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Murfywat
11-07-2012, 05:52
So I just bought over 80 Mantic Ghouls and Zombies for my new Vampire Counts army, and I put together a few of them. I'm kind of miffed as I now realize its going to be impossible to ever make base contact with any units because of their outstreched arms.

How exactly does this work out in rules? It just scraems of causing issues and headaches. I'm new to fantasy (although I played 40k for years) and I do not recall ever having this issue with 40k. The fact units are so much bigger and tight packed in fantasy makes this even more irritating to me as I really do not know how i'm supposed to work out combats and base contact with my core melee units when their hands are blocking any unit from touching them (even my vampire lord...I'm not sure how i'm supposed to attach him to the unit of ghouls if its awkward, and im pretty sure its a HORRIBLE idea to let your lord walk around alone, not attached to anything so he can get singled out.

Any input on this concern?

mostlyharmless
11-07-2012, 06:50
You think that's bad? Try dealing with cold one knights, not only ranking them, but dealing with frontage with those pointy lances. I can understand the frustration, as the rules of 40k make base contact crucial, and the whole round base thing makes getting into base contact easier. This is not the case in fantasy. There are many units that can't actually be in base contact to the front. In these cases, at least with my own opponents, we slide the models themselves back a little on the movement tray, and use the movement tray to represent the frontage of the unit. Most fantasy players are pretty easy going about this kind of thing, because it's something that we all deal with. Every army has this problem, particularly knights with lances, and infantry with spears.

Eppe
11-07-2012, 06:55
We typically measure from the base, but when moving into base contact if they don't fit flush we agree that they had enough charge or whatever distance to be in base contact and then we move them as close as possible. The only issue I've had is flank charges that may or may not have been possible had the unit been in true base contact.

Ultimate Life Form
11-07-2012, 07:30
Well, not to sound rude, but it is your responsibility to assemble and glue the models in a way that minimizes those problems from the start. Using models that aren't meant for this purpose doesn't help much, either. With a bit of forethought much can be done in terms of model placement. In all the games I've played this has hardly ever been a problem.

However, granted some models simply are so cumbersome that it's more or less impossible to achieve this, and since you're new to fantasy we forgive you - after all we all had to learn some things the hard way. And some degree of inaccuracy is unavoidable with units sliding off hills and whatnot. What you do is keep a piece of cardboard ready that's the appropriate size and use it to mark the unit's true position. As for the Vampire, yes of yourse he belongs in a unit. Maybe you could amputate a few models so he has room to fit in? After all Undead tend to lose bodyparts every now and then...

Whaagnomore
11-07-2012, 08:13
Mantics models can rank up nicely. You just need to model them after position in their group, jot down a number under the base representing where they should stand.
If you have already modeled them... tough luck... :(

Urgat
11-07-2012, 10:06
You just pretend they fit. Everybody's had the problem before. It shouldn't pose any problem, ever, if you just measure from where they should be (if it's supposed to be in contact with an enemy unit, you measure from the enemy unit's edge, it's no rocket science).

Metacarpi
11-07-2012, 10:20
You just pretend they fit. Everybody's had the problem before. It shouldn't pose any problem, ever, if you just measure from where they should be (if it's supposed to be in contact with an enemy unit, you measure from the enemy unit's edge, it's no rocket science).

All of this right here, I agree with.

T10
11-07-2012, 11:10
Yeah. Zombies come on 20mm bases, so a 5 wide x 10 deep formation can be ASSUMED to have a 100 mm x 200 mm unit footprint even if the models spill out of this area.

One trick I use is to designate the right-most model in the front rank as the "leading model" and use this as a landmark for the supposed unit position.

If I need to determine forward arc I use the leading model's actual position and facing as a starting point and resolve the measuring as if the unit was neatly arranged behind and to the left of him.

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2012, 11:39
Well you assembled them :rolleyes:

Learn your lesson for next time :)
Obviously takes a fair bit longer to get things prepped and ready for assembly but in the long run it's worth it...provided you then don't get them mixed up.

Djekar
11-07-2012, 12:01
You're singing my song - stupid steeds of slaanesh and those tongues of exquisite torture hanging out an extra inch over the base...

I second what Urgat said, that's pretty much how our group has dealt with it.

Lorcryst
11-07-2012, 12:19
Gotta agree with ULF, modelling minis so that they rank perfectly (or as close as possible) is a skill that you have to learn in Fantasy ...

I still have my first Chaos Warriors (the old multi-part plastic "hunchbacks" from 5th ed), and well, ten of them are in "heroic" poses, lunging out of their bases and such ... after trying to rank them up, I've done the next 26 "correctly", and I use those "heroic" ones on the flanks or the rear of my units ... got twenty more of those to build, and you can be sure I'll manage to make them rank up.

But Urgat has a point too, when it's not possible to make "true" base to base contact, just push them as close as possible, and assume they are in contact for all measuring purpose ... a sheet of paper can help too, just draw squares of the appropriate size on it to resolve issues such as corners touching, who can fight who, and the like.

And I won't rant here about Mantic, suffice to say you paid for a certain quality, and now you're stuck with it :shifty:

Lord Solar Plexus
11-07-2012, 12:45
Getting models to rank up properly is very difficult to impossible but luckily it is not necessary. It also happens with every manufacturer's units. My Imperial Knights or Pistoliers have the very same problem. Perhaps it was my lack of "skill" in sliding them into their slotta bases...or perhaps I just get the quality I've paid for. :angel:

No base contact is not a problem at all. Just assume the unit is in contact. Half an inch or so causes no problem to find out who can fight.

AM1640
11-07-2012, 16:22
I am a little more forgiving than some with beable to easily identify spatially how 2 or more units will rank up without slamming them together if the models don't physically allow it. It would be nice if every person could get their models to be posed so that there is no overhang, however we do not live in such a utopia. You may have noticed I used the word slam earlier. I have been to tournaments where the opposing player will "help" me by moving my unit together with theirs to complete a charge. Unfortunately they do it in a manner that breaks lances, standards, knocks models over, etc. I call these types of players ham fisted clumsy ******. This is ofton the person I play against in the game that precedes painted model judging. To summarize, try and put models together so that they rank up neatly with no overhang, never move an opponents minatures for them, and please don't smash and continue mashing units together until they are in base contact. If they don't fit the first try don't keep pushing them with more force.

tmarichards
11-07-2012, 16:25
I tend to take the view that when it comes to working out the mechanics of the game, the base itself is all that matters (except for line of sight perhaps). Anything that goes on top of the base is purely aesthetic, so I'm not really fussed about this sort of problem. However, it's usually best to at least try to minimise it when assembling the models and make sure both you and your opponent are on the same page with regards to where the models "really" are in the game so that it doesn't create issues.

IcedCrow
11-07-2012, 18:13
I have many models that you can't get another unit in front of due to their pose. I have never had a problem with someone getting as close as possible and we know that they are in contact. I would have to question whether I would want to play against someone who was actually upset that my zombies or my cahos warriors whose arms and spikes and weapons come out too far couldn't be touched by another model and that this was somehow bad or wrong of me to have modeled them that way (when that's their default static pose).

Moss
11-07-2012, 19:08
I've seen people using half-inch or so "fillers" on the front end of their movement trays that basically look like wide-rimmed trays.

Like this:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgCzXlRABDb7u_IVYBke0bkoW7H48CA Nzv0yYCllC-Itytcxz-

Aesthetically it works, but you have to pretend that everyone is a half inch forward when working out templates and flank charges and such (really not too hard to do TBH).

DaemonReign
11-07-2012, 19:17
In this day and age everybody but the most insane (and White Dwarf battle-reports) are using movement-trays either way, so 'base contact' is pretty much theorethical all around.
It's not rocket science figuring out which models are in base Contact with what-ever models after all.

With some models it's quite enough of a pain in the **** to get them to rank up with each other.. Worrying about how they'll mesh with who-ever they're fighting is just taking things too far.
Make sure the units look good, and that they're painted and based in a synchronized and qualitative manner, and you're good.

Feefait
12-07-2012, 15:10
Playing 40k years ago I had an opponent tell me.my Hive Tyrant couldn't move under a bridge because I had modelled.him holding his gun the air and the tip of the gun contacted the bridge. Sometimes.models don't fit perfect into the jigsaw puzzle of the game. Just deal.with it, its really not a big deal.

Hicks
12-07-2012, 16:34
I just use a small token that shows the real position of the unit. It's not as bad as managing to rank up some units as mostlyharmless said. My squig herds are really the worse for that, but for not being able to make contact, I think nothing can beat genestealers. I have to move mine backwards when they charge and even then I have to use my imagination for most of the unit because of their stupid arms.