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Ghostbear_100
09-07-2012, 11:47
So, finally got my hands on the new rulebook, and was a little surprised by the rules for power axes (and by extension force axes). So they give an extra point of strength, and have better ap than the other ccw's, but, in a serious shocker (to me at least), the wielder is reduced to initiative 1 for close combat purposes.

I dont have a complaint at a tradeoff for the bonus' these weapons have over other power/force weapons, but throughout the rumor mill, the tradeoff would be 1 greater strength on axes, at a cost of 1 initiative. Throughout the entire leadup time to 6th edition, all the rumors about the new CCW rules had be very interested, and this was a part of it. The stat win/loss of the axe rumor was very balanced. But this is not the tradeoff I was expecting.

I am not into the 40k for the gaming as much as the modeling aspect of the hobby, but I do follow the guidlines of the codexes, in order to be legal when I do play matches, and because I do like to challenges involved with designing a workable force, from army as a whole to individual squads. I am saying this so that people understand that I am not here to whine about something that I consider "broken".

But I do, with utter seriousness, wonder if GW's rule writers really thought out this aspect of the rules for axes. The biggest example would be the frost axe from the Space wolf codex.
For the cost, you get a +2 strength pw, that is AP2, init 1.
For the same cost, you can get a power fist, X2 strength, same ap and init.

Difference: 1 Attack lost with the PF.

Now I can't speak for everyone who plays wolves, but I for one would generally choose a higher str over 1 bonus attack, for the same point cost.

Now there are some points to be made where the Axes do have advantages. A normal power weapon is cheaper than a power fist, this giving a model/unit a cheaper option for a higher st/ap weapon than a PF, allowing points to put elsewhere in a list.

With some units, being reduced to init 1 might not be that much of a loss, while the greater strength will be a worthwhile advantage.

Some armies dont have access to Power fists or thunder hammers, and any strength bonus is desirable.

Note that these the the three most prominent "positives" that I can think of for the current rule setup for axe type weapons, but here is my biggest concern for the current rule setup:

The forces that will more likely use power weapons (in my view/experience) are the power armor armies (nilla marines, blood angels, Wolves, chaos marines, etc), and these armies have a distinct advantage in the initiative stat they have over other forces. I worry that people will not want to uses axes on their models anymore, because I know that I do now. I see having an axe equipped on my tac squad sergeant being a disadvantage over just a normal power sword, no matter the bonus' it may have over a sword. Even more son on a wolf lord or a SM captain, who have an ever greater initiative advantage. I worry that I will start reading about axes, where they are modeled in armies, being counted just swords, because I will admit, where I have them modelled in my armies, I would be tempted to do so.

So I am asking the opinions of the people who play 40k, both the serious players and the occasional players like myself, this question:
Are the rules for Power/Force axes a genuine mistake on the part the rule writers? I dont think it is a game breaking mistake by any means, but it is the one I feel the need to nit-pick about.

Harwammer
09-07-2012, 11:56
S6 AP2 kills T4 1W 2+ models just as well as S8 does. Sure it doesn't cause ID on T4, making it worse on FNP and multi wound models, but most of the time the +1A will be better, right?

Fenrisian Ale
09-07-2012, 11:59
This has been discussed quite a few times in sub conversations in various threads.

However i was discussing this with my local GW manager at the weekend, and he put an interesting spin on this which I hadn't considered.

As CC is fought in initiative waves starting from highest to lowest, and with wounds still being allocated to the nearest, and bearing in mind pile in moves, AP1 is not so quite bad anymore. You run your AP1 guys in at the back of the squad, deaths happen from the front, and when they get there i1 pile in chances are these guys inc power fists etc get to do harm as it is unlikely the rest of the squad will be dead.

I haven't tried the above out yet, and I still think a frost axe being the same points as a power fist is just not right, but it might not be such a big deal as i first thought.

Scammel
09-07-2012, 12:06
Chaos Termies love 'em. Being I1 hardly matters when the only attacks that get throught their armour are also I1 (unless it's an MC) and against most units they're just as effective as Power Fists, only 10pts cheaper.

AdolfHammond
09-07-2012, 12:22
This has been discussed quite a few times in sub conversations in various threads.

However i was discussing this with my local GW manager at the weekend, and he put an interesting spin on this which I hadn't considered.

As CC is fought in initiative waves starting from highest to lowest, and with wounds still being allocated to the nearest, and bearing in mind pile in moves, AP1 is not so quite bad anymore. You run your AP1 guys in at the back of the squad, deaths happen from the front, and when they get there i1 pile in chances are these guys inc power fists etc get to do harm as it is unlikely the rest of the squad will be dead.

I haven't tried the above out yet, and I still think a frost axe being the same points as a power fist is just not right, but it might not be such a big deal as i first thought.

This is a very good point - certainly for units with "hidden" fists etc or enough numbers to keep them out of the front line until thier initiative step - though small elite units aren't going to have the luxury of hiding thier axes out of the way as you must attempt to move as many models as possible into combat in an assualt, so without enough "ablative" squad members you'll end up in the front line.

Still - for guard etc its a very viable argument.

Narf
09-07-2012, 12:23
To be fair my space wolves now prefer rending to Power swords or Powers fists

rending is less stable, but strikes ok iniative, is ap2 and my attakcs on these models are d6+1 (2 on the charge) for 15 points.

to mix in with this i will still be taking chainfists for anti tank (do they still get 2d6 pen?) at ap2

Fenrisian Ale
09-07-2012, 12:39
though small elite units aren't going to have the luxury of hiding thier axes out of the way as you must attempt to move as many models as possible into combat in an assualt, so without enough "ablative" squad members you'll end up in the front line.

It can work to a lesser degree for small elite units too. For example. send the i1 Troupes to either the far left or far right of an assault, therefore for the bulk of the opposition the nearest "engaged" model will not be the i1. also for stronger elites, such as termies, they still have to destroy the model in base contact before they can allocate to next nearest model, this may also be enough to prevent the i1 from taking move than a few hits before countering.

Gaargod
09-07-2012, 12:50
I'm still on the fence about them. On the one hand, I feel I1 is slightly too big a hit - I'd have preferred half Initiative, as this actually takes their (expensive) I value into account.

On the other, if it had been half I, then power axes are the standout best choice. Even as it is, a lot of people are taking them over swords or mauls (which really suffer against MEQ), simply due to fear of termies, etc - and they're a damn sight cheaper than power fists. Consider also someone like DE, whose sergeants don't have the option for power fists, and are stuck with axe, sword or special CCW (i.e. agoniser/venom blade).

I'm still not sure, as I do think it's a bit mean and makes some stuff (Frost Axes) a bit pointless, but I hope they did it for the balance reasons.

A.T.
09-07-2012, 13:16
I'm still not sure, as I do think it's a bit mean and makes some stuff (Frost Axes) a bit pointless, but I hope they did it for the balance reasons.Just an anomaly from an earlier 5th ed book, Frost axes should have been left as 'unusual power weapons' with +1 strength and AP3.

Now init 2 would have been an interesting one - more in line with the closest equivalent weapon from 5th ed - the warscythe.

Voss
09-07-2012, 14:13
Difference: 1 Attack lost with the PF.

and about 10 points per model, which is significant as well.

Frost axes are their own little anomaly, as are several things in the SW codex.

Latro_
09-07-2012, 14:48
Made Kharn s7 against vehicles and a +1 on the damage chart :D.

So 7, S7 (+2d6 (14 average)) attacks with a +1 on the pen roll.... oh and he now always hits on a 2+

He is now one of the best tank hunters in the game for less than 170pts.

kench1
09-07-2012, 15:19
Made Kharn s7 against vehicles and a +1 on the damage chart :D.

So 7, S7 (+2d6 (14 average)) attacks with a +1 on the pen roll.... oh and he now always hits on a 2+

He is now one of the best tank hunters in the game for less than 170pts.

Oil for the Oil God :P

Reinholt
09-07-2012, 16:08
On average, given how much cheaper they are, I agree power axes have their place. That place is when you need a cheap alternative to a powerfist. CSM terminators are possibly a great example of this.

On the other hand, I agree it bones some of the older codices in weird ways. The Frost Axe is a great example; this is the nature of not fully updating each book for new editions of a game.

MiyamatoMusashi
09-07-2012, 16:34
On average, given how much cheaper they are, I agree power axes have their place. That place is when you need a cheap alternative to a powerfist. CSM terminators are possibly a great example of this.

On the other hand, I agree it bones some of the older codices in weird ways. The Frost Axe is a great example; this is the nature of not fully updating each book for new editions of a game.

It also screws modelling projects. My Pre-Heresy World Eater Terminator Sergeant, for example, has a power axe, because it seemed the most appropriate variant of a "power weapon" to give him... axes are much more World Eater-y than swords. Now he's just weaker than (but strikes at the same time as) everyone else in the squad who has a power fist. Ridiculous.

Charax
09-07-2012, 16:44
You can hardly blame GW for the weapons you choose to model onto your units, that's like me saying "I modeled my Plague Marines to have Flamers, now they're not as good against tanks as the ones with Meltaguns! Ridiculous!"

I'd even say Axes fit quite well, the fact they're specialist weapons means you get an extra attack, which capitalises on the Mark of Khorne. If anything, he's better at taking on things like Terminators than your power fist models.

theunwantedbeing
09-07-2012, 16:45
It also screws modelling projects. My Pre-Heresy World Eater Terminator Sergeant, for example, has a power axe, because it seemed the most appropriate variant of a "power weapon" to give him... axes are much more World Eater-y than swords. Now he's just weaker than (but strikes at the same time as) everyone else in the squad who has a power fist. Ridiculous.

I'm confused.
If it is a modelling project, why do you care about the rules?

MiyamatoMusashi
09-07-2012, 16:52
I'm confused.
If it is a modelling project, why do you care about the rules?

Because modelling and rules should be independent.

Modelling and rules WERE independent, until 6th Edition, when it says "look at the model to see what rules to apply".

I should be able to make a cool model without having to worry about the next edition will treat two (currently) identical weapons - power weapons - differently; as power swords and power axes.


You can hardly blame GW for the weapons you choose to model onto your units, that's like me saying "I modeled my Plague Marines to have Flamers, now they're not as good against tanks as the ones with Meltaguns! Ridiculous!"

Um... no... it's absolutely nothing like that at all.

It's more like GW saying "flamers now only have S1 if they're painted with little gold bits on the end to represent burnt metal!" Why should modelling or painting the same thing differently change the rules? And why would you think that has that to do with modelling two different things, which is a totally separate case?

Charax
09-07-2012, 17:00
the transition between 2nd and 3rd edition changed how every weapon in the game worked - Hand flamers went from "Kind of useful backup weapons with their own template" to "Functionally identical to a chainsword". If a new edition completely changing how a weapon works is news to you, you haven't been around very long

MiyamatoMusashi
09-07-2012, 17:06
I've been around 40K for twenty three years as it happens. Thanks for playing the "whatever n00b" card, though... I made it very clear why I found the changing mildly annoying, and your response has made it clear you're really only here to belittle other people's opinions, which I can't be doing with; in fact, I can't even be bothered to finish this sente

theunwantedbeing
09-07-2012, 17:07
I should be able to make a cool model without having to worry about the next edition will treat two (currently) identical weapons - power weapons - differently; as power swords and power axes.

Okay, so nothing is actually stopping you from using the guy in the new rules.
You are merely irate because what he is armed with doesn't work EXACTLY the same as before.

I know a lot of Space Marine players who are fuming that Rhinos can no longer move 12", pop smoke and then have the squad jump out and assault an enemy the following turn. They've even gone as far as boycotting Rhinos saying they are completely worthless as a transport.
The rules change, you have to live with it.

Or you can just not use the new rules and keep playing the previous edition.

Konovalev
09-07-2012, 17:10
Uh... Charax's example is spot on. The difference between an axe and a sword and so forth is quite clear. They [power weapons] are not the same thing. They might have had the same rules in a previous edition but an axe and a sword are not the same thing. The new power weapon rules are not as pedantic as flamers being painted differently.

I really don't think this could be any clearer. Here consider grey knight close combat weapons. Nemesis warding staves and nemesis force halberds are both pole-looking and force weapons. So why can't I just model the way I want? Because they are two different weapons with different rules.

micf2302
09-07-2012, 17:15
Because modelling and rules should be independent.

Modelling and rules WERE independent, until 6th Edition, when it says "look at the model to see what rules to apply".


You are ripe for moving on from GW my friend. Pick up some other game, infinity or whatever else that fits your fancy. Or work on your own system, but this is Games Workshop, the money must flow. If you are not ready to buy more terminators to remake that termi with a power sword, GW doesn't care about you.

Reinholt
09-07-2012, 17:18
It also screws modelling projects. My Pre-Heresy World Eater Terminator Sergeant, for example, has a power axe, because it seemed the most appropriate variant of a "power weapon" to give him... axes are much more World Eater-y than swords. Now he's just weaker than (but strikes at the same time as) everyone else in the squad who has a power fist. Ridiculous.

I think this is more effective as an example of the inconsistencies in rules sets than anything else, actually.

In C:SM, he's equally expensive and worse.

In C:CSM, he's cheaper and worse.

Huh.

I assume from your comments you are using C:SM for those guys. C:CSM would give you a different view.

Latro_
09-07-2012, 17:23
end of the day i don't think very many people are gonna not play you or have a huge problem if you REALLY wanna use your power axe as a power sword, if they do...
play someone else.

Scammel
09-07-2012, 17:39
Modelling and rules WERE independent, until 6th Edition, when it says "look at the model to see what rules to apply".


Whut? What game have you been playing? Surely not 40k, where Marines modelled to have bolters... have bolters.

Chem-Dog
09-07-2012, 17:41
I'm with Latro on this one, point to the Axes and say these axes count as power Swords. Until a new Codex rolls round for you and fixes the problem by allowing each option pointed appropriately.

hobojebus
09-07-2012, 19:27
Frost axes are a sore point, on the one hand you are still for the most part wounding on 2's and get an extra attack, but on the other for the same price you can get a fist thats much better against vehicles and will instant death most infantry.

When people build their models they had no clue this change was coming so if people dont like the rule change who else can they blame but the people who wrote the rules?

Chief Librarian Zypher
09-07-2012, 19:31
IMO i think a power axe is an unusual weapon, and definitely a cheaper variation to a powerfist per say. Its funny I had a guy run DCA with one axe one sword. he learned the hard way though lol. My thoughts on the frost axe is that it falls under the unusual power weapon ruling because it has something other than just 'ugh i'm a power weapon' in its rules.

Leth Shyish'phak
09-07-2012, 22:08
I like running a unit of 10 Chaos Terminators now, and while every model can take a power/chain fist, that really adds up quickly. A guy with a power fist is 40 points, while a guy with an axe is only 30. It really does make quite a difference; in my 10 man squad, I have 2 fists, 2 chain fists, 3 axes and 3 mauls. If I upgraded all the axes and mauls to be fists, the unit is going to cost an extra 60 points; enough for 2 more axe terminators should I so choose! And really, when I have 4 fists and 3 axes, I don't really need much help against 2+ saves or T4 multi-wound things.

So, the reason to take an axe over a fist is because its cheaper (when combined with a pistol, the axe is also better at wounding T4 or less as well).

Spiney Norman
09-07-2012, 22:51
You can hardly blame GW for the weapons you choose to model onto your units, that's like me saying "I modeled my Plague Marines to have Flamers, now they're not as good against tanks as the ones with Meltaguns! Ridiculous!"

I'd even say Axes fit quite well, the fact they're specialist weapons means you get an extra attack, which capitalises on the Mark of Khorne. If anything, he's better at taking on things like Terminators than your power fist models.

Sorry, but I think I can blame GW when they go and nerf a weapon configuration that was previously very good last edition. Lychguard are a prime example, I built 10 with sword and shield, but now their swords have been nerfed into useless I would give anything to go back 6 months and assemble them with scythes, but that doesn't change the fact that at the time, sword and shield was very much the superior combination.

Scammel
09-07-2012, 22:56
nerfed into useless

Y'see, this is one of the things that strikes me every time people start whining (not a word I use particularly often, but I think it's apt here) about the necessity of weapon swaps. The vast majority of the time, 'NERFED INTO USELESS' is usually something very minor like, I dunno, losing a single point of AP on a weapon and being unable to deal with a very small portion of the game's units particularly well.

Dr.Clock
09-07-2012, 22:58
In my first game of 6th, I accidentally confused 'unwieldy' and 'specialist weapon', resulting in my axes hitting at normal I with -1 A. I actually much preferred that trade-off.

In fact, that night, I reworked my Dark Eldar list to contain a good number of power axes, hoping to actually have something that could deal with 2+ armour. When I figured out that it would nuke my I, but let me keep extra attacks, I was... disheartened.

Still and all, I really like the fact that power weapons are differentiated now. I just wish Dark Eldar had some kind of AP2 option outside of demi-klaves and power axes. I guess I'll just have to invest in a dissie-ravager.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

RunepriestRidcully
09-07-2012, 23:15
Am at the moment modelling a thousand son aspiring sorcerer at the moment with an axe, the extra S is more then enough to justify it.

agurus1
10-07-2012, 01:54
In my first game of 6th, I accidentally confused 'unwieldy' and 'specialist weapon', resulting in my axes hitting at normal I with -1 A. I actually much preferred that trade-off.

In fact, that night, I reworked my Dark Eldar list to contain a good number of power axes, hoping to actually have something that could deal with 2+ armour. When I figured out that it would nuke my I, but let me keep extra attacks, I was... disheartened.

Still and all, I really like the fact that power weapons are differentiated now. I just wish Dark Eldar had some kind of AP2 option outside of demi-klaves and power axes. I guess I'll just have to invest in a dissie-ravager.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

check out lelith hesperax or w/e her name is the special HQ witch elf, her attacks ignore armour saves and hit at her own initiative :)

GodofWarTx
10-07-2012, 03:55
Where i find it most interesting is on characters like Astorath and Dante, who have VERY high initiative values, which is completely nullified with the rules for axes.

Any arguments for/against these named weapons being treated as "unusual power weapons" or "power axes" ? I'm completely undecided whats the right thing to do.

adreal
10-07-2012, 05:23
check out lelith hesperax or w/e her name is the special HQ witch elf, her attacks ignore armour saves and hit at her own initiative :)

Also, harlequins with kisses

big squig
10-07-2012, 07:05
This change from power weapons to power swords/axes/whatever is not something I'm very fond of.

Sexiest_hero
10-07-2012, 07:50
Yeah y poor Chaos lord has been wielding his mace of doom since 1998. After all these years I hate to cut off that weapon because mauls suck at ap 4. It's just gonna be a daemon weapon. But my chaos termies, oh god do they love power axes!

tr1pod
10-07-2012, 08:22
This also depends on your model config too. For example my Wolf Lord had an Axe and Storm Shield in 5th. In 6th I cut off ther axe arm and replaced with Power Fist because there was no advantage to an axe at all. I do not get extra attack because of the shield, and the fist is the same price as the axe.

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2012, 09:30
Any arguments for/against these named weapons being treated as "unusual power weapons" or "power axes" ? I'm completely undecided whats the right thing to do.

If the weapon has a name and it's special rules consist entirely of the words "Power Weapon" then you can model for advantage untill we are told otherwise.

That being said, if the character is famed for his power whatever, then altering it into something else because you don't want to fight last (or you do perhaps) just strikes me as overly competitive.
It's similar the modelling say....a wraithlord, crawling along the ground so he can't be seen. Technically legal but not really in the spirit of the rules.

Sons of Lorgar
10-07-2012, 09:58
I'm undecided what to count my DA's daemon weapon as now, it's the sorcerer staff from the plastic lord kit with both ends clipped, one replaced with an eight-pointed star with skull icon from the CSM box and the other end with a double power axe from two CTerm axes.

bad dice
10-07-2012, 10:03
It also screws modelling projects. My Pre-Heresy World Eater Terminator Sergeant, for example, has a power axe, because it seemed the most appropriate variant of a "power weapon" to give him... axes are much more World Eater-y than swords. Now he's just weaker than (but strikes at the same time as) everyone else in the squad who has a power fist. Ridiculous.

cheaper tough

borithan
10-07-2012, 10:25
Because modelling and rules should be independent.

Modelling and rules WERE independent, until 6th Edition, when it says "look at the model to see what rules to apply".

I should be able to make a cool model without having to worry about the next edition will treat two (currently) identical weapons - power weapons - differently; as power swords and power axes.Erm... Modelling and rules weren't independent at various stages. While as WYSIWYG is no longer totally (as a stated rule) in force, it was in previous editions. In 1st and 2nd edition various weapons had different characteristics (including power weapons of different types). Modelling and rules have by and large been totally interrelated, just for a while they haven't chosen to differentiate between certain models, and now they have started doing it again.



It's more like GW saying "flamers now only have S1 if they're painted with little gold bits on the end to represent burnt metal!" Why should modelling or painting the same thing differently change the rules? And why would you think that has that to do with modelling two different things, which is a totally separate case?No, it is like them going "Well, we have treated autoguns and lasguns as mechanically the same for 3 editions and now we have decided they are different again. To work out if you should use autoguns or lasguns, look at the model as a guide."

Personally I regard this change to power weapons as a perfect argument for ASM to return. ASM would mean power mauls wouldn't be a total waste of time for one.

boogle
10-07-2012, 10:51
Just out of interest what category would Power Whips fall into?

totgeboren
10-07-2012, 11:19
I would have preferred it if axes were +1S, Ap3 and -1I. Oh well. What I don't like is that for example IG, with their I3, are just about always better off with a power axe than a sword. But the sword is much more fitting to the theme. All armies with I 3 or less thinks axes are much better than anything else, because they don't lose anything from the I debuff, all armies with I4+ think axes suck, because a PF does the same thing, but better.

A bit late to do anything about it now, but I don't think GW did a good job on the axes at least.

adreal
10-07-2012, 11:23
I would have preferred it if axes were +1S, Ap3 and -1I. Oh well. What I don't like is that for example IG, with their I3, are just about always better off with a power axe than a sword. But the sword is much more fitting to the theme. All armies with I 3 or less thinks axes are much better than anything else, because they don't lose anything from the I debuff, all armies with I4+ think axes suck, because a PF does the same thing, but better.

A bit late to do anything about it now, but I don't think GW did a good job on the axes at least.

Xenos races that don't have alot of AP2 close combat options will also consider axes instead of normal power swords

Drongol
10-07-2012, 16:20
I remember, way back in the days of the change to 3rd Edition, having to dig around for some easily-broken chainswords and easy-to-lose bolt pistols for all my jump pack-equipped Blood Claws, who were previously armed with a number of Power Fists, Chainswords, and/or Power Swords. I remember having to take apart my likewise-equipped Grey Hunters, and finding a new configuration for my Wolf Lord, all of whom were lovingly, if inexpertly, modeled.

In comparison, swapping a sword out for an axe, or vice-versa, really isn't that much of a big deal. Sure, it's annoying, but you darned kids and your rock and roll and rollerskates and your fast food. Get off my lawn!

Scammel
10-07-2012, 17:04
I'm undecided what to count my DA's daemon weapon as now

You don't get a say in the matter I'm afraid, it's just AP3 as are all unique power weapons.

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 20:07
Frost axes are a sore point, on the one hand you are still for the most part wounding on 2's and get an extra attack, but on the other for the same price you can get a fist thats much better against vehicles and will instant death most infantry.

When people build their models they had no clue this change was coming so if people dont like the rule change who else can they blame but the people who wrote the rules?

I find this a weird one also.

I don't know about the other SM Codices but personally I think they should have dropped the Frost weapons to the same price as a Wolf/lightning Claw.

They should have also dropped Wolf/Lightning Claws specialist weapon rule as it has dropped in AP potency but still costs more than a power weapon.

This would have then presented a sensible trade off with Power Fists as they provide higher strength hits as opposed to a Frost Axe but cost slightly more.

There would also have been a sensible cost/strength range running from PW's through WC, FB, FA, PF and finally TH.

Ultimately the SW's fluff lends itself more to Axes than Power Fists and now I find myself in the position where a PF makes more sense. It's not a problem converting the models but I don't like it from a fluff perspective.

Eldoriath
10-07-2012, 20:56
I don't really see the problem here. If you don't want any axes in your army and just want power swords your opponent should be fine with you saing "all my power weapons are counted as power swords even if it's a mace or axe". Simple, clean solution.

A.T.
10-07-2012, 21:03
I don't know about the other SM Codices but personally I think they should have dropped the Frost weapons to the same price as a Wolf/lightning Claw.
They should have also dropped Wolf/Lightning Claws specialist weapon rule as it has dropped in AP potency but still costs more than a power weapon.A lot of this is space wolf specific - other marine dexes pay the same for power weapons and lightning claws, and the frost axe should have just been classified 'unusual power weapon'

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 21:14
A lot of this is space wolf specific - other marine dexes pay the same for power weapons and lightning claws, and the frost axe should have just been classified 'unusual power weapon'

By this do you mean +1 S and kept user Init? If so this could have worked but the where would it have left Frost Blades. It's a bit of a mess :)



Eldoriath
Re: So. Axes. Hmmm...
I don't really see the problem here. If you don't want any axes in your army and just want power swords your opponent should be fine with you saing "all my power weapons are counted as power swords even if it's a mace or axe". Simple, clean solution.

AT above mentioned the Vanilla dex pays the same for LC's as it does PW's. It would be a lot cleaner if they just dropped Wolf Claws in to the Power Weapon cost bracket in the SW dex and Frost weapons into the old Wolf CLaw cost range. It all then becomes clean and logical.

I am not all competition WYSIWYG anal but I would imagine your suggestion would eventually lead to conflict with those who tried to use it somewhere down the road. Eventually they would meet someone who would butt up against it. Strangely I can understand the point of view from someone who may object.

murgel2006
10-07-2012, 21:30
A lot of this is space wolf specific - other marine dexes pay the same for power weapons and lightning claws, and the frost axe should have just been classified 'unusual power weapon'


German Rulebook (translated): unusual weapons....."weapons which have their own rules".... => DS3
Besides the frost weapons already are FAQed and are OK

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 21:40
German Rulebook (translated): unusual weapons....."weapons which have their own rules".... => DS3
Besides the frost weapons already are FAQed and are OK

I am not sure on the angle of your first point so you will need to clarify.

Regarding the SW's FAQ. You are missing the point. Under the previous rules there was a clearly visible reason why you would pay 25pts for a Frost Weapon over a 25pt Power Fist. Now the Frost Axe has dropped to Init 1. That clearly visible reason has evaporated in favour of a Power Fist. The reason you take a high strength weapon is to increase your chance of wounding not for an extra attack as per the Frost Axe. Dropping the Frost weaponary to 20pts and the WC to 15pts makes more and more sense to me. This is also easily rolled into the SW's TDA costings.

hobojebus
10-07-2012, 21:50
Well typically we get our dex not too far behind DA, i suppose we just have to make do untill out 6th ed codex comes out.

I'd be less annoyed if i hadent just a few weeks ago equiped some wolfguard terminators with axes, i knew power weapons were going AP3 i was fine with that but the I1 kinda came out of nowhere.

Narf
10-07-2012, 21:53
ummmm we've never had our dex after DA... Ever!

2nd ed - first dex out!!!
3rd ed - after BA/guard
5th ed - not after DA, DA got one in 4th ed

A.T.
10-07-2012, 22:02
By this do you mean +1 S and kept user Init? If so this could have worked but the where would it have left Frost Blades. It's a bit of a mess :)To quote the space wolf codex "Regardless of what they look like, all frost blades or frost axes are power weapons that add +1 to the user's Strength"

No need to do anything more with them than the relic blades of the vanilla dex which are +2 strength, AP3, 2 handed - regardless of form. GW just seems to have been a little inconsistent with the new power weapons in places - gorechild is another example.

hobojebus
10-07-2012, 22:08
Hmm i'm clearly thinking of 4th ed codex then i stand corrected.

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 22:12
To quote the space wolf codex "Regardless of what they look like, all frost blades or frost axes are power weapons that add +1 to the user's Strength"

No need to do anything more with them than the relic blades of the vanilla dex which are +2 strength, AP3, 2 handed - regardless of form. GW just seems to have been a little inconsistent with the new power weapons in places - gorechild is another example.

I see where you are coming from now. Your suggestion makes total sense for simplicity although I still believe there is a slight costings issue at 25pts with this solution. It also makes sense than an Axe should have a higher AP than a sword. It wouldn't be that difficult or offensive to other Codices if GW made the slight costings change to Frost Weaponary. Failing this your solution is suitable.

Casper Hawser
10-07-2012, 22:23
Aren't any power weapons with their own unique combat rules just classed as ap3 using their own rules so it doesn't effect space wolves, grey knights and characters Dante, Astorth, Vulkan He stan, Kharn and the like just stay as they were except the Ap3 sucks against Terminators?

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 22:25
Aren't any power weapons with their own unique combat rules just classed as ap3 using their own rules so it doesn't effect space wolves, grey knights and characters Dante, Astorth, Vulkan He stan, Kharn and the like just stay as they were except the Ap3 sucks against Terminators?

As AT mentioned for some reason GW decided to specifically FAQ Frost Weapons. In the process they have made it more of a mess.

hobojebus
10-07-2012, 22:34
No SW FAQ lists frost axes as +2s AP2 I1 so its like the Power axe but +2 strength instead of +1 for power axes, so for the same kind of cost your getting a worse powerfist.

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2012, 22:40
No SW FAQ lists frost axes as +2s AP2 I1 so its like the Power axe but +2 strength instead of +1 for power axes, so for the same kind of cost your getting a worse powerfist.

Yes but it's not two handed or a specialist weapon.
So unlike the power fist you can get an extra attack with it.

Spiney Norman
10-07-2012, 22:40
Y'see, this is one of the things that strikes me every time people start whining (not a word I use particularly often, but I think it's apt here) about the necessity of weapon swaps. The vast majority of the time, 'NERFED INTO USELESS' is usually something very minor like, I dunno, losing a single point of AP on a weapon and being unable to deal with a very small portion of the game's units particularly well.

Losing a point of AP is a big deal on a unit whose primary role is to engage terminators in combat, it would be rather like a blanket reduction of dark/bright lance weapons to str 6, which would make them virtually useless for the job they are designed to do. No-one pays 45pts a model for a squad to take down tactical marines, the whole point of Lychguard was to be big hitters, they are now a mid range combat unit at premium rate pts cost.

I think the problem with power weapons stems from that fact that for whatever reason power axes are worth a lot more than crappy power swords, but cost THE SAME, which is dumb beyond words. OF COURSE people are going to model their power weapons as axes, why wouldn't you? Power swords are little more than glorified hand weapons now anyway and certainly not worth 10pts.

I think the point behind the nerfing of high AP cc weapons is that they wanted to make characters last longer, which is a fair comment, they were generally very easy to take down last edition, which lead to all sorts of ridiculous shenanigans like the rules for St Celestine and others where they get to keep coming back. Now most competant CC characters have a 2+ armour save and so will always get to strike before they die (unless fighting a dreadnought or Warscythe) whatever weapon they are carrying. Unfortunately is has had the side effect of making terminators similarly unkillable except for a handful of mostly unwieldy cc weapons.

Harwammer
10-07-2012, 22:50
Aren't any power weapons with their own unique combat rules just classed as ap3 using their own rules so it doesn't effect space wolves, grey knights and characters Dante, Astorth, Vulkan He stan, Kharn and the like just stay as they were except the Ap3 sucks against Terminators?

I wouldn't say a power weapon with the rule 'master crafted' is exactly unique.


Yes but it's not two handed or a specialist weapon.
So unlike the power fist you can get an extra attack with it.

I think you could take a fist with a second specialist weapon for the extra attack.

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 22:59
Yes but it's not two handed or a specialist weapon.
So unlike the power fist you can get an extra attack with it.

As mentioned before. The main reason you spend 25pts on a heavy duty Close Combat weapon is increase your odds massively of causing a wound not to get an extra attack you may never get to make with lower odds of causing a wound due to lesser strength. The trade off between the Frost Axe/Weaponary Vs Power Fist simply isn't logical in any shape or form.

adreal
10-07-2012, 23:11
Radical idea for space wolf players here, don't take frost axes, just take power axes. Wolf guard can take a power weapon for points listed or a frost axe for points listed. Frost axes are now relitivly pointless when compaired to power fists, so save the points and just say all frost axes are now (gasp) power axes. You get the ap2, you get +1 S and it's cheaper then a powerfist.

How is that hard to work out?

Sorry the only unit that can't do this is a lone wolf, he has power sword as his entry, not power weapon. Every other entry in the space wolf codex has power weapon I believe

Vassakov
10-07-2012, 23:28
From a purely fluff and modelling perspective, Space Wolf Characters with big scary Axes is what we did. Unfortunately, the new rules kind of make that not the right way to go in most choices for competative gaming, and whilst the people I play with are by no means WAAC players, we play very solid army lists. I tried a significantly sub par list for a while, wasn't much fun. Anyways, for Wolf Players the choice is pretty well a no brainer - Power Fists to Squash High Toughness, 2+ Save and/or Multi Wound Models and Power Swords for everything else. It's the fact that for a balanced list, Axes are no pretty well awful that I dislike.

Amusingly though, Logan Grimnar is specifically stated to be able to choose between a Frost Blade and a Power Fist, so he still rocks all kind of evil.

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 23:29
Radical idea for space wolf players here, don't take frost axes, just take power axes. Wolf guard can take a power weapon for points listed or a frost axe for points listed. Frost axes are now relitivly pointless when compaired to power fists, so save the points and just say all frost axes are now (gasp) power axes. You get the ap2, you get +1 S and it's cheaper then a powerfist.

How is that hard to work out?

Sorry the only unit that can't do this is a lone wolf, he has power sword as his entry, not power weapon. Every other entry in the space wolf codex has power weapon I believe

Not hard to work out at all really but the Frost Weaponary was meant as a special SW's weapons class similar to the SM Relic Blades but to a lesser degree.

Are you now suggesting we should give up on that category just because GW has made a little bit of a mess up. They may as well just have got rid of Frost weapons following your logic but thats not really the point is it?

There is a place for Frost Weapons. GW just need to work it out a bit better so it becomes sensible.

The most logical simple fix I can think of is they FAQ that all Frost Weaponary & Wolf Claws are reduced by 5pts in cost across the board.

adreal
10-07-2012, 23:33
Not hard to work out at all really but the Frost Weaponary was meant as a special SW's weapons class similar to the SM Relic Blades but to a lesser degree.

Are you now suggesting we should give up on that category just because GW has made a little bit of a mess up. They may as well just have got rid of Frost weapons following your logic but thats not really the point is it?

There is a place for Frost Weapons. GW just need to work it out a bit better so it becomes sensible.

The most logical simple fix I can think of is they FAQ that all Frost Weaponary is reduced by 5pts in cost.

OR take frost blades not frost axes........OR take power axes if you really need the axe, then when you get a new codex, it will sort itself out (or become a jumbled mess)

_Chimaera
10-07-2012, 23:45
OR take frost blades not frost axes........OR take power axes if you really need the axe, then when you get a new codex, it will sort itself out (or become a jumbled mess)

I see where you are coming from don't get me wrong but most SW's players/fluff lovers like axes and will look for a reason to take one. We also love diversity where possible. It's not like we would arm all are WG with Frost axes but the Frost axe vs Power Fist is breaking our fluff backs.

Why would I arm my Wolf Lord with an AP3 Frost Blade when I know he wants to swing his AP2 Frost axe around. All we want is a little reason that makes sense to take the Frost axe over the Power fist.

Edit - As an after thought you could easliy argue that SW's would probably be the most proficient chapter at wielding axes and should they be subject to the unweldy rule when using axes but I won't go there :)

adreal
10-07-2012, 23:53
I see where you are coming from don't get me wrong but most SW's players/fluff lovers like axes and will look for a reason to take one. We also love diversity where possible. It's not like we would arm all are WG with Frost axes but the Frost axe vs Power Fist is breaking our fluff backs.

Why would I arm my Wolf Lord with an AP3 Frost Blade when I know he wants to swing his AP2 Frost axe around. All we want is a little reason that makes sense to take the Frost axe over the Power fist.

Edit - As an after thought you could easliy argue that SW's would probably be the most proficient chapter at wielding axes and should they be subject to the unweldy rule when using axes but I won't go there :)

Okay I can see your argument, but the rules for frost weapons were that they are power weapons that add +1S. In 5th that was fine, now in 6th it's different. But a power axe in 6th adds +1S (like a frost axe used to) and is ap2, for ten points less. So when making a list, just charge yourself 15 points for a 'frost' axe (and say that it is a power axe) and go along your merry way still keeping axes on everything (bar lone wolves) ending up being cheaper so you can afford more long fangs or whatever.

Space Wolves or World Eaters I suppose, even Kharne is initative 1

hobojebus
11-07-2012, 00:15
Yes but it's not two handed or a specialist weapon.
So unlike the power fist you can get an extra attack with it.

Your missing the point since the change frost axes are not worth taking at all, If you want +1 str +1a and AP2 you take a power axe which is much cheaper you dont take a frost axe when powerfists are the same cost but are more versitile having both the ability to kill tanks and instant death.

DTWATKINS
11-07-2012, 00:20
Just remember, Khârn isn't forced to use Gorechild anymore. He can fight with his Plasma pistol at I5 and S6 on the charge.

Septimus Tancred
11-07-2012, 01:40
Makes me wonder what I should use Dante for in future skirmishes..

GotrekFan
11-07-2012, 01:51
Troop sanguinary guard? Death Mask? Hit and Run? His rules more than make up for the supposed nerf with the power axe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Draconis
11-07-2012, 04:47
Yes but it's not two handed or a specialist weapon.
So unlike the power fist you can get an extra attack with it.

You used to be able to get an additional attack if you took two powerfists. But my question is, whats the points cost on a frost axe compared to a power axe? is theirs the same price or cheaper? just better?

Ghostbear_100
11-07-2012, 05:02
Wow this thread took off.

To answer the last question, a frost weapon, sword or axe, is ten points more than a normal power weapon, and is the same price as a power fist. A frost sword is okay, adding one strength in close combat, whereas the frost axe, being an axe, is +2 strength and AP 2, but, being unwieldy, the wielder is reduce to initiative 1, which is my whole reason for being of the opinion that there was a mistake made with the rules.

Aluinn
11-07-2012, 05:47
I see where you are coming from don't get me wrong but most SW's players/fluff lovers like axes and will look for a reason to take one. We also love diversity where possible. It's not like we would arm all are WG with Frost axes but the Frost axe vs Power Fist is breaking our fluff backs.

Why would I arm my Wolf Lord with an AP3 Frost Blade when I know he wants to swing his AP2 Frost axe around. All we want is a little reason that makes sense to take the Frost axe over the Power fist.

This is confusingly stated. Are you asking why you'd arm your character with: A) a frost blade (AP3, not Unwieldy) over a frost axe (AP2, more Strength, Unwieldy); or B) a frost axe over a power fist (AP2, even more Strength, Unwieldy, Specialist)?

Well I can answer you in either case:

A) S5 is often plenty and you get to strike at Initiative, which if you have I5 as on a Lord is not something to be ignored; in fact it can make the difference between killing someone in a challenge before they get to swing or being punked by a random power fist sarge, and also enables you to go before non-characters (and even some characters; simultaneously with others) with non-Unwieldy weapons. Of course you could take claws instead, but the frost blade (sword, probably) gives you higher Strength, so it's hard to argue that claws are actually any better for the points.

B) The frost axe is cheaper than a hammer, leaves you sitting at a fairly ideal Strength value (wounds MEQ on 2+, insta-kills most Eldar and normal human characters), and gives you an additional attack if combined with any other ccw.

Also, IIRC Wolves have access to normal power weapons as well and so have the ability to save points by taking them instead; complaining that frost weapons are expensive all of a sudden is weird, because they always have been, and also because you always had non-frost alternatives.

I think those are absolutely sufficient reasons to take any of the close combat weapon options available to you; claws, fists, and hammers are all also viable of course. You're not being "forced" into anything, even if you're the most hardcore competitive player in the world. Terminators may indeed become super popular, but the most common model you're going to see on any table is still going to be a 3+ save Marine (and even more commonly, those or a bunch of stuff with even worse armor, as horde-ish armies are going to also become more popular). Beyond that, if we're focusing on the AP2 weapons specifically, axes are just as good at killing Terminators for their points cost as fists or hammers, and sometimes flatly just as good or better, and thus a bargain, e.g. on a model with 2 base attacks, where going up to 3 is a big improvement.

Example averages:

Sergeant with power axe and pistol vs. Terminator: 3 attacks at WS4, S5 -> 1.5 hits -> 1 wound denying armor
Sergeant with power fist vs. Terminator: 2 attacks at WS4, S8 -> 1 hit -> ~0.87 wounds denying armor

And axes are bad how now?

tr1pod
11-07-2012, 06:51
Maybe make Frost axes only "unwieldy" if you use them one handed so you can take a shield. Thus giving you the option to take them two handed and then not being unwieldy but then you are sacrificing your crucial 3+ invun save. They could have done it so you choose before you enter combat. It's nice to have options, makes the game exciting :)

This only applies to Space Wolves' Frost Axes.

Yes. Yes I play Space Wolves :)

Scammel
11-07-2012, 07:45
Power swords are little more than glorified hand weapons now anyway and certainly not worth 10pts.


Except they ignore the armour saves of 90% of the game's units.

Chief Librarian Zypher
11-07-2012, 08:15
Xenos races that don't have alot of AP2 close combat options will also consider axes instead of normal power swords

.... and that is why they gave that distinction between the weapons. modelling for advantage is a thing of the past. model for tactical gameplay now. by allowing some of the S3 races to take power axes give them a balancing edge.

and to continue by griping at the gripers, how many of you have power mauls modelled??? thats just as cheeseball but i don't see a thread about that. if you don't like it, then don't frikkin model it. if your opponent has them, find a way to get around it or lose to it.

the change in power weapons, especially the axe, brings a sense of darwinism to the game. adapt or lose.

Harwammer
11-07-2012, 08:34
You used to be able to get an additional attack if you took two powerfists. But my question is, whats the points cost on a frost axe compared to a power axe? is theirs the same price or cheaper? just better?

You don't need a pair of the same specialist weapon to get the extra attack. Taking any two specialist weapons gives an extra attack. Eg taking a power fist and a lightning claw lets you choose between +1A, shred, AP3 OR +1A, Sx2, AP2, unwieldy.

Narf
11-07-2012, 10:35
meh, to me it means that my WG TDA's now have 5th ed frost axes in the squads as soon as they buy TDA (power weapon is free, so free power axe) means i can save on Power fists or chain fists, and makes the unit cheaper whilst still having more utility in the game.

For characters, well i'll just make sure they are always accompanied by the WG with an AX :P the IC's will keep taking frost weapons/swords :P

Also MOTW in every unit of troops! (rending ap2, on initiative, d6+1(2) attacks)

Grimtuff
11-07-2012, 10:58
Except they ignore the armour saves of 90% of the game's units.

Whilst this is true, people are complaining due to the prevalence of SM armies and the fact they more than likely will have to deal with these 10% of units on a regular basis.

Ragnar69
11-07-2012, 12:40
Well typically we get our dex not too far behind DA, i suppose we just have to make do untill out 6th ed codex comes out.

I'd be less annoyed if i hadent just a few weeks ago equiped some wolfguard terminators with axes, i knew power weapons were going AP3 i was fine with that but the I1 kinda came out of nowhere.
I think we don't see a Wolves 'dex in this edition. We have been top tier in 5th (and I have missed it because I haven't played in 6 years :) ), I bet nearly all other armies will see a new 'dex before us. Probably not GK, 'crons and guard, but pretty much everyone else. And honestly, we don't realy need one. We might no longer be the top of the pile, but we are still competetive. The fliers could ruin our day though, but I don't think they will become as popular as everybody suspects.
I only took a frost weapon on a wolf lord (which I hardly used). It's modelled as axe for the look of it, and I can't think of a cool looking sword replacement as a frost blade basically looks like a chainsword. Maybe I just give him a power maul. Or something crazy like a maul AND an axe, leaving krak grenades for shooting...

tr1pod
11-07-2012, 13:14
After about 8 or so games in 6th, I can tell this; Space Wolves are definitely still top tier.

Spiney Norman
11-07-2012, 14:34
Except they ignore the armour saves of 90% of the game's units.

Yes, but that's the 90% that will be shot to pieces before they get anywhere near combat. I also think terminators and equivalents are going to become the backbone of many armies in 6th editon because there are now very few things that can negate their armour. SM armies are by far the most common, both dark angels and grey knights can take terminators as troop choices and the others can pack them in the elites section.

And in all honesty, once you get to 4+ AS or worse you don't need a power weapon to slaughter them in droves.

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2012, 14:52
Your missing the point since the change frost axes are not worth taking at all, If you want +1 str +1a and AP2 you take a power axe which is much cheaper you dont take a frost axe when powerfists are the same cost but are more versitile having both the ability to kill tanks and instant death.

Okay so frost axes, frost blades and power fists all now cost the same.
The Frost Blade is Ap3, +1 strength, in4/5 and you generate an extra attack from it
The Frost Axe is Ap2, +2 strength, in1 and you generate an extra attack from it
The Power Fist is Ap2, Double strength, in1 and you need a second to generate an extra attack

Frost blades are the worst, being "only" ap3 and a power axe is 5pts more and it get's Ap2 but unweildy.
Yet they are better than power swords as they are cheaper and +1 strength.

I don't see the problem.
You're all whiners who haven't yet got used to the new rules and the concept of NOT THE SAME ANYMORE.

Give it 3-4 months and nobody will care about this "issue".

Ragnar69
11-07-2012, 15:02
Frost blades are the worst, being "only" ap3 and a power axe is 5pts more and it get's Ap2 but unweildy.
Yet they are better than power swords as they are cheaper and +1 strength.

Huh? Frostblades are not cheaper than Power Weapons, they cost 10 or 15 points more.

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2012, 15:04
The FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420319a_Space_Wolves_6th_Ed_V1.pdf) says for wolf lords and such they're only 10pts, same as power fists.

And power weapons for those guys are 15pts.
I still don't see the issue, some weapons are better value than others...that's always been the case.

Ragnar69
11-07-2012, 15:11
The FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420319a_Space_Wolves_6th_Ed_V1.pdf) says for wolf lords and such they're only 10pts, same as power fists.

And power weapons for those guys are 15pts.
I still don't see the issue, some weapons are better value than others...that's always been the case.
Only if you buy terminator armor that already has a free power weapon :)

Draconis
11-07-2012, 15:18
Yes, but that's the 90% that will be shot to pieces before they get anywhere near combat. I also think terminators and equivalents are going to become the backbone of many armies in 6th editon because there are now very few things that can negate their armour. SM armies are by far the most common, both dark angels and grey knights can take terminators as troop choices and the others can pack them in the elites section.

And in all honesty, once you get to 4+ AS or worse you don't need a power weapon to slaughter them in droves.

And how is that? They'll still have transports and land raiders to get close to you. You aren't going to likely stop that raider before it gets to you and delivers.

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2012, 15:29
Only if you buy terminator armor that already has a free power weapon :)

Oh yeah....oops.
In anycase so what if the frost blade is now a less good option than something else?
Don't take one.

elmo23
11-07-2012, 15:44
What about Hurron Blackheart (CSM special character), he has fist and axe.... LOL. hmmmmm I'll use my power axe this turn... WTF... always use your fist and your power axe is just a waste of space.

Would it be legal for me to convert his Axe to power weapon, so I can choose which one to use?

rickie8437
11-07-2012, 16:22
i could have lived with them making Frist Axes ap3 but two handed, atleast then it would be close to realistic, at the moment a blunt object like a mace is faster to swing than a axe, im sure matt ward and co have never been in there local hardware store and picked up an axe and swong it around, then play with the hammers as there wives look in with angrey eyes lol

for me, my space wolves will be using blades and fists from now on, with wulfen rending as well.

decker_cky
11-07-2012, 16:55
Frost axes are the best anti-infantry weapon (ignoring instant death) since they add both strength (wound T4 on 2's) and attacks. That includes being the best anti-terminator weapon. They're still very solid weapons against most vehicles and monstrous creatures. Power fists are better against T4 multiwound models, and against vehicles. Overall...that's a pretty equivalent value, so the price similarity is justified. Frost axes don't need a discount just for being a 'signature' weapon - they should cost what they're worth.

Konovalev
11-07-2012, 19:31
Would it be legal for me to convert his Axe to power weapon, so I can choose which one to use?

I don't see why not. His rules state that he is equipped with a non specific power weapon. Convert him out with a sword, maul or what have you.

rickie8437
11-07-2012, 22:31
What about Hurron Blackheart (CSM special character), he has fist and axe.... LOL. hmmmmm I'll use my power axe this turn... WTF... always use your fist and your power axe is just a waste of space.

Would it be legal for me to convert his Axe to power weapon, so I can choose which one to use?

what is he FAQ as, a funky power weapon, ap3 or a power axe with int1?

Charax
11-07-2012, 23:18
He's not carrying an unusual power weapon or a power axe, just a Power Weapon with no extra FAQ, so you just look at what the model has

So yep, you can convert him to carry whatever you want (until the new codex, when I bet a lot of these now-generic Power Weapons will be renamed)

_Chimaera
12-07-2012, 01:10
Anyone on here suggesting that paying the same points cost for a Frost Axe as you would a Power Fist and that it is a viable option logically just because of the extra attack just doesn't compute for me.

The reason you take a high strength weapon is to make that wound/damage happen against higher AP/AV targets. The Frost Axe has a lesser percentage of making that wound/damage happen so why would you pay the same cost for it as you would a Power Fist.

Yes this is a Space Wolves only issue. Not just because of the costings but also in regard to the fluff. I can see non Space Wolves players saying whats the problem you have options still but A. we like our axes and B. GW haven't thought about this properly as there is no logical reason for the frost weaponary to cost exactly the same as a Power Fist. There is a cost niche just sitting a very slight bit lower than a Power Fist that makes the whole weapons cost selection more logical.

neko
12-07-2012, 01:35
Personall,y I'm confused as to how people are refusing to admit that trading in strength for attacks is potentially a worthwhile option.
It all comes down to what you want it for really. Killing terminator? A frost axe beats a powerfist - once you have 2+ to wound and AP2 there's no advantage to instakilling single wound models, but there is an advantage to the extra attack to kill an extra model.
I myself would take the powerfist, but that's because I prefer to trade in an amount of optimisation in exchange for flexibility. For those who like to optimise their units for a given task, I expect that frost blades will have their place.

_Chimaera
12-07-2012, 01:50
Personall,y I'm confused as to how people are refusing to admit that trading in strength for attacks is potentially a worthwhile option.
It all comes down to what you want it for really. Killing terminator? A frost axe beats a powerfist - once you have 2+ to wound and AP2 there's no advantage to instakilling single wound models, but there is an advantage to the extra attack to kill an extra model.
I myself would take the powerfist, but that's because I prefer to trade in an amount of optimisation in exchange for flexibility. For those who like to optimise their units for a given task, I expect that frost blades will have their place.

The problem is your not potentially going to just come up against Terminators. There are units/IC's out there with higher toughness values. This is when the Power Fist becomes the better cost choice as it gives you flexibilty to take on higher toughness units/IC's not just ones with good Armour saves. If the Frost Axe had a lower cost you may be tempted to take it to save on points but as it stands it's a no brainer for the Power Fist at the same cost.

elmo23
12-07-2012, 02:31
what is he FAQ as, a funky power weapon, ap3 or a power axe with int1?


the model carry power axe and PF.

neko
12-07-2012, 02:59
The problem is your not potentially going to just come up against Terminators. There are units/IC's out there with higher toughness values. This is when the Power Fist becomes the better cost choice as it gives you flexibilty to take on higher toughness units/IC's not just ones with good Armour saves. If the Frost Axe had a lower cost you may be tempted to take it to save on points but as it stands it's a no brainer for the Power Fist at the same cost.
So basically you're saying that like me you prefer the flexibility, even if it means that the model is slightly less capable at certain roles. This doesn't negate the fact that the frost axe is optimal for certain roles, and certain people will want to take them in order to optimise for those roles.
I've already seen people stating that 2+ save units are going to be popular this edition. If this does turn out to be the case, it would also encourage the use of the frost axe.

elmo23
12-07-2012, 07:00
Every new edition forces competitive players to adapt and change their army list. 5ed was transport. 6ed is flyers and 2+ troops.

Yes, 2+ saves will be the 5ed transport because the nerf of power weapon being ap3.

T10
12-07-2012, 19:00
Made Kharn s7 against vehicles and a +1 on the damage chart :D.

So 7, S7 (+2d6 (14 average)) attacks with a +1 on the pen roll.... oh and he now always hits on a 2+

He is now one of the best tank hunters in the game for less than 170pts.

I don't think so: 7 attacks sounds like overkill, and paying for overkill is a waste of points (I must assume Kharn is correctly costed according to his potential).

Harwammer
14-07-2012, 11:30
Frost axes are the best anti-infantry weapon (ignoring instant death) since they add both strength (wound T4 on 2's) and attacks. That includes being the best anti-terminator weapon. They're still very solid weapons against most vehicles and monstrous creatures. Power fists are better against T4 multiwound models, and against vehicles. Overall...that's a pretty equivalent value, so the price similarity is justified. Frost axes don't need a discount just for being a 'signature' weapon - they should cost what they're worth.

Pretty much exactly what I said as the first response to the OP. I'm glad someone agrees and I wasn't just being a(/the only?) newb :)


Anyone on here suggesting that paying the same points cost for a Frost Axe as you would a Power Fist and that it is a viable option logically just because of the extra attack just doesn't compute for me.

The reason you take a high strength weapon is to make that wound/damage happen against higher AP/AV targets. The Frost Axe has a lesser percentage of making that wound/damage happen so why would you pay the same cost for it as you would a Power Fist.

I think wounding T4 models on a 2+ is also a pretty good reason to take high strength weapons. In this situation the axe has the benefit of +1A (always handy) but is slightly less effective than the power fist against FNP / multi wound models (situational) on a per attack basis.

I think trading an always on benefit for a situational benefit is pretty decent.


It all comes down to what you want it for really. Killing terminator? A frost axe beats a powerfist - once you have 2+ to wound and AP2 there's no advantage to instakilling single wound models.
T4 models can take FNP against a S6 axe, but not a S8 fist... It's pretty situational but sometimes the fist will be better against T4 terminators I guess (depending on the base attacks value of the model, if it is charging, etc).

elmo23
14-07-2012, 12:06
Pretty much exactly what I said as the first response to the OP. I'm glad someone agrees and I wasn't just being a(/the only?) newb :)



I think wounding T4 models on a 2+ is also a pretty good reason to take high strength weapons. In this situation the axe has the benefit of +1A (always handy) but is slightly less effective than the power fist against FNP / multi wound models (situational) on a per attack basis.

I think trading an always on benefit for a situational benefit is pretty decent.


T4 models can take FNP against a S6 axe, but not a S8 fist... It's pretty situational but sometimes the fist will be better against T4 terminators I guess (depending on the base attacks value of the model, if it is charging, etc).

can you take FNP 5+ save and also take Terminator 5++ save? If you can't take both save then FNP is a waste on Terminators.

Charax
14-07-2012, 12:44
yes, FNP is the only save that stacks

hobojebus
14-07-2012, 14:42
You can always take FnP after a failed save as long as its not instant death, which is why powerfists trump frost axes, the extra attack is not worth losing a sure kill.

_Chimaera
14-07-2012, 15:11
You can always take FnP after a failed save as long as its not instant death, which is why powerfists trump frost axes, the extra attack is not worth losing a sure kill.

Absolutely and why the powerfist will be the go to choice. Which is sad because the Frost axe is very fluffy for the SW's and prior to the 6th had a logical place in the weapons spread/variation.

GW need to have a rethink on Frost weaponary and come up with a logical costing or go back to the drawing board on it's special rules so it becomes a balanced choice on price with the PF.

trigger
14-07-2012, 16:03
Axes will still stop FNP due to ap2

I think axes and frost axes will have there place in the wolves , just not on my 5 TDA WG with storm shields

Charax
14-07-2012, 16:15
Axes will still stop FNP due to ap2

What on earth are you talking about?

Page Reference, if you please.

_Chimaera
14-07-2012, 16:20
Axes will still stop FNP due to ap2

I think axes and frost axes will have there place in the wolves , just not on my 5 TDA WG with storm shields

Exactly! You will keep a couple of Power Swords, change a couple to Power Axes and maybe load up with a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer to have something more killy against high Strength/AV. No place for the Frost Axe in a SW TDA squad or anywhere else for that matter. The other options are just better all round.

Hopefully when the next FAQ comes GW will have had a rethink and come up with a sensible compromise to make Frost Weaponary a more viable option again.


What on earth are you talking about?

Page Reference, if you please.

It's page 35 and I think Trigger has missed the point of an Instant Death weapon otherwise he would have realised AP2 doesn't automatically bypass FnP.

Yodhrin
14-07-2012, 16:29
Anyone on here suggesting that paying the same points cost for a Frost Axe as you would a Power Fist and that it is a viable option logically just because of the extra attack just doesn't compute for me.

The reason you take a high strength weapon is to make that wound/damage happen against higher AP/AV targets. The Frost Axe has a lesser percentage of making that wound/damage happen so why would you pay the same cost for it as you would a Power Fist.

Yes this is a Space Wolves only issue. Not just because of the costings but also in regard to the fluff. I can see non Space Wolves players saying whats the problem you have options still but A. we like our axes and B. GW haven't thought about this properly as there is no logical reason for the frost weaponary to cost exactly the same as a Power Fist. There is a cost niche just sitting a very slight bit lower than a Power Fist that makes the whole weapons cost selection more logical.

I don't see what the big deal is; you take a frost axe for anti infantry/high T infantry/normal characters, and a power fist for anti vehicle/MC/high T high W characters. If you want a less effective anti infantry weapon for less points, you take a regular power axe for 2+ units.

You may not like the role GW have given frost axes, but it does exist, and pretending otherwise isn't on.

_Chimaera
14-07-2012, 16:42
I don't see what the big deal is; you take a frost axe for anti infantry/high T infantry/normal characters, and a power fist for anti vehicle/MC/high T high W characters. If you want a less effective anti infantry weapon for less points, you take a regular power axe for 2+ units.

You may not like the role GW have given frost axes, but it does exist, and pretending otherwise isn't on.

Why would you take a Frost axe when a Power axe is almost as good for the same role at less or no extra cost? Why pay for two different weapons when one will suffice for both roles and is more flexible i.e. power fist? People keep saying use them for different roles. Hopefully your enemy will be obliging and throw his forces at the correct weapon Vs his unit type or are you saying each squad should have one of each type of weapon at an even higher point cost.

Who's pretending. Can you point the post out. What are you talking about? Half of this thread acknowledges it is hard fact.

elmo23
14-07-2012, 17:21
Why would you take a Frost axe when a Power axe is almost as good for the same role at less or no extra cost? Why pay for two different weapons when one will suffice for both roles and is more flexible i.e. power fist? People keep saying use them for different roles. Hopefully your enemy will be obliging and throw his forces at the correct weapon Vs his unit type or are you saying each squad should have one of each type of weapon at an even higher point cost.

Who's pretending. Can you point the post out. What are you talking about? Half of this thread acknowledges it is hard fact.


Yodhrin has a point and he show you and you even say that PA is almost as good.... meaning that there is a distention even a small one.

Many people has pointed out that Frost Axe gives you +1 A and Power fist doesn't.... like it or not... there is a different.

Example:
ChainFist v Powerfist.... one is better at Armor... other than that...they are both the same... why pay extra 5pt for the chain?

Another example, Two new style of weapons.
1 - Power Great Hammer (needs both hands to use / double strength / I1 AP2)
2 - Power Combat Axe (Comes in pairs +1 A / +2 S / I1 AP2)

Your Intell report to you that there are tones of Savage Orks with no armor or Kans....just them Orks on foot or riding boars.... I'll take the Power Combat Axe for the extra attack...

_Chimaera
14-07-2012, 18:28
Yodhrin has a point and he show you and you even say that PA is almost as good.... meaning that there is a distention even a small one.

Many people has pointed out that Frost Axe gives you +1 A and Power fist doesn't.... like it or not... there is a different.

Example:
ChainFist v Powerfist.... one is better at Armor... other than that...they are both the same... why pay extra 5pt for the chain?

Another example, Two new style of weapons.
1 - Power Great Hammer (needs both hands to use / double strength / I1 AP2)
2 - Power Combat Axe (Comes in pairs +1 A / +2 S / I1 AP2)

Your Intell report to you that there are tones of Savage Orks with no armor or Kans....just them Orks on foot or riding boars.... I'll take the Power Combat Axe for the extra attack...

Now let me turn your logic on it's head.

If a Chainfist cost the same as a Powerfist. Which one would you take?

Polaria
14-07-2012, 18:31
Reading the new rules I'm actually happy that I got a mix of power axes and power swords on my sergeants. AP2 is really nice if you run into termies.

Spiney Norman
14-07-2012, 20:37
Now let me turn your logic on it's head.

If a Chainfist cost the same as a Powerfist. Which one would you take?

Clearly the chain fist because you get something extra, on the other hand would I pay extra points to upgrade a power fist into a chain fist, almost certainly not because the advantage is too insignificant and too situational so make any real difference in most of the game I play. Just out of interest, if you were writing the rules, how many points would you charge to upgrade a power fist to a chain fist? 1pt, 2pts, more? There's no way I would consider paying more than 2 pts, and even then I probably wouldn't because it's not an upgrade I would make use of most of the time. There is no way I would pay 5 pts, especially in a meta where expensive, heavily armoured vehicles are getting shelved because they can be easily glanced to death.

There are only a handful of vehicles in the game that cannot be very easily penetrated by a power fist (Monolith and Landraider are about the only ones) because most vehicles are A10/11 on the back, and if your opponent allows your chainfist to catch up with his land raider he is an idiot.

Yodhrin
14-07-2012, 22:45
Why would you take a Frost axe when a Power axe is almost as good for the same role at less or no extra cost? Why pay for two different weapons when one will suffice for both roles and is more flexible i.e. power fist? People keep saying use them for different roles. Hopefully your enemy will be obliging and throw his forces at the correct weapon Vs his unit type or are you saying each squad should have one of each type of weapon at an even higher point cost.

Who's pretending. Can you point the post out. What are you talking about? Half of this thread acknowledges it is hard fact.

Frost Axe has +1 Str over a regular Power Axe, and +1 A over a Powerfist, so I'd take a Frost Axe: on characters I would have given a Power Axe but I had points to spare, on characters I intend to primarily send against regular infantry, on unit characters who will be challenging T3 enemy characters, or in any other situation where potential extra wounds are better than higher strength. Once again, the role exists, even if you don't like it.

As for who's pretending, and point the post out? Read the flipping thread mate, a good quarter or more is people claiming that Frost Axes are worthless, that anything they can do power fists do better, etc etc.

Senbei
15-07-2012, 22:51
how many points would you charge to upgrade a power fist to a chain fist? 1pt, 2pts, more? There's no way I would consider paying more than 2 pts, and even then I probably wouldn't because it's not an upgrade I would make use of most of the time.

Y'know.... Once-upon-a-time chain fists were Str 10 with the equivalent of ap1. I think they were that way for 2 editions. I'd give you at least 5 points for that (simply because even Str 8 is wounding almost everything on 2+).

elmo23
16-07-2012, 13:24
I want to re read the rule for Frost Axe 6ed again to compare to Powerfist, but I don't remember where it was.... lol.

Can somebody tell me where the 6ed Frost Axe is located? From codex space wolves, FA is only +1S power weapon, where does it say +2 S, AP1, I1????

Thanks

hobojebus
16-07-2012, 13:38
Page 3/7 of the FaQ in pink 3rd paragraph on the left under logan grimnar living legend change, And its Ap2 not 1.

elmo23
16-07-2012, 13:44
Page 3/7 of the FaQ in pink 3rd paragraph on the left under logan grimnar living legend change, And its Ap2 not 1.


ahhh yes... the FAQ... damn it... I forgot about that. Damn... wasted 30min looking all over the BRB 6ed.

Narf
16-07-2012, 14:25
meh having played a few games now my GH load out has changed

10 GH, power axe, MOTW.
TDA Wolf Guard chainfist
IC, frost sword (rune staff weapon if rune priest)

It may just be a space wolf thing but hidden Power axes in GH are rather nasty as they cannot be targeted by a challenge, and if a challenge is issued my WG can attempt to deck the challenger, or let the rune priest/wolf priest do it.

For my WG unit i now run the following

3 TDA WG, combi-melta, power axe
2 TDA WG, combi plasma, power sword
3 TDA WG, chainfists (since MB are 5 points, and 1 attack I1, a chainfist is 5pts more than a power fist I1 more attacks)

Ragnar69
19-07-2012, 14:21
I think a fist over a frost axe on a wolf lord is not a no brainer as some suggested. I've done a spreadsheet and the axe comes out better than expected if you get the extra attack for multiple CCW. Granted, it clearly loses vs. T4 multi-wound (without Eternal Warrior), but how many of those do we face? Marine and some Chaos ICs, GK Paladins, Tau Suits, some Tyranids and Ork Nobs. So only certain armies have them and 70%-99% of those armies are not T4 multiwound. It it also worse vs. T6+, but again, we only encounter a few models with such toughness.

They are en par vs. T5, the axe doing 0.11 less wounds in the first round of combat, but the same in the following rounds.

FNP is only an issue with T4 enemies, as vs. T3 the axe also ignores it and vs. T5+ the fist doesn't help either. The axes does 0.55 less wounds in round 1, but only 0.37 less in round 2+. If this is really a big handicap I don't know. I haven't played for years and I have no idea how many T4 models with FNP are running around these days. I know that Blood ANgels may take some, but how many or who else I don't know.

But the axe shines vs. T4 single wound without FNP and T3 models, doing 0.56 more wounds per turn as a fist. And I think most of the enemy models should have this profile, or am I wrong?

Edit: Wolf Guard Pack Leaders with Frost Axe/Pistol suffer even less vs. FNP and T6 models than a Wolflord and they are even better than a fist vs. T5 models !

Conclusion: the less base attacks you have, the better the axe gets compared to a fist as the additional attack from the pistols matters more than strenght.

badguyshaveallthefun
19-07-2012, 17:13
FNP is only an issue with T4 enemies, as vs. T3 the axe also ignores it and vs. T5+ the fist doesn't help either. The axes does 0.55 less wounds in round 1, but only 0.37 less in round 2+. If this is really a big handicap I don't know. I haven't played for years and I have no idea how many T4 models with FNP are running around these days. I know that Blood ANgels may take some, but how many or who else I don't know.

Forgive me, maybe I'm just missing something, but an axe only gives +1S and you're only base S4 right? How does S5 negate FNP on T3 models? Don't you have to be S6?

Ragnar69
19-07-2012, 17:33
Forgive me, maybe I'm just missing something, but an axe only gives +1S and you're only base S4 right? How does S5 negate FNP on T3 models? Don't you have to be S6?
I'm talking about Frost Axes, they are S+2. But I think even normal power axes are better than fists for A1 Grey Hunters/Blood Claws.