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nicromanov
12-07-2012, 20:52
so ,i was playing a game against a mate in my flgs ,when some guy ,who i will assume was tfg strolls up and says somethign along the lines of "oh ,you play guard ,why bother playingthis game." .
now i understand some people don tlike the idea of humans in sci fi for whatever reason ,i dunno ,maybe its a fondess tall pointy eared women. :skull:
but it got me thinking ,why do some players seem to have serious hate for guard? :confused:

nagash66
12-07-2012, 20:54
1) Were you fielding an all flyer list?
2) ????.
3) Profit.

But mostly just answer 1.

Lord Damocles
12-07-2012, 20:56
but it got me thinking ,why do some players seem to have serious hate for guard? :confused:
You could ask the same question for .


People will hate on anything. [I]40K General is total proof of that.

Sexiest_hero
12-07-2012, 20:57
Guard have an army build called Leaf blower that ruined 40 and made one part of the unholy trinity with space wolves and grey knights. It was completely un fun to play with the guard rolling dice and the other opponent picking up models. It was not cool of him to simply assume that's why you play guard.

nicromanov
12-07-2012, 21:02
fair enough ,seems like som legit reasons.
@ nagash66 nope ,not a single flyer in my army .
@sexist_hero so,just out of curiosity ,what is this build? i wouldnt adopt it ,im pretty happy with my layout as it is :)

Kamenwati
12-07-2012, 21:05
It had some variants but mostly it was a lot of mech vets rolling forward firing melta weapons backed by the plasma tanks and maybe a couple vendettas as well.

Damocles8
12-07-2012, 21:05
People pretty much have a problem with IG Mechanized Infantry lists with vet squads kitted out with melta guns. Now they tend to cry foul anytime they see more than 4 chimeras.....

nicromanov
12-07-2012, 21:07
People pretty much have a problem with IG Mechanized Infantry lists with vet squads kitted out with melta guns. Now they tend to cry foul anytime they see more than 4 chimeras.....

see now this is what gets me ,my set up doesnt use transport ,its all on foot.
even i get annoyed with mechanized guard ,just because the players tend to thinkin terms of ww2 rather than 40k :p

Theocracity
12-07-2012, 21:09
Then you were just dealing with a humanoid parrot, who heard something once on the Internet and now repeats it regardless of context.

Give him a cracker and move along.

Johnmclane
12-07-2012, 21:13
I hate every army I don't play intensly. 'specially marine armies!!

Brother Nidus
12-07-2012, 21:17
Generally the typical 'Leafblower' List consists of starting out with two veteran squads with meltaguns, loaded up in valkaries/vendettas. maxing out heavy support with artillery tank squads (hydras, medusas, manticores) maybe mount up an infantry platoon in chims, sprinkle on some shiny extras (astropaths, master of the fleets), and there you have it.

difficult to fight against, not fun to play against.


Nidus

ninja'd so many times... i'm so slow

The bearded one
12-07-2012, 21:19
Just today a friend used his imperial guard new&improved for 6th, with 3 vendetta's, 5 leman russes and lots of veteran melta guards. No offence to the guy, but I definately troll him about his guard endlessly :D

Dragonclaw
12-07-2012, 21:22
Ya i have a few people at my shop who really hate guard. As for me i think there an important part of 40k ;)

Vaktathi
12-07-2012, 21:27
Guard have an army build called Leaf blower that ruined 40 and made one part of the unholy trinity with space wolves and grey knights. It was completely un fun to play with the guard rolling dice and the other opponent picking up models. It was not cool of him to simply assume that's why you play guard.The actual "leafblower" list that won the 'ard boyz event won it pretty much by getting first turn every time and it's opponents playing into its hands. Additionally, most people would look at it and not really consider it a "leafblower" by their standards. It's a silly term that's been applied to any IG list with a Chimera that most people have a hard time defining past "it's got chimeras".

EDMM
12-07-2012, 21:28
There is no definition of the "leaf-blower" list.

It's totally made up.

Ask two people, get two different answers.

Vaktathi
12-07-2012, 21:31
Exactly. It's a boogeyman.

Now, IG could make scary powerful mech lists. No question. But the whole "leafblower" thing was ridiculous.

The bearded one
12-07-2012, 21:35
Leafblower lists meant lists with lots (and lots and lots and lots) of big scary templates pieplating all over you, literally "blowing you away", right?

What do chimera's have to do with that..?

Nurgling Chieftain
12-07-2012, 21:37
Leafblower, Fatecrusher, Draigowing, Razorspam, DoA; broad categories of frequently used lists always get nicknames. So what if it doesn't have much to do with the trope namer?

Vaktathi
12-07-2012, 21:40
Leafblower lists meant lists with lots (and lots and lots and lots) of big scary templates pieplating all over you, literally "blowing you away", right?

What do chimera's have to do with that..?

because people usually judge a list as "leafblower" by mechanization more than anything else, and it really didn't have *that* many blast weapons. 2 medusa's, a manticore, and a couple valks with S4 rocket pods.

Formerly Wu
12-07-2012, 21:46
so ,i was playing a game against a mate in my flgs ,when some guy ,who i will assume was tfg strolls up and says somethign along the lines of "oh ,you play guard ,why bother playingthis game." .
Sounds like a socially maladjusted chap who wants to feel superior by putting down strangers, but without the intellect to form coherent opinions of his own. They're a common enough type if you hang around gamers long enough.

Best to dismiss him with a laugh.

Tebrey
12-07-2012, 22:03
Having played Guard for six years now, I have to ask... what are we supposed to play? Assault lists?

We don't have anything that can survive a round of assault, and don't say blob squads.
Armored fist companies have been a part of the game for two codexes. So were airborne. Some of us used Valks long before they came out in plastic.

Guard is a shooty army, it all we have.

The bearded one
12-07-2012, 22:13
Having played Guard for six years now, I have to ask... what are we supposed to play? Assault lists?

We don't have anything that can survive a round of assault, and don't say blob squads.
Armored fist companies have been a part of the game for two codexes. So were airborne. Some of us used Valks long before they came out in plastic.

Guard is a shooty army, it all we have.

I support this post, except by removing every mention to guard and guard lists, and replacing them with Tau and tau lists.

nicromanov
12-07-2012, 23:03
Sounds like a socially maladjusted chap who wants to feel superior by putting down strangers, but without the intellect to form coherent opinions of his own. They're a common enough type if you hang around gamers long enough.

Best to dismiss him with a laugh.


sounds about right ,but I donít think its just gamers you get these chaps in ,after all ,its hardly different from one person slighting another over his choice of football team ,or a customer rage quitting because the guy in front got the wrong sandwich in subway and messed up the shops smell :p

jsullivanlaw
12-07-2012, 23:45
It's because most things in the current IG codex are criminally undercosted. And on top of that they get the order system... And they can squadron everything. In 5th edition it was mainly a bunch of ultra nasty tanks hiding behind a wall of chimeras containing scoring units while Vendettas swooped around killing any vehicles or monsterous creatures that you brought.

Thoth62
12-07-2012, 23:54
In my gaming group we all have a little ditty we like to shout whenever a certain army hits the board (all in good fun of course). I think it dates back to 4th edition when they could be stupidly effective. Goes something like this:

"Stupid Tau!"

Vaktathi
12-07-2012, 23:57
To be fair, there's a handful of (very useful) things that were undercosted (or in some cases, weren't by themselves but synergized *very* well), but squadrons sucked, and at least half the book (if not more) never sees the table because it's overcosted and/or just doesn't work well (e.g. Leman Russ Vanquishers...155pts for a 72" Meltagun with no AP1 and BS3, Stormtroopers, etc).

Spell_of_Destruction
13-07-2012, 00:16
Evidence that Cruddace is not a great codex writer. There are some nice ideas in the Guard codex but the costing is all over the place.

Valk/Vendetta spam has a bad rep not simply because it moves away from the traditional Guard style but because it's one of their best builds. If it was reasonably balanced with the traditional Guard style I doubt everyone would be complaining so much.

Now that it's a flyer I reckon the Vendetta currently costs around 60-70% of what it should.

carldooley
13-07-2012, 04:04
with the new ally rules in the rulebook, guard are looking at just getting stronger. Just look at two HQs in the GK book - karadread and coteaz. for the low price of 112 pts, leafblower is still going strong (coteaz + 3 warrior henchman troops choice). then there is karadread - get an infantry squad stuck into combat with something nasty, and drop OSRs onto them. . .

add to that, they are a go to ally with access to CCS with Astropath & OotF, Marbo, stormtroopers, or a PBS, Vendettas\Valkyries and Hydras.

Commissar Davis
13-07-2012, 04:26
It comes mainly from those that think that Imperial Guard should be a walk over, no harder than they were in other editions where it was all uphill for them to be efficient, think that they should be stuck as two dimensional stereotype, or all the fore mentioned. They are however no better than any other 5ed codex, but people cry because they are no worse either or they are playing 4ed codices.

They got a lot of stick when the 5ed codex came out, as they were one of the first. Only Marines now get more hate, even though Necrons and DEldar are just as good.

The so called leaf blower was a 2000 pt list, and is an advertisement for why the belief that you should be able to fit everything in your codex in a list is bad. Its creator got beat down by a nid list in a European tourney when he tried the same thing at 1500 pts.

Chem-Dog
13-07-2012, 05:13
Guard have an army build called Leaf blower that ruined 40 and made one part of the unholy trinity with space wolves and grey knights.


Heavens to mercy(!)


see now this is what gets me ,my set up doesnt use transport ,its all on foot.
even i get annoyed with mechanized guard ,just because the players tend to thinkin terms of ww2 rather than 40k :p

I resent that! :p I've been playing Mech Inf almost exclusively since the Steel Legion first made it possible for the first time since 2nd Edition (where being a skint teen made it impossible). I'm not, in any way, a WWII enthusiast.


Leafblower lists meant lists with lots (and lots and lots and lots) of big scary templates pieplating all over you, literally "blowing you away", right?

What do chimera's have to do with that..?

Yeah, that's what I understood it to be too. I think the Chimeras are generally there to hide the flesh-sacks that are essential to a legal force. Two Chimeras can each house a Company Command Squad which can, in turn, each house a Master of Ordnance, the 30 point Basalisk upgrade.


Guard is a shooty army, it all we have.

Nonsense man! We have bayonets and faith in the Emperor. CHAAAAAARGE!!!!! :D


I support this post, except by removing every mention to guard and guard lists, and replacing them with Tau and tau lists.

I support this post except by removing every word and replacing it with naked ladies. :shifty:


It's because most things in the current IG codex are criminally undercosted.

My Ogryn and Stormtroopers laugh like gold plated drains every time someone says this.



Now that it's a flyer I reckon the Vendetta is at least 60-70% undercosted.

As a dual Tank-Hunter and Transport, I think you're right. Drop the transport option and you lose on of the two reasons it's an asset. As an anti Tank unit with three TL Lascannons it'll always be considered pretty handy (especially with twinlinking being a semi-cure for Snapshots and AP2 rolling penetrating hits up the chart one pip) but having a full transport compartment in addition makes it a no-brainer choice over the standard Valk in 99% of situations. It also flies in the face of fluff.



Almost all examples I've had personally of "Guard hate" are people who run hideously powerful lists themselves and are incensed that somebody has a halfway effective counter to it. In essence it's "You gave my OP army a run for it's money ergo you must be OP+" with nary a thought spared for bad generalship, luck of the dice and the folly of lumping too many points into single units that then get pasted by a well placed Demolisher Shell.

Sons of Lorgar
13-07-2012, 08:25
Hehe, my favourite guard list at 1750pts contain two platoons in chimeras (11 in total), a single heavy weapon squad on foot and a Salamander Cmnd HQ all the chimeras have Autocannon or Twin-Heavy bolter turrets and most of the mutant guards has autocannons or heavy bolters as squad support weapon and a varied mix of special weapons.

Sexiest_hero
13-07-2012, 08:53
Some people cry foul whenever IG hit the table, and that isn't right. But don't, think that the unholy combination of meltavets vendettas, manticores and hydras was not the least bit op. It's like saying Draigowing wasn't an issue.You can tell when A book has balance issues when it becomes upward of 40% of armies at a major tourny. That said, the Eldar flying circus of 4th edition was the worst thing I've ever seen in 40k.

Major_Manny
13-07-2012, 09:57
Face it guys, GW don't balance points at all, they literally make it up as they go along, i very much doubt that there's an actual formula. If its a kit they want to sell, you bet your ass it'll be cheap points and good.

mercury14
13-07-2012, 10:26
so ,i was playing a game against a mate in my flgs ,when some guy ,who i will assume was tfg strolls up and says somethign along the lines of "oh ,you play guard ,why bother playingthis game." .
now i understand some people don tlike the idea of humans in sci fi for whatever reason ,i dunno ,maybe its a fondess tall pointy eared women. :skull:
but it got me thinking ,why do some players seem to have serious hate for guard? :confused:


My old group thought my Eldar were OP and some didn't want to play against me.

tuebor
13-07-2012, 11:45
My old group thought my Eldar were OP and some didn't want to play against me.

In 4th edition Eldar skimmers were pretty much unkillable, so if it's that old a group they might have had a point about them being OP.

I've run into a lot of Guard hate over the years, most of it rather silly. Some people don't like regular humans in their heroic space fantasy game. Of course, if GW would make the weird Imperial things in the codex (Ogryns, Ratlings, Techpriests, Priests) more useful that would probably help with this attitude.

Some don't like the Guard's playstyle, I knew a guy back in 4th that refused to play against Guard, Tau or Necrons because he hated armies that wouldn't "come out and fight". He played a Khorne army and when asked he honestly thought that Guard/Tau/Necrons should come out and "fight like men" in close combat and stop being "cowards". This wasn't some overexcited child just starting the game, this was a 40 year old man who had played since Rogue Trader.

Since the new codex came out some people get a bad taste in their mouth either after a severe beating at the hands of a Guard player or after reading about such things on the Internet. The gaming group I played with through 3rd and most of 4th had a similar collective bad experience with an Armageddon list Black Templar player who cheated for several months. Even though we knew he cheated we all had a bad taste about Space Marines in general, it wasn't rational and didn't make sense but there it is.

Probably my favorite Guard hate comes from people who were so used to the Guard being a punching bag in 3rd and 4th editions that when the 5th edition codex came out it upset the natural order of things. I suppose this attitude was reinforced by most of the fiction and art (with some exceptions like Gaunt's Ghosts) where the Guard exist as something for the big bad guys or heros to slaughter effortlessly. A guy from the last gaming group I played in before moving to Europe got pretty upset when a 30 man power blob killed off a 5 man squad of lightning claw Terminators because "Guard should never win in close combat".

Xerkics
13-07-2012, 13:09
I personally dont like Guard cause mass str 8 blast templates instant death whole units of tyranid warriors making them pretty much unplayanle while guards own orgryn are s t5.

carldooley
13-07-2012, 13:12
I personally dont like Guard cause mass str 8 blast templates instant death whole units of tyranid warriors making them pretty much unplayanle while guards own orgryn are s t5.

warriors = troops. ogryns = elite, and one less PBS, Marbo, or stormtrooper squad.

My circle forgives me for playing guard on account of the fact that I very rarely bring the same list twice.

mercury14
13-07-2012, 13:18
In 4th edition Eldar skimmers were pretty much unkillable, so if it's that old a group they might have had a point about them being OP.

I just started playing in 5th.

TimLeeson
13-07-2012, 14:33
to the OP, dunno! sometimes you do meet some odd folk. I had one person tell me in a rather snarky way that because I dislike vehicles (im not a fan of the models, they don't suit my taste is all) and prefer mostly to all footsoldiers I "should" go play WHF the other day. Dunno why people have weird biases like that myself...seems kind of absurd to me!

Lord Damocles
13-07-2012, 14:51
Face it guys, GW don't balance points at all, they literally make it up as they go along, i very much doubt that there's an actual formula. If its a kit they want to sell, you bet your ass it'll be cheap points and good.
Counter point: Pyrovore.

:p

Blinder
13-07-2012, 15:24
Counter point: Pyrovore.

:p

Pyr-a-what-now?

(heh)

I have to say, I am actually a bit surprised that the IG-hate has lasted as long as it has in a general form. When the 3.5 book came out I remember a lot of whining and doomsaying ("OMG they get better just for standing next to each other!!!" "OMG they can upgrade to BS 3.5!!!") but it died down pretty quickly once everyone realized that guardsmen were, in fact, still guardsmen. I figured similar would happen with the bulk of the new book, because it mainly just let us actually play under the existing ruleset and a lot of the doomsaying ("OMG AP3 lasguns!!!" "OMG they can un-pin themselves!!!") turned out to not be game-breaking after all. I figured it would basically die down to a healthy disdain for valk-spam, similar to the way (for the folks in my area at least) chronic cases of "nob biker syndrome" continued to garner some flak but it was the specific combo, not the whole book.

I completely agree about the valk/vendetta being stupidly cheap, though...

Vaktathi
13-07-2012, 15:31
I personally dont like Guard cause mass str 8 blast templates instant death whole units of tyranid warriors making them pretty much unplayanle while guards own orgryn are s t5.Please realize however that Ogryn are generally seen as awful, and point for point your Warriors will tear them apart in CC.




Probably my favorite Guard hate comes from people who were so used to the Guard being a punching bag in 3rd and 4th editions that when the 5th edition codex came out it upset the natural order of things. I suppose this attitude was reinforced by most of the fiction and art (with some exceptions like Gaunt's Ghosts) where the Guard exist as something for the big bad guys or heros to slaughter effortlessly. A guy from the last gaming group I played in before moving to Europe got pretty upset when a 30 man power blob killed off a 5 man squad of lightning claw Terminators because "Guard should never win in close combat".This is actually one of the biggest things I used to run into, especially in previous editions. I remember in 4E miraculously beating a mech eldar player one time and him getting miffed because "guard should never beat the Eldar, it's just not fluffy"...

Thankfully this attitude has *mostly* passed as 5th advanced and 6th is upon us, but it's still there with some and IG never being quite on par with other armies until 2009 dating all the way back to 2nd edition didn't help.

I played a starter game against a new-ish guy a couple months ago, just brought a couple infantry platoons with autocanons/grenade launchers and a handful of meltaguns at 500pts but because I brought IG instead of Space Marines or something he thought I was going out of my way to be easy on his Space Marines and though IG would be an easy push-over. After the game he said "I didn't realize they had SO. MANY. GUNS."

EDMM
13-07-2012, 15:36
with the new ally rules in the rulebook, guard are looking at just getting stronger. Just look at two HQs in the GK book - karadread and coteaz. for the low price of 112 pts, leafblower is still going strong (coteaz + 3 warrior henchman troops choice). then there is karadread - get an infantry squad stuck into combat with something nasty, and drop OSRs onto them. . .

add to that, they are a go to ally with access to CCS with Astropath & OotF, Marbo, stormtroopers, or a PBS, Vendettas\Valkyries and Hydras.

Oh look! Now the "Leafblower" includes... Inquisitors?? :wtf:

This is perhaps the best indication that the term means ABSOLUTELY nothing at all.

Iskandar
13-07-2012, 15:37
The original list described as "Leafblower" included an Inquisitor for Emperor's Tarot.

SquigBoy Extraordinaire
13-07-2012, 15:41
Or these people can just taylor their army lists better and stop whinning.
Leaf Blowers only work if you allow them. I play Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons and Space Wolves and never lost against Imperial Guard.
Just find a way to play your game instead of playing the opponents game.

Alternatively, play chess, as they are all for armies being the same accross the table.

Athlan na Dyr
14-07-2012, 05:49
There are people who hate Guard? :confused:

A possible reason might be how none of Cruddace's other codices or army books ever lived up to the Guard Dex, leading to jealousy. Another might be this fabled 'leafblower', whatever the hell that is.
However, one should never forget that prior to the current dex Guard were whipping boys. The old guard of IG players weren't there for list power or to rofl-stomp everyone into the ground with an uber army, but to play the army that appealed to them and list power be damned. Such players, whilst rare, are deserving of a fair measure of respect for sticking it out.
Yes, there will be the new player with his basecoated (if that) infantrymen who merely started the army because the internet said it was powerful. Yes there will be 'those players' who insist on spamming the broken units of a codex in a friendly environment. Unfortunate fact of wargamming is that such people exist in all factions and IG should hardly be singled out for it.
To be perfectly frank, anyone who paints as many blasted infantrymen as a Guard player has to be pretty damn passionate about his force. Let him have his day in the sun at last.

Haddock
14-07-2012, 06:00
Sounds like a socially maladjusted chap who wants to feel superior by putting down strangers, but without the intellect to form coherent opinions of his own. They're a common enough type if you hang around gamers long enough.

Best to dismiss him with a laugh.

this could not be a more truer statement. I was sitting in my game store with a friend talking about guard one time. This guy came in and while we were talking, walked up said guard wasn't playable without spaming vendettas or chimeras. He then walked away. Who the hell walks into someone elses conversation says something like that then just walks off. He played his version of leafblower all the time, thus why after that incident, we started calling him dickblower.

carldooley
14-07-2012, 06:07
we started calling him dickblower.

I tremble to think of what my group calls me behind my back. Commissar Carl was the start, and they want me to do a fake commercial about 'Commissar Carl and his used tank lot'.

Haddock
14-07-2012, 06:12
lol it wasnt the list I cared about so such, it was the guy being the kinda guy that gets named dickblower. Personally I welcome mech guard, my orks have never lost to it. I say the better player wins more often then not. This is a dice game after all.

TheDoctor
14-07-2012, 08:24
Why the Guard hate? Because out local Guard player calls me cheesy for full use of Harlequin shenanigans, while he happily fields 4+ Vendettas/Vultures/Valks. Such ************ that Vultures are easily able to blow away my 2 Nightwings.

Shamana
14-07-2012, 11:27
I think it boils down to: key units in the codex are undercosted for what they do (or overpowered for what they cost), and some work together very well. They also worked very well with the edition rules for 5E, and I think it hasn't gotten any worse.

5e made transports indispensable, and the guard got an incredible transport - somewhat resilient (better than the rhino from the front), with 2 decent built-in guns, lots of fire points that could now shoot any weapon (not just lasguns), and fairly cheap. It's a dedicated transport, so via platoons the guard players could fields pretty much as many as they wanted. It had also the standard smoke launchers/lights, not that great but something imperial vehicles usually get free and others don't. Note that the Chimera got a huge discount from the 4th codex: the basic 5e codex configuration would cost something like 40 points more in the 4th one and that's before the firepoints change. Yes, I've heard that the chimera wasn't good in 4th, but that was a MAJOR boost, on top of the edition making vehicles better. Some of it actually makes no sense - the codex itself talks about some (most, unless 3 guardsmen could squeze and fire from a top hatch) operating remote lasguns, yet all fire points allow special weapons.

Troops were vital in 5th, and could make the vehicle score: the guard had lots of cheap troops, including some with decent BS (4) and access to special guns. That was good on its own, and worked well with the chimeras. They also had orders - special abilities, a bit like mini-psychic powers, inbuilt in the squad, and almost impossible to foil. Not a gamebreaker in itself, but good and "free" on cheap models. Being able to blob units into a huge horde was also valuable for holding ground and made good use of the cover rules and wound allocation. Adding a commissar with a cloak for unit stealth was just mean.

Tanks: the guard always had good shooting, and in fact should have good armor units - that's part of its schtick. Hard to enjoy it when you have several of those guys firing at you though. For its points, some of the leman russ variants - like the main one - are hard to match: hard armor at the front and sides, big gun but also some secondary ones that don't leave you helpless if one gets blown off. Being a lumbering behemoth let it move and fire, too. Some were crap, granted, but they had the tools they need. They could also take them in squadrons... though that wasn't so great in 5th.

Reserve manipulation: via advisors, guard players could boost reserve rolls or mess up with their opponents quite well, and somewhat cheap.

Fliers: This is what imo pissed a lot of people, and I can't say I disagree. First, fluffwise there was a big thing about how the Imperial guard and the Imperial navy (which includes air force) are separate and kept divided due to the Imperium's propaganda, and now the guard has pseudo-fliers - fast skimmers. This was the first codex to introduce such units, btw, and Cruddace gave the valkyrie a heck of a buff from its FW incarnation to represent the loss of flier status - better armor (+1 to front and sides), extra armor for free, a ton of special rules, and he made it 30% cheaper. Then he made the vendetta and gave it 3 lascannons - normally very expensive guns, and made them twin-linked, which makes them more accurate than SM guns (75% to hit, as opposed to 66 for BS 4 and 50 for regular BS 3). This all cost a total of 30 points - SMs pay more to put a lascannon on a predator. Oh, and both vehicles are transports. Fast, reasonably tough skimmers used to be an Eldar and to a point Tau schtick - now the IG out of nowhere got something that put theirs to shame. The fliers were one of the biggest issues with the guard imo - they could cost 25% more (and the vendetta without transport) and they'd still be good. You could also get them in transports - more on that later.

Hydras: a chimera-chassis tank that had 2 TL autocannons and a heavy bolter that could ignore most jetbike/skimmer cover saves. Skimmers were already not what they used to be, and against some armies this was very, very nasty. Oh, and cheap.

Artillery: the Guard should be among the leaders there, but the manticore was a bit much in non-apocalypse games. Several S10 large blast barrages per shot?

Specialist units and characters: marbo is a great unit assassin, Straken could make the guard surprisingly nasty in melee (the blob option didn't hurt either),

Overall, it made for an army that was unpleasant to deal with for some players, especially if it chose to flood the field in cheap armor - a tactic 5e rewarded. It also had the right tools to deal with such lists.

So how has that all changed in 6th? Overall, cover became worse and shooting became more useful (both due to the cover nerf and overwatch); RF guns were particularly boosted. Guess who is one of the best shooting armies with tons of RF fire on infantry? Vehicles became a bit more fragile, but otoh you can fire overwatch from fire points, so the chimera is still hard to match (though ghost ark does it and more). Vehicle squadrons were significantly buffed due to immobilization no longer destroying a vehicle, and blasts are now full strength against vehicles even if the center is outside the armor - which is good news for russes and manticores. The hydra is still dirt cheap and great against fliers, but now loses out against non-skimmers/fliers. Fliers were the big winner though - after the Vendetta/Valkyrie had a BIG boost in the last codex for NOT being fliers, now they ARE fliers, yet keep all their goodies - and there are pretty few AA guns yet. The current rules make gunships better against fliers than most interceptors, and being able to choose whether to zoom and hover is a bonus over zoom-only aircraft or fast speeders.

Overall, there are some ways to make a guard army very unpleasant for your opponent. Not just hard to beat: actively unpleasant.

Xerkics
14-07-2012, 13:45
Oh please point for point... Warriors never make it anywhere near a guardsman when you have like 4+ instand death pie dishes thrown at them per turn and you can have tanks as both fast attack and hs while nid choice of dealing with them is mainly zoanthropes.

The fact that orgryns are t5 is rediculous and just another example of crudfaces idiocy. Just because all the other stuff is so much better doesmt make them bad .

Warriors will cost in excess of 40 points if you want to be able to kill sm with them and tgey might just as well be 1w models as they get targeted with id weapons all the time in which guard is the biggest offender.

Xerkics
14-07-2012, 13:49
Nm Venom cannons is the only anti tank weapon in the game that cant blow up a tank with a single shot due to -1. Plus no more outflanking gs to glance tanks. 6th ed severly gimped tyranid ability to kill tanks, where as in the 5th venom cannon could still wreck a tank on a 6 now you cant. Not sure if tanks can roll to resist zoanthrope psychic lances as well. And yes good luck vector striking side armour 13 with str 5-6.
and carnifexes are as criminally overcosted as IG tanks and flyers are undercosted. Just compare harpy at 160 points to Valk at what 100? T just 1 over sm to armour 12.+ Being shot down by guardsmen shooting at it for s9 ap1 hit.

PANZERBUNNY
14-07-2012, 16:00
If people played games on larger tables, the dynamic of the game would change. SHOCK, try putting 2 of the normal sized gaming tables together. More Terrain etc. You get the idea.

PANZERBUNNY
14-07-2012, 16:08
If people played games on larger tables, the dynamic of the game would change. SHOCK, try putting 2 of the normal sized gaming tables together. More Terrain etc. You get the idea.

Damocles8
14-07-2012, 17:23
Nm Venom cannons is the only anti tank weapon in the game that cant blow up a tank with a single shot due to -1. Plus no more outflanking gs to glance tanks. 6th ed severly gimped tyranid ability to kill tanks, where as in the 5th venom cannon could still wreck a tank on a 6 now you cant. Not sure if tanks can roll to resist zoanthrope psychic lances as well. And yes good luck vector striking side armour 13 with str 5-6.
and carnifexes are as criminally overcosted as IG tanks and flyers are undercosted. Just compare harpy at 160 points to Valk at what 100? T just 1 over sm to armour 12.+ Being shot down by guardsmen shooting at it for s9 ap1 hit.

How are Venom cannons at -1?

Gertjan
14-07-2012, 17:26
How are Venom cannons at -1?

It's part of their rules, they get -1 on the dmg roll when they score a penetrating hit.

Chem-Dog
14-07-2012, 19:56
Warriors will cost in excess of 40 points if you want to be able to kill sm with them and tgey might just as well be 1w models as they get targeted with id weapons all the time in which guard is the biggest offender.

IF you are fighting Guard, why are your Warriors equipped for dealing with Marines? Anyway, that S10 required for ID isn't the only way to kill Oggies, virtually everyone in the game ignores their 5+ armour as standard, I've lost innumerable Ogryn to Bolters and the like before now simply because every wounding hit is a wound and at Initiative 2, much the same happens in Combat.


6th ed severly gimped tyranid ability to kill tanks, where as in the 5th venom cannon could still wreck a tank on a 6 now you cant. Not sure if tanks can roll to resist zoanthrope psychic lances as well. And yes good luck vector striking side armour 13 with str 5-6.
and carnifexes are as criminally overcosted as IG tanks and flyers are undercosted. Just compare harpy at 160 points to Valk at what 100? T just 1 over sm to armour 12.+ Being shot down by guardsmen shooting at it for s9 ap1 hit.

Really?! In the game where it's now possible to destroy a tank with just 3 glancing hits, in an army that's chock full of rending (that's AP2 and therefore+1 on the Damage table) and Monstrous Creatures (with "Smash"). In a game where you're never likely to need worse than 3+ to hit a Tank. You're telling me Tyranids got gimped against vehicles? As I read through the rules, I honestly thought most of it would cheer Tyranid players up.

Tellos
14-07-2012, 20:25
i've been a guard player since the release of the plastic cadians and always loved playing them.
I always play them as their background suggest, with at least 1 full strength infantry platoon and
at least 2 tanks, these can be of any design(including forge world). When the 5th edition codex came
out and saw they had orders, i was happy, as it fitted the army. However after several games with the
new codex and the whining of my opponent who said they where to powerfull, and even going so far as
to say imperial guard should be banned, the joy was soon over. I basically stopped playing a game of 40K
until we sort things out.

For the part of valkyries and vendetta's they belong to the elysian drop troops and such like, not in a regular
imperial guard army. the same goes for chimera's, a few can be in a normal guard army, or in an army like the
steel legion. I think themed armies are the way to go with it, but with all its strength and weaknesses.
They also should cost a little more, as 55 points for a chimera with weapons is a real drop from a chimera that was
70 points without weapons.

Cheers
Tellos

Xerkics
14-07-2012, 21:32
Last edition result 5 wreck 6 blow up. This edition 5 imobilized 6 dead. As its -1 on non open topped you can only ever get immob.

Tay051173096
14-07-2012, 21:47
Griffon mortars are harsh, cheap for what they do thankfully you rarely see them...

Miredorf
15-07-2012, 00:07
The only thing i hate about the book is veterans being unlimited core troops meaning people will use them instead normal platoons most of the time and the vendetta outclassing necron/dark eldar flyers without sweat.

Commissar Davis
15-07-2012, 00:39
The only thing i hate about the book is veterans being unlimited core troops meaning people will use them instead normal platoons most of the time and the vendetta outclassing necron/dark eldar flyers without sweat.

People take veterans because they don't want to spend forever with troops or carry a load.

Got to ask... how exactly does the Vendetta out class the flying croissant?

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 00:42
the vendetta outclassing necron/dark eldar flyers without sweat.

The more ancient the race, the crappier the vehicles get (eldar, necrons, and yes.. orks)

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 00:54
My beef with IG players is that they complained incessantly all through 3rd and 4th despite always having competitive codexes (albeit hard to use properly, similar to old DE). And many are still not happy now that they have a point-and-click easy-mode army.

Fixer
15-07-2012, 01:09
Rick. Are you suggesting we need a Commissariat for not only the Imperial Guard but the people who play Imperial Guard as well?

"I hear of some dissension in the ranks. You survived the cull of the complainers of the 4th. Now the Emperor has seen fit to grant you his finest weapons you complain that they are too simple to use? You will see the errors of your ways gentlemen, before me and my bolt pistol help you repaint the walls of this room in a refreshing new shade called 'hint of brain'."

Shamana
15-07-2012, 01:21
People take veterans because they don't want to spend forever with troops or carry a load.

Got to ask... how exactly does the Vendetta out class the flying croissant?

The doom scythe?

- 30% or so cheaper
- fast attack rather than HS
- can take several in a squadron
- better armor on front/sides
- is a transport
- longer range guns
- more accurate guns (BS 3 TL = 75% chance to hit, BS 4 = 67% chance to hit)
- zooming, it effectively has aerial assault (3 guns), can also hover for a better jink save.

Now, the DS does get some advantages, but the above is pretty serious. Does Living Armor repair hull points, btw? Otherwise its benefit is for penetrating hits only.

EDMM
15-07-2012, 01:28
The more ancient the race, the crappier the vehicles get (eldar, necrons, and yes.. orks)

What world are you living in where Annihilation Barges aren't the best ground based vehicle in the game?

What world are you living in where Scythes aren't amazing flyers?

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 01:45
What world are you living in where Annihilation Barges aren't the best ground based vehicle in the game?

What world are you living in where Scythes aren't amazing flyers?

On Mars, industrial zone 783, subsector H-3.

I'm speaking of their toughness though. As far as structural strength goes, the ancient races' vehicles are more akin to paper than the imperial, chaos and Tau ones. At least (some) necron vehicles have quantum shielding to migitate AV11.

Tellos
15-07-2012, 10:09
People take veterans because they don't want to spend forever with troops or carry a load.



In my opinion then you have chosen the wrong army. imperial guard use a lot of infantry, its the same with orks,
they also use a lot of infantry. If you don't want to paint that many and still want shooty, take tau.;)

On the other hand, they should have made veteran squads 0-1 per platoon you take. You have the background
of a lot of bodies in it and still get scoring veterans.

Didn't had much trouble throughout the edition with the guard, nothing a lot of infantry can't take on:evilgrin:

Cheers

Vaktathi
15-07-2012, 10:43
My beef with IG players is that they complained incessantly all through 3rd and 4th despite always having competitive codexes (albeit hard to use properly, similar to old DE). And many are still not happy now that they have a point-and-click easy-mode army.I think many would disagree with you there. The two 3E IG books were never seen as particularly competitive, rarely taken seriously, certainly never anything on the level of Eldar, Chaos, Necrons, Tau Space Marines, etc, and much of their success came from gimmick builds (e.g. the very Win Big/Lose Big drop troops armies). LoS and combat rules made them very difficult when quite often LoS was difficult beyond 18-24" for most of the board with the area terrain rules, and often you'd get situations where a couple units made it to CC and just consolidated through everything without facing any threats or getting shot at, and it didn't help that their tanks were mediocre at best (Chimeras were a joke, Basilisks were and still are just not suited with a 36" minimum indirect fire range, Hellhounds were "ok" and Leman Russ tanks rarely hit anything with old scatter rules and often payed lots of points for weapons they couldn't use in conjunction with their main weapon).

I don't think I ever saw anyone consider IG to be particularly competitive outside a couple fringe elements (there are always people who will say any codex is as competitive as any other) during 3E and 4E. They certainly never had the sillyness Eldar did of invinci-skimmers, disruption tables, strong psykers, multi-shot plasma weapons able to be mounted on anything and everything, etc. Eldar had it *very* good every edition but 5th (in many ways Eldar are often cited as the prime motivator for the radical overhaul of 2E to 3E as a result of their ridiculousness in 2nd), and even then weren't too bad for the first half of 5th edition until lots of anti-skimmer/ridiculous SW/BA psykers and the like started being seen.

With the current codex, there are many issues, there's about half the book that's decent, a third or so that routinely show up in tournament lists, and half the army (often the interesting stuff) that is junk and never sees a table (Vanquishers, Ogryn, Punishers, Stormtroopers, Sentinels and especially sentinels with any sort of upgrades, Yarrick, Conscripts, etc). You've got a few units that synergize ridiculously well (though often without each other aren't particularly capable, such as Vets or Chimeras on non-Vet/Command units), and make for very solid armies, but there's a lot of the army that nobody ever sees.


In my opinion then you have chosen the wrong army. imperial guard use a lot of infantry, its the same with orks,
they also use a lot of infantry. If you don't want to paint that many and still want shooty, take tau.;) There are perfectly fluffy examples of elite mechanized IG regiments, not everything is infantry wave assaults.

Khornies & milk
15-07-2012, 11:17
Damn the anti-IG mob here on Warseer are a whiny bunch aren't they...makes me laugh, and so very happy this isn't my main site.

Yes the current IG Codex is a top tier one, but don't for one second try and tell me that if/when any 40K player has an army that has/gets a competitive Codex that they don't make lists and field an army that makes use of the decent unit choices found within their Codex...I'd call you out on it.

I think I'll keep an eye on all the sooky Eldar/Tau/Vanilla SM whoever players and see what lists they come up with when the have a new Codex in their sweaty little hands. I bet there'll be some competitive lists posted regardless of what they say now.

Commissar Davis
15-07-2012, 13:13
Damn the anti-IG mob here on Warseer are a whiny bunch aren't they...makes me laugh, and so very happy this isn't my main site.

Yes the current IG Codex is a top tier one, but don't for one second try and tell me that if/when any 40K player has an army that has/gets a competitive Codex that they don't make lists and field an army that makes use of the decent unit choices found within their Codex...I'd call you out on it.

I think I'll keep an eye on all the sooky Eldar/Tau/Vanilla SM whoever players and see what lists they come up with when the have a new Codex in their sweaty little hands. I bet there'll be some competitive lists posted regardless of what they say now.

Yeah, SM have their own well known cheese as do all the others that have 5ed codices. They only cry because IG are not a pushover any more, and have yet to adapt to that.


In my opinion then you have chosen the wrong army. imperial guard use a lot of infantry, its the same with orks,
they also use a lot of infantry. If you don't want to paint that many and still want shooty, take tau.;)

On the other hand, they should have made veteran squads 0-1 per platoon you take. You have the background
of a lot of bodies in it and still get scoring veterans.

Didn't had much trouble throughout the edition with the guard, nothing a lot of infantry can't take on:evilgrin:

Cheers

Or you could actually read the some BL and the IG codex to know that stereotype is not true. In fact have Vets facing off against the biggest threat in the battle is very fluffy, and goes well with the table top game.


The doom scythe?

- 30% or so cheaper
- fast attack rather than HS
- can take several in a squadron
- better armor on front/sides
- is a transport
- longer range guns
- more accurate guns (BS 3 TL = 75% chance to hit, BS 4 = 67% chance to hit)
- zooming, it effectively has aerial assault (3 guns), can also hover for a better jink save.

Now, the DS does get some advantages, but the above is pretty serious. Does Living Armor repair hull points, btw? Otherwise its benefit is for penetrating hits only.

The flying croissant can teleport in units from from reserve, so that unit is saved if anything happens to it just like the Monolith, can take twin linked weapons as well as the deathray. All the 5ed books are pretty much on par with each other, if you are using a 4ed one, then your problem is simply being out of date.

Cthell
15-07-2012, 21:17
The flying croissant can teleport in units from from reserve, so that unit is saved if anything happens to it just like the Monolith, can take twin linked weapons as well as the deathray. All the 5ed books are pretty much on par with each other, if you are using a 4ed one, then your problem is simply being out of date.

Wrong Scythe, the "transport" is the Nightscythe

Shamana
15-07-2012, 22:01
The flying croissant can teleport in units from from reserve, so that unit is saved if anything happens to it just like the Monolith, can take twin linked weapons as well as the deathray. All the 5ed books are pretty much on par with each other, if you are using a 4ed one, then your problem is simply being out of date.

Yep, I think you mixed up two scythes - one has deathray, and the other is a transport. And as for codex strength - generally I think codex:SM is somewhat behind the other SM codices, the guard has a few units that work a bit too well, and the tyrannid codex has some serious issues that make it notably worse than some.

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 22:01
often you'd get situations where a couple units made it to CC and just consolidated through everything without facing any threats or getting shot at,

Indeed, rampaging melee units were a major hurdle for terrible gunline players.

Cthell
15-07-2012, 22:12
often you'd get situations where a couple units made it to CC and just consolidated through everything without facing any threats or getting shot at,

Partly because people forgot that if a unit swept/consolidated into an enemy unit, the enemy unit could shoot the sweeping/consolidating unit in that shooting phase

ftayl5
16-07-2012, 00:19
So I'm wondering, because I'm getting into 40K and quite like Guard but don't want to have to struggle to find a game, what would someone have to take in a guard army to not be hated by everyone?
What do women/players of other armies want?

Chem-Dog
16-07-2012, 00:25
My beef with IG players is that they complained incessantly all through 3rd and 4th despite always having competitive codexes (albeit hard to use properly, similar to old DE). And many are still not happy now that they have a point-and-click easy-mode army.

The "competitive" Codexes you mention had one, maybe two, working builds and even those were highly situational. A more focused example of the problem with many, if not all, of the current Codexes. Some things work well, others suck out loud, what you see is a good number of Guardsmen doing what every other Codex user does, run with what works.


In my opinion then you have chosen the wrong army. imperial guard use a lot of infantry, its the same with orks,
they also use a lot of infantry. If you don't want to paint that many and still want shooty, take tau.;)

On the other hand, they should have made veteran squads 0-1 per platoon you take. You have the background
of a lot of bodies in it and still get scoring veterans.

I play Veteran Mech. Why?
I've played IG since RT. I Adopted the Steel Legion pretty much the first moment I saw them and put a lot of time building the army. And because a majority of my battles take place at sub 2k and playing Mech with Infantry Platoon at less than 2k points is nigh on impossible (660 points bare minimum FOC satisfaction, no unit upgrades, just a bunch of guys with Lasguns in Chimeras, virtually useless), you may just squeeze in a couple of decent sized platoons in, but you'll have nothing left for anything else. With Vets meaning my bare minimum FOC is satisfied for a lot less points, I can vary my army composition. Not that I ever go to battle without at least 4 squads.

Commissar Davis
16-07-2012, 00:58
Yep, I think you mixed up two scythes - one has deathray, and the other is a transport. And as for codex strength - generally I think codex:SM is somewhat behind the other SM codices, the guard has a few units that work a bit too well, and the tyrannid codex has some serious issues that make it notably worse than some.

A flying croissant is a flying croissant. I'll remember that comment about SM next time someone hates on a Vulcan or Lysdaner list, or droppodding Dreads. Remember how broken people were calling it when it first dropped and Hammernators were spammed? Guard have some good units, as does every other codex, that pull the rest up. Hating on IG is delusional and irrational, not being able to accept that you got beat by a army whose main units are on par with Tau.

Nymie_the_Pooh
16-07-2012, 03:35
I think part of the problem is that many people's concept of an all comers list is actually an anti-MEQ list. They might take one or two units to cope with other aspects such as hordes. This leaves them scrambling to try and fit in options specifically to fight Imperial Guard while continuing to be an anti-MEQ list as that is what they are going to need against most opponents. That doesn't invalidate what people are saying about flyers and synergies, but in general an anti-MEQ list won't be optimized against Guard and therefore will struggle.

Vaktathi
16-07-2012, 11:24
Indeed, rampaging melee units were a major hurdle for terrible gunline players.I like how you ignored every other bit of my post just to address this, without acknowledging the other issues I noted as being majorly painful to IG, and leading to consolidation into new combats being removed from subsequent editions.

When you often got only one round of fire at an enemy unit (sometimes none!) between infilitrate, LoS blocking area terrain, fast skimmers, etc, and they could consolidate into a new combat against a unit that never got a chance to do anything between combats, it's not hard to see where it was a major issue when your army is made up of lots of S3 T3 WS3 I3 Ld7 (sometimes Ld8) 5+sv units reliant on long range shooting.

And with the 3E IG books, there wasn't a whole lot of alternative to gunline. Drop Troops was there, but half the missions didn't allow Deep Strike (in which case, guess what, it had no alternative but to play as a gunline) and a couple of bad rolls could pooch the entire game. Mechanized was a joke (oh hey, your transport took a penetrating hit and only got stunned, well, your passengers automatically disembark. Oh, you exploded? everthing takes a wound on a 4+ that rerolls failures and the survivors are auto-pinned. Yeah, that skimmer transport over there? He doesn't care about any of that...). Armored? Rarely allowed in many places and very easily destroyed by most popular builds that spammed tons of plasma and lascannons.


Did you lose your memory of previous editions entirely, or are you simply re-writing it to suit a different narrative?

Shamana
16-07-2012, 12:42
A flying croissant is a flying croissant. I'll remember that comment about SM next time someone hates on a Vulcan or Lysdaner list, or droppodding Dreads. Remember how broken people were calling it when it first dropped and Hammernators were spammed? Guard have some good units, as does every other codex, that pull the rest up. Hating on IG is delusional and irrational, not being able to accept that you got beat by a army whose main units are on par with Tau.

Stop with your croissant talk already, you're making me hungry :p .

As for the SM, yes, they had some very powerful lists when they came out, and compared to before they benefited from some changes in the design philosophy - as have most codices since. TH/SS terminators haven't become obsolete at all. I do think that overall the "vanilla" SM codex is somewhat below the marine codices since in power level, though. That doesn't mean it's weak, just that I don't agree with your statement that all 5E codices are the same in power level.

For the record, I don't "hate on" anything. I just believe that the people who have issues with some guard builds might not be wholly biased and delusional. Every codex has its detractors, especially from among players with older codices who are a victim of a power level inflation. Occasionally, they are right.

tuebor
16-07-2012, 15:04
I like how you ignored every other bit of my post just to address this, without acknowledging the other issues I noted as being majorly painful to IG, and leading to consolidation into new combats being removed from subsequent editions.

When you often got only one round of fire at an enemy unit (sometimes none!) between infilitrate, LoS blocking area terrain, fast skimmers, etc, and they could consolidate into a new combat against a unit that never got a chance to do anything between combats, it's not hard to see where it was a major issue when your army is made up of lots of S3 T3 WS3 I3 Ld7 (sometimes Ld8) 5+sv units reliant on long range shooting.

And with the 3E IG books, there wasn't a whole lot of alternative to gunline. Drop Troops was there, but half the missions didn't allow Deep Strike (in which case, guess what, it had no alternative but to play as a gunline) and a couple of bad rolls could pooch the entire game. Mechanized was a joke (oh hey, your transport took a penetrating hit and only got stunned, well, your passengers automatically disembark. Oh, you exploded? everthing takes a wound on a 4+ that rerolls failures and the survivors are auto-pinned. Yeah, that skimmer transport over there? He doesn't care about any of that...). Armored? Rarely allowed in many places and very easily destroyed by most popular builds that spammed tons of plasma and lascannons.


Did you lose your memory of previous editions entirely, or are you simply re-writing it to suit a different narrative?

I remember always being told "just make sure your units are more than 6" inches apart from each other but maybe where I played used a lot more terrain than normal but there simply wasn't enough space in my deployment zone to do that, at least before half of my army had been slaughtered and by then it was too late.

Inquisitor Shego
16-07-2012, 17:06
I played Guard in 2E, and no matter your build you played fluffy, as in you died horribly waiting for the Space Marines to save you from a 2,000 point Army containing Abaddon and his 6 dudes. Seriously it put Draigowing to shame. 2E Guard were so bad there were white dwarf articles trying to calm the dissent and give us multiple tactica (which only ever consisted of SPAM OGRYNS).

I played Guard in 3E and 4E (Traitor Guard using loyalist list) and had an absolute whale of a time with my huge infantry blobs, but the armies were boring. You deploy, you stand there, and you roll dice. There's no dynamic action, and after painting 150+ models I found myself wanting so much more.

In 5E I avoided the infamous Mech spam simply because my planet's background did not warrant so many vehicles as we were cannon fodder to a chaos horde. Anyway, my friend played Mech quite well, and for fluffy reasons too (he's a savlar chem dog player and his chimeras are all botched repair jobs looking like a gypsy circus). I soon noticed he simply wasn't playing a true guard army. His weaknesses (soft infantry) were negated by an armoured shell. Now sure mech exists, and should have its place, but the problem to me fell with the edition not the codex.

The Vendetta/Valkyrie on the other hand is an abomination. Undercosted, OP, and once upon a time it was a rare treasure the Imperium gave to its best and brightest. Now I see more of them than Leman Russes. To me a true Imperial Guard army is one that takes a hundred casulties and still wins, indifferent of the cost. We shrug our shoulders and grind you down. We're the one army that stands a chance beating nids on attrition. Sure the Imperium has some Elite units, and every player is entitled to take them, but as time ticks on, the incentive has evaporated to fill out on those generic joes. I guess this is why I abandoned my Imperial Guard (I now do DE), because Cruddace and the edition seemed to abandon me. However there are good Imperial players out there too, sticking to the fluff, or seriously making air-cav because they love the idea of it.

On a final point I won't elaborate as I'm heading to work - I do believe Leafblower exists. It is a concept, a style, not a list written in stone. It is as much the models a player brings as it is the mentality of that player. Leafblower to me is that player who calculates every point, every model, every aspect of wysiwig to ensure he anihilates his opponent, and his guard army moves from hobby or storytelling device to the pure destruction of his opponent.

My 2 cents

ConfessorTurpin
16-07-2012, 18:52
^^ I couldn't agree more. I've have all the bells and whistles to go mech or leaf blower or whatever other incarnations exist. Those lists only see the light of day in Apoc games. My lists are designed around... wait for it... infantry. Lots of Infantry. I strive for 150+. I believe in the theme behind the army. I want my Guard army to look like a Guard army (according to how I see it)- everything on the table works in support of the infantry.

carldooley
16-07-2012, 20:38
^^ I couldn't agree more. I've have all the bells and whistles to go mech or leaf blower or whatever other incarnations exist. Those lists only see the light of day in Apoc games. My lists are designed around... wait for it... infantry. Lots of Infantry. I strive for 150+. I believe in the theme behind the army. I want my Guard army to look like a Guard army (according to how I see it)- everything on the table works in support of the infantry.

sorry, my design philosophy is radically different than yours. I mech spam because it makes for a faster game, and I spent a lot of time in the local tournament circuit rather than playing in the beer & pretzel circle espoused by so many people. I remember one game (orks vs nids) that didn't get past turn two on account that they both had horde armies. By limiting myself to less than 20 models on the board, whether by reserves shenanigans or transport use, it made for a relatively quick game.

nowadays, we play relatively loosely (it helps that I have a hobby shop less than a 100 meters from my apartment) with hours to play a game rather than 90 minutes. The only reason that I get any games anymore is that I very rarely bring the same list twice.

Sexiest_hero
16-07-2012, 20:54
Just because, Guard had a weak codex is no reason for them to have had an OP one. Just because Chaos had an OP codex doesn't mean they deserved a weak one. Everybody deserves a balanced codex. The issue with the guard codex, is that there is a under-costed unit in ever FOC, that leads to not only the "Leafblower" army everybody whined about but also every guard army looking the same. Look, nobody wants guard to suck, I've been a foot guard player for years, in fact I'm sure some of my old battle reports are here.

Sons of Lorgar
16-07-2012, 21:18
I'm actually pleased this edition allows me to play my guard as I envisioned from the start.
Will be playing my first game for this ed this wensday using the following as a start at 1750pts:
Primary:
Salamander Cmnd vehicle HQ (FW)
2 mech inf platoons with three mutant inf. squads each. (FW autocannon/TL Hbolter turrets on all 8 chimeras)
1 Hydra Flak tank (FW)
Allies:
Dark Apostle (chaos lord, terminator, daemn wpn)
10 CSM on foot
Hell Blade interceptor

Chem-Dog
16-07-2012, 22:36
The only reason that I get any games anymore is that I very rarely bring the same list twice.

This is a sad state of affairs though, isn't it? Refusing to play because they are likely to lose.

I may be odd in this regard because I enjoy those battles where I'm unlikely to win. Own the fact you are doomed and set out to bloody your opponent's nose (metaphorically, of course).

Bergen Beerbelly
16-07-2012, 23:43
I can't tell you why others hate the IG but I do play them with my old Squat models as Imperial Guardsmen and my mole mortars and thudd guns act as mortars.

But I can tell you why I used to hate playing against mech IG in 5th edition with my Eldar. Without fail the IG would bring down my skimmers (pretty easy to do with Hydra Flak Tanks) full of Aspect Warriors.

Because Eldar Wave Serpents had only one access point I would be forced to bunch up my models as they disembarked from the destroyed transport.

Without fail, the next shot would usually be from an Eradicator or a Colossus. The STR and AP of both of those weapons, coupled with the fact you don't get a cover save means instant death with no saves for entire squads of Eldar.

Eldar can't compete with that. Guard reliably killed our only way to get into combat with pretty much all of our stuff by destroying our tanks with the ease of a hot knife through butter. They are the only army that give me fits when I play my Eldar no matter how I build my Eldar army.

And that's why I hate them.

Aluinn
16-07-2012, 23:59
because people usually judge a list as "leafblower" by mechanization more than anything else, and it really didn't have *that* many blast weapons. 2 medusa's, a manticore, and a couple valks with S4 rocket pods.

If by "people" you mean "uninformed people who heard it mentioned once but didn't really inquire as to the nature of the comp in detail", then yes, that is true. Leafblower, like SW Razorspam, has defining characteristics. They are: Spammed melta Vets in Chimeras (usually the max 6, certainly in 2k+) and 3 Vendettas. This is just like SW Razorspam being defined by spammed GH in Razorbacks and 3 squads of Long Fangs with missile launchers. Obviously there is room for comp variation within those broad paradigms, but due to the degree of spam, it's less than it seems, and those are the really meaningful units of these comps. The fact that you have some room when using them to take a few different things doesn't make the terms useless or meaningless.

The fact that you think Valkyries with rocket pods were a key factor is telling--they really had nothing to do with it. Leafblower existed as a dominant list in a metagame utterly dominated by mech in general, in which there was essentially no point to S4 blasts unless you were getting them "for free" with anti-vehicle weapons, e.g. in the case of missile launchers. The reason it often had Manticores/Medusas had little to do with the blasts and everything to do with multiple S10 shots which happen to be good at killing vehicles.

It was a mechspam list designed to de-mech other mechspam lists faster than they could de-mech it.

Of course in 6th Ed. it's pretty close to irrelevant, but it was a real thing, and the fact that people disagree about a definition doesn't mean it wasn't a real thing. If I say a potato is a vegetable and someone tells me it's a legume or a root or something, this doesn't suddenly make it useless to call something a potato, nor mean that there is no such thing as a potato.

Vaktathi
17-07-2012, 00:32
If by "people" you mean "uninformed people who heard it mentioned once but didn't really inquire as to the nature of the comp in detail", then yes, that is true. Leafblower, like SW Razorspam, has defining characteristics. They are: Spammed melta Vets in Chimeras (usually the max 6, certainly in 2k+) and 3 Vendettas. The actual "Leafblower" list that took 'Ard Boyz and spawned that silly term had zero vendettas, and only 2 or 3 chimeltavets squads at 2500pts. It had infantry platoons, silly stuff like grossly over-invested command squads with powerfists and FNP upgrades, and the like.

The type of list you are describing is what *some* consider "leafblower" but bears little resemblance to the actual "leafblower".






The fact that you think Valkyries with rocket pods were a key factor is telling--they really had nothing to do with it. Leafblower existed as a dominant list in a metagame utterly dominated by mech in general, in which there was essentially no point to S4 blasts unless you were getting them "for free" with anti-vehicle weapons, e.g. in the case of missile launchers. The reason it often had Manticores/Medusas had little to do with the blasts and everything to do with multiple S10 shots which happen to be good at killing vehicles. I never said anything about any of these weapons except that they were in the list, as someone tried defining "leafblower" by having lots of blast templates. It was merely a counting of what blast weapons were in there and showing that no, blast weapons were not really a defining hallmark of the list. I wasn't commenting on their utility or purpose.


I remember always being told "just make sure your units are more than 6" inches apart from each other but maybe where I played used a lot more terrain than normal but there simply wasn't enough space in my deployment zone to do that, at least before half of my army had been slaughtered and by then it was too late.
Indeed, between deployment types and terrain setups, it just wasn't possible much of the time.