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View Full Version : The hyperphase sword conundrum from an outsiders point of view



Siphon
06-07-2012, 21:45
At the risk of throwing fuel on a simmering fire, I thought I would share my experience on this debate. As I often do when I am unsure of something I thought it over long and hard and decided to go with a purely objective based solution to the problem.

I asked my girlfriend.

I opened the codex to the color pictures called her in and asked "What kind of weapons are those?", to which she replied "Ummm, they look like funny axes, I guess." I then explained and showed her that they are called Hyperphase swords in the book. Since she loves to play by rules she then said if they call it a sword, it's a sword.

So finally I opened the BRB and showed her the power weapon rules about counting the weapon as what it looks like on the model and her, now being a little bored as she always is with my toys, said "They really don't know how to write rules do they? It looks like an axe so I guess it's an axe that's called a sword."

I went on to explain the drama happening on these boards and she gave me that look she does sometimes when shes not sure I'm really 30 years old.

;)

Chapters Unwritten
06-07-2012, 22:01
I personally don't see what all the fuss is about. It says it's a sword right in the name, and even though it looks like an axe, it is clearly not one; it is more blade than handle so I would consider it, without a doubt, a sword - modeled similarly to the Khopesh (sp?) swords made famous in Egyptian culture and The Mummy movies.

EDIT: Like this one:

http://getasword.com/3840-large/egyptian-khopesh-sword-black.jpg

vitch
06-07-2012, 22:07
What's a girlfriend?

Is it a Fast Attack choice?

It's a sword. It's called a sword. It's a sword.

Lord Damocles
06-07-2012, 22:08
I don't really see the confusion either.

It looks a bit axe-like, but it's called a Hyperphase Sword - which gives something of a clue.


It's not like it's even an issue unless you're so incredibly lazy/incompetant that you can't/won't do just a little conversion work to make them less swordy and more axey (or lancey, or mauly).

Konovalev
06-07-2012, 22:46
What's a girlfriend?

Is it a Fast Attack choice?

HQ choice usually...

Also I agree, sword in name but also in function. As said these are similar to ancient egyptian swords, which while vaguely resembling a goofy axe, were still swords.

From another angle, ruleswise, the designers clearly knew what 6th had in store. So why would they make hyperphase sword-axes that are functionally similar to warscythes available to models that can already have warscythes?

Buddha777
06-07-2012, 23:07
I don't get the fuss from the either end, it looks like an axe so it can be used as an axe.

All powerweapons are WSYIWYG now.

Lychguard have powerweapons.

Their powerweapons look like axes.

Lychguard can have poweraxes.


The whole "swords" thing in their name is irrelevant; otherwise my crypteks with eldritch lances should be getting the lance rule. Finally, can we please put to rest the whole it looks like a khopesh thing, it doesn't have a curve nor a rod at the back on the model. If anything there should be no confusion that it is an axe.

Stonerhino
06-07-2012, 23:10
Yes because we all know all axes have Gauss hafts.

Spiney Norman
06-07-2012, 23:18
The problem is GWs complete inability to write adequate rules, the rules for power weapons are idiotic, the notion that you can effectively upgrade a weapon for free just by it being modelled as an axe rather than a sword is so retarded. If they hadn't nerfed power swords no-one would care about this.

If someone was kicking up a stink about counting HPswords as pwr axes I'd be happy enough to count them as swords, but generally I'm happy to let folks declare their power weapons to be whatever type they like. Somethings just aren't worth sacrificing gaming enjoyment over.

Steinhardt
06-07-2012, 23:33
What's a girlfriend?

Is it a Fast Attack choice?


Well you'd never get away with calling her a Heavy Support choice...

theunwantedbeing
06-07-2012, 23:34
It's a sword, the blade goes to the hilt.
In all the imagery in the necron book and on the actual models themselves.

As the rules say they are just power weapons, you get to model them to use any of the 3 different rules but as far as I'm concerned if you use the standard model for them they're power SWORDS and have to follow the rules for them.

Shadowfane
06-07-2012, 23:55
Sigh....do we *really* need another thread on this? Granted it started with an amusing change of pace, but we all know its going to descend to the same level as the other one, with one side saying
"Its a sword! A sword, dammit!" and stamping their feet in a temper tantrum reminiscent of a three year old in a supermarket when he's told he can't have sweeties, and the other side doing much the same thing except saying
"I can say its an axe if I want! I can!!"....

Gunless Ganger
07-07-2012, 00:46
This argument reminds me of little children saying
"bang you're dead!"
"No I dodged it!"
"No you didn't stop pretending wrong!"

I'm sure we'll see an accurate and timely update to all the FAQs to fix problems just like this... ... ... :) :D ok I almost believed that for a second.

CaptSnoflake
07-07-2012, 00:55
allow me to direct you to this document http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh yes i know its the internet.. but it is historically correct.
it still dose not negate what the rule book/codex says if its a sword it can look like a apple it still called a sword.

owen matthew
07-07-2012, 01:01
HQ choice usually...



She certainly becomes one when you upgrade and marry her. ;)

agurus1
07-07-2012, 01:32
She certainly becomes one when you upgrade and marry her. ;)

so like a tervigon is a a troops choice, but you can take it as a HQ?

Azulthar
07-07-2012, 01:57
Hyperphase Swords are axes! Oh internet...

Nubl0
07-07-2012, 02:13
My lychguard with swords have taken on a new role, They now act as marine clearers and small bodyguard units for important characters. I just manned up and bought 2 new sets to make into scythe armed ones who will act as a super hammer unit if I ever feel the need to include one. That said I still find the best way to kill termie squads is to force them to make a crap load of saves, tesla weapons do this well.

Battleworthy Arts
07-07-2012, 03:20
Any assertion that a hyper phase sword is anything other than a sword is ludicrous.

lantzkev
07-07-2012, 03:27
Wait it's WYSIWYG, I can model all my power swords to look like axes now, without having a codex entry for it and get credit for having a power axe? sweet. :shifty:

CaptSnoflake
07-07-2012, 03:32
its a sword.. i can sight references in history if you like but its a sword.

DEADMARSH
07-07-2012, 04:44
This is why we can't have nice things.

Oppressor
07-07-2012, 06:00
so like a tervigon is a a troops choice, but you can take it as a HQ?

Precisely, they both even spawn more troops! Although with the girlfriend, once they've spawned troops they automatically become an HQ, unlike the wife that can only become so after you've married her.

DietDolphin
07-07-2012, 07:48
Precisely, they both even spawn more troops! Although with the girlfriend, once they've spawned troops they automatically become an HQ, unlike the wife that can only become so after you've married her.

All I know is when she becomes a HQ and stops being a troop choice, Shes no longer my scoring unit.

VendableFall
07-07-2012, 08:04
This is why we can't have nice things.

i lol'd, so true, everyone whines about the game being to vanilla and bland, GW introduces some variation and BOOM everything explodes!

stiggie
07-07-2012, 08:56
What's a girlfriend?

Is it a Fast Attack choice?

It's a sword. It's called a sword. It's a sword.

It's a troops choice, thinks It's an HQ, costs a lot of points but is never makes it back.

xxRavenxx
07-07-2012, 09:14
It's a troops choice, thinks It's an HQ, costs a lot of points but is never makes it back.

Its definately an ork HQ of some sort, as they hate it when you drop ordinance on their killer kans...

Aluinn
07-07-2012, 09:17
Girlfriend/boyfriend opinions aside, my opinion is this: If I was using them (and I used warscythes on Lychguard so it never would have come up for me, but whatever) I would have counted them as swords, because they're called hyperphase swords, and I think they are intended to look like teched-up Egyptian swords (khepesh?), or at least took those as aesthetic inspiration. This seems like the common sense approach and would also avoid arguments.

If I had a Necron opponent who insisted on counting them as axes, though, I wouldn't argue at all. I wouldn't really be able to see where they were coming from, in the sense that it's not something I would ever insist on myself, but I'd just accept it and play it that way because the power weapon types are intended to be balanced against one another, clearly, even if in the specific case of Lychguard axes are blatantly better. Needless to say I would not charge them with Terminators :).

I suspect there's a case to be made, if we really want to continue this discussion, that they're actually "unusual power weapons" rather than axes or swords, but without any special rules beyond having AP3 (and, thus, function exactly as swords without technically being swords), by virtue of being named something other than "power weapon". In other words, you could view "counting as a power weapon" and simply being a power weapon, literally, as different things, and the former case triggering the "unusual" clause.

But at the end of the day I think the most important thing to remember is that it really isn't worth fighting over. The buff they get from it is minor overall, really (it only becomes truly significant when they're fighting Termies), and it does mean they go from striking before power fists/thunder hammers to striking simultaneously with them.

I should say though, Necron players: The shield is massively overrated and Lychguard with warscythes are lots better, and got better still in 6th. A warscythe is so much better than a power axe it isn't even funny, and the 4++ is just not necessary for them provided you attach a Lord with res orb--it's hard to knock a unit of them out in a single phase unless you make it too small to be worth taking in the first place, and if that doesn't happen their naturally crazy toughness and Reanimation will be plenty of protection, considering they kill more than the shield variety. Well, even if you don't have an orb, I still think the edge goes to scythes as they are, let's not forget, 5 points per model cheaper as well.

EDIT: I guess I should give more rationale for the above opinion: You probably want power axes to fight Terminators. If you take power axes and are fighting Terminators, all the Terminators get to swing at you. If you take warscythes, however, you swing first and ignore their armor, probably kill a couple, and take less damage anyway by virtue of that. Beyond that, warscythes easily wreck any vehicle in a single turn of combat, and are now even better at it with AP1; I know Necrons don't need this in 6th, really, but it's another minor point in their favor as more killing power is never a bad thing. Finally, again, they are slightly cheaper, the shield's shooting reflection is a gimmick that rarely does anything at all, and they're plenty tough without an invuln save if you just attach a regular Lord from the Court (who costs very close to the same number of points as a Lychguard and has the same stats, so just consider this as subbing a Lychguard out for him and thus not adding any significant cost to the unit) and give him an orb (or you could attach your Overlord; whatevs).

ihavetoomuchminis
07-07-2012, 09:56
Its definately an ork HQ of some sort, as they hate it when you drop ordinance on their killer kans...

I'm not sure to have understood what you're saying.... ;)

On topic: Is it so hard? Hyperphase SWORD.......is not a banana. Is a sword. A Power Weapon. AP3.

It is RAW...wich means Read As Written. What some people is doing here is the other RAW.....Read AS WANTED.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 09:59
I'm not sure to have understood what you're saying.... ;)

On topic: Is it so hard? Hyperphase SWORD.......is not a banana. Is a sword. A Power Weapon. AP3.

It is RAW...wich means Read As Written. What some people is doing here is the other RAW.....Read AS WANTED.

Not that I'm agreeing with the other side, but the entire premise of their argument is that the *name* is not the *rule*. If GW had wanted to lock down this argument, they could have classified the hyperphase sword as a power sword in the FAQ - instead, they classed it as a power weapon, hence the whole argument.

Killgore
07-07-2012, 10:41
The clue is in the name. Tbh I don't think gw expected the desperation of necron players to get a free upgrade

Minsc
07-07-2012, 11:07
Their powerweapons look like axes.

Funny you should say that - I think they look like swords.

Opinions aside, I'm stunned that so many Necronplayers are looking for ways to make their army even better. What, being the best army in 6th (so far) isn't good enough? You want more?

prowla
07-07-2012, 11:17
What's the deal here? You want a free upgrade just because the weapon looks a little bit weird? What ever happened to "play fair", sheesh.. :wtf:

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 11:24
Honestly? I couldnt care less - all my models were put together as Praetorians, and when I get more, they'll be having Warscythes, because, well, they're the iconic Necron CC weapon as far as I'm concerned, and my particular meta when it comes to 40k is about as far from competitive gaming as it gets.

On the other hand, I also have no issue with people wanting their Lychguard to have different weapons - according to the rules, there's no points difference between the various types, and therefore (in theory) GW has decreed them all equal, so if someone wants to say they're axes (and in terms of looks, there ARE several significant differences between them and the pictures of Khopeshes that people keep posting) then more power to them.
I mean, lets be honest - would we be having this arguement if people wanted the convert them into power mauls or lances?

paspinall
07-07-2012, 11:28
I dont even consider it to be particularly an upgrade anyway, to the point I am still debating which i want to model many of my army with, them being marines and having either option for now at least.

though i suppose for lower I necrons maybe its more so .

Killgore
07-07-2012, 11:34
It is significant from a gaming point of view as in the hands of a necron with int 2 the axe is the better weapon by a country mile. The designers clearly designed that unit option with the intention of it being a sword.

Warsythes for offence, shield and sword for defence

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 11:51
It is significant from a gaming point of view as in the hands of a necron with int 2 the axe is the better weapon by a country mile. The designers clearly designed that unit option with the intention of it being a sword.

Warsythes for offence, shield and sword for defence

Then they should have specified, using *rules* as opposed to just the name, followed by a classification of power weapon which was always, obviously going to lead to this discussion/argument/slapfest of a problem

self biased
07-07-2012, 12:33
i lol'd, so true, everyone whines about the game being to vanilla and bland, GW introduces some variation and BOOM everything explodes!

so much as i can tell the problem is not with the variety, but with the way it was implemented. Gamers are a notoriously self-centered lot (as a generalization) and tend towards the most efficiency when it comes to certain things. if power axes are clearly better than swords, then there should logically be a cost increase to mitigate that.


It is significant from a gaming point of view as in the hands of a necron with int 2 the axe is the better weapon by a country mile. The designers clearly designed that unit option with the intention of it being a sword.

Warsythes for offence, shield and sword for defence

somewhere back in fourth edition i came to the realization that the development studio were not, in fact, professional game designers. If anyone remembers the whole 'lash of submission' debacle, i believe that Allessio Cavatore was quoted as saying something to the effect that he never imagined people would take two lash princes. this is just another one of those amateurish oversights, no more. so whether or not things were designed with one intention or another is largely irrelevant.


Then they should have specified, using *rules* as opposed to just the name, followed by a classification of power weapon which was always, obviously going to lead to this discussion/argument/slapfest of a problem

sensible keywords and defined game terms? in my warhammer 40k? the greater issue i have with this is the 'modelling for advantage' aspect. remember all of the arguments that came with the introduction of the so-called 'true line of sight' rules about the one dude kneeling in the squad and not being able to see over a hedge? god, i miss those days.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 12:47
sensible keywords and defined game terms? in my warhammer 40k? the greater issue i have with this is the 'modelling for advantage' aspect. remember all of the arguments that came with the introduction of the so-called 'true line of sight' rules about the one dude kneeling in the squad and not being able to see over a hedge? god, i miss those days.

Sensible keywords and defined game terms will never happen, just because they use words for special rules that they then use in names. For example, one of the arguemnts that can be made is that if the name defines the weapon, then just as a Hyperphase Sword is a Power Sword, will all the rules that that entails, the same argument could be used for the Eldritch Lance and the Lance rule, or the Hunting Lance and the Lance rule, or Laser Lances and the Lance rule... or for that matter, Power Lances and the Lance rule....

self biased
07-07-2012, 13:13
Sensible keywords and defined game terms will never happen.

yeah, i know. :( that's why i used a variation of the "X? in my Y?" meme.

I know the solution is to just talk things over with my opponent and come to an agreement on how something should be played, but there are people out there who have the unmitigated gall to not recognize that my interpretation of the rules is infallible.

Commissar Davis
07-07-2012, 13:34
Just model them more as axes and have it over with, which seems to be the point of the power weapon rules in the BRB. I have a dude with a massive sword (looks like it would need 2 hands to swing) that was 'counts as' power fist in the last edition, no one complained.

Just get on with having fun. As long as both sides are agreed before the game, what in the warp is the problem.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 14:09
Just model them more as axes and have it over with, which seems to be the point of the power weapon rules in the BRB. I have a dude with a massive sword (looks like it would need 2 hands to swing) that was 'counts as' power fist in the last edition, no one complained.

Just get on with having fun. As long as both sides are agreed before the game, what in the warp is the problem.

I would assume that the issue, as is usually the case with rules discussions that drag on for multiple pages, is going to be with events, tournaments and other places where you aren't playing against people you know and are friends with, and have a "vested interest" in the rule not going in your favour.
Also, I like the sword models for the Lychguard, and to be honest, see no reason why I couldnt just say "They're count-as axes" on the rare occasion I ever might field them, since despite what other people have said, they're really not just a khopesh in space... :p

ihavetoomuchminis
07-07-2012, 14:57
So......i can model the Power weapons of my CSM terminators as axes, and have AP2 and +1S without paying extra points? Great to know.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 15:38
I am a necron player and I deeply disappointed with some of my fellow Necron players.

I think that the the Hyper Phase Swords are Swords. If you argue otherwise i think you are just acting like a douche. Not to mention childish.

And this is what keeps the argument going - attacks with no evidence to back them up. I mean, I'm pretty much just playing devil's advocate here, but there IS a case for the pro-axe side of the discussion under the rules (however thin the case might be)...

DivineVisitor
07-07-2012, 16:32
And this is what keeps the argument going - attacks with no evidence to back them up. I mean, I'm pretty much just playing devil's advocate here, but there IS a case for the pro-axe side of the discussion under the rules (however thin the case might be)...

Dunno i think the man has a point, they are called hyperphase SWORDS after all. As far as im concerned folk are clutching at straws for an advantage here.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 16:43
Dunno i think the man has a point, they are called hyperphase SWORDS after all. As far as im concerned folk are clutching at straws for an advantage here.
Sigh...
And and has been said, in this very thread no less, names are not rules.... Does the Punisher Cannon fire salvo's of dudes in black tshirts covered in guns? Is the conversion beamer a large metal beam that converts things? Are Warscythes scythes? Are Nobz the living, breathing genital envy of the Orkoid race?

The name of a piece of wargear has nothing at all to do with its rules, otherwise the Necron Eldritch Lance would *have* the Lance rule.

I honestly couldnt care less who wins this argument, but the fact of the matter is that ignoring valid avenues of thought wont get anyone very far. Refute it, discredit it, or otherwise change people's mind, but merely rehashing the same irrelevant points is utterly fruitless

Chapters Unwritten
07-07-2012, 16:44
Wait it's WYSIWYG, I can model all my power swords to look like axes now, without having a codex entry for it and get credit for having a power axe? sweet. :shifty:This is a common idea and it's incorrect, IMO.

A model with the option to take a "Power Weapon" can take any of the three, as they are all vaguely balanced. Standard PWs hit at normal I / Str, Axes are better strength and AP but I1, and Mauls hit at more strength but less AP.

A model with a "Hyperphase Sword" =/= a model with a "Power Weapon" and I'm sure when the BADAB's FAQ comes out, it will say exactly this. As the Necron FAQ does not change it at all from its basic power weapon status it further reinforces that it is just a sword.

Would it make Lychguard a bit better? Sure. But it clearly is a case of what people want versus reality. I know the name of the item has little to do with it, but in this case it is very clear that they are meant to be treated as the most basic of power weapons. Otherwise they would have been altered (like the Rod of Covenant was).

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 16:47
This is a common idea and it's incorrect, IMO.

A model with the option to take a "Power Weapon" can take any of the three, as they are all vaguely balanced. Standard PWs hit at normal I / Str, Axes are better strength and AP but I1, and Mauls hit at more strength but less AP.

A model with a "Hyperphase Sword" =/= a model with a "Power Weapon" and I'm sure when the BADAB's FAQ comes out, it will say exactly this.

I would honestly love the FAQ to come out and rule this one way or the other, if only because then I can find a different thread to play devil's advocate in :p

MooseOnTheLoose
07-07-2012, 17:40
I don't get the fuss from the either end, it looks like an axe so it can be used as an axe.

All powerweapons are WSYIWYG now.

Lychguard have powerweapons.

Their powerweapons look like axes.

Lychguard can have poweraxes.


The whole "swords" thing in their name is irrelevant; otherwise my crypteks with eldritch lances should be getting the lance rule. Finally, can we please put to rest the whole it looks like a khopesh thing, it doesn't have a curve nor a rod at the back on the model. If anything there should be no confusion that it is an axe.

But for starters it isn't called a "power" weapon. It is called a "hyperphase" sword that only "functions" like a power weapon.

So not being a "power weapon" it is not wysiwyg. It is a "hyperphase" weapon in particular a "sword".

They look like a sword with a guass power supply, and only function as power weapon, they are not actually a power weapon, or they would be called such or said too be power weapons in all regards like they state in the rules or other codex.

Your last little blurb kinda kills your whole point names are completely relevant, and you use an example which doesn't make sense either, as despite trying to draw a parallel it is simple a name with in this case no relevance to look. I'm not sure what model your looking at because each and every blade in that kit has a ( looking blade and its a rod that emits a power source to the blade... Their should be no confusion that it a sword. Name, wysiwyg, rules, necron weaponry. Sword 4 - Axe 0.

Voss
07-07-2012, 17:48
So......i can model the Power weapons of my CSM terminators as axes, and have AP2 and +1S without paying extra points? Great to know.

The chaos terminator box comes with a mix of axes and mauls by default, so yes, you can. They really are WYSIWYG, and it is also entirely clear what each model is wielding.

The real problem with the 'Hyperphase Swords are Axes' argument is it blurs lines and leads to modeling for advantage, with people building 'sword-axes' that mysteriously change properties between games depending on what they face, or even worse, change during the game depending on the needs of the player.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 17:58
See, I said this'd go on for ever :P

Creaky
07-07-2012, 18:26
Just thought I'd log in to say that the digital Necron codex (which is updated to 6th edition) uses the specific rules for the power SWORD in the entry for the Hyperphase Sword.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 18:29
Just thought I'd log in to say that the digital Necron codex (which is updated to 6th edition) uses the specific rules for the power SWORD in the entry for the Hyperphase Sword.

Oh, thank god for that! Now everyone can relax, because everyone has access to an iPad...... oh wait...

Clarkson
07-07-2012, 18:50
If i face an opponent that brings this stupid argument up in a battle.. ill annoy them and say they now have the maul rules and watch them get annoyed.

if they want to use it as a sword or an axe let them...tbh idgaff as long as i get to have a game that wont last 9hours because of the arguing

baphomael
07-07-2012, 19:03
Well you'd never get away with calling her a Heavy Support choice...

Fast attack choice.... that's what she said ;)

Nubl0
07-07-2012, 19:03
After talking it over with people down my club, we decided it's pretty clear that they can be used as axes. The codex list's them as "power weapons" which by the brb you determine what they are on how they are modeled. So if one of our necron players mods them to be suitably "axe like" then he can use them as axes, not swords. It's strange but theres nothing really wrong with it. If gw intended it any other way they would have listed it in the faq as a power sword or it's own statistics like the warscythe.


Not like it makes them that much greater anyway, would still rather have wraiths as my assault unit.

Scribe of Khorne
07-07-2012, 19:31
This is why we can't have nice things.

This exactly.

Its called a sword, should it not be a sword?



if they want to use it as a sword or an axe let them...tbh idgaff as long as i get to have a game that wont last 9hours because of the arguing

And this.

kaimarion
07-07-2012, 19:59
Just found these really smart looking axes what do you guys think :

Axe 1 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=sword&num=10&um=1&hl=en&biw=1241&bih=606&tbm=isch&tbnid=18vtxHY9tbT4hM:&imgrefurl=http://claymoresword.org/fantasy-swords-guide/&docid=nLPC_XRTsP6b4M&imgurl=http://claymoresword.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fantasy-swords.jpg&w=400&h=400&ei=H4b4T82vFtKb1AXWtvC4Bw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=259&vpy=239&dur=1557&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=169&ty=127&sig=108271908243094814022&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=115&tbnw=115&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0,i:189)
Axe 2 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=swords&start=82&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1241&bih=606&tbm=isch&tbnid=th1pilDAZkPoFM:&imgrefurl=http://www.medieval-swords.com/lion-crest-sword.html&docid=taGHPJY9PFyZ_M&imgurl=http://www.medieval-swords.com/images/2001-lion-crest-sword.png&w=450&h=529&ei=6Ib4T9nFNuSh0QXY98y4Bw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=464&vpy=81&dur=656&hovh=243&hovw=207&tx=111&ty=103&sig=108271908243094814022&page=4&tbnh=135&tbnw=115&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:82,i:59)


To see through the eyes of others...

Lord Damocles
07-07-2012, 20:00
The second link is totally a lance.

Duh.
:p

xxRavenxx
07-07-2012, 20:05
Just found these really smart looking axes what do you guys think :

Axe 1 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=sword&num=10&um=1&hl=en&biw=1241&bih=606&tbm=isch&tbnid=18vtxHY9tbT4hM:&imgrefurl=http://claymoresword.org/fantasy-swords-guide/&docid=nLPC_XRTsP6b4M&imgurl=http://claymoresword.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fantasy-swords.jpg&w=400&h=400&ei=H4b4T82vFtKb1AXWtvC4Bw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=259&vpy=239&dur=1557&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=169&ty=127&sig=108271908243094814022&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=115&tbnw=115&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0,i:189)
Axe 2 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=swords&start=82&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1241&bih=606&tbm=isch&tbnid=th1pilDAZkPoFM:&imgrefurl=http://www.medieval-swords.com/lion-crest-sword.html&docid=taGHPJY9PFyZ_M&imgurl=http://www.medieval-swords.com/images/2001-lion-crest-sword.png&w=450&h=529&ei=6Ib4T9nFNuSh0QXY98y4Bw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=464&vpy=81&dur=656&hovh=243&hovw=207&tx=111&ty=103&sig=108271908243094814022&page=4&tbnh=135&tbnw=115&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:82,i:59)


To see through the eyes of others...

They look like maces with really pointy handles to me...

BCaswell
07-07-2012, 20:21
I dont think they will FAQ it I am in sword camp not saying axe guys are wrong but if I was at GW I would say "I really have too define a weapon as a sword when its in the title????"..Think I might remodle mine with Lascannons lol.

Chem-Dog
07-07-2012, 20:21
Excuse my Ignorance, but what does a Hyperphase Sword do? Was it, up until last Saturday, just a "Power Weapon"?

Lord Damocles
07-07-2012, 20:23
Excuse my Ignorance, but what does a Hyperphase Sword do? Was it, up until last Saturday, just a "Power Weapon"?
Yep. It's just a Power weapon.

So if people want Hyperphase Axes, all they have to do is convert the model very slightly.

The bearded one
07-07-2012, 20:37
Just found these really smart looking axes what do you guys think :

Axe 1 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=sword&num=10&um=1&hl=en&biw=1241&bih=606&tbm=isch&tbnid=18vtxHY9tbT4hM:&imgrefurl=http://claymoresword.org/fantasy-swords-guide/&docid=nLPC_XRTsP6b4M&imgurl=http://claymoresword.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fantasy-swords.jpg&w=400&h=400&ei=H4b4T82vFtKb1AXWtvC4Bw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=259&vpy=239&dur=1557&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=169&ty=127&sig=108271908243094814022&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=115&tbnw=115&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0,i:189)
Axe 2 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=swords&start=82&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1241&bih=606&tbm=isch&tbnid=th1pilDAZkPoFM:&imgrefurl=http://www.medieval-swords.com/lion-crest-sword.html&docid=taGHPJY9PFyZ_M&imgurl=http://www.medieval-swords.com/images/2001-lion-crest-sword.png&w=450&h=529&ei=6Ib4T9nFNuSh0QXY98y4Bw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=464&vpy=81&dur=656&hovh=243&hovw=207&tx=111&ty=103&sig=108271908243094814022&page=4&tbnh=135&tbnw=115&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:82,i:59)


To see through the eyes of others...

The second link is totally a lance.

Duh.
:p

They look like maces with really pointy handles to me...

Please, they're definately chainswords, they have multiple pointy parts!

.. but wait, that means they might also be chainaxes!



.. the circle starts anew.. :shifty:

Spiney Norman
07-07-2012, 20:37
Yep. It's just a Power weapon.

So if people want Hyperphase Axes, all they have to do is convert the model very slightly.

Absolutely, cutting off the lower half of the blade ought to be sufficient, or better still cut along the two diagonal lines etched on the blade for a very axy shape, actually that would look far cooler anyway.

It seems rather smug and ungrateful of folks at large to allow every other unit/character that carries power weapons to receive a free upgrade via modelling as an axe and in the same breath deny it to Lychguard. The Necron codex is very clear, hyper phase sword=power WEAPON, the Necron codex FAQ does nothing to change this. You people do realise that you can do this with ANY model that has an option for a power weapon, right?

Nubl0
07-07-2012, 20:53
Seriously guys? It's rather pathetic that people are actually arguing that Lychguard can't have them as axes, yet every other unit in the game that can take "power weapons" can do as they please? It doesn't even make them THAT much better. They are still more expensive than most terminators without the advantage of a 2+ sv and ranged weapons. I think this is more to do with people now just hating on the crons in general because of the boost they received. Against assault termies (the marine counterpart) They will still probably lose, as with axes they strike at the same time and have a worse invuln save.

If everyone is getting so hung up on it being called a sword even though it is labeled a power weapon I just hope gw faqs it sooner. I couldnt care less if it ends up being a sword or actually like any other power weapon choice. Just want people to stop saying that cron players who use them as axes (which the rules allow) are jerks.

The bearded one
07-07-2012, 21:05
I'm just gonna pull back this quote before it gets lost over the endless pages. Sometimes warseer threads are even more of an insurmountable mass of pages than the messiest of Imperial bureaucracies.



Just thought I'd log in to say that the digital Necron codex (which is updated to 6th edition) uses the specific rules for the power SWORD in the entry for the Hyperphase Sword.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 21:15
I'm just gonna pull back this quote before it gets lost over the endless pages. Sometimes warseer threads are even more of an insurmountable mass of pages than the messiest of Imperial bureaucracies.

And I'll just reiterate that this only matters to people with an iPad until the FAQ comes out, so things are still going to be argued over :p

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 21:16
I'm just gonna pull back this quote before it gets lost over the endless pages. Sometimes warseer threads are even more of an insurmountable mass of pages than the messiest of Imperial bureaucracies.

And I'll just reiterate that this only matters when it involves people who have an iPad, so its still going to be argued about :p

The bearded one
07-07-2012, 21:16
And I'll just reiterate that this only matters to people with an iPad until the FAW comes out, so things are still going to be argued over :p

So if I'm a 40K'ing hermit who has no computer or internet, FAQs and errata's don't aply to me either? While it is not set in stone as a word-of-god ruling yet, it definately sets a reliable precedence which might be carried over into a future FAQ, so.. prepare.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 21:17
So if I'm a 40K'ing hermit who has no computer or internet, FAQs and errata's don't aply to me either?

Not at all, but does the FAQ actually have it in at the moment? ;)
Because as much as people dont like to admit it, the digital copy is only available to a small minority of people, so arguments are still going to happen whetheryou like it or not

The bearded one
07-07-2012, 21:22
Not at all, but does the FAQ actually have it in at the moment? ;)
Because as much as people dont like to admit it, the digital copy is only available to a small minority of people, so arguments are still going to happen whetheryou like it or not

I actually editted my post a few seconds after placing it to add something, so.. beware ;) I was referring to FAQs and errata's in general though, not on this specific issue. If white dwarf and the internet were a limited medium, I still shouldn't be entitled to ignore the fantasy errata changing the rules of the powerscroll, for example. The ruling for the hyperphase sword isn't set in stone yet, but GW making this alteration on one of its mediums definately sets a precedent that is fairly likely to be added to a future FAQ.

Shadowfane
07-07-2012, 21:26
I actually editted my post a few seconds after placing it to add something, so.. beware ;) I was referring to FAQs and errata's in general though, not on this specific issue. If white dwarf and the internet were a limited medium, I still shouldn't be entitled to ignore the fantasy errata changing the rules of the powerscroll, for example. The ruling for the hyperphase sword isn't set in stone yet, but GW making this alteration on one of its mediums definately sets a precedent that is fairly likely to be added to a future FAQ.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no issue with whichever way it works, since I have no hyperphase swords in my army, and my group is about as far from tournament and rules lawyers as it gets. I just enjoy playing devils advocate occasionally :p

Draconis
07-07-2012, 21:32
Is there a pic of the hyperphase sword? Most likely it's designed after Khopesh which looks like http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9497 even though the khopesh originally started out as an axe, it later became a sword.

Yeah, just to add to this, I finally saw a pic, if you were to take off the back "rod" piece, you almost have a certain khopesh looking weapon, which is a sword. But after reading above, if the codex/fax/whatever says power weapon, you use it however you feel it is deemed.

Spiney Norman
07-07-2012, 21:33
I'm just gonna pull back this quote before it gets lost over the endless pages. Sometimes warseer threads are even more of an insurmountable mass of pages than the messiest of Imperial bureaucracies.

Regrettably I'm not in a position to confirm or deny the contents of a document that I don't have any way of accessing, all I have is the the paper codex I purchased and the official FAQ on the GW website, and they contradict these reports.

shadekiller
07-07-2012, 21:42
stop trolling they even took the time to add it in their digital codex. Its like ignoring new laws untils they are up on every possible medium the governement has access to. Its a sword, like it or not, end of story

Lord Damocles
07-07-2012, 21:46
stop trolling
So questioning something you've not seen, and have only the word of an anonymous internet person to go by is trolling?


:eyebrows:

Creaky
07-07-2012, 21:56
So questioning something you've not seen, and have only the word of an anonymous internet person to go by is trolling?


:eyebrows:


I quite agree, so I screenshotted it. If it's forbidden, then I'm sure the mods can sort that out.

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo128/creakyskin/6e7ca9de.jpg


I also agree that they need to clarify their FAQ. Perhaps they (mistakenly) believe that it's perfectly clear?

If not for this, I'd also be in the camp of it being whatever it's modelled as, based on the technicalities of the rules. A Hyperphase Axe is not a silly idea. Hopefully they'll get their arses in gear soon.

shadekiller
07-07-2012, 22:17
I could use the same argument, whatever we all say may or maybe not true! I could say that I have a digital copy, that my friend has one and argue with you until someone post a picture of it but I decided to use my google FU and I found

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/460331.page

2 people on 2 different forums is enough for me to end this silly debate.
I do agree that was harsh for nothing so, I apologise.

Dragonclaw
07-07-2012, 22:32
It would have been easier if gw just left them as no armour saves. Then we wouldn't be arguing about it.

hobojebus
07-07-2012, 22:35
Someone else seeing a digital copy is like someone seeing god, sure its proof to them but the rest of us didnt see it and only have their word it happened at all.

If they have updated the digital copy it is inexcusable that they didnt do the FAQ at the same time it takes seconds to edit a text document.

I'd not use them as axes myself but i cant dismiss the claims of people saying a converted weapon could be a power axe.

paspinall
07-07-2012, 22:36
As they clearly had it for the updated codex why on earth isnt it in the FAQ

Kalandros
07-07-2012, 22:49
I just bought a box of Lychguard/Praetorians - I looked at the bits in real life - I'm looking at them right now, it is an Axe, it isn't even similar to a "Kopesh" or whatever its called - that thing is an AXE

But its called a Sword - so you play it as a Sword until cleared up in a FAQ or if you can agree with your opponent that they are Axes - fine.
But for tournaments, you will have to duke it out with the organisers - convince them that they're Axes

There's nothing more to debate on this - the bits are Axes.

Kalandros
07-07-2012, 22:50
I just bought a box of Lychguard/Praetorians - I looked at the bits in real life - I'm looking at them right now, it is an Axe, it isn't even similar to a "Kopesh" or whatever its called - that thing is an AXE

But its called a Sword - so you play it as a Sword until cleared up in a FAQ or if you can agree with your opponent that they are Axes - fine.
But for tournaments, you will have to duke it out with the organisers - convince them that they're Axes

There's nothing more to debate on this - the bits are Axes.

zippy77
07-07-2012, 22:59
I always suspected it was swords, im buying the digi codex right now (to see how they look and to read the necron fluff) so I will confirm / deny and would I be allowed to post a picture or does that violate the rules of the forum?

Draconis
07-07-2012, 23:05
I just bought a box of Lychguard/Praetorians - I looked at the bits in real life - I'm looking at them right now, it is an Axe, it isn't even similar to a "Kopesh" or whatever its called - that thing is an AXE

But its called a Sword - so you play it as a Sword until cleared up in a FAQ or if you can agree with your opponent that they are Axes - fine.
But for tournaments, you will have to duke it out with the organisers - convince them that they're Axes

There's nothing more to debate on this - the bits are Axes.

Aaaand you failed. If you read the other thread, it's AP 3 in the new updated codex.

peterjameslewis711
07-07-2012, 23:06
Im on the sword side, i mean the name says sword and seeing as the necron army now has a very egyptian vibe to it im sure its based on the swords of the egyptians, but i dont get why people have this issue, at the start of a game say to ur opponent "Oh u know these guys are carrying axes/swords yea?" surely thats enough for most (or is it just me....).

Kalandros
07-07-2012, 23:07
How was I to know the Digital Codex had it updated and how was I supposed to have already read the other threads? o; Come off your high horse and stop being an ass.
Its fine if they ruled it already but not everyone has access to the digital copy so an Errata is still required.

Still, they can very well be used to model Axes on anything else that only has "Power Weapon" rule without "Sword" in its name, because the bits are Axes.

I've always been on the sword side because of the weapon's name, but could very well understand the other side as well.

Draconis
07-07-2012, 23:14
144734144735144736144737144738



144739144740144741144742144743


I wonder which set of images is closer to the weapon in argument.. I wonder which one was closely related to the Egyptians. I wonder what race Necrons were based on in this edition.



How was I to know the Digital Codex had it updated and how was I supposed to have already read the other threads? o; Come off your high horse and stop being an ass.
Its fine if they ruled it already but not everyone has access to the digital copy so an Errata is still required.

Still, they can very well be used to model Axes on anything else that only has "Power Weapon" rule without "Sword" in its name, because the bits are Axes.

I've always been on the sword side because of the weapon's name, but could very well understand the other side as well.

The one guy linked it in all nice and blue just for you to read just a few posts before yours. took me 10 seconds to find out where the guy who bought the digital copy said it had ap3. Now you get off your high horse. I dont ride em, can't stand em.

Lord Damocles
07-07-2012, 23:15
I just bought a box of Lychguard/Praetorians - I looked at the bits in real life - I'm looking at them right now, it is an Axe, it isn't even similar to a "Kopesh" or whatever its called - that thing is an AXE
I think the main [visual] problem with the Hyperphase Sword is the bit running along at the back of the blade.

This looks like a weapon barrel [linear accelerator chamber] matching the form of those on the Ghost Arc; but the painted examples in the Codex seem to suggest that it's some sort of power core (the green bleeds into the groves in the blade). This isn't so strange, as we've had plenty of examples of green rod parts which aren't barrels on weapons previosuly (Staves of Light, the Monolith etc.), and the warsythes carried by the new batch of Lords have similar.

If you ignore this 'power element', then the Hyperphase sword is similar in form to a khopesh.


Quite why the Necron models feature such a mish-mash of power elements (green rods (enclosed and open), globes/spheres and crystals) even varying them between different versions of the same weapon, is another question entirely...

Kalandros
07-07-2012, 23:20
144744

Don't give me real life comparison for a Sci-Fi/Fantasy game.
Give me the nerdiest comparisons.
WoW's a good one.

Spiney Norman
07-07-2012, 23:33
I could use the same argument, whatever we all say may or maybe not true! I could say that I have a digital copy, that my friend has one and argue with you until someone post a picture of it but I decided to use my google FU and I found

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/460331.page

2 people on 2 different forums is enough for me to end this silly debate.
I do agree that was harsh for nothing so, I apologise.

Meh, it's more a question of 10 models which I paid good money for, and then spent hours painting have been rendered virtually useless by a change in rules that every other model in the game seems to be able to ignore (by modelling their weapon as an axe), but no doubt I will find a way to get over it and just sub the shield-guard out of my list. They did the same to the Incubi in my dark Eldar list, I just had some vague hope that the wording might have left Lychguard salvageable, but with the damned icodex it appears not.

It's particularly galling that the Warscythe is now probably the most overpowered cc weapon in the entire game, and had I known they were going to nerf power swords this much 6 months ago I would definitely have built my models with those instead.

Draconis
07-07-2012, 23:33
And how long is that handle? How long is the handle on the hyperphase sword? How big is that weapon compared to a tauren? how big is the hyperphase sword to a necron? Big differences. You can't compare just the looks of the weapon without putting it in context.



Meh, it's more a question of 10 models which I paid good money for, and then spent hours painting have been rendered virtually useless by a change in rules that every other model in the game seems to be able to ignore (by modelling their weapon as an axe), but no doubt I will find a way to get over it and just sub the shield-guard out of my list.

And thats how us Nid players feel :) Course I play Crons too so double whammy. One day I'll learn my lesson and stick with an imperial army..

zippy77
07-07-2012, 23:39
A sword remains just a sword...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/65278778@N07/

... I always read the rule as this is a sword that counts as a power weapon, meaning its still a sword and has the rules associated with a power weapon. With the updated rules, this would imply it is a power sword.

Spiney Norman
07-07-2012, 23:43
And thats how us Nid players feel :) Course I play Crons too so double whammy. One day I'll learn my lesson and stick with an imperial army..

well you'd think so, but my imperial army is sisters of battle, and 6th didn't really do very much to raise them from their ecclesiarchal coffin.

Chem-Dog
08-07-2012, 00:16
Yep. It's just a Power weapon.

Ok. So, (again excuse the ignorance) the argument is over whether a Model currently armed with said weapon can gain an advantage from the new "options" for Power Weapon armed models?

MooseOnTheLoose
08-07-2012, 00:30
How was I to know the Digital Codex had it updated and how was I supposed to have already read the other threads? o; Come off your high horse and stop being an ass.
Its fine if they ruled it already but not everyone has access to the digital copy so an Errata is still required.

Still, they can very well be used to model Axes on anything else that only has "Power Weapon" rule without "Sword" in its name, because the bits are Axes.

I've always been on the sword side because of the weapon's name, but could very well understand the other side as well.

Kettle and the pot...

The bits are very clearly swords, because they look like swords :s

Funny how that works. Either way, look, printed name of "sword" and now rules all clearly tell us they are swords. Thread should be locked up soon enough.

Egaeus
08-07-2012, 04:29
Ok. So, (again excuse the ignorance) the argument is over whether a Model currently armed with said weapon can gain an advantage from the new "options" for Power Weapon armed models?

I still haven't gotten the new rulebook yet as my LGS was out last time I went...but my understanding of the issue is that there are now multiple types of "power weapons" with differing capabilities. The rules state that if a model is just equipped with a "power weapon" then you are supposed to look at the model to determine which type it is. Some items are expressly listed as a specific type.

Since "Hyperphase Swords" are listed as simply being "power weapons" then the argument goes that you look at the mode, and that because these items look like they could be axes they could be used as axes. In this particular case axes are a much better rule for the unit in question than swords would be, so some players really want them to be axes. And since neither the rulebook nor the FAQ specify them as such (it has been mentioned that the digital Necron codex has them listed using the stats for a power sword) then it is up to the player to decide which one they want to use.

Personally I would fall on the "they're called swords and are obviously intended to be stylized swords"...if they were Hyperphase "weapons" or hyperphase "blades" or some other such generic term then I think it would be a lot easier to sell that they could be axes...add in the idea that GW knew 6th was coming when writing the Necron rules then they either (a) knew what they intended (and I do half expect a revised Necron codex to say "they're called swords, of course they're swords, sillies :p" but GW has surprised me before) or (b) really are that incompetent at writing basic rules (but we all know that already :shifty:). I suppose you could have (c) they do these things on purpose just to get people riled up...although I think this is giving them too much credit.

Lyinar
08-07-2012, 05:25
How exactly is AP3 "virtually useless"? It still tears up anything that isn't in Terminator Armour, and the Lychguard with shields (especially if they're with an Overlord with a Resurrection Orb) are still RIDICULOUSLY hard to kill by any standards.

It's still a choice between survivability and murdering things, because the Warscythes were still that much better than Hyperphase Swords back before 6th Edition. In short, I, at least, had always seen it as a choice between the Warscythes and the shields, with the Hyperphase Swords just kinda being consolation prizes.

Stonerhino
08-07-2012, 05:33
The problem is more that in the hands of a Lychguard all "Power weapons" are not equal. The balance to the AP3 power sword was a 5++ save. Which the Lychguard with hyperphase swords also have the shield with a better ++ save. The power sword's balance is not balanced at all, all down side and no up side. Making the ax a better choice rules wise. Honestly, if I didn't already believe that the hyperphase swords where going to be nerfed into power swords (The name cantaining the word sword in it and being a futuristic khopesh by look). I would have modeled mine to look like spears.

EDMM
08-07-2012, 05:43
Digital Necron Codex treats it as a Power Sword. AP3, nothing else.

Too bad. So sad. Suck it up with your underpowered Codex Necron whiners.

zippy77
08-07-2012, 05:47
Digital Necron Codex treats it as a Power Sword. AP3, nothing else.

Too bad. So sad. Suck it up with your underpowered Codex Necron whiners.

Its not even a power sword, just AP 3 ;), which means all of you who want it to be an axe can happily have it be an axe ... but it will still be AP 3 so everyone is happy!

EDMM
08-07-2012, 05:49
And no other benefits, abilities or rules.

Draconis
08-07-2012, 06:26
A sword remains just a sword...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/65278778@N07/

... I always read the rule as this is a sword that counts as a power weapon, meaning its still a sword and has the rules associated with a power weapon. With the updated rules, this would imply it is a power sword.


Dude! Those possessed marines are amazing! Would you mind if I stole that idea for my own?

Voss
08-07-2012, 06:28
A sword remains just a sword...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/65278778@N07/

... I always read the rule as this is a sword that counts as a power weapon, meaning its still a sword and has the rules associated with a power weapon. With the updated rules, this would imply it is a power sword.

Hurrah, settled.
Let us never speak of this again.

Dragonclaw
08-07-2012, 06:48
How exactly is AP3 "virtually useless"? It still tears up anything that isn't in Terminator Armour, and the Lychguard with shields (especially if they're with an Overlord with a Resurrection Orb) are still RIDICULOUSLY hard to kill by any standards.

Exactly I played a game the other day against space marines and my liche tore apart a squad of tactical marines and Jump infrantry in 2 turns!

Spiney Norman
08-07-2012, 08:14
How exactly is AP3 "virtually useless"? It still tears up anything that isn't in Terminator Armour, and the Lychguard with shields (especially if they're with an Overlord with a Resurrection Orb) are still RIDICULOUSLY hard to kill by any standards.

It's still a choice between survivability and murdering things, because the Warscythes were still that much better than Hyperphase Swords back before 6th Edition. In short, I, at least, had always seen it as a choice between the Warscythes and the shields, with the Hyperphase Swords just kinda being consolation prizes.

Because the Necron codex is literally bursting with units that can take out power armour, destroyers have AP3 guns, 3+ saves have never been a problem, what the heck is GWs obsession with making terminators near immortal in this edition?

Shieldguard were one of the best anti-terminator units we had, I don't need another unit that can pulverise power armoured foes, I have plenty of those already. Time to go buy some wraiths.

xxRavenxx
08-07-2012, 08:40
Because the Necron codex is literally bursting with units that can take out power armour, destroyers have AP3 guns, 3+ saves have never been a problem, what the heck is GWs obsession with making terminators near immortal in this edition?

I'd hardly say that.

And I think the change comes from the prevelance of AP2 shooting available. Plasma and Melta special weapons, the top end of battle cannons. These things dismantle termies before they get an assault. Giving them the ability to make at least one set of attacks in combat before they get fisted too seems a reasonable buff for them.

Stormshields wreck the maths of cause...

Archibald_TK
08-07-2012, 08:45
I am happy that people will stop calling a Sword an Axe.


How exactly is AP3 "virtually useless"? It still tears up anything that isn't in Terminator Armour, and the Lychguard with shields (especially if they're with an Overlord with a Resurrection Orb) are still RIDICULOUSLY hard to kill by any standards.
Because they come on 45 points models with I2, costing more than a Terminator or costing the same as 3 DCA. In my gaming group we always do all comer lists (and we love that). We come with a single list that we keep the whole day against any opponent. I regularly face Deathwing or other Terminators in the mix, thus Lychguards will never see the light of day in my armies. Their I2 is only good when facing unwieldy weapons, said weapons usually coming on models that totally ignore their AP3. Basically the Hyperphase Sword has very poor synergies with the model carrying it, and I find the performances of Lychguards to be far below what their price tag would imply.

Personally, if want resiliency, being a menace to vehicles and a large threat range I'll go with Wraiths, if I want mass AP3 I'll go with an allied Coteaz and DCA.

Abaraxas
08-07-2012, 11:15
What's a girlfriend?

Is it a Fast Attack choice?

It's a sword. It's called a sword. It's a sword.
oh my goodness that's a good call hahah

Lord Damocles
08-07-2012, 11:20
Hurrah, settled.
Let us never speak of this again.
There is of course now a new problem*

Until an FAQ changes the Hyperphase Sword from a Power Weapon to being AP3 all the time, have fun convincing an opponant using the paper Codex that you can't have Hyperphase Axes if neither of you have an electronic Codex.


*New for Lychguard, anyway. 3.5 Obliterators had it long ago...

terradax
08-07-2012, 11:26
I'd say "It's what you want it to be". My Space Marine sergeants can have Power weapons. In 5th ed I made some with axes, and some with swords, because they looked cool. Now I'm going to build a Sanguinary Guard unit with Power Lances, just for fun.

trigger
08-07-2012, 11:44
"""Meh, it's more a question of 10 models which I paid good money for, and then spent hours painting have been rendered virtually useless by a change in rules that every other model in the game seems to be able to ignore (by modelling their weapon as an axe)."""

I don't get this argument
People can't just pick and choose , example , HB for eldar have power swords as much as people want to have thunder maul axes on them , they have swords.
Hyperphase Swords are swords the warsythe is your axe variant for those models.
Sorry this isn't a go at you personally

It's just getting daft, sure GW could have been a bit smarter ..... But then again they could expect us to be able to use our comon sense the same as they expect us to be able to wipe our own asses.

Texhnolyze
08-07-2012, 11:50
There is of course now a new problem*

Until an FAQ changes the Hyperphase Sword from a Power Weapon to being AP3 all the time, have fun convincing an opponant using the paper Codex that you can't have Hyperphase Axes if neither of you have an electronic Codex.


*New for Lychguard, anyway. 3.5 Obliterators had it long ago...

Just print the screenshot and bring it with all your other FAQ papers :D

Kalandros
08-07-2012, 13:02
Use Lychguards as Lords I guess. Count the shield as Sempiternal Weave, modify the Swordax to be a Warscythe. (for those who have them glued with shields already)

O:

Spiney Norman
08-07-2012, 13:17
I don't get this argument
People can't just pick and choose , example , HB for eldar have power swords as much as people want to have thunder maul axes on them , they have swords.
Hyperphase Swords are swords the warsythe is your axe variant for those models.
Sorry this isn't a go at you personally

It's just getting daft, sure GW could have been a bit smarter ..... But then again they could expect us to be able to use our comon sense the same as they expect us to be able to wipe our own asses.

Actually that isn't true, banshees have power weapons, not power swords, there is nothing to stop you cutting the swords off your banshee models and replacing them with axes if that is what you really want to do, besides the fact that there actually is an official GW model out there of a banshee with an axe (was posted recently by another user, possibly on this very thread).

On reflection giving banshees an unwieldy weapon would be a much more substantial downside than for an I2 Lychguard, so you probably wouldn't want to do that in all seriousness (but it still doesn't change the fact that you can do it), especially as star cannons and fire dragons already give Eldar armies plenty of ways to negate 2+ armour.

The crux of the issue is that GW have written a stupid set of rules for power weapons that actively encourages modelling for advantage.



Use Lychguards as Lords I guess. Count the shield as Sempiternal Weave, modify the Swordax to be a Warscythe. (for those who have them glued with shields already)

O:

I have considered a scythe court, but 60pts for a terminator with a Warscythe and no inv save is a little steep IMHO. I still think scythe guard can be useful though, they will go before any unwieldy weapons and have the strength and AP to kill mostly whatever looks at them, if you get a model with Mind shackle scarabs in the unit, and maybe a Chrono-tek as well for rerolls, also being T5 is reasonable protection in itself, you can safely ignore most S3 stuff and s4 still struggles.

ihavetoomuchminis
08-07-2012, 15:29
I'd hardly say that.

And I think the change comes from the prevelance of AP2 shooting available. Plasma and Melta special weapons, the top end of battle cannons. These things dismantle termies before they get an assault. Giving them the ability to make at least one set of attacks in combat before they get fisted too seems a reasonable buff for them.

Stormshields wreck the maths of cause...

Stormshields....and land raiders.

zippy77
08-07-2012, 16:05
Dude! Those possessed marines are amazing! Would you mind if I stole that idea for my own?

Thanks! I dont mind if you steal the idea at all, you can find them here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?344877-Whispers-from-the-warp

...

As for the discussion on why any unit X from army Y costs more/less than unit Z from army A ... well there is not supposed to be a balance on a unit per unit basis. If there was, the game would be extremely boring as everyone would have the same army.

RanaldLoec
08-07-2012, 16:43
Guardsmen " why is that Terminator arguing with that Necron".

2nd Guardsmen " Some thing about a sword axe!".

Guardsmen " A what ..... its either a sword or an axe it ain't both".

2nd Guardsmen " I'm bored I'm going to shoot em with that executioner plasma cannon".

Guardsmen " ohhhh that's risky".

2nd Guardsmen " Nah the side ones blow up but the big massively powerful one doesn't".

Guardsmen "Sweeeeeeet".

Reinholt
08-07-2012, 17:09
Hyperphase Sword

S as user, AP3

The Horror of Uncertainty - once per game, any model with a hyperphase sword may elect to begin a debate with a model from the opponent's army as to whether the weapon is an axe or a sword. This counts as a normal shooting attack (assault 1, 12" range) if the model is not engaged in combat, or a normal melee attack if it is in base to base contact with any enemy model, which wounds automatically and against which no saves of any kind may be taken. If a wound from The Horror of Uncertainty is allocated to a model, remove both that model and the model which used The Horror of Uncertainty from the game, as a debate has begun to which there is no answer and will continue for all time. If a model has the mark of Tzeentch or is a daemon of Tzeentch, it instead enters reserves and automatically returns to the game via Deep Strike on that player's next turn, as the paradoxical nature of the weapon is harmless to creatures for whom eternal contradictions are part and parcel of existence.

self biased
08-07-2012, 18:02
144815
Hyperphase Sword

S as user, AP3

The Horror of Uncertainty - once per game, any model with a hyperphase sword may elect to begin a debate with a model from the opponent's army as to whether the weapon is an axe or a sword. This counts as a normal shooting attack (assault 1, 12" range) if the model is not engaged in combat, or a normal melee attack if it is in base to base contact with any enemy model, which wounds automatically and against which no saves of any kind may be taken. If a wound from The Horror of Uncertainty is allocated to a model, remove both that model and the model which used The Horror of Uncertainty from the game, as a debate has begun to which there is no answer and will continue for all time. If a model has the mark of Tzeentch or is a daemon of Tzeentch, it instead enters reserves and automatically returns to the game via Deep Strike on that player's next turn, as the paradoxical nature of the weapon is harmless to creatures for whom eternal contradictions are part and parcel of existence.

well played, sir. well played.

Kalandros
08-07-2012, 18:19
Because the Necron codex is literally bursting with units that can take out power armour, destroyers have AP3 guns, 3+ saves have never been a problem, what the heck is GWs obsession with making terminators near immortal in this edition?

I don't think Necrons have any lack of anti-terminator weapons:

Warscythe
Rending (wraiths, deathmarks)
DespairTek in Deathmark (2+ to wound AP1 flamer)
etc
etc

Chem-Dog
08-07-2012, 18:23
[snip]

Cheers for the explanation.

Instinct would be for me to say, well Duh, it's called a Sword it's a Sword. Were I to be constructing a Necron Army and using that piece of equipment I would use it as such. But that's not to say I can't see the other side of the argument too, but reading through this thread is does seem to be that anyone saying "It looks like an Axe to me" is attempting to use super wish powers rather than reasoned argument.

Freakiq
08-07-2012, 18:29
My Necrons will use them as swords.

They are power weapons described as swords, hence they are power swords.

If they'd had the option to buy 'Power Weapons' for X points I could see the logic but not when they are specifically called swords.

zippy77
08-07-2012, 18:47
My Necrons will use them as swords.

They are power weapons described as swords, hence they are power swords.

If they'd had the option to buy 'Power Weapons' for X points I could see the logic but not when they are specifically called swords.

They are no longer even power swords, just AP 3 str as user as per necron digi codex (I posted a screen shot, though not directly here to avoid breaking the rules).

insectum7
08-07-2012, 20:22
So......i can model the Power weapons of my CSM terminators as axes, and have AP2 and +1S without paying extra points? Great to know.

IMO? Yeah you can, totally. If the weapon listing in your codex (or FAQ now) says "models have a power weapon", then go for it.

For example, my Space Marine codex says the Terminator Sargent has a Power Sword. My FAQ says that I should read all references in the army list of "Power Sword" as "Power Weapon". So now my Terminator Sargent has a choice now between a few different types, depending on how I model it. I'm honestly considering giving him a Maul for the +2 S and Concussive ability for fighting MCs and being able to Instant Death Eldar and IG Officers.

My Crozus Arcanums got turned into a Maul, and my Librarians Staff is now a " Force Stave". The Crozius I can't change, because it's assigned "Maul" in the BRB. The Force Weapon I could model differently and have a different weapon, or declare what I want for the friendly fights.


For the Hyperphase Sword, which "counts as a power weapon" in the Necron codex and has "no further special rules" as the qualifier from the BRB, I'd personally allow the Necron player to have the same choice as everybody else. As a secondary note the default model looks like axes to me.

Edit:

They are no longer even power swords, just AP 3 str as user as per necron digi codex (I posted a screen shot, though not directly here to avoid breaking the rules).

If that's the case then AP 3 at user S it is. I think it's unfortunate, but it's clear.

jason_sation
09-07-2012, 00:21
I'm guessing that the sword is loosely based on the Khopesh, which is a sword based on an axe? Hence the confusion amongst players as to why an axe is being called a sword in this game? I'm not an expert on this, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh

Draconis
09-07-2012, 01:17
Go back a page or two jason :) I've already cleared that part up for ya

war_ripper
08-09-2012, 11:58
Oh look i found an axe..... well i'll just leave this here :p

150773

LeonidasL
08-09-2012, 13:35
FAQ answers this: it is a SWORD!!!! (well, I guess a thingy called hyperphase swords kinda gave that away, but it is a wargaming world here where common sense sometimes is overruled by RAWR)

Sithlord
08-09-2012, 14:46
dude... necron were never meant to get into CC unless they have to do it to prevent from chunking your otherwise precious shooting unit, that's what the lychguard shield are for dammit (plus T5 too) , the swords are just meant to take down most unit just not termie one. if you want just go for warscythes and strike on I 2 against termies (most unit who wear 2+ save usually have unwieldly weapons anyway, so there is advantage to bring warsycthes now) and ONE more thing, FAQ take stands, which is said hyperphase is power sword plain and simple, you got the frakkin shield and T5, what's more you have to ask

Archibald_TK
08-09-2012, 18:04
dude... necron were never meant to get into CC unless they have to do it to prevent from chunking your otherwise precious shooting unit
You can do massively CC oriented Necron armies if you so desire. You'll find that people tend to play an army the way they want, not the way other people on the Internet think it's meant to be played.
Anyway now that the FAQ clearly said to forget about Power Axes and that when it's called a sword, it's a sword (madness!), maybe that thread can go the way of the dodo?

agurus1
08-09-2012, 20:39
yeah the new FAQ puts this debate (if there really was any REAL argument in the first place) to an end

Freakiq
08-09-2012, 21:22
Common sense finally wins over straw-grasping.

The fact that this was even an issue almost makes me ashamed to play Necrons.

Spiney Norman
08-09-2012, 23:32
Common sense finally wins over straw-grasping.

The fact that this was even an issue almost makes me ashamed to play Necrons.

That's a little harsh, for me it was more of an indignant protest that imperial armies get to upgrade their power weapons for free just by modelling them as axes and we didn't, now they've outlawed even the protest all I can do is shake my head at the notion that some armies can upgrade their cc weapons for free just by changing how the models looks and other can't.

nedius
09-09-2012, 08:25
That's a little harsh, for me it was more of an indignant protest that imperial armies get to upgrade their power weapons for free just by modelling them as axes and we didn't, now they've outlawed even the protest all I can do is shake my head at the notion that some armies can upgrade their cc weapons for free just by changing how the models looks and other can't.

Welcome to GW, where every non Imperial Codex with a simmilar rule gets FAQed so that Imperials Can, Others Can't.

But to be honest... a weapon named in the codex as a sword should have always be a sword, no matter how it is moddled.

I'd suggest that when SM codexes are updated, sword should be basic, axe and maul upgrades.

xxRavenxx
09-09-2012, 09:38
I'm entirely sure the imperial (and chaos) stopgap will go away with each new book. Some units will get specific power weapons, characters will get to pick, and everyone will quieten down on how unfair it is :)

Meanwhile the tau will sit and glare at all the shiny close combat weapons...

Lord Damocles
09-09-2012, 09:56
Common sense finally wins over straw-grasping.

The fact that this was even an issue almost makes me ashamed to play Necrons.
Do notice that the change from 'Power Weapon' to 'Power Sword' is an amendment though, not an FAQ answer - so the rule has actually been changed.

Freakiq
09-09-2012, 10:14
Do notice that the change from 'Power Weapon' to 'Power Sword' is an amendment though, not an FAQ answer - so the rule has actually been changed.

Amendments in these FAQ's are often used to clarify rather change how a rule works.

This doesn't mean they were axes before.

Lord Zarkov
09-09-2012, 11:00
That's a little harsh, for me it was more of an indignant protest that imperial armies get to upgrade their power weapons for free just by modelling them as axes and we didn't, now they've outlawed even the protest all I can do is shake my head at the notion that some armies can upgrade their cc weapons for free just by changing how the models looks and other can't.

Imperials have to lose quite a bit of initiative to use axes though (and risk being killed by their power-sword armed enemies). Necrons are already striking after anything that's not a power fist so the switch to an axe has less of a penalty - hence, while for Imperials an axe is worth the same as a sword, for Necrons it's clearly worth more.

Given that C:Necrons was written with 6th in mind, it seems to me the reason the Hyperphase Sword was invented in the first place (rather than simply giving them a power weapon in their entry) was specifically so they only have Swords as Axes are worth more to them. After all, why take Warscythes when you're already wounding Marines on 2s and ignoring 2+ saves and striking last either way? Especially when it costs more on a Character.

Archibald_TK
09-09-2012, 11:25
Disclaimer, so that people don't the feeling that I am defending the use of axes:
1- I'm a partisan of "If it's called a sword and looks like a sword, then it's a sword"
2- I understand that Axes would justify getting the LG out of their shelves from time to time, but I don't like the idea of bending the rules in order to save an unit.
3- My view of the LG is clear cut, in 5th their were poor with Warscythes and mediocre with swords, in 6th they are poor with both.
4- They have 2 main problems, the lack of clear role in the army due to having no real enemy type they would be efficient against, and the ridiculous price tag which is one of the sources of the previous problem.


Imperials have to lose quite a bit of initiative to use axes though (and risk being killed by their power-sword armed enemies). Necrons are already striking after anything that's not a power fist so the switch to an axe has less of a penalty - hence, while for Imperials an axe is worth the same as a sword, for Necrons it's clearly worth more.
That is a non issue, as even with an axe the Lychguard efficiency is not on par with its price tag, with a sword it's even worse.


Given that C:Necrons was written with 6th in mind, it seems to me the reason the Hyperphase Sword was invented in the first place (rather than simply giving them a power weapon in their entry) was specifically so they only have Swords as Axes are worth more to them.
True, but they said at the open day that 6th was only finalized 6 months before release, the Necron Codex was already released at that point thus explaining dysfunctional rules in 6th like the Nightscythes transport capabilities. None of us know which rules were clearly defined at that point and which ones weren't.


After all, why take Warscythes when you're already wounding Marines on 2s and ignoring 2+ saves and striking last either way? Especially when it costs more on a Character.
That on the other hand is the real problem for Characters. Everyone playing a Lord in an unit would equip it with an axe instead of a Warscythes if that was possible.

The bearded one
09-09-2012, 15:57
Meanwhile the tau will sit and glare at all the shiny close combat weapons...

* sits and glares at all the shiny close combat weapons *





* starts reloading *


That on the other hand is the real problem for Characters. Everyone playing a Lord in an unit would equip it with an axe instead of a Warscythes if that was possible.

I haven't read or fought Necrons in a while, but don't warscythes have extra (2D6) armour penetration?

Lord Zarkov
09-09-2012, 16:11
I haven't read or fought Necrons in a while, but don't warscythes have extra (2D6) armour penetration?

Yeah Warsythes do get +2 S and armourbane, but things are getting pretty desperate in 6th if a Necron character is forced to start hitting vehicles with his stick - anti tank being something the army's not terribly short of.

Vipoid
09-09-2012, 17:50
Yeah Warsythes do get +2 S and armourbane, but things are getting pretty desperate in 6th if a Necron character is forced to start hitting vehicles with his stick - anti tank being something the army's not terribly short of.

No, but it's a nice option to be able to fall back on.

Personally, if I was going to equip my lords/overlords with a power weapon, it would be a warscythe - I frankly couldn't care less about them not being able to have power axes.

For me, Lychguard are the real problem, because they're just crappy assault terminators, which can't even take a decent transport.

Archibald_TK
09-09-2012, 22:11
I haven't read or fought Necrons in a while, but don't warscythes have extra (2D6) armour penetration?
Yes they do, and they also are AP1 and are not unwieldy, making them one of the best weapons in the game. The difference with the power weapon and the scythe is that the Power Weapon is free. When you take into consideration a Lord/LG stats, you either strike at S7 I2 with a scythe, or you would have hit at S6 I1 shall Axes have been allowed.
Since Axes would be free in the case of the Lords, which are already quite costly for a sarge, or would have come packed with an Invulnerable save in the case of the LG, the value of the Warscythe would have greatly gone down.


Personally, if I was going to equip my lords/overlords with a power weapon, it would be a warscythe - I frankly couldn't care less about them not being able to have power axes.
Paying the price of the Warscythes on my Lords has always been an issue in all of my lists using them, especially since they are costly 1W models. I would personally always happily default to axes if they were available and use the saved points on additional Crypteks.
Overlords are another matter entirely. I have never ever equipped them with anything else than a Warscythe and I don't think I could find any justification to use another weapon.

xxRavenxx
09-09-2012, 22:27
Yeah Warsythes do get +2 S and armourbane, but things are getting pretty desperate in 6th if a Necron character is forced to start hitting vehicles with his stick - anti tank being something the army's not terribly short of.

Depends on what you're up to I think.

Overlords clearly like them for being able to swoop overhead in their pimped out battle helicopters, mowing down vehicles on the way, obviously lords don't get to have such fun. I will say this though: A scythe is I2. I2 is a very important jump ahead of I1. I1 is where powerfists live. If you can challenge a marine sergeant, and off him before he hits, then yay for you! :P Same goes for killing TH termies before their turn at playing whack-a-necron.

Oh and it never hurts to be able to break a dreadnought in half, for those days where you just couldnt muster three 6's in the shooting phase..

Spiney Norman
09-09-2012, 22:38
Yes they do, and they also are AP1 and are not unwieldy, making them one of the best weapons in the game. The difference with the power weapon and the scythe is that the Power Weapon is free. When you take into consideration a Lord/LG stats, you either strike at S7 I2 with a scythe, or you would have hit at S6 I1 shall Axes have been allowed.
Since Axes would be free in the case of the Lords, which are already quite costly for a sarge, or would have come packed with an Invulnerable save in the case of the LG, the value of the Warscythe would have greatly gone down.


Paying the price of the Warscythes on my Lords has always been an issue in all of my lists using them, especially since they are costly 1W models. I would personally always happily default to axes if they were available and use the saved points on additional Crypteks.
Overlords are another matter entirely. I have never ever equipped them with anything else than a Warscythe and I don't think I could find any justification to use another weapon.

Funny I wouldn't even consider giving a lord an unwieldy weapon, to do so would leave them vulnerable to the only thing that can cut through their semp weave - power fists, a scythe is a much better option since he can't get an inv save anyway (discounting a phase shifter on a 1w model as the cost is totally absurd).

The only model I would want to take a power axe on would be a lych guard because current you get them in two flavours, scythes (which means they can kill pf termies, but get butchered by anything with a power sword) or shield (resilient, but can't scratch 2+AS), being able to take the inv save and still kill terminators would have made them viable, as it is, they are not.

Of course that analysis is invalidated slightly by the spate of dark Eldar ap2 cc weapons that strike in int order (so at like int 6-7)

The_Klobb_Maniac
09-09-2012, 23:12
I may own necrons; I may agree with both sides; but I really want the "axes" option (hear me out before chastising me..)

Why?

Because axes => Spears. Do you realize how cool looking Shields + Spears is? Anyone who frets about the argument of Axes vs. Swords from the game-play point of view is missing the real deal; some of us like to convert cool models that also fit the rules; and this severely limits that aspect.

This in itself is not an argument; merely that others have lost their way in this hobby.

theunwantedbeing
09-09-2012, 23:20
I may own necrons; I may agree with both sides; but I really want the "axes" option (hear me out before chastising me..)

Why?

Because axes => Spears. Do you realize how cool looking Shields + Spears is?

You can still model them with spears you know.
You lose the +1 strength when assaulting bit of course, but you do retain AP3 the entire time.

At least it cleared the issue up.
Note plenty of other things also suffered the same fate, howling banshees for example are now all stuck with power swords.

Archibald_TK
10-09-2012, 01:21
Funny I wouldn't even consider giving a lord an unwieldy weapon, to do so would leave them vulnerable to the only thing that can cut through their semp weave - power fists, a scythe is a much better option since he can't get an inv save anyway (discounting a phase shifter on a 1w model as the cost is totally absurd).
The Scythe is a better option for a Lord with Weave, the unwieldy weapon if it existed would be a better option for a Lord with MSS.


Of course that analysis is invalidated slightly by the spate of dark Eldar ap2 cc weapons that strike in int order (so at like int 6-7)
Dreadknights, Trygons Prime and Flyrants out of my head can all issue challenges and have high initiative AP2 attacks.

Retrospectus
10-09-2012, 02:17
so like a tervigon is a a troops choice, but you can take it as a HQ?
Just don't call her a tervigon unless you want to experience the "rage" USR first hand

Spiney Norman
10-09-2012, 08:54
The Scythe is a better option for a Lord with Weave, the unwieldy weapon if it existed would be a better option for a Lord with MSS.


Dreadknights, Trygons Prime and Flyrants out of my head can all issue challenges and have high initiative AP2 attacks.

In other words, as long as you don't expect your overlord to wander round chopping up monstrous creatures you'll be fine, for everything else, there's a phase shifter...

Lord Damocles
10-09-2012, 08:56
Wait, there are Lords without MSS? :p

Archibald_TK
10-09-2012, 12:32
In other words, as long as you don't expect your overlord to wander round chopping up monstrous creatures you'll be fine, for everything else, there's a phase shifter...
You are losing me. What do Overlords have to do in the middle of the conversation and why would someone give anything other than a Warscythe to an Overlord? Or was your point that you don't want to use MSS on an Overlord?

In case it's me who's not managing to get my points let me reiterate: shall Power Axes have been allowed for Necrons, I would always had promoted going for a 50pts Lord with Axe+MSS instead of a 60pts Weave+Warscythes one and use the saved points to try to fit an additional Cryptek.

Arnizipal
10-09-2012, 14:02
I think this thread has run its course...

Locked.

Arnizipal,

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