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View Full Version : Fortifications for Imperial Players Only? (or a Tyranid Aegis Defense Line?)



Eldartank
08-07-2012, 22:02
Here's a question: Are the Fortifications (p. 114-119 in the 6th Edition Rulebook) available only to Imperial armies (Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Battle Sisters, etc.), or can they be used by any other army? It would seem unfair if only Imperial players could have access to the Icarus Lascannon and Quad-gun that are so good at defending against flyers. However, it would also be really cheesy if my Tyranid force had an Aegis Defense Line with Quad-gun, or a Fortress of Redemtion with an Icarus Lascannon.

If fortifications can actually be taken by players of any army, would it be acceptable to model a set of converted/kitbashed Tyranid-looking walls with some kind of mounted biocannon and count it as an Aegis Defense Line with Quad-gun? I already have several Tyranid bits from various kits, and several Tyranid Spore Chimneys and other Tyranid stuff from Forgeworld that I haven't done anything with yet. I could easily model a Tyranid version of an Aegis Defense Line with Quad-gun.

I would never even try to use any Imperial Fortifications with my Tyranids - It's just too cheesy and totally outside of any realistic storyline/fluff. However, if possible, I think some kind of Tyranid bio-construct wall with a mounted bio-cannon capable of shooting down flyers might be feasible from a storyline/fluff perspective (if those Fortifications really are available to all armies).

What are your thoughts on this?

AngelofSorrow
08-07-2012, 22:06
They can be used by any and all. Have fun!


Ready for eternal war!

Cthell
08-07-2012, 22:07
They are available for all armies, but I'm afraid this is another area where the Tyranids get screwed over - Tyranids are unable to operate weapon emplacements. You could still build the bio-walls though.

Interestingly, if you converted a bio-bastion analogue, all of the weapons would operate automatically if you garrison a unit inside (plus the unit would get to shoot out)

Dangersaurus
08-07-2012, 22:08
Yep. Everyone. Made myself a KFF/Tellyporta pad over the last couple days for a counts-as Skyshield.

Konovalev
08-07-2012, 22:18
It might seem odd to you that a tyranid is using an imperial fortification but think of it this way:

To the tyranid itself, what difference is there in taking cover behind a rock, some tyranno formed object, and an imperial fortification? It probably doesn't think twice about it. Cover is cover.

As for using the gun emplacements. Maybe the hivemind, in its all experiencing, ever adapting nature, knows how imperial weapons function and in this way a tyranid adjacent to a gun emplacement also finds itself capable of operating it. I was always under the impression that tyranids don't see the world like we do, they see it as an abstraction through the filter of the hivemind. They don't see a quad cannon, they just see <weapon> and move to make use of it.

Cthell
08-07-2012, 22:19
It might seem odd to you that a tyranid is using an imperial fortification but think of it this way:

To the tyranid itself, what difference is there in taking cover behind a rock, some tyranno formed object, and an imperial fortification? It probably doesn't think twice about it. Cover is cover.

As for using the gun emplacements. Maybe the hivemind, in its all experiencing, ever adapting nature, knows how imperial weapons function and in this way a tyranid adjacent to a gun emplacement also finds itself capable of operating it.

FAQ says tyranids can't operate weapons emplacement

Shamana
08-07-2012, 22:21
FAQ says tyranids can't operate weapons emplacement

Weapon symbiont: opposable thumbs.

Coming in the next Tyrannid 'dex, yo :P .

Eldartank
08-07-2012, 22:21
Sounds like I would have to make some kind of Tyranid bio-construct that counts as an Imperial Bastion for rules purposes. I could also probably do something similar for the Fortress of Redemtion. But apparently a bio-version of the Aegis Defense Line is out because it doesn't have automated weapons. Time for me to get to work on some Tyranid building conversions... ;)

Eldartank
08-07-2012, 22:25
It might seem odd to you that a tyranid is using an imperial fortification but think of it this way:

To the tyranid itself, what difference is there in taking cover behind a rock, some tyranno formed object, and an imperial fortification? It probably doesn't think twice about it. Cover is cover.

As for using the gun emplacements. Maybe the hivemind, in its all experiencing, ever adapting nature, knows how imperial weapons function and in this way a tyranid adjacent to a gun emplacement also finds itself capable of operating it. I was always under the impression that tyranids don't see the world like we do, they see it as an abstraction through the filter of the hivemind. They don't see a quad cannon, they just see <weapon> and move to make use of it.

I was thinking more on the lines of a completely Tyranid bio-construct that simply counted as one of those things rules-wise. Since a couple others pointed out that Tyranids can't operate gun emplacements, but the buildings with automated guns can still fire if a unit is inside, looks like I might end up building a Tyranid bio-construct that counts as something like an Imperial Bastion.

Eldartank
08-07-2012, 22:26
Yep. Everyone. Made myself a KFF/Tellyporta pad over the last couple days for a counts-as Skyshield.

I'm starting an Ork army, and I definitely plan on making a couple Orky conversions for some of those Fortifications.

Spiney Norman
08-07-2012, 22:26
FAQ says tyranids can't operate weapons emplacement

Seriously? Wow they've tried really hard to make Nids über-crap, so no weapon emplacements, no units with skyfire and no allies, so Tyranids have no way of dealing with flyers at all??? That's just cruel, as if the nid codex didn't have enough problems already...

Dangersaurus
08-07-2012, 22:32
FAQ says tyranids can't operate weapons emplacement


Seriously? Wow they've tried really hard to make Nids über-crap, so no weapon emplacements, no units with skyfire and no allies, so Tyranids have no way of dealing with flyers at all??? That's just cruel, as if the nid codex didn't have enough problems already...

Calm down until the next nerfbat hits - emplaced weapons and gun emplacements are two different things with slightly different rules. Tyranids can still use gun emplacements. By RAW they couldn't use the Icarus in a Fortress of Redemption, but they could use one in a Bastion or Aegis Line. It doesn't make sense, but hey... making lemonade.

Cthell
08-07-2012, 22:36
Calm down until the next nerfbat hits - emplaced weapons and gun emplacements are two different things with slightly different rules. Tyranids can still use gun emplacements. By RAW they couldn't use the Icarus in a Fortress of Redemption, but they could use one in a Bastion or Aegis Line. It doesn't make sense, but hey... making lemonade.

Not quite - they could use the Icarus in a Fortress or a Bastion, but not an Aegis Line

Dangersaurus
08-07-2012, 22:43
Not quite - they could use the Icarus in a Fortress or a Bastion, but not an Aegis Line

Nah, I've got it right. You're going to need to sit down and read it for yourself. Quad Gun gun emplacements come with the Aegis and Bastion. The heavy bolters on Bastions are emplaced weapons. The Icarus, heavy bolters, and missile silos on the FoR are emplaced weapons.

Gun emplacements can be targeted and have rules similar to artillery. Emplaced weapons can only be damaged on the building damage chart.

Edit: They mix the terminology on the "Battlefield Terrain" spread on p.88-89. So either a mix-up on that page, or this is another "special form of Tank Shock" that we can all argue about for a year or so.

Cthell
08-07-2012, 23:03
Fair enough, I stand corrected (although your original post has them the wrong way round; you put FoR - no fire, Bastion & Aegis - yes fire)

Interestingly, that means you can shoot the Quadgun off the top of a bastion...

Kloud13
09-07-2012, 01:13
Could probably use the Comms relay. Tyranid Pod lists are nasty.

Kakapo42
09-07-2012, 03:15
I'd be all for a scratch-built Tyranid defence line, it's always good to see some impressive and unusual terrain.

While on the subject of non-Imperial fortifications, I am saddened to see the lack of them. It seems to me that Forgeworld could make a tidy profit by releasing a line of xenos-themed fortifications...

Kloud13
09-07-2012, 03:20
There will be more Fortifications coming. GW has figured out that we are more likely to pay for their monthly catalog if it is the only place to get rules for the next piece of plastic we must also buy.

It says right in BRB, "Watch White Dwarf for more....."

NealRC
09-07-2012, 03:23
I'd be all for a scratch-built Tyranid defence line, it's always good to see some impressive and unusual terrain.

While on the subject of non-Imperial fortifications, I am saddened to see the lack of them. It seems to me that Forgeworld could make a tidy profit by releasing a line of xenos-themed fortifications...

Do you really thing that's fair? I mean, the imperial players have been so under-catered for of late. Let them have their moment in the sun and we can talk xenos later. Shame on you.

Dangersaurus
09-07-2012, 04:22
There will be more Fortifications coming. GW has figured out that we are more likely to pay for their monthly catalog if it is the only place to get rules for the next piece of plastic we must also buy.

It says right in BRB, "Watch White Dwarf for more....."

...or to put it with less snark: we're more likely to buy White Dwarf if it has more gaming content in it.

Clang
09-07-2012, 08:56
To me, it's a very similar situation to converting figures or vehicles - so long as the resulting fortification is the correct size and its weapons are obvious counts-as equivalents of those on the standard model, you can build whatever you like and very few opponents will complain.

Awfully tempting to build an Orky counts-as Fortress of Redemption. :)

But yeah, I'm sure GW are busy thinking up a pile of new fortifications to sell us...

Scalebug
09-07-2012, 10:56
What do you mean, "They cut the power"? How could they cut the power, man? They're animals!

Shiodome
09-07-2012, 11:03
while on the topic, could anyone help out with the dimensions of the GW aegis defense line? (length, height). id' prefer to make my own, but as the rule does seem to be related to that specific model i'd like it to be the same size just so i know i'm not gaining any 'advantage'.

Chem-Dog
09-07-2012, 12:03
FAQ says tyranids can't operate weapons emplacement

I'm going to be honest here, this blows every way from Sunday. Talk about kicking a Macropredator when it's down!


I was thinking more on the lines of a completely Tyranid bio-construct that simply counted as one of those things rules-wise. Since a couple others pointed out that Tyranids can't operate gun emplacements, but the buildings with automated guns can still fire if a unit is inside, looks like I might end up building a Tyranid bio-construct that counts as something like an Imperial Bastion.

To date GW have been happy to invent bio-constructs for any purpose they felt it necessary to have one with varying degrees of success (some of the Tyranid Apocalypse formations are abysmal) and I would heartily endorse and support the same approach in any player, up to and including any kind of integral weaponry in any Fortification-beast they care to come up with.


What do you mean, "They cut the power"? How could they cut the power, man? They're animals!

:D


while on the topic, could anyone help out with the dimensions of the GW aegis defense line? (length, height). id' prefer to make my own, but as the rule does seem to be related to that specific model i'd like it to be the same size just so i know i'm not gaining any 'advantage'.

They stand a couple of MM taller than a 'Fex and can accommodate four 'Fexes across the centre with space to spare. there's enough surface area on the Skyshield to sit five of the new oval bases comfortably. Where's my tape measure?!

battybattybats
09-07-2012, 13:17
Weapon symbiont: opposable thumbs.

Coming in the next Tyrannid 'dex, yo :P .

My 1st ed termagants have 2 on each hand!

As for tyrannic aegis lines I have one of these barricades http://www.darkartstore.darkartminiatures.com/categories/FIRST-CONTACT-TERRAIN/ which are good for aliens, kryomek and tyranids and have been planning to buy more anyway.

I'm loving the new edition except it really seems to have some bad balance issues for my poor beloved Tyrannids. Hopefully with the bits of old-school stuff that's been the trend lately we might see the return of genestealer cults into the ally system.. and the old school aliens in one artwork including a Zoat and the Tyranid codex mentioning rumours of the return of Hive Fleet Colossus also gives me hope.

Surely it wouldn't have been the end of the world if biovores and hive guard had been given skyfire.

I'm also thinking that there's subtle ways to tyrannic up the imperial terrain, especially the bastion. Some 'secreted resin' here, a hole torn in there with a spare bio-weapon or claw sticking out, signs of battle, claw marks, small blood splatter, acid damage, some weird vines growing up the side etc.

Kakapo42
10-07-2012, 00:42
I'm going to be honest here, this blows every way from Sunday. Talk about kicking a Macropredator when it's down!

"That's my style, I like to kick 'em when they're down!" Perhaps GW is secretly run by the animated head of Nixon?

Spell_of_Destruction
10-07-2012, 01:03
I expect we'll see some third party designers getting in on the act and releasing racial variations of the Imperial fortifications.

battybattybats
10-07-2012, 02:16
I expect we'll see some third party designers getting in on the act and releasing racial variations of the Imperial fortifications.

Well if GW can't meet the demand others will fill the gaps. Thats the fatal flaw in GWs 'stock determined by shelving space in our stores' policy.

Vhalyar
11-07-2012, 20:17
Meanwhile Chaos Screamers and Flamers flop around hysterically and manage to control the weapons just fine.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-07-2012, 22:34
Okay, now I want to model a Screamer of Tzeentch operating an Icarus Lascannon. That's just too funny!

AlphariusOmegon20
11-07-2012, 22:56
Well if GW can't meet the demand others will fill the gaps. Thats the fatal flaw in GWs 'stock determined by shelving space in our stores' policy.

Unfortunately, FW went down that road also, when they stopped selling the Tyranid Terrain.

Sir Falstaff
11-07-2012, 23:26
The whole Fortification gameplay element seems a bit rushed and not given the kind of thought it deserves. For one there are very few options available.

It's been said many times that the Fortifications element is a GW money-spinner but with a bit more development this side of the game could have been made worthwhile.

I'd say it's all an opportunity missed.

Tyranids... I weep for thee.

belgarath97
12-07-2012, 00:42
They are available for all armies, but I'm afraid this is another area where the Tyranids get screwed over - Tyranids are unable to operate weapon emplacements.

Um why? The rules to shoot a emplacement are simply that a model in base contact may shoot the emplacement rather than it's own weapon. Why would this exclude tyranids?

Dangersaurus
12-07-2012, 00:44
Um why? The rules to shoot a emplacement are simply that a model in base contact may shoot the emplacement rather than it's own weapon. Why would this exclude tyranids?

The FAQ did it, unfortunately. At least for emplaced weapons. Gun emplacements, by RAW, are still okay until the FAQ writers get their knives out again.

Beppo1234
12-07-2012, 00:54
on the points about building tyranid versions of imperial fortifications: I think a better approach would be just to modify the existing fortifications to define them as infested by tyranids. Tyranid fortifications just sounds unfluffy to me.

Gaargod
12-07-2012, 01:09
on the points about building tyranid versions of imperial fortifications: I think a better approach would be just to modify the existing fortifications to define them as infested by tyranids. Tyranid fortifications just sounds unfluffy to me.

I dunno. Hive towers seem fairly fortified to me. Admittedly, they should only be there after resistance has effectively ended, but GW managed to shoe-horn Hive Guard in there, so who knows?

Saying that, xenosifying some fortifications isn't a bad shout. It's also probably a damn sight easier to battle-mark, stick crap on and generally small-scale convert a bastion than it is to scratch build one.

Beppo1234
12-07-2012, 01:24
I dunno. Hive towers seem fairly fortified to me. Admittedly, they should only be there after resistance has effectively ended, but GW managed to shoe-horn Hive Guard in there, so who knows?

Saying that, xenosifying some fortifications isn't a bad shout. It's also probably a damn sight easier to battle-mark, stick crap on and generally small-scale convert a bastion than it is to scratch build one.

the hive towers and hive entrances are cool, and I'm all for them. But walls and landing pads just don't seem to fit the aesthetic.

Dangersaurus
12-07-2012, 01:30
But walls and landing pads just don't seem to fit the aesthetic.

I'm looking forward to seeing 28" long piles of squirming flesh and 12" square sphincters

...

In the game! I mean in the game!

Spell_of_Destruction
12-07-2012, 01:53
on the points about building tyranid versions of imperial fortifications: I think a better approach would be just to modify the existing fortifications to define them as infested by tyranids. Tyranid fortifications just sounds unfluffy to me.

Starcraft is a good source of inspiration for both 'infested' Imperial Fortifications and actual Tyranid structures.

I don't see why Tyranids shouldn't produce organisms that fulfil the same function as the fortification structures of other races.

EDMM
12-07-2012, 01:58
They can be used by any and all. Have fun!


Ready for eternal war!


You already have a signature line below your posts. Why do you have to write a further, second, signature above your signature, within your posts?

2nd place
12-07-2012, 03:17
If fortifications can actually be taken by players of any army, would it be acceptable to model a set of converted/kitbashed Tyranid-looking walls with some kind of mounted biocannon and count it as an Aegis Defense Line with Quad-gun? I already have several Tyranid bits from various kits, and several Tyranid Spore Chimneys and other Tyranid stuff from Forgeworld that I haven't done anything with yet. I could easily model a Tyranid version of an Aegis Defense Line with Quad-gun

the hive mind has relised it is expending more biomass than it is digesting and thus has had to slow ddown production of gants, and has come up with a novel way of helping the ones it can create live a little longer... a wall of hardened carapace with a biovore built in for good measure, all to be re-digested after the massacare of course

MajorWesJanson
12-07-2012, 05:28
One fortification that they really should have added to the BRB- Minefields. Say 2-3 Large Blast marker sized fields for for like 40 points each.

Dangersaurus
12-07-2012, 06:16
One fortification that they really should have added to the BRB- Minefields. Say 2-3 Large Blast marker sized fields for for like 40 points each.

They're in there, under the section on creating your own missions. You just need to agree with your opponent on a points cost if you want them to take fortification slots.

svien187
12-07-2012, 15:21
its called gaunts with guns or anything else with guns just roll 6's

battybattybats
12-07-2012, 16:43
Nothing is more important to the tyranids lifecycle than the syphoning off of a worlds biomass via the capillery towers and at no other point is a tyranid ship more vulnerable. It's already been mentioned that the imperium has at times tried introducing poisons into hiveships at this stage. So using a tiny amount of the biomass to grow some defences to protect this last stage makes perfect sense.

And for some battlefields it'd make sense for the tyranids to grow harder cover than tyranic trees. So some walls here or there as shields makes sense.

And on some battlefields the war rages endlessly like the stalemate amongst the orc worlds that Kryptman sent Leviathan into it would be another case where the tyranids might use defences.

2nd place
12-07-2012, 18:25
lets put it this way, the tyranids need constant supplies of biomass to function, the 1st stage in stopping a hive fleet invasion, slow down the rate of biomass absorbtion, do this and the hive mind will have to be careful with what it produces out of the biomass it does have, eventually if you can keep this stranglehold up the hive fleet will die off completely

and thus you could say it is a late stage invasion whereby the access to biomass is not great and therefore the hive mind needs some way to protect the creatures it can produce with little affect on the bio-pool, it no good producing 100 gants if they all get shot to bits withing minutes of planetfall, and so you re-absorb some (if any) biomass you spent, you kick out say 75 gants, the same thing happens, and the cycle would repeat untill the fleet was crushed, however 100 gants making planetfall behind a 20' wall of solid carapace... also allowing the rippers ect to absorb the injured ect makes invasion much easier as your critters are not dying faster than you can replace them

dwez
04-09-2012, 15:41
Mines coming along fine ;) And there's a quad gun to go with it too. Keep your eye's peeled, updates as fast as I can fit them on my blog.

150359

Firaxin
04-09-2012, 17:58
As a Tyranid player... why would you pay that many points on walls?!

Anyways, I don't see why you can't adapt the Imperial Armor/Apocalypse terrain rules. Infiltrate a Brood Nest for no-scatter deep strikes, plop a few spore chimneys down to create a no-fly zone for flyers, use a capillary tower or two stifle those annoying new psychic powers, etc. You just need a reasonably-minded/friendly opponent.

MajorWesJanson
04-09-2012, 18:46
As a Tyranid player... why would you pay that many points on walls?!

Anyways, I don't see why you can't adapt the Imperial Armor/Apocalypse terrain rules. Infiltrate a Brood Nest for no-scatter deep strikes, plop a few spore chimneys down to create a no-fly zone for flyers, use a capillary tower or two stifle those annoying new psychic powers, etc. You just need a reasonably-minded/friendly opponent.

What, 50 points for a 4+ cover you can place, and go to 2+ cover if you go to ground?

Firaxin
04-09-2012, 19:07
I guess with my playstyle I wouldn't sit still that long to make use of it... better to have the extra 10 guys those 50 points would buy. Where I play I can generally count on ~33% of the board being covered in terrain, so it's not terribly difficult to nab a cover save when I need to.

RealMikeBob
04-09-2012, 20:27
Tyranid fortifications sounds like a great opportunity for some genestealer cult conversions :)

Balerion
04-09-2012, 23:43
What, 50 points for a 4+ cover you can place, and go to 2+ cover if you go to ground?
I agree with you that the defense lines are very valuable, but it's worth noting that you'll rarely be able to go to ground behind them since models in Synapse range are Fearless, and Fearless models may not go to ground.

MajorWesJanson
05-09-2012, 01:54
Good point.

ehlijen
05-09-2012, 03:15
Being able to deploy the aegis line up to halfway onto the table means they are still very helpful even if you plan to mostly advance.

totgeboren
05-09-2012, 08:41
I could well imagine a Tyranid count-as Bastion as a sort of big drop pod. If I had my say, it would not be able to hold any troops, but instead it should be able to spawn gaunts exactly like a Tervigon. Of if that is too weak, allow it to ignore the first double. Something like that. All guns on the building/pod/beast are replaced by appropriate-looking nid guns, but use the standard profile of whatever imperial weapon it counts-as.

It would be a more in-character Tyranid strongpoint. A big reinforced birthing beast/pod with versatile long range defensive weaponry. It would also make sense for whatever forces are on the planet to attack any such big pods, as they are continuously producing reinforcements for the Tyranid ground forces. It would also explain the presence of things like ripper swarms and such.

dwez
06-09-2012, 18:12
I guess with my playstyle I wouldn't sit still that long to make use of it...

I was like you, always pushing forwards to engage, unfortunately 6th edition has meant that style of play for me often results in everything sent forward being minced before it can get into combat, overwatch certainly doesn't help. I've started to play more defensively with a counter attack attitude. It's been slightly more successful but I agree it goes against the nature of 'nids but if we were that good we wouldn't be one of those 'bottom tier' armies we keep being labeled!

Lantern
06-09-2012, 21:28
What, 50 points for a 4+ cover you can place, and go to 2+ cover if you go to ground?

Whilst not as large a save, would not a well placed Venomthrope provide cover for more of your army? Even creatures normally too big to hide could get help there.

ehlijen
07-09-2012, 04:07
The downside of the venomthrope is the slot it uses up and that it can be shot at and destroyed. Aegis lines cannot.
The venomthrope can definitely help out advencing behind some MCs hiding it, but trying to give cover to a swarm (ie little things it can't hide behind) will just see every AT weapon the enemy has being pointed at it.

Gingerwerewolf
27-06-2013, 11:13
With the FAQ's blowing the Quad Gun out of the water, can Tyranids instead use the Relay?

cynic
27-06-2013, 14:39
Seriously? Wow they've tried really hard to make Nids über-crap, so no weapon emplacements, no units with skyfire and no allies, so Tyranids have no way of dealing with flyers at all??? That's just cruel, as if the nid codex didn't have enough problems already...

Flyrants with iron arm - can take on any flyer with vector strike. Frank Marsh won the SWGC Tournament with such a list, beating a Corn Air list and other lists with flyers. So it is do-able.

But agreed. They are very limited with AA options.