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View Full Version : In Lieu of Sisters: How can I get over hating Marines



Desalbert
12-07-2012, 14:20
Hey everyone! I've posted before about starting a new non-horde army for 6th edition, and while my heart lies with Sisters of Battle, they will not be feasible for me until they get a codex and some plastics.

That said, I have to take on the next best thing. I've narrowed things down to the other "religion-based" factions and am trying to sort through Chaos Daemons, Grey Knights and Space Marines. The thing is, while Marines (of all types) would fit my need for a compact army and would likely appeal to my Knighthood and religious interests, I can't see myself playing them! Why? Because I used to be an Orks player way back around '98, and secondly, because I never choose the same side as the "protagonist" in any story-- and the marines are certainly 40k's main character.

So this is why I'm considering Chaos Daemons, when perhaps I shouldn't be... Maybe I should play Grey Knights or a Marine chapter because they fit my checklist-- aside from being Marines...As playing Marines for me feels like putting on a jersey of an arch-rival sports team, I wonder if there is any way I can get over my Marine hatred. Or is my dislike justified?

Should I swallow my warhammerspeciesism and choose the army that would make for the better gaming experience, or should I again disband the notion of the Marines and find myself on the darkside with Daemons.

TLDR: How can I get over my hatred of Marines? Or should I even try?

IcedCrow
12-07-2012, 14:22
My opinion is the more people turning away from marines the better. They already make up the vast majority of armies played. Seeing other armies on the table is nice.

Desalbert
12-07-2012, 14:43
My opinion is the more people turning away from marines the better. They already make up the vast majority of armies played. Seeing other armies on the table is nice.

I feel you're not alone in that opinion. Score 1 vote for Daemons-- Lord knows I'm not likely to want to just be another face in the Marine-crowd.

Hendarion
12-07-2012, 14:51
Deamons, clear vote :p No need to try not hating Marines, it's ok ;)

Memnos
12-07-2012, 14:54
Pick up Know No Fear.

Read it.

If that doesn't get you over your Marine hatred, nothing will.

Desalbert
12-07-2012, 14:56
Pick up Know No Fear.

Read it.

If that doesn't get you over your Marine hatred, nothing will.

Excellent! I take up this challenge, and will see what comes of it! Thanks for the recommendation!

Mushkilla
12-07-2012, 15:24
Chaos Daemons are actually the protagonists of 40k, the authors have just never been good at conveying this.

Trapped in another dimension.
Persecuted wherever they go.
Not even death can set them free.
Yet valiantly they keep striving for a better life amongst the stars.

I'm mean daemons only kill people because they are trying to escape. Grey knights do it for fun:

"Basically one story in the new Grey Knight Codex lists the Grey Knights as coming across a planet wherein a powerful daemonblade resided - one so powerful that it was corrupting the planet around the artifact. There was a convent of Sisters near the site whose faith was keeping them pure and untouched by the taint, and instead of asking for the Sisters' assistance the Grey Knights proceeded to slaughter them all, desecrate the bodies, and then smear the blood of the Sisters all over their armor to protect them from the corruption, then go about systematically destroying everything on the planet and taking the daemon sword for themselves. All after the codex stating literally that their faith is strong enough to protect them from any kind of daemonic corruption."

In the Grim Darkness of the 41st millennium there is only Matt Ward (and he doesn't like sisters). :)

Grimmeth
12-07-2012, 15:31
Chaos Daemons are actually the protagonists of 40k, the authors have just never been good at conveying this.

Trapped in another dimension.
Persecuted wherever they go.
Not even death can set them free.
Yet valiantly they keep striving for a better life amongst the stars.

I'm mean daemons only kill people because they are trying to escape. Grey knights do it for fun:

"Basically one story in the new Grey Knight Codex lists the Grey Knights as coming across a planet wherein a powerful daemonblade resided - one so powerful that it was corrupting the planet around the artifact. There was a convent of Sisters near the site whose faith was keeping them pure and untouched by the taint, and instead of asking for the Sisters' assistance the Grey Knights proceeded to slaughter them all, desecrate the bodies, and then smear the blood of the Sisters all over their armor to protect them from the corruption, then go about systematically destroying everything on the planet and taking the daemon sword for themselves. All after the codex stating literally that their faith is strong enough to protect them from any kind of daemonic corruption."

In the Grim Darkness of the 41st millennium there is only Matt Ward (and he doesn't like sisters). :)

I was under the impression that the real protagonists of 40k were the Alpha Legion, as well as the antagonists, bystanders, bad guys, good guys and everything in between.

Anywho, I'm trying to think of Marine Chapters who are more closely aligned to the Ecclesiarchy than the standard Ultramarines etc. Space Marines are a massively diverse bunch, and you might find where one chapter really annoys you another you might really like?

Mushkilla
12-07-2012, 15:39
I was under the impression that the real protagonists of 40k were the Alpha Legion.

SHHHHHHHhhhhh!... you can't go blurting stuff like that out! ... Alpha who? What are you on about? ... Grimmith has clearly lost his mind and nothing he says should be taken seriously, especially if it's about Alphas Legion. :)

Nothing to see here...hmm...dedumm...(whistles)

Lord Damocles
12-07-2012, 15:39
In the Grim Darkness of the 41st millennium there is only Matt Ward (and he doesn't like sisters). :)
On the plus side, the Bloodtide event you 'describe' didn't go anything like that...


...and that's not how you spell his name...


:shifty:

Draconis
12-07-2012, 16:00
Thats not a plus side. Anyway OP, have you thought about a Word Bearer's army then for CSM? New codex supposedly soon and they are righteous zealots with some great background. Theres a guy who wrote a story blog with every battle he took, used to be under the battle rep section, but he started a website for them. If you're interested, I'll try to dig the site up for ya.

Juggernaut246
12-07-2012, 16:20
Looking into Chaos Space marines might be good , and you get daemons as battle brothers so you can ally them. A word bearers army or a cult army dedicated to one of the gods would fit the bill quite nicely. While they are marines, they are spikey and therefore evil :P

Of course i am naturally biased because I play a Word Bearers army myself.

Charistoph
12-07-2012, 17:02
I almost want to suggest grabbing the Black Templars codex and bits and make up your own chapter who happen to be as much zealots for the Emperor as the Sisters, but oddly, they don't play well with the Sisters like other Marines.

Alternatively, look for an army that will work with the Sisters on at least a reasonable level and use the Sisters for Allies while you have a small collection?

As for Daemons, rarely seen at my LGS, though I know of one or two, and I believe they are looking forward to Allying in some Chaos Marines.

Draconis
12-07-2012, 17:10
after all, papa nurgle calls....

TheDungen
12-07-2012, 17:18
Why not consider CSM? Wordbearers are very much religious. And they're not marines in that they're the antagonist instead of the protagonist but still the same in many aspects. And with the new ally rules you cna even have oth wordbearers and the demons you already considered, using the wordbearers to make them even more religious.

Desalbert
12-07-2012, 17:37
Why not consider CSM? Wordbearers are very much religious. And they're not marines in that they're the antagonist instead of the protagonist but still the same in many aspects. And with the new ally rules you cna even have oth wordbearers and the demons you already considered, using the wordbearers to make them even more religious.

Yes, I am considering Wordbearers-- reading their backstory has me intrigued, no doubt. I'll be giving them a great deal of thought. Lorgar seems like a highly reasonable, intelligent villain to me, which is appealing. Not blood crazed like other Chaos fools!

As well, Black Templars do seem a more interesting version of Marines. Some of their special rules put a big witch-hunt-crusaders-are-awesome smile on my face. I am considering them as well... Kind of remind me of my beloved Brettonia in Fantasy (or, at least, how I see my Brettonia-- superstitious, weighed down by 'red-tape' and religiously motivated...)

Good offerings guys, thankyou. Also digging into a copy of the Daemons 'dex to see if I can find some suitability there :)

Draconis
12-07-2012, 17:48
Hence why they are not tied to any specific chaos god :)

Carlosophy
12-07-2012, 17:59
Yes, I am considering Wordbearers-- reading their backstory has me intrigued, no doubt. I'll be giving them a great deal of thought. Lorgar seems like a highly reasonable, intelligent villain to me, which is appealing. Not blood crazed like other Chaos fools!

As well, Black Templars do seem a more interesting version of Marines. Some of their special rules put a big witch-hunt-crusaders-are-awesome smile on my face. I am considering them as well... Kind of remind me of my beloved Brettonia in Fantasy (or, at least, how I see my Brettonia-- superstitious, weighed down by 'red-tape' and religiously motivated...)

Good offerings guys, thankyou. Also digging into a copy of the Daemons 'dex to see if I can find some suitability there :)

Read First Heretic. You'll want a Word Bearers army then!

Have you not thought of doing Orks again? If ever there was a 2-fingered salute to the beakies it's a good Waagh! Religion? Kult of Speed (converted to orky knights!), Ghazhkull: Prophet of the Waagh etc.

Desalbert
12-07-2012, 18:07
Read First Heretic. You'll want a Word Bearers army then!

Have you not thought of doing Orks again? If ever there was a 2-fingered salute to the beakies it's a good Waagh! Religion? Kult of Speed (converted to orky knights!), Ghazhkull: Prophet of the Waagh etc.

Aye, of course I have thought about Orks again, (as any classic ork player should) but the horde nature of the army is too difficult to allow me to enjoy the game (as a player with physical disabilities). So to best enjoy the game I think a more compact army is what I need.

Anyone want to pitch me on Grey Knights, or are they as Overpowered and Overpopulated as everyone would have us imagine?

Draconis
12-07-2012, 18:15
Father Nurgle becons.... Unify the human race under the banner of Chaos. Only then will we have the power to stand up and fight all our enemies.



Also, Nids. Their religion? To the pantry. They have to stock their food. They pray to the food gods.

Charistoph
12-07-2012, 18:23
Yes, I am considering Wordbearers-- reading their backstory has me intrigued, no doubt. I'll be giving them a great deal of thought. Lorgar seems like a highly reasonable, intelligent villain to me, which is appealing. Not blood crazed like other Chaos fools!

As well, Black Templars do seem a more interesting version of Marines. Some of their special rules put a big witch-hunt-crusaders-are-awesome smile on my face. I am considering them as well... Kind of remind me of my beloved Brettonia in Fantasy (or, at least, how I see my Brettonia-- superstitious, weighed down by 'red-tape' and religiously motivated...)

Good offerings guys, thankyou. Also digging into a copy of the Daemons 'dex to see if I can find some suitability there :)

Why not both Templars and Word Bearers... sort of. Basically make a DIY Chapter that when you are playing a loyal company, they act like Templars. But, they also have a company that has been converted by the Word Bearers and have just recently begun their Fall. Use a Chaos Lord built from a Chaplain as a Dark Apostle to lead the latter and your Champion to lead the former.


Anyone want to pitch me on Grey Knights, or are they as Overpowered and Overpopulated as everyone would have us imagine?

Sadly, not I. My local group has quite a few players of them around, so I wouldn't recommend the, here. BUT, I'm not local to you so I have no idea what you see on a weekly basis.

althathir
12-07-2012, 18:49
Desalbert - I would suggest Chaos Marines for a few reasons.

1) They're getting new book soon, and are strongly rumoured to be in the starter set.

2) They aren't the heroes, but alot of them do have a sense of twisted honor (read the soul hunter books).

3) Ally rules - i get the sense that if you could play orks you would, and with chaos marines you can ally some to your force while still keeping it small, which with black templars isn't an option. By the same token you can ally in daemons which gives you alot of cool army builds that feel different.

Draconis
12-07-2012, 19:10
Loooooving the new allies with my CSM. I have Daemons, CSM, Nids, Tau, and Crons. I get to use 4 of those as allies in any given game.

Desalbert
12-07-2012, 19:39
Loooooving the new allies with my CSM. I have Daemons, CSM, Nids, Tau, and Crons. I get to use 4 of those as allies in any given game.

For clarity, is there not a limit on taking only 1 ally detachment (army) per game? IE, you could not use both Daemons and Tau as allies to your CSM in any given game?

Althathir, yes, you give some great reasons-- They're high on my list, though for a reason I cannot yet precisely explain, I think if I did go Chaos, I'd be moved to run it as Daemons major with CSM allies... I can't explain why I would be driven that way.

If I were to go Space Marines (Black Templars), or Grey Knights, I'd run either as the main with an allied detachment of Sisters, until such time as the Sisters are released from the bonds of second-class-citizens-to-GW status.

Draconis
12-07-2012, 20:36
there might be, hence why i said at any given game. I have the options of playing 4 of my 5 armies as allies. It worked out perfectly.

Charistoph
12-07-2012, 20:52
Remember, Black Templar don't get along with the Sisters as well as other loyalist Marines do, so keep that in mind. Some of the Cannoness synergy possibilities for Battle Brothers can get rather nasty, I would think.

Aluinn
12-07-2012, 21:05
If you like Space Catholics, but don't like Marines (who can't into the Ecclesiarchy anyway, with a few exceptions, but that's another story) then there is the option of the GK Coteaz-led Inquisition army, which doesn't actually have to have any Grey Knights in it at all, and can be quite good too. Henchmen squads are extremely powerful in a lot of cases, and even though at first glance the army only has one Troops unit, it's really more like four competitive options that all do very different things: DCA; Crusaders; some combination of the previous two; Warrior Acolytes with or without Jokaero support (and an enormously varied choice of equipment either way), and Psyker squads. You can mix things even more than that if you like, but I think somewhat specialized squads (i.e. designed for either shooting or close combat) work best.

You also get non-Marine vehicles (Chimeras) if you want them, all the Inquisitor options besides Coteaz as a second HQ (or third and fourth if you're playing 2k+), and all the temple assassins as Elites, if you want to keep completely in-theme.

althathir
12-07-2012, 22:26
For clarity, is there not a limit on taking only 1 ally detachment (army) per game? IE, you could not use both Daemons and Tau as allies to your CSM in any given game?

Althathir, yes, you give some great reasons-- They're high on my list, though for a reason I cannot yet precisely explain, I think if I did go Chaos, I'd be moved to run it as Daemons major with CSM allies... I can't explain why I would be driven that way.

If I were to go Space Marines (Black Templars), or Grey Knights, I'd run either as the main with an allied detachment of Sisters, until such time as the Sisters are released from the bonds of second-class-citizens-to-GW status.

Cause it sounds like you like word bearers :), that said those same reasons still apply, I mean your gonna want the smaller rulebook, the rumoured chaos options should fill an ally detachment fairly well. and they can still partner up with orks.

As far as sisters go I wouldn't hold your breath, i've been waiting for a long time it just doesn't seem like GW wants to give them a fair shake.

Desalbert
12-07-2012, 22:38
As far as sisters go I wouldn't hold your breath, i've been waiting for a long time it just doesn't seem like GW wants to give them a fair shake.

Don't I know it-- :( . GW is pushing me away for the emperor's light with their poor treatment of Sisters. Quick GW, save my soul from the cascading maliciousness of the empyrean!

RunepriestRidcully
12-07-2012, 22:50
To get over marine hate I would recomend "Know no fear" "A Thousand Sons" and "The First Heretic", or anything by ADB.
I second the recommendations for daemons or Chaos marines, though would Nurgle is a bit overdone and recently took a hit ruleswise.
Thousand sons, Alpha legion or Word Bearers however...:)

althathir
12-07-2012, 23:05
Don't I know it-- :( . GW is pushing me away for the emperor's light with their poor treatment of Sisters. Quick GW, save my soul from the cascading maliciousness of the empyrean!

GW never does anything quickly ;). One thing that gives me hope for both sisters and nids is that I think part of the reasons they got shafted on allies is because their updates may shift their weaknesses quite a bit, alot of the fractions that have a lot of ally choices I see being in status quo in this edition.


To get over marine hate I would recomend "Know no fear" "A Thousand Sons" and "The First Heretic", or anything by ADB.
I second the recommendations for daemons or Chaos marines, though would Nurgle is a bit overdone and recently took a hit ruleswise.
Thousand sons, Alpha legion or Word Bearers however...:)

Honestly there are a lot of marine books that good out there. If someone would have told me 2 years ago I would love my space wolves (which i've had for about year) I would have laughed at them, but they wore me down with their 80's cartoon vibe and have turned out to be a really good complement to my eldar because their playstyles are so different.

Angry_Ron
12-07-2012, 23:25
To get over marine hate I would recomend "Know no fear" "A Thousand Sons" and "The First Heretic", or anything by ADB.
I second the recommendations for daemons or Chaos marines, though would Nurgle is a bit overdone and recently took a hit ruleswise.
Thousand sons, Alpha legion or Word Bearers however...

Nurgle.. took a hit?! :eek:
Without turning this into a rules discussion, Nurgle is stronger than it's ever been. True t5 plague marines + allies letting us take good ol' uncle Epidemius means we end up with PMs w/ 3+ FnP, 2+ wounding in CC and AP2 bolter/CCWs, with full tally, which, with the right dosage of fire-power, is no hard task.

But I digress. I say follow your heart. If you like the look of an army, like its rules, like its fluff, then go for it. If you don't like marines, don't go for 'em. I would recommend looking at all the different armies, flick through the books and discuss with friends and use that knowledge when deciding an army. Only you can decide which one you like best ;)

Desalbert
13-07-2012, 00:31
But I digress. I say follow your heart. If you like the look of an army, like its rules, like its fluff, then go for it. If you don't like marines, don't go for 'em. I would recommend looking at all the different armies, flick through the books and discuss with friends and use that knowledge when deciding an army. Only you can decide which one you like best ;)

Wisewords and easy to offer in most circumstances-- Thing is, the heart is with Sisters, but they can't be done (not by me) until a new 'dex and a plastic release. So it's about sifting through to find the backup plan. I concur with you on the flicking through books! The friends, well, they all see me as Orks from back in the day "till I die"-- but those times need to change for my gamer sake. So, here we are.

daboarder
13-07-2012, 01:25
Nurgle.. took a hit?! :eek:
Without turning this into a rules discussion, Nurgle is stronger than it's ever been. True t5 plague marines + allies letting us take good ol' uncle Epidemius means we end up with PMs w/ 3+ FnP, 2+ wounding in CC and AP2 bolter/CCWs, with full tally, which, with the right dosage of fire-power, is no hard task.

But I digress. I say follow your heart. If you like the look of an army, like its rules, like its fluff, then go for it. If you don't like marines, don't go for 'em. I would recommend looking at all the different armies, flick through the books and discuss with friends and use that knowledge when deciding an army. Only you can decide which one you like best ;)

Having played that list its not that great you struggle to get the required kills in a timely fashion against MEQ armies or Mech armies.

That being said T5 and FNP against anything not S10 is a HUGE boost to PM's add in that fact that they no longer take no retreat saves and you can grind the enemy into dirt.

The best ally for CSM at the moment however is probably IG, Manticor, scoring blob and prymaris is mean and makes up for alot of the short comings in an CSM list.

MajorWesJanson
13-07-2012, 02:46
The robed DA veteran bodies fit in well with Word Bearers armies.

Commissar Davis
13-07-2012, 02:53
I would suggest looking at both the BT FAQ and rules before you pick them up, they took a huge hit with the new edition in a very hurty way, but do fit wit the theme you are looking for.

You could try for a Relictors (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Relictors) which sort of fit what you are after, and gives you a choice of different codices to make a list from, depending how you want to portray them.

Other than that, another vote for Word Bearers.

Charistoph
13-07-2012, 03:08
Another crazy idea:

Get some Guardsmen heads and put them on Space Marine bodies, fit them with flamers, meltas, etc and call them the Brothers of Battle, a unit of Guardsmen from X planet that manufactures power armor for the inquisition and echlesiarchy. Toss in some BT bits to give them that holier than thou feel, get Guard Allies (or Primary Detachment), and there you go.

Desalbert
13-07-2012, 07:01
Another crazy idea:

Get some Guardsmen heads and put them on Space Marine bodies, fit them with flamers, meltas, etc and call them the Brothers of Battle, a unit of Guardsmen from X planet that manufactures power armor for the inquisition and echlesiarchy. Toss in some BT bits to give them that holier than thou feel, get Guard Allies (or Primary Detachment), and there you go.

In truth this idea isn't really what I'm after per se. I appreciate that input though!

Digging through the Chaos Daemon 'dex I gotta say that it features some of the more imaginative writing I've seen in a codex before. Especially the first few pages regarding the nature of the warp and chaos as a whole and its contradictory existence. Enjoyable stuff that! Anyone else really dig the writing in certain Codexes? I don't remember reacting this way to a lot of them... Whether this writing holds up or falls as I go through the book-- we'll see-- but for now, I dig it!

Mushkilla
13-07-2012, 08:08
Well the codecies not written by Ward, especially the ones by Phil Kelly (dark eldar, Orks etc) or in this case Gav Thorp tend to be more about where the army comes from and culture rather then how amazing they are at killing everything, unfortunately these codecies are never really in the same league as the Ward codecies when it comes to power.

One day they will all sit down to write a codex where we can have good rules and great fluff. :D

Shadow Lord
13-07-2012, 08:55
Well, because you don't really like SM, then I guess that CSM are out of the equation as well. Word Bearers were my advise too, but they're still SM basically so...no. You love your Sisters but don't want to play them for now and you're looking for something similair...sorry m8, doesn't excist. SoB are the only FEMALE religious fanatics in the 40K universe... . IG would be nice, but you need a tonload of models to start and Orcs are no religious nutcases so they're out as well. Not much more to go for: DE are not really religious and don't fit your needs and same goes for Necrons. Tau are out (totally not religious)...so, we're stuck with daemons...not really religiously themed, can't play crusader with them, BUT...if you play Slaanesh, you've got a tonload of nasty FEMALE daemons...not sure if that's the angle you're looking for...:-)
The other thing you can do, as some have already suggested is: start a new army...the best choice...again...would be DA/GK/BT or the new CSM...but you hate SM...so, it's a bit difficult to give the right advise. I don't mean to offend you by my post, I do hope you find an army that really suits you so you can still enjoy this great hobby! Just gives us a few more pointers on the way so we can better guide you (hopefully to the dark side, but that's just my inner demon talking...)!

Haunter!
13-07-2012, 15:47
I'll cast yet another recommendation for Word Bearers with Daemon allies. It has a lower model count than horde armies AND you get religious zealots running around!

malisteen
13-07-2012, 16:14
Being a chaos player myself, I'm all for suggesting word bearers, but...

Dark Angels might also be worth a mention. They've got a very knightly, warrior-monk thing going, and the robed bodies for your vets look pretty awesome. A bit cleaner and more pleasing aesthetically than the random spikey mutation look of chaos marines, imo.

Of course, those robed dark angel bodies also make excellent Word bearer bodies, and you could certainly get a long way using mostly loyalist marine bits with maybe just chaos backpacks or a few other sparing details from the chaos sprues.

Lord Squidar
13-07-2012, 16:44
Go for daemons man! They rock out with their %$#@s out! Seriously though daemons are alot of fun. I see it like this, when you are playing that old fashioned side scroller and get to the last boss and he takes off most of your health in one shot and you dance around and ding him for ages and kill him, thats playing daemons. Most people want the last boss that can smash people in one hit, but yeah =)

Col. Dash
13-07-2012, 18:09
Red Scorpions are allied closely with the Inq. You want a true loyalist and religious army, there you go and they even have a good paint scheme.

Desalbert
13-07-2012, 22:36
Just wanted to note that I went ahead to start reading Know No Fear, and I have to say I'm really enjoying it as some of you have suggested I should try it. Also, thanks for the votes-- and the introductions to chapters like the Relictors and Red Scorpions-- my SM knowledge is minimal in the extreme, in comparison to most GW gamers...

Also I think I have ruled out Grey Knights on account of this adepticon result table alone:


Game 5 (Sunday Round 1)
Alexander Fennell (Necrons – Winner) vs. Tim Gorham (Grey Knights)
Tony Grippando (Grey Knights) vs. Reece Robbins (Eldar – Winner)
Mike Mutscheller (Space Wolves) vs. Nick Nanavati (Grey Knights – Winner)
Justin Cook (Grey Knights) vs. Brad Chester (Grey Knights – Winner)
Bill Kim (Chaos Daemons) vs. Dave Ankarlo (Grey Knights – Winner)
Jose Mendez (Dark Angels) vs. Tony Kopach (Space Wolves – Winner)
Joakim Engstrom (Grey Knights) vs. Paul Murphy (Grey Knights – Winner)
Doug Johnson (Orks – Winner) vs. Brett Perkins (Imperial Guard)

Game 6 Winner Brackets (Sunday Round 2)
Reece Robbins (Eldar) vs. Paul Murphy (Grey Knights – WINNER)
Alexander Fennell (Necrons – WINNER) vs. Doug Johnson (Orks)
Brad Chester (Grey Knights – WINNER) vs. Dave Ankarlo (Grey Knights)
Tony Kopach (Space Wolves – WINNER) vs. Nick Nanavati (Grey Knights)

Game 7 Winner Brackets – (Sunday Round 3)
Alexander Fennell (Necrons) vs. Brad Chester (Grey Knights – WINNER)
Tony Kopach (Space Wolves – WINNER) vs. Paul Murphy (Grey Knights)

Game 8 (Sunday Round 4)
Tony Kopach (Space Wolves) vs. Brad Chester (Grey Knights – WINNER)

Final Results: Warhammer 40K Championships Warmaster – Brad Chester (Grey Knights)

I prefer underdog and less popular armies at the end of the day, sorry Grey Knights

MikeyB
14-07-2012, 16:55
That list makes me sad.... :cries:

RunepriestRidcully
14-07-2012, 19:21
That list makes me want to take my Thousand sons or Iyanden eldar to a tournament just to try and change that list, bring a little color and variety.
That list is depressing. Anyone know any tournaments in good ones in Britain?

Spiney Norman
14-07-2012, 20:27
Hey everyone! I've posted before about starting a new non-horde army for 6th edition, and while my heart lies with Sisters of Battle, they will not be feasible for me until they get a codex and some plastics.

That said, I have to take on the next best thing. I've narrowed things down to the other "religion-based" factions and am trying to sort through Chaos Daemons, Grey Knights and Space Marines. The thing is, while Marines (of all types) would fit my need for a compact army and would likely appeal to my Knighthood and religious interests, I can't see myself playing them! Why? Because I used to be an Orks player way back around '98, and secondly, because I never choose the same side as the "protagonist" in any story-- and the marines are certainly 40k's main character.

So this is why I'm considering Chaos Daemons, when perhaps I shouldn't be... Maybe I should play Grey Knights or a Marine chapter because they fit my checklist-- aside from being Marines...As playing Marines for me feels like putting on a jersey of an arch-rival sports team, I wonder if there is any way I can get over my Marine hatred. Or is my dislike justified?

Should I swallow my warhammerspeciesism and choose the army that would make for the better gaming experience, or should I again disband the notion of the Marines and find myself on the darkside with Daemons.

TLDR: How can I get over my hatred of Marines? Or should I even try?

I wouldn't worry about it, if you don't like marines, don't force yourself to.

I also loathe marines, the stupid looking armour is one factor but I think the main problem is that everyone I know plays marines, they're too "normal" (I dislike IG for the same reason) and in a sci fi universe I want to play some crazy alien. I got my religious yahoos out with sisters back when the Witch Hunter codex was release, and now I'm left with a beached army that has no proper codex. I've looked at Dark Angels a few times because they alone among the marine chapters seem to have real character and a fantastic dark streak to their fluff where every other marine chapter has the shiny, heroic "all-American" type image. But then I noticed they wear the same dumb looking armour with a few bits of cloth stapled to it so GW can market them as a different army and I lost interest again. Not to mention that the DA codex is almost as bad as the sisters article.

I don't really do chaos as a rule, but the Daemon range is pretty nice now, so if that's what you're feeling, go for it. If you start a marine army you will actually have to paint them, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

xerxeshavelock
14-07-2012, 21:30
I used to be a little anti-marine, but I believe I was looking at it wrong. I was seeing them as a faction rather than accepting their individuality. If you look at it as though they are people first they are as attractive an option as any force or faction. This means they should be as viable an option as any culture/group you can name. Eg - you have a thing for Samurai, Masai, the SAS, whatever - you can impart that personality to your army.

The fact they are often seen only by their stereotypes, and that players are judged by these is the problem, but it doesn't have to be.

Desalbert
14-07-2012, 23:45
I used to be a little anti-marine, but I believe I was looking at it wrong. I was seeing them as a faction rather than accepting their individuality. If you look at it as though they are people first they are as attractive an option as any force or faction. This means they should be as viable an option as any culture/group you can name. Eg - you have a thing for Samurai, Masai, the SAS, whatever - you can impart that personality to your army.

The fact they are often seen only by their stereotypes, and that players are judged by these is the problem, but it doesn't have to be.

Is it possible to REALLY seperate them though? I mean, sure, Black Templars and Dark Angels are different-- but, across the table your opponents see Space Marines, and indeed-- at the end of the day they ARE Space Marines. I know what you're saying here-- Space Wolves can appeal to someone for reasons that regular space marines just can't reach. Like for me, I would certainy never play the Ultramarines, as they are secular and extremely poster-boyish, but Black Templars and maybe a few others start to scratch that religious fanatic witch-hunt crusaders vibe that I'm after. So your point IS correct -- but it's also splitting hairs isn't it? A marine is a marine. No?

Do they play THAT differently on the table top? (Granted your position seemed mostly to be in regards to backstory, which is kind of where my thread started at as well)

It's difficult for me to seperate the diverse marine from the stock marine, or to imagine that to others I wouldn't be just another marine player, regardless of SM-faction chosen.

Sotek
14-07-2012, 23:59
Word bearer CSM with daemon allies?

Charistoph
15-07-2012, 00:17
The Angels, Smurfs, and Templars aren't extremely different from each other in many ways, but there are subtle differences that can make things huge, with Blood Angels even more so with their Priests and Fast Vehicles (I guess red DOES go faster). It is entirely possible to set up your models in such a way that they can easily bounce between these codecies without difficutly, and even the Puppies, too.

In the end, you are still targetting Stat 4, 3+ models in Rhino chassis with some 2+ around. So that part can get very dull and boring, especially if these stats cover 1/3rd of the available armies without blinking.

In the end it is YOUR army, so you need to choose.

Brother Muninn
15-07-2012, 03:01
I have a Daemon army myself. Fluffwise, they're interesting, albeit slightly two-dimensional. One of the more quirky bits in the codex regards the gates of Tzeentch. According to the excerpt the only mortal to pass through every gate in the maze was a little girl with ruby slippers and a little black dog.

I'm not going to lie, playing Daemons is tough. A handful of my regular opponents give me flack, even though they are an exceptionally dicey army (literally: Your army's fate relies on the luck of the dice more so than almost any other army). I personally am planning on expanding into a Word Bearer's army since they explicitly use Daemons in their armies, and it'd add some much needed firepower/armor/stability.

As it turns out I also have a Marine army who are zealously devoted to the Imperial Creed and the Ecclesiarchy, the Fire Angels. They're an old Rogue Trader era chapter whose details weren't fleshed out until recently. I really dug their scheme & feel so I made an army out of them (project log is in my sig). However Forge World went through recently and changed their scheme & tied them closely to the Ecclesiarchy. I like the new fluff, but I'm not gonna change my colors.

~Muninn

Trimarius
15-07-2012, 04:10
While not especially religious, if you're looking for a somewhat different take on loyalist SM, you could always go with the Carcharodons. They almost straddle the line of what can be condoned even by the IoM with their "unforgiving" attitudes and bloody handed savagery while their penchant for scavenging arms and equipment can be used to give them a somewhat different look (as can their habit of not bothering to paint their gear beyond the ceremite/primer). Despite this, they remain at least as dedicated to the entrenched power structures of the Imperium as any. If IA is acceptable to your group they have a few entries in the Badab books, but if not you could reproduce the gist of their approach as long as you focus on assault troops and lc termies.

On the other hand, if it is just the numbers of your beloved orks that pose a problem, you could always go for an 'arder approach featuring nobs (perhaps with your allowed squad of 'ard boyz) as troops and, with the other non-troop slots not exactly being cheap, end up being heavily outnumbered by even marines. Similarly, while the heyday for the nob biker lists may have passed, 45/25 pts a 'grunt' is still going to lead to a compact force.

Shamana
15-07-2012, 07:48
@ Desalbert - have you thought about giving Eldar a try? They are decidedly not marines, they don't do horde (Ward codices fluff notwithstanding), and have a fairly distinct style and look on the TT. As for being religious, well, aspect warriors are essentially death cults of Khaine (and harlequins of Cegorach), and alongside Chaos they are the only ones that can literally march into battle alongside a shard of their god. They also have a bit of an underdog vibe - they are hounded by the fall of their ancestors, which may well have doomed them all, and they are doing their all to somehow hold on. From a competitive viewpoint, they are at a somewhat low point, but there have been talks about a new codex next year.

Polaria
15-07-2012, 08:38
Build Aspect Warrior based Eldars or just join the Red Harvest and get into Necrons. Neither are horde armies, both can be built with very "elite and small model count" styles and neither are Marines. My Space Marine army actually has a considerably bigger model count than my Necron Army has unless I'm running a bike army.

Desalbert
15-07-2012, 18:28
Hm, Eldar IS an interesting thought-- I'll have to give that more consideration!

TimLeeson
15-07-2012, 18:36
Has anyone recomended the Adeptus Mechanicus?

Theres your non-marine religious zealots. They basicly are a religion focussed around worshipping machines. Plus you can choose what codex to use for them since they have no offical rules.

Von Wibble
15-07-2012, 18:41
Hey everyone! I've posted before about starting a new non-horde army for 6th edition, and while my heart lies with Sisters of Battle, they will not be feasible for me until they get a codex and some plastics.

That said, I have to take on the next best thing. I've narrowed things down to the other "religion-based" factions and am trying to sort through Chaos Daemons, Grey Knights and Space Marines. The thing is, while Marines (of all types) would fit my need for a compact army and would likely appeal to my Knighthood and religious interests, I can't see myself playing them! Why? Because I used to be an Orks player way back around '98, and secondly, because I never choose the same side as the "protagonist" in any story-- and the marines are certainly 40k's main character.

So this is why I'm considering Chaos Daemons, when perhaps I shouldn't be... Maybe I should play Grey Knights or a Marine chapter because they fit my checklist-- aside from being Marines...As playing Marines for me feels like putting on a jersey of an arch-rival sports team, I wonder if there is any way I can get over my Marine hatred. Or is my dislike justified?

Should I swallow my warhammerspeciesism and choose the army that would make for the better gaming experience, or should I again disband the notion of the Marines and find myself on the darkside with Daemons.

TLDR: How can I get over my hatred of Marines? Or should I even try?

Assuming your dislike is only for loyalist marines, word bearers would fit perfectly.

Desalbert
15-07-2012, 18:50
Assuming your dislike is only for loyalist marines, word bearers would fit perfectly.

In truth, the original dislike was for all marines, including Chaos Space Marines (especially in that I always felt Chaos should have much more than just space marines to use as its puppets...like truckloads of mutants, turncoat soldiers etc, but that's another thread done to death already-- maybe the new book will have it-- I digress though)

My original dislike is for all marines. Posterboy Loyalists and CSM, in part because I see them as too popular, and too pampered by GW (especially Loyalists). I'm trying to get over this.

Thanks for the word bearers vote though, still considering them.

As for Adeptus Mechanicus, I don't want to field an army that has no official support, otherwise I'd just go with Sisters, since they have SOME official rules and a modicum of models.

xerxeshavelock
15-07-2012, 19:00
Is it possible to REALLY seperate them though? I mean, sure, Black Templars and Dark Angels are different-- but, across the table your opponents see Space Marines, and indeed-- at the end of the day they ARE Space Marines. I know what you're saying here-- Space Wolves can appeal to someone for reasons that regular space marines just can't reach. Like for me, I would certainy never play the Ultramarines, as they are secular and extremely poster-boyish, but Black Templars and maybe a few others start to scratch that religious fanatic witch-hunt crusaders vibe that I'm after. So your point IS correct -- but it's also splitting hairs isn't it? A marine is a marine. No?

Do they play THAT differently on the table top? (Granted your position seemed mostly to be in regards to backstory, which is kind of where my thread started at as well)

It's difficult for me to seperate the diverse marine from the stock marine, or to imagine that to others I wouldn't be just another marine player, regardless of SM-faction chosen.

If you play Flames of War the Germans and the British are pretty much the same right? From one point of view they are totally different, but in 1000 years we'd both be European human armies. Any force in the 41st milennium can be far more diverse than that - limited by what you put into your force. I'd go further than that. Think of a hero, then put him into a suit of Power Armour.Say you don't like the Ultramarines - did you like Maximus in Gladiator? Did you like Apone in Aliens? Barnes in Platoon. They can be Ultramarines, as long as you don't let your preconceptions rule you.

As for the perceptions of other players, you will get those from all players whatever you play. I happen to not like the execution of the Sisters of Battle and Daemons forces. They don't fit with my perceptions of the game, which is why you rarely see me post in threads about them. However I don't judge the players for getting what they can out of their game. You can't control others perception of your force before they play you, but you can wow them with killer conversions, a unified theme to your force and some nifty backgrounf (which btw no-one else will probably care about).

I'm not saying play Marines, just that that's how I came to like them. As an aside I play Black Legion with no spikes and wolf pelts - everyone else I knew was playing Imp Marines and I wanted a power armoured force. But my force is based on the Uhtred saga by Bernard Cornwell - Rhinos = longships so my army is based on loads of axe and sword-wielding warriors led by a couple of heroes.

IJW
15-07-2012, 19:09
Aye, of course I have thought about Orks again, (as any classic ork player should) but the horde nature of the army is too difficult to allow me to enjoy the game (as a player with physical disabilities).

How about non-horde Orks? Deffwing or Kult of Speed can be pretty low on model count.

Desalbert
16-07-2012, 05:51
How about non-horde Orks? Deffwing or Kult of Speed can be pretty low on model count.

I've truly thought about it-- and will continue to, since the army I do have is notable... but, I think that notion just doesn't appeal to me as much as it may have awhile ago. I'm ready to explore some other armies + options if possible. I think, if I take Kult of Speed as my main force, it gets difficult to become tactically variable with them. In opposition, if I grab an army that's pegged as 'elite' well, I have a whole codex (not just one iteration of a codex) to work with.

So I'd say I'm considering most strongly still: Black Templars, Eldar, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists and Chaos Daemons with alternating IG and CSM allies.

Nymie_the_Pooh
16-07-2012, 07:05
Where are you planning on playing. I'm disabled to the point where I can't sit up on my own, so I rarely do anything in one of my local stores because I have a huge reclining wheelchair that is difficult for people to get around. There are many days I can't hold up my own head, but if I can get my body lined up to see most of the table this isn't much of an issue. I also can't see or move my models myself if the table is really tall and have to park sideways unless I can pull up under the table. I am lucky in that one of the local stores has a lot of board gamers so there are tables on a lower level than many places I've been to in the past for gaming, but I don't go in there in the evenings or weekends as they are always packed. I also lucked out with the fact that I was blessed with monkey arms so if I can minimize the amount I have to move around in one go I can reach almost to the other side of a 4' table if butted up against it sideways.

It sounds like a factor in your decision is what isn't being played in your area. The only way to find out is to ask locally. If you have a core group of friends that you will be playing with then that makes this information easier to obtain. If not, then see if you can get a list of what shows up at local tournaments. Also, find out if there are some forums for players in your area. I know that where I live there are some great forums set up that cover most of the stores (stores have moderation privileges for their section) in my city, but also stores up to 100 miles from me within the same state so it is pretty quick and easy to get such information as any local tournaments tend to have at least the results posted on there if not the turnout. Check with your local shop or players that you know to see if there is anything similar in your area. The local scene is still impacted by what the meta for California as a whole is, but it is a slight variation of that meta which is quite a bit different from the meta for when I lived in Indiana or Kentucky. Then again, that was years ago, but I imagine both of those states have their own metas different from my local meta so the answer of what isn't seeing much play is different there from here.

In third I played Eldar and Sisters (Witchhunters later) along with dabbling in Chaos Space Marines. When I returned in fifth I went with Orks and Marines however as two Assault on Black Reach sets are the cheapest option available for two solid cores for valid armies which I feel helps contribute to the huge number of Marine armies as the third and forth edition sets also included Marines. They might not be optimal options for the two forces, but everything is playable and the cost was too good to pass up. My Marines stand out a bit from most anything else because I have a custom chapter with a somewhat pastel colour palette, but I'll be honest that my troops choices are limited to two basic options with some variation for transports. Outside of the troops slot Marines do have quite a few viable options. They might not be optimal depending on the current meta, but almost everything is fieldable and provides some variety if you want something different.

If you are worried about moving hordes then perhaps you can make a movement tray for them. I knew some people that used the old Lord of the Rings movement trays and placed their Orks in alternating spaces. I usually play long, casual games so can play without such aids normally. Oftentimes the person I am playing with has no issue moving my guys after I place a couple of guys at the front and back of where I want a mob to move as it can speed up play. I may have to place all my special weapons and leaders with the new rules, but generally speaking nobody feels good cheating a gimp so I've been pretty lucky in that regard. I do magnetize my Orks so if I need to I can place them on a board for faster play. One of my main concerns with the Orks is slow playing an opponent which is easy to do even for those without physical disabilities, and trays helps with that if my opponent is okay with them. Think along the lines of magnetized movement trays for skirmish units in fantasy. This works for most casual games if I move the whole board six inches without rotating it at all as that means all of the models moved the same distance but this can be tricky with terrain. It also probably hurts me more than it helps me as it means I am not rearranging units as I move them around and that matters in sixth, but it is such a huge time saver for me that it is worth that sacrifice if I don't have all day to spend on one or two games. Taking transports helped a lot in fifth, but I'm not sure how much transports helps with model manipulation speed in sixth yet as I haven't had much time with sixth yet. If an opponent doesn't like the idea of trays maybe you can get away with moving four cardinal point guys along with any special weapons and/or characters then have someone else (maybe your opponent) move everything else to fit within the area created by those models. Failing that, place the special guys then dump the rest. If they don't end their movement upright then your opponent can place them upright if it really bothers them that much.

Desalbert
16-07-2012, 16:20
Thank you for your insight Nymie-- I appreciate it greatly. I've discussed things like these with my gaming group, and I'm sure they would be fine with it. However, I'm also hoping to enter the competitive scene so also want to try to avoid non-standard approaches (if possible for me, that is) so I'm going to challenge myself with building an elite army and keeping my approaches "standard". I walk with arm crutches and am spastic, mind you, so my disability has a different set of challenges and requirements as well. Still, I'm going to take your post to heart when I take on playing IG or Greenskins once again.

Desalbert
16-07-2012, 19:14
I have abunch of new info about the local scene here and how armies stack up there. That being said, given that I am interested in increasing the variety here locally, the new info will help me decide. My LGS member gave me these statistics about a local tournament and I hope that after them, I might ask for you further aid to pull me one way or another.


Hey there. We had 18 players, broken down as:

-Space Marines - 4

-Space Wolves - 1

-Grey Knights - 3

-Blood Angels - 1

-Black Templars - 1

-Dark Angels - 1

-Necrons - 1

-Tyranids - 2

-Chaos Daemons - 1

-Orks - 1

-Imperial Guard - 2




The tournament standings for the top 3rd ( 6 players) were:




1st - Grey Knights

2nd - Imperial Guard

3rd - Space Wolves

4th - Tyranids/Grey Knights (tie)

5th - Imperial Guard

6th - Blood Angels

As you can see, we have a preponderance of Space Marines/SM Chapters players. Our weakest representation is Eldar, Dark Eldar and Chaos. We're expecting to see more Necrons now that 6th Edition is here, and with an apparently new Chaos SM Codex about to come out, probably more Chaos, too.



Eldar, Dark Eldar and Chaos-- somewhat surprising in terms of representation... But does anyone have any input about these 3? Do I have to like elves to play Eldar? :P and as my LGS leader suggests, Chaos will probably see a rise-- but I wonder by how much.

Shamana
18-07-2012, 15:39
Eldar, Dark Eldar and Chaos-- somewhat surprising in terms of representation... But does anyone have any input about these 3? Do I have to like elves to play Eldar? :P and as my LGS leader suggests, Chaos will probably see a rise-- but I wonder by how much.

Eldar: you don't have to like elves to play eldar - but it doesn't hurt. The aesthetic is what got me into this armor - most of their vehicles have a very flowing form that to me suggests speed and controlled aggression, as opposed to the boxy imperial/CSM vehicles. The infantry is varied - you have the cloaked and the warlocks/seers who (except the gear) could probably work in fantasy, and there are the masqued, heavily armored (more or less) aspects, where you can see a few classical lines like the avenger helmets. One of the builds - the "wraithwall" where you use wraithlords and wraithguard as troops - is quite unlike what you'd expect an "elf" army to play like. It's basically a golem army: slow and tough, with some twists. They have an old codex, though, and some of their units don't play as they should.

Dark Eldar: a bit like the above, but imo with a bit of a freakish vibe - the haemonculi and their toys, the reavers and beastmasters with their masks, and the spiky outfit on kabalites or the actual wings on scourges. Most of the models are good to gorgeous, and the codex has several ways to make an effective army. Be aware of the hard learning curve - it is a rather fragile army.

Chaos - I'm less interested in it in some of the others, especially as there are several rumors that it will be the first 6E codex, likely coming out late summer or fall. To me, CSM are the most different marines - very different from the others, but still marines, no matter what spikes and bling they put on there are too many similarities in the general mechanics of the units. I imagine the new codex, which will likely feature cultists and some unique vehicles, may distinguish them a bit more. Daemons, on the other hand, are a bit weird - I'm still not sure how the new edition will work for them.