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newbee
14-07-2012, 02:31
Just a simple question. Would you consider 6 wraithlords in a 2000 pt army with no allies cheesy?

MajorWesJanson
14-07-2012, 02:36
2 FOCs?

Maybe a little, but it is no worse than any other MC heavy list like Daemons or Nids can do.

newbee
14-07-2012, 02:40
I think that other codex can do it better. And how come nobody talks about double foc? I mean is a whole new game now.

Chapters Unwritten
14-07-2012, 02:44
Don't forget you need to have 4 troops and 2 hqs minimum before those 6 Wraithlords.

newbee
14-07-2012, 02:57
Im suprised every one is siked about allies and not 2 foc. why break fluff instead of making your army better with 2 foc? Where i play 2000 points is the norm, yet every one is doing allies and not playing with he models they never could. I have had six wriathlods for the longest and hoped for a new codex just hoping that i could play that many. and now i can. then people start calling it cheese.

IcedCrow
14-07-2012, 03:21
I consider it spam which is boring and one dimensional. Cheesy? Meh I guess if its being done to try and powergame or min/max an element sure it's cheesy but cheesy is different to each person

Mikial
14-07-2012, 04:33
Not at all. Think about it from the Eldar's point of view.

Would they do that if they could? Yes.
Do the rules allow it? Yes.

Question answered. Have fun! Just be aware that your opponent will now try to find ways to counter it, which will result in a 40K arms race. :chrome:

Spell_of_Destruction
14-07-2012, 04:46
It might raise a few eyebrows but slap on an Iyanden theme and you're good to go.

Sigh, it's changed days since spamming Wraithlords was the finest mature cheddar.

newbee
14-07-2012, 06:05
So whats cheese? Is it spamming cheese what if you spamm swooping hawks, or jet bikes, or vypers? Would that be considered cheese? In a game a few days ago I pulled out 6 wraithlords and I swear people who saw the list rolled their eyes like it was a bad idea, it would never work it would never win bla bla bla. Then after I won those comments turn to spamming wraithlords =cheese. So i guess in order to not be cheese your list aparently has to loose, never win and suck. Am I alone here in thinking that there is no such thing as cheese? I think everything in 40k is balanced. I im wrong then i have to sell the other three wraithlords.

Haddock
14-07-2012, 06:10
I think everything in 40k is balanced. I im wrong then i have to sell the other three wraithlords. I have seen the best codices never win a game because the person playing was horrible. This game rewards good players. Min/max armies get all the bad rap but we live in a generation where it is the units fault and not the controllers. People like to harp on bad die roll or cheese and never admit they were out played. As far as I am concerned, play what you want. The better general will win.

owen matthew
14-07-2012, 06:19
Not cheesy at all damnit, its called Iyanden!!!

marv335
14-07-2012, 08:05
My DE army would love to face that.

RandomThoughts
14-07-2012, 08:19
Just a simple question. Would you consider 6 wraithlords in a 2000 pt army with no allies cheesy?

I sure wouldn't. But then again, I play Eldar, I know to what lengths we have to go in order to stand a fighting chance against better lists. I've played 2 and 3 Wraithlord lists in 5th, they were strong, but hardly unbeatable.

Now a list with six lords... I see a bunch of bad matchups - basically anyone with poison or sniper weapons in larger quantity, or simple Terminators. Stormshield terminators will just munch the lords, regular ones should still outdo them point for point.

On the other hand, a list utterly unprepared to deal with T8 won't have much fun playing against you. Lists unable to deal with T8 should be rare on the higher levels of play, but in a random pick-up game in your LGS? Who says the guy you played against didn't start the hobby six months ago, and has only fought White Dwarf lists with lots of infantry and a single tank or walker before?

All of that aside, people are quick to judge and quick to call cheese, often in full ignorance of all the facts. One of my best friends keeps loosing against my Eldar with his Blood Angels and keeps telling me how powerful they are.

Well, I feel his thinking is finally changing, after easy blow out victories against a few "balanced" Eldar lists.


Don't forget you need to have 4 troops and 2 hqs minimum before those 6 Wraithlords.

So? 6 Lords is 600 to 910 points depending on load-out. More than enough points to spare for an Avatar, a Farseer and a few Jetbikes...


So whats cheese? Is it spamming cheese what if you spamm swooping hawks, or jet bikes, or vypers? Would that be considered cheese? In a game a few days ago I pulled out 6 wraithlords and I swear people who saw the list rolled their eyes like it was a bad idea, it would never work it would never win bla bla bla. Then after I won those comments turn to spamming wraithlords =cheese. So i guess in order to not be cheese your list aparently has to loose, never win and suck.

So very, very true.

However, the reason Wraithlord spam is strong but not top tier is rock-paper-scissors. They are the rock, poison, snipers and Terminators and such is their paper, everything else is scissors. If your opponent didn't bring the tools needed to deal with Wraithlords, the game will be very frustrating for him. It's not like he was outplayed, it's that his list never really stood a chance. And many of us outside of the competitive crowd believe that games should be decided on the table, not by the list you bring.

Well, I guess that kind of explains the cries of cheese my own Eldar sometimes get. It's not so much that they are super powerful, but that playing against them can be frustrating. Same way I used to think about Ork Nobs and all jumper Blood Angel armies (which triggered my change of pace from War Walkers to Wraithlords), and about Grey Knights after my one game against them, where I lost half my army without inflicting any significant casualties of my own.

Yeah, I think that's really the issue: Playing against an army your own army (the one you brought, not the codex in total) can't effectively fight against is pretty frustrating, thus the cry of "cheese".


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

:eek::shifty::shifty::):D:D:evilgrin::evilgrin::ev ilgrin::cries:
Hillarious!

Dylius
14-07-2012, 08:23
If you tell them that you've had those 6 wraithlords for a long time, and always wanted to play with all of them I can't see anyone having a problem.

RandomThoughts
14-07-2012, 10:40
I want to apologize in advance for the post I'm about to type. I don't intend to make fun of you, just of GW and their abyssal (lack of) balancing.

Meanwhile, regarding the cheese-cryers, why don't you ask them if they would prefer to fight 14 Space Marine dreadnoughts, which is (afaik) perfectly legal now.

First you take 3 as elite in both your primary detachment. Then you add tech marines to both detachments, followed by three more dreadnoughts as heavy support each. After that come allies. Since you ally with another Space Marine chapter, that should be another dreadnought in each secondary detachment. Not sure if there are any other codices beyond the Ultramarine codex that allows Dreadnoughts in more than one slot, if so, you might get as much as 16 or more dreadnoughts onto the table. XD

I've seen a 1500 point army in 5th that brought 6 Dreadnoughts once...

But, that aside. Why don't you just point out that Eldar are pretty close to the bottom of the feeder now. It's been ages since Eldar won any major tournament. With the state our codex is in, we need any edge we can get.

Although, to be honest, if I'm really, really honest, I actually think fielding any unit more than twice is getting repetitive and boring, both for the player and his opponents. I'd probably ask you to switch your army around after my second of third game.

Anyway, here comes the part I already apologized for:


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Yeah. And the NFL is balanced as well. Every team has the same shot to win the SB each year.
The Patriots just got lucky the last few years.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Sure, man. That's why each single codex has won roughly the same number of major tournaments over the last few years ... not.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Yeah, and it's a statistical aberration that Imperial Guard, Space Wolves and Blood Angels used to dominate the tournament scene for years, before Grey Knights and Necrons demanded their piece of the pie.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Exactly. Like Eldar Dire Avengers and Ork Shoota Boys. They actually are pretty balanced in a firefight.
Same range, same strength, same number of shots. Eldar hit twice as often (3+ against 5+), but Shoota Boys are exactly half the cost, so you'll get twice as many in a straight fight.
Saves also balance out - there are twice as many Orks as Eldar to be killed, but only half the shots will kill an Eldar due to his 4+ armor. So far, the two are perfectly balanced.
But that's before you figure in the Toughness 4, the fact that the Orks could get cover saves, and that little, barely relevant thing called melee where the Shoota Boys will outright destroy the Avengers. Yeah. fine balance there...

(Actually, I'm suddenly even more convinced the 30 Blood Axe shoota boys I'm currently assembling were a good investment:))


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Exactly. Which is why a foot-slooging Eldar army composed entirely from Aspects with only Autarchs and/or the Avatar are fully competitive. 100 points of Swooping Hawks are perfectly able to win against 100 points of assault Marines. And a 200 points Banshee unit stands an equal chance against 200 points of Terminators, 200 points of Ork Nobs, 200 points of Chaos demons.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Exactly. Razorback spam is exactly as powerful than spamming tactical Marines without transports.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Exactly. Grey Hunters might be better than basic Space Marines, but they cost less to make up for the difference.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Exactly. People complaining about Pyrovores, Eldar Guardians with 12" guns and Tau Etherals simply need to learn how to use them properly.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Exactly. Eldar Guardians cost two point more than Imperial Guard infantry and Ork boys because they are a superior unit with better weapons and better survivability.


I think everything in 40k is balanced.

Actually, this whole post became far less witty criticism and far more whiny whining than I intended. For that, please let me apologize even more.

xxRavenxx
14-07-2012, 10:48
I really must point out that guardians are not a better unit than ork boys. Point for point, they will lose a direct confrontation with the orks, both on the shooting front, and in combat, where they will get reemed.


Anyway, what is cheese? was the question.

Cheese is generally identifying a good unit and then spamming it for powerful effect.

For example: 1 Vendetta - Fine. 3 Vendettas - Not fine.
2 Wraithlords - Fine. 6 Wraithlords - Not fine.
10 Purifyers - Fine. 30 Purifyers - Not fine.
0 Hades Breaching Drills - Fine. 1 Hades Breaching Drill - Not fine.

And so on and so forth. :p

I threw the drill in, because at no point is it actually a balanced and fair unit, and every use of the thing is "cheese". It shows off nicely that abuse comes in many forms.


It can be a real problem when something fluffy and something "cheesy" collide too. I fully get that Iyanden would field 6 lords. But it doesn't make for an enjoyable game for an opponent. In the same way that catachan jungle fighters could lay claim to three "black hawk" vendettas, but shouldn't ever do it in polite society.

mercury14
14-07-2012, 11:44
Forget about Wraithlords. Run 18 War Walkers and 18 Vypers w/shuricannons.

Throw *coughs* 270 S6 shots in the first round and leave your opponent with nothing to counter you with. That's enough to kill 19 termis or 39 MEQs in just one round.

lantzkev
14-07-2012, 11:46
Forget about Wraithlords. Run 18 War Walkers and 18 Vypers w/shuricannons.

Throw *coughs* 270 S6 shots in the first round and leave your opponent with nothing to counter you with.

how many points does that comes to? just curious

mercury14
14-07-2012, 11:51
how many points does that comes to? just curious

Should be around 1100 for the WWs alone. So you can bring less vypers or even no vypers and the effect will still be devastating at the 2000 point level.

Sithlord
14-07-2012, 11:56
bahhhhh... 6 wraithlords? give me some splinter rifles to swat those bruties

Chem-Dog
14-07-2012, 12:11
Just a simple question. Would you consider 6 wraithlords in a 2000 pt army with no allies cheesy?

Given the innumerable ways it's possible to easily kill a Wraithlord these days (Hello Dark Eldar) or counter them with other, more fighty, Monstrous Creatures, I wouldn't consider it over the top these days but you might find yourself going through Wraithlords at a rapid pace.


Not at all. Think about it from the Eldar's point of view.

Would they do that if they could?

They can and they don't unless in the direst circumstances. Eldar of the Craftworlds really don't like to disturb the spirit stones of those who are one with the infinity circuit, they're not inclined to build Wraithlord Squad Alpha Team just because it'd be fun.

Overlord Krycis
14-07-2012, 16:09
Cheese?

Nope...if you can bring 6 HS selections then that means your opponent can too. For me that could be:

6 Defilers, or 18 Obliterators, or 6 Units of Long Fangs...both the Long Fangs and the Defilers would come to less than 1000pts and the Obliterators would just be terrifying and they are all spammy-cheese...

Besides, 6 Wraithlords is fluffy if you play Iyanden (Like I used too...).

Monospot
14-07-2012, 16:52
If you put a couple of Wraithseers in front of that list, it would look extra-bonus cool.

PANZERBUNNY
14-07-2012, 18:19
People who cry cheese, you should ask them to make your army for you if they have a problem with other peoples choices. (Or man up and make better lists themselves.)

Lord Damocles
14-07-2012, 19:58
Six?

Man up and use eight (two HQ Wraithseers)!

RandomThoughts
14-07-2012, 21:37
I really must point out that guardians are not a better unit than ork boys. Point for point, they will lose a direct confrontation with the orks, both on the shooting front, and in combat, where they will get reemed.

Exactly my point. (If you read my whole point, the sarcasm (or is it irony, I never know which is which) in the guardian paragraph should become glaringly obvious.)

RandomThoughts
14-07-2012, 21:38
I really must point out that guardians are not a better unit than ork boys. Point for point, they will lose a direct confrontation with the orks, both on the shooting front, and in combat, where they will get reemed.

Exactly my point. (If you read my whole point, the sarcasm (or is it irony, I never know which is which) in the guardian paragraph should become glaringly obvious.)