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mercury14
04-07-2012, 15:32
Now I have only played four 6e games so far so I'm not drawing any conclusions here yet. But every single challenge I've seen has failed to be cinematic at all. Or fun.

90 percent of the time one character is just way better than another so the challenge gets refused. Rather than challenges being fun duels, they end up just being a thing where one unit just gets to turn off the other unit's character. It all gets metagamed out and few duels happen. Even fewer competitive duels happen. And really crazy strong ICs like Dante have almost nothing to fear.

And then on the flip side, gamers in my group have started taking cheap basic sergeants with no upgrades just to box out a much more powerful opposing character. And t3 character that have to constantly consider ID end up not really working in the system either.

Anyone having similar experiences?

MiyamatoMusashi
04-07-2012, 15:43
Sounds a lot like Warhammer. Champions do all the challenges, leaving Lords to wade through units. Combat characters must have a cheap Champion in the same unit or risk wasting their efforts in a challenge against a cheap Champion; non-combat characters must have a cheap Champion in the unit or risk being sent to the back, as they can't possibly compete in a challenge against even a half decent combat character. End result: challenges are never, ever close-matched fights between high level combat characters, which is supposed to be what they are for.

It won't surprise me if 40K turns out the same, though I've yet to play a game of 6th.

ehlijen
04-07-2012, 15:49
Challenges are primarily a way to combat hidden powerfists. The cinematic duels were never going to be more than a side effect.

Carlosophy
04-07-2012, 15:53
Now I have only played four 6e games so far so I'm not drawing any conclusions here yet. But every single challenge I've seen has failed to be cinematic at all. Or fun.

90 percent of the time one character is just way better than another so the challenge gets refused. Rather than challenges being fun duels, they end up just being a thing where one unit just gets to turn off the other unit's character. It all gets metagamed out and few duels happen. Even fewer competitive duels happen. And really crazy strong ICs like Dante have almost nothing to fear.

And then on the flip side, gamers in my group have started taking cheap basic sergeants with no upgrades just to box out a much more powerful opposing character. And t3 character that have to constantly consider ID end up not really working in the system either.

Anyone having similar experiences?

I imagine this is coming from players not used to Herohammer having their lowly 70pts HQ knocked out of the field by a 200pts monster. In other words, your army should be led by a character strong enough to take his equal and take on infantry at the same time.

The bearded one
04-07-2012, 16:00
I guess also a thing is that in fantasy combats can last a long, long time, easily 3-4 rounds of combat, and so champions can be butchered off in the first round, maybe second, before the combat lords finally get face to face. 40K doesn't have such staying power for units without static combat res or steadfast, so one side likes to get swept away, meaning there's only one round really for the duellers to meet one another.

MiyamatoMusashi
04-07-2012, 16:02
"Should" according to who?

If my Tau Commander gets challenged, he's refusing if it's from anything bigger than a Snotling. Some armies are better in combat than others... if they want to fight heroic cinematic individual challenges, good for them, but some armies just can't do it.

Veteran Sergeant
04-07-2012, 16:21
The challenge rules are stupid, in my opinion. It is just a way of allowing characters to be battlefield bullies. Tough characters can eliminate moderately powerful characters, and weak, throwaway characters can be used to reduce the effectiveness of expensive ones. It's really a rule that will almost never be used the way it is supposed to, and will nearly always be exploited. Though I imagine it will be the slow death of powerfists in the meta. Hopefully you magnetized your squad leaders, lol.

mercury14
04-07-2012, 16:34
I imagine this is coming from players not used to Herohammer having their lowly 70pts HQ knocked out of the field by a 200pts monster. In other words, your army should be led by a character strong enough to take his equal and take on infantry at the same time.


What do you mean "should"? I'm an Eldar player with a codex full of T3 HQs and characters. My only option in challenges is to hide like a wuss and be rendered ineffective. Am I really supposed to entertain the option of accepting a challenge with my Dire Avenger Exarch so he can get creamed just so the unit loses its 5++ save from his warger? And I have ICs like Prince Yriel who is supposed to be pretty deadly. Only he dies to the first S6 hit so he spends the battle hiding.

On the flip side my Avatar charges a full tac marine squad on an objective I need to get him off of ASAP. The stupid sergeant challenges me and I have to accept or my Avatar just has to stand around. Meanwhile the game is about to end and his stalling tactic works to allow him to keep the objective.

Vepr
04-07-2012, 17:11
I still don't understand it for Tyranids. There are times when you would want to but as someone mentioned if someone is just using a throw away sgt to do it to keep a brood lord tied up etc I don't see why Tyranids should have to accept. Tyranids can't have allies = fluffy and Tyranids have to accept challenges or they will be ashamed and won't fight also = fluffy? :wtf:

"Oh dear the hive minds reputation has been sullied, I shall hang my head in abject shame and move to the back of the brood"

ewar
04-07-2012, 17:13
What do you mean "should"? I'm an Eldar player with a codex full of T3 HQs and characters. My only option in challenges is to hide like a wuss and be rendered ineffective. Am I really supposed to entertain the option of accepting a challenge with my Dire Avenger Exarch so he can get creamed just so the unit loses its 5++ save from his warger? And I have ICs like Prince Yriel who is supposed to be pretty deadly. Only he dies to the first S6 hit so he spends the battle hiding.

On the flip side my Avatar charges a full tac marine squad on an objective I need to get him off of ASAP. The stupid sergeant challenges me and I have to accept or my Avatar just has to stand around. Meanwhile the game is about to end and his stalling tactic works to allow him to keep the objective.

I haven't played a game of 6th yet, but see nothing wrong with your examples. Consider the flipside, why should your Avatar get to bowl into a unit of marines and smash them in one round? Neither way is `right`, just a game mechanic both players should adapt to ie send in a support unit with exarch to issue your own challenge and problem solved.

MiyamatoMusashi
04-07-2012, 17:35
Consider the flipside, why should your Avatar get to bowl into a unit of marines and smash them in one round?

Because it's three times the size of a Space Marine and armed with a sword twice the size of a Space Marine and if it wants to smash lots of Space Marines they should have to actually try to stop it, not have one Sergeant going "DON'T WORRY MEN! Stand back, I will sacrifice myself to save you!"

The bearded one
04-07-2012, 17:43
I still don't understand it for Tyranids. There are times when you would want to but as someone mentioned if someone is just using a throw away sgt to do it to keep a brood lord tied up etc I don't see why Tyranids should have to accept. Tyranids can't have allies = fluffy and Tyranids have to accept challenges or they will be ashamed and won't fight also = fluffy? :wtf:

"Oh dear the hive minds reputation has been sullied, I shall hang my head in abject shame and move to the back of the brood"

I think it'd be more a case of "argh! The tasty humanoid who is killing gaunts left and right is after me now! I must flee to the rear! Eat him, my tyranid brothermorphs, eat him! * pushes gaunts out of the way to reach safety * "

ewar
04-07-2012, 18:01
Because it's three times the size of a Space Marine and armed with a sword twice the size of a Space Marine and if it wants to smash lots of Space Marines they should have to actually try to stop it, not have one Sergeant going "DON'T WORRY MEN! Stand back, I will sacrifice myself to save you!"

I think it's just as cinematic that the sergeant would sacrifice himself in a hopeless last stand to buy time for his men and hopefully hold the objective to win the day... it works both ways.

If you don't want your avatar tied up in a challenge, send in a minor character to support him. If you can't, he'll be able to smash the marines in the following round. It adds a bit more depth than 'roll forward smash' at least.

djhowitzer
04-07-2012, 18:03
also, from the eldar avatar point of view - he is the god of war, for f's sake.

as an eldar player i think we have two units that benefit from the challenge rules. phoenix lords are going to love it because they are almost always going first. but most of all, wraithlords are going to love it. charge them into a unit with one power fist. stomp the powerfist. now spend the next turn of combat laughing while marines try to pin grenades on you as you butcher the rest of the squad.
however, exarchs for the most part got the shaft. as did farseers who are not attached to a warlock squad. as did warlocks who are attached to some other squad. as did autarchs anywhere.

if every army had abbadon it would be no fun. that is one reason why we like 40k

djhowitzer
04-07-2012, 18:08
ewar


I think it's just as cinematic that the sergeant would sacrifice himself in a hopeless last stand to buy time for his men and hopefully hold the objective to win the day... it works both ways.

If you don't want your avatar tied up in a challenge, send in a minor character to support him. If you can't, he'll be able to smash the marines in the following round. It adds a bit more depth than 'roll forward smash' at least.

do me a favour. the avatar is second only to a bloodthirster in the entire game as a close combat monstrostity. he can kill half a squad of marines with one swipe of his sword. no a space marine seargent most certainly should not be able to stop him doing anything

interesting question - can you challenge a creature that causes fear? do you have to take a 'balls of steel' test first?

Veteran Sergeant
04-07-2012, 18:10
Consider the flipside, why should your Avatar get to bowl into a unit of marines and smash them in one round? Because it's a giant incarnation of the God of War...?

The game should be about tactics. if you're letting the Avatar get into close combat, it should be laying waste to stuff. That's what it does.

Liber
04-07-2012, 18:20
And then on the flip side, gamers in my group have started taking cheap basic sergeants with no upgrades just to box out a much more powerful opposing character. And t3 character that have to constantly consider ID end up not really working in the system either.

Anyone having similar experiences?


Fantasy player here - isn't there an overkill rule? As in that cheap throw away unit champion get massacred (lets say 5 wounds) and each wound contributes as bonus points to the combat res?? Thats how it works in fantasy and its absolutely nescessary otherwise strong characters can be neutralized for one round every time by either 'wasting' their attacks on a cheap champion, or not being able to fight due to refusing challenge...anyone that could outline how 40k challenges work compared to fantasy would be appreciated.

lanrak
04-07-2012, 18:20
Should the game be about tactics?

Well if it is, someone forgot to tell GW ! :evilgrin:

djhowitzer
04-07-2012, 18:21
yes. and even on the charge. 5a = 3 hits = mostly 3 wounds. space marines have a good chance of passing the morale test anyway. its not like the avatar can roll out 10 attacks (except in my dirty fantasy world, but we dont talk about that)

Magicafiend
04-07-2012, 18:21
Eldrad isn't bad in a challenge, T4, rerollable 3+ invulne(with fortune) WS5, wounds on a 2+ and ignores armor saves because his special weapon has yet to be FAQ'd.(Its not a powerweapon it just says "ignores armor saves" similar to tyranid boneswords)

yarrickson
04-07-2012, 18:26
Because it's a giant incarnation of the God of War...?

The game should be about tactics. if you're letting the Avatar get into close combat, it should be laying waste to stuff. That's what it does.

Umm no, thats what it used to do..... :-D

Jericho
04-07-2012, 18:30
It is definitely one of those game mechanics that will rarely be used to fight the way it's intended. Challenges are sometimes issued becaue you have to (Arjac) but usually you're just trying to protect a guy from getting ganked. I don't see the 40k universe being the place for this, *maybe* if it were one of the Noble necrons vs. an Emperor's Champion or something... but Challenge should probably have been a USR that some characters could get instead of being a core mechanic.

IMHO of course.

ToXikyogHurt
04-07-2012, 18:35
Fantasy player here - isn't there an overkill rule?

You can opt to take 'Look out Sir!' tests to shift wounds onto other squad members, if you want the character alive, but this is chosen by the defender not the attacker.
No, actually after re-reading, you can't do that.

I can't see anything stopping you aiming attacks at targets other than the one you're challenging/challenged by (yet, gonna read it again).

Sexiest_hero
04-07-2012, 18:48
No overkill? time to upgrade all my Chaos Termies to champs.

AlexHolker
04-07-2012, 19:05
The stupid thing about challenges is that it implies a level of respect between the factions that really shouldn't exist. If your HQ is Lucius the Eternal, sure, he's going to respond to the opponent's challenge. But that's a specific character flaw. For every officer who will respond in kind to a challenge, there should be two who consider it beneath them to treat some ape/alien/NCO as an equal, or respond by simply focusing fire on the biggest threat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJqgdaTArM#t=6m35s).

ewar
04-07-2012, 19:06
ewar



do me a favour. the avatar is second only to a bloodthirster in the entire game as a close combat monstrostity. he can kill half a squad of marines with one swipe of his sword. no a space marine seargent most certainly should not be able to stop him doing anything

interesting question - can you challenge a creature that causes fear? do you have to take a 'balls of steel' test first?

Cry me a river. Since when was fluff a basis for good game mechanics? By your method 5 movie marines would be winning games of Apoc single handed.

Its in the rules and there are ways to counter your problem - adapt, these changes happen with new editions. Personally I'm looking forward to characters at least having a chance of fighring each other, rather than hiding in units all the time.

Nymie_the_Pooh
04-07-2012, 19:07
Here's the thing about challenges. Your Imperial Guard Sergent could challenge my Ork Nob with Power Fist that just charged. There is a chance of doing a wound, or getting lucky and pulling off the kill (especially with the bonuses for having multiple models in the unit and the higher Initiative of the Sergent), but that is not the real advantage of challenging my Nob. The benefit for the Imperial Guard player in this case is that I can either refuse the challenge and give up 4 S9 AP2 attacks, or accept the challenge and be limited to the one kill from that model which is by far the best model in that unit of boys. It might not matter, but it changes the odds from four maximum possible wounds dealt by that Nob to one maximum possible wound from that one model.

Spider-pope
04-07-2012, 19:12
ewar



do me a favour. the avatar is second only to a bloodthirster in the entire game as a close combat monstrostity. he can kill half a squad of marines with one swipe of his sword. no a space marine seargent most certainly should not be able to stop him doing anything



And the sergeant likely will not be able to even scratch the Avatar in said challenge. What he can do however is delay the inevitable destruction of his squad by bravely throwing himself into a suicidal combat.


Its in the rules and there are ways to counter your problem - adapt, these changes happen with new editions. Personally I'm looking forward to characters at least having a chance of fighring each other, rather than hiding in units all the time.

Exactly. And it prevents characters from completely dominating the game.

ToXikyogHurt
04-07-2012, 19:19
or accept the challenge and be limited to the one kill from that model which is by far the best model in that unit of boys

I do not think this is the correct interpretation.

Page 64: "only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another"

This, to me, does not say that either party may not strike any target they are engaged with (although they are only in base to base with each other, they are still engaged with every model in 2 inches). Only that neither may be attacked by other parties.

I think they should follow normal wound allocation: Base contact first and then closest engaged model. Precision strikes at anything they want.

If they meant for challenges to be a completely separate fight, they should have written "the challenger and challengee can only strike blows against one another"

Thoughts?

Eldoriath
04-07-2012, 19:24
Actually, if you do assault into a squad and the squad leader sacrifices himself, this will mean that the squad by probability will hold and then next turn you can slaughter things best you like, win combat by a larger margin and make the unit flee. No it's your turn, free to charge again and haven't had to wither a round of fire.

Wasn't this something all melee armies have been asking for?

djhowitzer
04-07-2012, 19:29
yes. i agree with the above post. the way the rules work, the prime mover in any challenge is going to be pulling the teeth from your opponent, not having a nice ding-dong duel

ewar. i never mentioned fluff. avatar has the best cc stats shy of a bloodthirster. that is rules, not fluff.

Nymie_the_Pooh
04-07-2012, 19:38
I do not think this is the correct interpretation.

Page 64: "only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another"

This, to me, does not say that either party may not strike any target they are engaged with (although they are only in base to base with each other, they are still engaged with every model in 2 inches). Only that neither may be attacked by other parties.

I think they should follow normal wound allocation: Base contact first and then closest engaged model. Precision strikes at anything they want.

If they meant for challenges to be a completely separate fight, they should have written "the challenger and challengee can only strike blows against one another"

Thoughts?
That is a great thought. You could very easily be right as I am looking and can't find anything to back up what I was saying. The only thing that supports what I was thinking is that the two characters are considered to be in base contact with no other models than the other character in the challenge. Since all attacks at an initiative step are performed simultaneously then I guess it comes down to is the character allowed to nominate attacks to the rest of the unit while the challenge is still in effect or if their is any spillover? The challenge rules state they are only considered to be in base contact with each other, but it doesn't state if they are still considered engaged with the rest of the unit or not. My guess is that they are according to RAW as challenge is a modification to the norm and since it doesn't directly address that aspect then fall back to the normal assault rules where that is concerned.

ToXikyogHurt
04-07-2012, 19:51
I guess it comes down to is the character allowed to nominate attacks to the rest of the unit while the challenge is still in effect or if their is any spillover? The challenge rules state they are only considered to be in base contact with each other, but it doesn't state if they are still considered engaged

I don't think they get to nominate, they do have to kill their challenger first before moving on. Although 'Precision Strikes' should let them allocate to other models.
To be in a challenge they must be engaged at the start of the fight and I can't see anywhere they get un-engaged.

Veteran Sergeant
04-07-2012, 20:00
Exactly. And it prevents characters from completely dominating the game.Except that it doesn't. It actually allows overpowered characters to dominate and and removes much of the effectiveness of lower end characters, lol. And then, at the same time, it allows throwaway characters to unrealistically tie up units by forcing some kind of ludicrous challenge on the most powerful member who may or may not even bother with such a thing in the fluff.

Aluinn
04-07-2012, 20:00
Hey, Eldar aren't the worst off in a challenge. Consider Imperial Guard or, well, my themed Inquisition army, which is arguably even worse because a Commissar Lord with power fist will beat up on any of my characters (probably even Coteaz unless he gets the 4++ power from Divination), and similarly a generic Autarch can probably do alright against some dudes--plus, since he can potentially fly, he can probably decide to only get in combat with units that have champs/sergeants and no ICs most of the time. Farseers have vastly better invuln protection than most characters in this class if they take Fortune, and when do they not? Guess I should take Paladins but, well, it slightly compromises the theme, and a single Paladin can't beat a lot of the characters around anyway.

(Oddly a Tau Shas'O is decent in combat against T3 dudes who aren't going to be able to get S8+, unless they have a 2+ save, but that's very few of them.)

Point being, the fact that not everyone is Mephiston both benefits and hurts those armies with weaker characters, as we may well be playing against another army with weak characters and somehow get a slight edge in matchups if we play it carefully.

Having said all that I really do think that GW should have done away with Instant Death except on force weapons, since it continues to make T3 characters much worse than most all T4, and T4 much worse than most all T5, well beyond what Toughness in the abstract "should" do, and their points costs tend not to reflect this very well.

Gonefishing
04-07-2012, 20:28
The stupid thing about challenges is that it implies a level of respect between the factions that really shouldn't exist. If your HQ is Lucius the Eternal, sure, he's going to respond to the opponent's challenge. But that's a specific character flaw. For every officer who will respond in kind to a challenge, there should be two who consider it beneath them to treat some ape/alien/NCO as an equal, or respond by simply focusing fire on the biggest threat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJqgdaTArM#t=6m35s).

I agree - The Tau fluff is all about how they disdain the mindless savagery of close combat and think its beneath them.....yet all of a sudden your Tau Character cannot possibly turn down that challenge? In fluff terms hes more likely to take two steps backwards and empty a plasma rifle into his challenger face.

Of course, with the current FAQ Shield Drones belonging to a Character are infact - Characters (or arguablly so), so Tau are in the situation where even if your opponent does not issue a challenge heroic shield drone 22178 can issue a challenge and tie that CC monster up for a turn (Ridiculous on every level but with the current mechanic and substandard FAQ the Tau can avoid the challenge system this way).

PANZERBUNNY
04-07-2012, 20:51
The challenge rules are stupid, in my opinion. It is just a way of allowing characters to be battlefield bullies. Tough characters can eliminate moderately powerful characters, and weak, throwaway characters can be used to reduce the effectiveness of expensive ones. It's really a rule that will almost never be used the way it is supposed to, and will nearly always be exploited. Though I imagine it will be the slow death of powerfists in the meta. Hopefully you magnetized your squad leaders, lol.

Isn't that warfare?

Delaying tactics?

Clog up some german panzers with a sea of infantry which will be mauled while you flank with your own armour and punch hard.

I find MANY modern 40k gamers think VERY linear in terms of rules tactics and how they're employed.

Remember, 40k has a pulp action puff up given to it. Heroes are supposed to be heroic and Staff Sergeants almost always die to boost morale. ;)

Shall we examine the movie "Aliens?". I think Sarge would have something to say.


I love how many people care to comment on the possibilities of characters rejecting challenges in the fluff. Think about it. Warriors of any race are heroes in their own right and like to test their skills against those of their own level. (ie. Not just some grunt. Leaders, warriors.)

Why would a Staff Sergeant stand by and watch a tougher opponent maul his men before stepping in himself? It's his duty to rush forward and engage the enemy.

People need a little more perspective.

mercury14
04-07-2012, 21:25
One other problem I see with the challenge system allowing puny characters to tie up 200-pointers is that it delays them far too much. Assaulters already lost a turn with the new disembark rules, now they're losing a second turn with this system. With so many turns down the drain there's not much of an opportunity to accomplish much.


Isn't that warfare?

Clog up some german panzers with a sea of infantry which will be mauled while you flank with your own armour and punch hard.


Why didn't Poland hold off Germany by insisting that Germany duel it's army for eight months?

Ruination Drinker
05-07-2012, 00:30
I spent about 2 hours watching batreps on Youtube last night and was horrified when I saw the challenges played out.

Challenges are pure BS. They slow the game down, they don't make it fun or cinematic, they screw up list making by filling up the meta with 100's of "what if" scenarios. One wound characters are about as useful as a single square of toilet paper. Why even bother putting a 25 point fist on a sergeant when he's going to strike last against highly tuned melee specialists that all strike at ap3.

Mind you, I love my Nobs now since they can endlessly tarpit you with challenges but that is so freaking cheesy a tactic I'm just going to ask all of my opponents to not use the rule.

bad dice
05-07-2012, 00:41
Because it's three times the size of a Space Marine and armed with a sword twice the size of a Space Marine and if it wants to smash lots of Space Marines they should have to actually try to stop it, not have one Sergeant going "DON'T WORRY MEN! Stand back, I will sacrifice myself to save you!"

Pretty heroic tough. It's just a point of few.

Also the challenge rules are not just there for the cinematic combats. In fact they are not there for that at all.
They are here to stop those god damm hidden powerfist to be the end of ever IC in every army ever.
Which really had a big effect on the army selection of the previous edition.

In over a hundred games I had yet to see a space marine captain that was not a special character.
Why cause he would just get duffed over in combat by a hidden power fist and be a waste of points.


Now he can save his own life by smacking that Sargent/nob exarch like the little bitch he is and be useful in later rounds.

KharnTheBetrayer01
05-07-2012, 00:51
...Does no-one read the fluff? Heroically throwing themselves into the jaws of death so the squad and their favoured rookie can come back and win later is what Space Marine Sargent's are for. Every single short story anthology has at least one tale, usually told from the rookies P.O.V, where the badass leader of the squad will sacrifice himself for the good of the mission. Be it trying to distract an Ork Biker Boss, Slapping a Melta-bomb onto a bridge with no chance of escape, tackling a Tyranid off of a cliff or locking the door and facing a daemonhost alone, it always happens. Now we can recreate that in game.

Alternatively, people can start looking into ways of making their characters better in combat with new and exciting wargear options. Remember, if you're low Toughness, aim to have higher initiative.

Ruination Drinker
05-07-2012, 01:06
Fine.

At 2k I'll start fielding 8 squads of Nobs and come back to check the amount of ********. That's 2 Troops, and 6 Elites for those of you counting at home.

Have fun playing whack-a-mole with the PK and the Boss buried in those units.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 01:21
Fine.

At 2k I'll start fielding 8 squads of Nobs and come back to check the amount of ********. That's 2 Troops, and 6 Elites for those of you counting at home.

Have fun playing whack-a-mole with the PK and the Boss buried in those units.


Shrug. I play units of 10 warlocks plus farseer with re-rollable 4++. Tiny warlocks will keep 250 pt characters locked up forever. And if your squad size is a little small my warlock gets a 4++ with twin re-rolls, meaning it will take about ten thunder hammer hits to bring him down.

This is lame.

Daemonia
05-07-2012, 01:23
In a game I played yesterday with my Guardsmen against a mate's Ultramarines, my Junior Officer managed to kill two Sergeants with power fists because he uses a power sword. S3 or not, 4 attacks give you a reasonable chance to wound a Space Marine. Sure the rest of his squad were absolutely butchered but hey, it's a man's life in the Death Korps.

Nubl0
05-07-2012, 01:23
But challenges can be fun! Im by no means a super fluff nut but when that punk dante and co assaulted the grand pharon that is Imoktek I was all up for teaching him a lesson. Sure I could have had my lord with MSS and scythe take the challenge but it felt right for imotek to step up. Plus amazingly he pimped slapped the sissy marine down anyway! Granted he had taken 2 wounds already from overwatch fire but... oh well :P

DJElam
05-07-2012, 01:51
I haven't had a chance to play 6th but I can see the end of my IG in combat. Cause unless the other guy is going at I1, my guys will be long dead before they can fight back. Only my best chatacters would have any hope of living long enough to attack back against a plain old space marine sargent with a power sword. And almost none if their up against an IC. My best hope is to run plain offices so when they die, the loss doesn't hurt so much.

I've had some luck in close combat but that's only because of teamwork of the squid and chatacters, not by throwing the enemy sacrificial lambs.

I can see what they were going for, but what works for fantasy doesn't work for 40k. That's how I see it anyway, after all I can tool up a mare hero to at lest live along enough to hopefully hurt your monster of a lord. But how is it anywhere close to a fight(or even fun) when my company commander can easly die to a space sergeant with a power sword. "Heroically" not for the guard, but 100% pure stupidity. If i had such a guy in my army I'd do a commissar and shot them in the head before he gets everyone else killed.

Vaktathi
05-07-2012, 02:02
I imagine this is coming from players not used to Herohammer having their lowly 70pts HQ knocked out of the field by a 200pts monster. In other words, your army should be led by a character strong enough to take his equal and take on infantry at the same time.So, Eldar with their mighty...S3 T3 W3 3+sv ~100pt combat heroes? Imperial Guard with their mighty WS4 S3 T3 I3 5+sv combat heroes? Not everyone even has the option to take 200pt combat monsters.


Yeah, overall, the challenge rules feel really hamfisted and gimmicky. "Oh look, Abaddon wades in, my cheap sergeant challenges him and removes him from the combat equation, Abaddon adds 1 to combat resolution...hooray".

The Underdog
05-07-2012, 03:10
Yeah, overall, the challenge rules feel really hamfisted and gimmicky. "Oh look, Abaddon wades in, my cheap sergeant challenges him and removes him from the combat equation, Abaddon adds 1 to combat resolution...hooray".

I think it's that part that's the major problem however - add in the overkill rule from fantasy however (up to 5 'wounds' can be caused over and above those on the losing characters profile which then counts towards combat resolution for those unfamiliar with it) and suddenly Sergeant McCheapo can still keep his squad alive but seeing him butchered so horribly will have a huge effect on their morale and won't necessarily mean the combat character is totally neutered.

All in all i like that GW added the challenges as it seems like a step in the right direction, they just didn't quite get 100% success with this one, though with the sweeping changes this edition it's not like I expected 100% on everything anyway.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 03:20
I think it's that part that's the major problem however - add in the overkill rule from fantasy however (up to 5 'wounds' can be caused over and above those on the losing characters profile which then counts towards combat resolution for those unfamiliar with it) and suddenly Sergeant McCheapo can still keep his squad alive but seeing him butchered so horribly will have a huge effect on their morale and won't necessarily mean the combat character is totally neutered.

All in all i like that GW added the challenges as it seems like a step in the right direction, they just didn't quite get 100% success with this one, though with the sweeping changes this edition it's not like I expected 100% on everything anyway.


It's puzzling why they didn't include that rule.

But it would only solve one of the two problems at hand. The second one being that some armies lack HQs with solid CC ability (or very valuable 1-wound models such as Eldar Exarchs that source the whole unit with abilities) and just get bullied out of everything... and the overwhelming role ID plays.

The Underdog
05-07-2012, 04:17
Hmm, interesting. On a further read through of the challenge rules, it looks possible that overkill has been implemented - just not as clearly as in fantasy (which makes me wonder if I'm imagining things).

Anyway - the rules on p.65 state that 'Unsaved wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units' Th interesting part comes from the fact that following the wound allocation rules seems to lead me to create a 'pool' of unsaved wounds before these are allocated to anyone. Therefore my challenge logic would be that Nasty Character A causes say 4 wounds which lowly sergeant B fails to save. These are what count to combat res, despite only one of them needing to be applied to kill lowly sergeant B. Am I wrong in this?

Also, the point about not all armies having nasty death dealers is very valid but that still applies in fantasy and doesn't seem to impact the game to badly - for example very few Skaven warlords can survive against nasty combat characters but that doesn't seem to stop Skaven being a powerful army and this applies across a wide variety of fantasy armies. I think this problem will become less of an issue as 40k players adapt to having challenge rules, and as more true 6th ed codexes are released.

ehlijen
05-07-2012, 05:15
Underdog:

P26 states that only wounds actually suffered count towards combat resolution and the challenge rules do not override this.

Decius
05-07-2012, 05:36
I think allowing challenges to be ignored/refused/cancelled with the "look out sir" rule might go a ways to balancing them.

Say, an attacker issued a challenge, the defender may...
1 Accept the challenge, resolved as is now (both attack each other, mano e mano)
2 Refuse the challenge, resolved as is now (can't attack, pee self)
3 Attempt to Ignore the challenge, resolved as a "look out sir!" (4+, or 2+ for ICs).
- If the test passes, challenge is cancelled and both units fight as if there was no challenge issued,
representing some plucky trooper getting in the way and causing a free-for-all. Or, a SGT saying "What am I an idiot? Fill it with las boys!"
- Test failed, challenge was accepted after all...
- If the character is alone, no opportunity to refuse, as it is now (the "nowhere to hide" rule).
- Maybe allow all monstrous creature a constant 4+ chance to ignore challenges, even if alone.
Call it the "You're all beneath me!" rule.

I may have just invented a house rule for my buddy and I. Excuse me...

Ruination Drinker
05-07-2012, 05:38
[Warning: this may be a terrible example, but ere we go]
I don't play Eldar but I understand that Wraithguard have to have a guy in the unit to keep them from going mindless? A Warlock perhaps?

So with challenge rules a cheap unit with a high save, let's say a Lone Wolf with TDA+SS can jump into combat with them and squish the Lock in a challenge? This sounds ok if the LW dies to massed melee of the WG (especially to the Wolf player), but now they have no one leading them and are severely hampered. Worse yet the LW cost less than half the price of full WG squad!

Challenges seem to be another area where the rich got richer.

Decius
05-07-2012, 05:46
[Warning: this may be a terrible example, but ere we go]
I don't play Eldar but I understand that Wraithguard have to have a guy in the unit to keep them from going mindless? A Warlock perhaps?

So with challenge rules a cheap unit with a high save, let's say a Lone Wolf with TDA+SS can jump into combat with them and squish the Lock in a challenge? This sounds ok if the LW dies to massed melee of the WG (especially to the Wolf player), but now they have no one leading them and are severely hampered. Worse yet the LW cost less than half the price of full WG squad!

Challenges seem to be another area where the rich got richer.

While I do like the idea of that thematically, I would agree with you that it seems a little much. A challenger should not always count on their challenges getting accepted with honour. Try my house rule! :)

Seriously though, try my house rule and tell me how it goes. I want to know if it's crap or gold.

TheDoctor
05-07-2012, 05:47
So, Eldar with their mighty...S3 T3 W3 3+sv ~100pt combat heroes? Imperial Guard with their mighty WS4 S3 T3 I3 5+sv combat heroes? Not everyone even has the option to take 200pt combat monsters.


Yeah, overall, the challenge rules feel really hamfisted and gimmicky. "Oh look, Abaddon wades in, my cheap sergeant challenges him and removes him from the combat equation, Abaddon adds 1 to combat resolution...hooray".

*cough* Phoenix Lords *cough*

Played a 1500 pt game against Grey Knights today, and I had a 10 man storm guardian unit with an enhance lock, a fortune/doom farseer, and a Corsair Void Dreamer (with BRB powers). Topped it off with Fuegan.

I had fun walking through termies like they weren't there. My rangers sniped the sarge out of a 10 man termie squad, and after all was said and done, there was a Librarian and 3 dudes. Fuegan and friends waded in there, I issued a challenge, got the Librarian to sit in the back and do nothing. Fuegan then hacked apart 3 termies and put a wound on the Librarian (re-rolling everything is amazing), then my Guardians proceeded to kill the Librarian.
Total casualties to me? None.

I like the new challenge rules.
That squad setup also gets around the griping of "cheap sarge takes one for the team". If they tried it, my lowly warlock would accept the challenge.

Also, different point- I like the new Wound Allocation. Taking hits from the front on a re-rollable 2+ armor with feel no pain, and with a 2+look out sir is pure awesome.

Ruination Drinker
05-07-2012, 06:07
Seriously though, try my house rule and tell me how it goes. I want to know if it's crap or gold.

I was thinking something along the same lines for my games. Basically a save to refuse the challenge, it should be called "Wot wuz dat?" because the character couldn't hear the challenge over the din of battle... or so he would like you to believe. ;)

Misfratz
05-07-2012, 07:39
Though I imagine it will be the slow death of powerfists in the meta.Bingo!

Hidden powerfists were too strong, to the extent that they were judged to be mandatory by the meta, and the introduction of challenges, and also the wound allocation rules, both act to make it more risky to spend so many points on an upgrade for a relatively weak squad sergeant/nob/whatever.

Time will tell whether GW have judged this just right, or moved the balance too far in the other direction.

MiyamatoMusashi
05-07-2012, 07:46
...Does no-one read the fluff? Heroically throwing themselves into the jaws of death so the squad and their favoured rookie can come back and win later is what Space Marine Sargent's are for.

Yes, but that was never the point. Brutally and unstoppably slaughtering everything they come across is what Eldar Avatars are for. I can understand the Sergeant sacrificing himself (even though all those short stories you mention are tiresomely predictable, but yes they're always there) but he wouldn't actually get any further than "stand back men, I'll sa--!" before the Suin Daellae cut him in half and then the Avatar ploughed into the rest of his squad.

The problem isn't the Sergeant issuing the challenge (or at least, that is a problem but it's consistent with the setting, as the setting has plenty of idiocy). The problem is the Avatar being forced to give a ******* about the challenge just for a crappy rules mechanic.

Baaltor
05-07-2012, 08:07
I like this rule, and the fact that everybody's unhappy with it affirms my belief that it's balanced. People who want their monsters to blast through units unimpeded, and those who want their wimpy characters to be able to snipe troopers off from the sideline both hate it!

People seem to think that issuing a challenge is just bellowing out to the biggest ork out there: "Hey, you feel like fighting? It's cool if you don't, I sorta had plans this battle, but I feel like doing something around 6ish". No, it's the character calling out the enemy, and going TO them themselves. Have any of you ever been in a fight? It's hard enough to avoid someone when you can run, but it's worse when you're bound to stay. To make matters worse, the squad mates of the challenger are HELPING him get to grips with his enemy by clearing space for him.

And as for challenges supposed to be close fought, that's a myth. Challenges existed in real life to tie up the stronger warriors with weaker ones, and to defeat important officers. Occasionally it was between two evenly matched individuals, but that's more likely to be personal, what kind of strategy is that? It's the lol, let's roll dice an' see what happens strategy. If you want that you may want to consider competitive dice rolling.

ehlijen
05-07-2012, 08:18
[Warning: this may be a terrible example, but ere we go]
I don't play Eldar but I understand that Wraithguard have to have a guy in the unit to keep them from going mindless? A Warlock perhaps?

So with challenge rules a cheap unit with a high save, let's say a Lone Wolf with TDA+SS can jump into combat with them and squish the Lock in a challenge? This sounds ok if the LW dies to massed melee of the WG (especially to the Wolf player), but now they have no one leading them and are severely hampered. Worse yet the LW cost less than half the price of full WG squad!

Challenges seem to be another area where the rich got richer.

Why did the warlock accept? Just refuse, don't worry about the 1 or 2 less attacks you get and try to fight him with the wraithguard. Though, of course, if a terminator gets into combat with the wraithguard, things aren't going well for them anyway.


Yes, but that was never the point. Brutally and unstoppably slaughtering everything they come across is what Eldar Avatars are for. I can understand the Sergeant sacrificing himself (even though all those short stories you mention are tiresomely predictable, but yes they're always there) but he wouldn't actually get any further than "stand back men, I'll sa--!" before the Suin Daellae cut him in half and then the Avatar ploughed into the rest of his squad.

The problem isn't the Sergeant issuing the challenge (or at least, that is a problem but it's consistent with the setting, as the setting has plenty of idiocy). The problem is the Avatar being forced to give a ******* about the challenge just for a crappy rules mechanic.

You mean the incarnation of the arrogant god of war of an arrogant race wouldn't rejoice in the opportunity to prove his prowess by demonstrating his superior skill? He is the god or war, not of slaughter.

And this 'my background says I'm unbeatable' vs 'my background says I'm unstoppable' isn't going to go anywhere. On the tabletop neither is true.

Sami
05-07-2012, 08:44
The whole part about "no where to run" if a a single-model unit containing a character is issued with a challenge is crap. Refusing the challenge isn't about running away, it's about challenging their entire squad to a fight. Single model character units really should be given the choice to either fight the challenge one on one, or just ignore it and take on the entire enemy squad instead.

However, if it does get FAQ'ed to confirm that excess wounds in a challenge get passed to the rest of the squad then all will be well.

HereBeDragons
05-07-2012, 08:50
Surely to remove the "hidden power fist" problem, it would have been significantly easier to allow you to direct your attacks against sergeants just like against IC in the previous edition?

AlexHolker
05-07-2012, 08:53
You mean the incarnation of the arrogant god of war of an arrogant race wouldn't rejoice in the opportunity to prove his prowess by demonstrating his superior skill? He is the god or war, not of slaughter.
Of course not, that would be stupid. He's the god of war, not Queensbury rules boxing.

Besides, what self-respecting Eldar needs to prove he's better than some overgrown mon-keigh? It should be self-evident.

Skopey
05-07-2012, 09:15
But when that Mon-keigh decides he's not gonna back down and shows disdain to the Eldars fighting prowess the Eldar is going to prove him wrong right? I mean, "...he really thinks he can best mois?! Why i'll shove my sw...... Oh bugger he's pretty good!"

mercury14
05-07-2012, 09:16
*cough* Phoenix Lords *cough*

Played a 1500 pt game against Grey Knights today, and I had a 10 man storm guardian unit with an enhance lock, a fortune/doom farseer, and a Corsair Void Dreamer (with BRB powers). Topped it off with Fuegan.

I had fun walking through termies like they weren't there. My rangers sniped the sarge out of a 10 man termie squad, and after all was said and done, there was a Librarian and 3 dudes. Fuegan and friends waded in there, I issued a challenge, got the Librarian to sit in the back and do nothing. Fuegan then hacked apart 3 termies and put a wound on the Librarian (re-rolling everything is amazing), then my Guardians proceeded to kill the Librarian.
Total casualties to me? None.

I like the new challenge rules.
That squad setup also gets around the griping of "cheap sarge takes one for the team". If they tried it, my lowly warlock would accept the challenge.

Also, different point- I like the new Wound Allocation. Taking hits from the front on a re-rollable 2+ armor with feel no pain, and with a 2+look out sir is pure awesome.



Unless the GK brought a guy with a thunderhammer in which case Fuegan gets massacred.

Memnos
05-07-2012, 09:27
Don't you have troops that can force anyone trying to strike him to hit on 6s? Dire Avenger Exarch?

I'd say the challenge system is, in the short term, a nice addition to the Eldar. Specifically, to take someone like Asurmen(Those rerolls will be nice), or Jain Zar, or an Autarch, or even a Howling Banshee exarch(4 rerolls and a power save means you don't have to get that lucky - And you go first).



What do you mean "should"? I'm an Eldar player with a codex full of T3 HQs and characters. My only option in challenges is to hide like a wuss and be rendered ineffective. Am I really supposed to entertain the option of accepting a challenge with my Dire Avenger Exarch so he can get creamed just so the unit loses its 5++ save from his warger? And I have ICs like Prince Yriel who is supposed to be pretty deadly. Only he dies to the first S6 hit so he spends the battle hiding.

On the flip side my Avatar charges a full tac marine squad on an objective I need to get him off of ASAP. The stupid sergeant challenges me and I have to accept or my Avatar just has to stand around. Meanwhile the game is about to end and his stalling tactic works to allow him to keep the objective.

AlexHolker
05-07-2012, 09:38
But when that Mon-keigh decides he's not gonna back down and shows disdain to the Eldars fighting prowess the Eldar is going to prove him wrong right? I mean, "...he really thinks he can best mois?! Why i'll shove my sw...... Oh bugger he's pretty good!"
He is just an ape. Let him think his apish thoughts. Educating the beast is as pointless as trying to teach your dog to appreciate Shakespeare.

Memnos
05-07-2012, 09:43
He is just an ape. Let him think his apish thoughts. Educating the beast is as pointless as trying to teach your dog to appreciate Shakespeare.

More appropriately: "Hey! The guy I was sent to kill is telling all his guys to step aside and let him through to me. This is the perfect opportunity!"

mercury14
05-07-2012, 09:44
Don't you have troops that can force anyone trying to strike him to hit on 6s? Dire Avenger Exarch?

No you have Eldar confused with someone else. :) The DA Exarch gives three powers to his squad that are critical to DA being even an average unit: bladestorm, defend, and shimmershield. If the Exarch dies then the rest of his squad loses its 5++, a shooting attack, and every opposing model gets one more CC attack. That makes it impossible for him to justify a challenge.



I'd say the challenge system is, in the short term, a nice addition to the Eldar. Specifically, to take someone like Asurmen(Those rerolls will be nice), or Jain Zar, or an Autarch, or even a Howling Banshee exarch(4 rerolls and a power save means you don't have to get that lucky - And you go first).

Asurmen is 230 points and worth about 150. And 6e nerfed his weapon badly. Jain Zar is more or less in the same situation. Autarchs face insta-death against any str 6 attack. None of them can stand up to terminator armor anymore which is the primary problem for us.

The other problem with these units is that they're not psykers. Eldar are so defanged in 6e that we really need psykers just to tread water. And now with the new reserves rule the Autarch reserves ability isn't needed much. He's just an overly expensive generalist unit now that runs around fearing ID.

Banshees are unplayable in 6e, no need to talk about their Exarch.

AdamR
05-07-2012, 09:57
Banshees are unplayable in 6e, no need to talk about their Exarch.

Are you sure you aren't confusing unplayable with sub optimal?
Not every army is packed with 2+ saves.

Memnos
05-07-2012, 10:04
Mercury: I feel like you're a fairly bright guy.

Don't throw Banshees against Terminators. Use your Bright Lances, Starcannons, Wraithguard, etc. and take them down that way.

You do an awful lot of whining about how bad your army is. Someone offered you 50 for your army a few days ago. If you hate it so much, why not take him up on it? It's 50 more than you'd have otherwise and, since you clearly aren't happy with how terrible your army is, you won't even have to have frustrating, instant loss games.

MiyamatoMusashi
05-07-2012, 10:07
People seem to think that issuing a challenge is just bellowing out to the biggest ork out there: "Hey, you feel like fighting? It's cool if you don't, I sorta had plans this battle, but I feel like doing something around 6ish". No, it's the character calling out the enemy, and going TO them themselves. Have any of you ever been in a fight? It's hard enough to avoid someone when you can run, but it's worse when you're bound to stay

How is this still so hard for you to understand?

Sergeant bellows at Avatar. Runs toward Avatar. Avatar can't avoid him as you rightly point out, oh noes!!! ...Avatar casually smites sergeant aside then proceeds to butcher the rest of the squad.

It's not about whether the Avatar can "avoid" the Sergeant. It's about why he then has to stop just because the Sergeant called him out. It's an arbitrary, dissociated mechanic that makes no sense, will never be cinematic and will only ever be abused for purposes it was not ostensibly intended for.

AdamR
05-07-2012, 10:30
Sergeant bellows at Avatar. Runs toward Avatar. Avatar can't avoid him as you rightly point out, oh noes!!! ...Avatar casually smites sergeant aside then proceeds to butcher the rest of the squad.

It's not about whether the Avatar can "avoid" the Sergeant. It's about why he then has to stop just because the Sergeant called him out.

Isn't that what the next turn is for? With 4 attacks the Avatar isn't butchering 10 man squads in one round anyway.

The Underdog
05-07-2012, 10:34
Underdog:

P26 states that only wounds actually suffered count towards combat resolution and the challenge rules do not override this.

Damn - knew I'd be missing something. Thanks!

ehlijen
05-07-2012, 10:36
How is this still so hard for you to understand?

Sergeant bellows at Avatar. Runs toward Avatar. Avatar can't avoid him as you rightly point out, oh noes!!! ...Avatar casually smites sergeant aside then proceeds to butcher the rest of the squad.

It's not about whether the Avatar can "avoid" the Sergeant. It's about why he then has to stop just because the Sergeant called him out. It's an arbitrary, dissociated mechanic that makes no sense, will never be cinematic and will only ever be abused for purposes it was not ostensibly intended for.

You don't want to understand that the sergeant doesn't just get smashed. He will eventually and then the avatar can go back to marine smiting, but not before the marines get one chance to actually fall back as their sergeant told them to.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 10:53
Isn't that what the next turn is for? With 4 attacks the Avatar isn't butchering 10 man squads in one round anyway.

5 on the charge and he's likely to win combat and sweep.

xerxeshavelock
05-07-2012, 11:00
The challenge mechanic can work out pretty well for a canny attacker. Your nasty guy doesn't always want to win in the forst round, so if your challenge is accepted by a boggo sergeant and you kill him off before he strikes, you're less likely to win that turn, and you've got rid of the main threat to your character. In your opponents next turn you (hopefully win the combat, butcher all before you and can then repeat. Its a bingo!

It also makes the Power Weapon a bit more desireable against the fist. 2 Tactical squads - 1 with fist, 1 with sword. In 5th, fist wins easily. With challenges, sword is probably better. In 6th the opposite may be true. The sword player issues a challenge, the fist can accept and risk being cut down, or hide and not attack. Its not a guarantee, but its no longer a no-brainer to take the fist imo.

Both of these are situational, but both interesting and not uncommon cases.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 11:00
Mercury: I feel like you're a fairly bright guy.

Don't throw Banshees against Terminators. Use your Bright Lances, Starcannons, Wraithguard, etc. and take them down that way.

You do an awful lot of whining about how bad your army is. Someone offered you 50 for your army a few days ago. If you hate it so much, why not take him up on it? It's 50 more than you'd have otherwise and, since you clearly aren't happy with how terrible your army is, you won't even have to have frustrating, instant loss games.


Are you sure you aren't confusing unplayable with sub optimal?
Not every army is packed with 2+ saves.


Power weapon nerf aside, Banshees are unplayable because Eldar transports are 100+ points and unable to deliver them effectively. There's just no way that T3 models with soft armor are going to be effective standing around for a round getting shot after disembarking, then shot a second time in overwatch. That and Wave Serpents are absurdly flimsy and easily killed in assault by even Tac marines when they get close enough to drop off CC units. It's just not playable.

I love Eldar though and I'm not trying to just whine. I'm pointing out that our dex needs to be updated because we have a heap of units that aren't remotely competitive. But suggesting that the Exarch of a pretty non-functional unit is a good option for challenges doesn't make a lot of sense to me I guess.

Memnos
05-07-2012, 11:16
Power weapon nerf aside, Banshees are unplayable because Eldar transports are 100+ points and unable to deliver them effectively. There's just no way that T3 models with soft armor are going to be effective standing around for a round getting shot after disembarking, then shot a second time in overwatch. That and Wave Serpents are absurdly flimsy and easily killed in assault by even Tac marines when they get close enough to drop off CC units. It's just not playable.

Let's find out!

A squad of marines advances and rapid-fires 14 bolt gun shots, a bolt pistol shot and... What? 4 Plasma Guns shots?

fifteen shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds, half are saved via armor/cover because you're standing behind the tank - Which they subsequently can't charge because they shot at a squad out of the tank.

2.66 hits, roughly 2.2 wounds, half saved from cover from the plasma guns. 4-5 die.

You then advance, fire your shuriken pistols causing about half a wound. You then charge.

They get 2.5 hits, roughly 1.6 wounds. Half save. You get about 1 more death from rapid firing. We'll say 6 dead.

You charged. Depending on weapons(Mirror swords?), that's about 3 dead, one of which will be the power fist(Or he won't be able to fight back because you will challenge him). They're down to 6 guys because of plasma overheats(On average taking 1.33 wounds, saved to about .45 and the shuriken pistols), including a champion.

That's 3.5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead.

You win and keep on winning. It's close, but equal points on equal points, you win. And that's against a plasma squad, which is basically the best you could get. That's you being unsupported and unaugmented.

At this point, you can simply yell "Mathhammer!" and pretend that odds don't mean anything, in which case my argument will simply be "Okay. Then let's not use mathhammer. You're facing a unit of Space Marines - Equal points. You footslog it - No cover. They miss every time and you hit and wound every time with your shuriken pistols and they fail every save. HURRAY! You won and they're still good." or you can make the argument that equal points of Space Marines should be massacred by Howling Banshees every single time and that they shouldn't be able to shoot at all.

In that case, I'd say "Grow a pair. You can't always get what you want."

adreal
05-07-2012, 11:18
The challenge mechanic can work out pretty well for a canny attacker. Your nasty guy doesn't always want to win in the forst round, so if your challenge is accepted by a boggo sergeant and you kill him off before he strikes, you're less likely to win that turn, and you've got rid of the main threat to your character. In your opponents next turn you (hopefully win the combat, butcher all before you and can then repeat. Its a bingo!

It also makes the Power Weapon a bit more desireable against the fist. 2 Tactical squads - 1 with fist, 1 with sword. In 5th, fist wins easily. With challenges, sword is probably better. In 6th the opposite may be true. The sword player issues a challenge, the fist can accept and risk being cut down, or hide and not attack. Its not a guarantee, but its no longer a no-brainer to take the fist imo.

Both of these are situational, but both interesting and not uncommon cases.

Challenge works great for mixed Initive units that get the charge (archon, kalvex and incubi)

archon kills sarge (so the rest of the incubi can kill the squad)
klavex does his thing. moving away from the main unit of incubi, further into the units if possible
incubi then step up to the klavexs and swing off him, carving your way into the unit.

if they hold then the archon will kill off whats left in thier turn

not fool proof, but it does seem to work.

Iskandar
05-07-2012, 11:41
Power weapon nerf aside, Banshees are unplayable because Eldar transports are 100+ points and unable to deliver them effectively. There's just no way that T3 models with soft armor are going to be effective standing around for a round getting shot after disembarking, then shot a second time in overwatch. That and Wave Serpents are absurdly flimsy and easily killed in assault by even Tac marines when they get close enough to drop off CC units. It's just not playable.

I love Eldar though and I'm not trying to just whine. I'm pointing out that our dex needs to be updated because we have a heap of units that aren't remotely competitive. But suggesting that the Exarch of a pretty non-functional unit is a good option for challenges doesn't make a lot of sense to me I guess.

Then the problem is the player. If your transport is getting meleed by a non jump/bike unit you're doing something wrong. Owing to the fact that you can't assault from any vehicle that isn't assault, it's no longer advantageous to drop off troops when you see the whites of their eyes. Far better now to use the vehicle as a cover point before going all out on the assault. Sure you'll lose 1/2 to focus fire from that unit but that's part and parcel of assault in 6th.

The Banshee nerf is a shame but, Banshees were getting obsolete due to codex creep anyway. Harlequins still appear to be a good bet: for only +2 points per model you get an extra attack, 5++s, rending and the option to take a Shadowseer which improves their survival chance to shooting on the run/charge.

IJW
05-07-2012, 11:44
fifteen shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds, half are saved via armor/cover because you're standing behind the tank - Which they subsequently can't charge because they shot at a squad out of the tank.

Which they can't subsequently charge because they fired Rapid Fire weapons. Who they shot is irrelevant. ;)




You win and keep on winning. It's close, but equal points on equal points, you win. And that's against a plasma squad, which is basically the best you could get. That's you being unsupported and unaugmented.

Even if you could take double-plasma with vanilla Marines it wouldn't be equal points. Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter is more likely, cheaper and overall will do about the same number of kills with fewer overheats. If you look at a unit that can take double-plasma like Grey Hunters the points difference is even more extreme and the GHs will have a decent chance of winning the combat.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 12:59
Let's find out!

A squad of marines advances and rapid-fires 14 bolt gun shots, a bolt pistol shot and... What? 4 Plasma Guns shots?

fifteen shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds, half are saved via armor/cover because you're standing behind the tank - Which they subsequently can't charge because they shot at a squad out of the tank.

2.66 hits, roughly 2.2 wounds, half saved from cover from the plasma guns. 4-5 die.

You then advance, fire your shuriken pistols causing about half a wound. You then charge.

They get 2.5 hits, roughly 1.6 wounds. Half save. You get about 1 more death from rapid firing. We'll say 6 dead.

You charged. Depending on weapons(Mirror swords?), that's about 3 dead, one of which will be the power fist(Or he won't be able to fight back because you will challenge him). They're down to 6 guys because of plasma overheats(On average taking 1.33 wounds, saved to about .45 and the shuriken pistols), including a champion.

That's 3.5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead.

You win and keep on winning. It's close, but equal points on equal points, you win. And that's against a plasma squad, which is basically the best you could get. That's you being unsupported and unaugmented.

At this point, you can simply yell "Mathhammer!" and pretend that odds don't mean anything, in which case my argument will simply be "Okay. Then let's not use mathhammer. You're facing a unit of Space Marines - Equal points. You footslog it - No cover. They miss every time and you hit and wound every time with your shuriken pistols and they fail every save. HURRAY! You won and they're still good." or you can make the argument that equal points of Space Marines should be massacred by Howling Banshees every single time and that they shouldn't be able to shoot at all.

In that case, I'd say "Grow a pair. You can't always get what you want."


Okay so basically a squad of 10 banshees assaulting Tac marines can go either way now. And that's not a nerf to Banshees of monumental proportions.

1) You're ignoring the fact that newly disembarked Banshees are are a squishy, high-priority target for more than just the unit they're assaulting. Re-run your mathhammer with a couple squads shooting them and re-post.

2) You're ignoring the fact that to pull this off they have to use a now-fragile, extremely overpriced transport and put it in harm's way.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 13:05
Then the problem is the player. If your transport is getting meleed by a non jump/bike unit you're doing something wrong.

What? No. CC units, fire dragons, etc need to be close. FDs need to be within 6" to use their melta ability. Exactly how is an Eldar player going to keep their WS at a good distance while also dropping these units off at close range? And you're ignoring the fact that even Tac marines can assault up to 18" away now and blanket vehicles in krak grenades.

I mean... Wave Serpents went from 6 to-assault while moving to 3+, to the AV10 back armor. There's just no way you can deny that this is a massive nerf. And there's no way you can blame it on the player.



Owing to the fact that you can't assault from any vehicle that isn't assault, it's no longer advantageous to drop off troops when you see the whites of their eyes.

And if you drop your Banshees off at longer range their intended targets gain the option of simply moving away.

Iskandar
05-07-2012, 13:08
What? No. CC units, fire dragons, etc need to be close. FDs need to be within 6" to use their melta ability. Exactly how is an Eldar player going to keep their WS at a good distance while also dropping these units off at close range? And you're ignoring the fact that even Tac marines can assault up to 18" away now.

They do indeed, but we weren't talking about FDs...


I mean... Wave Serpents went from 6 to-hit while moving to 3+. There's just no way you can deny that this is a massive nerf. And there's no way you can blame it on the player.

Honestly, if we're talking about Fire Dragons out and ready to fire, assaulting the Wave Serpent is the last thing on my mind...


And if you drop your Banshees off at longer range their intended targets gain the option of simply moving away.

You yourself said that 18" Charge is possible (even more reliable with Fleet). Sure you can move 6" away but any more means that they won't be able to fire their weapons.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 13:17
You yourself said that 18" Charge is possible (even more reliable with Fleet). Sure you can move 6" away but any more means that they won't be able to fire their weapons.

We have pre-measuring now. Disembarking banshees at long range can be countered by Marines simply moving back the correct amount and shooting. Banshees running around on the map on foot is foolish. But not foolish for long because they get vaporized so fast.

orkmiester
05-07-2012, 13:22
these challenges are very situational and in my humble opinion boil down to 2 things

A) do you want to kill the powerfist etc guy in the squad?

B) would you prefer to kill more of the enemy squad, and possibly kill the whole unit?

simple choice but it has big ramifications for the close combat that is going on.

i see where the idea comes from but soemone should have realsied that it could kill off power fists in normal squads, and make everyone take a power sword to be able to defend themselves...

and in some cases killing the squad leader does nothing at all...

:rolleyes:

Memnos
05-07-2012, 13:30
Okay so basically a squad of 10 banshees assaulting Tac marines can go either way now. And that's not a nerf to Banshees of monumental proportions.

1) You're ignoring the fact that newly disembarked Banshees are are a squishy, high-priority target for more than just the unit they're assaulting. Re-run your mathhammer with a couple squads shooting them and re-post.

2) You're ignoring the fact that to pull this off they have to use a now-fragile, extremely overpriced transport and put it in harm's way.

Sure. I'll rerun my mathhammer as long as the Eldar player is using a few squads of his own.

Let's take equivalent points in Dire Avengers and a Farseer and have them unleash 2 shots a round, rerolling to hit and to wound. No Exarch.

Same points, and if the mathhammer comes out, you'll agree they're a decent choice? Because now you're putting in the Eldar's synergies they're so good at?

Just to let you know, since they're high priority, I'm going to draw an Aegis Defence line vertically through the board(It's cheap) and have the Banshees running through there. Heck. I'm not even going to take the transport in this case, I'm so generous.

Lessee... 2 Tactical Squads kitted out work out to be about 3 full units of naked Dire Avengers.

If 2 of them are Guided and Doomed, that's 24 shots each. That's almost 20 hits, 15 wounds, 5 dead marines. The last gets 16 hits, 8 wounds, another 2.66 dead.

That's 7.66 dead in the first round. Last of the first squad dead in the second round, 5 of the second one dead. Wiped out 3rd without the Banshees even showing up.

Assuming the Marines go first. 4 shots with Plasmaguns, 2.66 hits, about 2.2 wounds, Banshees go to ground for a 2+ save and about 1/3rd of a wound goes through. 16 other shots, 10.66 hits, 6.88 wounds, about 1 1/3rd dead. So about 1-2 dead in the first round. A little more than half that the second round, next to nothing the third round. 3-4 Banshees dead, all Marines dead.

Wow! You were right to include other units in it. Since the Banshees were such high priority, the Marines got wiped out easily by the Dire Avengers.

Iskandar
05-07-2012, 13:35
We have pre-measuring now. Disembarking banshees at long range can be countered by Marines simply moving back the correct amount and shooting. Banshees running around on the map on foot is foolish. But not foolish for long because they get vaporized so fast.

I think we're straying from the point I was making. Point is, given the new rules, if you steam up to a tactical squad with an non assault vehicle transporting assault passengers, there's something flawed in your movement phase.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 13:45
I think we're straying from the point I was making. Point is, given the new rules, if you steam up to a tactical squad with an non assault vehicle transporting assault passengers, there's something flawed in your movement phase.

I agree, it doesn't work very well. Neither does disembarking at long range. And it's because Wave Serpents are ineffective in transporting the Eldar codex and priced for a game where they were effective at that task.

And Banshees were hurt far too much by the disembarking rules. T4/3+ power armor is shafted far less by the changes since they're far more survivable out in the open.

Chapters Unwritten
05-07-2012, 13:57
I think it's all in the player attitude, which is sadly mostly rotten.

At my club, that aforementioned sergeant vs. the avatar challenge would be considered awesome and epic and the results of which, should they be surprising, will be remembered for weeks.

My first experience with a challenge was very cool, too. I charged a Chaplain and Vulkan attached to one another (their unit had long since died off) with my Lone Wolf. Instead of Vulkan stepping up, the enemy sent in the Chaplain (armed with a power fist), much to the chagrin of our spectators. The Lone Wolf got off a wound that instant-deathed the Chappy, and Vulkan ended up fleeing from the combat. When he regrouped, the player again used the extra movement to try and avoid my Lone Wolf, which drew a ragged choir of laughter from the onlookers. Eventually, Vulkan assaulted a depleted Grey Hunter squad, the leader of which (a PF Wolf Guard) managed to instant-death him with a lucky hit from the power fist after he miraculously whiffed all his attacks.

He later killed my Lone Wolf and the heroic Wolf Guard with sniper fire from across the map, which again entertained the crowd due to the seeming motive of cowardice.

Now, you can re-read that story as a numbers guy and get pissed that I got to instant death to characters and call it "uncinematic" or what have you. To us, it was an awesome experience seeing my Lone Wolf terrify Vulkan only to have him meet his end by a Power Fist Wolf Guard whilst distracted from my Lone Wolf chasing him. That story will become a thing of legacy for a few weeks at our club; but to other people they are just going to go "that's dumb it shouldn't have happened." Well, to that I say, Custer was supposed to win, the Spartans weren't supposed to hold Thermopylae, the allies probably weren't supposed to take the beach and the Soviets weren't supposed to hold the line at Stalingrad either. The greatest stories in battle are the most unlikely. The challenges mechanic, to some people, will be a thing you game "I challenge you hur hur now you can't get combat res bonus by killing my squadmates"... but that is all mental. Somewhere someone IS going to kill a Chaos Lord with a guardsmen's bayonet and it is going to be a memorable event that changes the course of the game when it happens.

It's all a matter of perspective. I consider it pretty awesome, especially because the visual that it gave us and the almost definitive narrative element was something that has been sorely lacking in 5th.

Iskandar
05-07-2012, 14:17
I agree, it doesn't work very well. Neither does disembarking at long range. And it's because Wave Serpents are ineffective in transporting the Eldar codex and priced for a game where they were effective at that task.

And Banshees were hurt far too much by the disembarking rules. T4/3+ power armor is shafted far less by the changes.

It's riskier but then so is practically everything else but shooting now. Honestly, I thought mechdar in 5th was already quite risky. The good thing now is that you can disembark at medium range and, if you aren't close enough to charge already, use the Wave Serpent as mobile cover from likely sources of fire. With Focus Fire you can try to bait him to shoot at your Banshees and take some collateral damage:

5th ed: See 1 model of the entire squad, can shoot the lot
6th ed: See 0-3 models of the entire squad, can only focus fire on those models (pg12 for LoS, 18 for FF). Yes he could always elect to move away or into LOS but chances are, if he does the former you're likely to catch up with him and if he does the latter you're more likely to charge him.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't exactly ideal, but it's not an auto lose.


I think it's all in the player attitude, which is sadly mostly rotten.

At my club, that aforementioned sergeant vs. the avatar challenge would be considered awesome and epic and the results of which, should they be surprising, will be remembered for weeks.

I love epic duels like that. Even if the underdog loses the balls of the sergeant have got to be admired. That said, this isn't new. In 5th I basically challenged a hidden Librarian in a Death Company to a duel with a 6 man CCS w/ Power Fist by charging with the closest (a melta grunt) then moving the Fist to base contact with the Librarian. The only DC models in base contact were the Thunder Hammer and 2 generic guys. Somehow the Death Company only managed to waste the squad, the Libby failed to wound. My last man standing with the Fist squished the Libby then, failing a morale test, ran off the table. The look on the other guy's face was priceless!

djhowitzer
05-07-2012, 14:23
memnos:
three units of dire avengers are the same points as 2 units of tac marines - that i am fine with

if they are guided and doomed - you just added a 150 point character. so lets make that 2 units of dire avengers, shall we?

that is not the only example of your numbers that dont add up.

Memnos
05-07-2012, 14:30
memnos:
three units of dire avengers are the same points as 2 units of tac marines - that i am fine with

if they are guided and doomed - you just added a 150 point character. so lets make that 2 units of dire avengers, shall we?

that is not the only example of your numbers that dont add up.

Care to elaborate? If you eliminate the 3rd unit of Dire Avengers, then the Marines lose 5 models a turn just to the Dire Avenger shooting and are killing 1-2 of the Howling Banshees and less every turn. The third did next to nothing.

The Eldar are a highly tricky army to use with lots of fantastic synergies. I'm getting the feeling, however, that you're simply complaining for the joy of complaining. I have no doubt that your current army will not work as well as it did before. You will need to use multiple threats and those synergies you're used to rather than counting on an indestructible vehicle.

How many threads have you turned in to an, "I am so screwed" post? How many more do you need? If none, then start a tactics thread and people will help you. If a whole lot more, then just recognize that you're just blowing off steam because you don't like that your specific Eldar army will face more difficulties.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 14:44
What's this Eldar synergy stuff? Eldar synergy begins and ends with a few psychic powers, most of which other armies also now have. If anything there's less synergy now that mechdar is dead.

Memnos
05-07-2012, 14:49
What's this Eldar synergy stuff? Eldar synergy begins and ends with a few psychic powers, most of which other armies also now have. If anything there's less synergy now that mechdar is dead.

I'm puzzled. You mean you've lost fast moving, high armor models like Warp Spiders that can engage shooting units that aren't kitted out for hand to hand so that your shooting units can concentrate on his hand to hand units?

You've lost Eldar Rangers abilities to pick out models that can challenge, letting your hand to hand specialist characters mop up?

You've lost upgrades like the warlock that lets you specialize units for specific roles?

I had no idea they invalidated so much of your codex, mercury.

Reinholt
05-07-2012, 14:59
On the topic of challenges and tyranids, which I saw earlier... I consider it to be a huge buff to the Tyranids, actually. Now you can mulch that super obnoxious powerfist toting sergeant / otherwise obnoxious hiding single character while the rest of the squad bounces harmlessly off your massive bio-engineered superpredator.

Sure, it's sort of weird for a hive tyrant to care that some light snack, check that, sergeant or squad leader is attempting to attract his attention, but it brings as much to the 'nids as it removes.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 15:06
I'm puzzled. You mean you've lost fast moving, high armor models like Warp Spiders that can engage shooting units that aren't kitted out for hand to hand so that your shooting units can concentrate on his hand to hand units?

You've lost Eldar Rangers abilities to pick out models that can challenge, letting your hand to hand specialist characters mop up?

You've lost upgrades like the warlock that lets you specialize units for specific roles?

I had no idea they invalidated so much of your codex, mercury.


Please explain why that's any more synergy than other armies. There's this myth that Eldar have some kind of terrific specialists and synergy between them. But when I look at GK or Space Wolves I see them doing the same thing. Except they can take specialists like Long Fangs or whatever that are actually worth their points, giving them even more room to pack synergy into their list. I can take 35-pt Dark Reapers (with 70-pt Exarch) or mostly-worthless suicidal specialists like shining spears but they eat up a ton of points and end up being no more specialized or synergistic than other armies' specialists.

Heaps of other armies have access to the two Eldar psychic disciplines so there's nothing special there. In most cases they can even use those disciplines better than we can.

Memnos
05-07-2012, 15:11
Please explain why that's any more synergy than other armies. There's this myth that Eldar have some kind of terrific specialists and synergy between them. But when I look at GK or Space Wolves I see them doing the same thing. Except they can take specialists like Long Fangs or whatever that are actually worth their points, giving them even more room to pack synergy into their list. I can take 35-pt Dark Reapers (with 70-pt Exarch) or mostly-worthless suicidal specialists like shining spears but they eat up a ton of points and end up being no more specialized or synergistic than other armies' specialists.

If that's the way you feel about the army, then you probably shouldn't be playing it.

Iskandar
05-07-2012, 15:13
I daresay they've fiddled (not necessarily removed) more with the synergy of Dark Eldar than of Eldar, mostly because the situation's mostly the same. Competitive lists I've seen in 5th often prefer to take Harlequins to Banshees. Pathfinders/Rangers are still among the best snipers in the game, made even better. Eldar Psychic abilities are improved with Guide getting a buff AND a points decrease (sub Eldritch Storm out for Divination's Primaris). War Walkers were always made of paper so their HP2 fragility doesn't make a damned bit of difference. FDs are still pretty much Meltavets in tights. Not a lot has really changed...

mercury14
05-07-2012, 17:14
If that's the way you feel about the army, then you probably shouldn't be playing it.

If I feel my army has about the same synergy as other armies I shouldn't be playing it? :confused:

Lord Cook
05-07-2012, 18:32
In over a hundred games I had yet to see a space marine captain that was not a special character.
Why cause he would just get duffed over in combat by a hidden power fist and be a waste of points.

Now he can save his own life by smacking that Sargent/nob exarch like the little bitch he is and be useful in later rounds.

Pretty much this. To everyone complaining that their hidden power fists are no longer viable, think about the long list of units that that same hidden powerfist has destroyd over the years. Take Wraithlords for example. They're terrible in combat. Why? Because they just die to hidden fists. Well no longer! I don't even play Eldar, but good hunting to the chaps. Congratulations on your very expensive Av3+ monster now being a viable combat threat to the average adversary. Welcome to the New World.

Balerion
05-07-2012, 19:15
I'm tempted to write a "cinematic" short story about the Imperial Guard sergeant who fails his Fear test and then, somehow, still has the nerve to challenge a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant to single combat.

In my opinion they botched the challenge rules by not including a few things (some of which are directly from WHFB).

#1 Allow Independent Characters to refuse challenges from Characters, and possibly vice versa
#2 Allow Monstrous Creatures to refuse all challenges
#3 Allow Overkill wounds from challenges

Battleworthy Arts
05-07-2012, 19:19
If I feel my army has about the same synergy as other armies I shouldn't be playing it? :confused:

If you feel that way, and it upsets you, then you shouldn't be playing it.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 19:31
If you feel that way, and it upsets you, then you shouldn't be playing it.

I have no idea why you think the synergy thing is upsetting to me. All I did was comment on it. :wtf:

Chapters Unwritten
05-07-2012, 19:58
Allowing overkill wounds would take the entire point of the challenges away. I think it would be much better to make the unit suffer an added LD penalty of some kind. Though they technically already do; kill the Sarge gives you +1 combat resolution but also typically means the highest LD model is dead, which is going to often be another difference onf 1.

I think people are reading too deeply into it. As I said, something that is intended as cinematic is dreadfully dependent on the attitudes of the players using it. You could see the duel as cinematic or you could see it as foolish in the greater overarching strategy of the game, if you're the numbers-crunching type.

Dylius
05-07-2012, 20:12
Maybe the rules writers were playing Dawn Of War: Winter Assault when the Chaplain single handedly beats a bloodthirster in hand to hand combat in a cut scene, and thought "Wow! That would be really cool if we put it into the game..."

Inquisitor Engel
05-07-2012, 20:25
Maybe the rules writers were playing Dawn Of War: Winter Assault when the Chaplain single handedly beats a bloodthirster in hand to hand combat in a cut scene, and thought "Wow! That would be really cool if we put it into the game..."

You say that like you haven't seen it happen in a game... Many things are possible when it comes to the dice gods...

I once saw a couple of Fire Warriors win a combat and wipe out a full squad of hardened Imperial Guard Veterans.

Balerion
05-07-2012, 20:31
Allowing overkill wounds would take the entire point of the challenges away. I think it would be much better to make the unit suffer an added LD penalty of some kind. Though they technically already do; kill the Sarge gives you +1 combat resolution but also typically means the highest LD model is dead, which is going to often be another difference onf 1.

Overkill = additional leadership penalties.

That's the terminology employed in WHFB. Overkill means the additional wounds caused in the challenge (up to a maximum of 5) are added to the Ld penalty of the losing unit. The challenger is not only killed, he's killed several times over, ergo he is overkilled. No other members of the unit outside of the challenge are killed.

Odin
05-07-2012, 20:32
Sounds a lot like Warhammer. Champions do all the challenges, leaving Lords to wade through units. Combat characters must have a cheap Champion in the same unit or risk wasting their efforts in a challenge against a cheap Champion; non-combat characters must have a cheap Champion in the unit or risk being sent to the back, as they can't possibly compete in a challenge against even a half decent combat character. End result: challenges are never, ever close-matched fights between high level combat characters, which is supposed to be what they are for.

It won't surprise me if 40K turns out the same, though I've yet to play a game of 6th.

Yup. Challenges are a joke in Warhammer.

mercury14
05-07-2012, 20:51
How long until someone complains about the brokenness of challenges versus Seer Councils?

Dylius
05-07-2012, 20:59
You say that like you haven't seen it happen in a game... Many things are possible when it comes to the dice gods...

I once saw a couple of Fire Warriors win a combat and wipe out a full squad of hardened Imperial Guard Veterans.

Indeed. I was just commenting as people said it was like they were trying to go for a "cinematic" feel, and you can't get much more cinematic than in a video game (or film).

Caitsidhe
05-07-2012, 21:52
I think the Challenge rules are idiotic, to say the least and just further push this edition to be about opposing gun lines.

ewar
05-07-2012, 22:12
You win and keep on winning. It's close, but equal points on equal points, you win. And that's against a plasma squad, which is basically the best you could get. That's you being unsupported and unaugmented.

At this point, you can simply yell "Mathhammer!" and pretend that odds don't mean anything, in which case my argument will simply be "Okay. Then let's not use mathhammer. You're facing a unit of Space Marines - Equal points. You footslog it - No cover. They miss every time and you hit and wound every time with your shuriken pistols and they fail every save. HURRAY! You won and they're still good." or you can make the argument that equal points of Space Marines should be massacred by Howling Banshees every single time and that they shouldn't be able to shoot at all.

In that case, I'd say "Grow a pair. You can't always get what you want."

Oh dear, the internet just broke under the weight of common sense expressed in this post.

Zombiecrackers
05-07-2012, 22:36
Well my first and so far only challenge was my commissar who took on a friends ork warboss you can all guess what happened >.< it was manly for the lulz though nothing serous

Keep
05-07-2012, 23:25
On the topic of challenges and tyranids, which I saw earlier... I consider it to be a huge buff to the Tyranids, actually. Now you can mulch that super obnoxious powerfist toting sergeant / otherwise obnoxious hiding single character while the rest of the squad bounces harmlessly off your massive bio-engineered superpredator.

Sure, it's sort of weird for a hive tyrant to care that some light snack, check that, sergeant or squad leader is attempting to attract his attention, but it brings as much to the 'nids as it removes.
Well, but the Space Marine player will reconsider his options... so instead of a Fist Sergeant, you will face the cheapest sergeant option possible. If the unit losses combat and flees, it likely rallies, shoots with Plasma at your tyrant, gets charged again, snapshots with plasma once again. And this is just one lowly 5 man squad that you need 2 entire turns to get rid of.

Iskandar
05-07-2012, 23:32
How long until someone complains about the brokenness of challenges versus Seer Councils?

I am Spartacus, no I am Spartacus. *Rolls a 1*. No that is Spartacus.

djhowitzer
06-07-2012, 00:37
i am looking forward to launching challenges against power fist wielding space marine sergeants with my wraithlords. and the rest of the unit wont even be able to run away because they all have krak grenades, so they cant claim the "we cant hurt it" rule. boy am i glad i picked up a wraithseer.

Veteran Sergeant
06-07-2012, 01:00
You mean the incarnation of the arrogant god of war of an arrogant race wouldn't rejoice in the opportunity to prove his prowess by demonstrating his superior skill? He is the god or war, not of slaughter.Being someone who is quite arrogant and well aware of his own capability, education, and training, I can tell you that I wouldn't even bother responding to individual challenges of people well beneath me. It would be a waste of time. ;)

And I'm not nearly as godlike as an actual avatar of a god. No, I don't think the Avatar would even bother with dueling every scrub who shook a fist at him. He'd just bowl right through him. Especially if wasting time with a duel is contrary to his objectives.

Veteran Sergeant
06-07-2012, 01:02
Well, but the Space Marine player will reconsider his options... so instead of a Fist Sergeant, you will face the cheapest sergeant option possible. If the unit losses combat and flees, it likely rallies, shoots with Plasma at your tyrant, gets charged again, snapshots with plasma once again. And this is just one lowly 5 man squad that you need 2 entire turns to get rid of.I think we're going to see the rise of Storm Shields too. Turtle Sergeants whose objective is to issue challenges and then weather the storm against bigger characters while the other Marines attempt to destroy the other squad.

kane40k
06-07-2012, 01:32
Isnt the Answer simple. . . Send in support? Get the job done proper?

Ruination Drinker
06-07-2012, 01:50
Isnt the Answer simple. . . Send in support? Get the job done proper?

Indeed this may be the case. There's nothing stopping someone from taking 5 Terminators and Lysander in a Crusader then separating Lysander from the squad so they can assault a unit separately. I've seen that done a few time back in 5th ed to some effect. It might be the norm these days.

BEARO
06-07-2012, 02:19
Maybe the rules writers were playing Dawn Of War: Winter Assault when the Chaplain single handedly beats a bloodthirster in hand to hand combat in a cut scene, and thought "Wow! That would be really cool if we put it into the game..."

It was the Force Commander.

Chem-Dog
06-07-2012, 02:36
I wonder what people actually think "Cinematic" means. It's not like rolling the dice can actually create a vivid duel between two fighters, you have to do that yourself with your imagination, possibly a little narrative.

If you're issuing challenges there is very little chance of you losing you're the villain of the piece, using assured supremacy to carry the day and ruthlessly crushing everyone in your path.
If you're challenging combat monsters in the slim hope of stopping them before they chew through your army even if there's a good chance of loosing the challenger into the deal, that's what heroes do!


All Challenges look something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=P7GeisRaias&NR=1)*.
If you're Challenging models for an easy win, you're Megatron.
If you're Challenging models to take out a dire threat, you're Prime.
If you're using Glorious Intervention to save your beloved leader, You're Hotrod.
And if you're declining Challenges and lurking behind the fight, You're Starscream.


I'll never turn down a Challenge. I might get a thousand Veteran Sergeants killed. But nobody ever remembers those. Everyone remembers that time when that one Sergeant managed to best the Daemon Prince/Warboss/Archon.


*Hammer of Wrath @ 0:28 :D :D :D

TheDoctor
06-07-2012, 03:05
If you're issuing challenges there is very little chance of you losing you're the villain of the piece, using assured supremacy to carry the day and ruthlessly crushing everyone in your path

And that's a problem how? :D

Chem-Dog
06-07-2012, 03:21
And that's a problem how? :D

It's not a problem, but in a game with two players, there are going to be times when you're the Antagonist and time when you're the Protagonist. Cinematic doesn't mean every guy in you army is Neo or Aragorn, sometimes you're the Smith(s). And for every plucky hero fighting against the odds and winning, there's a whole bunch who don't survive the effort.

40K's single most important "historical" duel is a perfect example. The Emperor managed to defeat Horus, at massive personal cost, and then only with the help of that plucky but ultimately doomed Sergeant Sanguinius.

big squig
06-07-2012, 04:33
Yeah, I've only played 4 games as well, but in my 4th game, every squad of orks that charged my opponent's unit with his lord in it had to make the same stupid choice. Either decline the challenge, and lose the nob's ability to fight that round...or accept the challenge and get pummeled by a necron lord because my nob has a powerclaw.

Sort of a win win for the necron player...

TheDoctor
06-07-2012, 04:39
Yeah, I've only played 4 games as well, but in my 4th game, every squad of orks that charged my opponent's unit with his lord in it had to make the same stupid choice. Either decline the challenge, and lose the nob's ability to fight that round...or accept the challenge and get pummeled by a necron lord because my nob has a powerclaw.

Sort of a win win for the necron player...

So possibly charge him with 2 squads? Or just refuse, because shouldn't orks pummel necrons in CC, even without the assistance of a nob?

daboarder
06-07-2012, 05:12
You realise that is the sergeant challenges your avatar in the first round of combat that is a GOOD thing for you, stops you beating the **** out of the unit and forcing them to fall back resulting in you getting shot to pieces in the opponent shooting phase, its basically pulling punches and minimizing the grenade risk.

Squallish
06-07-2012, 05:47
There seems to be a lot of people misreading how challenges work, so just to clarify:

Wounds overflow to other models (as long as the character is within 2" of someone else in base contact) once the challenged character is killed.

Nothing in the challenge rules change the way wounds are allocated (base contact first, then closest).

Nothing in the independent character or unit assault rules say you must be in base contact to attack (unlike in 5th). You simply must be within 2" of someone who is in base contact to swing, so characters can swing from the 2nd rank of troops no problem.

Therefore, when you are in a challenge and you kill that 10pt naked sergeant with your first wound, ALL your other wounds apply to the rest of the enemy unit.

Cheap useless characters will be just that in challenges.

daboarder
06-07-2012, 05:50
There seems to be a lot of people misreading how challenges work, so just to clarify:

Wounds overflow to models within 2" of the characters once the character is killed.

Nothing in the challenge rules change the way wounds are allocated (base contact first, then closest within 2").

Nothing in the independent character or unit assault rules say you must be in base contact to attack (unlike in 5th). You simply must be within 2" of someone who is in base contact to swing, so characters can swing from the 2nd rank of troops no problem.

Therefore, when you are in a challenge and you kill that 10pt naked sergeant with your first wound, ALL your other wounds apply to the rest of the enemy unit.

Cheap useless characters will be just that in challenges.

hmmm I think TH SS sergeants just became the way to go, roll those saves one by one till you fail give you a decent chance of survival, then smack the character in the face.

rocdocta
06-07-2012, 07:06
There seems to be a lot of people misreading how challenges work, so just to clarify:

Wounds overflow to other models (as long as the character is within 2" of someone else in base contact) once the challenged character is killed.

Nothing in the challenge rules change the way wounds are allocated (base contact first, then closest).

Nothing in the independent character or unit assault rules say you must be in base contact to attack (unlike in 5th). You simply must be within 2" of someone who is in base contact to swing, so characters can swing from the 2nd rank of troops no problem.

Therefore, when you are in a challenge and you kill that 10pt naked sergeant with your first wound, ALL your other wounds apply to the rest of the enemy unit.

Cheap useless characters will be just that in challenges.

i missed it. thanks.

ToXikyogHurt
06-07-2012, 07:07
roll those saves one by one till you fail
That's the correct procedure regardless. It doesn't increase your odds of survival at all, it just determines how many wounds can be assigned elsewhere.




Nothing in the independent character or unit assault rules say you must be in base contact to attack


Oh, wait, there is actually a potential problem here. If you kill your opponent with a Hammer of Wrath attack, you're then no longer in B2B at the next I step. There's then no way for a solo character to get back into B2B with anything in that assault phase, because of the challenge; combat ends from no models in B2B - despite the fact that you're actually literally still in B2B... Fail that first swing and you're fine to keep on inflicting damage though.

Sami
06-07-2012, 08:23
No rulebook in front of me, but couldn't you use the pile-in move at your initiative to B2B something?

theJ
06-07-2012, 08:44
It was the Force Commander.

Negative

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re8QsahLcpc

There was no Force Commander present in Winter Assault.

ToXikyogHurt
06-07-2012, 08:53
The challenge rules preclude you from being B2B with anything else for that turn, no amount of movement can put you back into B2B with anything.

squeekenator
06-07-2012, 09:41
Negative


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re8QsahLcpc

There was no Force Commander present in Winter Assault.

As I recall, the Force Commander is the only one who can get that sync-kill in actual gameplay, which is probably where the confusion comes from.

Sureshot05
06-07-2012, 10:26
40K's single most important "historical" duel is a perfect example. The Emperor managed to defeat Horus, at massive personal cost, and then only with the help of that plucky but ultimately doomed Sergeant Sanguinius.

So after all this time we learn that Horus is calling for a nerf on the challenge rules. "If I only I could have allocated my attacks to the Emperor..."

hawo0313
06-07-2012, 10:38
just wondering alot of people are using the example that a challenging sergeant can save a squad from an avatar at the cost of his life and that this is unfair

the counter to this was that the unit will not flee due to the avatar only doing one kill and this is correct

however in many cases the sergeant has the highest ld and has now been removed and the squad lost by 1 so for most -2 modifier. additiionally in the specific case of SM they have combat tactic so the lose a sergeant fall back regroup automatically with ATSKNF and shoot the avatar next turn of course i havent seen FAQ's or whatnot so dont no if SM can still access those rules

ToXikyogHurt
06-07-2012, 10:54
fall back regroup automatically with ATSKNF

Good odds on an Avatar catching marines in a sweeping advance. They would instantly regroup though, so actually go nowhere.

rickie8437
06-07-2012, 12:19
Because it's three times the size of a Space Marine and armed with a sword twice the size of a Space Marine and if it wants to smash lots of Space Marines they should have to actually try to stop it, not have one Sergeant going "DON'T WORRY MEN! Stand back, I will sacrifice myself to save you!"

yeah but isnt this heroic? and fits with the whole image of a space marine?

or any squad leader, that leads from the front

Apologist
06-07-2012, 12:36
What I like about this new rule system is that it encourages the avatar (read: any supercharged combat character) not to go bowling straight in alone.

The new rules encourage super-characters to be supported in combat:
1) Softening up the unit beforehand is a good idea not only because of casualties you might cause, but also potentially picking out potential challengers through focus fire.
2) Allowing defending units only one overwatch response in a turn means that either the character or their supporting unit can go in first to protect the other.
3) Only one challenge per combat per round means that supporting characters can accept 'unworthy' challenges.
4) Individual models charging large squads and being challenged suffer the fact that the challenger will have many rerolls.

This has the meta effect of having a leader actually leading models, rather than (as before) running around and doing the work of an entire unit on his own. The same applies to big monsters. Flying them off alone will mean they get held up. Sending them in as support to your troops means they'll crash through the enemy – just as they do in the background.

The challenges rules are an excellent addition to the game, in my opinion, as they add a level of complexity to theoryhammer.
Can you stop a rampaging [combat character/monster] with a [lowly squad leader]? Yes, by the bald reading of the rules.

Are you likely to, once people adapt their tactics to have the [insert combat character/monster] leading a larger offensive, as depicted in the background material? No.

mercury14
06-07-2012, 14:26
What I like about this new rule system is that it encourages the avatar (read: any supercharged combat character) not to go bowling straight in alone.

The new rules encourage super-characters to be supported in combat:
1) Softening up the unit beforehand is a good idea not only because of casualties you might cause, but also potentially picking out potential challengers through focus fire.
2) Allowing defending units only one overwatch response in a turn means that either the character or their supporting unit can go in first to protect the other.
3) Only one challenge per combat per round means that supporting characters can accept 'unworthy' challenges.
4) Individual models charging large squads and being challenged suffer the fact that the challenger will have many rerolls.

This has the meta effect of having a leader actually leading models, rather than (as before) running around and doing the work of an entire unit on his own. The same applies to big monsters. Flying them off alone will mean they get held up. Sending them in as support to your troops means they'll crash through the enemy just as they do in the background.

The challenges rules are an excellent addition to the game, in my opinion, as they add a level of complexity to theoryhammer.
Can you stop a rampaging [combat character/monster] with a [lowly squad leader]? Yes, by the bald reading of the rules.

Are you likely to, once people adapt their tactics to have the [insert combat character/monster] leading a larger offensive, as depicted in the background material? No.


I agree that it sounds cool. But in a game where we're only likely to have about 5 turns to grab objectives, people will just manipulate the system and metagame. The fact is, rampaging demon-gods like the Avatar are waaaay too easily neutralized by challenges. If the game was 9 turns I'd probably agree with you. But the fact is by the time the slow Avatar reaches an objective he can be stalled out on turn 5 by a worthless no-name character with 1% of his battle ability. That's the opposite of dramatic. It's anti-climactic and rather absurd.

And on the flip side I've seen a lot of battlefield bullying going on. The superior assault army just challenges the other army's HQ (which may be powerful but not CC powerful), causing him to be neutralized. This just makes the gap between rich and poor CC armies wider. The rich get richer. I don't know about you but I don't think we needed armies like Tau to get even worse in CC, relatively speaking. But that's what happened.

Apologist
06-07-2012, 14:32
*Shrugs* Horses for courses, I guess. 6th edition has undoubtedly handed more power to an army's basic troops – something I very much support – through the improvements to small arms, abilities to pick out specialists etc. I think the challenge system's ability to sideline lone unsupported characters is another subtle boost to large units of basic troops. I think that's a laudable change: if it means more games involve Troops over the other force organsation slots, then that will lead to better games – in my opinion – because it'll get the tabletop game looking more like the stories of the Dark Millennium I read about and see in my imagination.

mercury14
06-07-2012, 15:45
*Shrugs* Horses for courses, I guess. 6th edition has undoubtedly handed more power to an army's basic troops – something I very much support – through the improvements to small arms, abilities to pick out specialists etc. I think the challenge system's ability to sideline lone unsupported characters is another subtle boost to large units of basic troops. I think that's a laudable change: if it means more games involve Troops over the other force organsation slots, then that will lead to better games – in my opinion – because it'll get the tabletop game looking more like the stories of the Dark Millennium I read about and see in my imagination.

And I support that as well. But GW went about it in a problematic way. MCs now have to slowly walk across the map just to get tied up by a cheapo naked sgt? There aren't enough turns in the game for that. I'm not sure they needed such a major nerf.

angelofrage
06-07-2012, 15:50
Challenges were obviously introduced by a Necron player as a way to stop people avoiding Mind Shackle Scarabs by canny assault positioning. Because if anything they, needed a buff.

Could be improved with overkill.

I miss hero hammer.

Squallish
06-07-2012, 17:07
That's the correct procedure regardless. It doesn't increase your odds of survival at all, it just determines how many wounds can be assigned elsewhere.

Oh, wait, there is actually a potential problem here. If you kill your opponent with a Hammer of Wrath attack, you're then no longer in B2B at the next I step. There's then no way for a solo character to get back into B2B with anything in that assault phase, because of the challenge; combat ends from no models in B2B - despite the fact that you're actually literally still in B2B... Fail that first swing and you're fine to keep on inflicting damage though.

Characters do not need to be in base contact to attack. They simply need an ally model within 2" in base contact, like every other model.

Also of note, as written, you use majority WS and T of the unit for the character in the challenge, just like normal. Hah. T6 Eldrad.

ToXikyogHurt
06-07-2012, 17:55
They simply need an ally model within 2" in base contact

I did say 'solo character'. Yes, it's not a problem if your character has some meatshie- uh, 'help'.
T6 Eldrad is not as scary as the thought of an allied T6 Archon...


MCs now have to slowly walk across the map just to get tied up by a cheapo naked sgt?

You can't challenge a normal MC, only a character one. I don't think anything makes them slower than they were? Fleet ones can't run + assault but they do get re-rolls for charge distance and that seems like a wash to me.


Mind Shackle Scarabs

'Flip a coin. If it's heads your opponent takes a wound and misses a go'.

mercury14
06-07-2012, 19:22
You can't challenge a normal MC, only a character one. I don't think anything makes them slower than they were? Fleet ones can't run + assault but they do get re-rolls for charge distance and that seems like a wash to me.



It the MC (talking about character ones of course) have to waste a turn in a LOLchallenge versus a sgt, well that's one more turn it takes them to march to an objective and clear it off.

Ruination Drinker
06-07-2012, 20:14
And I support that as well. But GW went about it in a problematic way. MCs now have to slowly walk across the map just to get tied up by a cheapo naked sgt? There aren't enough turns in the game for that. I'm not sure they needed such a major nerf.

It's worse than that if you don't want to get tied by the Sgt. You have to designate specialty fire with Precision Shots to take out him out. There might be lots of Sgt. Light squads running about because of combat squads, but you can expect those guys to be chilling inside the Fort of R.

IMO: Challenges should take place immediately until resolved and then normal game resumes. I agree that there just aren't enough turns in the game to bother with the nonsense... it's just a cheap stalling tactic.

EDIT: Being able to tie an objective up for an extra turn with a butt wipe sgt. will be the difference in a lot of games.