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catosil
12-07-2012, 14:16
Hi, wanted to check how dwarf engineers are being interpreted. In our gaming group the discussion came up recently that dwarf engineers add +1 wound to the cannons etc. as the dwarf rule book says to add engineer. errata says ignore the rule of extra crew on page 39 (artillery crew). Would this mean the engineer replaces a crew member or are there now 4 crew which means the cannon gets an extra wound? +15pts just seems awfully cheap to give a cannon +1 wound, +1 attack, +1 BS on a bolt thrower and a reroll on the misfire chart for cannons etc. when to add a champion to a unit of dwarf warriors is +18 points and I mean add as in extra model.

My thought is that it replaces a crew member (as he becomes a champion in all respects, last to be removed etc)

reddevil18
12-07-2012, 14:26
As the errata says to ignore the extra crew rule id vote for he does not give an extra wound but just replaces a crew member, and i know army builder is not offical but thats how it interprets it as well.

Artiee
12-07-2012, 15:49
Per the BSB, Crew are used to indicate the remaining wounds.

When I engineer is added, the wounds increase. The dwarf errata removes the addtional crew rule that states that the warmachine can still fire.

The Dwarf book says you Add not upgrade a model.



**added**

Army Builder also adds the wound.

Lance Tankmen
12-07-2012, 17:58
i agree i see it as add, since my trebuchet from the bretonnian book has 4 wounds and i "upgrade" to get a yoeman craftsmen. where as it says add

reddevil18
12-07-2012, 22:35
Per the BSB, Crew are used to indicate the remaining wounds.

When I engineer is added, the wounds increase. The dwarf errata removes the addtional crew rule that states that the warmachine can still fire.

The Dwarf book says you Add not upgrade a model.



**added**

Army Builder also adds the wound.

Yes but the fact it says ignore extra crew rule stops him joining, i'm not saying the machine does not get the bonus but he does not count as crew, he either replaces one or counts as a stand alone hero next to the war machine.

catosil
13-07-2012, 00:33
I wouldnt say stops him joining I just interprete it as replaceing same as any other champion as stated in dwarf book. And add was before they were wound markers.

The bearded one
13-07-2012, 01:15
The "additional crew" rule concerned obsolete 6th/7th edition rules about warmachine crews, as they used to work very differently in the past. The additional crew rule included some stuff about either using their artillery special rules, acting as additional crewmember (you used to need 2 crewmembers to fire once per turn, for example, it would take 1 crewmember 2 turns to fire a warmachines if he was alone), or fire personal weaponry. This rules is no longer necessary and there is no need for the redundancy. Just imagine the rule never existed. Currently you are judging the ruling based on the fact that the "additional crewmember" rule was removed, but you should imagine it was never there.

Also the orc & goblin rocklobbers set a precedent, as you can add an orc bully there, who is explicitely noted to add a 4th wound.

Currently the profile says "add an engineer" so you do as it says on the tin: Add an engineer. Incidentaly engineers also count as champions, so are indeed removed last of all crewmembers.

reddevil18
14-07-2012, 15:11
Only complaint with that (remember i own the book but have not read it fully) is if we are ignoring that rule ever existing, where is the rule to allow them to join?

The bearded one
14-07-2012, 15:32
In the armylist unit entry, where it says "add an engineer".

Also there it is noted that engineers are champions, meaning they are basically "crewmember champions", with the rest of the crew being "crew rank&file", so they are obviously part of the unit/warmachine; they're its champion!

reddevil18
15-07-2012, 13:57
If its there champion shouldnt it replace a model like all other units instead of adding?

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 15:40
If its there champion shouldnt it replace a model like all other units instead of adding?

It would if it said "upgrade" like it does with every other unit, but here it says "add".

The orc rock lobber sets a nice precedent for this, where an orc bully is "added", explicitely noted to be a 4th wound, and shown on pictures as a 4th crew model alongside the 3 goblins.