PDA

View Full Version : Possible Thousand Sons retcon?



mrtn
11-07-2012, 10:24
I've read a bit in the book and developed the theory that the Thousand Sons may be retconned in the new codex. :shifty:


Escaping to the Eye of Terror, the legion continued their magical studies, although they were soon wracked by mutations. Disturbed by their decline, a cabal, led by the great sorcerer Ahriman, risked the wrath of their, now daemonic, Primarch to cast a spell known as the Rubric. The spell instead brought greater changes to the legion and the cabal was banished by the enraged Primarch, forced to scatter and fight for different Traitor Legions.

No mention of dust filled empty armour there... :eek:
It's certainly less specific than
the Death Guard fell under the sway of Nurgle, the lord of Corruption, and became the first of all the Plague Marines.

Personally I would welcome this change, since I think that Tzeentchian marines should be mutated, but I can totally see if old TS players are enraged by it.

Am I on to something? :)

Chrysis
11-07-2012, 10:30
While it doesn't mention dust filled armour, it is certainly accurate to say that the rubric brought greater changes. I'd certainly consider having my body turned to dust and my free will suppressed to be a greater change than growing an extra arm or two.

AndrewGPaul
11-07-2012, 10:59
To be honest, I think this is yet another example of someone reading far too much into a miniscule change of wording. After all, the rulebook sin't going to cover every piddly little detail; Codex: Chaos Space Marines is where you should look for details of the Traitor legions, after all.

Having said that, I always thought the description of post-Rubric Thousand Sons was overly restrictive. Given the precedents of the Tau, Tyranids and Necrons, I wouldn't be surprised to see the background being "opened up" to allow more variety. Thousand Sons who can wield anything other than a boltgun would be nice to have again, for one thing.

On the other hand, while as you say "Tzeentchian marines should be mutated", "Tzeentchian Marines" is not the same thing as "Thousand Sons Marines" (the same goes for Death Guard and Plague Marines, World Eaters and Khorne Berserkers and Emperor's Children and Noise Marines). Even if the Thousand Sons legion is still described as being made up entirely of sorcerors and automata, there's still plenty of room for Chaos Marines in pastel pink and blue armour with three arms, tentacles and a face in their torso.

Scammel
11-07-2012, 11:55
The 'Brotherhood of Sorcerers' special rule definitely strikes me as opening up a non-Rubric TS unit, though I suspect what's more likely to happen is that we'll see a unit that consists of Sorcerers with optional Rubric bodyguards. Looking to the Black Library, ATS suggests a much higher ratio of psykers to non-psykers than many of us might have previously thought (in fact, I don't think any non-psyker Sons feature at all), but on the other hand Rubrics feature extensively in BftF.

Vepr
11-07-2012, 17:58
I would hope that they don't change that too much. I always thought that Thousand Sons had some of the coolest fluff and the idea of spirit animated armor filled with dust was fascinating. I have even contemplated starting a Thousand Sons army with the new Chaos release because I am getting a bit dejected when it comes to my Tyranids. If they change a lot of the fluff around the rubric and Thousand Sons (please Ward control yourself) I don't think I would be as interested in playing the army.

Furls
11-07-2012, 18:16
I remember the days when the Thousand Sons were not dust buckets; I therefore do not mind if they return to their previous fleshy selves. However I agree that this is probably something that is being read into too much.

The story in the main rulebook page 229 about a Brother-Captain Karlsen was actually a story of a Thousand Son Space Marine before they became dust buckets in the flesh. It was a story that accompanied an Epic Battle report that reappeared in the Epic Battles book.

Grimbad
11-07-2012, 19:31
The story in the main rulebook page 229 about a Brother-Captain Karlsen was actually a story of a Thousand Son Space Marine before they became dust buckets in the flesh. It was a story that accompanied an Epic Battle report that reappeared in the Epic Battles book.

I don't have the new book yet, but surely they didn't take all the Thousand Sons parts out of the story? Those were a sizeable chunk of the original.

Garanaul the Black
12-07-2012, 01:47
The 'Brotherhood of Sorcerers' special rule definitely strikes me as opening up a non-Rubric TS unit

Could you describe this rule for those of us who are waiting for the starter set book? :shifty:

Thank you!

G

EvilFuzzyDoom
12-07-2012, 01:51
Heh. Dust buckets.

Thoth62
12-07-2012, 01:54
Could you describe this rule for those of us who are waiting for the starter set book? :shifty:

Thank you!

G

No. You're not allowed to ask for specific rules on the forum, just like we're not allowed to give them to you. I can say that it's exactly the same as the Brotherhood of Psykers rule in the Grey Knights codex though. It's just now a USR. ;)

Garanaul the Black
12-07-2012, 02:15
Aha, that's all I needed, thank you!


I have a feeling that whatever changes to background or rules that are going to arise from the release of the new Codex (and 6th) will be very welcome. I am doing my best to remain blindly optimistic, though!


G

NitrosOkay
12-07-2012, 02:38
Being turned to dust seems like greater changes to me.

Whatever happens I'm not too concerned, at the end of the day they'll still be magic wielding ego-maniacal sorcerors of Tzeentch.

Thoth62
12-07-2012, 02:44
Glad to help G! I've been a Thousand Sons player since roughly the beginning of 4th edition. As such, I'm preparing for the worst, but like you I plan on remaining blindly (if not ignorantly) optimistic. I remember it being said years ago on these very forums.

"Being a Thousand Sons player isn't a gaming choice. It's a state of mind."

White_13oy
12-07-2012, 03:14
I'm hoping that TS chosen are a unit of sorcerers that can do some crazy stuff. If they brought back the all is dust rule, I think that would make them good for their point cost.

Excessus
12-07-2012, 03:51
I remember the days when the Thousand Sons were not dust buckets; I therefore do not mind if they return to their previous fleshy selves. However I agree that this is probably something that is being read into too much.
You mean back in Rogue Trader? They have been dust buckets since Ahriman got introduced in 2nd ed...although they were well-equipped dust buckets back then...

Daedalus81
12-07-2012, 04:47
You mean back in Rogue Trader? They have been dust buckets since Ahriman got introduced in 2nd ed...although they were well-equipped dust buckets back then...

From the sounds of it they will be getting some options back. :)

MajorWesJanson
12-07-2012, 06:36
The 'Brotherhood of Sorcerers' special rule definitely strikes me as opening up a non-Rubric TS unit, though I suspect what's more likely to happen is that we'll see a unit that consists of Sorcerers with optional Rubric bodyguards. Looking to the Black Library, ATS suggests a much higher ratio of psykers to non-psykers than many of us might have previously thought (in fact, I don't think any non-psyker Sons feature at all), but on the other hand Rubrics feature extensively in BftF.

With cultists in the new book, and Typhus converting them to plague zombies if desired. I could see Ahriman letting you replace cultists with renegade psykers, making a unit like the Inq Henchmen or IG psyker squad.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-07-2012, 06:49
I wouldn't mind seeing some changes to them. I thinly the biggest change needed is with the rules rather than the fluff (it would be nice to not have GW deliberately make them boring) opening up the fluff a little more and giving people some options with them would be great as well. I do thinly its probably reading too much into a few lines of text though.

MajorWesJanson
12-07-2012, 07:44
Ruleswise, if you want to change Tzeentch, why not change the mark of tzeentch from being an inv save to being +1 psychic mastery level. Units with it would then use the brotherhood or sorcerers rule, leaders would gain a bit of psychic ability, and sorcerers of tzeentch would be more powerful. Price it appropriately, and it would be a unique and interesting option. Maybe price marks based on models, rather than a set price.

Furls
12-07-2012, 18:22
The Karlsen story in the rulebook does indeed take out all of the Thousand Son bits.

I have loved the Thousand Sons since I started playing Space Marine (older name for Epic) in 1994. Ahriman wasn't even a character back then. I would be more than happy if we got extra psychic powers or other nifty stuff. But Thousand Sons in most editions seem to be given a kick in the dust filled groin area. Which therefore shouldn't hurt but it does!

Nurgling Chieftain
12-07-2012, 19:18
Ruleswise, if you want to change Tzeentch, why not change the mark of tzeentch from being an inv save to being +1 psychic mastery level.Right now it does both those things. :confused:

Daedalus81
12-07-2012, 19:27
Right now it does both those things. :confused:

Wait - it does?

Nurgling Chieftain
12-07-2012, 19:34
Yup. It adds +1 to everybody's invulnerable save, it allows HQ sorcerors and DP's to buy an extra psychic power, and, most notably for this discussion, it allows any psyker possessing the mark to use two psychic powers per turn - which is explicitly equivalent to having mastery level 2 in the new rules (except that your number of powers is based on how many you bought rather than how many you were eligible to buy).

...It won't make a non-psyker into a psyker, though, if that's what you meant.

Daedalus81
12-07-2012, 19:50
Ok cool - so my tzeentch HQ can buy two powers, generate 2 charges, and swap out for 2 BRB powers. I like it - too bad it didn't do the same for aspiring sorcerers. :P

Azzy
12-07-2012, 20:34
Heh. Dust buckets.

Given the shape of their helmets, wouldn't "Dust Bunnies" be more fitting?

RunepriestRidcully
12-07-2012, 21:05
Nah, Khorne's Blood bunnies have the market on rabbit themes/chappy:40,000.

Nurgling Chieftain
12-07-2012, 21:06
The aspiring sorceror still gets Warp Charge 2, but only one power.

AndrewGPaul
13-07-2012, 00:13
What do you mean, "take out the Thousand Son bits"? Are you perhaps getting confused? There were two stories involving Brother-Captain Karlsen; the one with him reviewing all his old memories was the other one. Not sure when it appeared, but it must have been in a later publication. The story in the current rulebook first appeared in White Dwarf 156, as the epilogue to the Chaos at Kadavah battle report.

TheCaptain
14-07-2012, 09:11
Im pretty sure that has always been the thousand sons fluff since late 2nd Ed, the only really active marines were part of the cabal that were banished. They pretty much became the navigators of the traitor fleets of other legions

Xandros
14-07-2012, 11:26
What do you mean, "take out the Thousand Son bits"? Are you perhaps getting confused? There were two stories involving Brother-Captain Karlsen; the one with him reviewing all his old memories was the other one. Not sure when it appeared, but it must have been in a later publication. The story in the current rulebook first appeared in White Dwarf 156, as the epilogue to the Chaos at Kadavah battle report.

The earliest appearance of Brother-Sorcerer Karlsen reviewing his memories was to my knowledge in the 2nd edition Wargear book.

So he's got another story which in the rulebook now? Which page is that on?

AndrewGPaul
14-07-2012, 12:06
I remember the days when the Thousand Sons were not dust buckets; I therefore do not mind if they return to their previous fleshy selves. However I agree that this is probably something that is being read into too much.

The story in the main rulebook page 229 about a Brother-Captain Karlsen was actually a story of a Thousand Son Space Marine before they became dust buckets in the flesh. It was a story that accompanied an Epic Battle report that reappeared in the Epic Battles book.

Like I said, The Long War first appeared in WD 156 - at least ten months before 2nd edition 40K appeared. The story you're thinking about (entitled Dark Communion) referred to the events of The Long War as one of the memories he would keep, so clearly came later. Perhaps that "later" was only twenty minutes for Bill King writing them, but there was definitely a big gap in publication dates.

I was sure Dark Communion appeared in White Dwarf before bing in the Wargear book, but now I'm not so sure.

All this talk makes me want to convert up a miniature of Brother Captain Karlsen now. I was going to have Ahriman lead my Thousand Sons squad, but now I'm not so sure.

Xandros
14-07-2012, 12:41
How will you convert him? A bolter and a tentacle aren't the usual armament for a sorcerer.

AndrewGPaul
14-07-2012, 12:49
The rules are irrelevant - they can, after all, be changed. :) Given that I'm considering adding some special weapons and a heavy weapon to the squad, I doubt they'll hit the table as actual Thousand Sons. Probably a Chaos Lord and a squad of Chaos Space Marines as allies to my Imperial Guard.

Chem-Dog
14-07-2012, 13:07
While it doesn't mention dust filled armour, it is certainly accurate to say that the rubric brought greater changes. I'd certainly consider having my body turned to dust and my free will suppressed to be a greater change than growing an extra arm or two.

I think it's more one of those "Careful what you wish for" things. Ahriman sets about using the Rubric to cure his Legion fo the terrible fleshy curse they are afflicted with and does so, but not without certain.... Drawbacks. Meanwhile, in the Warp, Tzeench is giving it his best "Just as Planned" face.



On the other hand, while as you say "Tzeentchian marines should be mutated", "Tzeentchian Marines" is not the same thing as "Thousand Sons Marines" (the same goes for Death Guard and Plague Marines, World Eaters and Khorne Berserkers and Emperor's Children and Noise Marines). Even if the Thousand Sons legion is still described as being made up entirely of sorcerors and automata, there's still plenty of room for Chaos Marines in pastel pink and blue armour with three arms, tentacles and a face in their torso.

This. It's one of the biggest failings of the current "Mark" system IMO, You can't make Tzeench Marines, you can make poor knock-offs of Rubric Marines. Yes, the Rubric reverberates through time so that anyone latterly coming to the Legion will go Dusty or power-up to Super Sorcerer levels, but there's so much scope for those who've embraced the warping power of eternal change. On the Same Token, all of the "Cult" Marine squads require extra gubbins to make them "Different" you might as well abandon the Mark System for them altogether, and simply present their altered stats.

Before the last codex hit us I was sincerely hoping that TS Sorcerers would gain access to a range of powers that let them buff their attendant Rubric brethren, like the effect of "The Sorcerer Commands" but with more options.
Looking at receiving a heavy round of High Power Shooting? Turn your Rubrics' save into an invulnerable.
Need to wheedle your enemies out of cover? Enchant the bolters of your Automatons with warp-spawned fire.
Need to drop a Tank pronto? Use your sorcery to combine the fire of the unit into a single devastating blast. And so on....