts doesnt slow you down when moving through cover but it doesnt make you strike at initiative you still go last. And most of Tyranids in fact are NOT beasts. Raveners are not MOST tyranids Raveners are 1 unit.

That looks like one I am going to have another look at. You have a page ref to confirm that beasts and units that move as cavalry don't strike at Int value if they assault in to cover?

RandomThoughts
02-07-2012, 01:18
Edit; forget Eldrad; my craftworld is Alaitoc so I never use him.

I apologize for off-topic in advance, but my craftworld is Sinlaithue, we don't have Eldrad either, but we got a bunch of "Elder Seers" (using Eldrad's codex entry). I mostly stick with one-power seers myself, but if I wanted to, I could justify using the Old Man.

Xerkics
02-07-2012, 01:18
That looks like one I am going to have another look at. You have a page ref to confirm that beasts and units that move as cavalry don't strike at Int value if they assault in to cover?
Beasts PAge 48. You arent slowed down in terms of movement while moving through cover and you have fleet and mtc. But there is nothing there about initiative order . ITs purely movement related. And unless its specified otherwise its still like before. Im a nid player myself so as much as id like it to be so there is nothing in the rules implying that it changes your initiative in any way.

Xerkics
02-07-2012, 01:19
I apologize for off-topic in advance, but my craftworld is Sinlaithue, we don't have Eldrad either, but we got a bunch of "Elder Seers" (using Eldrad's codex entry). I mostly stick with one-power seers myself, but if I wanted to, I could justify using the Old Man.

Its just like Codex Tyranid says about unique Creatures your Seer can still use Eldrads rules and you can call him Grampa Gandalf :-p

fwacho
02-07-2012, 02:01
Bike armies, jump armies, terminator armies and fliers, everything else will struggle-

My ravenwing will finally be halfway competative. Yay!

Kevlar
02-07-2012, 02:20
I think the death guard with epidemus is the dirtiest you can go. T5, 3+ armor then a 3+ FNP? FNP which hardly anything in the game can negate? Oh and the whole army ignores armor saves and wounds on a 2+. Gonna make some Grey Knights cry!

2nd place
02-07-2012, 02:32
I think the death guard with epidemus is the dirtiest you can go. T5, 3+ armor then a 3+ FNP? FNP which hardly anything in the game can negate? Oh and the whole army ignores armor saves and wounds on a 2+. Gonna make some Grey Knights cry!

untill some smart **** figures out that to stop your beautiful deathguard marines doing this all they have to do is flatten epidemius (who only has a 5+ save) personally, boters at the ready...

alot of people seem to be overlooking how nasty elysian drop armies just got with the new flyer rules and the fact they can take all sorts of nast guns to the skys...

Nighthawke
02-07-2012, 02:36
From what me and my friends can gather, Necrons become quite good especially against vehicles,
Orks are good against flyers since who cares if they snapshot its not difference to them shooting normally :P
Termies got a slight boost as now if they get into combat they are very hard to move with lack of ap2 CCW
Also tyranids who gain the rage rule got a boost when out of synapse as they dont have to run after the nearest enemy and also gin 2 attacks from it
And because i play eldar our tanks can now move 42" a turn a i think it was and our jetbikes can move 60" ;)

Oh i also find it weird that FNP isn't classed as a save so you get it against PotW and most other things

Sithlord
02-07-2012, 03:00
damn... huskblades should be AP2 not AP3, that so useless :(

Kevlar
02-07-2012, 03:06
untill some smart **** figures out that to stop your beautiful deathguard marines doing this all they have to do is flatten epidemius (who only has a 5+ save) personally, boters at the ready...


He may just get his own personal land raider.

sturguard
02-07-2012, 03:12
From what I understand you can't transport allies.

Emissary
02-07-2012, 03:58
From what I understand you can't transport allies.

That would be correct.

Nicha11
02-07-2012, 09:24
How are people feeling about Orks in the new ruleset?

xxRavenxx
02-07-2012, 09:32
My personal feeling, is that ignoring allies, etc. Greyknights are even further ahead than before this edition. There really isn't much in the rules that hurts them, while a dozen changes benefit them. I think the gap simply widened.

Memnos
02-07-2012, 09:49
My personal feeling, is that ignoring allies, etc. Greyknights are even further ahead than before this edition. There really isn't much in the rules that hurts them, while a dozen changes benefit them. I think the gap simply widened.

Except against 2+ save armies. Plus, the Flesh Hound list became a whole lot better as they can ignore deep striking in to cover, hit in cover on initiative and get to reroll charge distances due to fleet.

I'm gonna give this edition so far to Necrons, with Sisters hitting 'Most Improved': 4 power fist attacks on the charge, able to strike even if they're removed as casualties with Repentia. Rerollable flamer template spam with Seraphim. Super-cheap Dreadnoughts with a potential 9 attacks on the charge. Units with 8 Rending Heavy Bolters via purchaseable terrain being used by models that grant rending to any weapon they fire. An incredibly inexpensive Living Saint with a 2+ save that keeps coming back, denying secondary victory points. Then there is, of course allies: Psykers granting Seraphim a 4+ save means they now have a rerollable 4+ invulnerable save, or 5+ rerollable that reflects back on the enemy, not to mention being able to take Missionaries as allies in your Imperial Guard force and getting a ton of rerollable attacks with your now-better Ogryn.

Sisters are much improved.

bad dice
02-07-2012, 09:59
How are people feeling about Orks in the new ruleset?

They aren't that great any, more every change hurts the army

Jorgandr
02-07-2012, 10:03
Most Tyranids are are beasts, so don't need grenades to assault into cover and fearless has no drawbacks (unless you attack/get attacked by something you cannot hurt, but you can always move the synapse creature away). I wouldn't underestimate what this edition has done to help nids, and would say to look again at the FAQ and the rules.

What Tyranids are beasts except Raveners?

Memnos
02-07-2012, 10:26
What Tyranids are beasts except Raveners?

Oh my gosh! Raveners ignore terrain. They're going to be awesome in this new edition. :0

Commandojimbob
02-07-2012, 10:39
Necrons for me, although, when we start to see vehicles decline somewhat and the return of good old infantry, Im not so sure - we have tricks and firepower, but hordes can still be tricky.

I fear the return of the Nob Niker lists - they are now straight up T5 and come with a flat 5+ cover save with Jink - in fact - SM biker lists look more viable backed up with the much improved Landspeeders and one of my mates recently got ALOT of bikes.

Latro_
02-07-2012, 12:15
They aren't that great any, more every change hurts the army

Like removal of no retreat, snapfire! orks have LOTS of shots because they are bs2 those shots are cheap ptswise. snap fire is a level bs1 so it hurts high bs armies and armies with low shot counts... orks are laughing.

take battlewaggon for instance, load it with cheap big shootas, you can now got 12" and fire everything etc etc

we need to let the dust settle before all this doom an gloom about assault armies continues.

2nd place
02-07-2012, 12:52
i just read both the chaos codexs and belive it or not you can put epidemius in a land raider, the marines codex states (page 86) that a palaquin on nurgle can go in a raider it just counts as 2 models, however no-where in epidemius's entry does it say he is riding 1 (ok we all know the model is sat on 1) but the rule is not present... thus he only counds as 1 model in a raider

why do I see this happening alot and the raider being parked behind a building out of LoS

Steinhardt
02-07-2012, 13:00
i just read both the chaos codexs and belive it or not you can put epidemius in a land raider, the marines codex states (page 86) that a palaquin on nurgle can go in a raider it just counts as 2 models, however no-where in epidemius's entry does it say he is riding 1 (ok we all know the model is sat on 1) but the rule is not present... thus he only counds as 1 model in a raider

why do I see this happening alot and the raider being parked behind a building out of LoS
Try reading the Allies rules... Then come back and join the discussion.

2nd place
02-07-2012, 13:08
allies have to use there own transports... I missed that bit

Steinhardt
02-07-2012, 13:11
allies have to use there own transports... I missed that bit

He is however an Independent Character, so drop him down with a unit or attach him to some Terminators :D

TheGreatDalmuti
02-07-2012, 13:12
Just put him in a bastion. Put the bastion at the corner of the battlefield. Take a AA gun for things coming for you. Done.

2nd place
02-07-2012, 13:15
the problem here is 110pts is quickly becoming 250+

and if your planning on taking plague marines you really dont have the points to spare

2nd place
02-07-2012, 13:17
but 110pts of hq is becomming 250+

and if your taking plauge marines you just dont have the points to spare

Steinhardt
02-07-2012, 13:21
Well it is 149 for Epi and 3 Nurgling bases. And he can start inside the unit. Just means that, oddly enough, you have a wave of one unit and a wave of 0. Unless I'm missing something rules-wise in the daemon book.

madden
02-07-2012, 13:21
Necrons are top at the moment I'd say. As to orks there shooting is good but if you don't get the charge it will go badly or at least not as well as before.

still-young
02-07-2012, 17:33
So...Tyranids are still the worst?

Alex_H
02-07-2012, 17:44
So...Tyranids are still the worst?

Yep! Adding a pretty bow to a dog **** does not change the fact its still a dog ****.

razormasticator
02-07-2012, 17:45
Necrons for sure...

beerbeard
02-07-2012, 17:53
It's way too early to tell. I think IG got a lot of sneaky boosts, and some formerly useless units may now see the light of day. I'm looking at you, ratlings. I also think IG will benefit a lot from allies, as it is now easy to make up for the shortcomings in assault and force projection while keeping most of the shootiness. Clearly the Vendetta is the flyer that gains the most from the new rules. However, the mech build is not as strong as it was, thankfully. Variety is good.

Otherwise, it seems like the armies with the oldest codices are still the worst, but will become the best when the new one comes out. So what else is new?

bb

Charax
02-07-2012, 18:25
Yep! Adding a pretty bow to a dog **** does not change the fact its still a dog ****.
To be fair, they do have a lot of psychic models, and I'm not exactly looking forward to facing Warp Speed Broodlords, Invisible Hive Tyrants or a Life Leeching Tervigon. they also have to worry a lot less about Synapse - in fact pushing Feed units outside synapse range might be a problem (5 attack/base rippers are another thing I'm not overly looking forward to)

GodlessM
02-07-2012, 19:29
Because of allies there's no such thing as a best army anymore, but if we have to pick one, then Necrons.

Bartali
02-07-2012, 19:32
The FW Elysian list.

grayghost
02-07-2012, 20:06
Necrons, definately. Being able to Glance vehicles to death again and AV 13 transports is a tough nut to crack.

Jacktheripper34
02-07-2012, 20:12
Two retorts to this,

1 fluff has never equaled rules, annoying but true.

2 in the rules section on unit types under eldar jet bikes there is a parenthesis that includes DE and then for the rest of the description they are only called eldar jet bikes, as they are also referred to in the appendix ii. So in the rules, whenever they refer to eldar they appear to be referring to both races.

Just my two cents, needs an FAQ to know for sure

RTB01
02-07-2012, 21:07
I started necrons as an alternative to my dark eldar and orks. Fancied them as a bit of fun. As it turns out they're almost as brutal as my dark eldar... oops... maybe we'll see the playing field level when we see more 6th ed codices?...

Bergen Beerbelly
02-07-2012, 21:20
I say Eldar are going to be the top army of 6th. Re-rollable cover saves due to fortune on their vehicles will make them a bit more survivable than everyone elses. Wraithguard lists just got a major boost with being able to take divination spells. Vibro Cannons are going to seriously hurt everyone's vehicles and aren't too bad vs troops either.

Eldar pathfinders are just awesome now, being able to add true sniping to their already impressive abilities. Swooping Hawks will kill any vehicle they charge and if given the forewarning spell from the divination spell list, can most likely survive long enough to skyleap out of any close combat and come back later to kill more vehicles.

There are lots of things that the new rules help eldar with and I for one see them as being far more powerful than they have been in a long time.

Stormtrooper Clark
02-07-2012, 21:40
Sooo... does that mean I can bring out my Daemonhu- err, Grey Knights without getting dirty looks?

MaliceXR3
02-07-2012, 21:47
The whole allies thing throws some curveballs into this - but if pressed to pick one race in particular from what I've been able to glean thus far, my money would be on Necrons

ihavetoomuchminis
02-07-2012, 22:55
My personal feeling, is that ignoring allies, etc. Greyknights are even further ahead than before this edition. There really isn't much in the rules that hurts them, while a dozen changes benefit them. I think the gap simply widened.

Same applies to every marine codex. The whole book seems written with Space Marines in mind (was it necessary to put PotSM in the rulebook? ATSKNF? Vehicle upgrades wich are only for SM?), and nearly everything that hurts marines is worse (fleet) or has a counterpart (Flying MC's suffering S9 with no save hits when falling) while everything marines have....is better (grenades,rapid fire and terminators come to mind...KRAK grenades (only SM have them) mean they are S6 against MC...one of the few improved thing SM don't have (if we don't take dreadknight into account) with no counterpart. And there are some things that are worse for nearly all armies but marines (FNP...now at 5's, but you can roll it against AP2 and 1. Oh....SM with FNP were suffering much when being shot with AP2 and 1 weapons or power weapons.....now they can ignore it...i'm looking at you, BA and GK paladins (who have 5++ save on top of it)), while for other armies is just worse, because their low save meant that the only save they had was FNP, and now it is on 5's instead of 4's).

-IronWarrior-
02-07-2012, 23:04
Still think it's Guard, seen this for 2000pts:

2x Primaris psykers
4x plasma vets
6x Vendetta
3x 2 Griffons(6 total)
1x Manticore

That army looks like a pain in the **** to play against, perhaps not optimal but an uphill battle for any army list not tailored to play it.

Problem is a lot of people aren't actually reading the missions/scenarios for this edition. Making a straight beat down list won't win you many games. Too easy to hunker down in cover and tar pit meat grinder lists. You NEED to be focusing on taking objectives, hell you can't contest an objective anymore with a transport. It's very difficult to win now unless you build your list strategically.

The strongest lists will have a nice spread of close combat and shooting. I honestly don't see any army being substantially incapable of competing in this edition. It really put the victory opporunity back into the hands of the player who outthinks their opponent, not just some stupid kid who had mom/dad buy him the FOTM army to mop the floor with his opponents.

megatrons2nd
02-07-2012, 23:52
I'm still not convinced that Dark Eldar are Eldar for the purposes of Fortune. Fortune requires you to cast it on an Eldar model. People seem to be claiming that you can cast it on Dark Eldar as they are Eldar as well. Well, if you read page 206 of the new 6th edition rulebook at the end of the 1st paragraph for the Dark Eldar it mentions they were once Eldar, but that "In many ways, the Dark City was the birthplace of the race known as the Dark Eldar, the forsaken and corrupt kin of the Eldar." It's clearly stating that the Eldar and Dark Eldar are difference races at this point. In the last paragraph it mentions that "For those in the Imperium, there is little to distinguish between the ships of the Eldar craftworlds, the corsair fleets or the bloodthirsty Dark Eldar." Again, the rulebook is making a distinction between the Eldar and Dark Eldar (while pointing out that they're different but the imperium just sees them as the same thing). GW only uses the word "Eldar" when talking about the models out of the Eldar codex while using "Dark Eldar" when talking about the units in the Dark Eldar codex. Hence when a spell has the requirement that it be cast on an Eldar unit, I think a good case can be made that Dark Eldar are not Eldar (they were once, but no longer, just read the fluff on page 206).


Two retorts to this,

1 fluff has never equaled rules, annoying but true.

2 in the rules section on unit types under eldar jet bikes there is a parenthesis that includes DE and then for the rest of the description they are only called eldar jet bikes, as they are also referred to in the appendix ii. So in the rules, whenever they refer to eldar they appear to be referring to both races.

Just my two cents, needs an FAQ to know for sure

Vect's ability specifically says that his ability works on both as they are still both Eldar.

shadekiller
03-07-2012, 00:09
I vote Draigo wing since every pally is a character as per the BRB chart. Yep I have 16 precision striking psycannonshots, per unit, each turn. Yep your characters, whoever they are, are pretty much ****ed.
Did I forgot to mention I can look out sir any pally with any other pally, and that you will be striking at ini step 1 if you want to ignore my save i any way in CC with anything but a MC.

ho and i can FNP even if your ap 1,2


Man, really i'm going to play my marines for a while...:P

Vepr
03-07-2012, 00:10
Yep! Adding a pretty bow to a dog **** does not change the fact its still a dog ****.

Worst 5th edition codex I agree with by far but I don't think you can say they are the worst over all. I think 6th was a lateral move for nids. They made some gains but also took some assault nerfs so they are about in the same place. Nids really just need a new dex, new editions and FAQ/Errata are not going to fix the mess that Cruddace created with that codex. Unfortunately nids are probably 3 or more years out on a new dex.

Techpriest
03-07-2012, 00:38
I think a Space Wolves DP list, mixed with Termies and Long Fangs. Add in a Defense Line for The Skyfire ability and one of the best Psyhic Defenses still in the game with strong Powers and access to the new powers. Space Wolves took a minor hit with this addition, losing the viability of Assaulting Melta Bomb Scouts. Space Wolves still have speeders, and some of the best Load Outs for thier Termies. The Tank nerf not so bad when you use Drop Pods for transport and are in your Enemies deployment zone turn one, making the Flier reserves rule work for them.

Fliers coming in from reserves will no be able not be able ot target most of the Drop Pods and models Second turn, and will have ot espose their rear armor making any shots that get through, (Bolters, Storm Bolters, Plasma, just about anything) glancing them to death. Space Wolves also have the ability for a number or Would Allocation tricks in many different units. Along with Bikes and Jump troops that can pack a major hit when they assault. I10 Attacks and then their +2 attacks on the charge. Joined by a Wolf Priest and that will tear up any unit regardless of AP value or Armor Saves. A unit of 10 Gets the 10 I10 attacks, then 40 attacks on top of it.

6th has leveled a lot of the field and Space Wolves can pack a but load of Plasma and Melta in their Troop Choices and a ton of Combi in their WG units. The sheer amount of fire power will take out fliers.

daboarder
03-07-2012, 00:43
To be fair, they do have a lot of psychic models, and I'm not exactly looking forward to facing Warp Speed Broodlords, Invisible Hive Tyrants or a Life Leeching Tervigon. they also have to worry a lot less about Synapse - in fact pushing Feed units outside synapse range might be a problem (5 attack/base rippers are another thing I'm not overly looking forward to)

Your never going to see an Invisible tyrant unless its the swarmlord, they are only mastery 1 therefore can never cast charge 2 powers.

RugbySkin
03-07-2012, 01:20
I have to go with "Anything with the ability to put on Terminator Armor" and Necrons.

Most Improved, I'm gonna have to disagree with the people who've been saying Sisters (Who were quite disgusting beforehand tbh) and say Tau.

At the FLGWS on release day, they were playing 500 point games just to get a feel for the rules. They just WRECKED anything that tried assaulting them that didn't bother killing off a few fire warriors before getting in there. Not knowing how you can use Marker Lights with Snapshots and all makes me not sure how good they'll be, but they're due for a codex any year now. And Profitwise, it'd be a good idea. They need a Jet or 2 and maybe a walker, and there's a ton of metal to weed through....

Razaan
03-07-2012, 02:32
I'm pretty sure I read in the Tau FAQ that you cannot use Markerlights with Snapfiring.

Spell_of_Destruction
03-07-2012, 02:45
Worst 5th edition codex I agree with by far but I don't think you can say they are the worst over all. I think 6th was a lateral move for nids. They made some gains but also took some assault nerfs so they are about in the same place. Nids really just need a new dex, new editions and FAQ/Errata are not going to fix the mess that Cruddace created with that codex. Unfortunately nids are probably 3 or more years out on a new dex.

Maybe GW will admit they made a mess and release v.2 of the current codex rather than a full rework? They did it with Dark Eldar years back although it doesn't appear to fit in with their current policy (although that changes with the wind). Still, it can't be good business to have a poor codex hanging around like a bad smell for so long from so early in its life cycle.

megatrons2nd
03-07-2012, 03:12
I'm pretty sure I read in the Tau FAQ that you cannot use Markerlights with Snapfiring.

It said you can't fire a seeker missile with overwatch.

althathir
03-07-2012, 03:17
Worst 5th edition codex I agree with by far but I don't think you can say they are the worst over all. I think 6th was a lateral move for nids. They made some gains but also took some assault nerfs so they are about in the same place. Nids really just need a new dex, new editions and FAQ/Errata are not going to fix the mess that Cruddace created with that codex. Unfortunately nids are probably 3 or more years out on a new dex.

I doubt it, nids got their 3rd in 2001, their 4th in 2005, and their 5th in jan. of 2010. They seem to be on a 4.5 year cycle, and we're halfway through 2012, I could see chaos, Da, eldar, tau, templars, orks, Nids as reasonable release schedule and if we have 3 next year thats more like a two year wait even if you throw on a vanilla update.


Maybe GW will admit they made a mess and release v.2 of the current codex rather than a full rework? They did it with Dark Eldar years back although it doesn't appear to fit in with their current policy (although that changes with the wind). Still, it can't be good business to have a poor codex hanging around like a bad smell for so long from so early in its life cycle.

I really doubt they would do a v.2, at best they would do a templar/da style update. I think they're afraid of blunting a new book by really updating a fraction. WD releases are possible though they have to increase the quality of the rules for those to be more tempting to people.

Brother Ranz
03-07-2012, 04:03
First, I am happy that my Tau non-tank force is going to be stronger. As for a prediction, Daemons with shooty allied chaos seems obvious, so I will go with that for this thread.

Spell_of_Destruction
03-07-2012, 04:24
I really doubt they would do a v.2, at best they would do a templar/da style update. I think they're afraid of blunting a new book by really updating a fraction. WD releases are possible though they have to increase the quality of the rules for those to be more tempting to people.

It really depends on whether or not the existing book hurts sales of 'Nids. I can't remember too many other books in either system that were so crappy out of the blocks. There is power creep but most new codeces get a few years at mid tier at the very least.

It's not as if a v.2 would upset Tyranid players who are probably frustrated with the current book. I know I would be a little depressed if I was one of them.

What I'm envisaging is really just the current book with a handful of rules changes and some points adjustments.

Reinholt
05-07-2012, 17:28
On the topic of 'nids, GW has left some terrible books hanging out for shockingly long periods of time in the past. On the other hand, hopefully the reboot of the DE teaches them that cool models, decent background, and decent rules = sales, and that if things are selling, it's either the models, background, or the rules that are the problem.

In the case of the nids, they sold some before the new codex, so it's not the models or the background (if anything, the models have improved dramatically with some of the new stuff)... which leaves on culprit.

I would hope they fix the nids. However, I doubt they will.

GenerationTerrorist
05-07-2012, 18:02
Necrons look like being utterly brutal at the moment. I can see flyer/heavy Necron armies beating everything - Indeed, has the Monolith just become the most useful all-round vehicle in the game?

I'm not too sure about my BA army, given the theme. I guess Artificer Armour became extremely useful given the AP3 Power Weapons, though.
Hoping to have my first games this weekend, just 1500pts, so may get more of an indicator of how they will perform over the next 4 years.

Vepr
05-07-2012, 18:14
Yeah it is hard to argue against Necrons at the moment. They do not appear to have any glaring weaknesses. It used to be CC but that is not really a weakness for them anymore. Depending on the build it could even be called a strength lol. Damn it Ward... :wtf: :p

sturguard
05-07-2012, 18:16
I think Nidzilla is once again viable- not saying the best army out there, but certainly big shooty MCs (lots of Dakka) seems to be better than anything else at the moment. I dont think you will see too many normal genestealer units. Paladins, Ork Nobz, and SW have decent gains with WA and terminators/bikes, but the clear winner is Crons. They have no weakness at the moment and I think even moreso than GK are point and click.

Gary wyper
05-07-2012, 18:27
sisters of battle

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

Cthell
05-07-2012, 19:46
Given the new rules for blast weapons, I'd say a 3-manticore guard list could prove a nasty counter to any parking-lot lists that still turn up (even Necrons, since you're taking away the quantum shielding on a 4+) particularly as they can now fire on the move. And if your opponent turns up with a hoard army, that many S10 pie plates will put a real dent in the hoard; even the dreaded epidemius/plague marine combo won't get FNP except for the bikers.

I realise it gives up the anti-air capability of the hydra, but you still have access to both Vendettas and Autocannon squads (combine with "bring it down" for 6 twin-linked shots and you should scare most fliers a little) not to mention fortifications.

Plus, Chimera's are pretty cheap, and up to 5 models can fire overwatch from inside if assaulted, so you won't be sacrificing all your mobility.

razormasticator
05-07-2012, 20:06
Given the new rules for blast weapons, I'd say a 3-manticore guard list could prove a nasty counter to any parking-lot lists that still turn up (even Necrons, since you're taking away the quantum shielding on a 4+) particularly as they can now fire on the move. And if your opponent turns up with a hoard army, that many S10 pie plates will put a real dent in the hoard; even the dreaded epidemius/plague marine combo won't get FNP except for the bikers.

I realise it gives up the anti-air capability of the hydra, but you still have access to both Vendettas and Autocannon squads (combine with "bring it down" for 6 twin-linked shots and you should scare most fliers a little) not to mention fortifications.

Plus, Chimera's are pretty cheap, and up to 5 models can fire overwatch from inside if assaulted, so you won't be sacrificing all your mobility.

Conversely a 2 Manticore and Squadroned Medusa's work the same way.

Barghest
05-07-2012, 20:12
I haven't had much time with the new book... most people who are saying Guard are saying it because of the Valkyrie. Is my Straken/Chenkov horde list doomed?

Vepr
05-07-2012, 20:23
I haven't had much time with the new book... most people who are saying Guard are saying it because of the Valkyrie. Is my Straken/Chenkov horde list doomed?

Is it backed up by Vendettas? :p I am curious to see how guard blobs are going to work now with the ability to assign wounds on 6's etc it is going to get easier to do away with Commisars and Sgts etc.

unknown_lifeform
05-07-2012, 21:55
Your never going to see an Invisible tyrant

No. That's because its invisible :p

Meistro1
05-07-2012, 23:21
Is it backed up by Vendettas? :p I am curious to see how guard blobs are going to work now with the ability to assign wounds on 6's etc it is going to get easier to do away with Commisars and Sgts etc.

I think its going to be a wash with "Look out Sir", Sgts get it on 4+ and iirc Commisars are ICs so get it on 2+.

P.Strike will be much more usefull for rooting out special or heavy weapons imho.

Barghest
06-07-2012, 02:11
Eh, Commissar's aren't ICs. I plan on putting a priest or two in the unit to take P.Strikes, swing Eviscerators and give rerolls. Maybe target saturation will give me some leeway for those 6s.

big squig
06-07-2012, 05:06
Any of the over-the-top matt ward stuff.

owen matthew
06-07-2012, 05:18
I am thinking certain IG and Ork builds will/would be the strongest, but least popular to build and play.

Fieos
06-07-2012, 05:53
I played two games today with my Tau and tabled CSM and DE. Fire warrior and their volume of shots combined with strength 5 to glance down light armor was too much for small elite units to handle, even terminators. Markerlights were just laying waste to anything they lit up. Tau are going to be respected on the table.

Infidel
06-07-2012, 07:13
I'm not sure why Bloodangel is such a big deal.

Fast vehicles is not as good as it used to be.
Vehicles are less survivable.
Non-assault vehicles cannot deliver content as effectively.
FNP received a nerf (granted it works more often now but how often do you get blasted with AP2/1 weapons?)
FC received a huge nerf
You cannot reserve more than half of your army
Meph's sword is only AP3
No access to Divination power


Sure somethings got a bit better - DC being the obvious one, but back then it already kills whatever it is they hit, now they're just slightly better at it.

Personally, I'd say Wolves and Guard are still the top dogs of the edition.
Wolves:

Snapfire makes Grey Hunters even better
Wolfguard teminator squad leaders benefit hugely from the new wound allocation rules.
Cheap divination powers from rune priests
24" 4+ to cancel ANY power psychic defense
Buff to Loganwing style lists due to nerf to PW
Divination + Longfang for rerollable missile - a great ad-hoc AA solution


Guards:

Snapfire and nerf to multi-assault makes guards infantry more durable
Blasts hit a full strength
Access to the best fliers in the game: Vendettas


Whatever made wolves and IG good back then are still good now, and these are buffs on top of two already great armies. Some things needs to be tweaked a bit (unbreakable guard blob no longer exists) but I'm genuinely suprised that no one mentioned these two as their top-dogs.

razormasticator
06-07-2012, 14:40
I am thinking certain IG and Ork builds will/would be the strongest, but least popular to build and play.

Pontificate on which Ork build you think will be strong. In alot of ways Orks got nerfed. They can still be competitive in the right hands. But I can see their glaring weaknesses now more than ever.

DEADMARSH
06-07-2012, 15:02
I started necrons as an alternative to my dark eldar and orks. Fancied them as a bit of fun. As it turns out they're almost as brutal as my dark eldar... oops... maybe we'll see the playing field level when we see more 6th ed codices?...

I feel ya, man. I started Necrons a year and a half ago because I had a really cool idea for adding electronics to a Monolith. Lols.

owen matthew
06-07-2012, 19:21
Pontificate on which Ork build you think will be strong. In alot of ways Orks got nerfed. They can still be competitive in the right hands. But I can see their glaring weaknesses now more than ever.

120 to 180 ork shoota boys as a base is still as tough as it was. Its a devastating list in an all-comer environment, like a tourney, where foreknowledge of the player's builds is not an option. Its just boring and can take quite a while to move if you are not used to it. I am probably not taking my 9 kans anymore, and need some experimenting to find out what to replace them with, but, all in time. the list is about the boys.

EDIT: I am thinking for 1500, BTW. I use 120 shootas with PK nobs at 1500. Then the Kans and a big mek. I will need to change, obviously. This was rolling Gey Knights in 5th.

razormasticator
06-07-2012, 19:51
120 to 180 ork shoota boys as a base is still as tough as it was. Its a devastating list in an all-comer environment, like a tourney, where foreknowledge of the player's builds is not an option. Its just boring and can take quite a while to move if you are not used to it. I am probably not taking my 9 kans anymore, and need some experimenting to find out what to replace them with, but, all in time. the list is about the boys.

EDIT: I am thinking for 1500, BTW. I use 120 shootas with PK nobs at 1500. Then the Kans and a big mek. I will need to change, obviously. This was rolling Gey Knights in 5th.

Hmm interesting. I don't have the patience for that. But I was curious. I have always done pretty well with shoota boys. My shooting is about 50%, maybe a little lower. So I am stoked at the renewed utility in this edition.
But I have always found Shoota boys to be valuable. In fact I wont be leaving home without at least 40 Shoota boys every list.

owen matthew
06-07-2012, 20:23
Just my humble opinion after reading the BRB. I have not played yet. But, it works because its a stat to cost thing, and that did not change...