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View Full Version : New High Elf Player - Question on the book of hoeth which also links in with Teclis



untimention
08-07-2012, 19:53
Hi guys,

quick question on the book of heoth as i assummed something and got pointed that the assumption is incorrect

the assumption was that if i got a double then the spell is cast, regardless of whether i have rolled enough in the dice to meet the requirement

e.g. i roll 2 dice and get two 2's = 4 ..... and say the spell needed 10, it didnt matter as i have cast with irrissistable and the rules state you don't need to hit the no. needed if you cast with irrissistable

this assumption seems to have been shot down as in the FAQ for both the book of heoth and teclis is states that there needs to be a double and the dice must meet the casting value (not in these exact words)

So my question is to make sure this is how everyone plays it............. just checking ;)

tmarichards
08-07-2012, 19:58
This has come up a few times, long story short you absolutely have to reach the casting value.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-07-2012, 23:42
I can attest that what tmarichards has said above is correct.

theunwantedbeing
09-07-2012, 00:03
Note that due to a balls up in the latest FAQ, you can only benefit from those special rules when rolling 2 dice.
As they altered it from a successful casting roll that includes a double, to a successful casting roll that is a double.

Teclis and a mage with the Book of Hoeth cannot get irresistable force without double 6's on any spell they attempt with more than 2 dice.

Heres the latest High Elf FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610147a_FAQ_HighElves_V1_4.pdf) to back up this rediculous claim of mine.

tmarichards
09-07-2012, 00:46
My initial thought was, don't be silly.

The I read it again, and that's actually kind of awesome :)

I don't think I'll ever enforce it though.

woodster17
09-07-2012, 01:06
Note that due to a balls up in the latest FAQ, you can only benefit from those special rules when rolling 2 dice.
As they altered it from a successful casting roll that includes a double, to a successful casting roll that is a double.

Teclis and a mage with the Book of Hoeth cannot get irresistable force without double 6's on any spell they attempt with more than 2 dice.

Heres the latest High Elf FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610147a_FAQ_HighElves_V1_4.pdf) to back up this rediculous claim of mine.

Well blow me down, never noticed that. In fact, I just skimmed over it. Crazy. They've written is a instead of includes. I would never enforce, as tmarichards says as it seems to be just a typo.

Spiney Norman
09-07-2012, 11:20
Note that due to a balls up in the latest FAQ, you can only benefit from those special rules when rolling 2 dice.
As they altered it from a successful casting roll that includes a double, to a successful casting roll that is a double.

Teclis and a mage with the Book of Hoeth cannot get irresistable force without double 6's on any spell they attempt with more than 2 dice.

Heres the latest High Elf FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610147a_FAQ_HighElves_V1_4.pdf) to back up this rediculous claim of mine.

Oh wow, that is hilarious, and I sure as hell will enforce it, anyone who brings the cheesiest magic item/special character in the game deserves everything they get. In short, if your gamey enough to bring such an item, I'm gamey enough to enforce the current official FAQ.

All this ruling means is that those two abominations won't get used, which IMHO is a massive victory for game balance, and in any case, assuming they get a vaguely competent author to work on the next HE book auto-IF abilities will disappear anyway.

Moss
09-07-2012, 15:04
And you know they're not going to correct it, because that would mean releasing a FAQ to clarify a FAQ. And that would just be flat out embarassing.

Senor
09-07-2012, 18:00
You need to have a succesfull casting roll (on any successful casting roll). When spell is 16 and 12 is needed with lvl 4, you need to roll 12 for sure. And when it has a double, it will have IF. But only with double 6 it is also a miscast.

More info can be found at HE home website: www.ulthuan.net

AlphariusOmegon20
10-07-2012, 16:35
Oh wow, that is hilarious, and I sure as hell will enforce it, anyone who brings the cheesiest magic item/special character in the game deserves everything they get. In short, if your gamey enough to bring such an item, I'm gamey enough to enforce the current official FAQ.

All this ruling means is that those two abominations won't get used, which IMHO is a massive victory for game balance, and in any case, assuming they get a vaguely competent author to work on the next HE book auto-IF abilities will disappear anyway.

I agree. I'll be enforcing it.

I pointed this out yesterday to the guys at my local GW Bunker also. They were unaware of the change in wording, but after reading it, they agreed that that is how the Book and Teclis both work now. You can be sure they will enforce it also.

Glen_Savet
10-07-2012, 19:03
I don't think it's necessary to enforce such a strict ruling. Even WITH Teclis, High Elves aren't super powered game breaking machines. They'll still lose.

Wicksy
10-07-2012, 19:35
I doubt that is a typo......sounds more like it was balancing something broken as hell. Well done to GW if thats the case :)

Bloodedsoul
12-07-2012, 17:41
I don't understand how it says only on 2 dice?
"Any spell cast by the bearer will be cast with
irresistible force on any successful casting roll which is a
double, however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll
includes a double 6."

Dragonrage5454
12-07-2012, 17:59
I don't understand how it says only on 2 dice?
"Any spell cast by the bearer will be cast with
irresistible force on any successful casting roll which is a
double, however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll
includes a double 6."

The statement saying "however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6." shows that it can be more than just 2 dice.
personally it is worded bad with the fewest amount of words which leads into these kinds of thought processes and interpretations.

Senor
12-07-2012, 21:04
The Book of Hoeth has always required a successful casting roll--meaning the total of the dice must add up to or beat the required casting value. If you do that AND have doubles, you will cast irresistably. This is how, I believe, the majority of the warhammer universe plays it.

Some claim that since doubles cause irresistable force then it is a "successful" cast just to get doubles. I do not think this is the intention of the rule though.

While it is a very powerful item, it is 100 points, so it is supposed to be powerful. You have to have a lord level mage to carry it and if he does he can carry nothing else. Considering our mages are T3 with no armor and no ward saves, that can be pretty risky. That being said, most people consider the book cheesy since the opponent can't really do anything about it other than try to kill the mage before your magic runs roughshod over him. Keep in mind though that if you use the BoH that your magic phase becomes all about the IFs since your opponent will have all their DP sitting around waiting for a spell you finally don't get doubles on. Plus your chances of double 6's goes up when you throw a lot of PD around trying to get IFs and the miscasts will catch up to you eventually (and usually at the worst possible time). You won't even have a ward save to be able to try to mitigate some of the possible outcomes.

kefkah
12-07-2012, 21:20
I agree. I'll be enforcing it.

I pointed this out yesterday to the guys at my local GW Bunker also. They were unaware of the change in wording, but after reading it, they agreed that that is how the Book and Teclis both work now. You can be sure they will enforce it also.


Whoa, you got no life innit?`.

IF someone uses book of hoeth, or telics, in competetive play, thats a whooping -40 comp for book, wich goes up 120 if banner of sorcery and lore of life/shadow, while teclis is already at -190, and 250 if lore of shadow/life and banner.

Thats around two hordes of white lion for the book and 4 hordes of white lion for teclis.

In other words,you cant run it in a tourney. And thats it, so if this typo is gonna be enforced, then teclis and book just got a whole lot cheaper to have in. Not to mention the point.

And if your playing a friendly game, then nack on your mate for having teclis in a friendly game.

For a 100 p items,people do abuse typos when they know ITS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME, wich i think every rulebook since 5et has had the beginning.

I bet your on of thoose players deploying chariots sideways so they can benefeit the single 1,5 inc of free reform at the start of the game.

Bloodedsoul
13-07-2012, 02:46
Well to be fair not all tournies run a comp system like that, the local ones here do not, granted teclis is banned( as are fateweaver, masque, and the named dwarf with the anvil)

woodster17
13-07-2012, 03:01
Also, to the OP, if you're a new HE player why are you jumping in at the deep end and loading up on Teclis magic death spam? Learn about your army and the way it works before pulling out the big guns. For example, if you're learning the basics of constructions and carpentry you don't get handed the sledgehammer and get told to bash stuff up in Lesson 1. It won't hold you in great stead when Teclis eventually gets balanced in the HE 8th edition and you're required to use the subtle nuances of the army.

AlphariusOmegon20
13-07-2012, 09:04
Glen, I'd bet you've never been on the bad end of a Teclis & Book IF Enfeebling Foe/ Dweller's double whammy before....


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Metacarpi
13-07-2012, 09:45
I don't understand how it says only on 2 dice?



"Any spell cast by the bearer will be cast with irresistible force on any successful casting roll which is a double, however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll includes a double 6."

It says the roll itself must be a double - a roll of noly 2 dice, both with the same result - not that the roll must include a double - a roll of any number of dice up to 6, 2 of which must have the same result.

That bit.

LiddellHart
13-07-2012, 11:17
But this sentence is internally inconsistent. Before the comma it does refer to a roll of only two dice. But after the comma it refers to the same roll and speaks of "includes".

Now the sentence contradicts itself, a grammatical explanation it's not possible. Enter common sense to imagine what was intended.

I feel your pain non-high-elf players, but enforcing this easter egg restriction finds no basis in the rules.

(I'm no HE player either though)

kefkah
13-07-2012, 12:58
But this sentence is internally inconsistent. Before the comma it does refer to a roll of only two dice. But after the comma it refers to the same roll and speaks of "includes".

Now the sentence contradicts itself, a grammatical explanation it's not possible. Enter common sense to imagine what was intended.

I feel your pain non-high-elf players, but enforcing this easter egg restriction finds no basis in the rules.

(I'm no HE player either though)


Im a HE player who dont use teclis ( since i cant) but thanks for writing that. Its so clear that the intentions of the errata wasent to make it only a double roll. So hence its not in the spirit of the game.

Anyone enforcing that is just squeezing out any bit of rule advantage he can have over another, by any means.

Metacarpi
13-07-2012, 14:08
But this sentence is internally inconsistent. Before the comma it does refer to a roll of only two dice. But after the comma it refers to the same roll and speaks of "includes".

Now the sentence contradicts itself, a grammatical explanation it's not possible. Enter common sense to imagine what was intended.

I feel your pain non-high-elf players, but enforcing this easter egg restriction finds no basis in the rules.

(I'm no HE player either though)

Oh, I completely agree, don't get me wrong!

kefkah
13-07-2012, 20:51
Alpha, what do you say that the whole sentence is inconsistense? you can clearly see that it is a typo.

Now, i never play teclis myself,since in a friendly game why should and in comp i cant, but it seems to me that the one thing i hate most about warhammer players is those who take advantage of things that arent meant to be. If i saw someone enforcing this rule then i would call him a cheat, since its a typo in a errata and wasent meant to be that you can only get it with a double dice only, since in the next sentence its read that any dice rolled incoulding a double. And before this errata, it was played correctly.

You hate teclis,and i know he is OP. If you play a friendly, bash on him using it, not going way over to cheat on a typo just to get that edge in a game.

Tarian
13-07-2012, 21:58
Personally, I'd frown upon people trying enforce the only 2-dice thing. If you don't want to play against Teclis/Book of Hoeth, say so before the game starts, and save both of you some time. Is this some "upmanship" where you get to show off how much better you are by dropping this ruling on someone?