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MLP
04-07-2012, 11:47
This might be a simple question but I can't find an easy answer anywhere:

If I cast a damaging Lore of Metal spell against a unit the to-wound roll is their armour save so for example Heavy armour and shield would be 4+ to-wound.

My question is: If they have a two handed weapon in combat while carrying a shield, does it count for the spell? Their save in combat is without shield but they obviously still have it on their body so surely the spell would affect it?

Wesser
04-07-2012, 12:05
Yes it does.

Not using shield is purely a combat mechanic, so your armour save for all other purposes are with the shield

MLP
04-07-2012, 20:21
Makes sense, cheers

Moss
11-07-2012, 04:44
Ok, so how about something like white lions' pelts which give +2 (i think) bonus AS against shooting. That bonus AS is included in the calculation, right?

sorberec
11-07-2012, 09:16
I'd say no because they only get that save against shooting attacks as per the High Elf FAQ and neither Searing Doom or Gehenna's are shooting attacks.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-07-2012, 10:36
Okay, so in one case (shields + AHW) the modifier (shield) is used because it is used sometimes (against shooting) but in the other case (Pelt), it is not used because it is used sometimes (shooting)?

You'd only get the shield's AS against shooting attacks or spells that allow it either.

Senor
11-07-2012, 11:17
Okay, so in one case (shields + AHW) the modifier (shield) is used because it is used sometimes (against shooting&Spell effects) but in the other case (Pelt), it is not used because it is used sometimes (only against shooting)?

Lord Solar Plexus
11-07-2012, 11:34
Since when is a shield used against Lore of Metal's spell effects, Senor? In this case and context, both the shield and the Pelt can only ever be used against shooting.

A model with shield + AHW has two armour saves, not one, which apply at different points in time and in different phases. I see no reason why the shooting phase AS would automatically take precedence. Unless you can convince your opponent why that should be so, this remains a case of dicing it off.

Duke_of_Krondor
11-07-2012, 11:53
Presumably it would be the save armour save you would get against that specific attack type? That seems to make the most sense. Hit by a metal magic missile? You'd add the shield for the to woubd roll because you get it against magic missiles (so 4+ in the relevant example).

dementian
11-07-2012, 14:51
I think it is generally assumed that if a model has paid for a shield and additional hand weapon that the shield will be on his person (to defend) any time that he is not actively using his additional hand weapon. The bonus armor save is not something that you can just willy nilly apply.

"Oh you are shooting magic at me? Then my model is going to drop his shield so you can't wound me" Magic phase ends and shooting starts. "Oh you are shooting at me? Then I'm gonna use my shield now k?"

Lord Solar Plexus
11-07-2012, 14:56
Hmm, so you're saying he starts out with 4+ and only drops to 5+ under defined circumstances, and so the former contains and precedes the latter...okay, sounds good enough to me.

Duke of Krondor, good thinking on the type of spell. You two have convinced me.

Blinder
11-07-2012, 18:06
If a character on a killable mount gets dumped on foot, do they get hit as if they were still on the mount? He started out with a (say) 2+, it only drops to (say) 4+ under defined circumstances. This seems similar- the unit is in combat and cannot benefit from the shield for the duration. Their save is 5+ for the purposes of everything else, why does a spell get to calculate their save differently than when they're saving combat wounds?

The bearded one
11-07-2012, 18:10
why does a spell get to calculate their save differently than when they're saving combat wounds?

because they're not saving combat wounds, they're hit by a spell.

Blinder
11-07-2012, 20:06
So, if I've got a unit with shields in combat and they have to use a weapon that denies them the shield, I still get my shield any time a spell hits me?

Artiee
11-07-2012, 20:54
Yes. The great weapon takes precident to hand weapon.. Very few units can chose what weapon to use. (ie Black Orcs)

Agoz
12-07-2012, 05:16
when does this lore attribute when applied to close combat question actually come up anyway? all of the damaging spells in lore of metal are magic missiles or direct damage and cannot be cast into combat.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2012, 06:43
If a character on a killable mount gets dumped on foot, do they get hit as if they were still on the mount? He started out with a (say) 2+, it only drops to (say) 4+ under defined circumstances. This seems similar- the unit is in combat and cannot benefit from the shield for the duration. Their save is 5+ for the purposes of everything else, why does a spell get to calculate their save differently than when they're saving combat wounds?

Combat precludes being hit by Metal's basic spell for example, so the AS in combat is actually irrelevant. The AS against magic missiles will be 4+.

The character permanently drops to the 4+ AS; he cannot revert back to his previously better AS when hit by a magic missile.