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rocdocta
09-07-2012, 01:46
After playing a few games of 6th ed, i see a few things trending:

- any vehicle with 2 hull points will become extinct. I have night/doom scythes and in a single turn i evaporated 4 rifle dreads. i expect these will be replaced by the Doom/knight in the GK book.
- any vehicle that is not a flyer will live for about 2 turns before dying. may even be 1 turn only. so...
- with less vehicles melta weapons will drop off as will lascannon and AT will be more a high volume of S7 or S8 shots.
- APCs will be a taxi to get to the objective and not a tank anymore
- AV14 will become a greater survivability option compared to AV11 and 12 due to less melta and less glancing hits.
- less flyer transported troops as they will die if it crashes.
- more squads will be on the table at any one time.
- the game will be less a paper rock scissor as allies means that it will be very hard to predict what you are facing at a tourney for a while till things settle down
- terminators will become back in vogue again.

what does anyone else predict about 6th ed trends?

The bearded one
09-07-2012, 01:52
I think... I'm going to like it.

* flips off mechanised armies *

MooseOnTheLoose
09-07-2012, 02:41
I don't think mech armies will completely disappear. I think based off of what we can see, despite "sky is falling" ally builds some claim, we will be seeing drastically different things all over the place. Whether this is in the case of instead of all power weapons and meltaguns we see more flamers, plasmaguns, power fist, etc or more variety of builds, whether very specific armour companies, air calvary, hordes, down too actual list building. The idea of list building is going too be how to I prepare for, flyers, infantry, transports and tanks. Instead of my army is great against infantry, now i just need too tailor too handle a bunch of tanks and I am golden. The AP system now, allows for some serious tactical rethinking in wargear. There is gonna be a lot more flexibility in weapon choices, from plasma being anti tankish and anti infantry but not a give me in tank hunting, leaving melta as a "sure thing". Troops having too disembark too contest/capture/control objectives should make flamers much more useful as these unit have too get out and if people try last minute they should be tighter together, add in purchasable fortifications and flamers have more tactical usefulness. Power weapon choices could cost you a game depending on what you run into, sure axes are people net fav right now, but what if your opposition is wielding swords, outside of terminators, a lot of those axes are gonna be wishing they were mauls or swords cause they didn't even get there attacks off.

Daedalus81
09-07-2012, 03:24
- any vehicle that is not a flyer will live for about 2 turns before dying. may even be 1 turn only. so...


Well if all the vehicles die turn 1 then the other side must have some vehicles still?



- with less vehicles melta weapons will drop off as will lascannon and AT will be more a high volume of S7 or S8 shots.


What about terminator armor? You need AP1/2 for more than just vehicles.



- APCs will be a taxi to get to the objective and not a tank anymore

No complaints here.



- AV14 will become a greater survivability option compared to AV11 and 12 due to less melta and less glancing hits.


Plenty of lances out there.



- less flyer transported troops as they will die if it crashes.


But you just said all vehicles except flyers will die



- more squads will be on the table at any one time.
- the game will be less a paper rock scissor as allies means that it will be very hard to predict what you are facing at a tourney for a while till things settle down
- terminators will become back in vogue again.


Very likely.

Razaan
09-07-2012, 03:43
So I own a pretty heavy Mech Space Marine army at the moment. And while I'm no expert in 6th edition, I've got a few games in and I've brought vehicles in both. I honestly don't think vehicles are as bad as everyone claims. Sure, they may die a bit easier, but not much. The vehicle damage chart now only kills them on a 6.... so there is that. But what I experienced in my games is that while most of the vehicles did ultimately die in the end, they did a lot more while alive. The ability to move and shoot more weapons helped, but the biggest thing I found was the fact that glances no longer stopped me from doing anything. In one game I brought a Whirlwind. It had two glances on it before it finally died to a penetrating hit. In 5th, that thing would have been stunned or weapon destroyed for most of the game. In 6th, it just kept launching the missiles and knocking out the enemy after those glancing hits.

The changes to skimmers made my Landspeeders into something wonderful as well. Only 2 hull points, sure, but the mobility on them is now great while still firing both weapons. Add in the free 5+ save every time it moves and it becomes a pretty solid choice.

Overall, we might see a slight meta change to less vehicles and/or more shots of slightly lower strength, but I don't see vehicles going away like everyone predicts. It's not all doom and gloom if you actually play it out.

(Please note that I have not yet faced Necron in 6th, so my views may change, as always)

mughi3
09-07-2012, 03:52
After playing a few games of 6th ed, i see a few things trending:

- any vehicle with 2 hull points will become extinct. I have night/doom scythes and in a single turn i evaporated 4 rifle dreads. i expect these will be replaced by the Doom/knight in the GK book.
- any vehicle that is not a flyer will live for about 2 turns before dying. may even be 1 turn only. so...
- with less vehicles melta weapons will drop off as will lascannon and AT will be more a high volume of S7 or S8 shots.
- APCs will be a taxi to get to the objective and not a tank anymore
- AV14 will become a greater survivability option compared to AV11 and 12 due to less melta and less glancing hits.
- less flyer transported troops as they will die if it crashes.
- more squads will be on the table at any one time.
- the game will be less a paper rock scissor as allies means that it will be very hard to predict what you are facing at a tourney for a while till things settle down
- terminators will become back in vogue again.

what does anyone else predict about 6th ed trends?

Im adding a meta swing towards bikes, jet bikes, jump infantry, cavalry, artificer armor, terminators, rhino rush is back thanks to extra movement.

With ground vehicle (non skimmer) being relegated to hiding in cover gun-line duty if they are brought at all. those who do and can bring things to repair them will do so(techmarines, engineseers, ork mechs etc.. eldar need a bone singer now). fast skimmer vehicles will be the second tier after flyers and will try to stay at range and shoot/jink alot

rocdocta
09-07-2012, 06:01
Well if all the vehicles die turn 1 then the other side must have some vehicles still?
What about terminator armor? You need AP1/2 for more than just vehicles.
No complaints here.
Plenty of lances out there.
But you just said all vehicles except flyers will die
Very likely.

pretty sure you are just trolling but on the chance that you arent;
1. who ever has the better firepower will nail the others vehicles turn 1 or 2. not sure what your point was. maybe just trying to pick holes that arent there.
2. termis have always been more cheaply and reliably killed by volumes of str4 fire than 1 or 2 high powered AP1 or 2 shots. for the price of a demolisher you can get about 15 ish necron warriors. rapid fire = 30 shots = 15 wounds = 2.5 dead termis. a demol round would be lucky to catch 4 termies in the blast. wound 4 kill say 2 in 5+ cover at night +1 save or 2 or 3 with a 5+ invul save. massed bolters can deal with hordes and termis. whereas trying to whittle away a termi with a single melta per squad will leave you open to assault. an IG grenade launcher is more maneurverable and will readily remove hull points from a rhino from 24in away not 12.
3. actually lance is not a very common rule per army. sure DE and nids have it but the platform for DE is now incredibly fragile and zoanthropes need to be very close. i see AV14 starting to stand out again as quite survivable once people take higher volume AT like autocannon.
4. i said all vehicles bar flyers will die in the first turn. flyers must be in reserves 1st turn... please read the book before you try and pick holes in a post. makes you look worse for it. i will spell it out for you. with all flyer transports bar the night scythe if they crash its a high strength no armour save test for all passengers when it crashes. easy way to lose a lot of models.

tu33y
09-07-2012, 08:26
my predictions are a bit less concrete...

i expect some codex writer (i mean you ward) will Drop the AV15 bomb soon... i think its inevitable. To be honest i wouldnt be surprised if Chaos SM's have a rare varient Landie with AV15.

i think also a certain person will fanny with the the snap-fire rule "Lightning Reflexes- some warriors have such fast reactions or are so steady in the face of enemy fire they may SnapFire with (insert BS2, BS3, Their Normal BS for the next three PA/SM books in sequence)

you know it makes sense!!!

im semi-trolling here, but i do expect this kind of thing to evolve...

MiyamatoMusashi
09-07-2012, 08:49
AV10, HP2 vehicles are definitely going to go the way of the Dodo. Such things are worse than T6, W2 models because they don't have an armour save, or an invulnerable save, and find it harder to claim cover saves too.

I'm not necessarily saying that's good or bad (mech spam had to die) or that Hull Points in general are good or bad (...mech spam had to die!) but light vehicles are now trivially easy to wreck.

Also, I think melta is going to be seen less, but with plasma in favour. AP2 is the new black, but plasma brings more shots than melta, which is more important for taking out 2+ saves.

The bearded one
09-07-2012, 09:25
with all flyer transports bar the night scythe if they crash its a high strength no armour save test for all passengers when it crashes

mhmm.. funny how that turned out for the scythe, didn't it? We used to think of it as a disadvantage as it meant your unit had to go all the way back into reserve instead of arriving at the spot the vehicle crashed, but now it's suddenly a very beneficial rule stopping your entire squad from dying... peculiar, ward, peculiar..

Ebon
09-07-2012, 11:00
Not sure if tanks are going to be as fragile as you think but transports are likely to be. I can see those getting shot to pieces first turn.
I really, really hope nobody (i.e. Ward) goes to AV15 or more. That would just be too much. It might make sense for CSMs to have some rare, pre-Heresy Land Raider but it would be too unbalanced in play.
Still undecided on the allies rules. It might mean some fun, unpredictable choices or it might just mean people spam the best units from two codexes. I would have preferred it if the allies table was a little stricter about who can ally with who. Most Imperium being able to ally makes sense, as does CSM/Daemons but Eldar/Deldar doesn't.
Psykers are just going to get more important as the codexes turn up.

Grocklock
09-07-2012, 11:56
Strange that I am achually running 6 buggies and 6 kans so hp 2 vehicle are in my opinion are still great. Yes they are not going to dominate the battle field but YHWH still have a key roll to play

Ultraloth
09-07-2012, 12:23
Most Imperium being able to ally makes sense, as does CSM/Daemons but Eldar/Deldar doesn't.
Why not? They are the same race. They don't look to kindly on each other, but it's not like they're archenemies like high elves en dark elves in fanatasy. Craftworld Eldar see Dark Eldar as corrupted by sin and Dark Eldar see Craftworld Eldar as pathetic weaklings. Sure there are Dark Eldar Cabals who go out of their way to fight their Craftworld cousins, but since the Dark Eldar are also out to kill each other, that should hardly seem surprising. It's no stretch to think CWE and DE would band together to fight against a common threat. There's even an example of DE helping Craftworld Iyanden against the Tyranids. (If only to prolong this Craftworlds suffering.)

Athlan na Dyr
09-07-2012, 12:39
Orks, Ultraloth, but yes. DE and the Craftworlders are not polar opposites in the same fashion as Chaos Marines and Space Marines.

Predictions:
> Weeks of nerd rage whilst everyone complains about every changed rule in the book, whether its fliers, Allies, Hull points, power weapons, psykers...
> Weeks of flaming Ward for some obscure part of the background or the suprising fact (that none of us knew about) that the mans 5th Ed codices are really, really strong.
> Weeks of decrying GW for trying to sell us new stuff (corporate bastards that they are).
> Eventually everything settles down and we realise its not as bad as we first thought.

In actuality, I think full mech is going to become far rarer. The meta will shift to dealing with more infantry focussed lists, and then mech will make a comeback (though not to the same extent as before). To be perfectly honest, I think that the changes in sixth will cause the divergenace between the number of infantry armies and the number of vehicle ones will reduce.

Ever the optomist :shifty:

Bartali
09-07-2012, 12:41
Why do people keep forgetting about cover when discussing vehicle survivability ?

Transports will now almost always have a 5+ cover save. It took roughly 9 missiles to wreck/destroy AV11 without a cover save in 5th. In 6th with a 5+ cover save, it again takes about 9 missiles to wreck/destroy.

What the 6th ed rules do is dissuade transport parking lots with troops staying embarked. They encourage greater vehicle movement with the boosts to speed and shooting on the move, whilst also encouraging troops to disembark for objectives and providing cover saves to their transport.

Gaargod
09-07-2012, 12:43
pretty sure you are just trolling but on the chance that you arent;
1. who ever has the better firepower will nail the others vehicles turn 1 or 2. not sure what your point was. maybe just trying to pick holes that arent there.

Pretty sure Daedalus meant that, say, one side has masses of firepower and shoots down the other side's vehicles. Their own vehicles are now still alive, aren't they?


2. termis have always been more cheaply and reliably killed by volumes of str4 fire than 1 or 2 high powered AP1 or 2 shots. for the price of a demolisher you can get about 15 ish necron warriors. rapid fire = 30 shots = 15 wounds = 2.5 dead termis. a demol round would be lucky to catch 4 termies in the blast. wound 4 kill say 2 in 5+ cover at night +1 save or 2 or 3 with a 5+ invul save. massed bolters can deal with hordes and termis. whereas trying to whittle away a termi with a single melta per squad will leave you open to assault. an IG grenade launcher is more maneurverable and will readily remove hull points from a rhino from 24in away not 12.

Your maths is slightly off there, as you forgot the 'to hit' rolls. 15 warriors deals 20 hits, 10 wounds, 1.67 termies dead. Also, as you then point out about the problems with range, those rapid firing necron warriors are now within 12" of that terminator unit. Most terminator units will beat the 7 levels of crap out of necron warriors in combat, overwatch be damned. Sure, you can combine multiple units to do so, but then so can your opponent.
Moreover, it's not "trying to whittle away a termi with a single melta per squad". It's IG vets with 3 plasma guns per squad, or DE Ravagers firing 9 Disintegrator shots, or whatever. Sure, SM squads may only have 1 or 2 special weapons, but they're not anti-terminator, are they?


3. actually lance is not a very common rule per army. sure DE and nids have it but the platform for DE is now incredibly fragile and zoanthropes need to be very close. i see AV14 starting to stand out again as quite survivable once people take higher volume AT like autocannon.

Well... Dunno about that. DE have always been glass cannons - it's just now other people have been brought down to a similar level! Besides which, the point was that you could take 15+ S8 Ap2 Lances if you felt like it. They probably won't as there's no massive need any more, but even a few can screw over your land raider. Wyches with haywire grenades will kill basically any tank in a turn (9 haywire grenades hitting on 3s...). As it happens, Zoanthropes have an 18" range, hardly 'very close'. Dunno if they'll actually be taken, but that's besides the point. Oh, and don't forget Eldar could theoretically taken Bright Lances (they won't, as they're crazy overpriced), and they'll definitely still be taking Fire Dragons.
Av14 may get more common, but they're still too rock-paper-scissors I feel to be very common - the above armies, IG (vendettas, mass high S fire), Necrons (gauss, doomrays), GK (psycannons and vindicares still work) all can deal with them fairly happily. Ironically, the more common they get, the more people will take the paper to their rock!


4. i said all vehicles bar flyers will die in the first turn. flyers must be in reserves 1st turn... please read the book before you try and pick holes in a post. makes you look worse for it. i will spell it out for you. with all flyer transports bar the night scythe if they crash its a high strength no armour save test for all passengers when it crashes. easy way to lose a lot of models.

Ereshkigal
09-07-2012, 12:56
So let's think:
1 - HP2 vehicles like venoms are going to disappear because they are too fragile
2 - With the disappearence of fragile transports infantry will rise, melta get dropped and we will see an increase of plasma weapons
3 - Thanks to the mass infantry to deal with those effectively ppl will start to pack anti infantry weapons and they will try to protect their infantry
4 - To protect infantry ppl will start to take transports and fragile vehicles packed with anti infantry (like venoms).
5 - To deal against that much anti infantry packed on vehicles, we will see a rise in heavy hitting vehicles who can't be threatened by anti infantry vehicles and meltas.
6 - Profit

:D

A gk against me (de) tried a footslogging army. He got decimated by turn 3 thanks to my venoms... all has changed but nothing is really changed (until new codices).

mughi3
09-07-2012, 13:19
They encourage greater vehicle movement with the boosts to speed and shooting on the move,
Actually it encourages just the opposite. sure cheap transports will charge froward, 35 point rhino or drop pod if it delivers the cargo it did its job. big things that have range are going to be hugging terrain and not hardly moving because they need to hug the terrain to get any kind of cover they can since they are made out of paper now with the HP rules. unless infantry get to close then they will move since CC against vehicles now is a death sentence for the vehicle.

Radium
09-07-2012, 13:34
my predictions are a bit less concrete...

i expect some codex writer (i mean you ward) will Drop the AV15 bomb soon... i think its inevitable. To be honest i wouldnt be surprised if Chaos SM's have a rare varient Landie with AV15.

i think also a certain person will fanny with the the snap-fire rule "Lightning Reflexes- some warriors have such fast reactions or are so steady in the face of enemy fire they may SnapFire with (insert BS2, BS3, Their Normal BS for the next three PA/SM books in sequence)

you know it makes sense!!!

im semi-trolling here, but i do expect this kind of thing to evolve...

This is what I'm afraid of as well. I'm guessing the next SM book will have a AV 12 flyer with Vector Dancer, as well as other special rules they really shouldn't have.

Bartali
09-07-2012, 14:24
Actually it encourages just the opposite. sure cheap transports will charge froward, 35 point rhino or drop pod if it delivers the cargo it did its job. big things that have range are going to be hugging terrain and not hardly moving because they need to hug the terrain to get any kind of cover they can since they are made out of paper now with the HP rules. unless infantry get to close then they will move since CC against vehicles now is a death sentence for the vehicle.

Two different things here. Transports (Rhinos, Razors, Chimeras etc) will push on as I described earlier. Fire support tanks such as Preds and Russes will still be hugging terrain as in 5th