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Azazel
09-07-2012, 19:10
Hi, my housemate has been beating me very soundly lately. Usually I'm forced to admit defeat by turn 3 if I havn't already been wiped out. I played this game for over 15 years and normally I enjoy tweaking my lists slightly and overcoming the challenge of beating my opponents. But this really has me stumped. Our games aren't even remotely close.

I play CSM and Chaos Daemons, so if you can give me some tips on how to beat this army with them I would appreciate it. But if you have any ideas at all, even a different army all together I would like to hear that too.

We play 2500 points and he regularly uses 2 FoC.

His list:

HQ

1 x Haemonculus (Flamer template weapon)
5 x Wracks (Flamer template weapon)
1 x Raider Transport

1 x Haemonculus (Flamer template weapon)
5 x Wracks (Flamer template weapon)
1 x Raider Transport

ELITES

5 x Trueborn (3 Blasters, 2 Splinter Cannons)
1 x Venom with Splinter Cannons

TROOPS

10 x Dark Eldar Warriors (Splinter Cannon)
1 x Raider Transport (with the reroll misses with Splinter Rifles)

10 x Dark Eldar Warriors (Splinter Cannon)
1 x Raider Transport (with the reroll misses with Splinter Rifles)

10 x Dark Eldar Warriors (Splinter Cannon)
1 x Raider Transport (with the reroll misses with Splinter Rifles)

10 x Dark Eldar Warriors (Splinter Cannon)
1 x Raider Transport (with the reroll misses with Splinter Rifles)

10 x Dark Eldar Warriors (Splinter Cannon)
1 x Raider Transport (with the reroll misses with Splinter Rifles)

FAST ATTACK

6 x Reavers (with the D6 S6 hit on a unit they fly over)
5 x Reavers (with the D6 S6 hit on a unit they fly over)

HEAVY SUPPORT

Ravager (3 Dark Lances)
Ravager (3 Disintigraters)
Ravager (3 Disintigraters)
Razorwing Jetfighter (Splinter Cannons and Disintigraters)


Can you tailor a list to beat this one?

Chief Librarian Zypher
09-07-2012, 19:20
Its not a matter of tailoring a list to be a list, but to beat the army in general. if you break it down technically heres what I see

1. lots of open topped fast skimmers
2. two units with template weapons
3. lance weaponry
4. lots and lots of T3 people

so with that ID'd, and not knowing what you play, build your army around those four points. then it is a matter of target priority. 5 of 6 missions are objective missions now. Get his monkey-elf-butt out of his transports and blast him to eternity either with mass fires (dev team missile launchers are cheap) or artillery (basilisks, medusas, etc). i'm an imperium player.

if your opponent lets you use IA units, a couple well placed Lucius Drop Pods loaded with Siege Pattern Dreads would ruin at min 2 units a turn. bake him alive in his own transport.

Nubl0
09-07-2012, 19:32
Well with my nids I would bring as many HG as possible, even then I doubt i could do much other than spawn lots of gaunts to throw at them. However with my necrons... well I could apply either of our fliers and win pretty easy (they are filth!). Or I could do what hes doing for better and cheaper with units of 5 warrriors/stormtek in ghostarks. Never played a marine army though, so as CSM I would just advise to bring as much str7+ shooting as possible, its very easy to knock out those raiders.

HereBeDragons
09-07-2012, 19:37
I can see how CSM and daemons are struggling here! 6 autocannon predators to take out all the open topped skimmers? Then what ever else you like to wipe out everything else :D

owen matthew
09-07-2012, 20:02
I bet 2500 points is why you are struggling, its so many! Play at 1500 or 1850 and I bet you will automatically do MUCH better, and your games will be faster, hell, play 2 instead! I know its not what you are asking for, but it was my first response.

Ruination Drinker
09-07-2012, 20:05
With all that FOC love it sounds like you can spam tons of Obliterators. Oblits are well equipped to take on all those skimmers and they are now not very fun to charge for anybody wearing +4 save armor.

Nubl0
09-07-2012, 20:09
I bet 2500 points is why you are struggling, its so many! Play at 1500 or 1850 and I bet you will automatically do MUCH better, and your games will be faster, hell, play 2 instead! I know its not what you are asking for, but it was my first response.

I am with this guy, playing 1500 is also much funner imo as it means you have to make real choices in your list and can't just spam all the good stuff. You actually have to think when making your list! Plus it's faster.

Sami
09-07-2012, 20:22
Your opponent is pretty much completely tailoring for anti-infantry. Spam lots of defilers (battlecannons make a mess of parking lots and no longer need to deal with 1/2 strength) and soul grinders as your main units (should be 8 in total), and then fill in the rest with resilliant troops. Getting Epidemius and a lot of plague marines in there will give your opponent a headache.

Also, anything 2K+ is no longer even remotely balanced thanks to the FOC changes.

BEARO
09-07-2012, 20:24
Twin FOC lol.
Don't care, terrible design.

Azazel
09-07-2012, 20:29
Haha thanks for all the feedback.

Although now you mention it I did do a lot better while we played 2k. I'll see if he's up for a rematch tonight (I'm sure he will be since he has been kicking my butt so much lately!).

youngsamwise
09-07-2012, 21:03
Lord in Terminator armour
5x plague marines w/plasma guns
5x plague marines w/plasma guns
3x terminators w/combi-meltas
2x obliterators
2x obliterators

Lord in Terminator armour
5x plague marines w/plasma guns
5x plague marines w/plasma guns
3x terminators w/combi-meltas
2x obliterators
2x obliterators

Fateweaver
Tzeentch Prince w/ wings, bolt and breath
5x plague bearers

Bloodthrister
5x plague bearers

Skyshield Landing Pad

Zero vehicles and lots of tank popping. Skyshield gets everyone into fateweaver's bubble quickly. Didn't get really precise on the points as I don't have both codexes and BRB in front of me.

MooseOnTheLoose
09-07-2012, 21:56
I am gonna suggest a little something different. With objectives and having too get out of his transports its not simply mass the big guns as suggested above. His heavy and elite slots are out too crack open anything you have hard so you do need some high strength fire power too counter for sure. His fast and hq spots look too be harassing the crap out of any infantry your bringing, and my guess is jumping your daemons once they come in, causing you too always have to react too his moves. His troops are just fast moving objective takers to me. Without knowing your collection/theme/etc makes it a bit harder too help in general, but for CSM options I would be looking more at your heavy spots. While yes you may want too look at more anti vehicle, I think you need a bit of a mix. Some obliterators that can focus on harder targets, but I really think a havoc squad with 4 heavy bolters would be extremely handy. Hold back some deep striking daemons until after he gets some objective (units out of transport) basically let him capture them, make him react too your counter strike instead. I would probably ignore the raiders in fact for any fire and focus on his heavy/fast/hq units too free up movement and dsing for you.

Zombiecrackers
09-07-2012, 23:43
Bring out a ton of Obliterators to take care of the pesky dark eldar tanks quickly then focus on wiping out the weak troops which shouldn't be to hard assuming they are on foot and their transports have been destroyed, move in with some Khorne Berzerkers easly smash the warriors in close :) For your HQ bring out a fully tooled up Chaos lord give him terminator armour give him a terminator bodyguard and slap the mark of Nurgle on the lot make them really hard to kill.

Johnmclane
10-07-2012, 00:01
Guessing he has dark lances on the raiders ?
People who says nurgle might be a bit off as the poisonweapons always wound on 4+, and he's really making those splinters count (w the splinterracks).
Hard list to play against. It's only lacking in CC. Might be able to exploit that?

agurus1
10-07-2012, 02:25
Mark of Nurgle is a bad idea against tons of splinter weaponry just saying... I advise getting several havoc units with autocannons to knock his transports out of the skies while your foot troops slog in and kill them in close assault! maybe run some termi's and their 2+ will make the DE cry lol

Scaryscarymushroom
10-07-2012, 03:06
I suggest min-maxing your units. Take 6 squads of 5 havocs with 1 heavy bolter each. Or maybe something with just a little more punch. Like 6 squads of 1 obliterator. I'm not certain what your options are, exactly, as I haven't seen chaos codices in a while. A single shot from one heavy weapon could take out a transport and leave the troops dead in the water. There's no need to commit more firepower to an attack than necessary. Splitting up your squads and anti-transport weapons allows you to capitalize on good luck by hitting only what you need to hit as many times as you need to hit it; while giving you no disadvantages for bad luck.

Then, fill out your troops (all 12 slots) with choices, none of which would be appealing for him to take out first. All the better if you can put even a weak anti-armor weapon in each one.

AlphariusOmegon20
10-07-2012, 10:24
Honestly, I'd go mass firepower. I'd look at Noise Marines and Dakka Armor.

I'd suggest between 6 to 10 NM per squad, to your taste, and load them up with Sonic Blasters. Take as many units like this as you can. Throw in a doom siren on the champ and a blastmaster in the unit. If he's in range to shoot you with his Splinter rifles at full range, then he's in range for you to shoot HIM with your sonic blasters. He'll regret charging you when you simo combat with a good majority of his list and the doom siren stands and shoots at the charging unit, along with the sonic blasters, a potential 30 wounds when he charges (you'll most likely cause about 20, in actuality).

Also take a look at a Destructor Pred with HB sponsons and Dakka Defilers. Armor of any kind should give him fits. You'll most likely have to ensure to throw some other Reaper Autocannons in the list somewhere too, to knock out that Razorwing. Unfortunately, the Blastmaster won't work on it in focused mode, and at S5, is too unreliable to knock it down in dispersed mode.

Corvus Corone
10-07-2012, 10:47
Take him by surprise: SPAM FLYING MC DAEMON PRINCES YES?

Azazel
10-07-2012, 11:14
Actually Corvus you'd be surprised how well this army deals with FMCs.

First his units on the Raiders can move 12", Rapid Fire 12" (Snap Shot) and they reroll their misses to Hit whilst on their Raider.

Then theres his Jetbikes who fly over them inflicting automatic Hits.

And last there is a Razorwing Jetfighter.


I played him again last night at 1750 points and won though, he had the Razorwing left and a Raider with 1 Hull point and 10 Warriors on it left. I had two units of 3 Horrors (one holding the Objective).
Was fun although a little luck the wrong way I could have lost pretty early on too. So back to the drawing board.

Corvus Corone
10-07-2012, 11:23
Actually Corvus you'd be surprised how well this army deals with FMCs.


That's why it'd be GOOD SURPRISE, YES?

No, you're quite right. Taking MCs in the face of that much poisoned shooting, auto-hitting and another flier isn't a good plan. I have to admit I didn't think too hard before suggesting it...

Azazel
10-07-2012, 11:30
You say that but my Daemon army pretty much depends on my FMCs success (my Horrors never really accomplish much). Perhaps thats where I'm going wrong. :)
Next time I'm gonna try my CSM on for size and see how they do.

Memnos
10-07-2012, 11:38
2500 points? And he relies on poison and fast moving stuff to keep away from you?

120 Flesh Hounds. Even if he advances in rapid fire range, each unit only kills around 5. If he isn't, he's potentially in range to charge his AV10 vehicles. Hitting on 3s, now.

If you get the charge off on one with only 10 guys left, you'll get 20 hits, 3 glances(dead) and 3 pens which cause it to be destroyed on a 6.

That even leaves you with many hundreds of points left. He just doesn't have the numbers to deal with the Flesh Hound list.

Kevlar
10-07-2012, 13:01
If he is doubling FOC do the same to him. Take 6 units of 3 Terminators with reapers and combi-plasma. Then take 18 obliterators. Thats 36 2+ saves with awesome firepower. Should drop his transports rather quickly, and then you just clean up the mess.

NealRC
10-07-2012, 13:19
If he is doubling FOC do the same to him. Take 6 units of 3 Terminators with reapers and combi-plasma. Then take 18 obliterators. Thats 36 2+ saves with awesome firepower. Should drop his transports rather quickly, and then you just clean up the mess.

I'm curious when people say things like this. Do you actually HAVE all those models? Or do you just proxy?

Kevlar
10-07-2012, 14:02
I'm curious when people say things like this. Do you actually HAVE all those models? Or do you just proxy?

I've got the terminators, all magentised with extra arms and the bolters are magnetized so I can switch the combi weapon off the top. I only own 9 obliterators currently, since we could never field any more than that, but I can see picking up some more for bigger games if they stay relevant in the new codex.

Memnos
10-07-2012, 14:16
I'm curious when people say things like this. Do you actually HAVE all those models? Or do you just proxy?

I'd proxy to start, but I have 60 Flesh Hounds, so my 120 Flesh Hound list wouldn't require a whole lot of proxying.

Kevlar
10-07-2012, 17:23
2500 points? And he relies on poison and fast moving stuff to keep away from you?

120 Flesh Hounds. Even if he advances in rapid fire range, each unit only kills around 5. If he isn't, he's potentially in range to charge his AV10 vehicles. Hitting on 3s, now.

If you get the charge off on one with only 10 guys left, you'll get 20 hits, 3 glances(dead) and 3 pens which cause it to be destroyed on a 6.

That even leaves you with many hundreds of points left. He just doesn't have the numbers to deal with the Flesh Hound list.


He would just fly away from you and shoot your units dead one at a time.

owen matthew
10-07-2012, 17:39
I am with this guy, playing 1500 is also much funner imo as it means you have to make real choices in your list and can't just spam all the good stuff. You actually have to think when making your list! Plus it's faster.

1500 point games.... that is where EVERY decision matters!

Craftworld
10-07-2012, 18:11
The most obvious answer, is that you should beat him at his own game: shooting. That being said, I would abuse the fact that you're playing such high-point games, and use the dual FOC to really crush him. I'm talking loads of obliterators, autocannon havocs, and possibly some terminators with plasma and reapers. Because given how soft his transports are - and that his troops are even softer - you'll absolutely tear him apart. However, you should be sure to take something to discourage him attempting to close with you, to tie up your shooting. Fortunately, the termies can do this quite well, while still being shooty. That, or you can field a MC or two from Codex: Daemons, to really make trying to make it a melee brawl, seem like a really poor idea.

AlphariusOmegon20
10-07-2012, 18:20
Here's the list I came up with for 2500.

Sorc Lord - Terminator Armor, Lash, TL Bolter

Terminator Squad - X4, 1 CombiFlamer, 2 CombiMelta, 1 Reaper, all have Power Maces. Has Land Raider with TL Bolter. Unit has IoS

Noise Marine Squad - X10, has Blastmaster, everyone else has Sonic Blaster. Champ has Doom Siren on top of Sonic Blaster, Power Mace and Melta Bombs

Noise Marine Squad - X10, has Blastmaster, everyone else has Sonic Blaster. Champ has Doom Siren on top of Sonic Blaster, Power Mace and Melta Bombs

Noise Marine Squad - X10, has Blastmaster, everyone else has Sonic Blaster. Champ has Doom Siren on top of Sonic Blaster, Power Mace and Melta Bombs

Havocs - X10, has 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Autocannons. Champ has Combi Flamer, Power Mace and Melta Bombs. Unit has IoS

Defiler - Reaper Autocannon, 2x CCW, Battle Cannon, CCW arm

Predator - Has Lascannon sponsons

Bastion - has quad gun upgrade

This list should put you at thereabouts 2450. It should work against that DE list.

Kaltenberg
10-07-2012, 20:39
Blastmasters are not that good agaisnt reaiders.
Another take:

Sorceror, mark of slannesh, lash
Sorceror, mark of slannesh, lash

3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)
3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)
3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)
3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)

6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters

2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators

2500 point straigth, 2 FoC used.
"Only" 12 obliterators
but that should easely take down those raiders and the sonic marines should then clear the content just as easely.

Scaryscarymushroom
10-07-2012, 21:04
I'm talking loads of obliterators, autocannon havocs, and possibly some terminators with plasma and reapers. Because given how soft his transports are - and that his troops are even softer - you'll absolutely tear him apart.

Speaking from my own experience, I endorse this idea. I used to consistently lose to dark eldar until I re-tooled my own army list to include lots of long range medium-high strength weapons. Then, I consistently won.

That being said, I still think that you should split up your big guns into smaller units. Don't just take 1 squad of havocs with 4 autocannons, or 1 squad of 3 oblits. You'll find that you do enough damage (with a large squad of big guns) to a single raider to kill it twice over in a single round of shooting, while his other raider is free to close the gap. The key is to split your fire; and split up the damage.

Lath-rael
10-07-2012, 22:24
Delete + edit: Ooops. Drunk posting is bad. What i said was complately irrevelant since i got the question wrong. GL against dark eldar with deamons. I think you can get IG allies. Take some Vendetta and kick his **** :P

Kevlar
11-07-2012, 01:19
Blastmasters are not that good agaisnt reaiders.
Another take:

Sorceror, mark of slannesh, lash
Sorceror, mark of slannesh, lash

3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)
3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)
3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)
3 terminators, reaper cannon, combi flamer (and power mauls, preferably)

6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters
6 Noise marines, 6 sonic blasters

2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators
2 obliterators

2500 point straigth, 2 FoC used.
"Only" 12 obliterators
but that should easely take down those raiders and the sonic marines should then clear the content just as easely.

I like your list, its the right idea. Just get rid of all those crappy noise marines. Change them all to 5x plague marines with 2x plasma rifle.

Chem-Dog
11-07-2012, 02:23
Blastmasters are not that good agaisnt reaiders.

Varied Frequency gives you two goes at a glance on a 5+ @ 36" (and 6....)
Single Frequency you a blast that glances on a 2 @48" and blasts are always at full strength now.
They ain't no slouch and can do a lot of damage to the contents in subsequent turns.


I like your list, its the right idea. Just get rid of all those crappy noise marines. Change them all to 5x plague marines with 2x plasma rifle.

You did see how many poisoned weapons there were, right?


Twin Linked Autocannons seem to be the ideal solution here, enough punch to seriously worry a Raider and reliable enough that you can expect results (penetrating on a 4+ and requiring 4+ to generate a wrecked result). Twin-linked gives you a slightly better chance of engaging the flyer too.
An army of Bolter wielding dudes shouldn't have too much to worry about from Raiders, every one of those shots is a threat to the transport and absolute death to most of those troops riding them. Stand your ground, make them come to you and concentrate your fire.

How's this for a nasty trick? A Terminator squad with a Reaper and four Combi-Flamers. Combined fire from the Reaper and Bolters should do for the Raider. Then his foot guys have to advance or hunker down in cover. If they hunker down, advance with those very threatening Flamers (killing on 3's!) if they advance, stay put and blast them. If at any point they choose to charge 4XD3 Wall of Death hits says not many will make it in to combat, if it doesn't kill them outright or stall the charge well within rapid fire range it'll thin the numbers tremendously.
If you feel extra vulnerable to things like Dark Lances and Blasters, invest in an Icon of Tzeench and double up to a full 10 man squad with two Reapers (and 8 Combi Flamers if you really want to).

I'd like to try it with Noise Marines actually, they have a pretty nasty Template attack and can hurl out lots of potentially glancing hits.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-07-2012, 06:01
Blastmasters are not that good agaisnt reaiders.


Exactly how is glancing on a 2, penning on a 3 "not that good"?


Varied Frequency gives you two goes at a glance on a 5+ @ 36" (and 6....)
Single Frequency you a blast that glances on a 2 @48" and blasts are always at full strength now.
They ain't no slouch and can do a lot of damage to the contents in subsequent turns.



You did see how many poisoned weapons there were, right?


Twin Linked Autocannons seem to be the ideal solution here, enough punch to seriously worry a Raider and reliable enough that you can expect results (penetrating on a 4+ and requiring 4+ to generate a wrecked result). Twin-linked gives you a slightly better chance of engaging the flyer too.
An army of Bolter wielding dudes shouldn't have too much to worry about from Raiders, every one of those shots is a threat to the transport and absolute death to most of those troops riding them. Stand your ground, make them come to you and concentrate your fire.

How's this for a nasty trick? A Terminator squad with a Reaper and four Combi-Flamers. Combined fire from the Reaper and Bolters should do for the Raider. Then his foot guys have to advance or hunker down in cover. If they hunker down, advance with those very threatening Flamers (killing on 3's!) if they advance, stay put and blast them. If at any point they choose to charge 4XD3 Wall of Death hits says not many will make it in to combat, if it doesn't kill them outright or stall the charge well within rapid fire range it'll thin the numbers tremendously.
If you feel extra vulnerable to things like Dark Lances and Blasters, invest in an Icon of Tzeench and double up to a full 10 man squad with two Reapers (and 8 Combi Flamers if you really want to).

I'd like to try it with Noise Marines actually, they have a pretty nasty Template attack and can hurl out lots of potentially glancing hits.

That was the exact reasoning I used to create the list I did. Sure you could go with the smaller 6 man units, but with that poison running around, I thought it might be better to have bigger units to soak up the inevitable casualties.

Memnos
11-07-2012, 07:17
He would just fly away from you and shoot your units dead one at a time.

No, he wouldn't.

Lucious
11-07-2012, 07:37
Wait for new codex is my best advice ( if you are still playing chaos and daemons still ), i mean you will tailor your force to beat your friends only to find you will need to change it again in 4-8 weeks.

Hivetyrant765
11-07-2012, 08:11
swarm him with termagants and warriors. theyll be able to glance the transports to death, and with that many bodies and, i dont see him tabling you very easily.