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NealRC
09-07-2012, 13:04
Trying to get my head around this rule... is this correct?

Page 16: When a Wound (or Unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model from the same units within 6", he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt. ...


Let's take a space marine squad (3+ save) lead by a character with a storm shield (3++ save). In this case the guy with the storm shield is the closest model, being all heroic.


These models are all the same toughness. I fire at them with a bunch of stuff.

Example 1: I do 5 boltgun wounds.


All 5 are assigned to the closest model.


He could play this two ways:


a) roll the 5 dice on a 3+ save. Let's say he fails one. He can then try for a LOS save and he is successful. He failed the original save that save so some luckless lackey near him takes the unsaved wound and dies.


b) decide that he is scared of the bolters and try and LOS them all. So roll 5 LOS dice (and lets say is successful with 3 of them)
- 3 of the other dudes must take armour saves on 3+ and hemust take 2 armour saves on 3+. Anyone who fails is dead.


Example 2: I do 3 plasmagun wounds.

a) He could roll the 3 dice on a 3++ save. Let's say he fails one. He can then try for a LOS save and he is successful. He failed the original save that save so some luckless lackey near him takes the unsaved wound and dies.


b) decide that he is VERY scared of the plasma and try and LOS them all. So roll 3 LOS dice (and lets say is successful with 2 of them)
- 2 of the other dudes die (no save against plasma) and he must take an armour saves on 3++.




Is this correct?

Narf
09-07-2012, 13:33
it appears correct, though a better thing would be maybe not put him right at the front.

i see unit champions being somehwere mid squad, means you dont ahve to worry to much about LoS to start with but the option is there.

of course playing wound allocation shenanigans then comes into play with different armour saves etc (IE terminator WG, artificer IC's and such

NealRC
09-07-2012, 13:49
I've been re-reading this and the similar rule that is on the CC page and the more I read it the more I am inclined to think that the decision to use the LOS must be used before anyone rolls any armour saves... which actually makes more sense to me.

If you could do it AFTER your armour save (even if this meant that the recipient could not save) then you could have a situation where a terminator squad lead by an inquisitor in flak armour is shot with a laspistol, fails his save, decided to LOS and then passes the wound onto the terminator, who dies.

I cannot believe that this rule was intended to allow re-rolls of failed saves and so it seems simpler (and in keeping with the RAW in the assault section) to make the LOS rolls "when the wounds are allocated" (which is before the saves are made).

But it is still confusing.

Rick Blaine
09-07-2012, 14:16
LOS is used at the moment wounds are allocated. In a mixed armour unit, wounds must be allocated before saves are taken (it homogenous units, you can allocate before or after).

Reinholt
09-07-2012, 14:25
LOS is used at the moment wounds are allocated. In a mixed armour unit, wounds must be allocated before saves are taken (it homogenous units, you can allocate before or after).

This, basically.

After reading the section carefully, I think it works like this:

1 - Allocate wounds
2 - LOS
3 - Roll armor saves

In theory, for one wound models, this is identical to doing it after the saves if and only if the saves are identical. So in the example above, with plasma, you can't take storm shield saves and then attempt to LOS those wounds onto guys without storm shields (as the saves are not identical).

Or, in short, you can't take a better save and then pass a wound to a guy with a worse save (be it armor, invulnerable, or cover). After all, the Look Out Sir rule clearly states that LOS happens when wounds are allocated, which happens before saves are made. This does happen to be functionally equivalent to doing it after saves for 1-wound models with fully identical saves.

Latro_
09-07-2012, 14:42
Yea so basically all wounds have to be taken on him anyway as he is closest, the closest model keeps taking punishment until it dies. Think thats the easyest way to look at it.

LoS is on wounds not saves so think you were more or less right other than the saves bit. If you pass LoS a model within 6" takes the save (or gets none if low AP).
Having something liek a wolf guard with SS at the front of some long fangs is a good tactic, just take eveything on him as you dont care if he dies anyway.
IC's at the front who are durable can be another clever tactic in that you can:

1: do as above, take the nasty low ap on their better than grunt save
2: simply use the IC as a way to break the closest first. e.g. you are an assault unit so wanna keep your guys as close to the enemy as poss, LoS every shot on your IC (whos right at the front) passes on a 2+, you can then take the wound on anymodel with 6", so in that way you can fairly reliably remove casualties from the rear of ya unit.

either way the internet overestimates how effective this is, in reality it can be pretty risky for expensive characters.