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Leogun_91
09-07-2012, 16:28
Well I'm curious about how they look in this edition, they weren't very strong before but I've only played one game in this (I got slaughtered but one game is nothing to base your judgement on). So I wondered about other peoples experience and thoughts on the matter.

Lord Squidar
09-07-2012, 16:44
Well daemons got very many buffs from this edition. I have yet to play a game but I think overall they aren't as screwed as before. Bear in mind they are still not a point and click army, they have a steep learning curve.

Benefits:

Deep strike mishaps are harder to have and the table is more than generous now
Skyshield landing pad is almost a must have, automatic deepstrike onto it
daemons have the monopoly on flying monsterous creatures, the lord of change is now a flying anti tank beast of doom
daemons got fear for free, fail a moral at the start of cc and you become ws 1 vs them
fearless attrition wounds are gone, meaning you have to kill each and every single daemon to win a combat
lots of units with rending which is good since ap 2 weapons are rare, and rending can shred light medium tanks
flamers are now sick, don't ever charge them!!!
slaaneshi herald passes on hit and run to the whole squad, making it very mobile and killy (going to make mine tomorrow hopefully!)
the average cover save is now as good as our worst invul save
most importantly, our daemonic powers can be used on overwatch, so pavane a charging unit back, or turn one of the blokes into a spawn before cc
soul grinders are one of the few things with 4 hull points and have fleet too!!!!

losses:

plaguebearers are a bit less survivable now do to losing the ability to go to ground
blood crushers seem a bit lack luster now that they can't hurt terminators (i always see them as a daemonic terminators)
our anti tank is limited to greater daemons, which can be expensive. In low points games fliers will dominate us
still a few unusable units, like nurglings and beasts of chaos (although they are beasts and move faster now)
we will lose a few casualties to assaulting

Can't think of anything else right now but there it is.

oCoYoRoAoKo
09-07-2012, 17:58
Well I'm curious about how they look in this edition, they weren't very strong before but I've only played one game in this (I got slaughtered but one game is nothing to base your judgement on). So I wondered about other peoples experience and thoughts on the matter.

Weren't very strong? I would strongly disagree. But anyway, its a new edition so ill share what ive found so far;

The Upsides:
More forgiving deepstrike table - for an army with deepstrike as their sole deployment mechanic, the new table is a welcome change in rules. More oftnen then not you will be put back into reserve which massively helps unfortunate first-wavers. This brings me neatly onto...
The Skyshield - Given that our entire army deepstrikes, we essentially have a unkillable icon sitting in our deployment zone for the cost of 3 regular ones. For me, the jury is still out on this one. I can see its merits but as someone who never played with icons in the first place (outside wounds allocation for crushers), i would still like to be able to drop where i like as opposed to a fixed point. This is made easier with the better deepstrike table (as mentioned above)
Removal of No-Retreat Rules - This is great for our tarpit and more fragile units in combat. Thanks to the 5++ its actually quite hard to wipe out a sizeable daemonic in one or two rounds of combat.
Fear - Though it has no effect on some of the armies in game (space marines im looking at you), its a nice bonus that all of our units essentially get for free.
Flying Monstrous Creatures - Now there is a point in us paying 60 points for wings. Barring Tyranids, we have access to pretty much all of the Flying Monstrous Creatures in the game. This not only makes our princes/bloodthirsters/LOC better value for points but also keeps our otherwise costly units better protected during the battle.
Rending - Due to the change in AP of power-weapons, rending is now much more useful. Luckily we have ample sources in Daemonettes, Seekers (now cavalry) and our still excellent Fiends.
Vehicle Destroying - Now far easier. With smash on the MCs hiting at S10 with AP2 and Bolt of Tzeentch at S8 AP1 (!), our anti tank has only got better. Flamers now can destroy vehicles with their glancing hits which makes the situation even better.

The Downsides:
Wounds Allocation - Ignore this if Bloodcrushers arent your thing. In the previous edition, Bloodcrushers were THE elites slot to take. They were tough and with wounds allocation would last a long time. With the current changes, they arent nearly so surviverable.
Power Weapons - A second blow for the crushers. Their weapons are now AP3 which means that they cant walk through terminators like they used to and they gain no benefits on the vehicle damage table either due to no AP1/2.
Fearless - Fearless means that our holding units can no longer hide behind cover. Combined with the Feel-No-Pain decrease to a 5+ you will see your plaguebearers dieing more often to small arms fire. Also, we are unable to run from units that we cant hurt meaning that we have to sit there and scratch the paint off those dreadnoughts all day. Combo this downside with...
S&P Means no Running - Not good if you were a GUO fan (which i was). His defenses have gone down to a 4++/5+FNP and with the removal of run for him and his smaller friends, he wont be getting into combat any time soon.
Snap Shots - Due to being mainly a CC list, we suffer here as every time we charge in the opponent will have an opportunity to do some wounds. Ive lost a bloodthirster to this one already.


Overall though, I think that they are slightly better off. Losts that worked in the last edition probably wont be so effective in this one so Daemon players will have to come up with some new tricks. However, considering you are a new daemon player, this wont be a problem for you.

Leogun_91
09-07-2012, 18:16
Overall though, I think that they are slightly better off. Losts that worked in the last edition probably wont be so effective in this one so Daemon players will have to come up with some new tricks. However, considering you are a new daemon player, this wont be a problem for you.Never said I was a new daemon player, started the army (as well as 40k) when the daemon codex came. I'm not a new daemon player, I just don't tend to win with them.

ihavetoomuchminis
09-07-2012, 18:16
What Lord Squidar said (didn't thought about the Slaaneshi herald thing....thank you ;) ) and...

Tzeentch Screamers are now one of the best anti-tank unit. They fly, so they are fast, and come with melta-bombs, wich hit always on 3+ or auto-hit (not against Dreadnoughts, but who cares, that's what DP's are for).

Lord Squidar
09-07-2012, 18:30
my mistake about the beasts of nurgle. They are still infantry, but slow and purposeful means they move 6 with no run. Its still a speed upgrade in my books, since it used to be d6 with a run.

One other disadvantage. No grenades at all. Our grenades have been FAQed to be special powers. Your average frag grenade and the like do soooo much more in the new edition (clearing out buildings, assaulting barricades etc), so we miss out completely on this.

Just did up a slaaneshi herald on army builder. It has unholy might, soporific musk and daemonic gaze. I've left it on foot so it can join daemonettes, and also cavalry can't assault into higher levels of ruins! This build gives you 5 WS 5 str 4 attacks with rending at init 7, plus an ap3 shooting attack before the combat starts (remember running and assault dont mix any more and fleet is something different). I think its a pretty good buff to one of our new shock troop choices =)

Leogun_91
09-07-2012, 18:54
What Lord Squidar said (didn't thought about the Slaaneshi herald thing....thank you ;) ) and...

Tzeentch Screamers are now one of the best anti-tank unit. They fly, so they are fast, and come with melta-bombs, wich hit always on 3+ or auto-hit (not against Dreadnoughts, but who cares, that's what DP's are for).As long as you take them in small units, only one screamer may use it's melta bomb each turn.

ihavetoomuchminis
09-07-2012, 19:42
As long as you take them in small units, only one screamer may use it's melta bomb each turn.

Even in Close combat? must have lost this part....

AngelofSorrow
09-07-2012, 19:43
Uh..... Why is that?
The one grenade use per squad only effects throwing them if I remember right.


Ready for eternal war!

Vedar
09-07-2012, 19:56
I've yet to play a game of 6th, but I'm not sure where we will land either right now.

The almost unkillable crusher unit is less scary, which I used as a distraction unit to let other things close in.

Shooting got a big boost. Not what we want. Rapid fire on the move at 24" means we are going to get peppered even more.

I almost never took wings, but now I might have to.

PB holding objectives got tougher, might have to take more than 5 in a squad.

Over all I'd say it does not look good. We need to spend more points on wings and scoring units which mean less of other things and we are going to take more fire before get to grips with the enemy.

oCoYoRoAoKo
09-07-2012, 21:07
Never said I was a new daemon player, started the army (as well as 40k) when the daemon codex came. I'm not a new daemon player, I just don't tend to win with them.

Apologies. I guess i misread your initial post. Turned 'this' into 'last' :P

On the subject of screamers and melta bombs, you can only throw one grenade per unit in the shooting phase (pg61). As you cant throw melta-bombs anyway, the cc phase is free game.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-07-2012, 21:08
The sheer ease of destroying vehicles in close combat is going to be a significant boost for Daemons, I think, unless the meta shifts more than I'm expecting, which is possible.

AngelofSorrow
09-07-2012, 21:12
I just can't wait to shove my screamers down the throat of enemy monstrous creatures.


Ready for eternal war!

djhowitzer
09-07-2012, 21:27
i think screamers are going to be the go-to item for many players. i have a buddy plays chaos and i used to beat him in non-apoc games more than i lost with my eldar cos i could just stay in my tanks and ignore him. and zoom off to the other side of the table to play him on unit at a time. not an option for me now.

Cheeslord
09-07-2012, 21:35
Can screamers move in the shooting phase now? Previously I failed with them a bit because they remained bunched up when deepstriking and got blasted. it would be good to think they are now a credible threat...

got to be something to compensate for the khorne daemons rubber swords that humorously bounce off terminators heads. At least we still have Breath of Chaos to hit them with.

I havent got the rules yet ... just hoping we are not as helpless against flyers as people seem to be posting. is it going to be a matter of having to take allies and buildings to be able to attack them?

Mark.

CrownAxe
09-07-2012, 21:51
Bike turbo boosting is done in the shooting phase so screamers can deep strike and zoom 24" being jetbikes

Chem-Dog
09-07-2012, 22:13
daemons have the monopoly on flying monsterous creatures, the lord of change is now a flying anti tank beast of doom

I'm sorry, I really don't understand the excitement about FMC's, far as I can tell, turning winged MC Daemons into MFC's makes them less capable, with a slow turn and limited ability to attack. I will happily receive enlightenment, but until it's explained to me, I'm happy the KoS doesn't have any intention of doing a budgie impression.


cavalry can't assault into higher levels of ruins!

Not disagreeing here, but I need a page ref, I read through the buildings stuff last week and I don't remember seeing it then and it's not mentioned in the Cavalry entry in the unit types section (Pg48)?



On the subject of screamers and melta bombs, you can only throw one grenade per unit in the shooting phase (pg61). As you cant throw melta-bombs anyway, the cc phase is free game.

Well, one attack each.

Mushkilla
09-07-2012, 22:29
Just did up a slaaneshi herald on army builder. It has unholy might, soporific musk and daemonic gaze.

I would recommend dropping demonic gaze for transfixing gaze, BS3 deaminic is not worth it however transfixing is amazing this edition with challenges, reducing and opponents attack by one is huge, in terms of making your herald more survivable. :)

Charistoph
09-07-2012, 23:17
daemons have the monopoly on flying monsterous creatures, the lord of change is now a flying anti tank beast of doom


Not true, 'Nids can field just as many in a FOC (Tyrants and Harpies), Daemons just have more options to choose from (4 Greater Daemons and the Prince).

I know quite a few people are looking to use them as Allies, especially a certain Nurgle Herald...

camulus316
10-07-2012, 00:30
I thought wings only add 'Jump' to a unit, not Flight. I think only a Bloodthirster and Lord of Change are actual Flying Monstrous Creatures for Deamons making Tyranids the preeminent Flying Monstrous Creature army.

jbennie
10-07-2012, 00:33
Daemons have "Daemonic Flight" not wings, so the princes are FMC's.

Chem-Dog
10-07-2012, 00:47
Not true, 'Nids can field just as many in a FOC (Tyrants and Harpies), Daemons just have more options to choose from (4 Greater Daemons and the Prince).

Only two of the four GD's have wings.


I thought wings only add 'Jump' to a unit, not Flight.

The FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420308a_Chaos_Daemons_6th_Ed_V1.pdf) says Daemonic Flight = FMC. *shrug*

camulus316
10-07-2012, 00:53
Apparently my eyes completely missed that. Nevermind!

Charistoph
10-07-2012, 05:30
Wings do only add Jump, but Heavy Support Chaos Daemon Princes don't have access to Wings, they hace access to Daemonic Flight. Marine HQ Daemon Princes are the ones stuck with Jump Wings.

Edit: Dang 2nd page ninjas!


Only two of the four GD's have wings.


True, but that's still 1 more than 'Nids. And let's face it, Harpies are rather defenseless compared to the Daemons.

Lord Squidar
10-07-2012, 06:40
@chem-dog on ruins and cavalry... Page 98 under moving within ruins: only Beasts, Infantry, Jetbikes, Skimmers and all types of Jump and Pet Pack units and move on upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can be physically placed there.

The mount also only adds 1 attack. I'd rather have it on foot and be able to assault everywhere than get an extra attack. I can see fire warriors sitting on a second level of a building blowing raspberries as you try get your steed up the rocky ruins

CrownAxe
11-07-2012, 10:06
Being on calvary also gives them Hammer of Wrath so they basically get +2 attacks for being on steeds