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Vipoid
11-07-2012, 16:51
I'm not a Dwarf player, so I apologise in advance if this is a silly question.

Basically, I was just wondering if you could build a reasonably competitive Dwarf army, without including any War Machines?

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2012, 16:55
Nope, war machines are the only thing that make dwarves the least bit competitive.

The above is of course sarcasm.
Of course you can, infantry hoard lists do work and can be plenty competitive enough.

One way is to just build a regular dwarf army, then take out all the war machines.
Now you have a huge amount of points to spend on more troops.

AM1640
11-07-2012, 16:58
You betcha. As long as you don't consider the anvil a war machine.

The bearded one
11-07-2012, 17:02
You could put down 160 dwarf warriors with great weapons and still have 900 points to spare :)

Malorian
11-07-2012, 17:26
A fellow warseer member, amysrevenge, caught me offguard in a tournament where he only had infantry.

My orcs lined up against his dwarfs and then all of a sudden he used his banner to get a free move before the game and we were looking at first turn combat (meeting engagement). I was lucky he wasn't flanking me!

Solegga
11-07-2012, 17:44
Yeah... and he'll have to play vs skaven and be stuck there forever or DEs or WEs who'll be running around him and laughing with his Movement 3... Plus all heavy magic lists and buffs are going to laugh at them...

PS. Twice I tried having 2 Grudge Throwers and the Anvil, along with 2 hordes of 40 Warriors w/GW and 33 Quarrelers w/GW. Looked intimidating initially. The first time against WoC and the 2nd against DEs. Well, WoC butchered me the moment we came into contact (I lasted 1st round of Combat and flew in the 2nd), not counting the fact that Marauders cost so much less for what they have vs the dwarf warrior w/GW. The DEs on the other hand had fun with the flaming Cage and Buffs from the Cauldron, along with multiple Charges the horde formation provides. All striking first and diminishing the number of attacks you get back...

Dwarf Infantry may look tenacious but is a very slow and out-maneuverable army imo. Never fielded it again, started winning too ;)

amysrevenge
11-07-2012, 17:57
You betcha. As long as you don't consider the anvil a war machine.

This. Stollaz + Anvil + scouting GW combat blocks means you can win the movement war most of the time, and movement is where you win at warhammer.

Oogie boogie boss
11-07-2012, 18:37
Take enough quarrellers and handgunners to force the enemy into combat/neutralise the chaff and then let them break themselves on your blocks. You don't need any war machines provided you take enough BS to make simply avoiding you less than promising. They're gonna have to close eventually if they want any VPs.

Snake1311
11-07-2012, 18:40
Short answer is no. You will get outmanouvered.

Long answer is still no - there are mitigating factors, which make it sound like a 'maybe' (e.g. Anvil + strollaz), but the fact is there are a bunch of armies that outpeform dwarfs in close combat for cost.

The second you face a WoC player with no warmachines, its gg.

They are not the only ones, just the most obvious example.

Skopey
12-07-2012, 08:56
Aye. I often use the Strollaz' rune + anvil + scout longbeards with out warmachines in my games with My friends Chaos deamon or warrior army and it works surprisingly well once you get used to it. Ive even rolled high elves with it fairly easily as he had less time to manouver his troops where he wanted them. Although Not a tournament player myself my friend i usually play against is a very competent warhammer player. But when i use this set up it does seem to throw him off his game a bit. As it has a few other friends that still play (the elf player included :D).

Soundwave
12-07-2012, 14:31
Yes for sure! I have been on the brunt of one mainly consisting of thunderers and warriors was not pretty!

eron12
12-07-2012, 14:45
I'm not a Dwarf player, so I apologise in advance if this is a silly question.

Basically, I was just wondering if you could build a reasonably competitive Dwarf army, without including any War Machines?

I've tried no warmachne lists twice, and they have led to two of my three defeats with dwarfs. So at the moment I don't seem to be able to build a reasonably competitive no war machne army, but others might.

Hicks
12-07-2012, 16:46
Warmachines are what Dwafs have to kill all the big nasties that just laugh at our infantry in combat, before they can reach our lines. Take that away and you will probably have a lot of big problems pretty quickly. Also, I kinda feel that our warmachines are the only reason some armies don't just sit back and shoot us. If they want the cannon balls to stop raining on them, they have to come and engage us. without this, our infantry would see much less combat.

Leogun_91
12-07-2012, 16:59
Warmachines can be replaced with thunderers/quarrelers which will still be fairly effective in doing what you had the warmachines for, they will however do it at a higher cost (though options for shields/greatweapons coupled with good WS and T makes for ranged troops that doesn't need babysitting that much). Most of the time you can replace the warmachines with something else that is somewhat less effective, but there are a few times when even that seems impossible...ethereal units for example will be a pain when you have no form of ranged magic attacks (alright you can take Master rune of Flight but that's far from enough).

It can be done and it can work but I advise against it if you wish to play competitive games, if you just want to play friendly games but still have a chance to win it should be no problem using dwarfs without warmachines.

Soundwave
12-07-2012, 17:07
I can not see how dwarven warmachines can be more effective against thunderers that do not miss fire and are quiet capable of combat?

Boreas_NL
12-07-2012, 20:01
I have quite a sizable Dwarf army myself and I have fielded the 'bearded steamroller' on several occasions and seldom failed to impress.

Leave your Thunderers at home and go for an all-combat army. Adding Miners and Rangers might help, as will Strollaz banner... You are certain to surprise your opponents.

Montegue
14-07-2012, 06:36
It could be done, but I don't recommend it. We have no magic phase to speak of, so we cannot turn combat in our favor via buffs and Hexes. Artillery helps us arrange advantageous combat in the late game.

I can imagine a "surround and conquer" strategy, though, using rangers, Miners, and perhaps Strollaz to get into combat quickly, but you need to make sure you go strong against week and roll up a flank very early, or you will be completely outmaneuvered. We can do a tank-star with characters in front of hammerers, but it's no where near as killy as other 'stars. The Oath Stone is tempting, but no pursuit means enemy models just rally and come back for more.

Blast Hardcheese
14-07-2012, 06:49
In all my years playing dwarfs (stares at his 5th edition book and shudders) I have fielded a combat assault army maybe less than 10 times. The game against WE was the most painful one I have ever played, literally just watching my units struggle as they got turned into pincushions. I had some success against an Empire army who I assumed would have been able to out shoot me. Basically, it depends on the foe in my opinion. Anything big that flies is a huge problem, as it will eat most units and if you use slayers to counter, well they are jogging a brisk 6' after something going 20'. As for the units I hate most, ethereal ones, I need war machines to deal with Hexwraiths and the like. Magical grapeshot solves a lot of problems.

GrandmasterWang
16-07-2012, 10:52
Can certainly be done (without anvil even) but you will find some armies very challenging to beat. (shooty dark elves shudder). I personally love my all infantry dwarf army and have pulled off some massive wins against very competitive armies. Its funny as running an all infantry army people still expect you to plop down a warmachine.

Warriors of chaos can certainly fall to an all infantry dwarf army (not gg to whoever said that). Tough match up but the stunties can do it. Remember no war machines doesnt mean no shooting!!!!

When running no warmachines I do however think you should have some x factor to help especially if you go no quarrellers/thunderers. Whether this is scouting axemen or 3 squads of miners or whatever, something to make the opponent think twice is necessary. Running no shooting which ive done makes strollaz mandatory. Anvil helps a lot as it will be a long way from your guys but its not mandatory and is a sitting duck (your guys will be way ahead, in the thick of it, not guarding) vs some armies with sneaky stuff (ambushing beastmen, scouting skinks, flying killers etc)

Have a go, see if you like the playstyle. Also, most opponents seem to like to face an agressive dwarf army while my pure shooting army can cause some groans. No one has ever groaned vs my doughty strollaz!!! (not before the first turn anyway)

Morax
16-07-2012, 16:49
I've seen a 3k dwarf list with scouting long beard axe men, a second unit of scounting long beard axe men from bugman, an anvil and a few more odds and ends absolutely wreck competitive dark elves and competitive WoC. It's absolutely possible to run without warmachines, and it's even possible to do it competitively. Don't let the nay sayers turn you off of the idea.

Snake1311
16-07-2012, 20:52
I've seen a 3k dwarf list with scouting long beard axe men, a second unit of scounting long beard axe men from bugman, an anvil and a few more odds and ends absolutely wreck competitive dark elves and competitive WoC. It's absolutely possible to run without warmachines, and it's even possible to do it competitively. Don't let the nay sayers turn you off of the idea.

The Anvil is a warmachine...