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View Full Version : Of Palladins and Nobz - Look out sir



Marked_by_chaos
14-07-2012, 23:00
I attended the 40k open day today at Warhammer World and had the opportunity to speak to the game designers about the new rules.

One thing that I raised was the new wound allocation rules and look out sir.

I specifically asked about whether the intention was for units such as nobz and palladins, where they are a unit entry with every model listed as infantry (character) in the rulebook summary section, was intended to be treated as a unit of characters for the purposes of look out sir. It appears that they are now aware of this issue and that it may be shortly receiving a FAQ with the intention behind the rules apparently having been that characters for look out sir purposes were intended to only be sergeant type upgrades and independent characters. i.e. nobz are only treated as a character when they are an upgrade for a unit of boyz.

It appears that units of characters as referred in the rulebook would be for example, marneus calgar and tigarius forming a unit of two characters

Ulrig
14-07-2012, 23:04
Thanks for your never ending quest to make nobs un-playable.

Miredorf
14-07-2012, 23:07
I hope this is true as it would eliminate the only unbearable thing in the rules.


Thanks for your never ending quest to make nobs un-playable.

I guess you mean unplayable ''at tournaments''. A very much important difference for those of us who dont care about them.

Thoth62
14-07-2012, 23:21
Thanks for your never ending quest to make nobs un-playable.

huhwut? They get a look out sir when they're leading a squad of boyz. They don't when they are in a squad of nobz. How does this make them unplayable?

Scribe of Khorne
14-07-2012, 23:22
I attended the 40k open day today at Warhammer World and had the opportunity to speak to the game designers about the new rules.

One thing that I raised was the new wound allocation rules and look out sir.

I specifically asked about whether the intention was for units such as nobz and palladins, where they are a unit entry with every model listed as infantry (character) in the rulebook summary section, was intended to be treated as a unit of characters for the purposes of look out sir. It appears that they are now aware of this issue and that it may be shortly receiving a FAQ with the intention behind the rules apparently having been that characters for look out sir purposes were intended to only be sergeant type upgrades and independent characters. i.e. nobz are only treated as a character when they are an upgrade for a unit of boyz.

It appears that units of characters as referred in the rulebook would be for example, marneus calgar and tigarius forming a unit of two characters

Since when do Paladins even LEAD other units? They obviously where made characters for a reason. Now aware? The only thing they could be 'now aware' of is that there are hordes of people out there who get their panties in a bunch over multi-wound models, or are too slow to process how it could work.

If Paladins retain this ability and they remove it from Nobz as you seem to imply then it will be the final nail in proving that Ward has a raging GK fetish.

/troll_mode off

Units with multi-wound models should be able to spread them around, as it was OBVIOUSLY intended by the Paladin entry. PAINFULLY OBVIOUSLY.

Ulrig
14-07-2012, 23:55
I hope this is true as it would eliminate the only unbearable thing in the rules.



I guess you mean unplayable ''at tournaments''. A very much important difference for those of us who dont care about them.

Yes, screw all the units you do not use, that is the attitude one should have. You must play a meq army. If you had any idea how much a unit of them cost, and how much they are supposed to rip you a new one for their cost, you would understand why they need to be more survivable.

Starchild
15-07-2012, 00:05
@Ulrig: Nice try at trolling. Wound allocation on multi-wound models was always a rules exploitation. So I'm sorry if your Nobz unit was "ruined" but it's about time this RAW cheating stopped. :angry:

blackcherry
15-07-2012, 00:23
Eh. Nobs are welcome to do wound allocation shenanigans. Why else do I bring so many heavy bolters?

Gig
15-07-2012, 00:25
Since when do Paladins even LEAD other units? They obviously where made characters for a reason. Now aware? The only thing they could be 'now aware' of is that there are hordes of people out there who get their panties in a bunch over multi-wound models, or are too slow to process how it could work.

If Paladins retain this ability and they remove it from Nobz as you seem to imply then it will be the final nail in proving that Ward has a raging GK fetish.

/troll_mode off

Units with multi-wound models should be able to spread them around, as it was OBVIOUSLY intended by the Paladin entry. PAINFULLY OBVIOUSLY. Paladins can be on there own with no squad I guess that if what the OP says is true they have the character type so when they are off ramboing they can go challenging enemy characters to duels.

Also did no one else find it strange that regular Nobs are characters yet the richer stronger Meganobs aren't ?

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 00:28
If Paladins retain this ability and they remove it from Nobz

I can totally see this happening.

Clarkson
15-07-2012, 00:30
@Ulrig: Nice try at trolling. Wound allocation on multi-wound models was always a rules exploitation. So I'm sorry if your Nobz unit was "ruined" but it's about time this RAW cheating stopped. :angry:

But nobs needed it...

Lets compare the two shall we?

Nobz - WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A4 LD7 SV6+ flat standard nob.. 20pts and the extra attack is in combat for 2 CCW's

Pals - WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD9 SV2+/4++ basic pally... 55pts and a 4++ with sword, can deepstrike and cast new shiny psychic stuff.. (the can replace holocaust but keep hammerhand)

so ye for 35pts you get to hit most enemies on 3's in CC, with a Forcesword, striking before the nobs, can take halberds making them strike before anything short of a banshee, take hammers for free

to get a nob that is on par with a paladin he will cost.. 50pts, and thats just for the klaw and eavy armour..


take look out sir from them and they become multi wound models that can die to everything shot at them basically..

there's a reason you can make deathstar units out of paladins... THEY ARE TOO FREAKING OP

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 00:34
@Ulrig: Nice try at trolling. Wound allocation on multi-wound models was always a rules exploitation. So I'm sorry if your Nobz unit was "ruined" but it's about time this RAW cheating stopped. :angry:

But it's perfectly fine for IG to rotate their squadroned tanks and guships so you can take off 6 hull points without wrecking anything?

daboarder
15-07-2012, 00:35
Your wrong clarkson Palladins cannot change out their powers no GK's can except libbies and inquisitors, and even if they could you cannot mix and match.

Gig
15-07-2012, 00:50
From what I have read, and been told only Inquisitors, Coteaz and Librarians can exchange there powers, as they are the only ones given the exception in the FAQ.

If you read the rulebook it says that some codexes (all current ones) a psker will have a specific set of powers where this is the case it will be clearly stated in the relevant dex.

Otherwise the psyker generate random psychic powers.

Since paladins don't have the FAQ ruling they are stuck with Holocaust

Latro_
15-07-2012, 01:11
Its fairly obvious los isnt intended for squad level nobs etc... meganobs are not characters!

Scribe of Khorne
15-07-2012, 02:09
@Ulrig: Nice try at trolling. Wound allocation on multi-wound models was always a rules exploitation. So I'm sorry if your Nobz unit was "ruined" but it's about time this RAW cheating stopped. :angry:

You actually saw it as exploitation/cheating? Interesting I always had you pegged as a reasonable poster, clearly I was mistaken. :evilgrin:


Its fairly obvious los isnt intended for squad level nobs etc... meganobs are not characters!

They have a 2+ save, and already had very limited options to do it before!

Latro_
15-07-2012, 02:16
thats besides the point, the reason they are not isnt because they wanted nobs squads to all be chars and mega nobs not because they are 'better', its quite obviously intended for leader level nobs, since mega nobs cant lead units. Why on earth if normal nobs are characters would mega armour make them less of a character... its obvious they woudlent be, ye just clutching at straws trying to justify it

You can argue about the rawness of it till the cows come home, the fact is its unintended and if you do it you are not playing the game properly. Heck i play orks my self, i'm not gonna do it. I'd rather play the game correctly.

Its also fairly obviosu it will be addressed in an faq or codex update, so you'll just be exploiting it for a short period of time anyway... why bother

Ulrig
15-07-2012, 02:52
@Ulrig: Nice try at trolling. Wound allocation on multi-wound models was always a rules exploitation. So I'm sorry if your Nobz unit was "ruined" but it's about time this RAW cheating stopped. :angry:

Hardly trolling. And it was not rules exploitation, it is simply the way it was in 5th. This "edge" that orks had in "rules exploitation" kept them at what...mid tier? Nobs are supposed to be feared something fierce. It is the ork deathstar CC unit, and it is needed, and it is needed to be effective for the points cost. Spreading the wounds around like that kept them playable.

Gaargod
15-07-2012, 03:04
I'm gonna go with 'Matt Ward does not have a good grasp of the rules or (previously established) fluff'.

For example, blog shown in http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/faeit-212-exclusive-40k-design-studio.html (from the 40k Rumours),
The reason that charges are not allowed on Deep Strike is to prevent the utter predictability of mega-hard units appearing anywhere and destroying whatever they want every game. There was a possible hint about Genestealers being able to do this at some point in the future! . Amusingly, Ymgarl Genestealers are one of the few units that can deepstrike and charge. Or earlier in the same blog where he implies SoB and DE didn't exist at all in 2nd ed.

Hence why Paladins are characters. They clearly seemed characterful to him (or whichever cretin was writing the appendix and didn't address it in the FAQ - sorry, but those things are a mess), ergo he gave them the rules for characters. To be fair, he possibly wanted to give them Precision Shots/Strikes too - although god knows why, they clearly didn't need the buff.



Also, seriously for the people trying to argue about whether it was intentional - how on earth does it make any sense to have successive different guys 'Look Out Sir'ing the guy at the front? It makes very little logical sense in the fluff to have a unit of Nobz trying to save each other (or even cover themselves with each other), and it's also a horrific gamey principle. Consider the 5th ed wound allocation - Nids were very clearly written in mind not to have the ability to abuse it. Admittedly, they apparently gave up after that (although late Codexes can be forgiven for being written with 6th ed in mind where those sorts of shenanigans should be impossible). It very clearly says, where possible, to remove whole models. Bouncing wounds around the squad is at best rules exploitation.
Oh, and don't compare Nobz to Paladins. Yes, the comparison is bizarrely in favour of the Paladin, but the Ork codex is fairly old now versus a codex which is widely accepted as horrifically broken with very little external balance (although weirdly, it has reasonable-ish internal balance. If the shenanigans with FOC weren't possible, it'd probably have good internal balance!).

You may think it 'necessary' for your squads of nobz to have this clearly unintended buff (very clearly unintended as they now intend to fix it!) because otherwise they aren't worth their points, but then again, a whole lot of stuff isn't. Exhibit A - the Nid codex.

Starchild
15-07-2012, 03:42
But it's perfectly fine for IG to rotate their squadroned tanks and guships so you can take off 6 hull points without wrecking anything?nooooooo that is not ok! If anything that's even worse than the multiwound allocation cheat! :eek:

daboarder
15-07-2012, 05:30
nooooooo that is not ok! If anything that's even worse than the multiwound allocation cheat! :eek:


So following the RULES is cheating?

christ mate thats not even gamey if your tanks survive the turn they should be able to rotate, keep in mind that they only have a 6' move....geeze some people

Starchild
15-07-2012, 05:54
There's no way to resolve hull point allocation on squadrons without abstraction so the point is moot. My main bone to pick is wound allocation on Paladins. I'd even be ok with Nobz taking wounds for each other ("Oi! I'm da biggest and da strongest!") but without a special rule both units must suffer equally. :o

Thruster
15-07-2012, 05:58
Who cares for 4+ wound allocation when you can drop a Warboss/Draigo, sit them in front, and allocate all wounds on 2+ as much as you like.

Scribe of Khorne
15-07-2012, 06:59
thats besides the point, the reason they are not isnt because they wanted nobs squads to all be chars and mega nobs not because they are 'better', its quite obviously intended for leader level nobs, since mega nobs cant lead units. Why on earth if normal nobs are characters would mega armour make them less of a character... its obvious they woudlent be, ye just clutching at straws trying to justify it

You can argue about the rawness of it till the cows come home, the fact is its unintended and if you do it you are not playing the game properly. Heck i play orks my self, i'm not gonna do it. I'd rather play the game correctly.

Its also fairly obviosu it will be addressed in an faq or codex update, so you'll just be exploiting it for a short period of time anyway... why bother

Seen many Painboyz leading units before? Look them up, they are Characters. Hell they are a UPGRADE for a unit of Characters, and are still a character listed plain as day in the back of the 6th Rule Book.

Will GW change it? Maybe they will, but there is no interpretation, whatsoever, supported by precedent, rules as written, or even the FAQ (which lets remember EXPLICITLY removes the character designation from UNITS of Wolf Guard), no interpretation, other then those under any RAI full blow BIAS against Nobs using LOS! to pull Wound Allocation.

1. Its precedent from previous editions, and SHARED with Paladins in this edition.
2. Its CLEARLY demonstrated by the Painboy being a character, who cannot lead other units, and should otherwise be NOTHING but an upgrade.
3. Its not removed by a FAQ, when a separate FAQ written at the same time DOES remove the ability from a somewhat similar unit.

If you dont want to use it, fine, by all means dont, but it is CLEARLY intended at this time, to have Paladins and Nob units use Wound Allocation through Look Out Sir! and the only reason it could change, is to concede to baseless player bias.

lantzkev
15-07-2012, 07:07
why do we have two versions of the exact same thread here and in rules forum? please delete this duplicated nonsense!

TheDungen
15-07-2012, 08:01
So following the RULES is cheating?

Actually it is, i cant say for the new 40k brb but i'm pretty sure like in the whfb brb there is a rule on one of the first pages stating the rule of fun. Both player should have fun while playing the game.

That means any exploit breaks the rules. Not the rules about wound allocation but the rule of fun. And that is RAW.

Xandros
15-07-2012, 11:53
Seen many Painboyz leading units before? Look them up, they are Characters. Hell they are a UPGRADE for a unit of Characters, and are still a character listed plain as day in the back of the 6th Rule Book.

Will GW change it? Maybe they will, but there is no interpretation, whatsoever, supported by precedent, rules as written, or even the FAQ (which lets remember EXPLICITLY removes the character designation from UNITS of Wolf Guard), no interpretation, other then those under any RAI full blow BIAS against Nobs using LOS! to pull Wound Allocation.

1. Its precedent from previous editions, and SHARED with Paladins in this edition.
2. Its CLEARLY demonstrated by the Painboy being a character, who cannot lead other units, and should otherwise be NOTHING but an upgrade.
3. Its not removed by a FAQ, when a separate FAQ written at the same time DOES remove the ability from a somewhat similar unit.

If you dont want to use it, fine, by all means dont, but it is CLEARLY intended at this time, to have Paladins and Nob units use Wound Allocation through Look Out Sir! and the only reason it could change, is to concede to baseless player bias.

Hold your horses. It's not as certain as you make it out to be. The rules for characters mentions that upgrade characters are defined by having distinct profiles from their squad, which Paladins do not and Nobz do not when part of a nobz mob.

Take it easy.

EDIT: If it is indeed the case that nobz mobs and paladin squads are all characters, it will be really powerful. Not only a great freedom to allocate wounds, but also able to pick off single models with ease and highly compartmentalized in close combat in that getting assaulted by for example a hive tyrant you can keep feeding it one nob at a time.

Rick Blaine
15-07-2012, 12:24
Actually it is, i cant say for the new 40k brb but i'm pretty sure like in the whfb brb there is a rule on one of the first pages stating the rule of fun. Both player should have fun while playing the game.

That means any exploit breaks the rules. Not the rules about wound allocation but the rule of fun. And that is RAW.

By that logic, taking Vendettas is also a rules violation.

djhowitzer
15-07-2012, 13:01
yes - because paladins need to be more survivable. i have played 3 games against paladins now and killed a total of 4 models. and i have been tabled every time. short of taking an army specifically geared to beat them - ie. as many s8 ap2 weapons as i can squeeze in - i dont see how you beat them. and since it makes sense to take an all comers list to a pick-up game. . .
the fact that paladins can look out sir each other is very annoying. every time i got to pick who i hit through rolling 6 with a character they got to look out sir.

Mauler
15-07-2012, 13:04
Nice one, Marked_by_chaos! I asked Jervis & another developer a very similar question as mentioned in my Open Day thread.

daboarder
15-07-2012, 14:08
Actually it is, i cant say for the new 40k brb but i'm pretty sure like in the whfb brb there is a rule on one of the first pages stating the rule of fun. Both player should have fun while playing the game.

That means any exploit breaks the rules. Not the rules about wound allocation but the rule of fun. And that is RAW.


AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH!

oh that was a good one.

so despite agreeing implicitly to play by the rules of the game you believe that I should limit my options and not play the my utmost capacity in case you cry?

wow when you grow up your going to learn some very harsh leasons about life

the best part is your calling the core rules an exploit....WOW

what evidence do you have to support this ridiculous claim?

because I have a 400 odd page book that tells me exactly what the rules do and do not allowed and LOS in characters units is one of them.

Ulrig
15-07-2012, 14:47
You know whats great, If it is ruled that nobz in a nobz squad are not characters, then nobody in that squad (unless its a warboss) are able to accept challenges. Nobz will have free will to tear characters like meph a new one.

Codsticker
15-07-2012, 18:28
As this discussion is more appropriate to the Rules Forum and, indeed, as pointed out by lantzkev we have a duplicate discussion there, I am closing this thread and direct your attention here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?346614-Look-out-sir-and-nobz). :)

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad