PDA

View Full Version : most overprice/useless/unplayed units in 8th ed books



Lance Tankmen
05-07-2012, 19:53
hello, i started playing warhammer in 8th, so part of me likes to think its balanced and every unit has its uses unless they are from older books, and childish dreams that every list can be fun and competive using anything from the 5 8th ed books. Then i hear people say tomb kings are underpowered, orc boyz are unused, basic knights for the empire, yhetees are pointless. i sadly dont play any of these races so i cant try it first hand. but in your guys opinon whats the most overpriced/useless/unplayed model out of the 5 8th ed books? then which one for each book if there is one that comes to mind. im curious as to weather its fact or just players feelings

DaemonReign
05-07-2012, 20:40
The Daemon Prince (DoC) has got to be amongst the worst Lord Choices point-for-Point across all races.
And I know the WoC-one is pretty much on par with that although I have to say I personally Think the DoC-version is slightly worse off.

Screamers are pretty damn horrible too.

[Just looking at what's Close to heart here, I'll leave other Armies to other people who knows them better]

thesheriff
05-07-2012, 20:44
Glade Riders
Wardancers
Warhawk Riders
Wild riders

Wait, there seems to be a pattern...

thesheriff

Malorian
05-07-2012, 20:49
Glade Riders

Glade riders are amazing! The amount of times I've danced around my opponent in 8th while the hordes can't catch me.

If you ask me it's the best unit in the wood elve book right now!


I'd vote for wardancers though. Poor naked ninjas don't stand a chance now that things hit back...

Sure they can have a really slim chance at an assassination, or finish off weak units, but then anything can kill weak units.

Gradolt
05-07-2012, 20:49
Snotlings :) At least they build Pump Wagons too :)

Urgat
05-07-2012, 20:52
Snotlings :) At least they build Pump Wagons too :)
You beat me to it :p
Yeah, snotlings are up there. To the OP: regular orcs are good, it's just that savages are better.

Gradek
05-07-2012, 20:54
Well to answer the question as the OP posed it (ie ONLY pertaining to 8th edition books), then I would have to say that the most overpriced unit is possibly empire handgunners, although one could make a pretty good case for Ushtabi as well.

pointyteeth
05-07-2012, 21:21
Snotlings, bow Ushabti.

Lorcryst
05-07-2012, 21:22
Snotlings, +1.

A 50% increase in price, a move up to the Special section, the new unstable rules ... poor snots ... to think I have almost 20 bases of them, gathering dust ...

Jack of Blades
05-07-2012, 21:24
Most overpriced is probably a level 4 high liche priest using light or death. Why? because you've got to pay another 210 point 'tax' to use one. The tax is slightly more potent than a skeleton in combat but 52,5 times more expensive, it can't shoot and if you want to use the magic you just paid to not use it'll leech needed dice from the real spells. I'd rather have 210 points of snotlings, wardancers, screamers or whatever than a 210 point tax if you want to use a light or death high liche priest.

Crube
05-07-2012, 21:26
Snotlings, empire handgunners/crossbows, bow ushabti...

Others may be 'underpowered' but I find there is still generally a use for them somewhere. If you look hard enough. Maybe behind the couch...

Malorian
05-07-2012, 21:39
I had a tournament a few years back where snotlings did very well.

Basically each game turn you would gamble with your opponent on how much you were willing to lose. Whoever gave the highest number got to go first BUT they also had to remove that many wounds from their list.

The guy with snotlings was going first all the time :D

SimaoSegunda
05-07-2012, 21:43
Sadly, because I really love the fluff, and the bonuses given by Loremaster and 4+ chanelling, I have to say that the Gobbo Great Shaman on Arachnarok build is pretty rare to see on the battlefield, mainly because it sucks up a lot of Lord points, especially if you want to protect the shaman. I really want it to work, and I might give it another try, but basically its points cost is very prohibitive, and it can deny you access to a big fighty warboss. I'd love for somebody to tell me I'm wrong, because I've designed a Feral OnG army that I really want to use, that involves him, but... yeah.

Andy p
05-07-2012, 22:30
Sadly, because I really love the fluff, and the bonuses given by Loremaster and 4+ chanelling, I have to say that the Gobbo Great Shaman on Arachnarok build is pretty rare to see on the battlefield, mainly because it sucks up a lot of Lord points, especially if you want to protect the shaman. I really want it to work, and I might give it another try, but basically its points cost is very prohibitive, and it can deny you access to a big fighty warboss. I'd love for somebody to tell me I'm wrong, because I've designed a Feral OnG army that I really want to use, that involves him, but... yeah.

I think a GGS on arach has great potential in a large storm of magic game surrounded by lots of cheap low level gobbo shamen to generate dice.

Lance Tankmen
05-07-2012, 22:55
enjoyed reading the replies, well the ones that acually read my question, i know WE and other 6-7th books have unused units thats why i said 8th ed books only... to see if GW made the units right this time around

thesheriff
05-07-2012, 23:07
Glade riders are amazing! The amount of times I've danced around my opponent in 8th while the hordes can't catch me.

If you ask me it's the best unit in the wood elf book right now!

I won't get into this argument again Malorian. Sufficed to say I still maintain that Glade Riders are the single worst unit in the wood elf book when facing any balanced arny with shooting units.

And I missed the bit w/ 8th Ed books only. Chalk me up for bow Ubshabti. Just awful....

Lance Tankmen
05-07-2012, 23:11
odd i heard the GW ubshabti were worse than the bow ones...

gdsora
05-07-2012, 23:48
Tomb Heralds

Why even bother.


Just give me the +25 point BSB option for a prince, like basically every other army book

Lance Tankmen
05-07-2012, 23:53
well i figured with tomb heralds you use em to guard a tomb king with with DoE

The bearded one
06-07-2012, 00:02
I won't get into this argument again Malorian. Sufficed to say I still maintain that Glade Riders are the single worst unit in the wood elf book when facing any balanced arny with shooting units.

Me too, I don't think they'll last more than 2 rounds against my skinks.

While not really overpriced or useless, gnoblar scraplaunchers nowadays appear to be virtually entirely unplayed in favour of fancy ironblasters.

I don't expect you'll see many empire swordsmen again either. 7 points for that? And they even lost a point of initiative? No thanks, 5 dozen halbediers instead please.

Any kind of swarm unit in any kind of army is almost always overpriced, useless and unplayed by default. Tomb swarms and snotlings ahoy!

DaemonReign
06-07-2012, 00:09
Hm yes sorry.. Missed that we were focusing on 8th Ed books.. Silly me.

Malorian
06-07-2012, 00:11
I won't get into this argument again Malorian. Sufficed to say I still maintain that Glade Riders are the single worst unit in the wood elf book when facing any balanced arny with shooting units.

And we still disagree.


If we are just talking about 8th ed I would say tomb swarms are the worst. They are snotlings that don't show up right away and get crushed even by warmachine crew.

Lance Tankmen
06-07-2012, 00:14
so im seeing tomb king units mentioned....which makes me feel bad for my friend who started em up, when we played axis and allies miniatures he played italy so hes used to having a weak army i guess...still i feel bad..

The bearded one
06-07-2012, 00:19
so im seeing tomb king units mentioned....which makes me feel bad for my friend who started em up, when we played axis and allies miniatures he played italy so hes used to having a weak army i guess...still i feel bad..

having an underdog army makes for a fuller gaming experience. I played dwarfs in 7th fantasy, and Tau in 5th (and 6th) 40K. Victory tastes pretty damn sweet.

Doommasters
06-07-2012, 00:25
Not the most useless but pretty bad

Warhawk Riders
7th Glade Riders (Playable but die to a stiff breeze and cost to much to use as throw away units, what purpose do they really have?)
7th Waywatchers (still playable but way way to expensive for what you are getting)
7th War Dancers (Elite combat unit with low numbers that are only good for supporting combats in the flank failry useless unit)
7th All the WE special characters (Dyrcha was decent in 7th but now is unplayable)

7th Daemon Prince (Ungodly expensive for something can only get a ward save and has no access to magic items, up there with the worst unit in the game imo)
7th Chaos Spawn (Serve no purpose)
7th Shaggoths (Overcosted monsters that fail)
7th Minotaurs (Playable and not terrible per say but very much overcosted given how much damage they take and the inability to catch a snail when over running)
7th Chaos Lords (Decent in combat good stats, but from an internal balance perspective have nothing on the Sorcerer.....not a bad unit just poor design)

Come to think of it there are not too many 8th units that are horribly bad. Gorgers are decent even if they are not the most cost effective option

8th Tomb Swarms (Not sure why you could even bother taking them TBH, up there with the worst units currently...at least you have scorpions that work)
8th Yhettes (Very average and don't really do anything special same as in 8th)
8th Ushabi (Only Ushabi with bows are really playable, they just don't work in combat for how much you play for them....annoying but hey TK have so many great units and monsters it isn't a nig deal)

Lance Tankmen
06-07-2012, 00:26
ya true he never won as italy though... i won as germans though :D

-Totenkopf-
06-07-2012, 00:41
Well, as far as 8th ed books go, my TK are quite balanced, definately not underpowered, but just right.. However.. All forms of ushabti = useless.. make them T5, M6 and give them all weapon options(ie, Great bow = GW) for 50pts and suddenly kinda useful.. Not asking much either when you start looking at VC's new MI..

Scorpions... 85pts for a single model compared to 65pts for necro knights with the same stats... They get a lot of slack for being terrible warmachine hunters, but thats not what they are for.. They are late game rear chargers and 85pt surprise redirectors... Still a huge waste of points and a cool model that is quite useless..

Doommasters
06-07-2012, 00:53
Well, as far as 8th ed books go, my TK are quite balanced, definately not underpowered, but just right.. However.. All forms of ushabti = useless.. make them T5, M6 and give them all weapon options(ie, Great bow = GW) for 50pts and suddenly kinda useful.. Not asking much either when you start looking at VC's new MI..

Scorpions... 85pts for a single model compared to 65pts for necro knights with the same stats... They get a lot of slack for being terrible warmachine hunters, but thats not what they are for.. They are late game rear chargers and 85pt surprise redirectors... Still a huge waste of points and a cool model that is quite useless..

Scorpions work fine, people assume they should just be able to appear behind enemy lines and start trashing units....this was never going to be the case. You just have ti understand scorpions limitations and play to their strengths.

BEARO
06-07-2012, 01:40
HE Shadow Warriors
lol.

DaemonReign
06-07-2012, 01:47
*hm*
Looking at VC..
My VC playing friend still hates Dire Wolves, thinking they're about as meaningless as they were in 7th Ed.
And isn't the Zombie Dragon still kind of meh?
And Ghouls (aside of GW marketing strategies) arn't really worth 10pts/model, are they?

Maoriboy007
06-07-2012, 02:00
Scorpions work fine, people assume they should just be able to appear behind enemy lines and start trashing units....this was never going to be the case. You just have ti understand scorpions limitations and play to their strengths.Totenkopf has a point, theyre overcos and aren't very good at doing what you're paying for.
And if they can't apperar behind enemy lines and trash units , what use are they? You may as well spend the points on a more in your face unit.

Ushabti are terrible and its a crying shame
Most swarms
TK heavy Horsemen, the term still makes me laugh.


*hm*
Looking at VC..
My VC playing friend still hates Dire Wolves, thinking they're about as meaningless as they were in 7th Ed.
And isn't the Zombie Dragon still kind of meh?
And Ghouls (aside of GW marketing strategies) arn't really worth 10pts/model, are they?
Dire wolves are not great as far as cavalry go, but theyre perfectly costed, especially as a swift sacrifcial redirector.
Zombie Dragon, yes meh, but at least not as grossly overcosted as it used to be.
Considering they got massively deprowered both in 8th edition and in the new book, yes ghouls are overcosted, 8 points would have been fine 9 points on the outside.

Lance Tankmen
06-07-2012, 02:10
dire wolves are war beasts i thought?

Yamabushi
06-07-2012, 02:53
Scorpions, as mentioned, are used as surprise redirectors or rear chargers. Since we cannot march, any distraction is welcome. I do agree that they are less used nowadays though.

I see a lot of hate on Tomb Swarms, but they are better warmachine hunters than Scorpions, especially against cannons, as the min unit is 2+ and that's 10 wounds already, compared to the 3 wounds offered by the Scorp.There's also this crazy idea of holding the Watchtower with 10 swarms....

Well, Maori...they don't call 'em Heavy Horsemen anymore....just plain old Skeleton Horsemen :p (I suppose GW finally realize the ridiculousness of the name for the what the unit can do)

Maoriboy007
06-07-2012, 03:38
dire wolves are war beasts i thought?7th ed faux pax there, still they do the job they're supposed to and are costed right for it.
Best thing about the VC book really with a few exceptions everything is costed pretty much right.

TKs are costed terribly IMO (yes flogging a dead horse but it still stings after the long wait...)

En Sabbah Nur
06-07-2012, 07:31
In 8th, TK Ushabtis are overpriced as Monstrous Infantry (50pts for WS4 T4 AS5+, same stats as an Ogre but costs 20pts more) and the Chariot is not cheap even - S4 Impact Hits, AS5+ for 55pts, the only thing that saves them is that they are Core units.
The Cavalry also, especially Scouts - 14pts for a Fast Cavalry that cannot flee, march, and with WS 2 (even with Aspic Arrows) ? Sounds terribly useless, even with Scouting.

I haven't tried out the other 8th armies, so can't tell now.

herohammer
06-07-2012, 08:32
Actually ushabti really are not as overpriced as people make them out to be since they have the same statline and gear as ironguts with -1M +1WS (a wash really) and get unbreakable/unstable (with -1 crumble) for 7 points more than an IG. (you trade the points spent throwing stubborn crown on someone in the ogre unit incase you fight a blackknight bus or something else you can't generate hardly any active res against compared to how much they dish out).

I would say by book
OnG-snotlings and stone trolls. Snotlings are cheap for swarm bases but you really get what you payed for (the dirt below the hole in the bottom of the proverbial barel)...no one even remembers stone trolls exist as a separate unit entry given that no one else has posted them here yet.

TK-decent number of situational (herald, swarms, etc.) units and mediocre units (ushabti, necrosphinx) but they really don't have anything as mind numbingly derp as stone trolls or snotlings. Prince apophas is pretty dodgy too but at least he is really cheap for a flying dude with a really small footprint for sneaking around killing weapons teams or something.

Ogres- yhetees and scraplauncher simply because of the other similar units in the same slots, special and rare, in the same army that fulfill similar roles better; maneaters (and mournfangs as flankers, the old book's rational for yhetees) and ironblasters (as well as leadbelchers who are better at cutting down infantry than scrappies). Also greasus is garbage and bragg the gutsman is the single worst special character in any army book in fantasy (yes he really is...he has a 105 points magic item that gives him +1S and has other effects that only work in challenges, require him to win challenges, and don't help him do it very much. He also wears next to no armor and has no special rules)

Vampires-I guess the black coach because of the turkey stuffed vampire rare section where it is competing against wraith units, mortis engines, and terrorgheists as well as the less seen but still situationally good varghulf and blood knights. The coach really isn't that bad it is a valiant attempt at making a concept work which simply doesn't mesh with the way 8th edition works; that of a really elite, purely combat (shoo IB!) chariot. Do beastmen run razorgor chariots when they have tuskgor chariots in core? The coach is about as pimp as you can make a ride given that by midgame it has killing blow, extra impact hits, flaming attacks at the least and can get flying and ethereal but it still is barely enough to work. This is the reason TK never got the "Elite chariots" people kept wish listing for...it is really hard to make such a unit work. The coach does work, but only just.

Empire-mortar since the cannon didn't get nerfed that bad creating competition for points within people's lists and the hellblaster (plus engineer at least) got buffed creating competition for the role of infantry destruction. markus wulfhart is pretty damn bad too

there really aren't that many units in the 8th edition books that are overshadowed within there own books or outright trash but there are some.

Snake1311
06-07-2012, 09:33
Lol, pretty much everyone above me is wrong :)

I've created a test of horribleness, which I believe all of the abovementioned units pass.

Its very basic: "If unit X was costed at half points, would you take it?"

If we substitute X for any of the units mentioned previously, they all suddenly become very good choices.

People are just confused, because many of those choices are in books widely considered subpar (although thats not necessarily the case, but this isn't the place to argue it).

Off the top of my head, I can think of two units which are still pretty horribad even if they were half the cost. One of them is the dwarven flame cannon, the other is the bretonnian grail relique. I've never even seen either model get used ever, and even if you half their point costs, they are still a resounding 'meh' at best.

SkawtheFalconer
06-07-2012, 09:41
Forsaken in their current iteration (I expect them to be much better in a few months time) have to take the prize. 18 points for a T4 foot slogger with heavy armour and randomly generated number of attacks? No thanks.

Oogie boogie boss
06-07-2012, 09:42
Giant. I love the big guy, and he can be devastating when used in the right way, but he either needs to be about 30-50pts cheaper or T6. Or have Regen or something. Still gonna take one whenever possible though.

Snake1311
06-07-2012, 10:03
Both forsaken and the giant would be absolutely ridiculous at half cost.

Oogie boogie boss
06-07-2012, 10:07
I'm sorry, but the 'would it be good at half the cost' idea is a little....specious. Even awful units would still be great at half the cost, there are really no units which are double the price they should be. Games developers slip up from time to time, but i've never seen a unit or model which i've considered twice or more it's appropriate points cost.

Far2Casual
06-07-2012, 10:08
Everybody replying Bowshabtis to this thread has probably never used them or seen them play. They are awesome and form the main unit of my army. Every player that faced them came to the conclusion that the internet wisdom is so wrong on them, and if you go to the TK forum you'll see that more and more TK players use them now. They can handle many, many, many more things that people think. And no, they're absolutely not "like Ogres for 20 pts more" (Ogres is my primary army). They are unbreakable, WS4, I3 and have a free weapon option. With GW, they are 7 points more expensive than Ironguts but are Unbreakable and WS4/I3. Those 3 things are known as the Ogres main weaknesses, so don't take these differences lightly.

My pick is any form of non-ethereal Swarms. I don't understand why the Unstable rule, it completely ruins their purpose. I've not seen a single swarm (other than ethereals) on an 8th ed table yet.

My second pick would be the Ogre Hunter. Almost completely worthless imo.

Snake1311
06-07-2012, 10:15
I'm sorry, but the 'would it be good at half the cost' idea is a little....specious. Even awful units would still be great at half the cost, there are really no units which are double the price they should be. Games developers slip up from time to time, but i've never seen a unit or model which i've considered twice or more it's appropriate points cost.

You argument is good, but only if it was in a vacuum - in my initial post I gave you two examples of units which are still bad at half cost :)

Since the thread aim is to answer "what is the most overpriced unit" and not "which units in WH are overpriced (which is about 30% of them by a rough estimate)", then the 'winning' unit should be passing the half points test.

Maoriboy007
06-07-2012, 10:47
Lol, pretty much everyone above me is wrong :)

I've created a test of horribleness, which I believe all of the abovementioned units pass.

Its very basic: "If unit X was costed at half points, would you take it?"

If we substitute X for any of the units mentioned previously, they all suddenly become very good choices.

People are just confused, because many of those choices are in books widely considered subpar (although thats not necessarily the case, but this isn't the place to argue it).

Off the top of my head, I can think of two units which are still pretty horribad even if they were half the cost. One of them is the dwarven flame cannon, the other is the bretonnian grail relique. I've never even seen either model get used ever, and even if you half their point costs, they are still a resounding 'meh' at best.

But...they're NOT half points, which is the problem, at their current costs the units are overpriced , some of them probably should be half price.

I don't know enough about the flame cannon or the reliquary to comment.

Its worth saying that unstable cancels out unbreakable reAlly , especially with steadfast and stubborn availability these days.

MOMUS
06-07-2012, 10:52
Jungle swarms

Good as a speedbump/redirector but thats about it. :yes:

Zoring
06-07-2012, 10:54
Empire Infantry and Artillery, all increased in cost, and artillery decreased in effectiveness. *sniff*

Drakcore Bloodtear
06-07-2012, 12:03
Actually ushabti really are not as overpriced as people make them out to be since they have the same statline and gear as ironguts with -1M +1WS (a wash really) and get unbreakable/unstable (with -1 crumble) for 7 points more than an IG. (you trade the points spent throwing stubborn crown on someone in the ogre unit incase you fight a blackknight bus or something else you can't generate hardly any active res against compared to how much they dish out).

I would say by book
OnG-snotlings and stone trolls. Snotlings are cheap for swarm bases but you really get what you payed for (the dirt below the hole in the bottom of the proverbial barel)...no one even remembers stone trolls exist as a separate unit entry given that no one else has posted them here yet.

TK-decent number of situational (herald, swarms, etc.) units and mediocre units (ushabti, necrosphinx) but they really don't have anything as mind numbingly derp as stone trolls or snotlings. Prince apophas is pretty dodgy too but at least he is really cheap for a flying dude with a really small footprint for sneaking around killing weapons teams or something.


I have to agree with the stuff on TK, Ushabti although pricey aren't unusable nor terrible, nor are Tomb swarms, neither are Tomb Heralds.
And the accusation that Horse Archers are bad :wtf:

TK horsemen however are a truly terrible unit, I can't think of a single good thing they are used for.

tmarichards
06-07-2012, 12:40
Savage Orc archers.

Just... why...

Also, I giggled when I read that Glade Riders are the best unit in the Wood Elf book right now :)

Oogie boogie boss
06-07-2012, 12:51
Well, it's just my opinion, but I think neither Flame Cannons nor Grail Reliquaes are double the cost that they should be. They're overpriced, sure, but not by that much. Half price Flame Cannon is definately too cheap.

Snake1311
06-07-2012, 12:55
But...they're NOT half points, which is the problem, at their current costs the units are overpriced , some of them probably should be half price.


Ok, let me try to explain again.

The aim of the thread is to find the most overpriced unit(s).

Overpriced-ness can either be measured by a flat amount, or as a %. Since model costs in warhammer vary from about 300fold, % is probably the better way.

The 'useful at half points' test is just a very simple way to show that a unit is overpriced by 100%, which is quite a lot. Many of the units mentioned in this thread are also overpriced, but nowhere near to that value. Savage orc archers for example, while stupid as a unit function, are probably only overpriced by about 50% - meaning that if you take a third of their point cost off they become a decent pick. Exact values may be subject to discussion (I'm just guessing at them), but I'm pretty sure tey would be underpriced at half points, so we know that the value is less than 100%.

Similarly, I don't think there is anything in the WE book that wouldn't be flat amazing at half cost - please correct me if I am omitting something. So nothing from there is a contender for 'most overpriced'.

So, using this very simple mechanic, its easier to boil the massive amount of overpriced units to a small list of units which are overpriced by 100% or more, i.e. the 'would it be good if it was half price' test. The two candidates I have put forward so far are:

- flame cannon
- grail relique

I don't think there would be more than 5 selections in the whole WFB which would qualify for this list of true terribleness; but unless someone else wants to add any further units and explain the reasons for their presence, I believe the above win the thread :).

My reasons: flame cannon - at half points, it would still serve no purpose in the army, as it is a very short range immobile war machine. And at half points, its still only barely cheaper than a unruned grudge thrower, and still more expensive than a bolt thrower. It takes up from the rare allowance (admittedly uncontested in the army), and is classed as a warmachine, meaning it takes up a WM slot under most comp packs. Its only realistically going to be able to take one short per game, and it is unlikely it will get its half-points back with that shot.

Grail Relique - I don't play brets myself, so the reasoning is shakier here and may be wrong. At half points, these douches are stubborn men at arms with a free command; however they give up their halberds and no longer count as core. That makes them on par with M@A at best, and those are also a subpar unit. Still being subpar after a 50% discount is sad.

CommanderCax
06-07-2012, 12:59
I'm sorry, but the 'would it be good at half the cost' idea is a little....specious. Even awful units would still be great at half the cost, there are really no units which are double the price they should be. Games developers slip up from time to time, but i've never seen a unit or model which i've considered twice or more it's appropriate points cost.

The Jabberslythe maybe... :shifty:

Metacarpi
06-07-2012, 13:13
Ok, let me try to explain again.

The aim of the thread is to find the most overpriced unit(s).

Also Useless.
Also Unplayed.

So you're concentrating on maybe 33% of what the thread is asking.

Snake1311
06-07-2012, 13:29
Useless and Unplayed result from Overpriced. Everything has a use is priced accordingly.

Baluc
06-07-2012, 13:34
Both forsaken and the giant would be absolutely ridiculous at half cost.

Why would I take forsaken?

12 forsaken are 216 points
for random attacks at Ws4, a 5+ armour save, from my special allowance

When I can take
12 Chaos warriors of Khorne
additionl hand weapons for 222
for consistently 4 s4 attacks at ws5 and 4+ armour

or 12 Chaos warriors of Khorne
with halbersd
for a consistent 3 s5 attacks at ws5 and 4+ armour for the 222

If the units get bigger the advantage to warriors gets bigger as the mark gets cheaper.

And your entire premise is wrong. They are bad for what they cost, in a make believe world where they are 50% less they might be great, but I only play warhammer in the real world where they are poo. So they are either underpowered or over-costed, which is the premise of the entire thread.

Metacarpi
06-07-2012, 13:38
Useless and Unplayed result from Overpriced. Everything has a use is priced accordingly.

I understand what you're saying, but that's not strictly the case. There may be different options that synergise with the army more effectively. This doesn't necessarily mean that the unit is overpriced.

SimaoSegunda
06-07-2012, 13:39
Of course, these are only true if we're talking in terms of points cost. If we're talking overpriced in terms of pounds, shillings and pence, then every unit, in every army.

IcedCrow
06-07-2012, 13:56
I can find a use and do use every single unit in the tomb king book. Except for horsemen. I can't find a use for horsemen. I have a couple units of them from the old days of 5th edition undead when they could move through terrain like ghosts which was cool. However they have not seen a table top in over a decade.

Snake1311
06-07-2012, 14:30
And your entire premise is wrong. They are bad for what they cost, in a make believe world where they are 50% less they might be great, but I only play warhammer in the real world where they are poo. So they are either underpowered or over-costed, which is the premise of the entire thread.

The 'make-believe' is just an arbitrary line of badness. If they do not cross it, it means they are not as bad as the units that do. I never said forsaken weren't overcosted, I said they aren't as overcosted as other units are.


I understand what you're saying, but that's not strictly the case. There may be different options that synergise with the army more effectively. This doesn't necessarily mean that the unit is overpriced.

A fair point! However, in a well-design book, army synnergy will be calculated into the point costs. For example - in the Bret book, the trebuchet and archers are much cheaper than equivalent choices in more ranged-heavy armies; however this is because in the context of working together with knight buses, they underperform (the treb has less turns to shoot and has a chance to whack your knights if you get careless and unlucky, and archers tend tohave their line of fire obstructed by friendly units). As such, both of the units above receive a discount in points - to the point where they are usable, and indeed, often utilized.

The game is based around points, and everything within it - usefulness in a vacuum, synnergy with the army, whatever you can think of - can and should be measured and evaluted by its point value.

Even the most 'useless' unit in the context of bad army synnergy will become 'useful' if the points are dropped sufficiently.

In terms of 'unplayed', on low levels this is affected by model availability (which is another nail in the coffin of abovementioned forsaken), but in high level competitive play point-efficient useful units will get used regardless.

Gaius Marius
06-07-2012, 14:51
Iced Crow - I have used small 60pt units of TK horsemen with some 'success' They get the Vanguard move of 12" which can create options, and at 60pts for 5 guys, they are usable as march blockers / re-directors / really lame war machine hunters. At best they move up and disrupt your opponents movement phase, and give you a 'free' unit deployment in the deployment phase. I don't love them but I keep trying them because I like the models. When I have tried using them in a larger formation they 100% suck.

Lorcryst
06-07-2012, 18:05
Ok, I know it's a 7th ed book, but the Nurglings swarms are really good, IMHO ...

On the other hand, even if they were costed at a third of their current price, I wouldn't use Snotlings swarms ...

But all that is only my point of view, and I'm far from being an expert (although I'm working on that, slowly).

Djekar
06-07-2012, 18:12
My vote goes for snotlings. My 4 bases cry themselves to sleep in the closet every night. Well, at least I assume they do - I don't care enough to check on them regularly and see how their day was.

Lance Tankmen
06-07-2012, 18:51
thanks hero hammer, that was the perfect reply. too many people point out models from the old books, i know the old books have over priced things... thats why i put 8th ed books only... still either people dont read that or just mentally skip that part... idk im at a loss

Confessor_Atol
07-07-2012, 04:49
Noone's mentioned the ogre gorger. He's not snotling-bad but he is an utterly crap option for 90 points. If you get lucky, he might be able to charge on turn 3, maybe..........color me underwhelmed.

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-07-2012, 09:14
Savage Orc archers.

Just... why...

Also, I giggled when I read that Glade Riders are the best unit in the Wood Elf book right now :)

I'd have to agree, while my giggle was more of a chuckle accompanied with a shake of the head.

I find it funny that no one has mentioned:

Gyrocopters- there is realistically no roll a Gyrocopter can play in a Dwarf army besides being a cute paperweight for your Armybooks.
Executioners- ASL elf. . . what H.Es don't want to be #getyomeatsacksherewhiletheirinarmorstill
Silverhelms -rarely ever used, or seen, can't take a magic banner, and get outclassed by Dragon Princes at 7 points more. Never take as a special choice, though if they were a core choice, then you have options.
Ellyrion Reavers/Gladeriders - both are absolute poor units, but then again, every fast cav. unit in the game now is utter useless and overcosted. Instead, G.W should just eliminate all fast cav., or give them S10 attacks (maybe that will save them).


I have to second Shadow Warriors that someone mentioned eariler, almost on par with my most laughably unit in the game . . . DRAGONMAGES. . . really? Who thought of this concept? Three kinds of poor game design, with a dash of stupidity. A H.E general is going to pay for a Dragon. . . and the not get it combat? Or better yet, pay for a caster, and get it in combat? If my opponent said I could take a free Dragonmage, and as many Shadow Warriors as I would like for free as well, I would just pass, as the free V.Ps they'll give up wouldn't even be worth being FREE, just a hassle instead.

Dragonmages; just edged out the lead over Gyrocopters, Flame Cannons and Snotlings for worst unit in the game -this is like a handicapped horse race, can't turn away from the trainwreck that will ensue, but you know it's immoral.

Jerry
07-07-2012, 11:03
The Empire Mortar, once found in abundance and now facing extinction :(

Urgat
07-07-2012, 11:22
thanks hero hammer, that was the perfect reply. too many people point out models from the old books, i know the old books have over priced things... thats why i put 8th ed books only... still either people dont read that or just mentally skip that part... idk im at a loss

People always do that. If you say "post ONE thing you would like changed in the next BRB", people will still post twelve.

zoggin-eck
07-07-2012, 12:43
Savage Orc archers.

Just... why...


I always thought they were a "legacy" type option. As in, they used to make the models, so kept the option in the book over the years. Sure enough, they made archer options on the new models! Ah well, I think they're cool. I still add shields to mine, simply because not many archer units can still take shields as well.




I find it funny that no one has mentioned:


Might have something to do with reading the thread title, mayperhaps?

Lorcryst
07-07-2012, 12:58
Gyrocopters- there is realistically no roll a Gyrocopter can play in a Dwarf army besides being a cute paperweight for your Armybooks.

While I mostly agree with the rest of your post, I have to disagree with that specific bit ...

I've been playing against Dwarves a lot these past months, and the Gyrocopter is a real pain : able to zoom close to my troops to force Leadership tests for Marching (deadly against my gobboes, that little thing can stall most of my battle line), able to catch fleeing units, huge template that destroy small units in one fell swoop ... even my Chaos Warriors are not immune to that thing, when you have to take 15+ saving throws, even at 4+, you're bound to fail a couple ...

But yeah, Dragonmages are a bit of a :wtf: choice ... fluffy maybe, but not good :p

ftayl5
07-07-2012, 13:23
Savage Orc archers.

I disagree, they're not optimal but still not a bad option if your theme is savage orcs, their firepower isn't overwhelming but it's perfect for the chaff stuff that can really cause problems for an army of frenzied models. And then they still get 2 S3(4) attacks each in combat. Hardly a bad option in my books.

My choice is snotlings though, they're just... argh.

Lance Tankmen
07-07-2012, 16:48
I'd have to agree, while my giggle was more of a chuckle accompanied with a shake of the head.

I find it funny that no one has mentioned:

Gyrocopters- there is realistically no roll a Gyrocopter can play in a Dwarf army besides being a cute paperweight for your Armybooks.
Executioners- ASL elf. . . what H.Es don't want to be #getyomeatsacksherewhiletheirinarmorstill
Silverhelms -rarely ever used, or seen, can't take a magic banner, and get outclassed by Dragon Princes at 7 points more. Never take as a special choice, though if they were a core choice, then you have options.
Ellyrion Reavers/Gladeriders - both are absolute poor units, but then again, every fast cav. unit in the game now is utter useless and overcosted. Instead, G.W should just eliminate all fast cav., or give them S10 attacks (maybe that will save them).


I have to second Shadow Warriors that someone mentioned eariler, almost on par with my most laughably unit in the game . . . DRAGONMAGES. . . really? Who thought of this concept? Three kinds of poor game design, with a dash of stupidity. A H.E general is going to pay for a Dragon. . . and the not get it combat? Or better yet, pay for a caster, and get it in combat? If my opponent said I could take a free Dragonmage, and as many Shadow Warriors as I would like for free as well, I would just pass, as the free V.Ps they'll give up wouldn't even be worth being FREE, just a hassle instead.

Dragonmages; just edged out the lead over Gyrocopters, Flame Cannons and Snotlings for worst unit in the game -this is like a handicapped horse race, can't turn away from the trainwreck that will ensue, but you know it's immoral.

because i asked for 8th ed books.... not 6th

TheDungen
07-07-2012, 17:26
Teclis! Or well he will be once they nerf him in the next he army book.

Soundwave
07-07-2012, 19:20
Speaking of 8th ed books how about the new and improved empire mortar?Yet to see one and i play elves.(he,he,he,he,he)

the_slosh
07-07-2012, 23:35
Speaking of 8th ed books how about the new and improved empire mortar?Yet to see one and i play elves.(he,he,he,he,he)

same as not seeing any snotlings (orc, orc, orc, orc)

m1acca1551
08-07-2012, 01:24
Its quite hard to choose from the list of 8th ed books as imo most of the units are actually fairly well balanced in regards to you getting what you pay for. The biggest one is unplayed... why because there are other options that do a better job or a simple more bang for your buck scenario.

The TK army book though seems to bear the brunt of and flack and i can see why at times.

Swarms are all fairly on the nose except now for bat swarms forcing asl which is pure winning. 8th ed has given us far more balance and in 80% most cases players will often choose to leave something at home not because its overcoster but because its simply not worth leaving out unit b or c.

MOMUS
08-07-2012, 06:54
Ellyrion Reavers/Gladeriders - both are absolute poor units, but then again, every fast cav. unit in the game now is utter useless and overcosted. Instead, G.W should just eliminate all fast cav., or give them S10 attacks (maybe that will save them).

I think terradons are rather excellent thankyou very much :p Peg knights are also pretty good (in the bret list anyway).

Jind_Singh
08-07-2012, 07:13
- Snotlings from my Orcs & Goblins book
- Orc Boyz took a bit of beating with the point increase but not dead yet, but they do limp now!

- Fell Bats...why oh why would anyone use them now!

- Gorgers are a tad bit too expensive for what they do

Rosstifer
08-07-2012, 07:53
- Fell Bats...why oh why would anyone use them now!


Cheap Flying Redirectors/Warmachine Hunters/Chaff Killers/Deployment Drops that with the right Vampiric Power can be raised in decent numbers? They seem pretty decent to me.

Vipoid
08-07-2012, 10:36
- Fell Bats...why oh why would anyone use them now!

Fell Bats aren't bad at all. Cheap fliers, redirectors, war-machine hunters, flank/rear attackers, which can be raised above their starting size with a cheap Vampire power.

Personally, I think their biggest problem isn't with the codex - it's their ludicrous price tag that puts people off. 30.00 for 3 models, yeah... no. :eyebrows:

ftayl5
08-07-2012, 10:36
every fast cav. unit in the game now is utter useless and overcosted. Instead, G.W should just eliminate all fast cav., or give them S10 attacks (maybe that will save them).

This is a joke, right?

Ellyrion Reavers are far from useless, they're just a bit overcosted and fill a similar role as the cheaper Eagle.
And fast cavalry is great and if you disagree then you should play an empire army that uses outriders, when they vanguard up into range for turn 1 and you kindly start removing models. Pistoliers are very often included in competitive armies as well.
Marauder Horsemen are excellent cheap flankers, Dark Riders are a common favourite in DE lists, etc etc. Fast cavalry are from dead.

Odin
08-07-2012, 10:48
Glade riders are amazing! The amount of times I've danced around my opponent in 8th while the hordes can't catch me.

If you ask me it's the best unit in the wood elve book right now!

Really? I mean, sure they can't get caught, providing there's enough space on the battlefield... but they can't do much either. And if your opponent has a low level magic missile or a small unit of archers, they are dead.

panic_puppet
08-07-2012, 11:13
Another vote for Ushabti. Mostly because for the price of 4 ushabti you can get 3 Necropolis Knights, which are more survivable, faster, and dish out more damage. If there was a non-khalida related way to make bowshabti viable in small units, they'd be ok. But there isn't.

Storyteller
08-07-2012, 11:38
I'm certainly no expert and this may be the inexperienced general blaming his tools but in I've played so far with the Empire in 8th I've found the Helstrom Rocket Battery to be underwhelming. I like taking it because it's such a fun concept, but in battle I end up thinking I'd rather have another cannon or more handgunners.

Liber
08-07-2012, 11:51
Ushabti here. Overall the 8th ed Tomb Kings book seems great...but Ushabti are the worst costed unit I can think of off the top of my head.


Edit - Just noticed a large amount of Ushabti votes that specifically mention the 'bow' version. This is true, but not necessary as all versions of Ushabti are terribly priced for what they do. A real shame as the models IMO are awesome.


Edit Edit - Crap, have to give a shout out too the Flame Cannon. It has the honor of being both useless and overpriced. I wonder how many GW has sold in the past couple years...five?

AmaroK
08-07-2012, 12:24
Considering the 8th edition books only, and in my usual games, I have to say the scraplauncher. I have yet to see one, because they are mainly competing with the ironblaster obscenity. I also have to agree on the ushabti and regular skelly cavalry for tk. Boars boyz arent used in my game area either, nor any kind of swarm. All in all, I think 8th books are making a good work making all the books units usable, but there is always room to improve. :)

Wesser
08-07-2012, 13:12
I've said it before..

Empire Pistoliers. Soooo overpriced for a fast cavalry with bad shooting and low leadership

Bretonnian Grail Pilgrims had most of their advantages over Men-at-arms taken away.

Though I must admit the Bow Ushabti is up there with the sillest. Maybe if they could be taken with greatweapons as well...but guess that would have been expensive..

Vipoid
08-07-2012, 13:56
Are we including Special Characters in this list?

If so, I'd like to nominate Isabella, and Krell (both from VCs):

Isabella for being a 175pt tax to make Vlad worth a damn.

Krell is of dubious usefulness to say the least:

A normal wight king with a great weapon and dragonhelm (for 4+ save) is 100pts. Krell is 205, so you're paying 105pts for +1 WS, +1W, +1I (the latter might be useful, were it not for the fact that he's wielding a Great Weapon :eyebrows:). He doesn't get an extra attack, because that might actually be useful. His axe is interesting, but a bit strange seeing as he has killing blow (or Heroic Killing Blow if he's in the same unit as Heinrich - because we all love having our fragile mage on the front-line with one of our most expensive fighters, don't we?).

If we ever have a thread about the worst items, then I'd nominate Krell's armour. It gives him a 4+ save, and nullifies magic weapons if he makes a save against them. Because, as we all know, a 4+ armour save is the bane of all magic items, and there are so few items that strike at S6+ or ignore armour saves entirely... :rolleyes:

Mullitron
08-07-2012, 20:47
Are we including Special Characters in this list?

If so, I'd like to nominate Isabella, and Krell (both from VCs):

Isabella for being a 175pt tax to make Vlad worth a damn.

Krell is of dubious usefulness to say the least::

Well if we are including special characters I would have to add Malekith, for 600-900 odd points (based on his mount option) he can easily take on most cheap infantry without being harmed and even killing 2-3 of them a turn! But besides that hes a quite easy target for anything with magical attacks, his melee damage is worse than many hero level characters he has poor magic option's and items all make him a joke for his cost.

Units from new books I probably agree with the poor snotlings, shame because their a unit we all love and a unit with lots of character

The bearded one
08-07-2012, 23:49
If we're including special characters, I'm going to point to 90% of the lizardmen special characters, who are overpriced by about 100-200 points each. 300+ points for tic'tac'to, a skink chief on terradon with ignore-saves blade and a slightly better terradon and excruciatingly useless outflanking ability, costing 150 points more than the generic version would be? But.. this is about 8th edition books, not 6th/7th!

The tomb king necrolith colossus with the bow option seems like an enormous waste of points. A single BS2 shot..

Lorcryst
08-07-2012, 23:55
I know I'm guilty of this too (in my replys), but this thread is supposed to be about 8TH EDITION ARMY BOOKS ... so while I can see the points about the Flame Canon, Grail Pilgrims, Malekith and the like, they are sadly Out Of Topic ... :p :p :p

Seems like a toss between Snotlings and Ushabtis, with the TK constructs in the lead ...

Doommasters
09-07-2012, 01:31
Why don't you do some direct analysis between the new and old and see how they have changed?

Antipathy
09-07-2012, 02:46
Savage Orc archers.

Just... why...

Also, I giggled when I read that Glade Riders are the best unit in the Wood Elf book right now :)

At 1200 points, yes. Above that, when people can 'afford' to waste points on odd bits of shooting here and there without sacrificing combat potential they lose effectiveness. At 1200, a vanguard move, 18" march and 30" bowshot, with no move penalty, the space to move and hide in cover, backes by a flying level3 lifeweaver, the hail of doom arrow, flying warmachine hunters, and the ability to outmaneuvre and combined charge enemies as and when you want makes them powerful indeed. Although 400 points of empire knights might outclass them in a straight up fight, 20 bowshots with no move and fire penalty and fire after march, forest strider, and the like for 5 turns before a combined charge of 400 points of gladeriders, eagles and warhawk riders can win a game especially when the lifeweaver is healing the units and casting things that generally cause pain like a possible dweller or thorns, and it adds up

Im notna fan of glade guard scouts, for their cost and the loss of s4 shooting there is little point in taking them for scouts when a glade rider unit with the same benefits and similar costing does the same but faster and more maneuverable has my vote.

As for Special Characters, The sisters on an eagle are a bargain buy, the stone thrower shot and ability to halt entire units are worth their points, not to mention their 4 wounds healing back to full at the start of the turn, and hence near immunity to cannonballs, as well as not being reliant on magic, for a 1300-1500 list, they are worth their weoght in points, even if you do lose the lifeweaver.

Sparowl
09-07-2012, 05:14
Razordons.

Lance Tankmen
09-07-2012, 07:32
Razordons.

never heard of em, which 8th edition book they from?

Agoz
09-07-2012, 07:44
I'd have to go with greasus goldtooth and bragg gutsman from the ogre kingdoms book as incredibly overpriced and underpowered characters, as for the worst unit, well, only having access to the empire and ogre 8th army books, I'd have to go with yhetees, they are quite expensive, their -1ws isn't very good because of their own poor weaponskill, and flammable, while not having been that bad a weakness in previous editions, now that everyone has access to a flaming unit, they just go down way too fast to justify using them.

Ebon
09-07-2012, 09:01
Off the top of my head and discounting the armies so old that EVERYTHING needs a rework (WE but also Brets):
Snotlings
Tomb Heralds (except for BSB)
bow Ushabti (which seems to be less them being bad and more Ushabti with great weapons being better)
Yhettees
Gorgers
Razordons (haven't seen a single army that includes them ever, including mine)
Celestial Huricanuum / Luminark (that might be because they're new though)
Razorgor (maybe because the model is awful)
most of the DoC named characters (huge points cost)
DE Reaper bolt thrower (seems to be just that the Hydra is a much better option in the slot)
Silver Helms (might just be my group there)
Bat swarms and Tomb swarms (primarily due to the baffling decision to make them Special, although Nurglings seem to have escaped)
Forsaken currently (probably will improve with new book)

EDIT: Missed the bit about specifically 8th books, sorry.

Ebon
09-07-2012, 09:31
I can find a use and do use every single unit in the tomb king book. Except for horsemen. I can't find a use for horsemen. I have a couple units of them from the old days of 5th edition undead when they could move through terrain like ghosts which was cool. However they have not seen a table top in over a decade.

Flank charges. They're fast and relatively maneuverable in an army that generally isn't. My technique is to draw enemy units onto my big skellie hordes. Since they're hordes, they can hold for at least a while. Then slam the horsemen into the flank and, with a little luck, that can be enough to win the combat for you.

Boreas_NL
09-07-2012, 09:41
My vote is for the Empire Mortar... With the 8th edition BRB it became pretty effective for it's points and it was obvious that it would undergo some sort of overhaul to change all that... However, they succeeded in making it completely useless... At 100 points and S2 it won't kill anything (really, it just can't). It always struggled to wound T4 troops but that was never a problem as there were other methods available but now it can barely scratch T3 models. Fortunately, according to the book, the Mortar's shells still explode with 'tremendous force'...

I have several (six in fact) converted classic Mortars including crew gathering dust (and looking very, very disappointed) in my cabinet. They are part of my Grand Battery (six Cannon and six Mortars) which I built especially for campaign based games and the occasional extreme battle...

Before Empire 8th edition I used to field a single one of each war machine (Cannon, Mortar, Helblaster and Helstorm), now I just field a single Cannon and a brace of Helblasters...

As only separate units are eligeble for the title of 'worst unit ever' I can't nominate the entire 8th edition Empire army book, right? Just kidding (or am I???);) Since I've played a couple of battles with it, it seems not to bad though it still feels like a considerable step backwards for most of the book and the units with only a select few vaguely resembling effectiveness... Something about misery loving company, right?

Blkc57
09-07-2012, 10:32
Overpriced and useless for Skaven? Two words...Vermin Lord. You get all the penalties of being a demon prince without any of the benefits, all for the low low price of 500 points.

Vipoid
09-07-2012, 12:02
Overpriced and useless for Skaven? Two words...Vermin Lord. You get all the penalties of being a demon prince without any of the benefits, all for the low low price of 500 points.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the Vermin Lord is overcosted, but I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that he has all the penalties of a Daemon Prince, with none of the benefits? :confused:

oldWitheredCorpse
09-07-2012, 12:19
There's a lot of talk about Ushabti. The simple fact is that the AHW (additional hand weapon) option is the worst. Monstrous infantry pay a lot, around 11 pts, for greatweapons, but just a few points for AHW. It can be interpreted as a tax for striking at I, but then you might as well take bowshabti, that strike at I, have one attack less in CC, but project a S6 attack 30" over the board from the first turn.

Lorcryst
09-07-2012, 13:50
Bat swarms and Tomb swarms (primarily due to the baffling decision to make them Special, although Nurglings seem to have escaped)

EDIT: Missed the bit about specifically 8th books, sorry.

Slightly off-topic, but both the Nurglings and the Snotlings are also in the Special section ...

Djekar
09-07-2012, 14:24
Overpriced and useless for Skaven? Two words...Vermin Lord. You get all the penalties of being a demon prince without any of the benefits, all for the low low price of 500 points.

I know this is off topic, but I have to go ahead and point out that you do get all of the benefits of a Daemon Prince. It's just that, well, since none of those exist...

Vipoid
09-07-2012, 14:58
I know this is off topic, but I have to go ahead and point out that you do get all of the benefits of a Daemon Prince. It's just that, well, since none of those exist...

It was a strange statement, since all the Vermin Lord's stats are either equal to, or better than, those of a Daemon Prince. It has better S, more wounds, far better initiative. a better weapon, and is a Lv4 wizard. I'm not saying that he's a good unit, just that he doesn't exactly come across as lacking when compared to a daemon prince. :p

Djekar
09-07-2012, 15:37
Not many characters come across lacking when compared to the Daemon Prince though...

The only thing I can think of that the V-lord is missing out on is fly and that doesn't seem so bad considering it has massive movement and resides in an army that can shut down flying anyways.

Alright, I think I'm done poking fun at the Daemon Prince - back to talking about whether Ushabti or Snotlings are worse! I re-acquainted myself with snotlings a few nights ago and at least they have a single S2 ignore armor save shooting attack per base. That was worth the price hike, yeah?

Naanomi
09-07-2012, 20:23
Ushabti, Snotlings... both terrible...
Yhetee, Gorgers, TK Horsemen, Tomb Heralds, most Vamp Special Characters... abysmal at their price...

None stand as poorly as Bragg and Greseaus though. In a themed army I could see taking most of those units (well... maybe not snotlings but...); but I could never ever see myself taking Bragg or Greseaus.

Phazael
09-07-2012, 21:27
Special Characters aside, I think the Gnoblar Scraplauncher has to be the most overpriced hunk of poo in any book. DoC Daemon Princes and the Jabberslythe would be good runners up. In fact, pretty much the entire Beastmen book is a case study in overpriced underpowered fecal matter.

Why
10-07-2012, 00:30
Special Characters aside, I think the Gnoblar Scraplauncher has to be the most overpriced hunk of poo in any book. DoC Daemon Princes and the Jabberslythe would be good runners up. In fact, pretty much the entire Beastmen book is a case study in overpriced underpowered fecal matter.

The scraplauncher is only bad compared to the ironblaster, if you think of it as a glorified chariot it looks decent.

Beastmen are really strong, granted they only have 1.5 good builds. If you said the beastmen rare section and the army lore... you would be correct.

Ushabti are the worst, but the models kick ass.

MooseOnTheLoose
10-07-2012, 05:35
I think its pretty obvious that 99% of the replies are from 7th or 6th books, that 8th books in general are far more internally balanced. Empire, Vampire Counts and Ogre Kingdoms in my mind do not have any real overpriced/useless/unplayed options. People will confuse potential better options in the same slots as what your asking. Despite things like swordsmen and gorgers not being the best option in their armies slot, they are far from really being any of the three things being questioned. Thats the three newest books, tells a story.

With OnG and Tomb Kings I think there were some tweaks that have been corrected but are far more internally balanced then their previous books and all 7th or older. However these two could also hurt themselves a couple ways. OnG have so many options in every slot, it is next too impossible too perfectly point cost and rule create internal balance where an option or 2 are not just better. Tomb Kings suffer imo, as trying too be too much not like VC and while having a very specific and directed theme (ancient egyptian) suffer in the rules as being too unspecific as too what they are suppose too be. Now I am not saying they are a bad army or even underpowered, they just suffer from lack of focus, and internal balance. 8th core rules and army books have made for far more diverse and balanced lists/games.

8th is a big win so far. I don't see much changing if they maintain their new standards. One thing that is overlooked drastically is while there is a main army book writer, each has listed 1 or 2 other co-writers, unseen in previous books. Sort of keeps everyone in a check and balance.

Ulthwe's Tears
10-07-2012, 15:47
8th is a big win so far. I don't see much changing if they maintain their new standards. One thing that is overlooked drastically is while there is a main army book writer, each has listed 1 or 2 other co-writers, unseen in previous books. Sort of keeps everyone in a check and balance.

Generally I tend to agree with you. That said, Snotlings, Tomb Swarms and Heavy Horsemen all seem pretty useless. For the first two, the problems lie with the basic ruleset for swarms being poor. Hence every swarm except for Bat Swarms being pointless.

Phazael
10-07-2012, 22:42
I maintain that the gnoblar (s)craplauncher is terribad. I think the heavy horsemen are equally bad, though. More than stone thrower points for a weaker than normal stone thrower that happens to be a LD6 chariot.. yikes.

The bearded one
10-07-2012, 23:33
More than stone thrower points for a weaker than normal stone thrower that happens to be a LD6 chariot.. yikes.

I think you just touched upon the reason why the scraplauncher is fairly expensive. It's a 5-wound T5 str5 chariot. The actual stone thrower is almost an afterthought compared to the decently tough str5 chariot, but luckily it moves and fires.

Skywave
11-07-2012, 00:46
I'll also say that Tomb Swarms, Snotlings and maybe the Empire Mortar are some of the worst choices from the new books. I have yet to want to use my swarm, and have yet to see Snotling from my orcs opponent.

I don't understand why Ushabti make the list though. They are indeed overpriced, but are far from useless. Of course if people take units of 3 or 4 and expect them to win the game, yeah, not going to happen, just like if you were taking 10 Tomb Guards or 10 Archers, they won't accomplish anything. Units of 6-8 or more is where it's at for them (it's 8th edition already, bigger is better!), and it's not more costly (in points) than those 30-40 halberd-totting Tomb Guards units you see around (and those will need as many points in characters for support). The only truly useless Ushabti is the extra hand weapon one, really one bad choice of equipment. The rest will work wonder is used right.

gdsora
11-07-2012, 00:59
I'll also say that Tomb Swarms, Snotlings and maybe the Empire Mortar are some of the worst choices from the new books. I have yet to want to use my swarm, and have yet to see Snotling from my orcs opponent.

I don't understand why Ushabti make the list though. They are indeed overpriced, but are far from useless. Of course if people take units of 3 or 4 and expect them to win the game, yeah, not going to happen, just like if you were taking 10 Tomb Guards or 10 Archers, they won't accomplish anything. Units of 6-8 or more is where it's at for them (it's 8th edition already, bigger is better!), and it's not more costly (in points) than those 30-40 halberd-totting Tomb Guards units you see around (and those will need as many points in characters for support). The only truly useless Ushabti is the extra hand weapon one, really one bad choice of equipment. The rest will work wonder is used right.

Because if you want to compare them to TG

8 ushabti is 24 wounds compared to that unit of 30 halberd TG, with the TG unit being a few points cheaper.
This leads to TG being able to take more wounds then the ushabti and still stay combat effective

The TG also can be healed more, can get a 5+ KB versus the 6+ a Ushabti can get, and is safe place for characters to be in granting them a passive WS bonus.

That all leads to TG being way more versatile, and "Safer" then ushabti


I could be biased, as I mostly play against armies who have great shooting, which is a major weakness to ushabti. (Gunpowder weapons make them a joke)

Antipathy
11-07-2012, 01:06
Still forgetting the 3 turns of s6 shooting, smiting, and stand and shoot though aren't you? 56 s6 shots can make a lot of pain for armour 3+ units.

gdsora
11-07-2012, 01:16
Still forgetting the 3 turns of s6 shooting, smiting, and stand and shoot though aren't you? 56 s6 shots can make a lot of pain for armour 3+ units.
First
Tomb kings cant stand and shoot

Second
BS 2
A unit of 6 will hit twice a turn. That is a high cost unit for that measly amounts of shots, and by giving them the bows you are making them a measly str 4...

Third
Sure, smite them, thats now 4 shots for that high cost of a unit who now needs a wizard

mykerush
11-07-2012, 02:35
Heresy!
Pistoliers and all fast cav, if played right, always get bang for their buck.

grumbaki
11-07-2012, 04:17
This thread makes me so happy to play dwarfs. Besides for the flame cannon, there just isn't anything in the book that comes across as being horribly overpriced or underpowered. :D

((Even the daemon slayer is not *bad* when run naked. He isn't the best choice by a long-shot, but is useable))

Skywave
11-07-2012, 04:36
Because if you want to compare them to TG

8 ushabti is 24 wounds compared to that unit of 30 halberd TG, with the TG unit being a few points cheaper.
This leads to TG being able to take more wounds then the ushabti and still stay combat effective

The TG also can be healed more, can get a 5+ KB versus the 6+ a Ushabti can get, and is safe place for characters to be in granting them a passive WS bonus.

That all leads to TG being way more versatile, and "Safer" then ushabti


I could be biased, as I mostly play against armies who have great shooting, which is a major weakness to ushabti. (Gunpowder weapons make them a joke)

No doubt that TG are easier to heal and have some more wounds. It's part of why Ushabti are overpriced, but not useless.


First
Tomb kings cant stand and shoot

Second
BS 2
A unit of 6 will hit twice a turn. That is a high cost unit for that measly amounts of shots, and by giving them the bows you are making them a measly str 4...

Third
Sure, smite them, thats now 4 shots for that high cost of a unit who now needs a wizard

BS2 is relatively irrelevant, hitting on 5+ is quite good considering you can move and be at long range (or targettin unit behind cover/in building). Personally I prefer that than normal BS 3 will all modifier. Those few shot can go a long way to help you. Tomb Guards will do nothing while they advance foward 4 inch, and the enemy can easily avoid them. Bowshabti can still shoot while moving foward (or stay still and wait), and S6 shot mean you can target some good target (knights, chariots, monsters, etc).

Yeah they'll need magic for smithing, but so is Tomb Guards to get KB on 5+ or extra healing, in addition to the characters you will want in the unit too. There's more expense if you want a good TG unit when you start to add the characters. Ushabti are WS 4 wich is perfectly good on it's own, so they don't rely as much on MWBD (and can't loose it before uding it).

No really, I know on paper TG seems better, but don't underestimate those Ushabti (unless you face extreme shooting like you said you are, then that's just not the right environment, rock paper scisors and all that) :)

GrandmasterWang
11-07-2012, 07:07
Ushabti should win a pt for pt mathhammer vs ironguts. They arent that bad. Compared with tomb guard the stomps and stomp immunity should be worth something. Also they are quicker.

For the record snake... If dwarf flame cannons were half their current pts id take 3

For most useless/ unseen. Can I vote the champion option on the ushabti ;)

I vote bragg the gutsman. I read his entry and thought they must have missed something (like a ward save for the bigfella )

Vipoid
11-07-2012, 10:48
BS2 is relatively irrelevant, hitting on 5+ is quite good considering you can move and be at long range (or targettin unit behind cover/in building). Personally I prefer that than normal BS 3 will all modifier. Those few shot can go a long way to help you. Tomb Guards will do nothing while they advance foward 4 inch, and the enemy can easily avoid them. Bowshabti can still shoot while moving foward (or stay still and wait), and S6 shot mean you can target some good target (knights, chariots, monsters, etc).

I agree that a straight 'always hit on 5+' is probably better than BS3 with modifiers, and is quite a nice ability. However, here's something you should probably bear in mind:

You're paying 50pts per shot.

In fact, if you want to do it statistically, then you're paying 150pts per hit.

Now, if each arrow was treated as if it had come from a Bolt Thrower, then I might think differently. But, 150pts for a single hit that can only ever kill a single model... no.

Memnos
11-07-2012, 11:52
Ushabti can have champions resurrected, have a bow that actually can target monsters and can be augmented in to a multi-shot weapon(With no penalties, period). They get Stomp. A unit of 6 can be augmented to 12 shots, 4 hits.

For roughly the same cost as a Monster, you get something that is a threat from day 1 and can go after a wide variety of targets.

It's not a no-brainer inclusion by any means, but it certainly has its place and doesn't deserve to be called 'useless'.

Phazael
11-07-2012, 16:24
@Bearded re (S)craplaunchers-
Except that chariots in general suck in this edition and the Dark Elf and Chaos Chariots are much better for less. The shooting attack is so horrific that its barely worth mentioning.

Ronin[XiC]
11-07-2012, 16:42
Chariots suck?
I usually take ~3 Goblin and ~3 Orc Chariots + 1-2 Pumpwagons in 2500 points. They are just amazing.
Combocharge 2 chariots with a unit and you'll break almost very unit.

+ They are cheap, super fast and no one cares if you lose them.

They block charge lanes, scare fliers and are an additional deployment point.

Chariots are AWESOME.

Vipoid
11-07-2012, 16:44
Ushabti can have champions resurrected, have a bow that actually can target monsters and can be augmented in to a multi-shot weapon(With no penalties, period). They get Stomp. A unit of 6 can be augmented to 12 shots, 4 hits.

For roughly the same cost as a Monster, you get something that is a threat from day 1 and can go after a wide variety of targets.

It's not a no-brainer inclusion by any means, but it certainly has its place and doesn't deserve to be called 'useless'.

With regard to the multi-shot ability, I'm not really sure that's a point in their favour. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice spell, but I just don't think you can count it as a good reason to use Ushabti. I mean, if you wanted to gaurentee that you got that spell, then you'd have to use a level 4 and a level 2 wizard (315pts minimum), and even then, it's hardly gaurenteed that you'll get off that spell every turn - let on the turn(s) in which it would be most beneficial.

I don't know - I just feel that a unit should be used because of its own merits - not because you can potentially cast a spell that might make them a bit better. Surely a genuinely good unit wouldn't need the buff in the first place?

In any case, I'm still not convinced that multi-shot makes them all that good. If you include the cost of the mages, then you're paying over 600pts for 4 hits per turn. Even if you exclude the mages (since they can do other things), and assume that they'll always get that spell off, 300pts (without champions etc.) still seems like a hell of a lot for just 4 hits per turn. :p

Although, I should probably say that I don't think Ushabti are useless - just overcosted.

The bearded one
11-07-2012, 16:59
I don't know - I just feel that a unit should be used because of its own merits - not because you can potentially cast a spell that might make them a bit better. Surely a genuinely good unit wouldn't need the buff in the first place?

The entire dark elf army just rolled its eyes.

Vipoid
11-07-2012, 17:00
The entire dark elf army just rolled its eyes.

Heh, fair point. :D

MooseOnTheLoose
11-07-2012, 18:38
Heresy!
Pistoliers and all fast cav, if played right, always get bang for their buck.

Except for Reavers :rolleyes:

Solegga
11-07-2012, 20:50
The Jabberslythe maybe... :shifty: Sure enough!


Overpriced and useless for Skaven? Two words...Vermin Lord. You get all the penalties of being a demon prince without any of the benefits, all for the low low price of 500 points.

Beat me to it! 500 points... for that?!

Lorcryst
11-07-2012, 21:01
Yup, those are both from 7th ed books though ... so, off-topic :p

Lance Tankmen
11-07-2012, 21:35
Yup, those are both from 7th ed books though ... so, off-topic :p

thank you lol

Maoriboy007
11-07-2012, 21:41
The entire dark elf army just rolled its eyes.Dark elves aren't particularly bad without mindrazor, they're just frikkin' awesome with it is all....

Moss
11-07-2012, 22:00
;6318443']
Combocharge 2 chariots with a unit and you'll break almost very unit.

+ They are cheap, super fast and no one cares if you lose them.

I love chariots and all, but they're not really that cheap. Most go for 100+ points, which isn't very expendable. And they are not "super fast" either when you consider that they can't march. As for combo charges, yes. They are devastating, but not reliable. Random charge range can make it difficult to get two into combat at the same time (and if one fails, there is a good chance that both will soon die).

Like I said, I love chariots, but they are far from awesome.

Phazael
11-07-2012, 23:02
Plus units of them in an army with cheap access to large busses of ranked units is a far leap from solo LD6 ones that cost more than a unit of gobbo chariots in an army that does not tend to have many ranks in it. Even the tripple wolf chariot charge is not going to scare most sizable infantry units, especially T4 infantry. They won't break steadfast and once the charge is over, the infantry block wins every round after that.

The bearded one
12-07-2012, 12:23
Dark elves aren't particularly bad without mindrazor, they're just frikkin' awesome with it is all....

Too bad either that, or the withering is their main tactic :p One of the tournament/ETC players who sometimes visits our local meta puts it eloquently: "mindrazuuuuuurh!"

Urgat
12-07-2012, 14:04
Even the tripple wolf chariot charge is not going to scare most sizable infantry units, especially T4 infantry. They won't break steadfast and once the charge is over, the infantry block wins every round after that.
Excepted triple wolf chariots usually come in OnG armies, with all that it entails regarding number of bodies on the table and which side is most likely to get steadfast in the first place, of course :p The only thing goblins can't outnumber are skaven slaves, and I'm pretty sure the field would be leveled after a chariot unit charge :p

Moses
12-07-2012, 15:13
As I've only played with or against Ogres of the 8th edition books, I'd have to say most unplayed is Scraplaunchers and Gorgers.

Scraplaunchers because of the existence of the Ironblaster which is like the Scraplauncher, but so much better.

Gorgers because they just don't do enough. As someone said, they be in combat by turn 3 as a best case scenario, by which point most of your army should be in combat as well.

Though if we're talking special characters as well, Bragg the Gutsman is horrendously overcosted

Snake1311
12-07-2012, 16:05
Too bad either that, or the withering is their main tactic :p One of the tournament/ETC players who sometimes visits our local meta puts it eloquently: "mindrazuuuuuurh!"

Its actully 'mindwazaaaaa'

The_Bureaucrat
12-07-2012, 19:01
Surprised nobody's mentioned the black coach. Yeah sure its hard to kill but it's basically a crappier roadblock than spirit hosts and deals almost no damage after the charge.

Worst of the 8th though definitely goes to TK heavy horsemen tho.

Lance Tankmen
13-07-2012, 06:11
TK have heavy horsemen?

Yamabushi
13-07-2012, 06:59
Yea...although that's the old name for them. Its now just plain "Skeleton Horseman", with a 4+ armor save, the second highest armor save in the army!

-Totenkopf-
14-07-2012, 02:35
The best use for for tk want-to-be-but-not-quite heavy horsemen is a 4+save vs shooting for your mounted lich priest.. sometimes for a surprisingly fast surprise redirect..

Montegue
14-07-2012, 06:28
Some will disagree with me, but I have to go with the Dwarf Troll Slayer. It sits on most dwarf player shelves, and generally under performs for it's price. It's 30 model limit and complete lack of any save make it only marginally useful for it's point cost.

Lance Tankmen
14-07-2012, 08:20
Some will disagree with me, but I have to go with the Dwarf Troll Slayer. It sits on most dwarf player shelves, and generally under performs for it's price. It's 30 model limit and complete lack of any save make it only marginally useful for it's point cost. i dont disagree but its off topic :)

Montegue
14-07-2012, 15:24
i dont disagree but its off topic :)

Right. 8th ed. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Vaughnilla619
15-07-2012, 23:31
Black Orcs are worthless in this game imo. Their point cost for what they do is overkill. The only reason i could see anyone using a black orc unit to do is to fight off weaker units or if you wanted to take Grimgor Ironhide.

why pay for a special unit model that costs 1 more point then an upgraded core model that has the same weapon skill, strength, toughness, 3 attacks, and garunteed 6+ ward save?

im sorry but this is the worst model for point and class value.

Jerry
16-07-2012, 02:58
Black Orcs are worthless in this game imo. Their point cost for what they do is overkill. The only reason i could see anyone using a black orc unit to do is to fight off weaker units or if you wanted to take Grimgor Ironhide.

why pay for a special unit model that costs 1 more point then an upgraded core model that has the same weapon skill, strength, toughness, 3 attacks, and garunteed 6+ ward save?

im sorry but this is the worst model for point and class value.

No they have access to great weapons which means they are S7 on the first round of combat and S6 on subsequent rounds. BTW assuming you're referring to savage orcs I hope you realise they have frenzy which means they can be led on hilarious chases whereas black orcs have no such issue.

The bearded one
16-07-2012, 03:44
No they have access to great weapons which means they are S7 on the first round of combat and S6 on subsequent rounds. BTW assuming you're referring to savage orcs I hope you realise they have frenzy which means they can be led on hilarious chases whereas black orcs have no such issue.

Black orcs aren't that bad.

Black orcs are the same as big 'uns except:
- heavy armour
- ability to choose between close combat weapons, including great weapons
- immune to psychology
- immune to animosity (important!)
- can be taken in multiple units (big 'uns are 0-1)
- and they can take magic banners can't they?

savage big 'uns have
- frenzy
- warpaint

Vaughnilla619
16-07-2012, 06:15
No they have access to great weapons which means they are S7 on the first round of combat and S6 on subsequent rounds. BTW assuming you're referring to savage orcs I hope you realise they have frenzy which means they can be led on hilarious chases whereas black orcs have no such issue.

How many black orcs would you run tho? i just dont see them stacking up in a big fight with the elite fighting units in other armies. okay they have strength 7 with great weapons in first round but how many attaks is that? I just dont see them being able to withstand any kind of real opposition with their striking last, point total, and 5+ armor save.

in a 5 man wide unit, thats only 11 attacks if you have a champion. 7 wide then 15. They dont put up enough attacks and dont have a good enough armor save against anything better then strength 3

Why
16-07-2012, 06:38
Throw them into a 40 man horde and numbers will help them survive and counter ASL, same principle as bestigors.

Jerry
16-07-2012, 08:13
I'm not saying black orcs are the best unit ever, I'm just pointing out that they are not overpriced/useless/unplayed. Their strength lies in the fact that they are probably the most reliable big block unit in the OnG book since they don't suffer from animosity/frenzy and still pack a punch bearing in mind they are still cheaper than most other elite troops.

GrandmasterWang
16-07-2012, 11:15
Black orcs are fricking awesome!! The immune to animosity is,almost worth it alone. Strength 7 infantry (nuff said). Its only 1 round but what other armies can have strength 7 infantry??? Black orcs are one of my most feared units to vs. Even blood knights only get a 6+ save vs them first round. Monsters and most characters have a lot to fear from them also. I mean if they were like 15 pts each id agree with you but at their points cost their sheer damage potential and most importantly reliability makes them very valuable to an orc force.

Snotlings however would possibly be valuable.... Except for the fact that goblins can be fielded

Bingo the Fun Monkey
16-07-2012, 11:25
I can speak from experience that Black Orcs are worth taking in the right army. Black Orcs really come into their own, I find, in orcy armies rather than with Night Goblins as seems to be the trend on the army list forum. Small boar boy units, chariots, bosses on chariots and big blocks of Orcs provide the kind of environment where Black Orcs can, if deployed correctly, put their prowess where it is needed most.

Yowzo
16-07-2012, 11:52
How many black orcs would you run tho? i just dont see them stacking up in a big fight with the elite fighting units in other armies. okay they have strength 7 with great weapons in first round but how many attaks is that? I just dont see them being able to withstand any kind of real opposition with their striking last, point total, and 5+ armor save.

Leave the gobbos to tarpit those elites.

Black orcs can be taken on small units of 18 or 21, with the flame banner against regerating beasties. Relatively high ld and no animosity means they can operate independently on the flanks.

Give them the S5 double choppa first turn and watch those trolls and hydras cry, even HPA can fall to them. S6(7) GW can make a mess of steam tanks and mournfangs as well.

They're a very useful tool, even though they're a little overpriced just the fact that you don't need to babysit them is a godsend as it allows you to spread your deployment a little bit.

Of course, if you run grimgor WS5 black orcs with hatred are an absolute blender.

Marauder_chieftan
16-07-2012, 13:49
My black orcs are a mixed bag, sometimes they suck sometimes they don't, but it's largely down to my poor deployment decisions.

Some one earlier said that the regular orc boys aren't as good as the savages, but i personally prefer the regulars over the savages. It shouldn't just be about the rules, i prefer my orcs with clothes on, simple as, and the models look great. Even in a rule orientated talk, i find the orc boys are really good, and typically are one of my top performers.

If i had to vouch for under-used/useless units, i'd have to agree with some of the empire core choices, as well as the greatswords, they never seem to last very long or do any good, and they seem very overpriced, especially if you compare greatswords with black orcs.

I'm probably going to get disagreed with here, but i find spider riders to be really useless, and i often don't bother taking them.

slirgy
17-07-2012, 17:57
Glade Riders
Wardancers
Warhawk Riders
Wild riders

Wait, there seems to be a pattern...


thesheriff

hey...... wardancers and wild riders arent that bad im getting quite defensive here

Lorcryst
17-07-2012, 18:18
hey...... wardancers and wild riders arent that bad im getting quite defensive here

Maybe ... don't know really, Wood Elves is one of the two army books I don't have ... but this is STILL off-topic :p

grumbaki
17-07-2012, 20:08
war dancers were great in 7th edition. My dwarf warriors were all but helpless before them because they could never swing back. I haven't played against them in 8th...but with great weapon warriors swinging back, I'd imagine that their usefulness has gone down dramatically.

DrMooreFlava
17-07-2012, 21:39
I'll say it.

Arrer boyz.

My object of virtue
perfectly useless
and beautiful.

Love em til death.
Hate em forever.

I play them in my campaign, a block o'25 boyz :cheese:
Got 25 more waitin to be painted up.