PDA

View Full Version : 1500 Empire vs. VC - how to defeat VC in 8th?



draccan
03-07-2012, 22:49
Hi

I am playing in a couple of days against VC with my Empire. I am out of touch with both 8th ed. and Warhammer in general. With little time to prepare or read rules.
Any thoughts on how to defeat VC? I am still stuck in the 6th ed. nightmare of defeating them.

List I have so far is:

Warrior Priest, HvyA, SH, Biting blade, General

Warrior Priest, HvyA, SH, Tormentor sword

Battle Wizard, lvl 1, warrior bane sword, Van Horstmans speculum, Warhorse

Battle Wizard, lvl 2, dispel scroll, relic sword

10 Knights of the IC, full cmd

38 halberdiers, full cmd
- detachment 1: 12 xbow
- detachment 2: 8 archers

38 halberdiers, full cmd
- detachment 1: 12 xbow
- detachment 2: 8 archers

Tactical thoughts:
I want to rule the magic phase with dice, dispel his stuff and hopefully get something through myself. Possible level 1 is Light and level 2 is Death or Shadow.
Horde formation and detachments take up a lot of space. Cavalry is far flank support and to take out a mean character. Level 1 wizard is pitted in the cav. unit and has Van Horstmans Speculum and hopefully can challenge an enemy character threat.
The two horde formation halberdiers should be large enough to survive long and get flank support from detachments. Also hatred from Warrior Priests should help some.
Archers and Crossbows are there to take out fliers and attack flanks.
Magic swords are just there to make sure I have a little extra against ethereals!

Weaknesses:
Characters are squishy. Low leadership due to no LD9 general.

What do you guys think? Viable? What do you do against Vampire Counts?

Maoriboy007
04-07-2012, 00:10
A BSB is almost mandatory, turns fear & break tests from a real problem into a minor annoyance.
Hatred will serve you well, so yes at least one WP
Character assassin see some of their best use against Undead armies.
You seem to have the right idea taking magical weapons to take on etherals
With no shooting to worry about its worth looking at mounting your heros for extra protection.
No war machines? again Undead are particularly vulnerable to them.
Multiple attacks are king against undead, maybe change a unit of halberdiers to freeswords?
A lot depends on what your opponant will take? Is he into magic heavy or a blender lord?
Remember fear no longer auto breaks, but you have to take a fear test every combat phase or be reduced to WS 1, which is why a BSB is so handy.
If you can find room for a flaming banner it might help if he brings a mortis engine or crypt horrors

draccan
04-07-2012, 09:32
A BSB is almost mandatory, turns fear & break tests from a real problem into a minor annoyance.
Hatred will serve you well, so yes at least one WP
Character assassin see some of their best use against Undead armies.
You seem to have the right idea taking magical weapons to take on etherals
With no shooting to worry about its worth looking at mounting your heros for extra protection.
No war machines? again Undead are particularly vulnerable to them.
Multiple attacks are king against undead, maybe change a unit of halberdiers to freeswords?
A lot depends on what your opponant will take? Is he into magic heavy or a blender lord?
Remember fear no longer auto breaks, but you have to take a fear test every combat phase or be reduced to WS 1, which is why a BSB is so handy.
If you can find room for a flaming banner it might help if he brings a mortis engine or crypt horrors

Ah good point. I can't do without a BSB for rerolls. That would be suicide.
Now the question comes how to fit him in. Should I sacrifice a Wizard or a WarriorPriest. Is hard as I already maxed out.

You mention warmachines. I was thinking to forego them to fit in more ground troops. Any suggestions as to what to do? Should I give up my one Halbardiers+detachments and go with a cannon, a mortar and a smaller unit of Great Swords?

My opponent will most like be into ground troops, blocks of infantry, some grave guards and possible a shock unit of black knights. I also heard him talk about ethereals. Not sure which or to what extent.

m1acca1551
04-07-2012, 09:54
I'd say no to the mortar, as it's only st2 now and he will simply raise the dead back. A vc strength is reliant on a good magic phase or pure outright violence, at 1500 points though you will find the blender lord far to expensive to fit in. Your fine against ethereal units with the amount of magic weapons being taken, but are you going to be able to shut down his magic phase...

As a vc player people (particulary people new to 8th and vc) fear ethereal and really try and combat it with magic weapons, simple fireballs (magic missiles) are enough to ruin an ethereal units day. I'd advise taking items that boost your magic defense to negate what can end up being a war of attrition that you will lose. At this point level a master necro with a invoc spammer will be enough to create super zombie hordes and you will out numbered and find that the dead come back quicker than you can kill them.

My tw o cents hope it helps :)

draccan
04-07-2012, 10:23
I'd say no to the mortar, as it's only st2 now and he will simply raise the dead back. A vc strength is reliant on a good magic phase or pure outright violence, at 1500 points though you will find the blender lord far to expensive to fit in. Your fine against ethereal units with the amount of magic weapons being taken, but are you going to be able to shut down his magic phase...

As a vc player people (particulary people new to 8th and vc) fear ethereal and really try and combat it with magic weapons, simple fireballs (magic missiles) are enough to ruin an ethereal units day. I'd advise taking items that boost your magic defense to negate what can end up being a war of attrition that you will lose. At this point level a master necro with a invoc spammer will be enough to create super zombie hordes and you will out numbered and find that the dead come back quicker than you can kill them.

My tw o cents hope it helps :)

Also valuable input. I agree with the no mortar approach.
But any ideas what to lose to fit in more magic?

I was thinking yesterday that LIGHT actually had a pretty good starter spell that could hurt ethereals. So I was thinking LIGHT for both mages.

draccan
04-07-2012, 14:53
The challenge as I see it is that these characters cost 363 points (and for a 1500 pts game only 375 may be used for characters):

1 level 2 Wizard
1 level 1 Wizard, Van Horstman's Speculum
1 Warrior Priest, heavy armour, shield
1 Captain, BSB, heavy armour, shield

And that is without a dispel scroll or magic weapons as cited above. So if I am to bring a Captain with BSB it means I need to take something out.

Thoughts??

whatever
04-07-2012, 15:26
Im a V.c. player and at that points level I would be putting a couple of units of ethereal in! Without magic weapons you may struggle. Also you may well be facing a level 4 necro so trying to out magic a V.c army may cause you to become unstuck. A unit of hexwraiths against that list you might find them hard to track down.

draccan
04-07-2012, 15:41
How about this list? It has two cheap magic attacks for the Captain/BSB and the Priest... And now Great Swords with magic banner that gives the unit Flaming attacks. I assume this makes all their attacks magic, right?

Warrior Priest (1#, 74 pts)
1 Warrior Priest, 74 pts (Battle Prayers; General; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield)
1 Tormentor Sword

Captain of the Empire (1#, 94 pts)
1 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Captain of the Empire (Battle Standard Bearer), 94 pts (Hold the Line; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Warrior Bane

Battle Wizard (1#, 105 pts)
1 Battle Wizard, 105 pts (Hand Weapon)
1 Van Horstman's Speculum
1 The Lore of Light

Battle Wizard (1#, 100 pts)
1 Battle Wizard, 100 pts (Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)
1 The Lore of Light

Knightly Orders (12#, 330 pts)
11 Knights of the Inner Circle, 330 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
1 Preceptor (Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
12 Warhorse

State Troops (59#, 424 pts)
38 Halberdiers, 424 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
1 Sergeant (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
10 [Det] Archers (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers)
10 [Det] Crossbowmen (Hand Weapon; Crossbow)

Greatswords (30#, 370 pts)
29 Greatswords, 370 pts (Always Strikes Last; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Stubborn)
1 Count's Champion (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor)
1 Banner of Eternal Flame

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Army Subtype: Empire Army; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters, Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 0 (0 - 375)
Points of Heroes: 373 (0 - 375)
Points of Core: 754 (375 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 370 (0 - 750)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 375)

Total Roster Cost: 1497

D'Haran
04-07-2012, 16:37
At 1500 knowing I was against VC I'd take a lvl 4, WP and a BSB for characters. lvl 4 should get death and you just snipe his necro and vampire and the rest of the game is a walk if you take them out. Also without a lvl 4 you're going to be at a bigger disadvantage when trying to cast or dispel since his lvl 4 against your lvl 2 would act as an extra die every spell which he already didn't need.

Wesser
04-07-2012, 17:37
At 1500 knowing I was against VC I'd take a lvl 4, WP and a BSB for characters. lvl 4 should get death and you just snipe his necro and vampire and the rest of the game is a walk if you take them out. Also without a lvl 4 you're going to be at a bigger disadvantage when trying to cast or dispel since his lvl 4 against your lvl 2 would act as an extra die every spell which he already didn't need.

Death against Vampires is simply beardy. I'd advice against it as it will escalate

m1acca1551
04-07-2012, 18:04
Agreed with the above statement... unless rolling a tourny setting you may find your game over and future games tense and cold.

1 thing to add for the things to look out for... terrorgheist without a cannon of any sort a t6 6w creature than can be healed will simply target your mages wp's. something to consider

draccan
04-07-2012, 18:17
I am always vary about putting all my eggs in one basket. If I succeed with death magic it means I win the game and if I don't there is a big chance I lose. I need to be a bit broader than that.
The idea of the Level 4 is under consideration though.

Wondering where the points for a cannon should come from..?!

m1acca1551
04-07-2012, 18:36
Id lose both sets of archers and have the one set of 10x crossbows, the ranged damage you will infict on vc with tgese units is not going to worry us as we raise them back next turn, a cannon will however make vargulfs, terrorgheists, corspecarts and master necros want to hide...

whatever
04-07-2012, 20:30
Best advice I was ever given is this. Play to your army strengths don't try to counter your opponent just be aware of there strengths. I think against v.c that is so important we have so many builds avaliable in the new book its difficult to judge what army you will be facing.

Build a list that you feel comfortable with and use it for a few games against all opponents and you will be surprised at how effective you become at using it. Im sure better gamers than myself will tell you the basics to a good build.

magic though I would say you need a level 4 and a level 2, at 1500. and then cannon and range support is one of your strengths so worth bearing in mind.

draccan
04-07-2012, 21:11
Best advice I was ever given is this. Play to your army strengths don't try to counter your opponent just be aware of there strengths. I think against v.c that is so important we have so many builds avaliable in the new book its difficult to judge what army you will be facing.

Build a list that you feel comfortable with and use it for a few games against all opponents and you will be surprised at how effective you become at using it. Im sure better gamers than myself will tell you the basics to a good build.

magic though I would say you need a level 4 and a level 2, at 1500. and then cannon and range support is one of your strengths so worth bearing in mind.

I did play 40K since Rogue Trader and WHFB since 3 ed. - last many years on and off. Not much of 7th ed. og only 2 games (with Lizardmen) in 8th. So I am out of touch.

However, a Wizard level 4 and level 2 and a Captain/BSB is 385 points without any equipment. So that's 10 points of character allotment too much. And includes no protection of any kind nor any magic weapons. So did you mean no BSB? That sounds very risky.

Also I am not convinced that trying to shoot skeletons and zombies will avail anything. Aren't most battles in 8th won in close combat? I am thinking Priest powers, Light magic and good Ld combined with limiting his magic is the way to go... Thoughts?

Btw. just read in the new Empire rulebook that WPs only channel and not add to dispel dices. Still their buffs are quite powerful.

Maoriboy007
04-07-2012, 21:21
People always overestimate the raising capability of undead, this is not 7th edition people! Don't get me wrong, it doesn't pay to underestimate it either, but the days of continual single dice IoN are long gone and there arevery real restrictions on IoN.
First each casting will only raise a certain amount of models in any given unit dependant on the level of the caster, if you are worried about raising then focus on dispelling the higher level casters raising. The limited focus on units also means focusing on one unit at a tim thkes the value away from the radius of the spell.
It has a very short range, boosting it makes it significantlymore difficult to cast and likely to fail/miscast, and they have less dice to cast on other spells it also means casters have to be farly close to the action and vulnerable.
Only zombies tend to gain significant numbers anyway, and while they are marginally better they are still fairly awful troops, as long as you dont let your opponant run away with raising, you can tarpit them as well with a cheap unit as thay can with you.
People tend to forget that undead are just as good at falling down as they are at getting up, this is why mass casualties are important, and why a mortar is still viable.
Also CR superiority gains you free wounds and casualties.
The Vampires power is still in thier characters and thier magic, this is mitigated somewhat in the new edition by some better variation in specialty units, but they are still vulnerable in this area.
Agree that its better to play to your armies strengths, but you'll still need cheap magic weapons to handle etherals.
The other way to kill ethereals is CR. They tend to be poor in combat, ranks and standards are the key.
It'lll probably take a couple of tries to get familiar with them, and don't let any losses get you down, once you have a handle on how they work , you'll wonder why they ever worried you so much.

Jack of Blades
04-07-2012, 21:37
It's not 25% of your army that can be characters, it's 25% for lords and 25% for heroes. For characters I'd say a level 4 and BSB are to be included - you can then add your preferences after that. A witch hunter to go after characters (I don't know how good they are at doing so though because I haven't memorised their rules yet but it's what they're supposedly there for), a warrior priest to boost a combat block (especially in conjunction with buffing/debuffing in combat - hatred gets better when your halberdiers are S5 or the enemy grave guard are T2). Destroy his heavy-hitters before they get into combat and then let your blocks grind his down - winning combat decisively will be more vital (say, by combo charging) if facing a ghoul-based rather than skeleton-based army because they can actually fight back at or beyond your level and you want to minimize casualties.

A level 4 wizard, BSB, halberdier core, a cannon, a hellblaster and some relatively fast heavy-hitters to crush his blocks. If you've got points over then take another hellblaster or helstorm battery. If you take three artillery pieces I'd put 5 core knights to guard them, they'll be fast enough to catch up from the rear when the action starts if they're not needed at the back and they'll take out what chaff he tries to take out your war machines with.

If he has a blender lord I'd personally deal with him by buffs or debuffs to him, the lore I'd recommend for that is Shadows because it contains three spells you can debuff him with so even if he manages to stop two you'll have a reserve and they don't need to work in conjunction with each other. If he's got a caster lord but no blender lord then be thankful - he's sank a lot of points into combat stats that'll sit in a weak bunker at the back until something too strong to defeat gets there.

whatever
04-07-2012, 22:17
1500 point lists there isn't going to be a real big nasty vamp lord around there running at 400 points+ But if there is shoot them and its game over!

draccan
04-07-2012, 23:05
This is what I have so far (totally missed the 25% max heroes/lords weren't combined):

1500 Pts - Empire Roster

General of the Empire (1#, 141 pts)
1 General of the Empire, 141 pts (General; Hold the Line; Barding; Hand Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Shield)
1 Warhorse
1 Biting Blade

Warrior Priest (1#, 104 pts)
1 Warrior Priest, 104 pts (Battle Prayers; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield)
1 Warrior Bane
1 Talisman of Endurance

Captain of the Empire (1#, 149 pts)
1 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Captain of the Empire (Battle Standard Bearer), 149 pts (Hold the Line; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Griffon Banner

Wizard Lord (1#, 230 pts)
1 Battle Wizard Lord, 230 pts (Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)
1 Tormentor Sword
1 Dispel Scroll

Knightly Orders (8#, 275 pts)
7 Knights of the Inner Circle, 275 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
1 Preceptor (Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
1 Razor Standard
8 Warhorse

Greatswords (21#, 271 pts)
20 Greatswords, 271 pts (Always Strikes Last; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Stubborn)
1 Count's Champion (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor)
1 Banner of Eternal Flame

State Troops (45#, 330 pts)
34 Halberdiers, 330 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
1 Sergeant (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
10 [Det] Crossbowmen (Hand Weapon; Crossbow)

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Army Subtype: Empire Army; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters, Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 371 (0 - 375)
Points of Heroes: 253 (0 - 375)
Points of Core: 605 (375 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 271 (0 - 750)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 375)

___

I realize I am missing war machines... just can't seem to find the points needed..

I gave up a level 2 Wizard on horse with Horstman's speculum to fit in more stuff.

Maoriboy007
05-07-2012, 01:00
Try and find the points to mount your BSB & give him plate armour, hes one of the most valuable models in your army and vampires have no cannons to pick him out of units.

Moss
05-07-2012, 22:24
Agreed. I would drop the Griffon Banner in favor of giving him some protection (and while you're at it you can give him a cheap magic weapon).

Also, the Banner of Eternal Flame doesn't give the unit magic attacks.

If you're worried about ethereals, you can try giving one of your heroes the Ruby Ring of Ruin. It's a good way of making sure you have at least one magic missile

draccan
05-07-2012, 22:29
1500 Pts - Empire Roster

Arch Lector (2#, 263 pts)
. . 1 Arch Lector, 263 pts (Battle Prayers; General; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 War Altar of Sigmar (Chariot; Large Target; Stubborn; Swiftstride)
. . . . . . 1 The Golden Griffon
. . . . . . . . 1 5. Banishment
. . . . . . 2 Warhorse
. . . . 1 Tormentor Sword

Captain of the Empire (1#, 149 pts)
. . 1 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Captain of the Empire (Battle Standard Bearer), 149 pts (Hold the Line; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
. . . . 1 Griffon Banner

Battle Wizard (1#, 122 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard, 122 pts (Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Warhorse
. . . . 1 Warrior Bane
. . . . 1 Van Horstman's Speculum

Battle Wizard (1#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard, 100 pts (Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)

Knightly Orders (9#, 255 pts)
. . 8 Knights of the Inner Circle, 255 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
. . . . 1 Preceptor (Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
. . . . 9 Warhorse

Greatswords (21#, 261 pts)
. . 20 Greatswords, 261 pts (Always Strikes Last; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Stubborn)
. . . . 1 Count's Champion (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor)

State Troops (48#, 348 pts)
. . 37 Halberdiers, 348 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
. . . . 10 [Det] Crossbowmen (Hand Weapon; Crossbow)

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Army Subtype: Empire Army; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters, Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 263 (0 - 375)
Points of Heroes: 371 (0 - 375)
Points of Core: 603 (375 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 261 (0 - 750)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 375)

Total Roster Cost: 1498

______________

This is my build so far.

I am playing tomorrow evening (1500 pts) and then again on Saturday same opponent (3000 pts, still need to make army list)

Now I am wondering if I should drop the griffon banner and give him some protection and a ruby ring..

draccan
05-07-2012, 22:35
edit: (answered in another thread)

draccan
06-07-2012, 13:28
Any thoughts on the final build?

m1acca1551
08-07-2012, 01:59
Looks fine on paper, lets us know how you go and what your thinking for 3000pts.

draccan
08-07-2012, 13:43
Ok so the two battles against Vampire Counts are over; 1500 pts and 3000 pts.

Let me start by showing my army lists:

1500 Pts - Empire Roster

Arch Lector (2#, 273 pts)
. . 1 Arch Lector, 273 pts (Battle Prayers; General; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 War Altar of Sigmar (Causes Terror; Chariot; Large Target; Stubborn; Swiftstride)
. . . . . . 1 The Golden Griffon
. . . . . . . . 1 5. Banishment
. . . . . . 1 The Horn of Sigismund
. . . . . . 2 Warhorse
. . . . 1 Tormentor Sword

Captain of the Empire (1#, 149 pts)
. . 1 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Captain of the Empire (Battle Standard Bearer), 149 pts (Hold the Line; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
. . . . 1 Griffon Banner

Battle Wizard (1#, 122 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard, 122 pts (Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Warhorse
. . . . 1 Warrior Bane
. . . . 1 Van Horstman's Speculum

Battle Wizard (1#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard, 100 pts (Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)

Knightly Orders (9#, 260 pts)
. . 8 Knights of the Inner Circle, 260 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor)
. . . . 1 Preceptor (Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
. . . . 1 Gleaming Pennant
. . . . 9 Warhorse

Greatswords (21#, 261 pts)
. . 20 Greatswords, 261 pts (Always Strikes Last; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Stubborn)
. . . . 1 Count's Champion (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor)

State Troops (46#, 333 pts)
. . 36 Halberdiers, 333 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
. . . . 9 [Det] Crossbowmen (Hand Weapon; Crossbow)

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Army Subtype: Empire Army; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters, Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 273 (0 - 375)
Points of Heroes: 371 (0 - 375)
Points of Core: 593 (375 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 261 (0 - 750)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 375)

Total Roster Cost: 1498

Created with Army BuilderŽ - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

draccan
08-07-2012, 13:44
and my 3000 pts:

3000 Pts - Empire Roster

Arch Lector (2#, 254 pts)
. . 1 Arch Lector, 254 pts (Battle Prayers; General; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 War Altar of Sigmar (Chariot; Large Target; Stubborn; Swiftstride)
. . . . . . 1 The Golden Griffon
. . . . . . . . 1 5. Banishment
. . . . . . 2 Warhorse

Arch Lector (1#, 223 pts)
. . 1 Arch Lector, 223 pts (Battle Prayers; Barding; Hand Weapon; Shield)
. . . . 1 Warhorse
. . . . 1 Warrior Bane
. . . . 1 Glittering Scales
. . . . 1 The White Cloak of Ulric
. . . . 1 The Other Trickster's Shard

Wizard Lord (1#, 265 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard Lord, 265 pts (Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Tormentor Sword
. . . . 1 Scroll of Shielding
. . . . 1 Talisman of Preservation
. . . . 1 The Lore of Light

Captain of the Empire (1#, 149 pts)
. . 1 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Captain of the Empire (Battle Standard Bearer), 149 pts (Hold the Line; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
. . . . 1 Griffon Banner

Battle Wizard (1#, 127 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard, 127 pts (Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Warhorse
. . . . 1 Shrieking Blade
. . . . 1 Van Horstman's Speculum
. . . . 1 The Lore of Light

Knightly Orders (13#, 390 pts)
. . 12 Knights of the Inner Circle, 390 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor)
. . . . 1 Preceptor (Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armor)
. . . . 1 War Banner
. . . . 13 Warhorse

State Troops (46#, 317 pts)
. . 34 Halberdiers, 317 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
. . . . 11 [Det] Archers (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers)

State Troops (37#, 289 pts)
. . 36 Swordsmen, 289 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 Duellist (Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)

Greatswords (23#, 328 pts)
. . 22 Greatswords, 328 pts (Always Strikes Last; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Stubborn)
. . . . 1 Count's Champion (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor)
. . . . 1 Razor Standard

War Engines (4#, 120 pts)
. . 1 Great Cannon, 120 pts
. . . . 3 Crew (Hand Weapon)

War Engines (2#, 270 pts)
. . 1 Steam Tank, 270 pts (Steam Tank Main Cannon; Steam Tank Charge Rules; SteamTank Steam Gun; Causes Terror; Large Target; Random Movement; Unbreakable)
. . . . 1 Engineer Commander (Hand Weapon; Hochland Long Rifle; Repeater Pistol)

Battle Wizard (1#, 150 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard, 150 pts (Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Dispel Scroll
. . . . 1 Ruby Ring of Ruin
. . . . 1 The Lore of Light

Battle Wizard (1#, 115 pts)
. . 1 Battle Wizard, 115 pts (Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Siverjir's Hex Scroll
. . . . 1 The Lore of Light

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Army Subtype: Empire Army; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters, Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 742 (0 - 750)
Points of Heroes: 541 (0 - 750)
Points of Core: 996 (750 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 448 (0 - 1500)
Points of Rare: 270 (0 - 750)

Total Roster Cost: 2997

Created with Army BuilderŽ - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

draccan
08-07-2012, 13:45
My opponent had this 3000 pts. force:

3000 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster

Vampire Lord (1#, 463 pts)
. . 1 Vampire Lord, 463 pts (General; The Hunger; Vampiric; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Shield; Undead)
. . . . 1 Armour of Destiny
. . . . 1 Flying Horror
. . . . 1 Curse of the Revenant
. . . . 1 The Curse of Undeath
. . . . 1 0. Invocation of Nehek
. . . . 1 1. Vanhel's Dance Macabre
. . . . 1 2. Hellish Vigour
. . . . 1 3. Gaze of Nagash
. . . . 1 4. Raise Dead
. . . . 1 5. Curse Of Years
. . . . 1 6. Wind Of Death

Master Necromancer (3#, 275 pts)
. . 1 Master Necromancer, 275 pts (Master of the Dead; Hand Weapon; Undead)
. . . . 1 Corpse Cart (Chariot; Regenerate; Undead)
. . . . . . 1 Restless Dead (Random Attacks; Regenerate; Undead)

Tomb Banshee (1#, 95 pts)
. . 1 Tomb Banshee, 95 pts (Ghostly Howl; Hand Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Undead)

Vampire (1#, 201 pts)
. . 1 Vampire, 201 pts (Vampiric; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead)
. . . . 1 Rod of Flaming Death
. . . . 1 Forbidden Lore
. . . . 1 Supernatural Horror

Skeleton Warriors (20#, 130 pts)
. . 19 Skeleton Warriors, 130 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)
. . . . 1 Skeleton Champion (Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)

Skeleton Warriors (20#, 130 pts)
. . 19 Skeleton Warriors, 130 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)
. . . . 1 Skeleton Champion (Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)

Crypt Ghouls (10#, 110 pts)
. . 9 Crypt Ghouls, 110 pts (Poisoned Attacks; Undead)
. . . . 1 Crypt Ghast

Dire Wolves (5#, 40 pts)
. . 5 Dire Wolves, 40 pts (Slavering Charge; Undead; Vanguard)

Zombie Horde (20#, 60 pts)
. . 20 Zombies, 60 pts (Always Strikes Last; The Newly Dead; Hand Weapon; Undead)

Zombie Horde (20#, 60 pts)
. . 20 Zombies, 60 pts (Always Strikes Last; The Newly Dead; Hand Weapon; Undead)

Skeleton Warriors (20#, 130 pts)
. . 19 Skeleton Warriors, 130 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)
. . . . 1 Skeleton Champion (Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)

Skeleton Warriors (40#, 245 pts)
. . 29 Skeleton Warriors, 195 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)
. . . . 1 Skeleton Champion (Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 Banner of Swiftness
. . 10 Skeleton Warriors, 50 pts (Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)

Wight King (20#, 409 pts)
. . 1 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Wight King, 120 pts (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Killing Blow; Undead)
. . . . 1 Enchanted Shield
. . . . 1 Dawnstone
. . 18 Grave Guard, 289 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Killing Blow; Undead)
. . . . 1 The Banner of the Barrows
. . . . 1 Seneschal (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield)

Bat Swarm (3#, 105 pts)
. . 3 Bat Swarm, 105 pts (Cloud of Horror; Hover; Undead)

Vampire (1#, 209 pts)
. . 1 Vampire, 209 pts (Vampiric; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Undead)
. . . . 1 Fencer's Blades
. . . . 1 Seed of Rebirth
. . . . 1 Potion of Foolhardiness
. . . . 1 Red Fury

Spirit Host (3#, 135 pts)
. . 3 Spirit Host, 135 pts (Ethereal; Undead)

Varghulf (1#, 175 pts)
. . 1 Varghulf, 175 pts (Vampiric; Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Thunder Stomp; Undead)

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters, Forbid Regiments of Renown; Army Subtype: Vampire Counts Army
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 738 (0 - 750)
Points of Heroes: 625 (0 - 750)
Points of Core: 905 (750 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 529 (0 - 1500)
Points of Rare: 175 (0 - 750)

Total Roster Cost: 2972

draccan
08-07-2012, 13:48
And his 1500 pts:


1500 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster

Skeleton Warriors (18#, 90 pts)
18 Skeleton Warriors, 90 pts (Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)

Zombie Horde (20#, 70 pts)
20 Zombies, 70 pts (Always Strikes Last; The Newly Dead; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Undead)

Skeleton Warriors (20#, 130 pts)
19 Skeleton Warriors, 130 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)
1 Skeleton Champion (Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)

Crypt Ghouls (10#, 100 pts)
10 Crypt Ghouls, 100 pts (Poisoned Attacks; Undead)

Vampire Lord (1#, 375 pts)
1 Vampire Lord, 375 pts (General; The Hunger; Vampiric; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Undead)
1 Armour of Destiny

Wight King (1#, 130 pts)
1 Wight King, 130 pts (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Killing Blow; Undead)
1 Ogre Blade
1 Enchanted Shield

Vampire (1#, 223 pts)
1 Vampire, 223 pts (Always Strikes Last; Vampiric; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Undead)
1 Armour of Silvered Steel
1 Quickblood

Bat Swarm (3#, 105 pts)
3 Bat Swarm, 105 pts (Cloud of Horror; Hover; Undead)

Grave Guard (10#, 140 pts)
9 Grave Guard, 140 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Killing Blow; Undead)
1 Seneschal (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield)

Spirit Host (3#, 135 pts)
3 Spirit Host, 135 pts (Ethereal; Undead)

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters, Forbid Regiments of Renown; Army Subtype: Vampire Counts Army
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 375 (0 - 375)
Points of Heroes: 353 (0 - 375)
Points of Core: 390 (375 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 380 (0 - 750)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 375)

Total Roster Cost: 1498

draccan
08-07-2012, 14:08
So I won both games quite decisively! Admittedly my opponent was yonger, but quite good at Warhammer / games in general og remember more rules than I do most of the time.

The 1500 pts. game was Blood and Glory (gory?) mission. Was very much won by his deployment. Too much fielded on one flank.
But the main thing was that far into the game he put his Vampire Lord too close to knights that charged him. Knights had a Wizard with Hortsman's Speculum and after a couple of combat phases he was toast even with a spirit host helping in the combat.

3000 pts.
This was the big test / the big battle. Scenario was the standard pitched. Played also on Citadel Gameboard, we rolled extra terrain and luckily for me there were several more hills, some obstacles and we also added some small house that we chose to be impassable terrain.
My army was very much centered on four level 4+2+1+1 Light wizards and 2 arch lectors (one on altar = general).
Again my opponent deployed some troops too far on the flank, esp. wolves and Vargulf.
First round was very much devastating, as I got the first round and managed to get a super magic phase and some okay shooting as well. I brought his Vargulf down to 1 wound, killed a Banshee and a corpse cart with a level 3 necro.
My opponent was too hesitant and I brought him down in each magic phase. He only got three spells through I think. He was unlucky with dice and I had six attempts each round to channel an extra dice, which I made good use of. At the same time I had scrolls to protect (one dispel scroll at the right time!). Also he had a miscast that lost his level 1 a level (metal), his necro level 3 died before he got a turn as mentioned, and his other low level vamp was turned into a toad for the rest of the game (happened in second or third turn and couldnt make the 4+ roll to get him back). So magic was on the shoulder of his Lord towards the end.. And I overpowered him there.

Final thoughts:
Arch lectors and priests with hatred (6" range for War Altar) and the prayer of Sigmar that allows rerolls of to wounds rolls combined with four light mages is devastating against Undead. Almost beardy.
My level 4 had Banishment and the War Altar had it as well. With light against Undead you get an extra d6 for damage, so 3d6 Str 4 + 1 for each Light mage is insane. For the Level 4 I had it was often 3d6 str 7 hits and for the bound Banishment in the altar that was 3d6 str 8.
INSANE.
Also I placed my one lector in Knights Unit and the other on war altar to support both my horde regiments. That literally meant I often hit and damaged with most dices I rolled in combat. To repeat myself: INSANE.

There were several things I did find he could have done. He should have directed attacks against my heroes/lords who are not that powerful in close combat, he should have made more of an effort to get forward and engage. Both my flanks were weak and he could have overpowered me there but were too restrained and took too much time. Also his general should have been in the middle of the field in his grave guards to maximize his dominance on the field (range etc.)

After the traumatic 6th edition Vampire Counts which were almost unbeatable against a skilled opponent (not the same I played this weekend, but a super skilled one), I find it nice to see that Vampire Counts CAN be beaten.
The real question for the day is whether or not Warrior Priests and Light magic (against undead) need a nerf!?!?

Thoughs?

Maoriboy007
09-07-2012, 01:32
Your opponant had fairly soft lists, never put your necromancer on a corpse cart, especially against armies with access against war machines. I'm assuming he was limited by models? There were no real heavy hitters, and really without bloodknights a grave guard/black knight horde or monsters you need a Red Fury Lord with a power weapon to gain some casualties, due to the low combat efficiency of the core.
His graveguard unit was too small, if you can't field 20+ you may as well bring more skeletons instead, same goes for the ghouls and even a 1500 point list should have a unit or two of Dire wolves for redirecting.
You should still put your BSB on a warhorse, a 1+ armour save with the dawnstone and a magic weapon will keep him on the field and contributing probably a bit more than the griffon standard (although you might need to jog my memor as to what it does now. Does the speculum still do the same thing and require him to challenge? Cause then your opponant can just accept with a champion and let the vamp smack around core.

*edit* not a critisism BTW, just an observation :)

Moss
09-07-2012, 01:44
Not sure about warrior priests, but Light magic is just fine. I mean, I love the +d6 hits when it comes to trying to wipe out things like hexwraiths/hosts/vargheists, but otherwise it's not any better than against any other army. In other words, the lore attribute is nice, but is by no stretch of the imagination broken or in need of a nerf (in my opinion, at least).

m1acca1551
09-07-2012, 03:33
Congrats on the victories. Your opponents list was weird as it didnt include any of the strengths that vc need or have. Perhaps you could recommend this site if he's not already on it?? Would make your next games far more interesting and tougher. Games at3000 points against vc are never push over games as we can take all of the goodiesxavailable to us.

blender lord, necro master, crypt horror horde etc etc.

well done though, but like i said recommend this site to your friend and your future games will become far more exciting.

Mikael.K
09-07-2012, 09:24
As a VC player, my 1500 point list includes a blender lord, level 2 necro, horde of ghouls, 3 chaff units, 6 crypt horrors and a terrorgheist. Against your army the magic would be a pain, otherwise it should work fine :). Still congrats on the win, you were able to capitalise on the thing that is good vs vampires, lore of light. Seemed to take its toll! :)