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View Full Version : Dreadnoughts in 6'th edition, Are they worth it?



Merellin
14-07-2012, 22:15
So I realy like Dreadnoughts but I was wondering, Are they worth it in 6'th edition with hullpoints and all? Would a Dreadnought heavy army be viable at all or would it be horribly bad?

Nurgling Chieftain
14-07-2012, 22:20
Dreadnoughts got hammered. Not only hull points, but the relative ease of striking them with grenades. The broken dreadnoughts - psyfilemen and twin-claw furiosos - are still useable, and maybe even Ironclads, but I'd be really dubious about bringing any walker with an armor value below 13 anywhere near close combat. Venerables basically lost their reason for existing.

Battleworthy Arts
14-07-2012, 22:30
Contemptors. All the way.

Merellin
14-07-2012, 22:30
I always had this idea of making a Dreadnought heavy Blood Angels army with all sorts of Dreadnoughts. But 6'th edition kind of made me realy hesitant to the idea.. And the only Dreadnought I know of with AV 13 is Bjorn the Fell-handed. I never used him in my Space Wolf army though..

ChaplainCharlie
14-07-2012, 22:32
But Sentinels remain the ever cheap and cheerful solution... Har har har!

Kloud13
14-07-2012, 22:37
If you have a flyer coming in, it might be usefull putting a Ironclad with 2 hvy flamers in a Drop-pod. Hopefully you will be able to take out the Gun emplacement in the Aegis Defence line.

I might even be tempted to have 2 Ironclads in pods, and a third pod filled with whatever. my 2nd Dread would have the 2 melta guns. Drop the two Ironclads, and nuke the AA units.

lantzkev
14-07-2012, 22:42
they didn't take that big of a hit, most troops can't do anything to them still except for the meltas and heavy weapons, anyone thinking they suddenly became god aweful thought they were better than they ever were before, because they weren't that amazing before.

MagicHat
14-07-2012, 22:59
lantzkev, they are hit by grenades by WS comparision, almost every SM unit carries krak grenades that can glance them to death and if immobilised, they are hit on their rear facing.
How did they become better?


I always had this idea of making a Dreadnought heavy Blood Angels army with all sorts of Dreadnoughts. But 6'th edition kind of made me realy hesitant to the idea.. And the only Dreadnought I know of with AV 13 is Bjorn the Fell-handed. I never used him in my Space Wolf army though..

Furioso/librarian dreadnoughts in the BA elite section is 13/12/10.

hobojebus
14-07-2012, 23:12
I took a mortis pattern in my first game of 6th, it survived only losing a single hull point and more than made up its points, it killed a landspeeder earning me first blood in a VP game, slaughtered a librarian and pulped a number of scouts aswell as chipping away at other vehicles.

If you charge them at the enemy without using cover yes expect them to die fast, if your smart though and make sure its not in LoS of all your opponents heavy weapons they can still do their part.

Friedrich von Offenbach
15-07-2012, 00:22
i had a great battle between two venerable dreads once. They hacked at each other untill they were both imobilised, lost their close combat weapons and got shuck/stunned a million times it was silly, but fun at the same time. In 6th however this fight would have been over in the first turn, and i think dreads are going to be like all veichles in that all weapons are just as dangerous (doesnt matter if their s4 or 10

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 00:43
lantzkev, they are hit by grenades by WS comparision, almost every SM unit carries krak grenades that can glance them to death and if immobilised, they are hit on their rear facing.
How did they become better?
You need 12 guys attacking to get one glance with kraks on average. Hardly the terrible disaster you make it out to be.

Nurgling Chieftain
15-07-2012, 01:00
Krak grenades are more than a factor of ten better than they used to be in terms of destroying, not merely glancing, which wasn't very effective in 5th. A squad of ten with a handy 'fist will very likely drop an A12 dread in three turns, whereas before you might average six.

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 01:09
Well, there were few things as pointless as those never ending combats where the Dread squished 1 guy a turn all game long, so no loss there.

vlad78
15-07-2012, 01:27
Well, there were few things as pointless as those never ending combats where the Dread squished 1 guy a turn all game long, so no loss there.

And changing the rules so that dreads dies in one or two turns most of the time is better, isn't it?:D

Anything with less than AV 12 has a very very very limited lifespan. Necrons and dark eldars just laught at them, Tau do the same and demons with nurgle templates do either. Guards are so numerous that they'll eat them alive.


You need 12 guys attacking to get one glance with kraks on average. Hardly the terrible disaster you make it out to be.

You do not take into account that marine sergents usually have a melta (if they don't they should) which hits at normal WS. So with just a little luck, against a tactical squad of 10 marines, that's one penetrating hit and one glancing first turn. If your Dread already suffered a hit before, he's toasted. If not, chances are he'll be toasted the second turn either by hull point losses or by the meltabomb.

dread were never really though and now they are very weak.

Kenzaburo
15-07-2012, 08:26
see, and that's were you are making interesting assumptions: marine sergeants usually have melta? not where i live. melta bombs are rarely seen around my place and especially among my group.

it's more of the standard "internet makes up a problem in a very specific set of circumstances and generalises it" fare. it's the same with that rumored huge amount of guard players, all marine tac squads having power fists and all that jazz. that is NOT the standard everywhere! some people like their sergeants with power weapons or sometimes mere chainswords.

Banville
15-07-2012, 08:59
Plus a fully kitted out unit of marines, with fist (which you'll see much much less of now) and meltas, tops out at a little over 200 points. That's a fair trade, point for point.

RunepriestRidcully
15-07-2012, 09:05
So are chaos contemptors stil any good?

Charax
15-07-2012, 09:23
Depends entirely on whether you count losing a hull point as one of the "effects of a glancing hit"

ManOfRust
15-07-2012, 10:16
Just dropping by, I don't play much 40k at the moment as I am still re-building my brettonians for fantasy but I did see an interesting tactic take shape whilst I was in my local GW yesterday.

Blood Angels Dread was stuck in combat with 14-odd CSM and an aspiring champion w/powerfist, that number of krak grenades with the powerfist on top would have ended the combat pretty fast except that the BA player had also charged in his librarian, challenging the champ and taking him out. I didn't stay long enough to see how it played out but it seemed like a pretty good combo strategy, maybe GW is just trying to make people use their dreads in a slightly different way?

xxRavenxx
15-07-2012, 10:23
@ManOfRust:

My thoughts exactly. A dread in combat strikes me as something which needs support, not a one man killing machine. (It never was, lets face it.)

Next time a marine book rolls round, I'm hoping they gain an attack or drop a few points, to make them a little more worthwhile, but otherwise, they're decent enough.

MagicHat
15-07-2012, 11:09
You need 12 guys attacking to get one glance with kraks on average. Hardly the terrible disaster you make it out to be.

I wasn't aware that pointing out nerfs to a guy that claims that dreadnoughts got better was making it out to be a disaster.
I am pretty sure that you know this already, but I will point it out anyway: CC dreads weren't good in 5th, and they aren't good in 6th, because their whole plan is to get into melta range. Now, a squad have a much easier time to finish of a damaged dread, as an immobilised walker don't stand a good chance against 10 kraks.



it's more of the standard "internet makes up a problem in a very specific set of circumstances and generalises it" fare. it's the same with that rumored huge amount of guard players, all marine tac squads having power fists and all that jazz. that is NOT the standard everywhere! some people like their sergeants with power weapons or sometimes mere chainswords.
When we discuss the general power of a unit like a dread, shouldn't we judge it from the choices availible in a codex, rather then how one gaming group have decided to play? Otherwise, discussing tactics becomes rather meaningless, don't it?
SM sergeants taking a powerfist/combi-melta/meltabomb (now boosted) to aid AT is not some fringe choice for the excentric.
That is my opinion.


Plus a fully kitted out unit of marines, with fist (which you'll see much much less of now) and meltas, tops out at a little over 200 points. That's a fair trade, point for point.

SM tacticals/assault marines with two AT weapons, IG veterans, wyches with haywire and firedragons, for example, have a good chance of killing/immobilising in shooting (then killing in CC) a dreadnought while losing a lot less points then the dread.

I am not saying that grenades are the killing stroke, that would be the meltaguns. Grenades just happens to add an extra layer of insurance (and make Wyches with haywire one of the most capable tankwreckers in the game in CC).

lantzkev
15-07-2012, 11:18
who on earth was saying they got better?

boogle
15-07-2012, 11:38
If your dread is holding up a unit for 3 turns instead of 6, then thats still a good thing isn't it?

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 12:22
I wasn't aware that pointing out nerfs to a guy that claims that dreadnoughts got better was making it out to be a disaster.

He never said that, he said that they were always bad and that people must have been grossly overestimating Dreadnought survivability before if they think the new rules make much of a difference. Admittedly, the post was rather convoluted.

Merellin
15-07-2012, 14:52
So, Does anyone think a Dreadnought heavy Blood Angels list would work in 6'th edition..?

IcedCrow
15-07-2012, 15:27
Dreads are now support units as opposed to solo HULK SMASH units. Use them as such.

Daedalus81
15-07-2012, 15:37
I plan to take at least one with 5 bezerkers as support. You can either try and clamp grenades on the dread while the bezerkers butcher the squad or you can let the dreadnought rampage. Either way your meltabomb sarge will get challenged out.

mughi3
15-07-2012, 16:16
So I realy like Dreadnoughts but I was wondering, Are they worth it in 6'th edition with hullpoints and all? Would a Dreadnought heavy army be viable at all or would it be horribly bad?

Sadly i feel your pain this was my 4th/5th final dread army seige list. very fun to play fluffed out army that was incredibly durable.


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/PB2kdred.jpg


I wont even put in on the table in 6th(tried it already and lost every thing. in 4th/5th i put up a good fight and won a good bit as well.). 3 glances and they go *POOF*
most people consider marines as the baseline and yes against AV12 krak do the job along with a fist. as most times a dread will kill no more than 1 or 2 model a round of CC, that are not in terminator armor. That usually scores you a couple glances back per CC. you run into terminators with hamers/fists any eldar with haywire grenades or tau EMP grenades it is pretty much guaranteed glance death before you even roll on the damage table. about the only role for dreads now is to sit behind good cover and provide fire support preferably with a techi hanging around ot repair hull points. the rifleman grey knight dread with psy-bolts is a win across the board it can even glance land raiders to death.

sadly the stack of negative nerfs make the walking engine of doom alot less doomy in this edition.

Merellin
15-07-2012, 16:24
The opponents I face play Imperial guard, With a Space Marine ally detachment, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar. The Grey Knight player has basicaly stopped using his Grey Knights though and play primarily his Chaos Space Marines. All Khorne Berzerkers at that.

mughi3
15-07-2012, 16:36
@ManOfRust:

My thoughts exactly. A dread in combat strikes me as something which needs support, not a one man killing machine. (It never was, lets face it.)



*looks at post*.... *looks at dread fluff entry in the books-4th and 5th ed* hmm you, 6th ed and GW fluff seem to be in 2 totally different places.

with descriptions like "death incarnate", "towering war machine", "terrifying foes", "exceptionally difficult to slay" "assaults commence with a WAVE of dreadnoughts first driving a wedge into the enemy line"

Seems like a big stompy one man killing machine to me.

MajorWesJanson
15-07-2012, 17:01
*looks at post*.... *looks at dread fluff entry in the books-4th and 5th ed* hmm you, 6th ed and GW fluff seem to be in 2 totally different places.

They say exactly the same thing about Space Marine infantry as well. Game balance > game fluff.

PANZERBUNNY
15-07-2012, 17:05
Dreads were always described as ancient machines with an ancient mauled space marine inside.

Seems like quite a waste to throw at the front line, to get hammered and blasted apart by concentrated fire.

I never understood how disposable they always seemed.

"Send Jimmy and Bob. They're only marines with a few centuries under their belt. NO biggy if they get laid out."

Daedalus81
15-07-2012, 17:22
Dreads were always described as ancient machines with an ancient mauled space marine inside.

Seems like quite a waste to throw at the front line, to get hammered and blasted apart by concentrated fire.

I never understood how disposable they always seemed.

"Send Jimmy and Bob. They're only marines with a few centuries under their belt. NO biggy if they get laid out."

I always feel sad when my Thousand Sons die, because there won't be any more of them. Fortunately GW saw fit to ignore fluff when making a game.

Scammel
15-07-2012, 17:55
I always feel sad when my Thousand Sons die, because there won't be any more of them.

Unless you know how to bind the souls back to their armour. :)

Banville
16-07-2012, 08:57
Isn't it established fluff that Marine Chapters have around ten Dreadnoughts in total? To see one on a battlefield is rare. Don't get me wrong, I love my Dreads but I never really expected them to survive an entire battle. The Fire Support version has actually gotten more effective, in my oinion.

totgeboren
16-07-2012, 12:37
I'm a bit sad that my chaos dread with a plasma cannon got tripple-nerfed! First off, it shares the general issue dreads have in that they are fairly easy to destroy. Secondly, my plasma cannon can't snap-fire, meaning it's a worse weapon than most of the other guns it can carry, and thirdly plasma cannons can overheat on vehicles and cause glances!

On the other hand, having ranged Ap2 weapons and Ap2 weapons that strike at initiative is worth abit more now, and it got faster, so I'm not convinced Dreads are worthless. Just harder to use, as they are now a support unit, and not a substitue for say a tactical squad/CSM squad. At least you loyalists don't have to worry that your dreads will go crazy and do something stupid. Support units that act randomly are alot worse than powerhouse units that do the same, as the randomness forces the unit it is suppose to support to behave in less than optimal ways to account for the behaviour of the dread.

NealSmith
16-07-2012, 14:02
I used two Standard Dreadnoughts in my SM army in 5th. I used them to anchor the gunline and preempt enemy assault units by getting them stuck in with the assault units before they could hit the gunline. This worked great for most because it became a tarpit for the enemy. Sometimes, the enemy would throw in another unit to try to kill the dreadnought and I loved it even more!

Not only the whole glancing = hull point thing hurts, but now there is a rule that units that can't hurt a dreadnought aren't locked in combat with it any longer. This makes sense, but it stinks! :)

TywinLannister
16-07-2012, 14:20
In my first 6th ed game, my multi-melta dread in drop pod ganked a land raider redeemer and got the terminators inside down to 2 models before going boom, so i was pretty happy

brightblade
16-07-2012, 14:26
All I can add is that I always take a dread because I think they are cool and so far in sixth they have kicked ****! Especially my furioso with frag cannon, grapple, fist and flamer! I have used all weapons successfully and romped around having fun. I can only think of a couple of games in fourth and fifth where a dread actually survived the game!

I love 'em! :)

Konovalev
16-07-2012, 14:41
Venerable dreadnoughts are now virtually useless. Best case scenario you will reroll the damage chart twice. Their durability from the re-rolls was their main selling point and now it's gone.

Being a space marine unit though I wouldn't be surprised to see the venerable rule changed from re-rolling damage chart results to re-rolling armor penetration, which would make venerables more amazing than ever.

Buddha777
16-07-2012, 14:58
I think BA dreads are still just ace for the most part. A DC blender dread carried in a stormraven has an effective delivery system (can assault after being dropped off) and will literally crush any non 2+ save enemies in a turn hands down.

Veteran Sergeant
16-07-2012, 15:44
Dreads are now support units as opposed to solo HULK SMASH units. Use them as such.

To be fair, that was what they were always supposed to be. In the old days, they were reasonably vicious in hand to hand, but you weren't using them to charge the enemy. The power fist was to let them squish things if they happened to get charged, or assault close-by vehicles. I know that in the old days, I never used the Dreadnought to get into close combat. It was sitting back shooting at things with its heavy weapons.

The dreadnought is a walking tank. It's not supposed to be some graceful infantry mulcher. And tanks require infantry support, especially in close combat. If 6th is requiring players to use them more reasonably, well, then that's not a bad thing.

loveless
16-07-2012, 15:52
The dreadnought is a walking tank. It's not supposed to be some graceful infantry mulcher. And tanks require infantry support, especially in close combat. If 6th is requiring players to use them more reasonably, well, then that's not a bad thing.

Probably true of the standard Dreadnought - things like the Furioso are set up to be melee units in most cases. Ironclads can go infantry or tank hunting. They're hardly graceful, as you point out, but there's enough variation in types and armament that "stand back and shoot" is less of a requirement now, making it a bit odd in some cases.

I always felt odd drop-podding an Ironclad into enemy lines. Did it blow up vehicles? Yes. Did it become a useless piece of scrap next turn? Yes - but it had already achieved its purpose. Effective, but not how I really wanted to use a Dread.

Iffy as they may be now, my desire to run the "I have too many damn Dreadnoughts" BA list is no weaker than it was in 5th. It's mainly my ability to make myself keep my wallet closed that's stopping me from doing it :p

IcedCrow
16-07-2012, 16:15
To be fair, that was what they were always supposed to be. In the old days, they were reasonably vicious in hand to hand, but you weren't using them to charge the enemy. The power fist was to let them squish things if they happened to get charged, or assault close-by vehicles. I know that in the old days, I never used the Dreadnought to get into close combat. It was sitting back shooting at things with its heavy weapons.

The dreadnought is a walking tank. It's not supposed to be some graceful infantry mulcher. And tanks require infantry support, especially in close combat. If 6th is requiring players to use them more reasonably, well, then that's not a bad thing.

That's why I said "now they are support" =)

As a support tool they enhance your main marine squads.

As a person that enjoys facing off against armies and less against a handful of super powered models, I like that they are now support and not really viable to compose an army around five or six of anymore.

Veteran Sergeant
16-07-2012, 16:21
I was agreeing with you, lol.

Veteran Sergeant
16-07-2012, 16:24
Probably true of the standard Dreadnought - things like the Furioso are set up to be melee units in most cases.
It would still need support. Being close combat focused (as silly of an idea as that is for a large, lumbering, walking tank) doesn't mean it's able to operate unsupported. The idea behind the close combat dreadnoughts would be for close quarters fighting like urban or industrial areas where you might need something with big squishy fists to smash walls or fortifications. Nobody would realistically operate close combat dreadnoughts on an open battlefield, lol. That's just a side effect of the fact that 40K is a simplified wargame, and not a battlefield simulation, so rule of cool often overrides "rule of what makes sense". ;)

brightblade
16-07-2012, 16:44
Close support is exactly how I use mine. They lay down fire (with frag cannons for example) so that my assault units can optimise their charges.

My other dreads do the same, be it a decimator or a heavy support dread or a wraithlord. The only ones who run to punch are my deff dreads and my death company talon guy (who rarely plays as the model is too expensive, being a forgeworld conversion!)

Konovalev
16-07-2012, 16:54
Nobody would realistically operate close combat dreadnoughts on an open battlefield, lol.

Nor would they mass foot infantry on an open battlefield either but some people swear up and down that mass infantry is the way the game is meant to be played.

Veteran Sergeant
16-07-2012, 17:07
Again, a side effect of this being a simplified tabletop game and not a battlefield simulation. Pretty much everything about 40K runs contrary to "realism". My old joke in 3rd Edition was that "In the grim darkness of the far future, the man with a rifle is the weakest guy on the battlefield, who cowers in terror while his enemies run screaming across open ground to hit him with an energized stick".

rocdocta
16-07-2012, 17:12
well i have never seen a dread last past turn 2. 2 hull points = dead dreads. i may add that i use a necron scythewing and my oppos know full well what is coming and can tool up for it.

Cthell
16-07-2012, 17:24
2 hull points = dead dreads.

Dreadnoughts have 3 hull points

Chem-Dog
16-07-2012, 17:38
But Sentinels remain the ever cheap and cheerful solution... Har har har!

And at 2000 points (with a bit of creative squeezing) a double FOC can net you 18 of the little blighters!


Krak grenades are more than a factor of ten better than they used to be in terms of destroying, not merely glancing, which wasn't very effective in 5th. A squad of ten with a handy 'fist will very likely drop an A12 dread in three turns, whereas before you might average six.

I'm not disagreeing with you Chief, but this does appear to discount the rather obvious fact that the Dreadnought is, in each of those three turns, pounding the enemy who are swarming him with a big shiny fist of death, I reckon that would stretch his survival out a little, when running averages.


I think Dread-Heavy is still a viable build option (as viable as it ever was). You're gonna suffer against armies with a lot of anti Vehicle gear, but you always did. Krak Grenades are still far from being standard equipment outside of certain Codexes. Potentially Charging 12" into a combat isn't to be sniffed at either.

Ronin_eX
16-07-2012, 17:44
Incidentally with Overwatch now in play Dreadnoughts seem like perfect units to charge in first and absorb it. Seems like an ideal way to handle big squads like Shoota mobs who will be tossing out a lot of shots. So use the Furioso to act as assault support for your main assault units. It is also striking at initiative value with weapons that will instakill most things. So it is a great assassin if you maneuver well and pull off a charge on specific units (like those hidden fists).

While most marine units carry Krak grenades by using them they are forced limit themselves to a single attack. Not a huge deal for tacticals but for assault marines and veterans it is a great catch 22 if you charge them with another unit that isn't a dread. In either case 10 marines with Krak grenades will deal 0.833 HPs per round which means a fresh dread is surviving against a fresh tactical squad for four turns without support. But if you are planning well then it will have support and there will be a squad ready to rush in after it has eaten the OW fire.

Dreads got the same treatment as any other vehicle, their death is more predictable, until that time they are more reliable.

And it occurs to me that Marine players should be bitching the least about HPs, we are one of the only armies that have repair units available. If you don't want your dread going down then buy a Techmarine (for ranged support types). If you don't want it dying in HtH with Marines then support it with an infantry charge.

In my mind the only real change has been that dreads use different tactics now. If you use them to their strengths then they will perform well, if you continue using them in situations in which they are weak (no support) then they will die. I think the only dreads that need fixing are Venerables since their trait has been devalued by the damage chart becoming a lot less common. Hopefully vennies get a point break or a change in rules (perhaps 'It Will Not Die'?). But standard dreads are still priced pretty close to the mark for a support unit.

ConfessorTurpin
16-07-2012, 18:05
My opinion isn't really popular... but I've always been a big fan of fielding the models/units that you like and that complement your vision for the army regardless of stats, vulnerability, rule changes, etc.

If you like dreadnoughts, field dreadnoughts.

Nurgling Chieftain
16-07-2012, 20:53
...things like the Furioso are set up to be melee units in most cases. Ironclads can go infantry or tank hunting. They're hardly graceful, as you point out, but there's enough variation in types and armament that "stand back and shoot" is less of a requirement now, making it a bit odd in some cases.Furiosos and Ironclads can shrug off krak grenades, in addition to being quite a bit more resistant to most powerfists. Indeed, a properly equipped Furioso can tear apart a marine squad in a single round of combat, and will probably do so in two rounds.


I'm not disagreeing with you Chief, but this does appear to discount the rather obvious fact that the Dreadnought is, in each of those three turns, pounding the enemy who are swarming him with a big shiny fist of death, I reckon that would stretch his survival out a little, when running averages.Less than you might think. A standard dreadnought has two attacks, hitting on 4's and killing on 2's. That's just 2.5 marines dead over three turns, each of which planted a krak grenade before it died, saving him approximately 1.67 attacks back, which will have no significant effect on the odds. At least the 5th edition dread would whittle the squad down to half strength...

In mid-3rd edition, "hidden powerfists" were a rarity, with sergeants being separately targetable, and grenades could not be attached to mobile dreadnoughts at all. While you might get a few attacks at its back, the dreadnought could change its facing in combat to minimize that. They were serious tarpits back then.