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kefkah
13-07-2012, 22:04
From just having read the whole typo thing on teclis thread and how some people will,knowing that its not meant that way, do a ruling just to get a advantage, i wanted to do a post of some of the more un-spirited thing to do in warhammer.


Now, some things i dont take hard, like deploying a monster/chariot sideways to get some extra inches on the free reform. Now thats not my kind of gamestyle but i dont really care if people do it since it such a small advantage.

Having had played some tourneys, ive had come around, not the regular cheats like measuring that unit is 8 inches away and both agreeing to being somehow 9 inches next turn, to some strange and almost cheat rulings.

It has also teached me that the staff att GW stores dont know **** when it comes to rules :D.

The two biggest was when a GW staff did a ruling against me that my bsb with other trickster shard only makes 3 of his Phoneix Guards to reroll saves, ohwell.

The biggest was when a guy whined on me when i had seerstaph of saphery and rolling banishment with my archmage, GW staff gets called and says i cant have the same spell twice. I couldent find it, found the rule in the book when i went home, and he keept nagging me so i dropped it.

Though this is not such a cheat like enforcing a typo, more to the know-nothing GW local staff, but how common is this kind of play? and whats the worst you have seen?. Sometimes i just whant to play with my playgroup in case i meet up with one of thoose aggresive players and it dosent become such fun again.

Ultimate Life Form
13-07-2012, 22:24
Playing in a GW seems to invite trouble. The staff are human and it is totally understandable that they can't know everything; however they are the highest authority and you have to bow to their judgement no matter how stupid it may be. I too have witnessed them being misinformed about some very basic things. However their first and foremost interest lies not with the rules but rather with maintaining a calm and relaxed atmosphere in the shop and helping the game come along smoothly, if necessary by 'houseruling'. It is their house and their game after all. It is important that you understand that.

kefkah
13-07-2012, 22:44
Yeah, i know, i dont play at GW store anymore. And ofcourse i understand that, since i dident create a ruckus. I only meant, i made a list to counter or build my strategy around it, to meet a opponent who dosent like it and i get ruled out ( going to look for it in a rulebook is apperantly a nono after GW staff made a ruling) so yeah i learned my lesson. I still dont understand why they got a "hotline" to call in for rulings, or why you cant slap the BRB at them after a ruling. Thought they are very nice and serving otherwise. Clearly its not their game lol!.

I wonder if this is why mostly beginners ever go to a GW to play a game, but thats off-topic.

Tarian
13-07-2012, 22:51
Manners? Never grab someone's dice without asking, or touch their models without asking.

I've had people knock my models to the floor, break them, the just move off without saying anything. Ugh!

kefkah
13-07-2012, 22:58
Manners? Never grab someone's dice without asking, or touch their models without asking.

I've had people knock my models to the floor, break them, the just move off without saying anything. Ugh!


Woa, why would they do that, sounds uber-rude!.

But i have to say,you sound a little overprotetive with your dice :p fastest way make saves is just to roll the dices you got hit with.

Im not that overprotetive with my models,but yeah if your gonna look/touch asking is the best way. Well thats what i do and expeact others to do, im not the one to say no if they just gonna take away some casualites etc

Arli
13-07-2012, 23:23
I do not play in a GW, but I have seen my share of rules benders. I agree with the touching of models/dice. I do not care if anyone touches my models or dice, but I know some people who will actually trash their dice if someone else touches them! There is one person that occasionally plays in our club that will take an inch and stretch it to three inches. That will march with TK (which cannot march). The same guy will roll dice fast and pick them up even faster. Those dice are the hard to read kind and I have actually caught him saying that a 1 or 2 was a 5 or 6. It is so bad with this guy, that I will normally not play him. It is a running joke in our club too! Really sad.

Lord Inquisitor
13-07-2012, 23:35
The two biggest was when a GW staff did a ruling against me that my bsb with other trickster shard only makes 3 of his Phoneix Guards to reroll saves, ohwell.
There are exactly zero rules in the rulebook to cover how you deal with resolving hits against enemies in base contact with identical stats but differentially affected by a special rule like this. It's in desperate need of a FAQ. There are quite a few possible interpretations of how this should work and oddly enough the interpretation that only the models in base contact should have to re-roll is a common one. It was a perfectly reasonable interpretation.

But you need to understand that GW staff's interest is really just to get the game moving and speaking as an ex-staffer, most of the time you just wanted to resolve it quickly, you have better things to be doing relating to your actual job. You might have more reason to complain about a tournament judge who makes a wrong call but even then judges have to make a call and not being perfect, wrong calls happen. There's no point in dwelling on such things.

-Totenkopf-
13-07-2012, 23:41
only a problem if you're using loaded dice... ;)

Tarian
13-07-2012, 23:42
Woa, why would they do that, sounds uber-rude!.

But i have to say,you sound a little overprotetive with your dice :p fastest way make saves is just to roll the dices you got hit with.

Im not that overprotetive with my models,but yeah if your gonna look/touch asking is the best way. Well thats what i do and expeact others to do, im not the one to say no if they just gonna take away some casualites etc

Don't know why they didn't stop, I didn't get upset, though a "I'm sorry" would have been appreciated.

As for the dice, it's a superstition. They always roll better if they're rolled by your opponent!

EDIT: And they're most definitely not loaded, I just don't like people touching my dice! (Especially if they didn't ask.)

kefkah
13-07-2012, 23:44
Just to make it clear, i mostly got irritated that i couldent flip through the rulebook, as in the case of having the same spells twice,and i understood that it was his rule as i whent on the game. I dont hold it against the GW-staff, i just dont like to go to my local GW to play games anymore. Having spent the money and the time to be able to play the game, the best way wouldent be to make up stuff if you dont know the rule. But as you said, better not to dwell on such thing.

WyattEarp
14-07-2012, 00:03
There is one person that occasionally plays in our club that will take an inch and stretch it to three inches. That will march with TK (which cannot march). The same guy will roll dice fast and pick them up even faster. Those dice are the hard to read kind and I have actually caught him saying that a 1 or 2 was a 5 or 6.

I played in a league for a few months in my old FLGS, there were a few guys there like that, and they made playing the game no fun whatsoever. They are usually the biggest rules lawyers and the biggest benders of rules *edit* Not to mention that they would try to get over on me, because I was a beginner *edit*. I pretty much stick to my small group of friends that play at this point. I play Warhammer for fun, and as soon as it stops being fun, I stop playing.

To me, the worst thing I can think of is trying to pop into a FLGS to try to get a game...Personally I'd rather go without a game. It's sad that as much as I want to be social with my Warhammer addiction, it seems to me the average in-store players are not the people I want to be social with. In my experience, whenever I walk into a new store, I get met with the standard group of store-rats that "Mean Mug" me, as if I just walked in their front door, opened their fridge and slapped their mom. Granted that's not always the case, but I would say about 80% of the time for me. Not to mention the general lack of hygiene that some of those gentleman tend to display...that usually puts me off from wanting to talk to them, much less spend 2 hours playing a game with them.

Since we're talking about manners, I would say that most of the time the under 18's in the stores tend to have horrific manners, and an even worse idea of personal space...I've had kids start going through my bag pulling out models while I was waiting on a league game. Any wonder why I don't play at those stores anymore?

Sorry for the rant...guess I got a little off topic. :eek:

kefkah
14-07-2012, 00:18
To me, the worst thing I can think of is trying to pop into a FLGS to try to get a game...Personally I'd rather go without a game. It's sad that as much as I want to be social with my Warhammer addiction, it seems to me the average in-store players are not the people I want to be social with. In my experience, whenever I walk into a new store, I get met with the standard group of store-rats that "Mean Mug" me, as if I just walked in their front door, opened their fridge and slapped their mom. Granted that's not always the case, but I would say about 80% of the time for me. Not to mention the general lack of hygiene that some of those gentleman tend to display...that usually puts me off from wanting to talk to them, much less spend 2 hours playing a game with them.



Wow, you sum it up with words pretty good with words!. I remember when i only had one mate playing warhammer ( im in a very good and friendly gaming-club now) was on vacation and i whent to a non GW store to play, and you summed my exp very good, specially the "mean mug". I dont really get it with that "store" mentality.

Urgat
14-07-2012, 00:32
Played once at a (not local at all) GW store, won't do it again. For some reason the staff decreted that we would be playing w/o magic items, so I say fine, my opponent goes sure, fine. We deploy, and my opponent (skaven player) puts down... Ikkit Claw IIRC. That was 5th ed, for those who were already playing then, they probably remember how murderous SC could be back then. So of course I object, because to me, obviously, SC would have been out too if magic items are out, since they themselves have magic items. Opponent tells me that, well, he didn't buy a magic item, and lo and behold! the staff agrees with HIM. Well I'd come a long way to play there, so I "played" nonetheless. Got crushed to bits obviously, never rolled a dice in a GW store again after that. I still go to my local store every once in a blue moon, and the various bands of noisy pre-pubescent apes that are stuck to the gaming tables with their countless variations of space marines really don't make me want to ever try that experience again >>

WyattEarp
14-07-2012, 01:05
Yeah, that's another of my major issues with the GW stores...Fantasy are the bastard step-children. But I get what Urgat means about the 'Home Team'. I'm a stranger when I walk in the door, those guys know the staff because they're probably in the store half the day, every day. Why would the staff side with someone who might not ever show back up, and **** off the guy that's there every day?

In my opinion, the reason why this hobby seems to be dying has nothing to do with cost...it has to do with the community. If I hadn't played the game before and walked into a GW store, which for some is a huge step due to the stigma of being considered a nerd, and are met with semi-hostility by the 'local trolls'...that would really put me off buying ANYTHING, much less staying for a introductory game... I was introduced to Warhammer back in the mid 90's, but didn't play and never stepped foot in a GW until I lived in the UK in 2006. Luckily, the store in went to in the UK had a very good staff, and a very accepting community...also helped that I was an American and could bring them Mt. Dew...but I was a novelty, so I was accepted easily. When I got back to the states, I went to the Local GW and it was the complete opposite...granted the staff was as cordial as necessary...but the players made it seem like I was about as welcome as a roving band of Orcs.

Anyways, I digress...I'm currently deployed, I normally live in Northern VA...I need to find me a few more players to play against that doesn't require me to step foot in a GW to play. I'm not a pro, I'm not a power gamer...so if anyone lives in that area and knows of a good Fantasy group...let me know!

Cheers!

The bearded one
14-07-2012, 01:38
That sounds unlike the Gw experience I have. When a new person comes in to play a game, we'd welcome him with open arms, so that he might ocassionaly keep popping in. I like adding a new player to the circle, your local group can only give you so much untill dejavu sets in.

Moss
14-07-2012, 02:11
...
It has also teached me that the staff att GW stores dont know **** when it comes to rules :D.

...

Though this is not such a cheat like enforcing a typo, more to the know-nothing GW local staff...

This kind of talk/thinking kinda bothers me. Remember that these guys are basically mall employess. I mean, maybe the store isn't necessarily located IN a mall, but they work in retail. At it's core, it's a crap job (just like any retail job) for which they probably get paid like $10/hr (or less). Sure, they get to be surrounded by the hobby that they (hopefully) love, but it's still a retail job.

That said, it's also hard to expect them to know the rules any more than you do. In addition to their normal duties, you expect them to have ALL the rules to multiple gaming systems (and army books) memorized? Like Lord Inquisitor said, they have better things to do relating to their actual job. It's especially hard to expect them to know the rules better than you do because all of you people lurking online message boards spend as much time immersed in the hobby than they do.

kefkah
14-07-2012, 03:04
This kind of talk/thinking kinda bothers me. Remember that these guys are basically mall employess. I mean, maybe the store isn't necessarily located IN a mall, but they work in retail. At it's core, it's a crap job (just like any retail job) for which they probably get paid like $10/hr (or less). Sure, they get to be surrounded by the hobby that they (hopefully) love, but it's still a retail job.

That said, it's also hard to expect them to know the rules any more than you do. In addition to their normal duties, you expect them to have ALL the rules to multiple gaming systems (and army books) memorized? Like Lord Inquisitor said, they have better things to do relating to their actual job. It's especially hard to expect them to know the rules better than you do because all of you people lurking online message boards spend as much time immersed in the hobby than they do.

Well then why do a ruling and you cant look up the rulebook for?. Granted, they wont know all the rules, but lets take the example with seerstaph, wich my then army list was based on. The other guy said i couldent,called GW guy, and he said i couldent also. When i went into the rulebook i got scolded so i dropped it. And i decided not to play there anymore, i just wrote the reason, besides the crowd that is usally there, why i dont like to game at a GW store. I wasent unfriendly but decided to drop it even though i knew he was wrong and my army was based behind banishment.

Not even being allowed to find it in the rulebook cause you hold up the game is a pretty lame excuse, and it aint like i was a rule-lawyer.

The comment about they dont know **** about the rules is that they have a rule hotline you can call and supposedly are the highest authority when almost everyone i talked to knows that each single staffer gives a diffrent view of the rules you ask.Well i dont really care since i dont play at a GW store. I dont buy there anymore even,not that it matters.

Lord Dan
14-07-2012, 04:06
Actually exploiting loopholes are the things that bother me the most, primarily because they detract from the ability to lose yourself in a game. I couldn't care less if my opponent blew away all my characters in one turn with Dwellers, because it gives us all a laugh and a chance to shout "It's Chaos!", but I'm going to be really pissed if I see him deploy his chariot sideways to pick up a couple inches.

Moss
14-07-2012, 04:11
Haha, does everyone actually shout, "It's chaos?" Because I think I'd really like to play with you and your friends.

Lord Dan
14-07-2012, 06:10
You know it's funny you mentioned it, because we really do. We delight in the silliness of Warhammer, from statues that shoot laser beams from their eyes frying a unit of cold one knights (well, 7 of 10 models) to a mage attempting to cast a buff spell on a unit he was with in a building only to miscast and roll double ones, detonating himself and killing everyone inside the building (we laughed for some time at the thought of the tower spontaneously exploding and everyone nearby standing and staring with quizzical looks). We love these moments because they're memorable; far more so than any average win or loss.

In fact the most memorable game I've ever played was with my Dark Elves against a friend's Warriors of Chaos. It became clear early on that I was going to win, and he ended up making some crazy last-ditch charges in an attempt to win. Realizing that I wasn't enjoying myself either, I starting making silly charges myself, justifying it by making it part of the story:

"My BSB will declare a charge against your spawn."
"Just the BSB? Not the unit of black guard he's with?"
"Of course not. That spawn reminded him of his childhood."
"His childhood?"
"You see he was picked on as a child. He was called names growing up and never had any friends."
"I see."
"Indeed. You must understand that this spawn reminds him of everything wrong in the world. This is a daemon he must face on his own."
"Then let him face it."
"CHARGE!!!"

Anyway, we make a good time of it, because what's the point otherwise? Were I trying to make a competition of something I would choose an activity that was far more reputable which involved significantly fewer references to "wood elves" and "winds of magic".

Eppe
14-07-2012, 07:19
My biggest bitch is you don't touch someone elses models or bump the table when they are playing. Ask to touch, hell I even ask if they mind if I watch. I usually lead off with a compliment about their army and then ask them about it. People love talking about themselves. Usually after 10 minutes they are explaining to me why they are doing what, what army they want to build next, etc. I love my FLGS but the store manager is a huge Fantasy buff and from Hawaii so he runs his store on an islander motto.

Jind_Singh
14-07-2012, 08:18
This kind of talk/thinking kinda bothers me. Remember that these guys are basically mall employess. I mean, maybe the store isn't necessarily located IN a mall, but they work in retail. At it's core, it's a crap job (just like any retail job) for which they probably get paid like $10/hr (or less). Sure, they get to be surrounded by the hobby that they (hopefully) love, but it's still a retail job.

That said, it's also hard to expect them to know the rules any more than you do. In addition to their normal duties, you expect them to have ALL the rules to multiple gaming systems (and army books) memorized? Like Lord Inquisitor said, they have better things to do relating to their actual job. It's especially hard to expect them to know the rules better than you do because all of you people lurking online message boards spend as much time immersed in the hobby than they do.

I happen to strongly disagree - I was an ex-employee and while we don't get paid the going rate as say a top Wall Street exec. the pay doesn't take away from the fact that from the stores we had in the Lower Mainland (Richmond, Surrey, Burnaby, North Vancouver) which had a total of say around 11-12 staff, pretty much ALL of us loved work for GW - we got minimum wage for sure (well a few $ better per hour), and while it's a retail job so are MOST common jobs out there!

We all had our days when we didn't like it - but bet you a $1000 that there are days when Hugh Heffner wakes up thinking..."Again... :( "

You've obviously never worked for a GW store, but it was fun.

Gaming is all about community - if your staffers are open minded, fun, energetic, fair minded - you're in for a crazy ride. If your stuck with dope - your stuck with a dope!

As it happens our local store has 4 great staffers, each pretty much into their own thing, but you'll never see the store empty. Just today there must have been over 20 players having a game of APOC that the staffers organized for the heck of it. Their local 1 day tournaments (which are excuses to roll dice and have fun kind of events vs serious gameplay) typically fill out within days.

Newbies walk into the store clutching their cases of models, dice, and books and a staffer will find them a game - or if no one is in they get out their own armies and play a game with them.

We get all sorts in there - and with such a large crowd you'll find utter twerps you wouldn't waste time with, the normal joes, the collecters, the painters, the hard core gamers, the *********, the stars - the caliber of game you'll get is a lucky dip if you don't know the person but for the most part it's a pleasant store.

The staffers do, and will, step into heated rules disputes and quite often just 4+ the game to keep it going - BUT if they are not sure of a rule I've seen all 4 of them walk away, dive into a rule book, check the FAQ on the wesbite, and come back with a proper ruling. If they don't know they 4+ it.

The staffers actual job is to keep the folks immersed in the hobby - as those folks then spend money. The High Gate store in Burnaby for e.g. has solid numbers when it comes to hobby supplies as there are folk in there building and painting at all times - The immersion comes from gaming, hobby focused campaigns, and plugging the new shiny toys & books when they come out.

Manners in Warhammer are dictated by you - if a random person comes to our table during a game and tries to touch models I'll tell them to leave off - don't touch a model unless you ask. Then when they ask I'll say sure - just be careful! Side table generals are told to mind their own business, and keep away from people you don't like.

For those of you who are afflicted with a crap GW store move to BC, Canada, and go visit the High Gate store - and you'll see how a GW store SHOULD be.

Canada - doing it right!!!

HurrDurr
14-07-2012, 09:38
After money I've spent on tools, so I can use the paint I've spent money on, to paint the insanely priced plastic I've bought I see absolutely no reason not to be protective of my models. This isn't factoring in that I spend around 3 hours in the clipping/shaving stage with one box of glade guard, some of them look machine cut off the mold. I can be impatient about my stuff, if I bring a tape measure it isn't so the other guy can go "oh good I'll use the tape measure you went out of your way to get when I won't spend the 3 bucks to bring my own". As far as touching goes I watch my stuff like a hawk, you'ed be blocked before you got to it assuming I was anywhere near. Bottom line is it's my stuff that I've invested a lot of everything in, and they are fragile. Asking goes a long way because it instantly separates you from the group everyone here fears. It isn't past me to get confrontational and physical to protect my property GOD BLESS AMERICA. For real even packs of wolves don't f@&* with each others bones, why can't it be expected and required of human beings?

yabbadabba
14-07-2012, 10:23
I think this thread highlights several very important aspects of the ineraction between community, hobby and GW:

1) Running a GW store is far more complex than many believe, and the negative impact that an established group of "regulars" can have on that store environment
2) Why wargames are not designed to be played instore
3) How differently we all see how the game should be played, in particular in relation to the social side of gaming
4) How differently we interpret what we observe happening around us in a gaming environment, and why that underlines that the best place to play isn't in a store, and that the best games to play are not pick up games or store organised games.

Boreas_NL
14-07-2012, 15:08
...however they are the highest authority and you have to bow to their judgement no matter how stupid it may be...
:D You might want to rectify that, otherwise people will start to lose the will to live...

Andy p
14-07-2012, 17:25
Im not sure this can come under the heading of manners, so much as "sneaky **** I dont like to see", but the way people roll their dice sometimes annoys me.

Ive played one opponent who would cup his hands together like he was doing the book motion from charades, then hover them almost touching the tabletop, at which point he would then open his hands...almost literally placing the dice on the rolls he wanted, but not quite close enough for them to be completely placed so one or two would roll. The best, (or possibly worst) and certainly most hilarious example of this was when he performed his...'roll' and two of the dice ended up stacked up on top of each other.

Ximinipot
16-07-2012, 02:07
Im not sure this can come under the heading of manners, so much as "sneaky **** I dont like to see", but the way people roll their dice sometimes annoys me.

Ive played one opponent who would cup his hands together like he was doing the book motion from charades, then hover them almost touching the tabletop, at which point he would then open his hands...almost literally placing the dice on the rolls he wanted, but not quite close enough for them to be completely placed so one or two would roll. The best, (or possibly worst) and certainly most hilarious example of this was when he performed his...'roll' and two of the dice ended up stacked up on top of each other.

I hate this style of 'rolling' with a passion. To me that's not really rolling the dice, just dropping them on the table. I'm also protective of my models, especially since I play Lizardmen and probably 75% of my models are the old, original Lizardmen models. Those are old models that you can't get anymore, and aren't exactly easy to replace. Don't touch my dice and ask if you can pick up and look at my models. Other than that I don't have many issues. Go ahead and cheat, if that's what it takes for you to win and feel good about yourself. I play the game as a stress reliever and a fun pastime, when it stops being fun, I'll stop playing.

The bearded one
16-07-2012, 03:56
Canada - doing it right!!!

you just had to ruin a good post, didn't you? :(



Seeing as my local GW is getting a new manager soon, which might be one of the staff (several are going to give it a shot to apply), I'll give him a look at your post though, because getting customers into the store to have crazy fun generally produces sales.

Jind_Singh
16-07-2012, 07:19
you just had to ruin a good post, didn't you? :(

Sorry Bearded One - comes from pride that the Canadian GW stores have always been years ahead of their Southern Cousins in the States - and percentage wise have more stores operating in the black than the US does (or maybe will).

Lance Tankmen
16-07-2012, 07:51
i think i have great manners, i honestly dont like people using my dice because i firmly think that if they roll a 6 on my dice my chances of doing so when i roll them are lessened. so to that end i dont touch anything of my opponents i wouldnt want him touching without permission.

yabbadabba
16-07-2012, 08:16
Seeing as my local GW is getting a new manager soon, which might be one of the staff (several are going to give it a shot to apply), I'll give him a look at your post though, because getting customers into the store to have crazy fun generally produces sales. If staff can't come up with great ideas to have fun instore, then you are in trouble :eek:

En Sabbah Nur
16-07-2012, 08:48
It's sad that as much as I want to be social with my Warhammer addiction, it seems to me the average in-store players are not the people I want to be social with.

Since we're talking about manners, I would say that most of the time the under 18's in the stores tend to have horrific manners, and an even worse idea of personal space...

Funny how you gave words to my reflexions... I really dislike those halflings :shifty:
That's a reason why I don't play in stores or in tournament anymore. My main purpose about this game is to have fun, not necessarly winning. But with that kind of gamers, winning IS all about the fun, and they go for it with any mean needed... That is not my spirit, so I quit playing tournaments, or with under 16 players. May be I am narrow-minded, but I do not appreciate a game where all players are not enjoying the time they're spending.


We all had our days when we didn't like it - but bet you a $1000 that there are days when Hugh Heffner wakes up thinking..."Again... :( "

Wow, you really think that ? Well, if he wants, I can replace him those days, only to be nice :p

AmaroK
16-07-2012, 09:12
Yesterday I attended to an event in my local store (not an official GW store). It wasnīt a tourney in the proper sense, as it hasnīt any prizes nor judge nor hard rules, but more of a way of having some games with friends. It was a doubles games event (1500+1500 per side), and just 3 game tables (so 12 people).

Still, at game 3 I ended in the "top" table with an alliance of wood elfs and only skink, slann-less lizardmen with a lvl 2 mage as highest. We faced a warrior of chaos/daemons ally with 2 forty bloodletters hordes, one leaded by Skulltaker, another horde of tzeentch warriors backed up with a warshrine, a level 4 and a bsb, Throgg with 5 trolls, and 3 slaneesh fiends. Needless to say that in a friendly enviroment, they scored 20-0 in both of their previous matches.

We got dawn attack scenario, they deployed first, with all their hordes at the front and when they deployed their fiends to cover their back, I noticed they didnīt have square bases but round ones. As far as we had scouts and skirmishing units depending heavily on the arch of view, I asked the daemon player to put the feinds on square bases so we could see their lines of sight, and the guy started to ask "why I should? You can see its facing in this direction". I insisted and said its the way its supposed to be played, that in every tourney you are required to use the square bases, that its very important for the game... And the daemon player replyied if we would have to call a liner to play a game. At that point I lost my nerves and I replyied him in a rude way (not insulting him, but not in a friendly tone) and I was about to leave the game, which I didnīt because I was playing with the store owner :P After the initial bad start, we played the game and during the course of the game I explained him why we needed their figures on square bases (basically because we kept half of our forces out of their vision archs, he realized of his mistake and I apologized as well).

All of the above made me think about the manners in this kind of games, and how different we see them, and how they can bring the worst of us in certain moments (as it happened to me, and also to my rival). The fact that they brought such a hard list added to the bases issue made me develop a negativity that finally exploded in a bad manners way. Sure, I could be right, and I like to play the game under the rules, but at the end, its just this a game.

Oogie boogie boss
16-07-2012, 10:00
I'm generally very relaxed when playing a game, I do it for fun and to test my tactical skill, not to win. Therefore if I come up against a real rules lawyer, I generally let it slide over me and try and keep the game light hearted. There are some things, however, which I consider mandatory 'manners-wise' during a game.

Firstly, always ask permisiion before you touch someone's models, particularly mid-game. These days I just play with friends, as I only get a few games a year in due to work and travel. Even though my opponent will be someone i've known for years though, I still ask permission before I touch their models. If someone asks to pick up one of my models and accidentally breaks it, then i really don't mind, these things happen. If, however they do so without asking, particularly in a game, then that does annoy me as it's just plain bad manners.

Secondly, I have no problem with people watching my games, indeed I welcome it. What I do object to is them interjecting in the game play with advice, one way or the other. As far as i'm concerned, what happens in a game is between you and your opponent.
Of course, if we both get a rule wrong or misunderstand something then I welcome someone correcting the situation, but what I think is bad manners is for people to point out tactical mistakes, constantly criticise decisions and, worst of all from a spectator, taunt you when things go against you. If someone is about to make a mistake in the game tactically, and someone watching the game points it out, I feel that's bad manners, and feel so when i'm about to make a mistake as well.
As I said, winning really isn't a big factor of the game for me, but testing yourself against an opponent is, and it's annoying when people watching the game think that they have to weigh in with their opinion.

Thirdly, and most obviously, it's bad manners when you throw a tantrum if you lose or taunt your opponent if you win. That mentality, which I see a lot in GW stores these days unfortunately, is just rude. No matter what happens over the course of the game, it's abou having fun and showing respect for the person you're playing against. Sure, you may have gained a resounding victory, or you may have been beaten into the ground from turn one, either way you should end the game with a handshake, a grin and a friendly thanks. Throwing your dice on the floor and storming off, or pointing at your opponent and laughing is rude in every way possible. When that happens to me, I won't play that person again.

To be honest, these are some of the reasons I don't play in GW's anymore. You see these things happening quite a lot these days, especially but by no means exclusively amongst the younger players, and I find it drains the fun for me, especially as I rarely have the time to get a game in. I also agree that sometimes, but not always, going into a GW as a non-regular can mean being greeted with hostility by those who, shall we say, lack social skills. Hobby gaming can be seen as a bit nerdy, and it is, so I can understand why kids you have developed a 'refuge' mentality can be made nervous by new interaction. It is, however, up to the staff in these instances to take up the hospitality slack, which in general they do very well.
There have been a very few instances where i've popped in to a GW i'm passing to pick something up and been greeted with hostility by both the regulars AND staff members, but this is very rare in my experience.

All in all, I think if you're relaxed, friendly and observe basic courtesies, then you won't have a problem finding opponents. It's all common sense really; hobby gaming is not an alternate reality from the rest of society where the rules of etiquette are suspended. Just be a nice guy.

Oogie boogie boss
16-07-2012, 10:05
Also, and this may just be me, but i really don't get why people have issues about their dice being touched. They're just dice. Is it really that big a deal and worth complaining about if someone uses the dice you just rolled to wound to make armour saves? Granted some people have spent money on specially coloured dice and want to keep them, but it's not as if your opponent is going to steal them, is it? And it's easy enough to keep track of where they are. I mean, unless you're using loaded dice (in which case, shame on you) then does it really matter that much?

Metacarpi
16-07-2012, 10:47
The only thing I get a little annoyed with is when people just snatch up and use my templates. When we're playing at a mates house, it's not a problem, but I've had numerous templates go walkies in the gaming hall at Warhammer World, so I guess I'm just a little over-protective of them now.

I also had the small rule book from IoB go missing whilst there as well. Bloody parents leaving their kids there unattended. :mad:

Urgat
16-07-2012, 11:10
Also, and this may just be me, but i really don't get why people have issues about their dice being touched. They're just dice. Is it really that big a deal and worth complaining about if someone uses the dice you just rolled to wound to make armour saves? Granted some people have spent money on specially coloured dice and want to keep them, but it's not as if your opponent is going to steal them, is it? And it's easy enough to keep track of where they are. I mean, unless you're using loaded dice (in which case, shame on you) then does it really matter that much?

It's superstition, one of these things that can't be helped. You just KNOW if someone touches your dice, he's going to steal the good mojo away from them. It's irrational of course, and I particularly find it fun when the ones that are like that are otherwise total believers in mathammer and statistics and what not, but it's something that just can't be helped, and, really, it's not such a big deal avoiding to touch his dice. That being said, anybody must be prepared for me to touch their dice if they throw them brutally and randomly on the table and they keep crashing crashing in my minis. That I bloody hate, people rolling their dice into my minis. I get that the example above with the guy dropping his dice so neatly they barely run is annoying, but the other extreme is even worse.

Nymie_the_Pooh
16-07-2012, 12:16
I try to respect personal space as much as possible. I don't touch anybody's models or dice without asking. As those things are part of their property I automatically think of them as being an extension of that personal space. I take no issue with somebody picking up my successful rolls to wound if they want to use them to roll their armour saves as it can be a smidge faster than counting out their dice. The appropriate number of dice is sitting right there in front of them. I try to be courteous in whatever way I can as long as it requires no additional effort on my part because I am incredibly lazy. This includes things like picking up my failed dice rolls then scooping up the successes so my opponent has time to check them over and if I do make a mistake by picking up too many my mistake hurts me and not the person I am playing with. If you are playing with me then I can't remember an occasion when I minded that person picking up and looking at one of my models or shuffling it around a bit as long as it went back after they were done. Asking first is always nice and makes me less likely to be nervous, and friends can get away with it without asking and not making me sweat. This holds especially true if I am playing with somebody else that has a painted army as I know they can respect the models because they know what it takes to get a painted army to the table. Not that other people don't have respect, but there is a sort of mutual understanding of what was required there.

What usually gets me is people either being aggressive in a way that has nothing whatsoever to do with the game, try to affect the game by means outside of the game (such as deliberately slow playing when they know there is a time limit), or trying to find loopholes in rules that clearly aren't meant to be played a certain way. In 5th edition 40K for instance units obscured by another unit received a cover save. Early on some played this to where two units could be placed in such a way so that as they moved across the table they both provided cover saves to the other unit. This was later FAQed to where it took three units instead of two to accomplish the same effect, but it was pretty clear even early on that the intent was never to have two units providing cover for each other. It was just worded a bit funny so it could possibly be interpreted more than one way so some people went with the least likely interpretation because it supported what they were trying to do. That's just one example of a myriad of little things that come up in a variety of games, but it stuck in my craw a bit so I remember it being used even now.

Lord Dan
16-07-2012, 16:52
The only thing I get a little annoyed with is when people just snatch up and use my templates. When we're playing at a mates house, it's not a problem, but I've had numerous templates go walkies in the gaming hall at Warhammer World, so I guess I'm just a little over-protective of them now.

I also had the small rule book from IoB go missing whilst there as well. Bloody parents leaving their kids there unattended. :mad:

I've only had that happen once, and it was also some kid grabbing it to use in a 40K game he was playing. All it took was a:

"Oi!"
"Huh?"
"That's mine, little dude."
"Oh."
"..."
"Can I borrow it?"
"Of course."

Problem solved.

brightblade
16-07-2012, 17:02
Manners? Never grab someone's dice without asking, or touch their models without asking.

I've had people knock my models to the floor, break them, the just move off without saying anything. Ugh!

I think this so important. Especially my dice! It has taken years to get some luck into my dice and you touching them will make it fall out! ;)

Playing the game, the most important thing to remember is that it is meant to be fun. Abide by the rules but don't be an ass about it.

Juicy21
16-07-2012, 18:36
heck at our local gamestore newcomers are really welcome they even get a free drink on the clubs money:) but we dont really have that mutch powergamers in our club tho.. and people only play powerlists when they practise for an tourney game. and let you know in advance so you can adjust your list.. we do got a lot of themed armees tho.

Metacarpi
16-07-2012, 22:31
I've only had that happen once, and it was also some kid grabbing it to use in a 40K game he was playing. All it took was a:

"Oi!"
"Huh?"
"That's mine, little dude."
"Oh."
"..."
"Can I borrow it?"
"Of course."

Problem solved.

Absolutely agree - the problem is that I never. Priced the items were missing until the end of the game, I've no idea when they vanished, but it was probably on a trip to the bar. We left the table unattended whilst we went to get beer, assuming fellow gamers wouldn't be crooks. We've since stopped leaving the tables unattended for even a moment, and nothing like that has happened since

The bearded one
16-07-2012, 23:14
If staff can't come up with great ideas to have fun instore, then you are in trouble :eek:

No, they're good guys, I think they might just need the push to go a bit more all-out crazy with it.

Tarian
17-07-2012, 03:43
It's superstition, one of these things that can't be helped. You just KNOW if someone touches your dice, he's going to steal the good mojo away from them. It's irrational of course, and I particularly find it fun when the ones that are like that are otherwise total believers in mathammer and statistics and what not, but it's something that just can't be helped, and, really, it's not such a big deal avoiding to touch his dice. That being said, anybody must be prepared for me to touch their dice if they throw them brutally and randomly on the table and they keep crashing crashing in my minis. That I bloody hate, people rolling their dice into my minis. I get that the example above with the guy dropping his dice so neatly they barely run is annoying, but the other extreme is even worse.

I am one of those people, who is a firm believer in Mathammer/Statistics, but... dice! And I agree, it's totally irrational, but it is superstition.

yabbadabba
17-07-2012, 09:40
No, they're good guys, I think they might just need the push to go a bit more all-out crazy with it. Sounds hopeful mate. It was always something akin to setting wild animals free from captivity, telling a staff member they were allowed to have fun.

Cautious at first but then unbounded joy kicks in!

the_slosh
17-07-2012, 16:06
No, they're good guys, I think they might just need the push to go a bit more all-out crazy with it.

This can be very intimidating as well to any new would be hobbyist. My partner for example (who would only walk in the store because of me) does not enjoy having a overly excited staffer bombarding her with 'wackiness'

The bearded one
17-07-2012, 17:46
This can be very intimidating as well to any new would be hobbyist. My partner for example (who would only walk in the store because of me) does not enjoy having a overly excited staffer bombarding her with 'wackiness'

There's no need to jump from behind pillars and throw streamers in somebody's face - kind of craziness, but more excessively cool hobby/gaming fun, such as organising large apocalypse games 'just for the heck of it'.

Oogie boogie boss
17-07-2012, 17:55
Generally i think most guys who work in GW are great, but i've found that they can sometimes be overeager to say the least. I've been to quite a few GWs where the staff members have really pushed the hard sell technique. I went to one when I was at uni where i'd just popped in to see if the new Horus Heresy was out, and to browse, and the guy literally followed me around the shop whilst quizzing me on which system I played, which army I collected, whether I was interested in this and that, etc etc.
In the end I didn't even get near the book section because he get trying to usher me towards the new Skaven stuff (which was the army I then collected). Eventually I had to pretend to get an emergency text just to leave without being rude.
This is one aspect of the hobby I find to be poor manners. It's by no means always the case, and of course happens in all kinds of retail, but seems to be especially prevelent in GW. It's no coincidence that the local store I visit the most (i live in London, so there are a few) is the one where the manager who's usually there is a laid-back guy you is helpful but also lets you browse.

the_slosh
17-07-2012, 23:44
My experiences have been much like what Oogie boogie boss describes TBO. But I have found the staff to be much more pushy in the UK unlike the shops I've visited in France, Norway and Sweden

Also what you are suggesting is not what I would call wacky, I'd call that good business and a great way to attract new customers, besides who does not need more minis for Apoc!? :D

kefkah
18-07-2012, 01:16
My experiences have been much like what Oogie boogie boss describes TBO. But I have found the staff to be much more pushy in the UK unlike the shops I've visited in France, Norway and Sweden

Also what you are suggesting is not what I would call wacky, I'd call that good business and a great way to attract new customers, besides who does not need more minis for Apoc!? :D

I feel that to. In the shop in Gotheburg, sweden, there is one guy who always pushes it so hard i feel almost guilty to buying something, so that i never whent in there if i clearly dident know what to buy.

The worst was the same guy, when i whent in to buy Swordmasters or phoenix Guards. Like always, there is a shortage, they keep saying they dont get the right amount everytime they order, but wo if its not in its not it.

I ask for swordmasters, he brings out a IOB and pitches on how i can trade skaven with a friend and such and still get swordmaster and a heap of other models, and im like erm...no ( must think im one of the kids around the store) but the top prize was trying to sell me a caradryan finecast instead of PG, wich btw only costs like 100 kr ( 12-13 pounds) less then the box of then plastics. Bought some archers instead and i get the regular, you got Gw-glue, colour, pencil etc etc.

I understand its retail, but jeezh, its a guilt trip to buy something everytime i go in there.

But as i said, im really anti my local GW store, all the exp together made me so, its nice to see some people who finds their great.

But i find it telling that a thread about all kind of manners in warhammer tends to be mostly about the GW stores, must mean im not the only one( by far) to feel that way :=)

Urgat
18-07-2012, 01:32
oh, I have one like that; when I bouth that flame-thrower-shaped airbrush thing, I take one air canister along (obviously), and the red shirt tells me I should buy two because it empties fast. So since I bought it pretty much only to test it, I say no thanks. And there the guy insists, he does not go quite as far as telling me I'm wrong in not taking two, but almost. Now I'm a calm guy so I would have politely insisted that no thank you I onlyneedonethankyouverymuch (besides my g/f was with me and I didn't want t look like an ass), but then the resident black shirt came in and told the guy to give me my can and to, basically, leave me alone. Wow. I suppose the guy figured I was about to throw a tantrum or something (which I wasn't), but at the same time, it felt like he was just used to having to deal with his overzealous pawn. Incidentally, I haven't seen that guy at the store the few last times I went there, I suppose he's not there anymore.

Side note: been over a year since and I still haven't tried that airbrush, it's a good thing I didn't buy two cannisters :p

yabbadabba
18-07-2012, 09:18
There's no need to jump from behind pillars and throw streamers in somebody's face - kind of craziness, but more excessively cool hobby/gaming fun, such as organising large apocalypse games 'just for the heck of it'. Yeah I think we need to draw a line here. "Fun" in a GW store is not about running around shouting waargh!, dressing up as an orc to go to the pub etc. Its about understanding what makes the hobby fun, and then setting up situations that inspire and encourage.

A friend of mine was a manager at Plaza and took on the challenge of creating a Snotling army, then playing with it in an instore tournament. Not only did his sales go up, but all his events linked to this activity were booked out as customers wanted to be a part of the experience. Everyone knew it didn't stand a chance, but he did it anyway. Another mate set out to prove that painting a Iyanden army was not difficult (issues with the old GW yellow) and developed a painting technique where he got 2k painted in a week to tournament standard in store time. And there are countless examples like this.

You don't need wackiness, like dressing up your 5 year old cousin as a Warlord Titan (in tin foil) to play in a 40K game, to make it fun and inspiring.

Lord Solar Plexus
18-07-2012, 09:35
Manners? Never grab someone's dice without asking, or touch their models without asking.

Don't forget body parts!


Im not sure this can come under the heading of manners

I'm not the expert on manners but as a dad, I find your signature to be highly offensive and not funny at all.

Doommasters
18-07-2012, 09:44
Yeah I think we need to draw a line here. "Fun" in a GW store is not about running around shouting waargh!, dressing up as an orc to go to the pub etc. Its about understanding what makes the hobby fun, and then setting up situations that inspire and encourage.

A friend of mine was a manager at Plaza and took on the challenge of creating a Snotling army, then playing with it in an instore tournament. Not only did his sales go up, but all his events linked to this activity were booked out as customers wanted to be a part of the experience. Everyone knew it didn't stand a chance, but he did it anyway. Another mate set out to prove that painting a Iyanden army was not difficult (issues with the old GW yellow) and developed a painting technique where he got 2k painted in a week to tournament standard in store time. And there are countless examples like this.

You don't need wackiness, like dressing up your 5 year old cousin as a Warlord Titan (in tin foil) to play in a 40K game, to make it fun and inspiring.


^This

Enjoying the hobby that everyone is clearly there to enjoy. Having fun and a laugh is important and is what keeps me going back, once you get ultra competitive and serious it takes away the hobby aspect for me and it becomes more like a job or competitive sport.

At the same time over the top stupidness degrades the experience.....balance people balance

Doommasters
18-07-2012, 09:44
Double Post - Internet crapped out on me

Snake1311
18-07-2012, 09:46
I'm not the expert on manners but as a dad, I find your signature to be highly offensive and not funny at all.

Maybe you shouldn't leave your little children unattended then :P

Nymie_the_Pooh
18-07-2012, 10:06
Don't forget body parts!
This is a bit of a pet peeve, but not directly related to wargaming so I didn't bring it up before. People, and gamers in particular when in a casual environment, can lean towards trying to be almost infuriatingly helpful. I know, it sounds like one of those first world problems. I can't tell you how many times a stranger or somebody I've only met on a couple of occasions has come up behind me to grab my handles and start pushing my chair around without saying a word because they know I am about to move myself and want to make things easier on me. It doesn't get me nearly as worked up as it did the first couple of years, but it's akin to putting blinders on somebody and grabbing their shoulders from behind to guide the person about without ever asking if it was okay to do so first. It's worse now in some ways because I can't see directly behind me, but I have become accustomed to it where the first time it happened I had to resist the urge to punch the guy and he was just trying to help.

I think personal space in general should be respected whenever possible, and I tend to include the property of a person to be an extension of their personal space which therefore extends to their dice, minis, and books.

The bearded one
18-07-2012, 13:53
Yeah I think we need to draw a line here. "Fun" in a GW store is not about running around shouting waargh!, dressing up as an orc to go to the pub etc.

To bring forth a related anecdote on this point though, one of the staffmembers dressed up as a catachan fighter for a release (5th 40k I think, could be 4th). Yes, we had a crazy rambo in the store :p And also a mummy for the TK release.

The Ked
19-07-2012, 11:31
This might just be me but something that always annoyed me was staff members getting everyone to scream 'Waaaagh'. I'm not exactly a shy person but I hate shouting in public, partly because I find it rude but also embarassing. I understand why they do it though so its more a pet peeve than anything.

Perfect example of bad manners though is how so many people find it hard to say "excuse me" and just barge past you. I understand it can sometimes be hard to get around the shop if its busy but if I'm in the way and you actually asked I'd apologise and move. Shoving me out the way is not only rude but also risks me dropping what I'm holding/knocking stock off shelves/nudging someone painting.

dral
19-07-2012, 15:53
I'm not the expert on manners but as a dad, I find your signature to be highly offensive and not funny at all.

Strange, becoming a dad hasn't made any difference to my ability to accept a joke as just that.

belgarath97
21-07-2012, 01:06
Generally i think most guys who work in GW are great, but i've found that they can sometimes be overeager to say the least. I've been to quite a few GWs where the staff members have really pushed the hard sell technique. I went to one when I was at uni where i'd just popped in to see if the new Horus Heresy was out, and to browse, and the guy literally followed me around the shop whilst quizzing me on which system I played, which army I collected, whether I was interested in this and that, etc etc.
In the end I didn't even get near the book section because he get trying to usher me towards the new Skaven stuff (which was the army I then collected). Eventually I had to pretend to get an emergency text just to leave without being rude.
This is one aspect of the hobby I find to be poor manners. It's by no means always the case, and of course happens in all kinds of retail, but seems to be especially prevelent in GW. It's no coincidence that the local store I visit the most (i live in London, so there are a few) is the one where the manager who's usually there is a laid-back guy you is helpful but also lets you browse.


Honestly sounds like someone who is struggling with some of the training GW gives. We were told to make sure we had a conversation with every customer about their hobby. And, obviously, try to use that to help them, including making suggestions for purchases. There is a subtle line between pushy and helpful, and sometimes it's hard to see.

Shame it kept you from getting your purchase.

Baaltor
22-07-2012, 05:23
I happen to strongly disagree - I was an ex-employee and while we don't get paid the going rate as say a top Wall Street exec. the pay doesn't take away from the fact that from the stores we had in the Lower Mainland (Richmond, Surrey, Burnaby, North Vancouver) which had a total of say around 11-12 staff, pretty much ALL of us loved work for GW - we got minimum wage for sure (well a few $ better per hour), and while it's a retail job so are MOST common jobs out there!

We all had our days when we didn't like it - but bet you a $1000 that there are days when Hugh Heffner wakes up thinking..."Again... :( "

You've obviously never worked for a GW store, but it was fun.

Gaming is all about community - if your staffers are open minded, fun, energetic, fair minded - you're in for a crazy ride. If your stuck with dope - your stuck with a dope!

As it happens our local store has 4 great staffers, each pretty much into their own thing, but you'll never see the store empty. Just today there must have been over 20 players having a game of APOC that the staffers organized for the heck of it. Their local 1 day tournaments (which are excuses to roll dice and have fun kind of events vs serious gameplay) typically fill out within days.

Newbies walk into the store clutching their cases of models, dice, and books and a staffer will find them a game - or if no one is in they get out their own armies and play a game with them.

We get all sorts in there - and with such a large crowd you'll find utter twerps you wouldn't waste time with, the normal joes, the collecters, the painters, the hard core gamers, the *********, the stars - the caliber of game you'll get is a lucky dip if you don't know the person but for the most part it's a pleasant store.

The staffers do, and will, step into heated rules disputes and quite often just 4+ the game to keep it going - BUT if they are not sure of a rule I've seen all 4 of them walk away, dive into a rule book, check the FAQ on the wesbite, and come back with a proper ruling. If they don't know they 4+ it.

The staffers actual job is to keep the folks immersed in the hobby - as those folks then spend money. The High Gate store in Burnaby for e.g. has solid numbers when it comes to hobby supplies as there are folk in there building and painting at all times - The immersion comes from gaming, hobby focused campaigns, and plugging the new shiny toys & books when they come out.

Manners in Warhammer are dictated by you - if a random person comes to our table during a game and tries to touch models I'll tell them to leave off - don't touch a model unless you ask. Then when they ask I'll say sure - just be careful! Side table generals are told to mind their own business, and keep away from people you don't like.

For those of you who are afflicted with a crap GW store move to BC, Canada, and go visit the High Gate store - and you'll see how a GW store SHOULD be.

Canada - doing it right!!!

Fellow British Columbian, I go to that store irregularly (I live 20 minutes away). The staff there are all bro-tier. Too bad we don't have any other stores province wide save on the island. XD

bigbear bailey
22-07-2012, 07:30
the worst....

"Who's winning?" This comment doesn't do good for anyone. If you are winning, you wont answer as to not **** the other chap off. If you're losing, you have to say me, which makes you even more depressed that you have to say you are losing. Just look at the table people, that simple.

Oh and picking up things with out looking is a mega no no... Do you do that to other random strangers things? no ha ha.

Senor
22-07-2012, 16:21
I once caught a player, when he picked up the dice out, that he picked also 1 or 2 dice, that did not make the number thrown... He needed 4s and picked up with quick hands...2 more dice. The way he handles is, is throwing dice and immediately pick out the dice that were good...according to him. As he throws the dice on his end of the board, it is not too simple to see all, aswell.

He said, that I was mistaken and that it really wasn't the case. So I said...then please take out the BAD dice then. He knew he was caught in the act, so he agreed to it. After that his throws were a big slower, when picking out the dice...;-)

Also there are guys, holding 1 dice between the pink and the handpalm with the desired number up (say a 6). Then he throws, lets say, with 3 dice. And with the way he throws, the 6 is just gliding the table, not ever rolling and stays a 6. the other 2 dice are rolling normally. I once had that person and friendly asked him, to change his way of throwing dice, which he agreed upon with a big smile and turning red the same time...

I tell you... the world isn't always perfect...:-((

Lance Tankmen
22-07-2012, 19:46
when i first started playing, it was wth a co-worker and his friend. the co-worker was always busy so it was normally his friend, a friend of mine and I playing. the co-workers friend was a huge dice cheater, to make matters worse he was DE and we were empire and brets with only core save for 10 greatswords. i remember he rolled behind terrian on his side "so the dice dont go everywhere" but we couldnt see his dice as well. he always did well if not perfect hitting and wounding and im ashamed to admit i lied once back to kill his hydra. he rolled insane courage 3 times in a row... me n my friend were losing or something we just didnt care. another time all 24 str 8 attacks from his cosairs hit and wounded, i was busy discussing the game with a friend(it was a 5 way battle) but one friend had said he rolled once then told me the wounds, and for a magic phase once he rolled both his spells then told my friend his total and which he wanted to stop. it was a 22 and a 20 for both spells but again we were talking and didnt see him roll either. We did notice when he played 40k he rolled in the open a lot more...

Graxy
22-07-2012, 23:32
As already said, the basic manners of "don't touch models or dice without asking" is probably the main thing here. Models moreso than dice, but I'd prefer for dice to not go missing when I've paid money for them (admitedelly only Ģ4, but still, in O&G, every dice I acn get my hands on just speeds up the game. For models, I'm not too bad about it if I know the person well, although most of the people (if not all of them) that I know well can either look at something from a distance or have the ommon courtesy to ask first. People I don't know too well I'm a bit more edgy about. If they don't ask to see something then and pick it up, unless they're brand new to the hobby (and I mean BRAND NEW), it'll be some time before they can touch one of my models again. A bit harsh, but it works. In return, I ask if I can touch something, regardless of how well I know the person. If something ever comes off, unless they say "It's fine, that parts pinned/magnetised/been breaking for no reason/ect.", I will repair it. For example, a while ago, walking past my friend playing a game with his TK, I knocked a screaming skull off of the table. 2 minutes later, that screaming skull was back on the table and hasn't broken since. If someone breaks something of mine, as long as they asked to see it first or it was an obvious accident, I'm fine with repairing it. Normally, we'll just have a joke about it (GW glue being the punchline).

Staffwise, at least this far into the games release, they aren't called too often into games that I play at least. Other people's games are usually monitered by people in store waiting for games or otherwise in store, letting the staff do their retail duties.

As far as text abuse goes, really gw has gven up on letting these abuses go, so why should we bother? Ogre's ironfist slaughtermmaster FAQ anyone?


That said, I’d personallyrecommend that you avoid giving your Butchers andSlaughtermasters magic armour – doing otherwise goes against thespirit, if not the letter, of the rule.

So they're letting this quite blatant abuse of wording go, but shaking their finger at you if you do it. Dear God no, I've lost the respet of GW HQ!!!!

Urgat
22-07-2012, 23:44
That FAQ entry was the result of a disagreement. IIRC, it was Jervis who wanted to FAQ against it, but he was outruled, but since it was Jervis, they at least added that sentence.

Evil Hypnotist
24-07-2012, 09:58
I always feel awkward when I read threads like this, I am obviously very lucky that my gaming group are well mannered, easy going players. The only guy who had a poor reputation for bullying people over the rules and trying to get an advantage was a 40k player and now 6th has arrived he knows he only knows as much as everyone else.

Normally people will come and look at the models before I have deployed and ask if they can pick them up and have a look, once they are on the board no-one even asks if they can touch them although I probably wouldn't mind as long as they went back in the same place. The dice again I have no problem with my opponent using as long as they aren't mixed up with theirs, but then again I'm not superstitious at all!

I would assume most people don't want to lose, or at least the people who don't mind are few and far between. I'm not a competitive player but if I am taking a beating then I go a bit quieter and I see that from other people too, it's hard to see your plans/hopes being trashed and still laugh and joke about, although I try my best. At the end of the game I will give credit to my opponent if they won and try and analyse where it went wrong, with their help. When it comes to rule questions I am happy for someone to question me, I will go into the rulebook to get evidence for my claim, sometimes I'm right, other times I'm wrong but that's how I learn.

One recent example was with my regular opponent who had taken O&G, I was easily winning the game but I wanted clarification with how he was placing his fanatics. He said he could place them within 8" of my unit and then aim them in. It seemed ridiculous to me that the fanatic could just appear out of nowhere so I asked to read the army book's entry. This isn't normally something I would do, I tend to not query other people's armies rules when I don't know them but I couldn't see the logic in this rule. He wasn't happy, considering how his game had gone and being in a position to get some revenge but I insisted. We realised he had confused what the 'concealing' unit was and where the fanatic could appear and we then proceeded with the game. I had to point out I wasn't being petty, I just wanted to understand the logic behind the rules. His bad mood disappeared immediately when he realised he had been using them incorrectly and was pleased we had both learned something. This is swings and roundabouts as he is normally the one who pulls me up on stuff I can't do and I'm grateful to him for doing that.

Some support for those who don't like people touching their models too. I played a game a couple of weeks ago with a guy I hadn't met before, we got on ok and had a good game which he won. Towards the latter part of the game my Chaos Knights ended up in his deployment zone and he had knocked over the standard bearer with his sleeve as he was reaching over the table. He righted it but then did it another two times, it wasn't on purpose but he obviously wasn't learning. At the end of the game he handed it over and pointed out the horn on the skull had broken, I was irked by this because it could have happened after the first time he knocked it over and I'm proud of the paint job I had done on them. I wasn't going to lose my temper because he was a new member to the group but I wasn't happy, but as he handed me the piece he apologised and offered to give me some money to cover the repair. He was obviously upset at what he had done so I told him not to worry and that they are models to use so I have to expect some wear and tear. In fact the standard bearer looks better with the damage now I think!

Finally, my favourite piece of manners came from the O&G opponent when we played for the first time on my new gaming board I had painted up. He went to roll the dice to determine who would get which side of the board and hesitsted, asking if I would prefer him to roll in a box lid or something so the table wouldn't get scratched. My response was "Hell no! It was made for playing on, roll away!", although it would have been amusing if I had made him roll them in a box and I didn't :D

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-07-2012, 16:35
That FAQ entry was the result of a disagreement. IIRC, it was Jervis who wanted to FAQ against it, but he was outruled, but since it was Jervis, they at least added that sentence.

But that just makes it worse. A decision either way would be fine, but doing what they did in that FAQ makes everything worse. It answers the question in a way you can be certain people will continue to argue about and that will cause bad feelings. If Jervis wanted it a different way but got overruled he should be old enough to accept that, not then include a sentence designed to make people feel bad about playing the way you just told them they could!

theunwantedbeing
24-07-2012, 17:39
I've never had an issue with people touching my things.
Obviously I am not going to allow it if I've seen them treating other things badly or if they have mucky/greasy fingers from food or whatever.
I don't even mind people moving models off the table to look at without asking.

yabbadabba
24-07-2012, 19:20
But that just makes it worse. A decision either way would be fine, but doing what they did in that FAQ makes everything worse. It answers the question in a way you can be certain people will continue to argue about and that will cause bad feelings. If Jervis wanted it a different way but got overruled he should be old enough to accept that, not then include a sentence designed to make people feel bad about playing the way you just told them they could! Cuts both ways. We should be old enough to see RAW and RAI interpretations and be able to make a decision on which we want to use.

Valden
09-08-2012, 22:31
Today I played someone who made the whole game a highly unpleasant experience for me. I was using my Woc, he his Lizardmen. It was a 2k point game and I rolled the first turn (this instantly put him in a mood, because he clings to the belief that the first turn is the game winning turn). Basically, I managed to cast Infernal Gateway on his temple guard/Slann block and I rolled 11 for the strength value, meaning the entire unit and Slann was removed from play. his first reaction was to flat out deny that his unit was lost, in the end I had to give him my army book and let him pour over the lore of tzeench for five minutes. After that, he turned on his PC (we were playing at his house) and went to the FAQ page, assuring me that this spell would have been nerfed. I just sat back in silence as he desperately searching for a non-existent savior.

He then ranted for a while about how there is no point playing Woc because it is impossible to beat them, and loads of other crap. I stayed calm and gave him a reasonable argument in response to each accusation he made, pointing out that his list wasn't suitable, but also that I had been extremely lucky to get that 11+ dice roll, and also to get IF on such an awesome spell on my first turn (I put four dice on it).

This little episode cast a nasty shadow over the whole game. From then on, EVERY time I tried to use an ability, magic item or spell and even roll on the eye of the Gods, he had the Woc FAQ page up, pouring over it trying to fault everything I did. It made me feel very uncomfortable, as though I was being judged for playing the army I had spent hours painting. On top of this, he laughed gleefully every time I rolled badly, which can be infuriating. I responded each time by saying "it isnt funny, its just bad luck".

I got angry at the end of the game, not because of his behaviour, but because I discovered that he had the lore of death on his dead Slann with the purple sun. After all his whining about how overpowered Infernal gateway was (I disagreed with him, saying the likelihood is it will kill maybe 5-6 models) on a 15+ casting value, he was quite prepared to use an even more powerful spell against me on the same casting value. He just ignored every point I made and said how overpowered my army was. In short, he was a whining hipocrit and I will not be playing him outside the club again.

Lord Dan
09-08-2012, 22:58
What a missed opportunity in failing to name this thread "Warmanners".

Jind_Singh
09-08-2012, 23:14
Fellow British Columbian, I go to that store irregularly (I live 20 minutes away). The staff there are all bro-tier. Too bad we don't have any other stores province wide save on the island. XD

Wonder if we've meet there Baaltor? Let me know if you're down for a game one of these days - warhammer, 40k, war of the rings, lord of the rings, Warmaster, space hulk, or dread fleet - and we'll make a play date of it!

PM me - or join us on Facebook at

Vancouver Battle Brothers

It's a closed group that's pretty much the High Gate crowd - we go on there to organize games, talk about anything hobby related

Ask to be added and I'll add you

yabbadabba
10-08-2012, 09:44
What a missed opportunity in failing to name this thread "Warmanners". In the Grim Reality of the Dark Future there is only holding doors open for ladies and helping old people cross the road.

Spiney Norman
10-08-2012, 20:17
Wow, so much negativity here, this is not my experience at all, let me tell you a story.

I moved to the town I live in about 4 years ago after finishing uni, the move was 250 miles from my home town and the nearest GW store was 45 min away by car. For 3 yrs my hobby went on the back burner, it was mainly limited to the occasional game with my bro when I went home at holidays and a couple of uni mates who live even further away. Then about a year ago the bookshop in town became an independent stockist.

Awesomeness, suddenly I could buy my models and paints without making the trip to Sheffield, but one day, not long after they started selling the stuff I walked in and saw a guy about my age looking at a box of high elves, we swap emails and meet for a few games on sat afternoons. I got to know the bookshop staff and start running monthly beginner games/ painting lessons at the shop. We talk to the staff about how many adults buy the stuff, put up some posters and create a Facebook group, then in may we took the plunge, hired out the function room of a nearby pub and advertised. 25 people turned up on the first night, most of whom I'd never met before and our warhammer club was born.

Obviously I'm one of the founders so I'm biased, but we're not cliquey and we're happy to have new members and we have a great range of ages from 16 up to 50, and the best bit, there is no "system-ism" we have folks that play all 3 core systems, some that play all three and even some warma-hordes/GW specialist games (the word 'Dreadfleet' has even been whispered in dark corners). It's a fantastic place to be.

So if you ever find yourself in Retford on a Tuesday night, feel free to join us and discover a positive gaming community.

Jadawin
11-08-2012, 00:17
Threads like this make me die a little inside. I will never, and I mean never, play against anyone I didnt know very well because of the horror stories on this kind of thread. I just find it staggering that people will openly cheat when rolling dice, or deliberately misinterpret rules to their own ends, I mean please what is wrong with people like that. To me Warhammer is what I daydream about during the day, the armylist I will write in my head, conversions and paintjobs I will attempt, the cunning plan to win the game that my opponent will never see coming all washed down with a bucketful of beer on a Friday or Saturday night in good natured bonhomie. Alternatively I could go into a GW store with my pride and joy army and have to put up with some adolescent soap dodger who wont throw dice properly. Ill just play against my mate I reckon.