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Gwyidion
04-07-2012, 05:24
40k Eldar player here. I like playing armies that have a bit of "we're better than you" arrogance.

Am i crazy to start wood elves? I like the models and the style of army a lot more than High Elves, but i see rumors in the rumor section, people speculating the book will be subsumed into something else... the book is old as hell, and i hear that it is basically the most underpowered book in 8th.

Is it the sort of situation that against an even moderately competent opponent I'd be struggling so far uphill as to make it impossible to get anything but the closest of technical wins? Is it so mono-build required that it isn't worth collecting?

opinions of current WE players would be appreciated.

virokka
04-07-2012, 05:52
well it's not the perfect time as you are right they are very underpowered in 8th.

I would say that GW are never in the practise of reducing the number or army books and subsequently models, past history suggests they go the other way (see 2nd ed 40k angels of death into separate dark angels and blood angels books)

There are some variations in build options but most lists tend to have similar choices with a lv 4 spell weaver prob w/ life being basically mandatory.

The guys over at asrai.org will be able to give good advice they have a solid community over there.

But the most important thing is to ask yourself do you like the army? Are there models you like and will enjoy collecting and painting?

If so jump in because it will never be a good time lets face it, if you wait for a new book (which according to the rumours could be 18 months away or even more) then you will end up getting grief for being a johnny come lately so go now and just enjoy your time with the woodland kin

Frimbleglim
04-07-2012, 06:13
Any ideas of wood elves being combined with another army are purely speculation. A lot of it mine.

The fact is that the wood elf models are some of GWs best and so there is little for them to gain by replacing them and GW never replaces an army book without bringing out new plastics. I recomend buying wood elves and using the high elf rules at present. It's surprising how easy it is to addapt the models to the high elf rules.

Of course that would meen no treekin or treeman but there's nothing to stop you from painting them up and leaving them in a display case.

Abaraxas
04-07-2012, 06:13
If you like the models, i say go for it.

The rules will come to favour you some day.

(my WHFB army is Night Goblins)

Nymie_the_Pooh
04-07-2012, 06:30
They require a playstyle that would never work for some armies in this edition. One thing that seriously nerfed them that I don't think most players that don't play Wood Elves even realize is that nobody much cares about avoiding terrain. When the current Wood Elves book came out they could play around with terrain and add more to the table while ignoring it themselves for the most part. Area terrain was a pain for most other units to move through in the past couple of editions. I'll echo Virokka's suggestion to check out http://www.asrai.org/ if you want to see the way people with more experience with Wood Elves tend to run them.

I'd have to look it up, but I don't think Wood Elves are the oldest army book around. They are the one that many people agree needs a new book the most however. I wouldn't trust rumours that are not close to time of a release of some sort, and possibly even then. I can not tell you how many times I heard that Games Workshop was discontinuing Dark Eldar. This was even coming from my local store owner hearing it from his direct GW supplier during third edition. If they do decide to squat the Wood Elves down the line then you could always run the models as Beastmen or maybe one of the other varieties of Elves. I wouldn't worry about it for now as the edition is likely to still be around for at least a couple more years and the only way you wouldn't be able to run Wood Elves is if they were folded into another army and there isn't much that currently exists for them to comfortably fit in with. If they do then you are out a book which you would be with a new army book anyway.

Balerion
04-07-2012, 07:12
I think it's crazy to start them, but not so much because of their gameplay power level. Rather, the fact that half their range is ugly and ungainly and will almost certainly be replaced by awesome looking plastics is what would keep me from recommending them to someone. Treekin and Treemen are atrocious models. Wild Riders suck too. Eternal Guard are ok, but having a huge ranked unit of metal models feels archaic.

I guess if you stick to the other stuff you'll be alright, but I expect the aforementioned products to be replaced (within 1-2 years) with substitutes that blow them out of the water.

DaemonReign
04-07-2012, 08:18
Balerion brings a good Point here - I Think - and that has to be balanced against what (for example virokka) was saying.
Assuming you give yourself access to the entire range of Wood Elves they're not actually that impossible to play in 8th Ed. It's not the doom&gloom you'll get off of some people. That issue would be more accentuated by also factoring in the more sober reflections of what's likely to be redone (and thus 'Worth waiting for') that Balerion mentions - because some of these models are pretty important to making a 'competative' WE force, or so I gather anyways.

Clearly you feel drawn to WE. So do some soul-searching and estimate your own commitment. Are you prepared to bet high in the hope of sitting there with a fully painted 5k Army in 2 years from now, laughing all the way to the store as the WE book is updated as you'll only need a handfull of 'updates' in order to make your grand army complete? Or is it more of an ambition to get a few thousand pts of something that'll work great 'here-and-now'?

Oogie boogie boss
04-07-2012, 09:34
If you like the models, like the fluff and like the way the army works then you should go for it. Sure they're an old book, and have been made slightly underpowered by the changes in 8th, but by no means are they an unwinnable army.
They may not be able to horde it up or smash armies apart like, say WoC or OnG, but they can be extremely tricky to beat when used well. They do have a very harsh learning curve, and you'll probably lose more games than you win initially, but once you've figured out how to play the irritation game, and how you pick apart the opposition whilst staying out of reach, then you will become very hard to beat.

theJ
04-07-2012, 10:03
Depends a bit on army-size, tbh. Contrary to what you may hear, Wood Elves are actually really really good at lower point ranges(~1k pts), due to not yet hitting max-unit-sizes as well as the lack of "super units".

You've got really shiny core - make use of it, and stay away from any demi-death stars, and you should do fine.

tmarichards
04-07-2012, 12:24
Some of the models are a bit iffy (personally I don't have any problems with any of them but they do divide people), but Glade Guard, Dryads and their character models are all very nice models- and it is absolutely possible to build a very competitive list focused around just the core, characters and a handful of points in rare.

Urgat
04-07-2012, 13:45
Just don't expect them to remain a skirmisher army comes their next book.

Warrior of Chaos
04-07-2012, 16:34
Gwyidion, you may be crazy but I'll give you points for trying. I also had wanted to start woodies but I was still a new player and didn't want to try to learn to play a "gimped" army. I think tons of losses, nice models or not, would start to get old pretty quick. I hope they fix the woodies up with a new book in the near future, but I don't see it happening for a bit. The more popular armies will inevitably get lovin' first. Good luck to you if you choose them. Ultimately, it will be up to you to decide if your desire to play them outweighs any defects in their current design.

Solegga
04-07-2012, 22:31
I love the models and believe that's reason enough to start the new army. Fluff is good too. Knowing that the new book is bound to be released within the next 12-18 months, I say go for it. Can't get any worse than what it all ready is and they are bound to boost them up imho if they want to sell something... ;)

pointyteeth
05-07-2012, 00:23
They do have very nice models and a nice esthetic, which is why I started the army a year or so ago. Lets just say the flame burned out quickly. Once your regular opponents have played you a couple of times, all the sneaky tricks you can pull out are already known. I played about 20 matches and didn't win a single one, I just started to lose by a greater and greater margin. Now this said, the army doesn't fit my usual playstyle. If you like a challenge, this army might be the right fit. And they do look great on the table.

Montegue
05-07-2012, 00:47
Played my first game against Wood Elves today. I won, but his list was pretty burly. And, despite having a flaming cannon that is, to hear things said here, absolute and certain death to anything it shoots, especially something flammable, his Ancient Tree Man got into combat with my Hammerers and nearly decimated them to a man. He had a ton of Dryads and monstrous infantry, a tree man and an Ancient tree man. Also, some archers and a wizard.

HurrDurr
05-07-2012, 08:41
I think if you like the models or the play style there is no reason not to play them, learning all the tricks just to make the game balanced match is very rewarding, when you lose its a lot easier to blame the army and not yourself (though in all my games there has only been one time i have ever blamed my army which is when a horde of 38 dryads fled from 30ish statetroops(around 8 flanking dryads), but the list was kind of a joke to begin with and he made 7/10 5+'s so i was screwed on combat res), above all that I failed the break test by 1. I was having so much fun that game i confused a combat reform his turn with an entire movement phase in my turn which led to the dryads being flanked. Was an overall bad game for me dice wise, if you spend 500 points on two lvl 4's in a 2000 point list, then roll 5, 2, 4, for the winds of magic, things dont look so hot. My only true victory was throwing my 4 dice on dwellers and rolling 3 5's and a 4, dryads will grow back over time but there will only ever be one Balthasar Gelt, or was i should say.

I honestly think by the time you learn all of the tricks, incorporate them PERFECTLY(as can be) in the deployment phase, learn to use them well during the actual game, all while trying different lists(the same list can be a completely different army depending on deployment, something i do not think many armies can say that with as much confidence as Wood Elves)the new book will probably have been released. Take a list with a lot of 8 man dryad squads and max on eagles, then play 10 games, review after each game and you will almost always see an opening where you could have put a redirector/wheel blocking eagle, at least thats how i see it, id probably learn faster if i didnt mess around and joke as much during games. i constantly accuse my brother of cheese if he puts down any warmachines wizards greatswords knights or demis, there just isnt enough time to analyze and learn as much when thats going on.:)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
05-07-2012, 10:13
I too am considering starting wood elves- an army which I feel are a diametric opposite to the orcs and goblins I've been fielding and collecting for the past twelve years.

My plan is to basically buy the battalion 3-4 times, painting the contents of each before beginning the next. I'll also buy whatever character models I happen to like along with some Waywatchers (because I love the current models). Anyway, around the time I complete battalion 3 or 4 I reckon rumors of a Wood Elf army would be around. The best part is that all the stupid core choices will be painted by the time the book comes out so I will be able to focus on the new stuff.

Althwen
05-07-2012, 10:23
Wood Elvces is a great army to play and collect. Due to their current state, however, I'd advise you to only collect them if you alrdy have another Warhammer army so you can switch back and forth between them This will make you appreciate the challenge Wood Elves currently poses and allows you to play a game of Warhammer even if you're momentarily tired of the limited playstyles their current armybook forces you to employ.
Also, don't buy a Treeman yet, since there are strong rumours that a new model is actually done and awaiting release.

(I found a decent way around the ugly Treekin models as I tend to use my three 5th edition Treemen who are now rather tiny compared to a properly sized current edition treeman. eBay is your friend:)

SkawtheFalconer
05-07-2012, 10:44
(I found a decent way around the ugly Treekin models as I tend to use my three 5th edition Treemen who are now rather tiny compared to a properly sized current edition treeman. eBay is your friend:)

Agreed - I own 11 of the 5th Ed Treemen, which I use for Treekin. :) (supplemented with some ugly as sin Finecast equivalents)

I mix it up a bit (there only being two poses available, Durthu not withstanding) by varying the arms and ways in which those arms are attached - greenstuff helped me enormously there. I'm very pleased with the effect.

Incidentally, to the OP - if you enjoy the arrogance of Victory, you might want to look elsewhere. Wood Elves are very hard for a brand new player to pick up at the moment, but do reward perseverance and experience.

Satan
05-07-2012, 11:22
I think it's crazy to start them, but not so much because of their gameplay power level. Rather, the fact that half their range is ugly and ungainly and will almost certainly be replaced by awesome looking plastics is what would keep me from recommending them to someone. Treekin and Treemen are atrocious models. Wild Riders suck too. Eternal Guard are ok, but having a huge ranked unit of metal models feels archaic.

I guess if you stick to the other stuff you'll be alright, but I expect the aforementioned products to be replaced (within 1-2 years) with substitutes that blow them out of the water.

I agree. I also think the rules suck though, and that you simply won't have any fun playing them. If you're a decent player you can outmaneouvre everybody else, but yours is the frailest glass hammer on the table, and it will break against most things, sadly.

TsukeFox
05-07-2012, 14:24
But! When the new Warriors of Chaos book comes out Wood Elves will be the only army with multiple 3+ wards!! (in theory anyway)

Talk about them OP apples!!

thesheriff
06-07-2012, 21:52
I think it can be demoralising picking an army you like the lok of, drop 200+, and then lose ALOT of your early games. While im not saying wood elevs are impossible to play with, combined with your novice beginning, it will prove hard for you to win consistantly or even 25% of the time. Prepare to lose basically.

However, once you hit the learning curve, you will find it easier. The question is; is your love for the range and your persistance in following this idea enough to get you past the initial wave of loss? Or shoudl you start with a differant, mroe competative and forgiving army, and eventually once you grasp the rules better, you should progress to WE (they may even have a new book by then touchwood :D).

Also, how concerned you are with differant aspects of the hobby will motiavte your choice. Ifd your a gamer, Wood elves coudl be a bad chice, as the qualities of the range may be ofset too much by there tricky playstyle (the opposite could be true however, if you value a challenge, or are tactically endowed). But if you are a painter, Wood Elevs IMO are awsome for that.

And finally, simply to annoy Malorian, Glade riders suck :P

thesheriff

ShadyMonkie
06-07-2012, 22:01
Some of things that is hurting WE a bit in 8th

1. No longer breaking rank by chargin side/rear unless you have full 2nd rank by the end of the combat phase.
This hurts WE in combat alot since WE generally run MSU of skirmishing units thus making combat bit more undesirable.
2. Marching with LDship test.
March block became bit harder due to new implementation of leadership test marching.
3. Support rank attacks
This sort of helps our lame eternal guard (?) but eternal guard is still too squishy to make use of this and cost too much to field decent unit IIRC.
4. Magic...
Honestly, I can't comment much of WE magic since i don't have armybook to look at. BUT I think lores from BRB is much better compared to WE's own magic.

This is only from my small experience of playing WE four years ago so take it with pinch of salt.

thesheriff
06-07-2012, 22:07
Some of things that is hurting WE a bit in 8th

1. No longer breaking rank by chargin side/rear unless you have full 2nd rank by the end of the combat phase.



Gotta say that is the least of the Wood Elf book's Issues at the moment;

The general overcosted nature of the entire book
The sodamisation of skirmish rules to prohibit 360 charge.
The horde culture that destroys small unit warfare
Wide frontages to catch maneiuvrable units
Removal of effective march block
Cannon sniping to pick out lone charcters
Treemen being 250pts, so you cant take 2 in 2k (a more minor, personal quibble)

ShadyMonkie
06-07-2012, 22:28
Gotta say that is the least of the Wood Elf book's Issues at the moment;

The general overcosted nature of the entire book
The sodamisation of skirmish rules to prohibit 360 charge.
The horde culture that destroys small unit warfare
Wide frontages to catch maneiuvrable units
Removal of effective march block
Cannon sniping to pick out lone charcters
Treemen being 250pts, so you cant take 2 in 2k (a more minor, personal quibble)
To be fair, i did mention march blocking and horde formation issue on my list. :p
Good point about overcosted nature of the entire book, and the dreaded cost of treeman....
@ op WE army list favors MSU/skirmishers but 8ed rules doesn't favor such warfare. Personally, i can't think of any good list except massive Glade Guard 10man archer formation spammage with magics. Definitely not an army you want if you want some bloody combat, bloody for your opponent especially.

Satan
07-07-2012, 00:34
I think glade riders are OK. Wild riders suck though. And Warhawks.

Played an ETC game vs Warriors yesterday. Ended in a draw. WE can't do any damage whatsoever.

theunwantedbeing
07-07-2012, 00:42
40k Eldar player here. I like playing armies that have a bit of "we're better than you" arrogance.
You want high elves then.


Am i crazy to start wood elves? I like the models and the style of army a lot more than High Elves, but i see rumors in the rumor section, people speculating the book will be subsumed into something else... the book is old as hell, and i hear that it is basically the most underpowered book in 8th.
I'de say you were crazy to play eldar provided you aren't using eldrad.


Is it the sort of situation that against an even moderately competent opponent I'd be struggling so far uphill as to make it impossible to get anything but the closest of technical wins? Is it so mono-build required that it isn't worth collecting?
Crazy would be trying to make a fluffy eternal guard list work(includes eternal guard characters!), with lots of glade riders and waywatchers while relying on nothing but the Athel Loren lore for magic support.

Wood elf archers can do loads of damage.
3+ to hit at upto 15" range after moving upto 5", st4 shots. You can quite literally blow away entire blocks with that sort of firepower if you concentrate it.
Obviously not elite blocks, but fodder stuff that intends to grind you to nothing over many turns, you can shred that.
Dryads still rock, skirmish and no ranks but mental stats.
Treekin work wonders as well, same for treemen.
Wardancers are fragile as anything but can easily do enough damage to remove small units so attacks back isn't the issue.

The army really isn't that bad.
You just don't have the typical deathstar and uber spell abilities everyone else has, so you are stuck at the bottom of the barrel in terms of outright competitiveness for that reason.
As the sure fire way to an easy win in 8th is to make a deathstar and throw around uber spells.

cyberspite
07-07-2012, 01:32
The army isn't that bad, but if you want to be competitive you are pretty much limited to only a small selection of units.

Glade guard, dryads, treekin, treemen and eagles are the stand-out performers, leading to a lot of lists looking very similar. Tactics revolve around shooting, fleeing, picking off chaff units, some more shooting and fleeing, and if all goes to plan a combined charge against a weakened enemy. If not, run avoidance and aim for a points win.

If these sound like your sort of tactics then great, but just be aware that there isn't a whole lot of other competitive options to choose should you want to try different types of lists.

thesheriff
07-07-2012, 08:23
To be fair, i did mention march blocking and horde formation issue on my list. :p
Good point about overcosted nature of the entire book, and the dreaded cost of treeman....
@ op WE army list favors MSU/skirmishers but 8ed rules doesn't favor such warfare. Personally, i can't think of any good list except massive Glade Guard 10man archer formation spammage with magics. Definitely not an army you want if you want some bloody combat, bloody for your opponent especially.

Sorry, I quoted you before you finished your list :)

Why
08-07-2012, 17:31
Wood elves are just in a bad place at the moment.

Pick up another fantasy army first, like Lizardmen or OnG's, these are both great armies that can be competitive and friendly. Then finish your first army to 2500ish points, by then wood elves should have a new book, and will be a much better army.

Lord Cedric
08-07-2012, 17:58
If you like the models a lot and really like their fluff. Then stick with what you like. In my opinion, nothing is harder than trying to finish painting an army with models and fluff that I just don't like. And then trying to play with them afterwards as I now have to stand there and look at them on the table top. For me, it's a bit hard to wrap my head around. But if I like the models and fluff, it makes me that much more determined to practice, concentrate, paint, and play because I have a genuine interest. My imagination expands because when I move my unit of Dryads I imagine a scene much like the attack of the Ents from the LOTR movies and book.

Yes, with Wood Elves there is a steeper learning curve in it's current state. So if it's a challenge you like, then this is definately it. But with what I said above, it will be a fun challenge. Just don't let the challenge change what you like. Change what you like because you want a different challenge.

- Lord Cedric

Mati
09-07-2012, 23:52
You can always play with some house rule tayloring to get the most of your wood elf love

Malorian
10-07-2012, 16:18
And finally, simply to annoy Malorian, Glade riders suck :P

thesheriff

*shakes fist*

We really need to have a game some time...

Antipathy
11-07-2012, 00:47
I wholeheartedly agree with Malorion.

Bring a 1200 pt all comers list against

l3 lifeweaver on eagle with dscroll
bsb on horse with asyendis bane and hoda

4x5 glade riders
2x3 warhawks
2 eagles

You couldn't touch diddly squat, 18/20" move and shoot with no penalties with 26 shots a turn, redirects out the wazoo, healing from lifeweaver, turn 6 combined charge

tmarichards
11-07-2012, 01:17
Unless your opponent:

1. Brings shooting

2. Brings magic missiles

3. Is aware they can charge more than one unit a turn

MOMUS
11-07-2012, 12:59
Unless your opponent:

1. Brings shooting

2. Brings magic missiles

3. Is aware they can charge more than one unit a turn



4. Or plays lizardmen ;)

Jal
11-07-2012, 13:14
I wholeheartedly agree with Malorion.

Bring a 1200 pt all comers list against

l3 lifeweaver on eagle with dscroll
bsb on horse with asyendis bane and hoda

4x5 glade riders
2x3 warhawks
2 eagles

You couldn't touch diddly squat, 18/20" move and shoot with no penalties with 26 shots a turn, redirects out the wazoo, healing from lifeweaver, turn 6 combined charge

I'm going to assume this was a troll post as any non-brain dead opponant will focus fire the small, fragile units 1 at a time and pick up the small win. 26 shots a turn at s3 - good luck killing anything whislt you're mage is pincushioned/magic missiled and your army killed off a unit every magic and shooting phase

malisteen
11-07-2012, 14:17
As with some of the others, I do not recommend wood elves right now. They were hammered by the 8th edition rules pretty hard. The changes to terrain, the changes to skirmishing (which is not only bad now, but also thoroughly unfun to work with), to march blocking, to war machines, to rank breaking, not to mention the horde formation, the killer spells of the core lores...

Almost all of the advantages wood elves used to rely on either don't matter anymore or are actively working against them, and the few things that still work just aren't enough to make a fun, versatile army anymore.

Don't start wood elves. Don't play wood elves. Not until GW fixes them. It's just not worth the misery. If you like the models, paint some of them for display, or to use in a high elf army. But don't try to run wood elves as their own army, and don't waste the time and money collecting them right now. It's an exercise in misery, playing against your own army and against the rules themselves rather than against your opponent. When (and if: remember how long the wait had been before the current wood elf army book) GW gets around to them, they'll likely look nothing like they currently do, anyway.

It's just not worth it.

tmarichards
11-07-2012, 15:14
That's more than a little bit melodramatic Malisteen...

Malorian
11-07-2012, 15:28
Unless your opponent:
1. Brings shooting
2. Brings magic missiles
3. Is aware they can charge more than one unit a turn


4. Or plays lizardmen ;)

1. Glade guard lists are going to out alpha strike pretty much any shooting out there. I have faced enemy shooting many times and it's a simple matter of moving up and shooting them off the board (at which point you can go into hiding since you have enough points for the win).

2. The vast majority of armies don't typically take magic missiles and if they do guess what spell I'm going to throw all my dice at stopping. Worst case scenario I get hit and then regrow. If I'm feeling mean I take the item that lets me reroll dispel dice.

3. Go ahead. Most of the time I'm far enough back that it doesn't matter (hurray for free stand and shoot!) If you come too close I run by you. If I need to flee (even with several units) who cares since I'm fast cav and will rally and move and shoot again.

4. Lizardmen are jerks... If they are skink heavy they are a problem, but if not you focus on them first (they are pretty easy to kill) and then run circles around the rest.


People need to seriously at least try running an all glade guard army before they knock it. In the hands of a skilled player they are VERY deadly and almost impossible to beat. Your biggest fear is not return shooting but rather horde armies that go from board edge to board edge.


P.S. tmarichards I'm still waiting for you to win more games than you lose in a tournament using no slann.

Urgat
11-07-2012, 15:33
1. Glade guard lists are going to out alpha strike pretty much any shooting out there. I have faced enemy shooting many times and it's a simple matter of moving up and shooting them off the board (at which point you can go into hiding since you have enough points for the win).

How'd you deal with my common goblin horde (100 gobs, shields and short bows)? I think I'd outshoot you severely, and that's not taking into account the rest of the army (wolf riders with bows, wolf chariots with bows, doom diver, etc, and the fact I actually can get in melee once the shootout is over) ...

Malorian
11-07-2012, 15:42
How'd you deal with my common goblin horde (100 gobs, shields and short bows)? I think I'd outshoot you severely, and that's not taking into account the rest of the army (wolf riders with bows, wolf chariots with bows, doom diver, etc, and the fact I actually can get in melee once the shootout is over) ...

All the variables aren't there, but basically the 100 gobs have a 22 inch threat range, so at the start of the game I would stay out of that while I take out the wolves and pick away at the chariots.

Doom divers pose a major threat but I may ignore them if magic is going my way (they kill 3 models a turn out of blocks of 10 and then I have regrowth).

The next big question is where is the general. If in a bunker I'm going to hit that thing with everything I have because if I can knock it out then I can go for panic tests on the horde. If not it's a matter of running around the block. Sure it can swift reform and shoot at me, but then you are at -1 for moving and only get the front 2 ranks. 20 shots that hit on 5+ and wound on 4+ with a 6+ save only means 3 dead models which is acceptable.

Once past the main block I can rush the warmachines if I want and dance until the end.


If we are talking about multiple hordes of 100 goblins with bows that go from table edge to table edge then you might as well make it watchtower too while you're making it the perfect counter.

Then again, it should be noted that I have NEVER seen a list like that in tournaments.

Jal
11-07-2012, 15:51
1. Glade guard lists are going to out alpha strike pretty much any shooting out there. I have faced enemy shooting many times and it's a simple matter of moving up and shooting them off the board (at which point you can go into hiding since you have enough points for the win).

2. The vast majority of armies don't typically take magic missiles and if they do guess what spell I'm going to throw all my dice at stopping. Worst case scenario I get hit and then regrow. If I'm feeling mean I take the item that lets me reroll dispel dice.

3. Go ahead. Most of the time I'm far enough back that it doesn't matter (hurray for free stand and shoot!) If you come too close I run by you. If I need to flee (even with several units) who cares since I'm fast cav and will rally and move and shoot again.

4. Lizardmen are jerks... If they are skink heavy they are a problem, but if not you focus on them first (they are pretty easy to kill) and then run circles around the rest.


People need to seriously at least try running an all glade guard army before they knock it. In the hands of a skilled player they are VERY deadly and almost impossible to beat. Your biggest fear is not return shooting but rather horde armies that go from board edge to board edge.


P.S. tmarichards I'm still waiting for you to win more games than you lose in a tournament using no slann.

Think you've missed the point - Tom's response was with regard to the "glade rider/warhawk spam" list the post above his.

Urgat
11-07-2012, 15:56
All the variables aren't there, but basically the 100 gobs have a 22 inch threat range, so at the start of the game I would stay out of that while I take out the wolves and pick away at the chariots.

Doom divers pose a major threat but I may ignore them if magic is going my way (they kill 3 models a turn out of blocks of 10 and then I have regrowth).

The next big question is where is the general. If in a bunker I'm going to hit that thing with everything I have because if I can knock it out then I can go for panic tests on the horde. If not it's a matter of running around the block. Sure it can swift reform and shoot at me, but then you are at -1 for moving and only get the front 2 ranks. 20 shots that hit on 5+ and wound on 4+ with a 6+ save only means 3 dead models which is acceptable.

Once past the main block I can rush the warmachines if I want and dance until the end.


If we are talking about multiple hordes of 100 goblins with bows that go from table edge to table edge then you might as well make it watchtower too while you're making it the perfect counter.

Then again, it should be noted that I have NEVER seen a list like that in tournaments.

Only one such horde, I run it because that's how I see my goblins actually fighting, if I wanted to go cheese, I'd probably go for night goblins, or stop playing all gobs altogether.
Anyway I wouldn't play as you'd describe (well I would try not to at least), I'd stick to one side of the battlefield and sweep from there, so you only got one side to run from, that much at least you couldn't counter. Chariots and wolves would stay on the open flank of the horde. If you're running around, you either have to get dangerously close to being charged (if you want to get out of LoS of the horde), or remain in the horde's LoS, and then it's either you keep at long range and pose little threat to it, or you come close and I go volley shot (it's harder to get out of range of the short bows now that they're 18" and not 12"), and that should wipe out one of your units a turn if they dare try it. If I still can't catch you, I'll reform 20 wide (there's nothing in the list that would make me feel threatened if I only had 5 ranks). The general is in the horde, with the BSB (spider banner - poison shots), and I keep the trolls close to charge whatever would want to engage them in melee (which would be stupid anyway). Not saying it's bulletproof, but considering some of the punishment my goblins have had to deal with up till now, that list of yours isn't really scary in my mind. I'd have to see it work properly to be sure of course, but it's fragile, with a low model count, and you focus on shooting when there's actually not much shooting to speak of. Resurrecting stuff is nice and all, but you got to have minis alive to actually be able to do so... And we're talking low level points, right, not 2500? Because I'm only considering the basic built for a low point game on my side.
And I don't play tourneys, I don't have to conform to whatever philosophy they stick with :p
Ah, yeah, but that being said, we couldn't play, I play scenarios, and your list wouldn't even be able to play a third of them.

Malorian
11-07-2012, 16:03
Think you've missed the point - Tom's response was with regard to the "glade rider/warhawk spam" list the post above his.

No, this is something we argue about often.


Only one such horde. But I wouldn't play as you'd describe, I'd stick to one side of the battlefield and sweep from there, so you only got one side to run from. Chariots and wolves would stay on the open side. If you're running around, you either have to get dangerously close to being charged, or remain in the horde's LoS, and then it's either you keep at long range and pose little threat to it, or you come close and I go volley shot, and that should wipe out one of your units a turn if they dare try it. The general is in the horde, with the BSB (spider banner), and I keep the trolls close to charge whatever would want to engage them in melee (which would be stupid anyway). Not saying it's bulletproof, but considering some of the punishment my goblins have had to deal with up till now, that list of yours isn't really scary. And we're talking low level points, right, not 2500? Because I'm only considering the basic built for a low point game on my side.
And I don't play tourneys, I don't have to conform to whatever philosophy they stick with :p

I think that would be the wrong way to play them. If the horde is on one flank then it's even easier to avoid.

Keeping the general in the unit will mean the big block will have to be avoided completely since I can never hope for you to fail a leadership, at least not with a probability worth the effort. So everything would go into the support units.

How many points are you thinking? Do you have an example list?

tmarichards
11-07-2012, 16:14
The problem with the idea of simply running past people with Glade Riders is that it's very easy to play against. Purely Glade Rider shooting just doesn't kill very much, so all you need to do to wipe it off the board is deploy your main combat units 20-30+ wide and march/charge forwards making sure that the Glade Riders physically cannot fit through the gaps. You very quickly run out of room to hide.

Admittedly, this doesn't occur to many people. I'm always happy when I play against someone with a knight bus and they deploy it 5 wide, it makes it far easier to handle.

Urgat
11-07-2012, 16:17
I changed a couple bits in my post above. I have no lists handy, but that's about my 1500pts list above (I do love half-point upgrades, my common gobs have gone a whole point cheaper since last edition. The horde is about a third of the 1500 pts list). I save a lot of points on hero choices so I can bring lots of bodies on the table. No doubt it'd be easy for you to avoid it, but the rest of my army staying basically a bit behind on its flank, if you want to get anything at all, you would have to step in sooner or later, and you may be fast, but so are my fast units ;) Well of course, I'd try and shoot your eagles with my doodiver, and then you'd get the points for it as it never fails to misfire itself to oblivion :shifty:

Oh, wanted to clarify, I'm not trying to claim mine is bigger than yours, I'm not vain like that, I'm trying to weed out weaknesses in the case I'd have to face a list similar to the one you're describing. Maybe a couple warbosses on wolf with wardsaves or antishooting stuff to hunt down stuff could be handy?

edit: thinking about it, and reading tmarichards post (he's got a hell of a point), I'll amend my first post again (but I'll do it here coz it's getting messy), there's really no melee punch at all in the WE list, why the heck should I keep 5 ranks in the horde? I could safely reform 30 or even 40 wide (nah, not 50, I tend to lose to freak dice and I better not tempt luck). Would be hard to run from that.

Malorian
11-07-2012, 16:36
The problem with the idea of simply running past people with Glade Riders is that it's very easy to play against. Purely Glade Rider shooting just doesn't kill very much, so all you need to do to wipe it off the board is deploy your main combat units 20-30+ wide and march/charge forwards making sure that the Glade Riders physically cannot fit through the gaps. You very quickly run out of room to hide.

Admittedly, this doesn't occur to many people. I'm always happy when I play against someone with a knight bus and they deploy it 5 wide, it makes it far easier to handle.

That's harder to pull off than it seems. If you try doing this with a weaker unit than the glade riders can actually charge and break the unit if you are in a single rank.

The other way around is that shooting losses quickly make gaps (assuming you aren't running units of 100 which I know you don't).

Finally you can break up formations by sacrificing a unit.

The important thing is that once there is a crack the entire thing falls apart.



I changed a couple bits in my post above. I have no lists handy, but that's about my 1500pts list above (I do love half-point upgrades, my common gobs have gone a whole point cheaper since last edition. The horde is about a third of the 1500 pts list). I save a lot of points on hero choices so I can bring lots of bodies on the table. No doubt it'd be easy for you to avoid it, but the rest of my army staying basically a bit behind on its flank, if you want to get anything at all, you would have to step in sooner or later, and you may be fast, but so are my fast units ;) Well of course, I'd try and shoot your eagles with my doodiver, and then you'd get the points for it as it never fails to misfire itself to oblivion :shifty:

edit: thinking about it, and reading tmarichards post (he's got a hell of a point), I'll amend my first post again (but I'll do it here coz it's getting messy), there's really no melee punch at all in the WE list, why the heck should I keep 5 ranks in the horde? I could safely reform 30 or even 40 wide (nah, not 50, I tend to lose to freak dice and I better not tempt luck). Would be hard to run from that.

At 1500 you are looking at:

Lvl 3 spellweaver w/ steed, scroll, fireball ring 283

10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders 240
10 glade riders 240
9 glade riders 216

Total: 1495

It's not enough shots to threaten 100 goblins, but enough to take out the support.

All it comes down to is keeping enough away from the horde, and keeping losses to a minimum so that you are at least 100 victory points ahead.

And addressing your edit above, the only mission this lists fails at it the watchtower. A mission you almost never see in tournaments.

Jal
11-07-2012, 16:44
[QUOTE=Malorian;6318367]No, this is something we argue about often.



QUOTE]


And this is one of the reason I avoid Warseer unless I have nothing else to do at work - you'll find I'm right, go re-read page 2 and the flow of posts.

A list built almost purely on fast cav (and over-priced fast cav at that) unless Dark riders, won't be able to effetively bring enough shots to bear reliably to make much of a difference. If Glade Riders had Glade Guard bows then it'd be different

Malorian
11-07-2012, 16:50
A list built almost purely on fast cav (and over-priced fast cav at that) unless Dark riders, won't be able to effetively bring enough shots to bear reliably to make much of a difference. If Glade Riders had Glade Guard bows then it'd be different

You don't need to be overly effective. All you need to do is kill 100 points of support units and avoid taking losses.

It's not about arrows wiping out the core of the army and killing the general, it all about the fact that if you are ahead by 100 points you win and if the opponent isn't scoring any points then it's not that hard to do.

Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIcqxFaWkBQ

Urgat
11-07-2012, 16:52
At 1500 you are looking at:

Lvl 3 spellweaver w/ steed, scroll, fireball ring 283

10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders w/ banner 258
10 glade riders 240
10 glade riders 240
9 glade riders 216

Total: 1495

It's not enough shots to threaten 100 goblins, but enough to take out the support.

All it comes down to is keeping enough away from the horde, and keeping losses to a minimum so that you are at least 100 victory points ahead.

And addressing your edit above, the only mission this lists fails at it the watchtower. A mission you almost never see in tournaments.

I see... so if we accept it's unlikely I can sucker you into firing range of the horde, the correct action would be for me to bunker in a corner with my support units behind the horde, and hope to get lucky with the doomdiver and the shaman... hargh, that sounds boring as hell ><

As for the scenarios, I was somehow thinking you had no banners in there.

Malorian
11-07-2012, 17:03
I see... so if we accept it's unlikely I can sucker you into firing range of the horde, the correct action would be for me to bunker in a corner with my support units behind the horde, and hope to get lucky with the doomdiver and the shaman... hargh, that sounds boring as hell ><

As for the scenarios, I was somehow thinking you had no banners in there.

It really is a different kind of game. If you show up with this kind of list and your opponent is caught with his typical build he can be in a lot of trouble. Not only will he probably not have the tools to deal with you, but he will also misplay it as it's a situation they aren't used to.

I'm VERY used to dealing with this since there is a healthy number of wood elve players in the area.

In a local campaign we had recently the forces of evil pretty much always beat the forces of good, but me and one other wood elve player using evasion tactics would stop them in their tracks (except for watch tower...).


I just wish people would at least try it before they bash it.

Urgat
11-07-2012, 17:07
Well, at least, if it ever happens to me, I should know what to expect. Well it's always been a kind of hide and seek game against WE anyway, this one's just the most extreme version of it. Once, I asked a friend what he would think if I fielded an army made entirely of units of 5 wolf riders (basically the same list as yours I guess, with quantity instead of quality). He told me I would play on my own >>

Malorian
11-07-2012, 17:12
I thought about doing it with wolves (or spiders) but animosity ruins it for them. Not only do they not have the range or BS of the wood elves but 1 in every 6 units are going to do something you don't want them to.

I completely understand your friend though. It can be VERY frustrating to play against.

Urgat
11-07-2012, 17:16
Yeah, animosity, well, I've always dealt with it by presenting a flank and keeping outside of charging arcs, so if it stays there, they shouldn't be charged, and if they decide to move forward, better move away than charge something you didn't want to (that's something you learn very early as a greenskin player, don't stand facing too close to something you don't want to charge, your guys can be a bit over-enthusiastic at times). I shall add that the friend I mentioned plays chaos warriors :p (and he never bought a hellcanon).

DrMooreFlava
17-07-2012, 21:29
I got one to the OP

Wait to start Woodies till u get new models + hard cover army book! (Granted this is going to a long wait)

I've been saving $$ for demons cuz im banking on the new greater demon models to be nasty. (Granted this is going to be a long wait)