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Hashulaman
05-07-2012, 11:08
With the launch of 6th edition, CSM, while being nerfed in some areas, have become much better in others. Nurgle in particular. Especially with Epidemius. Kairos with Tzeentch terminators as well. though. When they get their update, if the power creep seems to be indication, CSM will be on the level of GK and Necrons.

Few if anyone saw it coming. Necrons came out and it was seen as an okay army, pretty balanced and too OP at worst. We knew that Necrons were made with 6th in mind and they were pretty balanced. So, it was not uncommon to think that they would stay that way in 6th. We were wrong, dear God were we wrong. They got broken to high Hell, and it seems only a 6th edition codex can match them evenly. (GK was made for 6th as well though) Enter CSM, the first codex made exclusively for 6th. The power creep has not gone away and will only continue. You are certain to see Necrons and/or GK at most tournies, and they will win, unless you have a real good player beat them, or a real ***** fail at GK and Necrons.

First off, in the fluff CSM have gotten their own special section, given special attention. In 5th It was all about loyalist marines, and look what happened. Every Marine Codex that came out got more powerful than the last(SW I don't know about but BA was OP and of course GK). With 6th edition focusing on chaos, it is a safe bet that Chaos will also get "special attention" and made into the greatest threat to the galaxy that they are made out to be in the 6th edition fluff. Chaos has always been popular, right behind SM. Just that Gav Thorpe screwed us CSM players over with that BS codex.

Second; the previously mentioned power creep and how it has not gone away. Yea Necrons were balanced, if not slightly OP. Along comes 5th though and they get so broken its boggles the mind. It would be a pipe dream to think that CSM won't "balanced" when compared to Necrons and GK(depending on whether you think GK got nerfed that badly). Of course if there is going to be balance, it will be to where each 6th edition codex that comes out will be "balanced", however it will be when compared to other 6th edition Codices. You might as well say Necrons are a 6th edition codex, they were made for 6th in mind. Noone knew how much of a jump between 5th and 6th would be in a power creep. 6th edition armies may indeed be balanced, but not to 5th edition armies. So if any of you play an army that isn't GK, Necrons, or CSM when it updates, then You are probably going to hate the GK/Necron/CSM in the future till your codex gets updated.

Third; Money. Lets face it, complain all you want about Mat Ward' broken armies. That isn't stopping people from buying them. Despite the price hike people are still shelling out obscene amounts of money to buy broken armies, I've have heard the hate for GW boil over to people telling others to boycott them. That was probably the STUPIDEST idea I have ever heard in the realm of wargaming. As long as people are going to buy entire armies so they can kick everyone's ass, GW can hike the prices all they want. SOMEONE will pay for them, there are alot of impulse buyers out there. GK and Necrons obliterate everyone else. Guess what armies have the most sales as of now. I know Space marines are still the all time best sellers, but you have to admit when a broken army comes out, sales for that army do not go down at all until the next broken army comes out, hence the power creep IMO. It's all about keeping the WAAC players to buy, buy, buy. And apparently there are enough of them, or they are buying enough stuff to where those that are quitting because of this can go to Hell. GW has even been arrogant enough to raise the prices, believing that there are people who want to win so badly they do not care what the other players with older armies think. It looks like they may be right to an extent. AS long as they have broken armies, they will someone to buy them. When CSM comes out, you will see sales for CSM skyrocket. Not just because they got better, but that they are the New Grey Knights/Necrons. These people who jump on the bandwagon every time a new broken army comes out will keep GW afloat. If no one bought GK and Necrons, then maybe they'd smarten up.(doubtful) Yet they are given a reason to keep up with the power creep. Each Codex will come out and be more powerful than the next, and people will buy those models because they want to win, pure and simple. Then again, what I said about 6th Armies only balanced with other 6th armies, and steamrolling over 5th edition armies.

CSM was my first army for 40k. I have been a CSM player since September 2007. So, CSM's update gives me mixed feelings. On one hand I am excited that my army will be updated and that we will be far better than we are now. On the other, there is the idea that they will keep the power creep up and CSM will be crap again within a year or so. However, It will be fun while it lasts. Then there is idea of all these mentioned WAAC types playing chaos because you will rape everyone else that isn't GK or Necrons. There is the possibility those with much older codices are very good at their army, thing is the game will only be out a month or 2 by the time of my beloved CSM release so none of them will have enough expierience with 6th to get that good with their older army and those with armies tailor made for 6th(GK, Necrons, CSM) will have a huge advantage. By the time the next Codex after CSM comes out that will change, for the foreseeable future though.... I played CSM for years and have waited paitiently for their update. There will be vindication at their release, yet I know I am going to be hated because I play an army that will be as broken as Necrons or GK simply because the power creep is not going to stop anytime soon. The disdain I can deal with. It's all these others that jump onto CSM simply because they are THE army for the time, giving us true CSM players a bad name.

As I type this it is almost 6 AM, I am tired and my meds have kicked in, so this was probably not the best time to rant. Anyways, whether you agree with me or disagree about this subject, please voice your opinion.

Hulkster
05-07-2012, 11:15
There is only one way we will know.

When the book comes out and we have played a few games.

Before then it is a little bit pointless to dicuss whether power creep will continue. If it does then the worst thing to be would be the first codex as all other will be more powerful.

However with fantasy 8th the books have been relatively balanced. The only exception is the ogres and then most armies have some way of dealing with them. The only problem books are the ones from 7th.

I would say don't worry about it now, see what happens and then have another look at this thread and see what still applies.

Hashulaman
05-07-2012, 11:20
Apologies if I was being misleading. I am trying to get a discussion going not so much about whether people think if the power creep will continue, but also what do people think of the power creep continuing with CSM and no sign of balance at all. I, myself am not worried despite my post, I am more annoyed at any backlash that might happen. I still want opinions on the idea that CSM will be as broken as Necrons if not moreso, since the power creep seems to be going strong.

Hulkster
05-07-2012, 11:23
AS I said.

Until we get the first few 6th ed books we will not be able to judge power creep. The 6th ed books will likely be very different form all the 5th ed books, necrons included.

What I was trying to say is that we cannot know if there will be power creep or not until we have a few of the books.

Now I do not think power creep should ever exist, a little bit i think in inevitable. But like I said. They have managed to keep a lid on it in fantasy so far.

xerxeshavelock
05-07-2012, 11:40
Hmm. Not sure if your argument is quite right. I agree there is codex creep (some don't), but its a little too early to tell. Are Grey Knights and Necrons balanced against each other? If Necrons are doing well is it because they're broken, or are they just strong against the current meta (lots of vehicles). Then the most important question becomes will Chaos be balanced against them, or are you expecting them to blow those 2 armies away? As Hulkster said - the next codex will somewhat proove or disprove your theory.

Aliarzathanil
05-07-2012, 11:43
So now we complain about a codex being broken BEFORE it comes out? This should be a real time saver.

Hashulaman
05-07-2012, 11:45
Still, I would like to know what people think of CSM following the way of GK and most recently Necrons. Yet another army that is OP and people switching to them for the sheer purpose that they could be as powerful as Necrons/GK. I know many people were all kinds of pissed off that what was seen as a balanced codex became OP almost overnight. If CSM is the same way some people might quit the game. I know that this is to all be speculation until the Codex comes out, but this is to be a theoretical discussion about CSM being broken. It is quite possible that Necrons and GK were a fluke given that Ward wrote them, to my knowledge Kelly is writing CSM. Many people have hope it won't be like Necrons/GK, and it is quite possible it will not be like Necrons/GK. I would like to know if people think it will/won't be, why, and how they feel about if it was going to be like Necrons/GK. Not everyone complains, if however you think this is a stupid topic then don't read the thread.


If it disproves my theory, then so be it. I'm not trying to prove that Im going to be right or anything, I just wanted to know what people think of the possibility of CSM, as a 6th edition codex being balanced to 5th edition codex's, or if it will be up their with GK and Necrons, or even above them.

Beppo1234
05-07-2012, 11:50
power creep is a sound business strategy. That's all I have to say on the matter.

DruidNei
05-07-2012, 11:55
If balanced codex for CSM isn't possible (and GW likes to screw up) I would much prefer an OP one to another weak book. And I'm not even playing chaos. It would be in the fluff. Hundreds of years of fighting and servitude to the dark gods should get you some sweet rewards.

I hope for a true force to be reckoned with, more elite than it is now, with adequate point costs. I don't want to see CSM as whipping-boys of the emperor no more, even if it makes them OP.

Same goes for Eldar (and the rest of xenos too). Their arrogance is not matched by their firepower for a long time now, even less so in 6th edition.

shandy
05-07-2012, 11:58
CSM codex will be written in terms of the 6th edition so balance with 5th edition shouldn't really be a part of it's design.

That said personally I think with the 6th edition being out for less than a week it is a little bit early to be declaring "broken" armies already. People are still getting to grips with the rules and unless someone has been playing 24/7 I doubt anyone has an absolute handle on each army.

In time as things settle and stuff gets released we will be able to make informed decisions.

Hashulaman
05-07-2012, 12:06
I was wondering about if GK and Necrons were a sign to come of 6th, or if its Ward's doing alone and whoever is writing CSM(i think its Kelly) will not go that route. I personally think that GK and Necrons are a sign of things to come, and given that there are only a few Codices done a year, there are plenty of armies there that are going to have to grin in bear it like CSM players did, or quit the game. Sadly that happens with each edition. One has to hope the massive re print that is coming up will make things better so that they can deal with GK, Necrons and CSM without being decimated

Hulkster
05-07-2012, 12:13
Here is the thing. I can deal with Necrons and Grey Knights currently.

Grey Knights die as easily as any other marine, in fact my main army just got stronger against them. Deathwing.

Now Necrons have only really got better in terms of shooting vehicles. I think a firewarrior battle suit tau army would make mincemeat of any necron force.

I think you need to calm down and just wait. All this discussion is not going to change anything or make anything easier. It is only going to give a reason for people to complain ahead of time.

We will have no idea of any power creep until we get 3 books or so. That is all I am afraid. I am not sure what you are trying to discuss. IT may or may not happen. We can talk about it all we want but in the end we will not know until we get a few books. That is all.

Scammel
05-07-2012, 12:22
From what we know so far, they've been very, very restrained with CSM, as evidenced by the fact that their elite veteran unit has been downgraded to standard Joe stats.

theJ
05-07-2012, 12:48
What Scammel said.

Also, you need to keep in mind that the OPness of Necrons may well be due to having a 5th edition mindset.
To wit; Necrons are now great versus vehicles, and everyone fields heaps of vehicles, hence they're OP, right?
right.
Except... 6th edition discourages mechanised* play in general, not just when fighting Necrons. The meta of 6th seems to be moving away from vehicles, and over to infantry... when armies are no longer based around transports, are Necrons still OP?
Only time will truly tell....

*Note; mechanised as in "everything is a vehicle or rides a vehicle", as opposed to "includes a tank or two".

orkmiester
05-07-2012, 13:10
What Scammel said.

Also, you need to keep in mind that the OPness of Necrons may well be due to having a 5th edition mindset.
To wit; Necrons are now great versus vehicles, and everyone fields heaps of vehicles, hence they're OP, right?
right.
Except... 6th edition discourages mechanised* play in general, not just when fighting Necrons. The meta of 6th seems to be moving away from vehicles, and over to infantry... when armies are no longer based around transports, are Necrons still OP?
Only time will truly tell....

*Note; mechanised as in "everything is a vehicle or rides a vehicle", as opposed to "includes a tank or two".


+1

too true, i tried my 5th ed chaos mech army against my SW list (playing against myself:shifty:) that i developed after my first read of the rule book...

the result SW won hands down (said list only had 4 vehicles- 3 razorbacks and a vindicator...) it was awesome fun, and people complained about long fangs in 5th they are even better now:p


on the chaos side until the new dex hits, oblits and more nurgle will be seen than ever before, and yes i'll admit my chaos army now needs serious work, though in saying that if 6th ed codexes turn out like those for fantasy then things will get much better.

we shall see;)

SimaoSegunda
05-07-2012, 14:03
I agree with the general gist of the replies here. Although I'm a fantasy player, and am just considering getting back into 40K for the first time since 2nd Ed, it's true that in Fantasy the last couple of books released for 7th are broken / OP (I'm looking at you, Skaven), the newest books have good balance, both against each other, and against the ruleset in general.

Obviously, every army will have its optimal and sub-optimal builds, but some of those are context-sensitive. If you take an all-comers list for Necrons, lets say, and it has a load of anti-tank weapons at the expense of anti-personnel, then if it meets a heavy mech list, it will probably kick a substantial amount of ass. However, put that same army up against a list that is 95% infantry, it won't do so well. See the look on your opponent's face when he deploys an IG army stuffed with melta weapons, and laugh as he has to use his expensive toys to make crispy gretchin and pancakes.

Johnnya10
05-07-2012, 14:44
Although we won't know for sure until the Codex comes out, having read the rulebook, I'd hazard a guess that Chaos will become the galaxy's biggest and baddest - a mantle that they should have always held but that successive Codexes haven't been kind. The whole "The Great Enemy" and "The Greatest Threat" thing is building them up so you'd a really good book and some rules, characters and powers that will really strike fear into the hearts of Imperial armies.

But, we shall just have to wait and see if it pans out like this...