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Lance Tankmen
07-07-2012, 23:44
so i was pretty sure stats couldnt go past ten, yet attacks can? i loaned my friend my BRB but if the mountain chimera with 4d6 attacks can go above ten then a doombull/anybody with blood greed can go above ten attacks from winning enough fights?

Lord Dan
08-07-2012, 00:19
Unless there's an update in the BRB FAQ, they cannot. Pg. 3:

"All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - they cannot go below 0 or above 10."

There is nothing in the section for "Attacks (A)" beneath that which would contradict this rule.

Mr_Rose
08-07-2012, 01:02
The chimera is widely accepted to be fully capable of striking many more than ten times in a single round based on th principal that "4D6" is found nowhere on the number line between 0 and 10, as well as the fact that no-one seems bothered that models with random movement values of 2 or 3D6 regularly go faster than a movement value of 10 would allow.

Blood reed/frenzy and the like however, grant extra attacks which are bound by the limit because they do explicitly add to the A characteristic.

Basically random variables in characteristics break a lot of 'rules' about what is supposed to happen simply by existing outside the framework from which those rules depend.

narrativium
08-07-2012, 01:03
I'm pretty sure random values like that can go over. There's an entry in the Daemon FAQ stating that Dark Insanity can cause a model to have more than 10 attacks.

Aside from that, though - it makes a sort of sense for most characteristics to stay within 0-10, as they relate to specific tables or characteristic tests, but just theoretically, it doesn't make sense to me that Movement, Wounds or Attacks should have that limitation, because they're always a number of thing instead of a comparative rating to roll against.

DaemonReign
08-07-2012, 01:21
Yeah it's in the FAQ:

Random Attacks can go beyond 10 (Dark Insanity, Mountain Chimera Attacks, etcetera)
The only other instance I'm aware of is Birona's Timewarp's 'doubling' of the Target's Movement - but this is something GW has managed to address in a way that makes the Community still debate the actual RAW meaning, if I remember correctly.

reddevil18
08-07-2012, 03:29
Random attacks can go beyond 10, what about doing double the amount of attacks? Im thinking of archaons sword here mainly but if there is another item that does it how does that one work?

Ximinipot
08-07-2012, 06:20
Yes, the Chimera's Attack Characteristic is 4D6, not 6 or 7. That's what he does, hits you a butt ton of times. Along the same principle as an Ancient Stegadon's Giant Blow Pipes. Each blow Pipe fires 2D6 shots, that's what it does. Granted this example is Close Combat vs Shooting attacks, but you get what I mean. :D

theunwantedbeing
08-07-2012, 09:54
Random attacks can go beyond 10, what about doing double the amount of attacks? Im thinking of archaons sword here mainly but if there is another item that does it how does that one work?

The swords lets him fight with double his attacks, so it won't cap at 10 unless an FAQ says so.

VC Red Fury would work in a similar way, bonus attacks aren't capped by a stat limit.

Random attacks aren't capped at all.
Presumably for that singular 4D6 attack Mountain Chimeara you can occasionally turn a mage into...so you don't always get stuck with "just" 10 attacks form it.

The rules are unsurprisingly, a bit of a mess.
Hopefully now 6th ed 40k has appeared GW might finally get around to FAQ/Errata'ing the things that need it to more sensible answers.

Andy p
08-07-2012, 11:16
So for example, if a Savage orc warboss has the battleaxe of the last waaagh and rolls a 6, it would put him at 11 attacks, (4 normally and 1 for frenzy), so he would have to cap at 10 correct?

But obviously something like the chimera can go above because it as 4d6 attacks, or for example a giant jumping up and down or some of the HPA's attacks.

decker_cky
09-07-2012, 13:20
There's cases where models can make additional attacks which aren't attacks per say (brass cleaver and ramhorn helm jump out to me as a beastmen player, but there's lots of others).

Mati
09-07-2012, 23:07
It's possible to have so many attacks but it's more rare than a hydra

Lord Dan
09-07-2012, 23:19
So for example, if a Savage orc warboss has the battleaxe of the last waaagh and rolls a 6, it would put him at 11 attacks, (4 normally and 1 for frenzy), so he would have to cap at 10 correct?

But obviously something like the chimera can go above because it as 4d6 attacks, or for example a giant jumping up and down or some of the HPA's attacks.

I'm not sure this is correct. I was under the impression that you could only have 10 "built in" to your profile, if you will. Your case is really no different from the chimera's if we're talking just about the rules involved, as if the Orcs attack value is "5 + D6" the Chimera's is simply "0 + 4D6".

oldWitheredCorpse
10-07-2012, 08:00
The battleaxe of the last WAAAAGH gives bonus attacks and strength and is capped. Hellpits and manticores have a random number of attacks and are not capped at 10. That part is pretty simple.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-07-2012, 09:37
Okay...so the rulebook distinguishes between bonus and random attacks or stats? I mean of course it would be a bit silly to introduce a model with "4d6-but-only-up-to-10-attacks" but if it caps stats, if attacks are a stat and if there's no rule about possibly higher random stats, it seems pretty clear-cut to me.

oldWitheredCorpse
10-07-2012, 09:54
Okay...so the rulebook distinguishes between bonus and random attacks or stats? I mean of course it would be a bit silly to introduce a model with "4d6-but-only-up-to-10-attacks" but if it caps stats, if attacks are a stat and if there's no rule about possibly higher random stats, it seems pretty clear-cut to me.

Look at it this way: just as units with random movement don't have a true "Move value", units with random number of attacks do not have a Attacks value. But I agree that the distinction is too implicitly made.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-07-2012, 10:05
Well, the M stat is not capped at 10. My knights and my buddy's Ogres often move more by simply doubling this value. I see what you mean but the MV is probably not a good precedent for other stats.

Mr_Rose
10-07-2012, 17:04
The Movement stat is capped just like every other and a "timewarped" horse has a M value of 10, not 16: Marching and so on doesn't double your stat, it allows you to move a distance that is twice the value.

DaemonReign
10-07-2012, 22:21
The Movement stat is capped just like every other and a "timewarped" horse has a M value of 10, not 16: Marching and so on doesn't double your stat, it allows you to move a distance that is twice the value.

This is a much debated issue.
Birona's Timewarp doubling effect on Movement.
I've followed it discussed up and down pages and pages of Forum threads.
Without reaching a satisfactory conclusion.
It just isn't cut and dry.

Mr_Rose
11-07-2012, 02:17
Not since the errata ade it clear the spell specifically changes the value of the stat.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-07-2012, 10:40
Twice but not double? What an odd distinction, Mr Rose. Capped at 10 but allowed to be 16? What are we dealing with here, quantum logic rules?

oldWitheredCorpse
11-07-2012, 12:34
Twice but not double? What an odd distinction, Mr Rose. Capped at 10 but allowed to be 16? What are we dealing with here, quantum logic rules?

When you march 20", your Move stat does not equal 20. Marching allows you to move twice your Move stat, that's all. Marching is a rule, not a modification of a stat.

Mr_Rose
11-07-2012, 12:53
Twice but not double? What an odd distinction, Mr Rose. Capped at 10 but allowed to be 16? What are we dealing with here, quantum logic rules?

Again then: marching does not double, temporarily or otherwise, your Movement Allowance Characteristic. In fact it doesn't alter your M value at all. Birona's Timewarp, for example, does.

Characteristics are capped whereas distances moved on the tabletop, though defined by their relationship to a particular characteristic, are not capped in any way.

Or what oldWitheredCorpse said if the above is too generalised.