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warplock
06-07-2012, 10:19
1. Say a Chaos Lord armed with the Glaive of Purification attacks some Goblins. Would he have to reveal what he has? Nothing the Glaive does affects the Goblins.
2. What about if he's attacking a Spirit Host? Would it be enough for him to just say 'I have a magic weapon'?
3. Units with Banner of Eternal Flame attacking a unit which has no regen and no resistance to flaming attacks. Do you still have to declare you have the banner?

Smogg
06-07-2012, 10:51
1. If you use the item, i think you need to reveal it. You never know if the opponent have something that can counter or destroy it.
2. Again I would say if you use the item you need to declare what item you are using.
3. Your opponent may be equipped with an item that provides saves against flaming attacks. If you make a flaming attack your opponent has a right to know.

warplock
06-07-2012, 11:02
I appreciate that if the enemy might have something which could counter the item, you'd have to mention it. But say you're attacking a unit of Goblins who have no characters and no banners, you'd know that they can't affect or be affected by flaming attacks, for example. I agree that to be safe you should declare it, but it's happened to me in the past that weapons and the like have been kept secret from me leading to a nasty surprise and I wanted to check whether this is forbidden in the rules or whether we'll need to come to a gentleman's agreement.

Metacarpi
06-07-2012, 12:30
It's generally accepted that magic items etc are declared when you use them, right? There's a rule in the BRB (I don't have it with me, so I can't give a page reference) that's called something like "I'm Using That One!" that says that a character with a magical weapon always uses it over mundane weapons. So in the example outlined, yes, I think you'd declare the weapon, even if it wont have any influence on the combat.

Ultimate Life Form
06-07-2012, 15:33
The moment it's used, it is revealed... at least that's the way we play it (and also the fairest).

AntaresCD
06-07-2012, 17:33
The moment you do something that a magic item, banner, whatever affects, it's revealed in full. The justification is 2-fold. First, there is always a possibility (however remote you think it may be is immaterial) that the opponent has something relevant to it that they would have to declare, as is the case for #3. Second, the idea behind the rule is that initially you see only the basics of what's on the board: the characters (and their roles), the units, command models, weapons, etc. Once something comes into play, even if its effects don't do anything currently, such as in case #1, the opponent sees it and recognizes it for what it is.

Further, revealing things as you use them is much, much, simpler and if your opponent kept things from you in the past then instead of trying to cheat/bend the rules as they did you should play fair and insist on the same.

Simple rule of thumb for magical items:
-Weapons are revealed the first time you attack with them.
-Armor is revealed the first time that model is attacked.
-Anything that provides a Special Rule is applied when that Special Rule comes into play (i.e. Banner of the Eternal Flame is revealed when you attack).
-Everything that is left is revealed when its effect is used, could affect the opponent, or does affect you (i.e. Banner of Sorcery is revealed at the start of the HE's first Magic Phase).

If you go along the lines of, I give only the minimal data based on what could affect the opponent, such as it's a magical weapon, but not declaring which one, since you believe its effects aren't relevant not only are you making the assumption (which granted could be correct) that there is nothing relevant, you are opening the window to large mistakes. Don't declare that the attack was flaming since you didn't think there was any regen or flammable targets, oops he had an item/banner/whatever on the champion/etc that gave a ward save against flaming. Or worse, you get used to not declaring the banner, and you forget to do it at some point where it is relevant because 9 times out of 10 the opponents you're playing don't have regen in the units you shoot at. Why risk that? There are enough possible complications in this game and not revealing items fully as they come into play could be considered cheating when it does happen that you missed something and it would be your fault since you thought the items full effects weren't relevant.

Bottomline: You can't see their list and they can't see yours. Reveal any magic item (and special rules, effects, whatever) when they come into play, even if they don't do anything under the current circumstances. They are in play, therefore they must be known. To assume that the information is not relevant and therefore that you may hide it is folly and poor sportsmanship in the best case and cheating (not maliciously, but an advantage outside the rules nonetheless) in the worst case.

There is nothing explicit in the rules about these matters (unfortunately), but the faq entries, brb, and various army book effects implicitly provide this. If that doesn't wash with your group them point out the simple benefit that it is more streamlined, prevents mistakes (malicious or otherwise), and has a simple logic to it that fits.

Askari
09-07-2012, 18:09
Everyone else has covered it well, but I'll just chime in and say I'm of the same opinion as the others - reveal all details when even remotely relevant. Just saying "I have a magic weapon" will not cut it.

Asensur
09-07-2012, 23:56
The partial, complete, compulsory and/or voluntary use of a magic item reveals that item for the rest of the match.

Remember that magic weapons are used when attacking and magic armours are used when being hit.

For example, if you need to roll for a magic item at the begining of the first turn, you need to reveal the entire item from that moment.


Also, magic items equipped by default are also revealed from the start of the match (f.e. a special character magic item or the Ensorcelled Hand Weapon from the Chaos Dwarfs).

Remember that even if your opponent does or may not have access to your army list during the match, he still has access to you army book.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-07-2012, 10:02
Those aren't really satisfying definitions.

How does something come into play that doesn't do anything? My BotEF does not affect many enemies; I'm not doing anything with it that affects simple troopers by fighting them, they do not activate it.

Reveal items when they come into play...how do I know it comes into play? Same goes for "reveal if they could potentially affect". I would have to know that a character in that unit has the Dragonbane thingy beforehand, I don't know that my banner comes into play beforehand. So...At what point in time does the banner come into play? Do characters that get charged by units that could potentially have a magic banner have to declare their equipment first, as it could potentially affect the charger?

Askari
10-07-2012, 10:13
The Banner comes into affect once you're in close combat surely. Even if it doesn't have any effect on the unit in question you still have Flaming Attacks. So you need to reveal it.

The whole "How do I know if it'll affect my opponent?" isn't relevant, the onus is on the opponent to know what his magic items do, you simply declare "I have Flaming Attacks because of whatever" once your in combat, the order doesn't matter at all. Same with your charging a magic banner charge, your opponent will tell you if the charged unit has a banner that somehow affects the charge (but of course, if it only affects close combat, you can put off declaring it until the combat phase).

Lord Solar Plexus
11-07-2012, 11:10
The Banner comes into affect once you're in close combat surely.


Good to know that the banner only has to be revealed in CC; I can now shoot my crossbows without having to reveal it. See the problem I have with the definition?



Even if it doesn't have any effect on the unit in question you still have Flaming Attacks. So you need to reveal it.


This definition means I must reveal something because I have it. You are saying you have X, -> reveal it. Which is at the earlierst possible opportunity. Why does that apply to the BotEF but not to armour? Is there anything in the rules that helps us out?



The whole "How do I know if it'll affect my opponent?" isn't relevant, the onus is on the opponent to know what his magic items do, you simply declare "I have Flaming Attacks because of whatever" once your in combat, the order doesn't matter at all.


The reasoning given earlier was that you have to declare a magic item as soon as it affects something. Therefore *I* must know if it affects something, which is not always the case. Since my opponent does not yet know about the banner, he is not affected and cannot declare his Dragon Gem. Since I do not know about his Gem, I am not affected...you get the gist. Very formalized, but there are times when I wish to keep my opponent in the dark - and the principle is the same with almost every other item.

This does not even touch on any situation with no character, item or gem. It also has nothing to do with anyone knowing his stuff. That does not answer at what point in time it has to be revealed.

Lastly, why in combat? You said it doesn't matter whether it affects the opponent, so how is combat any different from not-combat?



Same with your charging a magic banner charge, your opponent will tell you if the charged unit has a banner that somehow affects the charge (but of course, if it only affects close combat, you can put off declaring it until the combat phase).

Emphasis mine. Now I'm officially confused. You just said I'll have to reveal a Banner even if it doesn't have an effect.

---
All of this notwithstanding, I think the only time the definition "reveal once used/in play/active/affects s.th." breaks down is the BotEF, and even then only partly. In almost all other cases I can imagine, the "point or source of activation" is well known: Armour is only relevant when wounded, you know when you are charged, you know when you roll to hit or that model X is being targeted and so on. Only the presence of a Dragon Bane Gem is not known, and the bearer does not know about the flaming attacks, so it's probably best to treat this one as an exception.

Askari
11-07-2012, 13:22
Good to know that the banner only has to be revealed in CC; I can now shoot my crossbows without having to reveal it. See the problem I have with the definition?

Urgh, I forgot the BotEF affects shooting. In which case it's revealed earlier - as soon as you first shoot with the unit bearing it.




This definition means I must reveal something because I have it. You are saying you have X, -> reveal it. Which is at the earlierst possible opportunity. Why does that apply to the BotEF but not to armour? Is there anything in the rules that helps us out?

You reveal the banner once it matters you have Flaming Attacks (i.e. just prior or during rolling to hit, I suppose) I'd probably reveal armour at the same time as well, once it's been declared what's going to be targetted.



Lastly, why in combat? You said it doesn't matter whether it affects the opponent, so how is combat any different from not-combat?


I was still using the Banner of Eternal Flame as an example and forgot it affects shooting. There is no difference from combat and non-combat.


The reasoning given earlier was that you have to declare a magic item as soon as it affects something. Therefore *I* must know if it affects something, which is not always the case. Since my opponent does not yet know about the banner, he is not affected and cannot declare his Dragon Gem. Since I do not know about his Gem, I am not affected...you get the gist. Very formalized, but there are times when I wish to keep my opponent in the dark - and the principle is the same with almost every other item.

That's rather circular - you need to tell your opponent you have Flaming Attacks with that unit when shooting or close combat. It doesn't matter if the opponent has Regen or a Dragonbane Gem or whatever, you do have Flaming Attacks. That simple, the effect is in play whether it has any additional effects or not.

Artiee
11-07-2012, 14:34
Its best to reveil with its going to be used. You don't know what effects its going to happen until its stated.

Since we are using Banner of Eternal Flame as a example. You hit a unit of Gors with a WarGor. Your unit with the banner distroy the Gors because the Gors have no save. They flee and you run them down. Later you attack something with regen and you declare flaming attacks. Now how you deal that your unit had flaming attacks but you didnt declare it with the unit of Gors. You find out that the WarGor had the Blackend Plate with gives the unit +4 Ward save vs flaming attacks.

dementian
11-07-2012, 14:45
As soon as your magic item exhibits an effect it should be revealed.

If that is the banner of eternal flame. When you are attacking (either ranged or at the start of close combat as you may be causing fear) you should declare that your unit has flaming attacks due to the banner of eternal flame. If you have the charmed shield as soon as you are hit, declare you have the shield and roll your dice.

I don't understand how people would be trying to avoid telling their opponent that they have magic items its a dirty underhanded move as you are essentially lying to your opponent.

If you want to avoid people knowing what magic items you have then try your best to have them not take effect. For instance, if you have the +1 movement banner I would say that you do not need to reveal it until you make use of that +1 movement. So if your unit has move 4 naturally if you do not move more than 4" I wouldn't say you would need to reveal it.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-07-2012, 15:07
But Askari, you are going in circles. First you say that you reveal the Banner or any other item once it matters. Then you say there is no difference from combat and non-combat (let's ignore shooting for the time being, I was admittedly pulling your legs a bit with that one). Does your item matter in both cases? Then it matters always; there is no inbetween. A unit is either in combat or not.



That's rather circular - you need to tell your opponent you have Flaming Attacks with that unit when shooting or close combat.


That's the question! Why do I need to do that at this particular point? Because, so you argue, now it matters. Why, I say, these Gobbos don't have . It does not matter, you reply, if they could be affected by FA. If it does not matter if or when they are affected, why do I have to declare it now and not at any other point when not in combat when the very same condition - doesn't affect anyone, doesn't matter - is met?



It doesn't matter if the opponent has Regen or a Dragonbane Gem or whatever, [I]you do have Flaming Attacks. That simple, the effect is in play whether it has any additional effects or not.

I do have Flaming attacks as soon as I set up my unit. I have any and all other magic properties and effects of all other items. They are in play immediately following setup if they are not activated by their effects. With this line of reasoning you would have to declare everything and play with open lists, and you cannot make a convincing argument why the item with its existing or non-existing effects will have to be revealed at some completely arbitrary point in time (since combat does not change this state).

Artiee
11-07-2012, 15:19
I look at this way.

You only know what your "scouting" reports tell you. Via "scouting", You know that there is units of 25. You know that they are armed with weapons, (Sword/Board, 2handed, etc). You know that they have a Champ, music, banner. You know that they have a higher leader. You don't know the effects of magic items. When a unit with flaming attacks, your "scouting" see the attacks. So they report flaming.

Askari
11-07-2012, 16:28
I do have Flaming attacks as soon as I set up my unit. I have any and all other magic properties and effects of all other items. They are in play immediately following setup if they are not activated by their effects. With this line of reasoning you would have to declare everything and play with open lists, and you cannot make a convincing argument why the item with its existing or non-existing effects will have to be revealed at some completely arbitrary point in time (since combat does not change this state).

I do understand what you're saying, I'm mostly responding as to how I (and by extension, my group) does it moreso than pure-rules as it is quite unclear.

However, my point is, in this example, Flaming Attacks matter when you're striking an opponent. It does nothing when moving, or being struck, or when affected by a spell or whatever. Therefore, when the time comes to strike an opponent, that's when it's declared, regardless if the opponent has any protection or vulnerability to said attacks, that time is when they become relevant. Now, I understand you say if the opponent doesn't have Flammable or a Dragonbane Gem or whatever, then technically the banner still does nothing, but you are still attacking with flaming attacks, triggering the potential benefit/downside, as opposed to just standing with flaming attacks.

Does that make sense?

Ultimate Life Form
11-07-2012, 19:17
Basically the moment something modifies the normal game mechanics it must be revealed. When you shoot with flaming arrows instead of normal ones it has to be made clear because it is not a regular shooting attack.

Asensur
12-07-2012, 09:41
Just checked the rulebook and find something.

You can't hide magic items to your opponent.

There is no mention of items being hidden at the start of the match. And also there is no mention of revealing magic items.

So, they should be considered open as everything else.

Think about it:
-If items are hidden special characters are on disadvantage as they have default magic items
-Some magic items force you to roll for an effect "at the start of". Many of these affects are negative to the bearer. If the item is being hidden, the player could not say anything about that roll.
-There are mentions of fanatics, assassins and other models being hidden in the unit, but there is no mention of any magic item being hidden.
-Magic items use to have glowing effects in 'real' life (Oh look! that chaos paladin has a sword on fire, it must be only a hand weapon anyway...)
-It is hard to check which items are already revealed and which not.

Ultimate Life Form
12-07-2012, 09:56
Just checked the rulebook and find something.
You can't hide magic items to your opponent.

Quote please.


And also there is no mention of revealing magic items.

Then all those spells and skills whose sole purpose is to force the opponent to reveal a unit's magic items must have been my imagination.


-If items are hidden special characters are on disadvantage as they have default magic items


That's not really a rules argument; people who use SC are bad persons anyway so they deserve to get shafted.


-Some magic items force you to roll for an effect "at the start of". Many of these affects are negative to the bearer. If the item is being hidden, the player could not say anything about that roll.


Then he's cheating. Since it's a Magic Item's effect, it must be revealed. Like in the FAQ where it said the Fellblade damage roll must be taken even if the bearer is an Assassin hidden in a unit.


-There are mentions of fanatics, assassins and other models being hidden in the unit, but there is no mention of any magic item being hidden.


Again I fail to see then why some things would 'reveal' something that isn't hidden to begin with. Seems kind of pointless to me. Assassins and Fanatics being hidden being explicitly spelled out is because it's an exception. Because normally models that belong to a unit are not hidden. So in order to have them be able to hide you have to say so first. With Magic Items it's just the opposite; they're normally hidden so there's no need to say they are.


-Magic items use to have glowing effects in 'real' life

Please post a picture of a real life magic weapon to substantiate your claim.


-It is hard to check which items are already revealed and which not.

Interesting rule... maybe if you're 5 years old. I'm pretty sure at least my opponent would remember that sword that ripped him a new one.

Asensur
12-07-2012, 10:26
Text

Just checked again, and I understand your argument.

Anyway, has anyone posted this?

Q: Do I have to show my opponent my army roster at the start of a
battle, or can I wait until the end of the game, which means I only
need to reveal things like which magic items my characters have
taken when I first use them? (p132)
A: If you think this may be an issue, discuss it with your
opponent before the game starts. Some players prefer full
disclosure at the start of the battle, while others prefer to wait
until the battle has finished before revealing their roster. It is
for you and your opponent to decide which method you prefer
to use.

Magic items are revealed when they are used first (yes, even a partial use is a use, f.e. the roll of the Fellblade reveals the Fellblade even being partially used)

hazmiter
12-07-2012, 11:01
Declaration of an item is compulsory in the case of the banner of eternal flame, even more so, because in example.
Skaven bsb has banner eternal flame, he fights a high elf w armour of caledor.... Doesn't declare banner, wins combat, then declares it on summoned hydra.... This is bad form, and also very very not nice, said player won't get a game again....

Lord Solar Plexus
12-07-2012, 13:27
Does that make sense?

Yes, of course it does, it makes a lot of sense, and it is a good way to play it. It's however not how my gaming group plays. I just thought someone would perhaps unearth some hidden statement from the rules.


Just checked the rulebook and find something.


I'm not sure it is so clear-cut from a purely rules-point of view. Last game, my opponent rolled for his Fellblade without me knowing or realizing and suffered two wounds. He was honest about it, and had I remembered its effects I might have asked him to roll openly. I even think he should have done that but I can only argue on the grounds of game effect, not rules.


Declaration of an item is compulsory in the case of the banner of eternal flame

hazmiter, the question we are trying to answer is when it has to be revealed. Your example implicitly relays to this question but this introducing statement as such is wrong.

In your example, the banner could have an effect, so I agree that in order to find out, one must reveal it. If the BSB had attacked a unit of Spearelves without a character outside of a building instead, what would be the point of revealing it? Perhaps the bearer did not set it aflame yet? Perhaps he carried it in a magical magic-flame-subduing-scabbard (Loec's/Ulric's/Khorne's Extinguisher?)? ;)

At the end of the day, I would rephrase the original answer ("An item must be revealed as soon as it is used/has an effect") to "as soon as it could possibly/potentially have and effect." I think this is a good compromise between the wish to surprise an opponent and the need for transparency.

kefkah
12-07-2012, 22:33
In the spirit of the game,declare when a item is used, no nasty stuff.

And i speak from exp. Had reg on strigoi, but the item wich gives +2 ward save against flamings, so when i got sniped by his maneaters with poision attacks i backed off a little to shield him. When he gets in a natural 6 on turn 3 after 2 rounds of sniping then he declares he has flaming banner. LOL, if i had know it on round 1 when i got the first hits i wouldent run back and try to shield my general.

So yeah, say when you use the banner/weapon,the first time its used.

Senor
13-07-2012, 09:36
Is it not the sport (or even rule) aswell to have these mentioned on the army list of the army you have on the table (or still beside the table, awaiting deployment in the 2nd or later turn)

Assasin hero is mentioned, Banner is mentioned, Magic item to have extra attack on every unsaved wound is mentioned. I always ask for their army list up-front and know what to look for.

hazmiter
13-07-2012, 10:56
Assassin is a hidden hero who pops out of a pre determined unit, thus, can't reveal on main list... Otherwise you can just avoid or shoot that unit.

Ratarsed
13-07-2012, 22:05
Personally I don't think it is necessary to keep magic items a secret past deployment, but you don't want to go openly decaring them all either. In the case of the BoEF the magic item should be revealed as soon as the unit makes an attack. (I think it would noticed by all if their swords or arrows suddenly burst into flame!) Basicaly declare the item as soon as it might even remotley be of importance. The fellblade for example should be declared as soon as you roll dice to determine if it inflicts a wound on the wielder. Be fair and you should not go wrong.

N1AK
15-07-2012, 09:34
Those aren't really satisfying definitions.

How does something come into play that doesn't do anything? My BotEF does not affect many enemies; I'm not doing anything with it that affects simple troopers by fighting them, they do not activate it.

Reveal items when they come into play...how do I know it comes into play? Same goes for "reveal if they could potentially affect". I would have to know that a character in that unit has the Dragonbane thingy beforehand, I don't know that my banner comes into play beforehand. So...At what point in time does the banner come into play? Do characters that get charged by units that could potentially have a magic banner have to declare their equipment first, as it could potentially affect the charger?

The banner grants flaming attacks. When you attack you declare it because it has 'done something'; it has affected the units attacked (it just doesn't make them any better). The same with magic weapons. My biting blade may not help against a troll but I am using it, thus "My Hero makes 4 attacks, WS6 S5 with the biting blade". You need to declare when going through lists armour types that come from magic items as these should be wysiwyg, although I admit this is more for clarity than rationality, surely someone in plate armour could be wearing a 'helm' without it being the Dragonhelm for example. The benefit of the armour is declared when it could be used. Glittering scales (-1 to hit) would be declared when the first attacks are rolled against him, armour that increases toughness when the first rolls to wound are made, armour that alters save when first save is rolled etc.

Truthfully there isn't a RAW way to handle declaring magic items. The issue with trying to play right on the line of only declaring items when they change things is that in order to ensure that nothing is missed, without declaring items, you'd have to go through checklists constantly "So does anything in this combat require that I declare anything causing flaming attacks? magical attacks? magic items? etc". Also due to the ambiguity left by the rules different groups play by different standards and standardising on one that ensures you declare everything you should is better than risking not declaring something they are entitled to know.

In short, if by not declaring a magic item when used the result of the game is changed then it is cheating. If someone can with 100% reliability only declare certain items when they don't change the game then they are within the bounds of RAW. That still wouldn't alter that flaming attacks need to be announced (because the attack itself has been changed).

N1AK
15-07-2012, 09:41
In the spirit of the game,declare when a item is used, no nasty stuff.

And i speak from exp. Had reg on strigoi, but the item wich gives +2 ward save against flamings, so when i got sniped by his maneaters with poision attacks i backed off a little to shield him. When he gets in a natural 6 on turn 3 after 2 rounds of sniping then he declares he has flaming banner. LOL, if i had know it on round 1 when i got the first hits i wouldent run back and try to shield my general.


This is exactly the issue with people trying to work out whether they need to declare abilities/items etc when using them. He may not have intended to and he may not have known he was but the moment he made flaming attacks without declaring they were flaming he cheated. The result of the game isn't valid, which in a tournament would mean it would have to be granted as a massacre to his opponent.

N1AK
15-07-2012, 09:51
I'm not sure it is so clear-cut from a purely rules-point of view. Last game, my opponent rolled for his Fellblade without me knowing or realizing and suffered two wounds. He was honest about it, and had I remembered its effects I might have asked him to roll openly. I even think he should have done that but I can only argue on the grounds of game effect, not rules.


I think it is a fundamental premise of wargaming that all dice rolls be open (obviously if people agree to play it differently then I don't care). If you didn't see the rolls then you don't 'know' the rolls happened or what the results were, so I'm 100% certain what he did was only 'ok by the rules' if it would also be ok for me to roll all my dice rolls in secret and tell you the results. Secondly, in this particular case he was concealing that a model had taken wounds something which again I don't think is any more ok than my refusing to mark wounds, saying I am tracking them on my list and refusing to tell you how many wounds a model has taken/remaining in total (especially with VC and my Lore ability).

Asensur
17-07-2012, 07:04
This is exactly the issue with people trying to work out whether they need to declare abilities/items etc when using them. He may not have intended to and he may not have known he was but the moment he made flaming attacks without declaring they were flaming he cheated. The result of the game isn't valid, which in a tournament would mean it would have to be granted as a massacre to his opponent.

In our tournaments there is the rule that if a player forgot to reveal a magic item when he had to, that item count as destroyed for that match. Same as Fanatics, hidden characters, etc.

The partial or complete use of a text from a magic item reveals that item.

Also, the use of special rules granted by the item, or characteristic test that have a modificator from the item, also reveal that item.

Magic weapons are revealed when you attack. Magic Armours are revealed when attacked.