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jeffzcubfan
09-07-2012, 16:26
Hi,

I noticed on GW's site that they have updated the iBook version of the Space Marine Codex to the new Edition. Has anyone gotten any insight to the changes yet?

Jeff

Morkash
09-07-2012, 16:27
I try a educated guess and predict that they included the rules for the Stormtalon in the new version.

Odin
09-07-2012, 16:31
It will mainly be things like making sure they refer to "power weapon" and "force weapon" rather than specifically a sword or axe. Or in the case of special characters, probably vice versa. But it will be in line with the FAQ already released, I can't imagine they would have anything new.

Rob and Roll
09-07-2012, 16:50
I try a educated guess and predict that they included the rules for the Stormtalon in the new version.

The first version already did.

The updated version has all the new rules in the references (like shred for lightning claws or unwieldy for power fists). So it is completely up to date with 6th. Nice of GW to update it for free, although it should be for this initial price.

Starchild
09-07-2012, 17:01
This was mentioned in the other thread (this one will be closed soon) but to recap: If you've already bought the SM iBooks codex, delete it then redownload to get the update. Hopefully Apple will sort out a better updating procedure in iOS 6.

RevEv
09-07-2012, 17:48
Just done the above and now have an updated, 6th Ed Compatible, SM Codex on my iPad.

Thank you GW.

unholy1
11-07-2012, 09:32
Is it worth it?

Sophet Drahas
11-07-2012, 10:18
Huh. Stuff like this makes me consider an iPad and eCodexes. Is there any way to print the rules out?

Starchild
11-07-2012, 11:36
@unholy1: If you already have the physical book, probably not.

@Sophet Drahas: There is no way to print directly. However you can take screen shots, save them to a computer, and print from the image files.

Bartali
11-07-2012, 11:50
The big question of course - does the updated codex now include skyfire missiles as an option ?

Hendarion
11-07-2012, 12:50
It doesn't.

Badruk
11-07-2012, 12:50
The big question of course - does the updated codex now include skyfire missiles as an option ?

Same question here...
Will stop the debate once and for all!



It doesn't.

/end of debate

sayles78
11-07-2012, 13:36
According to updated SM Codex...

Relic Blade is Str +2 instead of the old strikes at strength 6.

Sicarius' Talassarian Tempest Blade - The str 6, coupe de grace attack is AP2.

It's a great product. Just bought the Necron one too, and that is also updated for 6th.

Warscythes Are Str +2, AP1 and have Armour Bane SR......... AP1!!!!

loveless
11-07-2012, 13:45
According to updated SM Codex...

Relic Blade is Str +2 instead of the old strikes at strength 6.

Sicarius' Talassarian Tempest Blade - The str 6, coupe de grace attack is AP2.


That's different from the FAQ on the website, isn't it? I'm not seeing any of that come up, at least. This could get interesting...

sayles78
11-07-2012, 13:56
That's different from the FAQ on the website, isn't it? I'm not seeing any of that come up, at least. This could get interesting...

TBH - I haven't paid much attention to the FAQ. I will have a look now though!

I know one thing for sure - ALL GW Rules products have to be on the same page - or we've got no chance at interpreting the damn things!

sayles78
11-07-2012, 13:58
That's different from the FAQ on the website, isn't it? I'm not seeing any of that come up, at least. This could get interesting...

Yep - very true.

Not in FAQ.

Will maybe make it into 1.1

tiger g
11-07-2012, 19:04
@unholy1: If you already have the physical book, probably not.

Disagree.

easiler than having the book, white dwarf for fliers and faq. All the rules in one place on one items. Especially when you play SM and your oponent plays Necrons.

Onisuzume
11-07-2012, 20:23
This was mentioned in the other thread (this one will be closed soon) but to recap: If you've already bought the SM iBooks codex, delete it then redownload to get the update. Hopefully Apple will sort out a better updating procedure in iOS 6.
Or better yet, hopefully GW will put out digital releases that don't require iSmeg products.

Theis
11-07-2012, 21:01
Yep, only thing preventing me from picking it up is the Apple exclusive platform / format, so far.

Beppo1234
11-07-2012, 22:18
The big question of course - does the updated codex now include skyfire missiles as an option ?


seems like a sound business tactic right there: don't provide a rule for ground based troops to fend off fliers, so that you need a flier to defend against other fliers. Once they've sold enough, then the AA rules and models will arrive

PaintHater
11-07-2012, 22:47
Is it worth it?

Ive got the Necon Codex rather than the Space Marine one, but I think as a general concept it's awesome. Particularly with the recent changes to things such as the Universal Special Rules, you can just tap on a rule anywhere it is listed as applying, and it will bring up the definition and specifics. It's the same with things like weapon profiles, no mid-game page flipping or profile memorizing. There is still some 'See page xx of the rule book', but they are for the basics like 'Jetbike' and 'Jump Infantry'.

MajorWesJanson
12-07-2012, 00:35
Once these come out on a non apple product, I will get them (and a padd to run them). Hope that GW decides to add army building software into the codex as well in the future.

Good to see updates this fast. And besides Marines, I wonder if GW is working backwards through the codices to get them digital. Also curious if CSM will come out digital at the same time as the paper codex, or later to encourage sales of the paper one.

KazenX
12-07-2012, 02:28
Once these come out on a non apple product... If only :( One of our local red shirts said they will be sticking with apple for security reasons (silly IMO I keep a pdf copy of the codices I own on my droid), and though the android OS market is large it is not as large as iOS there's not the incentive to switch to it. Hopefully the windows x86 tablet will be able to run itunes and my problem will be solved.

I imagine they are working back through the books due to content. I bet that the newer books have more digital elements that are easier accessed than the older stuff where they might have format issues and an lack of content in necessary formats and will have to do more work to get em show ready. Trickling out current books gives them a buffer.

Starchild
12-07-2012, 03:35
Windows 8 on a tablet will certainly be able to run iTunes but you'll still need an iPad to get the digital GW books. :(

MajorWesJanson
12-07-2012, 04:35
I imagine they are working back through the books due to content. I bet that the newer books have more digital elements that are easier accessed than the older stuff where they might have format issues and an lack of content in necessary formats and will have to do more work to get em show ready. Trickling out current books gives them a buffer.


Newer books are also generally used more, as the bandwagon effect does have some lag time to it. I'd expect say 1 digital codex a month or so, as at that rate, counting new books, at least CSM, DA, and Tau will get new books before they get around to making the old ones digital. That or they will only digital the 5th edition books, and wait for new versions instead of doing any of the 4th edition books.

Also, they could either speed up releases or drag them out more by starting to do digital fantasy army books.



Why do you need an ipad? iPad only for things like iBooks would be somewhat of a selling point, but porting it over to the new Windows tablet would let Apple steal some more market share for digital books from Microsoft.

KazenX
12-07-2012, 05:27
Why do you need an ipad? iPad only for things like iBooks would be somewhat of a selling point, but porting it over to the new Windows tablet would let Apple steal some more market share for digital books from Microsoft.

Apparently apple requires a iPhone, iPod, or iPad to view iBooks...this is unfortunate. Gonna have to run them on that iPod touch that I was planning on picking up... still a bit unfortunate though.

I do wonder if the recent wolfslair kerfluffle means that they might be releasing an integrated army builder to the books, would be fantastic and help add value to a digital copy that is the same price as the physical unit.

Glen_Savet
12-07-2012, 05:30
If they're only available on Apple products, they'll never see a penny from me for these.

Tebrey
12-07-2012, 06:03
Couldn't you just use an epub reader? I know windows has one.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-07-2012, 08:57
From what was said in some of the other threads because its an iBook2(I think) file it basically only runs on iPads. Not even on iPhone. Don't have any of the Apple gadgets so don't know, but I remember it being discussed.

nosebiter
12-07-2012, 09:06
The ecodexes are created using apple software, so i would not hold my breath in hopes of seing them on other platforms.

Azzy
12-07-2012, 09:19
From what was said in some of the other threads because its an iBook2(I think) file it basically only runs on iPads. Not even on iPhone. Don't have any of the Apple gadgets so don't know, but I remember it being discussed.

This. If you don't have an iPad, you can't use it.

MajorWesJanson
12-07-2012, 09:25
I wonder if someone will create their own Ibook2 reader.

Onisuzume
12-07-2012, 10:08
If only :( One of our local red shirts said they will be sticking with apple for security reasons (silly IMO I keep a pdf copy of the codices I own on my droid), and though the android OS market is large it is not as large as iOS there's not the incentive to switch to it. Hopefully the windows x86 tablet will be able to run itunes and my problem will be solved.
And what about all those folks with netbooks and the like?
Those are, in general, not apple products, and some come with android (mine has 2.1 or some such).
I got tons of pdfs on it from games that I don't (actively) play.
Not to mention all those FAQs and other update pdfs you got from GW/FW.

They should use BattleTech as an example and use a multi-platform filetype.
CGL still makes more than enough money on sales of both digital and dead-book versions.

From what was said in some of the other threads because its an iBook2(I think) file it basically only runs on iPads. Not even on iPhone. Don't have any of the Apple gadgets so don't know, but I remember it being discussed.
Until someone eventually cracks the security.

tiger g
12-07-2012, 10:23
The digital books are not pdf's.

Starchild
12-07-2012, 11:04
@Onisuzume: Cracking the security would be only the first step. The next step would be building a compiler to read the iBooks files on other platforms. That would require some serious low-level programming, up to and including Assembler code. :(

Sai-Lauren
12-07-2012, 12:20
If they're only available on Apple products, they'll never see a penny from me for these.
iAgree. ;)

Personally, when I do my army lists, I do it in Word and add all the rules, weapons stats etc that I need at the end, then print it off.

Codex updates I would guess will be done on those codexes that aren't going to have new versions ship any time soon, and likely in order of army popularity (hence Marines geting done very early).

As for Marine air defences, I'm sure it's not that difficult to go bits box diving and make your own Hyperios platform/pods.

Zabousta
12-07-2012, 16:52
I picked up the Necron digital codex and I have to say that I really like it. I am not an Apple fanboy, I actually prefer Android. I got an iPad when Asus refused to make enough Transformer Primes. I didn't want to wait, and thats how I ended up with an iPad 3.

The codex runs pretty smooth, with maybe a half second to sharpen the image. Its pretty easy to navigate, much easier than a PDF. Plus it comes with great pictures (more than in the book) and some extra stuff like each Dynastys colors and symbols. It gets updated, and is in fact ready to go for 6th ed. Most of the time you can click on the special rule and it will open a box detailing it for you, so less flipping.

I like it better than a book. Flipping through books is fast, but I find that the bindings go on GW codex pretty quick. I lucked out and got Necrons when they announced the iBook releases, so I just waited, and didn't bother buying a hard copy.

I would recommend getting it if you don't have a hard copy. Even if you do, its not a bad buy since it gets updated.

I run Numbers (excel) on the iPad, and have a simple army builder on it. You still need to fill in the boxes, but it auto calculates the numbers for you. It's pretty quick and easy to use, especially if you run similar lists in between games.

Vegeta365
12-07-2012, 17:39
Did they update the marine codex to stop terminators going in a rhino etc?

Starchild
12-07-2012, 18:50
:confused: Since when could Terminators ride in Rhinos? 2nd edition?

Vegeta365
12-07-2012, 19:05
Since the discussed format in this thread allowed it! An obvious mistake and I was keen to see if they have removed the error whilst updating other bits. If they have then they are showing how good this format can be for correcting future issues. These mistakes can not be changed in our books.

Starchild
12-07-2012, 20:18
Just checked the iBooks SM 'dex and it doesn't say anything about Terminators not being able to ride in Rhinos. I guess they'll change that later. :eyebrows:

Yodhrin
12-07-2012, 20:20
If GW insist on sticking with Crapple, they won't see a penny from me. I'd have to see some serious added value to warrant paying for a digital copy at all mind you(if I can make physical backups of my digital products, I should damn well be able to make digital backups of my physical products as well), but the features they're offering are intriguing, and if they intend to update the codices with ALL related new material, including any new units or characters made available in White Dwarf, I'd likely pick one up. But not on a Crapple product.

Ah well, I can always go back to making up a cheat-booklet for my armies, including full rules and a listing of weapons and special rules at the back, that way I only have to take my codex out and open it up when someone's being a tosser about the wording of a rule, and I can update the digital originals of that with new rules myself.

Glen_Savet
12-07-2012, 20:23
Can you get a relic axe?

Kloud13
12-07-2012, 21:05
According to updated SM Codex...

Relic Blade is Str +2 instead of the old strikes at strength 6.

Sicarius' Talassarian Tempest Blade - The str 6, coupe de grace attack is AP2.

It's a great product. Just bought the Necron one too, and that is also updated for 6th.

Warscythes Are Str +2, AP1 and have Armour Bane SR......... AP1!!!!

Does it say they are power weapons with +2 strength? Can you give us exact wording on Relic blades please?

Be nice for the big 2 Hand-ed Axe Relic Blades to be + 2 Strength on top of +1 for being an axe.

Azzy
12-07-2012, 21:14
If they're only available on Apple products, they'll never see a penny from me for these.

Agreed. I've made my own "digital codex" for my army (with all the errata and updates included) using Word. I can has hyperlinks, too, and it works nicely on my netbook.

cable1210
12-07-2012, 21:43
Did they update the marine codex to stop terminators going in a rhino etc?

Check main rule book, page 78. That should clear that up

Dangersaurus
12-07-2012, 22:07
Can you get a relic axe?

You can get a relic hat, but the rules stay the same.

Purge the Heretic
12-07-2012, 22:33
Make sure its a bowler ala oddjob.

MajorWesJanson
14-07-2012, 01:35
Relic blades fall under the unusual power weapons, so keep the +2 strength and no extra attack rules. Statline above simplifies that.

Kloud13
14-07-2012, 17:03
Would have been nice if GW had done something with them proper as Relic Blades are described as 2- handed Axes, and Swords.

Vegeta365
14-07-2012, 18:05
Check main rule book, page 78. That should clear that up

At no point do I expect anyone reading my comment actually thought that I thought terminators could ride in a rhino. I was merely pointing out that when they do was fed back to them on release day by a number of people so they should have been aware.ne the original port of the book over to apple that they made this error as it lists the terminators options as being able to buy a rhino for them as a transport. They have done all these nice 6th edition updates but still missed something so crucially wrong and missleading! It was fedback to them on release day so they should be aware. And whilst we all know terminators can't ride in a rhino, I believe people could argue that the codex trumps the rulebook page you listed :P

Mini77
14-07-2012, 18:45
They have done all these nice 6th edition updates but still missed something so crucially wrong and missleading! It was fedback to them on release day so they should be aware.

It was fixed.

ForgottenLore
14-07-2012, 18:58
At no point do I expect anyone reading my comment actually thought that I thought terminators could ride in a rhino. I was merely pointing out that when they do was fed back to them on release day by a number of people so they should have been aware.ne the original port of the book over to apple that they made this error as it lists the terminators options as being able to buy a rhino for them as a transport. They have done all these nice 6th edition updates but still missed something so crucially wrong and missleading! It was fedback to them on release day so they should be aware. And whilst we all know terminators can't ride in a rhino, I believe people could argue that the codex trumps the rulebook page you listed :P

I still don't have any idea what your talking about.

philbrad2
14-07-2012, 19:51
No Android support eh? Have to still with PDF's on my nice new shiny Nexus 7. God bless Google Drive I say!

PhilB
:chrome:

Miredorf
14-07-2012, 20:30
Does it say they are power weapons with +2 strength? Can you give us exact wording on Relic blades please?

Be nice for the big 2 Hand-ed Axe Relic Blades to be + 2 Strength on top of +1 for being an axe.

But why would you want this? it would be 1 less strength than a power fist and 5 points more expensive.

Rikka Rakka
15-07-2012, 13:50
What's the problem with Apple exactly? Or is it just 'knee jerk against the man' type stuff? I love my Ipad and both the Necron and SM book look lovely inside it.

Freakiq
15-07-2012, 14:26
No Android support eh? Have to still with PDF's on my nice new shiny Nexus 7. God bless Google Drive I say!

PhilB
:chrome:

Careful, I've received infractions for similar comments.

MajorWesJanson
15-07-2012, 15:03
What's the problem with Apple exactly? Or is it just 'knee jerk against the man' type stuff? I love my Ipad and both the Necron and SM book look lovely inside it.


Decent products, but the price premium is one thing, and the fact Apple wants to keep everything they can inside Apple controlled space, including maintenance, makes it easy to see where the Cult of the Machine comes from. I'd bet Mars in 40K was first colonized as an Apple project.

Given the increase of updates, and more instances of handfuls of characters being released, could we see a return to "Heroes/Enemies of the Imperium special characters in WD? Put out a new character model and rules in WD and as a paid update, then integrate them in the next codex?

philbrad2
15-07-2012, 15:23
Careful, I've received infractions for similar comments.

FAQ and reference sheets freely available from GW of course ...

PhilB
:chrome:

Zanzibarthefirst
15-07-2012, 16:09
The only problem I have with tha ipad exclusiveness is that if I no longer have an ipad than I've effectively lost that codex. If you bought it once and could use in on any platform than that would be great like what I do with all my comic books I get from comixology.

Theis
15-07-2012, 16:41
What's the problem with Apple exactly? Or is it just 'knee jerk against the man' type stuff? I love my Ipad and both the Necron and SM book look lovely inside it.

As has been mentioned previously in this thread, ibook format means apple exclusive. When a number of us already own droid or windows devices, we are perhaps understandably reluctant to throw down the minimum $500.00 just to be able to get GW books in a digital format.

I'd be perfectly happy to spend money on a digital codex. I'm just not interested in spending a significant fraction of what a new army would in order to have the ability to do so.

So, in short, nothing to do with apple, and everything to do with platform exclusivity. That it happens to be the most expensive of potential platforms merely exacerbates the issue.

Austinitor
15-07-2012, 17:57
I'm not really up on the scene, but reports as of February are that iBook Fairplay has been defeated to allow fair use of the product, through an application called Requiem.
I guess the question is, can you buy the iPad version without owning an iPad, and then shift it to your other eReader/netbook? I suspect the answer to buying it without an iPad is "no".

Rikka Rakka
15-07-2012, 18:48
As has been mentioned previously in this thread, ibook format means apple exclusive. When a number of us already own droid or windows devices, we are perhaps understandably reluctant to throw down the minimum $500.00 just to be able to get GW books in a digital format.

I'd be perfectly happy to spend money on a digital codex. I'm just not interested in spending a significant fraction of what a new army would in order to have the ability to do so.

So, in short, nothing to do with apple, and everything to do with platform exclusivity. That it happens to be the most expensive of potential platforms merely exacerbates the issue.

That's fair dos then. I can understand that. I just saw the childish 'Crapple' type comments and assumed Sheena is a punk rocker and all that jazz.

Starchild
16-07-2012, 00:11
@Austinitor: What you describe is possible but like I mentioned before it would require a ton of low-level programming including Assembler code just to build the compiler. The other problem is that the Apple legal dept. would annihilate the project with their multi-millon dollar piggy bank.

If rumours are correct Apple may be releasing a smaller 7.85" screen iPad this Fall priced around $200 USD. If this is true then getting access to GW iBooks will be much easier for the rest of us.

Glen_Savet
16-07-2012, 01:21
What's the problem with Apple exactly? Or is it just 'knee jerk against the man' type stuff? I love my Ipad and both the Necron and SM book look lovely inside it.

I dislike Apple because they seem to think they know better than I what I want to do with my electronics. That and I find it offensive that I have to make an appointment to go into the Apple store if I want help troubleshooting their terrible hardware problems.

MajorWesJanson
16-07-2012, 01:55
@Austinitor: What you describe is possible but like I mentioned before it would require a ton of low-level programming including Assembler code just to build the compiler. The other problem is that the Apple legal dept. would annihilate the project with their multi-millon dollar piggy bank.

If rumours are correct Apple may be releasing a smaller 7.85" screen iPad this Fall priced around $200 USD. If this is true then getting access to GW iBooks will be much easier for the rest of us.

Assuming we want an Apple product at all, even if it is cheaper than the large one. I'm holding out for the WinPad with keyboard and USB port(s).

Barghest
16-07-2012, 01:58
Oh, excuse me!

I was looking for a 40k rumour thread, I must have walked into the wrong forum, so sorry!

Azzy
16-07-2012, 02:03
What's the problem with Apple exactly? Or is it just 'knee jerk against the man' type stuff? I love my Ipad and both the Necron and SM book look lovely inside it.

A) It's overpriced for what it is and what it does, especially given its proprietary hardware and software, when compared to similar products.
B) It's not the only product electronic out there, so releasing digital products that can only be used on iPads is incredibly daft as GW's ignoring users PC/Linux/(and even) Mac desktops/laptops/netbooks as well as Android tablets, or other devices.

Azzy
16-07-2012, 02:10
Assuming we want an Apple product at all, even if it is cheaper than the large one. I'm holding out for the WinPad with keyboard and USB port(s).

I'll stick with my netbook... it's a real computer. :P

zippy77
16-07-2012, 02:15
A) It's overpriced for what it is and what it does, especially given its proprietary hardware and software, when compared to similar products.
B) It's not the only product electronic out there, so releasing digital products that can only be used on iPads is incredibly daft as GW's ignoring users PC/Linux/(and even) Mac desktops/laptops/netbooks as well as Android tablets, or other devices.

response to A) -- its not overpriced as many people are willing to pay the price of entry. apple sells an image more so than anything else. I personally was surprised as to how well the ipad is selling. I would never pay that much for it. That said I have one, because I get them free from work.

response to B) -- legally GW cannot publish on any other platform. Having published my own e-book, I decided to go non apple. However, the tools they provide are very very nice and were quite tempting. Honestly I believe GW did the right thing as the digital codex on any other platform would have been quite boring.

blameless
16-07-2012, 02:56
I have to make an appointment to go into the Apple store if I want help troubleshooting their terrible hardware problems.

Hahaha... ^funny how breakthrough in technology to the point of holding a supercomputer in your hand tied to a glass screen that has a touch interface matched with reliable software can be described as "terrible hardware".

As for making appointments? Just wow... Sense of entitlement much?

Austinitor
16-07-2012, 03:01
@MajorWesJanson: I'm not an expert on epub formats, but what I've read suggests very much the contrary. I'm glad to hear more of a technical explanation of why this is so (e.g. that the content is actually somehow buried in the executable, etc).
@zippy77: On a, just because someone is willing to get gouged doesn't mean it is over-priced; something is over-priced if it is intended to saturate a market but is limited in doing so by its high expense.
On response b, name your source, as you're suggesting that they're somehow contractually obligated to only publish through iBooks. I really doubt that a professional publishing house like GW used the iBooks Author, and if so, under such a restrictive license. Some quick Googling likewise showed me there are several options other than iBook Author, and that only it is encumbered by that license. Naturally, if you can see that the codices were definitely published with iBooks Author, then just say as much.

-Loki-
16-07-2012, 03:43
I'll stick with my netbook... it's a real computer. :P

I wouldn't go that far.

zippy77
16-07-2012, 05:11
@MajorWesJanson: I'm not an expert on epub formats, but what I've read suggests very much the contrary. I'm glad to hear more of a technical explanation of why this is so (e.g. that the content is actually somehow buried in the executable, etc).
@zippy77: On a, just because someone is willing to get gouged doesn't mean it is over-priced; something is over-priced if it is intended to saturate a market but is limited in doing so by its high expense.
On response b, name your source, as you're suggesting that they're somehow contractually obligated to only publish through iBooks. I really doubt that a professional publishing house like GW used the iBooks Author, and if so, under such a restrictive license. Some quick Googling likewise showed me there are several options other than iBook Author, and that only it is encumbered by that license. Naturally, if you can see that the codices were definitely published with iBooks Author, then just say as much.

I believe they were published with iBooks Author, as it is a multi-touch book but I cant swear to it. I believe (though this changes) that the only way to publish a multi-touch book is to enter into a contract with apple that limits distribution to only apple products.

ForgottenLore
16-07-2012, 05:53
I believe they were published with iBooks Author, as it is a multi-touch book but I cant swear to it. I believe (though this changes) that the only way to publish a multi-touch book is to enter into a contract with apple that limits distribution to only apple products.

A short time before iBooks Author was released I got a different book that has the exact same interface and (as far as I can tell) features as the GW digital codexes and it was released simultaneously for iOS and Android (and as a physical hardback)/ It was, however, an "app" on my ipad, it did not go (and still isn't) in the ibooks app, it is a separate icon.

BTW, the interface for these books is awesome. VERY easy to navigate and find things in. Very intuitive. I have never seen a regular epub or any other format of digital book that is as easy to use as this format is.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 06:46
Christ, it's like walking back into the year 2000.

The circles in the Venn diagram of vocal, forum-using Warhammer collectors and angry, open-source neckbeards obviously has a lot of overlap.

There are two reasons these books are iPad only: one is iBooks Author, which means GW don't have to hire a programmer to make these, and two is the fact that the iPad has something like 95% market share of tablets, going on web browsing (rather than lousy 'sales' figures like Samsung give out).

Even if GW suddenly did get an altruistic streak and decide to support Android (or even Windows - but if that hasn't happened since 1995 why should it now?) then they'd either need to hire a developer and build the things from scratch, or Google (Microsoft) would have to release tools that work the same way as iBooks Author does.

If the latter doesn't happen them who can blame GW for not wanting to spends tens of thousands of pounds to supply codexes to people who've proven more than willing to pirate PDF copies of them anyway, and at every step want to chest beat their preference for 'open' (read: 'no I'm not paying') software.

In the meantime I'll just keep on using and enjoying my iPad, Codex Necrons included.

Anyway, on topic:

Shame the update process isn't as simple as for Apps. Maybe it's because page references could change and mess up your bookmarks, etc.

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-07-2012, 07:15
If the latter doesn't happen them who can blame GW for not wanting to spends tens of thousands of pounds to supply codexes to people who've proven more than willing to pirate PDF copies of them anyway, and at every step want to chest beat their preference for 'open' (read: 'no I'm not paying') software.

You can't really infer anything meaningful from past behaviour about pirated PDF's as there have never really been a legal option for buying that kind of products so if you wanted it that was basically your only option. I would imagine that given a reasonably costed and easily available legal option the same thing would happen for GW digital books as have happened in other areas like music and people would actually use the option.

And of course all this hitting each other over the head with what tablet one prefer is completely ignoring the huge number of laptops, netbooks and desktops out there, easily beating the number of tablets combined that GW is unable to sell to with the current model. Tablets are not the only platform people might want these one.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 07:26
As I said: if GW haven't supported Windows so far, why would they now?

Are you suggesting people plonk a laptop down in the middle of their board while they play?

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-07-2012, 07:42
Not on the table they play at, but you can certainly have it around. I've done it before, played games where I've had all the rules as PDFs on a laptop and I've seen others do it too. Also, lots of people would have a laptop or a desktop or something in the room they game in anyway so the option to have it there would certainly be welcome. And that's ignoring the fact that people might want the codex for use outside of playing as well. You know, just to look through, make up your army, that kind of thing. Using it in the middle of a game is only a part of what you use the codex for.

And saying that GW have never supported Windows before so why now is pretty silly when they have also not made a digital codex before or supported iPads/Macs before so you could equally well apply the reason there and lo and behold, they do now.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 09:10
My point is there's been nothing stopping them: they clearly just don't think it's worth the outlay. And I think they're right.

The iPad is a new and valuable market, and there is a powerful free tool available for making these kind of interactive books for it. So GW has taken notice.

Starchild
16-07-2012, 11:49
Like it or not tablets are the future of computing... not necessarily because we want it this way but market forces and social engineering are pushing people away from PCs and laptops (including Macs). Tablet software is far more intuitive than personal computer software because it is not burdened by a file management system. Even small children and the elderly can use tablets with little or no training.

GW has simply made a bet on future trends and eventually the decision will pay off rather well for them.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 12:08
What Starchild said.

And as an aside: I am a fully paid up nerd who works in IT, and this March I sold my personal computer. I now have only an iPad and smartphone, and love it.

Austinitor
16-07-2012, 12:31
Flame on, you crazy fanboi. It must be neckbearded to prefer a keyboard to a touchscreen or to want to see beyond a walled garden.

Anyway, the post couldn't have more wrong in it. The only software I know GW to have previously produced/farmed out, Armies of the Imperium, was Windows only.

As to the claim regarding needed developers (Objective C, I presume?) if not using iBook Author, my understanding is that there are numerous other "click to develop" options that even a member of the Jobsian Machine Fruit Cult could make work.

Azzy
16-07-2012, 12:35
Christ, it's like walking back into the year 2000.

The circles in the Venn diagram of vocal, forum-using Warhammer collectors and angry, open-source neckbeards obviously has a lot of overlap.

There are two reasons these books are iPad only: one is iBooks Author, which means GW don't have to hire a programmer to make these, and two is the fact that the iPad has something like 95% market share of tablets, going on web browsing (rather than lousy 'sales' figures like Samsung give out).

Even if GW suddenly did get an altruistic streak and decide to support Android (or even Windows - but if that hasn't happened since 1995 why should it now?) then they'd either need to hire a developer and build the things from scratch, or Google (Microsoft) would have to release tools that work the same way as iBooks Author does.

If the latter doesn't happen them who can blame GW for not wanting to spends tens of thousands of pounds to supply codexes to people who've proven more than willing to pirate PDF copies of them anyway, and at every step want to chest beat their preference for 'open' (read: 'no I'm not paying') software.

In the meantime I'll just keep on using and enjoying my iPad, Codex Necrons included.

Anyway, on topic:

Shame the update process isn't as simple as for Apps. Maybe it's because page references could change and mess up your bookmarks, etc.

Wow, how's that kool-aid? You start off with ad hominems against anybody that disagrees with your particular stance and proceed with bogus and ignorant claims and more insults. Very entertaining, but complete, non-factual crap.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 14:07
The kool aid is very tasty, thanks.

I'm not sure what bit of what I wrote was false, but it's irrelevant anyway - this thread was way off topic by the time I got here: I just felt that the pro Apple side was a little under represented.

If its so easy to make books like this for other devices, why haven't they?

Starchild
16-07-2012, 14:11
@Ausinator: I know how you and others feel but when a multi-billion dollar company uses market power to force products on the world population, fundamental changes occur and there is little or nothing we can do about it. Personally I'd be happy with PCs and laptops for the rest of my life but eventually these will be used mainly by developers of mobile apps... again, not by our choice, but because men wearing $1000 suits with triple chins decided a "Post-PC World" would better fit their objectives for the global economy.

EDIT: Anyway regarding the updates, like I said earlier, I'm willing to bet iOS 6 will have a better way to update books, similar to the way apps are updated.

Zothos
16-07-2012, 14:11
This thread needs to go away.

Vektorraum
16-07-2012, 14:13
Is there anything special in those iBook codices that can't be done with a common eBook format?

Starchild
16-07-2012, 14:17
@Vektorraum: Basically everything including the chapter navigation model, lightbox galleries, and 360 degree model views.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 14:18
@Ausinator: I know how you and others feel but when a multi-billion dollar company uses market power to force products on the world population, fundamental changes occur and there is little or nothing we can do about it. Personally I'd be happy with PCs and laptops for the rest of my life but eventually these will be used mainly by developers of mobile apps... again, not by our choice, but because men wearing $1000 suits with triple chins decided a "Post-PC World" would better fit their objectives for the global economy.

Anyway regarding the updates, like I said earlier, I'm willing to bet iOS 6 will have a better way to update books, similar to the apps are updated.

I actually prefer to use a tablet, but each to their own.

Austinitor
16-07-2012, 14:19
@Starchild: certainly agreed.
I'm not tablet-phobic, I'll admit; I've been shopping Android 4 tablets as a means of viewing gaming books from DriveThruRPG et al.
I'm hoping that when I do, there will be an option to buy the iCodices and get them on there. If it takes jumping through a couple of hoops to see my fair use accomplished and defeat their decision to make them "defective by design", so be it.

Vektorraum
16-07-2012, 14:24
@Vektorraum: Basically everything including the chapter navigation model, lightbox galleries, and 360 degree model views.

I reckon any ebook would allow some form of chapter navigation and extra information in footnotes, so you don't have to change pages/chapters too often. Rotating models, i.e. changing pictures depending on user input, might not be possible outside of an iBook. As for the lightbox galleries, i assume those are just a bunch of images? So easily done with any ebook.


My favourite feature is that you can tap a rule of weapon in the army list to get a popup with the full rules for it. Means you don't have to jump back and forth.
I can select a footnote on a kindle and it displays the appropriate information. So it's something that can be done with other ebook formats.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 14:28
My favourite feature is that you can tap a rule of weapon in the army list to get a popup with the full rules for it. Means you don't have to jump back and forth.

Austinitor
16-07-2012, 14:35
@my_name_is_tudor: that does sound pretty cool. I do hope GW takes the next logical step and does some sort of army list app with integration.

Frankly, though, BattleScribe (with fan-created datafiles containing re-typed rules) seems to do a little better for me, on my Android, as it condenses things to what's actually in my army.

Now that BattleScribe has been approved for iOS, I think a killer app might be some means of creating deep links of a specific rule/profile into the iBook file, in the datafiles (as most datafile entries already list a page number); that would be great.

my_name_is_tudor
16-07-2012, 14:49
I wonder if GW just don't want to get involved in the complexity of actually spelling out in maths their convoluted ruleset.

Codsticker
16-07-2012, 15:38
As this thread has evolved into a discussion about GW's use of iBook2/Apple vs. other formats I am moving this thread to GW General.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

carlisimo
16-07-2012, 16:51
If they're only available on Apple products, they'll never see a penny from me for these.

I assume GW would revisit their stance if another tablet OS achieved significant market share in the large tablet (~10") segment. Right now Android is only strong in the 7" segment, and I can see GW not wanting to bother with that size.

I think piracy is also a greater concern with Android. Perhaps more importantly, an e-codex with as many features as this one in Android or Metro would have to be an app, which would require a real programmer. Right now, iBooks makes it pretty easy for authors to do all that fancy stuff.

I'd expect a few years to go by before GW drops the Apple exclusivity.

Austinitor
16-07-2012, 17:19
@my_name_is_tudor: I have to say I agree regarding convoluted maths in their rules, having done at least one BattleScribe datafile. Were I delivered such business rules by a business anaylist with the expectation of coding them, I would very much like to punch them in the mouth.

There's, sadly, are no better than the homebrew L[A]RP rules I've tried to build character databases for, regarding consistency and concision.

Austinitor
16-07-2012, 17:22
@carlisimo (http://www.warseer.com/forums/member.php?21884-carlisimo)
Strange that Cupertino is rumored to be about to enter the 7" space.

As these are books, not videos, does having it in a book format (rather than magazine format) really hurt? After all, most eReaders are in that ~7" category.

As to GW's magazine-sized Codices, all that seems to need to change is re-flowing the layouts... and with the forthcoming 6th ed mini rulebook, they'd be good to go out of the gate.

carlisimo
16-07-2012, 17:53
It's not strange; it's the space where Android is making inroads, and clearly it's not a size that nobody wants (as Steve Jobs claimed). But it sounds like they're going with something closer to 8", and quite a bit wider (Android manufacturers seem to prefer widescreen aspect ratios, while Apple prefers 4:3). It'll be interesting to see if GW allows the codexes to work at that size.

jack da greenskin
16-07-2012, 17:57
What Starchild said.

And as an aside: I am a fully paid up nerd who works in IT, and this March I sold my personal computer. I now have only an iPad and smartphone, and love it.

So whenever you want to buy music, films, tv series... You do it through apple? With their over inflated prices and making it almost impossible to put them on another platform? Crazy. Fools and their money.


I also consider myself tech'd up. I have a tablet, (android) that I upload music/media I've ripped off cheap cd's and dvds, It has a micro USB port to make file transfer easy and lo and behold, it has an SD card slot, so I can take anything I've quickly downloaded and put it straight on my tab. I leave my laptop at home, and take my tablet with me gaming, travelling, working, and staying away from home.

Starchild
16-07-2012, 18:04
@carlisimo: The smaller iPad will run the full gamut of iPad apps and that includes all iBooks products. The text should still be readable even on the smaller screen.

zippy77
17-07-2012, 02:44
i will throw this tid bit on the fire: http://appanalysis.org/ there are some fun glaring holes in the android security model, this just illustrates some.

Austinitor
17-07-2012, 02:57
@zippy77: utterly unrelated to the security of the Apple DRM, FairPlay, which has been defeated... and likewise utterly unrelated to any Android copy protection regime (the only thing relevant in context).

zippy77
17-07-2012, 03:10
@zippy77: utterly unrelated to the security of the Apple DRM, FairPlay, which has been defeated... and likewise utterly unrelated to any Android copy protection regime (the only thing relevant in context).

It is not quite as irrelevant as you point out, as people like to make the case that produce X is better than product Y, or that person Z is overpaying ... or any number of other comments about how their choice in tech is clearly the best and everyone else is clearly in the wrong. I figured I would simply pass on information to those pricing android tablets for wargaming use to consider. Though also consider that we have no idea if the app approval process at apple actually catches anything along these lines.

Austinitor
17-07-2012, 03:14
Your point being, that we should be afraid of GW violating our privacy (no one expects the Nottingham Inquisition!) if they create an Android App?
As to Apple, for me, that ship has long since sailed; I'm utterly unwilling to deal with a device in a walled garden, or with an app launcher interface as limited as it is.

zippy77
17-07-2012, 03:27
Your point being, that we should be afraid of GW violating our privacy (no one expects the Nottingham Inquisition!) if they create an Android App?
As to Apple, for me, that ship has long since sailed; I'm utterly unwilling to deal with a device in a walled garden, or with an app launcher interface as limited as it is.

My point is only to bring to light the failings of android so people can make their decisions appropriately. Not with respect to GW's hypothetical app, but any app.


Just out of curiosity but do you really understand the repercussions of a walled garden approach vs the android model?

Starchild
17-07-2012, 04:33
@zippy77: Speaking as a developer, Android programming is a bit like a stroll through the Realm of Chaos with so many different versions of the operating system and so many potential device capabilities. The ability to cherry pick which Android devices you want to target apps for comes with the cost of a great many more development hours... and even then it's nigh impossible to keep up with all the iterations of every single Android OS version, and how each can break your app in different ways.

Vektorraum
17-07-2012, 12:06
@zippy77: Speaking as a developer, Android programming is a bit like a stroll through the Realm of Chaos with so many different versions of the operating system and so many potential device capabilities. The ability to cherry pick which Android devices you want to target apps for comes with the cost of a great many more development hours... and even then it's nigh impossible to keep up with all the iterations of every single Android OS version, and how each can break your app in different ways.

And how is that different from all the different iOS versions and devices?

Vektorraum
17-07-2012, 12:12
i will throw this tid bit on the fire: http://appanalysis.org/ there are some fun glaring holes in the android security model, this just illustrates some.

I am not sure if apple has fixed the exact same problem they had with apps having access to your private data: http://gizmodo.com/5885321/how-iphone-apps-steal-your-contact-data-and-why-you-cant-stop-it
That article is a couple of month old so it might not be a problem any more.

Starchild
17-07-2012, 12:28
@Vektorraum: Now we get to the heart of the issue. The reason why Apple attracts more developers than Android is twofold: 1) The success of the App Store and 2) The internal consistency of the Application Programming Interface.

Instead of a myriad of devices to design apps for, there are only two: iPhone and iPad. It's very easy to create an app that will work correctly on both devices because there are only two screen sizes.

Then there's the Objective-C programming language. It's fairly easy to learn, plus it can access traditional C libraries for even more flexibility. The Apple Core libraries make it incredibly easy to add any functionality: Core Data, Core Graphics, etc. Everything is well organized and the documentation is fairly complete and all in one place.

With Android development exceptions have to be made for each version of the OS, which sometimes vary dramatically. One way around this is to make one version of the app for each Android OS, but like I said this adds up to be a ton of work. Android isn't as developer friendly as iOS, but I have a lot of respect for programmers who can make Android apps that can run well on many different smartphones and tablets.

Vektorraum
17-07-2012, 12:43
Instead of a myriad of devices to design apps for, there are only two: iPhone and iPad. It's very easy to create an app that will work correctly on both devices because there are only two screen sizes.


That can't be true as i have apps on a 3GS that won't run on my first (or perhaps second) generation iPhone. The newer iPhones even have a higher resolution display iirc and i doubt that apps created with that in mind would run on the older devices. The same might be true for the iPad (i haven't tried to install too many apps on my iPad2 but i guess the newer iPad version might have enough hardware differences that there will be different app versions needed).

This problem is probably a bit more pronounced with android devices though (as there are even more variations). Therefore i'd rather see the digital codices in an independent eBook format that works on most devices (simple eBook readers and tablets, etc).

Starchild
17-07-2012, 13:11
What I was referring to was the current hardware. When the retina display came out all we had to do was double the resolution of the graphics-- nothing like the multiple screen sizes and aspect ratios on Android devices.

iOS developers can still make apps that run on the older iPhones as long as they have the previous versions of iOS installed in Xcode, plus they have to deal with manual memory management. But it's still not a huge deal when most iPhone users upgrade to the iPhone 4 and 4S anyway.

Sai-Lauren
17-07-2012, 15:11
There are two reasons these books are iPad only: one is iBooks Author, which means GW don't have to hire a programmer to make these, and two is the fact that the iPad has something like 95% market share of tablets, going on web browsing (rather than lousy 'sales' figures like Samsung give out).

1) Download some freeware PDF generator application like PDF Creator - knowledge of programming required, about zero.
2) Apple don't have a 95% share of the entire computer market (and how long is their share of the tablet market going to remain that high?)



Like it or not tablets are the future of computing... not necessarily because we want it this way but market forces and social engineering are pushing people away from PCs and laptops (including Macs). Tablet software is far more intuitive than personal computer software because it is not burdened by a file management system. Even small children and the elderly can use tablets with little or no training.

GW has simply made a bet on future trends and eventually the decision will pay off rather well for them.

They are burdened with a file system, it's just hidden behind a fancy user interface so that the user doesn't see it.

At the moment, they're new and exciting. And I could certainly see them becoming something like the home web-shopping point, tv-phone and so on - assuming that once they stop being new and shiny, people still use them and don't just drop the idea because it's not trendy anymore and something else has come along.

But, even as consumer-level devices, they're really a solution in search of a problem.

If you want anything with any real power for an office environment, well, let's just say that a tablet would always be bottom of my list.

Binky
18-07-2012, 13:57
But, even as consumer-level devices, they're really a solution in search of a problem.

I disagree with that, tablets really fit the role of "sofa-surfing" device extremely well. They're small, light and convenient. Always on, so you can access them instantly, meaning that you can check e-mail or look something up on a website in a few seconds. They're easy and pleasant to use, a touchscreen is far easier to use than the little trackpads that you get on a netbook or laptop.

I find that the combination of a tablet for consuming information (e-mail, web browsing, forums, online shopping etc) and simple gaming, combined with a desktop for more productive activity and proper gaming, works extremely well.

There are also plenty of other useful roles that I'm finding for my tablet; I can control my AV kit, lights and blinds, view and program my PVR without turning on my screen, view CCTV, all in one integrated program that can link and automate all that functionality in a small device that is generally sat next to me on the sofa and which is active instantly when I want it.

carlisimo
18-07-2012, 23:43
If you want anything with any real power for an office environment, well, let's just say that a tablet would always be bottom of my list.

I work in structural engineering, and we're finding them to be better than laptops for taking to meetings and showing architects or contractors what we want to do. They aren't powerful enough to do real work on, just to display what we've done. We can pull up 3D models and spin them around pretty easily.

We do our work using desktop computers; the heavier laptops could do it too, but no one really wants to lug those around to meetings. Their battery life would be short, they take too long to boot up (odds are the other parties at a meeting wouldn't bother waiting), and they're clumsy to hold in the field.

My wife's firm uses iPads on bridge inspections, using a proprietary app. You can take a picture with the iPad, dictate notes relating to that photo, and mark that spot on the original drawings (that's where the tablet size comes in handy over a smartphone). You used to have to juggle a camera, pencil, clipboard, and a too-small photocopy of the original drawings, but now you only need two hands instead of four.

Aryllon
25-07-2012, 18:50
So whenever you want to buy music, films, tv series... You do it through apple? With their over inflated prices and making it almost impossible to put them on another platform? Crazy. Fools and their money.

Um, Spotify? Netflix? YouTube? BBC iPlayer? Skyplayer? TV Catchup? Slingbox App? Wimp? Hulu? All of which operate behind a login where necessary so you have full access to your full collection via any device, whether Apple or otherwise?

@Sai-Lauren: how is downloading a PDF generator going to help create something who's is in no way akin to a PDF?

I'm no Apple fanboi, but since getting an iPad three weeks ago I've only turned on my laptop to use MS Office or photoshop. None of my media is restricted by iTunes, because I don't need to use iTunes for most of it and wouldn't want to transfer the iTunes dependant stuff to my laptop anyway.

Sai-Lauren
27-07-2012, 14:29
@Sai-Lauren: how is downloading a PDF generator going to help create something who's is in no way akin to a PDF?

What I quoted:


one is iBooks Author, which means GW don't have to hire a programmer to make these


was basically saying that publishing to iPad was simple and easy enough to be done by the teaboy, whilst publishing to anything else was a huge, complicated endeavour that requires specialised people.

I was merely refuting it - publishing to PDF is about as easy as selecting which printer you want to output to, and you're not limiting yourself to a single platform.

And yes, sorry, the output is a PDF - from wikipedia.



iBooks Author (iBA) is an e-book authoring application by Apple Inc. Documents created with iBooks Author may be exported as PDF files or be published to the Apple iBooks Bookstore. iBooks Author is available free of charge.

...

The output of iBooks Author is a proprietary Apple file format similar to the EPUB standard, but with extensions that prevent it from being universally readable or editable as an EPUB document. The format uses undocumented, proprietary XML namespaces and undocumented extensions to CSS

carlisimo
27-07-2012, 22:56
I think GW knows how it easy it is to find pirated .pdf codexes online. They can't charge $45 for an official copy of the exact same thing.

Dangersaurus
28-07-2012, 01:25
I disagree. Plenty of RPG materials only cost $1, yet you still see them pirated. You can't compete with free, and some people are just going to pirate things for whatever reason. Legitimate buyers will pay fair prices, though there is plenty of room for discussion on what's fair.

Inquisitor Engel
29-07-2012, 07:35
I disagree. Plenty of RPG materials only cost $1, yet you still see them pirated. You can't compete with free, and some people are just going to pirate things for whatever reason. Legitimate buyers will pay fair prices, though there is plenty of room for discussion on what's fair.

Indeed. People will pirate whatever they can. As an aside, Valve's foray into Linux seems a bit pointless to me, since no one I know with Linux actually wants to you know... pay for anything... hence Linux. GW didn't do Android first for a reason - Apple owners typically pay for their stuff. (Not saying Android owners steal necessarily, but as a group they are not so easily parted with their money)


I think GW knows how it easy it is to find pirated .pdf codexes online. They can't charge $45 for an official copy of the exact same thing.

THIS.

Vektorraum
29-07-2012, 11:43
since no one I know with Linux actually wants to you know... pay for anything... hence Linux.

Thankfully that is not true at all for the majority of linux users. There's more to it than the lack of an initial price tag: independence, transparency, long term support, etc.


GW didn't do Android first for a reason - Apple owners typically pay for their stuff. (Not saying Android owners steal necessarily, but as a group they are not so easily parted with their money)

Yeah, it seems as if apple users are easily convinced to pay loads for identical (or even inferior) products just for the apple logo...




I think GW knows how it easy it is to find pirated .pdf codexes online. They can't charge $45 for an official copy of the exact same thing.

THIS.


I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).

Spacemunkie
30-07-2012, 07:24
iBooks Author costs GW zero to use and to publish content. Blaming Apple for GW's choice of publishing tool is bordering on the cretinous. The reasons GW use iBooks is because it's free and because any designer can cobble together content very easily. Adobe's multi-platform alternative with near identical functionality is comparatively expensive - an expense that likely wouldn't pay for itself atm.

Vektorraum
30-07-2012, 11:16
A common eBook format doesn't require anything outside a word processor or dtp software with html output and a free tool to convert the file. I am also not sure if a company producing and selling as many books and other printed media as gw would shy away from a little expense on necessary layouting/publishing software. The iBook software being free is largely irrelevant for them.

tiger g
30-07-2012, 12:46
I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).[/QUOTE]

I guess you have not used it. It is not just a PDF. With the glossary lookup and other features it is much easier to use than a pdf or a hard cover book. As was said before if you want you can get a pirated pdf already.

I am enjoying ease of use of both the space marine and necron codexes.

Vektorraum
30-07-2012, 13:19
The lookup can be done just as easily with a pdf or any eBook format.

ForgottenLore
30-07-2012, 15:00
The lookup can be done just as easily with a pdf or any eBook format.

I have yet to encounter a pdf or other ebook format that has the ease of use that this style does (which I am guessing is what you mean by "the lookup", have never encountered that term outside of this thread before either). Think you could point to one?

Vektorraum
30-07-2012, 15:42
With the glossary lookup

"the lookup"

I was referring to the text popup that you can get in the codex iBooks when you click on a USR or weapon name (i hope that's what tiger g meant). The same can be done using footnotes in eBooks; e.g. highlighting the corresponding number or letter next to a USR would display the additional information on a kindle (it won't be in a neat popup but at the bottom or top of the page though).
A pdf file allows the inclusion of notes that popup like a post-it or even real popups using forms with show/hide properties. In addition you can create links pointing to different parts of the document. All of that can be used for the "lookup".

Inquisitor Engel
30-07-2012, 16:56
Thankfully that is not true at all for the majority of linux users. There's more to it than the lack of an initial price tag: independence, transparency, long term support, etc.

I work in the video game industry and there's a reason it takes speciality developers to buy a the license to convert a game to run on Linux (or users to create a WINE bottle for it). Market research has shown again and again and again that linux users simply don't pay for things with the same regularity, repeatability or in the same dollar amounts as PC or Mac users, plain and simple.

Linux is not an operating system, it's a lifestyle choice.*




Yeah, it seems as if apple users are easily convinced to pay loads for identical (or even inferior) products just for the apple logo...

Specs aren't everything. The reason most people buy iPhones over and over again (many of whom had never touched, and still haven't touched, another Apple product) is simple: Experience.


I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).

Then it's clear you're haven't used it, making almost all of your arguments here invalid. Scanned PDF's of the Codexes aren't searchable either which makes this... well, it's more convenient that carrying a bunch of books around, but not by much.





*Valve is doing it purely for publicity, they know there's almost no money in it, as far as big-picture goes.

Vektorraum
30-07-2012, 17:58
I work in the video game industry and there's a reason it takes speciality developers to buy a the license to convert a game to run on Linux (or users to create a WINE bottle for it). Market research has shown again and again and again that linux users simply don't pay for things with the same regularity, repeatability or in the same dollar amounts as PC or Mac users, plain and simple.

As a scientist i have my own prejudices vs market "research", so please bear with me. But how thorough are those studies, what was the scope and goal of them and lastly who financed them?

I don't have any numbers, but i'd guess that linux is usually not used as the OS of choice if you are looking at games, so why would anyone really bother with porting games? There just aren't enough customers to warrant additional development time. In addition the support from hardware vendors for linux "drivers" and/or documentation is still not as good as for the mainstream OSs, further increasing the needed manpower.

There are far fewer games running on apple systems than are available for PC, even though the apple customers "pay for things". Why is that? Perhaps due to the lack of gaming enthusiast on apple side? The additional manpower needed to port stuff?



Linux is not an operating system, it's a lifestyle choice.


Freeloading is not part of it though.



Specs aren't everything. The reason most people buy iPhones over and over again (many of whom had never touched, and still haven't touched, another Apple product) is simple: Experience.


I've only ever used apple smartphones (and am currently using one). So it might be naive of me to think that android phones offer just as much ease of use, quality and satisfaction. The same goes for tablets. I've only got my iPad to judge the rest of the available devices. Looking at pictures and sales figures led me to believe that there aren't many differences.



Then it's clear you're haven't used it, making almost all of your arguments here invalid. Scanned PDF's of the Codexes aren't searchable either which makes this... well, it's more convenient that carrying a bunch of books around, but not by much.


I've said as much, when i asked for a description of the digital codices specialties some time ago in this thread. I am again judging from pictures and descriptions in this thread. The codex itself seemed to be a nicely laid out piece of text with additional images and borders. There are popups for USRs, etc and 360 images.
I was then merely stating that you could emulate most of that (exception are most likely the 360 images) with a pdf or a common eBook format.

I hope that gw will release their codices for more systems than iBooks in the future. That's probably why i derailed this thread even further. Sorry for that.


One last thing: pdfs are certainly searchable if they contain text. So i'd guess that pirated stuff would make use of OCR software. I did not try to promote pirated stuff nor do i want to do it now though. It merely came up as part of the arguments.

Inquisitor Engel
30-07-2012, 18:14
There are far fewer games running on apple systems than are available for PC, even though the apple customers "pay for things". Why is that? Perhaps due to the lack of gaming enthusiast on apple side? The additional manpower needed to port stuff?

It's slowly changing, and has been for some time. It's a long historical discussion, really. ;)


Freeloading is not part of it though.

For people choosing it for servers and scientific work, I'd agree with you, but that's not everyone using Linux either (though it definitely makes up a larger portion of the devices running it).


I hope that gw will release their codices for more systems than iBooks in the future. That's probably why i derailed this thread even further. Sorry for that.

Oh definitely, bigger market = a good thing. That said, GW took the easy way out and went with iBooks Author, which while easy and great, isn't usable with any other service or device that I'm aware of.


One last thing: pdfs are certainly searchable if they contain text. So i'd guess that pirated stuff would make use of OCR software. I did not try to promote pirated stuff nor do i want to do it now though. It merely came up as part of the arguments.

Most people scanning in Codexes are just doing them as images. From what I understand, having a program scan images and figure out text isn't cheap or easy. Someone smarter than I may know of something nice and fun though. Even the playtest print-ready PDF's GW sends out don't have the text as... well as text. I always assumed they did this for security.


As an aside, I'd really like to see the BSG Rulebook get the iBooks treatment. Currently free, but I'd pay good money for it.

Vektorraum
30-07-2012, 19:11
Oh definitely, bigger market = a good thing. That said, GW took the easy way out and went with iBooks Author, which while easy and great, isn't usable with any other service or device that I'm aware of.

Back when they decided to create a digital codex the iPad might have been the only device they deemed suitable for tabletop use (eBook readers were just gray scale and no android tabs around). Judging from the positive response testing the waters in this way was overall a good thing, i.e. customers are satisfied and hopefully the sales figures support their decision to go digital.
I remain optimistic that some day we won't be "forced" to carry around all those paper tomes any more regardless of our preferred displaying device :)

carlisimo
30-07-2012, 20:28
I fail to see how the apple iBook is really different from a pirated pdf or a common eBook version of it (apart from the rotating 360-images; those are from the games-workshop webpage?). So if they find customers for the iBook version, they'll find people to buy their eBook (or pdf).

With a .pdf, it's fairly obvious you're using a cheap copy that doesn't quite fit the device you're using. On a 10" screen the text is too small, so you're zooming in and out a lot. Image-heavy pages might take a couple of seconds to load. Going from page to page is not as smooth, quick, or easy as flipping through a real book or eBook. A "good" .pdf would probably have double the number of pages, with each page having half the content. At that point you're doing enough work to go all-out with a real eBook.

eBooks should be fine, but they take some work to put together. Apple makes it cheaper and easier to make an iBook. The smaller investment required makes it more appropriate for an experiment like this one. If it works, then it would be worth it for GW to pay the costs of making eBooks.

Besides, all this started before the Nexus 7 came out (I think it'll have a strong effect on the tablet market). GW started this project back when the only successful tablets were the iPad and the Kindle Fire. I don't see GW wanting to work with Amazon... which leaves the iPad.

It's only been the last couple of months that Android and Windows tablets have looked like they had any promise.

ForgottenLore
30-07-2012, 22:41
I was referring to the text popup that you can get in the codex iBooks when you click on a USR or weapon name

Ah, that makes sense. And yes, a pdf or ebook is capable of that.

That is not what would make this format so much better (for me) than any other ebook I have seen before. It is the interface and ease of navigation. As I said in this post earlier in this thread

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?346077-Update-Space-Marine-Codex-Apple-GW-and-You!&p=6326531&viewfull=1#post6326531

The only other..."book" I have encountered that had this type of navigation wasn't an eBook, it was a dedicated app. I also don't know if the android version of it used the same navigation system or not.

In my experience, ebooks are perfectly fine for basic linear reading; novels, magazine articles and the like, but they pretty much suck for anything that you need to flip back and forth in, and GW codexes seem specifically designed to require a lot of flipping back and forth. The navigation on the digital SM codex is by far the easiest I have ever seen a digital document perform that function. It still isn't quite as easy as with a physical book, but it is close.

I hate proprietary formats, but I love functionality more. If someone can show me that basic epubs, or some other, non-proprietary format can accomplish the same ease of use as an iBooks Author book then I will be all about how GW (and everyone else on the planet) should be using that format. Until then though, I am sticking with what will actually work.

Berk
30-07-2012, 22:50
I work in the video game industry and there's a reason it takes speciality developers to buy a the license to convert a game to run on Linux (or users to create a WINE bottle for it). Market research has shown again and again and again that linux users simply don't pay for things with the same regularity, repeatability or in the same dollar amounts as PC or Mac users, plain and simple.


Every now and then there is an offer of Indie games in the form of the humble bundle. Four or five Indie games are bundled together in a single offer, they are cross platform, and you can choose how much you wish to pay for them. They always give a breakdown of the amount people have paid and how this breaks down by platform.

For the Humble Bundle 4, the figures for downloads are unsurprising, Windows wins by a mile, with Mac coming second and Linux below them, what is surprising is the average purchase cost made by platform From 435,000 downloads the average price paid is $5.45, Windows users fall below this average with $4.87, Mac users paid more with an average of $7.61 and Linux users had the highest average of $10.42. If my memory serves correct, this has been a fairly consistent spread across all the the humble bundles so far. The results do get skewed slightly by some people paying thousands of dollars for the bundle to support the indie games development (although I don't know if it states what platforms these people are paying for the games for), but it's still quite interesting.

While this isn't scientific or conclusive, it does show that Linux users are willing to put their hands in their pockets to get games that will run on their platform. The biggest issue is normally compatibility across all the different hardware configurations out there along with the myriad of distributions, all with their own little quirks. Android has less of the issues with the distributions, but still suffers with compatibility between the wide range of hardware that runs it.

Dangersaurus
30-07-2012, 23:18
While this isn't scientific or conclusive, it does show that Linux users are willing to put their hands in their pockets to get games that will run on their platform.

It really only shows that Linux gamers who are interested in indie games are willing to pay slightly more than non-Linux gamers when there's a fire sale on bundled games.

Inquisitor Engel
02-08-2012, 17:57
It really only shows that Linux gamers who are interested in indie games are willing to pay slightly more than non-Linux gamers when there's a fire sale on bundled games.

Indeed. There's also a LOT of hate directed at the Humble Indie Bundles by some developers. I tried to put a similar sale together for our service and at least half of the responses from Indie devs (whom we have EXCELLENT relationships with) were to the effect of "We're going to pass, this whole thing about making Indie games super cheap needs to stop. They're priced what we think they're worth."

Some of the more salty replies said the HIB was a *********** piece of **** run by *****.