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Chaos257
15-07-2012, 02:32
I'm thinking not...

With things like Marines being better at taking out vehicles in HTH combat and now tactical squads being able to stand toe to toe with a carnifex I can't see how having all my little minions vanish instantly under a hail of bolter fire and by big guys being laughably bad is going to be "friendly".

Sure, I can re-do my entire army, take fliers, more warriors, harpies and then really just annoy my opponent or shelve THE ARMY I PUT A HEAP OF EFFORT AND MONEY INTO CREATING THAT IS NOW BASICALLY UN-USABLE ON THE TABLE TOP IN ANY SETTING !

So... I bought the necron codex... reading through it I can confirm... nids are just awful.

13 points for a necron warrior... okay, it has a 4+ save and 5++ feel no pain (basically) a 24 inch range strength 4 AP5 weapon that insta glances on a 6 !

vs a gene stealer... it has a 5+ save and can rend in close combat (if it ever gets that far), oh but no shooting.

or a hormagaunt... for 10points it has 4 attacks on the charge, gets poison 4+, oh but t3 6+ save, no shooting... or I can bring the 6 point variant..... which basically does nothing. The hilarious part is that is just the necron warrior.

We won't go into a 17 point immortal vs the units that nids produce... because that really would be funny.

The issue as I see it is that nids need some way to replicate technology, they used to be compensated for that but that was taken away. They need some way to put options in their units and have special rules i.e like necrons but those have all been so badly nerfed.

It is okay for every other race to have some strength 8 ap2 weapon on a 40 point model.. but nids don't and they get nothing to compensate.

Excessus
15-07-2012, 02:44
Unusable? Hardly...

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 02:50
Anything is viable for friendly games.

Necrons also have the issue of being I2 armywide and generally (except for the ultra elite) don't kill heaps of models in a round of combat. A big blob of gaunts can hold them for a while, as the downside to fearless is gone.

09Project
15-07-2012, 02:50
Nids are dead

Nids have always been viable in a friendly game and continue to be so. 6th has been ok for nids, ok it been better for some others but Nids still are a good army to play with. I think some options have opened up with nids that weren't really there before.

As for comparing Nids to Necrons, that is a bit harsh on Nids which was a flawed book when it was released, comparing it to the new 'in' army will never end well for them.

Anyone playing Nids knows the limitations, but I personally have had some good success with the book, I still love them and play them very happily. Stealers for me have lost out more than most and I still rarely take warriors out for a game, but my hormagants are actually turning up for the first time in years, and they doing fine for me (basic 6pt variety).

Meh, my Dark Eldar have hardly seen the light of day for months now and my new Night Lords army has already had money diverted away from it to new Nids.

Nids have a lot to offer, it depends what you want out of them.

Long live nids

Dangersaurus
15-07-2012, 02:50
Who plays unfriendly games?

Corvus Corone
15-07-2012, 02:52
Got to disagree man.

I've been playing tyranids exclusively for the last year or so (the only army I have) using a mixed list in games 1250-1500. The tyranids aren't top of the power curve, but they aren't impotent either. They have big internal balance issues with the codex, yes, but many choices are still sound.

I'm not a strictly competitive player; I play in what I'd call a hard-fought friendly group. So far my tyranids (by which I mean their units and tactics) have fared very well against a variety of foes.

I won't attempt to school you on how to use bugs or anything like that. All I mean is that bugs are fine for friendly games in this codex and this edition in my experience.

Pyriel
15-07-2012, 02:54
nids get TWO str 8 shots for 50 points. look it up.

codex Nids is a good codex, but a codex VERY unfriendly to players. the reason for that is, its truly competitive units/lists/combinations are rather limited; many units are extremely powerful (yes hive guard, i'm looking at you) bt the internal balance between these units and the rest is horrible, relay. if you just "play models you like" you'll probably end up with a horrible army. to build a powerful tyranid army, you gotta go hardcore competitive. there is no middle ground, sadly. you either spam all the best units again and again and again wether you like them or not, building what many call an "internet cookie cutter tournament-oriented netlist" or your list will suck.

lantzkev
15-07-2012, 02:56
Tyrannids got boosts and got some changes, but overall they are just as good as they were in 5th... if you're having troubles with them now and somehow weren't before, you're just not looking at it right. Your monsterous creatures now are all able to strike at str 10.... without any upgrades for the most part. and are all ap 2, and can just brutally handle most characters in challenges.... Start challenging things and using stealth

Chaos257
15-07-2012, 03:06
Got to disagree man.

I've been playing tyranids exclusively for the last year or so (the only army I have) using a mixed list in games 1250-1500. The tyranids aren't top of the power curve, but they aren't impotent either. They have big internal balance issues with the codex, yes, but many choices are still sound.

I'm not a strictly competitive player; I play in what I'd call a hard-fought friendly group. So far my tyranids (by which I mean their units and tactics) have fared very well against a variety of foes.

I won't attempt to school you on how to use bugs or anything like that. All I mean is that bugs are fine for friendly games in this codex and this edition in my experience.

Look, they're okay in a friendly game IF and this is a very big IF your opponent is being nice to you. If he is trying to win, unless he or she is new to the game you will get beaten and beaten badly.

Chaos257
15-07-2012, 03:13
nids get TWO str 8 shots for 50 points. look it up.

codex Nids is a good codex, but a codex VERY unfriendly to players. the reason for that is, its truly competitive units/lists/combinations are rather limited; many units are extremely powerful (yes hive guard, i'm looking at you) bt the internal balance between these units and the rest is horrible, relay. if you just "play models you like" you'll probably end up with a horrible army. to build a powerful tyranid army, you gotta go hardcore competitive. there is no middle ground, sadly. you either spam all the best units again and again and again wether you like them or not, building what many call an "internet cookie cutter tournament-oriented netlist" or your list will suck.

In 4th edition I could take a nice balanced list. Two monstrous creatures MAX and you could do that because they were harder to kill and most other units were more viable. Was ace fun to play as nids, your opponent would blast your minions, then get swarmed, leaving a handful of units plus a carnifex on one wound.

Yeah people were worried about a T7 5wound 2+ save carnifex... as they should be... it'd soak fire power and kill whatever it charged... now fexes are a joke that are completely inferior to a single tactical squad and there is nothing in the book to compensate for the fact we don't get 5pt melta guns on our units.

Just not fun to use in any way. Actually feel like people won't want to play against me due to how easy it will be to beat my list.

09Project
15-07-2012, 03:16
Look, they're okay in a friendly game IF and this is a very big IF your opponent is being nice to you. If he is trying to win, unless he or she is new to the game you will get beaten and beaten badly.

Sorry but my experience hasn't stacked with this either in 5th or so far in 6th. Chaos perhaps it would be helpful if you gave us some idea of what issues you are having? At the moment everything is very general in terms. Also since when did Harpies and (to a lesser extent) warriors become a must have?

lantzkev
15-07-2012, 03:42
Honestly I have a hard time believing that 6th hasn't helped tyrannids overall. Most the combat issues they had were with characters, and now with challenges and monsterous creatures, if you apply your army correctly those guys aren't going to be the issues they were before, specifically for a carnifex.

Commissar Merces
15-07-2012, 03:43
Just got first place at a competitive tourney with 6th ed nids... unusable whaaat?

lantzkev
15-07-2012, 03:47
how many monsterous critters did you run btw?

Xerkics
15-07-2012, 04:01
I find that nidds do fine unless your enemy has lots of str8 blasts we dont have transports and both gaunts and warriors die from the instant death just the same. Its all fine and well having smash str 10 but carnifexes already had that on a charge and they massively overcosted. Genestealers are unfortunately not very viable against vehicles as no more charge from outflank and venom cannons no longer can blow up tanks with the change to vehicle dmg table. So im afraid while we got somewhat better against infantry lists while everyone else finds it easier to kill tanks now we find it much harder now. So friendly games sure its viable but dont expect to have much when there is lots of str8 blowing up your wars etc AS in nids can be effective but youll have to run a very specific lists tervigons hive guard etc if you want to win most time. This i dont like about nids atm that you are shoehorned into a specific build.

lantzkev
15-07-2012, 04:10
Guess you'll have to start using mawlocks more with the terror from the deep strikes on vehicles =p

Xerkics
15-07-2012, 04:30
Mawlocks are such ugly ugly models though.

Ventus
15-07-2012, 14:34
nids get TWO str 8 shots for 50 points. look it up.

codex Nids is a good codex, but a codex VERY unfriendly to players. the reason for that is, its truly competitive units/lists/combinations are rather limited; many units are extremely powerful (yes hive guard, i'm looking at you) bt the internal balance between these units and the rest is horrible, relay. if you just "play models you like" you'll probably end up with a horrible army. to build a powerful tyranid army, you gotta go hardcore competitive. there is no middle ground, sadly. you either spam all the best units again and again and again wether you like them or not, building what many call an "internet cookie cutter tournament-oriented netlist" or your list will suck.

Pyriel, I agree with your points for 5th and some may/will apply to 6th (and though the jury is out on 6th until the dust settles since we did get some buffs (and yes some nerfs), nids still have problems within the dex that the errata didn't touch - which it easily could have - overcosted units/poor rules/next to useless biomorphs/etc). It is good to see some people having fun and success with nids right now - hopefully this will still be the case once the dust does settle and many of the other units will see more table time.

What I am wondering is with your comments about the dex, how can you say the the nid codex is a good codex? Just because you can make a decent army with a very limited group of units/biomorphs that almost always are used while many others sit on the shelf or get minor attention does not make a good product. If this is a good codex, what is a bad codex? Look at the carnifex for example which most would agree was nerfed (to deal with the old nidzilla and because of new MCs) - way overcosted, if used almost always seen with TL devourers (what about all the other weapons it has), kit with a multitude of biomorph options made useless while other kits like warriors still have one set of rending claws for 3 models. The list of useless or poor options for many units and issues with units whether stats/weapons etc goes on and on. As I said it is nice to see people still playing nids and having success with them and I hope this continues as everyone learns the new game and things like flyers and certain Ally combos show up more. But regardless, the nid dex is a poor product that GW has shown it is not interested in trying to fix.

Pyriel
15-07-2012, 14:58
because my dex is 3 editions old, thats why. I am a devoted Black Templars player, no counts-as, and if i can help it, not even allies.

we cant take drop pods anymore. they are illegal due to a typo in the FAQ. it is NOT fixed.

our Landspeeder Typhoons recently got re-nerfed to 2 x str 5 shots instead of str 8(for same points). the FAQ forgot to rewrite the previous update, so the "new typhoon launchers" are, again, illegal.

our Righteous Zeal was designed(in 4th ed) to be a buff and, because it got nerfed to oblivion with 5th and 6th, is now a Drawback that, as written makes our marines roll at Ld 8 with a mere single casualty(and not 25% as normal) to flee. its "move to close combat" aspect it was designed for is now illegal. and it isnt fixed.

our dreadnoughts cant take autocannons, unlike all other marine codexes, due to no codex update. for the same reason, our venerable dreads are not ws/bs 5 but 4, like in all "old" 4th-ed marine codexes, but unlike all others(we are the last 4th ed marine dex, with seemingly no intent by GW to update anytime soon too)

our tacticals dont have frag or krak grenades, due to 4th-ed trends, and unlike the other dexes, they didnt get FAQed. sure, if we upgrade/ pay 20 pts/model for an Ld 8 squad, we can. but thats it.

i can go on and on about things not functioning the way they were designed to, or not functioning at all/being illegal(i repeat, we cant even legaly take drop pods for any unit whatsoever due to a damn typo). the only thing we can do is play on FAQ mishaps/stuff GW didnt realise, like mass-tankhunting turboshooting terminators with dual heavy weapons(and know that as soon as a new dex comes out, the models/broken 4th-ed setup will be illegal, hence they will be worthless, so we dont buy these models)


so yes, i would be glad to have a 5th-ed codex that has some very limited good builds instead of playing with FAQ mishaps that will become irrelevant/illegal in two years' time, leaving my models in the shelf, while simultaneously being unfluffy(lol@current supposedly cc-designed dex only being capable to utilise shooty-FAQ concepts). we have been playing with the same codex for 3 editions straight(mid-4th, all 5th, and at least two years of 6th according to schedule).

i envy you tyranid players. at least you can play a cc list like the race you chose is supposed to and enjoy a 40-ish % win percentage ( official NOVA percentages;GK, one of the best, only had like 15% more than nids). if i use MY cc-race codex to play cc instead of "abuse FAQ mistakes to stand back and shoot", I'll be worse off than Daemons, and thats saying something :( believe me, there is always worse. just be glad you dont play BT.

Montserrat
15-07-2012, 15:08
try eldar guardians, the new 6th edition cheese.

Ventus
15-07-2012, 17:53
Pyriel, I never said that the nids codex was the only one with issues. I play regularly with a BT player (not in 6th yet) and though he can make strong shooty lists (lascannon spam) and had a powerful CC unit, did not mean that his dex was fine. I agree BT needs a new dex. I also believe that the update that BT and DA got in 5th was too little too late. That type of update should have been out within 6 months or less of the vanilla marine dex. And GWs poor errata/FAQ that did things like make typhoons illegal are unacceptable.

Yes properly updating old dexes so that most units are viable long before they are getting a new dex should be standard practice. With nids the dex had many serious internal balance issues the day it was released and it was very clear that the dex would not age well. Are there good units or interesting rules/units in the nid dex? Of course - its not all bad. But as an overall product it was poor the day it was released and the fact that GW neglects to update other dexes properly doesn't change that.

I do hope that BT get a full dex in the near future and not a White Dwarf treatment.

Corvus Corone
15-07-2012, 22:41
Look, they're okay in a friendly game IF and this is a very big IF your opponent is being nice to you. If he is trying to win, unless he or she is new to the game you will get beaten and beaten badly.

Erm, sorry, but in the face of all my experience so far I'm going to have disagree with you strongly, on account of you being plain wrong.

I don't want to go into details with my win/loss ratio or the armies or players I've beaten, because I think it would damage my credibility (though I will gladly by PM if you like). I'll just say I've had a good amount of success from a 'winning the game' point of view.

I'm sorry if you're not winning, and I'd be happy to PM you some tips or pointers or critique your list. I enjoy helping other bug players and do so often over at the tyranid hive forum. But please don't tell me my army is 'okay in a friendly game IF my opponent is being nice' because, with all due respect, I'm in a much better place to judge that than I think you are, and I'm telling you, Tyranids Are Fine For Friendly Play.

You don't have to believe me and if you can't see it yourself, then that's fine; there are plenty of other armies out there to consider and perhaps tyranids just aren't for you.

Scribe of Khorne
15-07-2012, 23:06
Problem is, there are still Nid players who refuse to use their full tool kit, and adapt to late 5th, and now 6th edition trends. Nearly every army has to do it, with the new guys on the block setting the trends, but for some reason, Nid players just refuse and think they should be able to run what they did in 4th.

Boggles the mind.

Pyriel
16-07-2012, 00:02
...and thats the thing. scribe of khorne is correct.

5th(we know NOTHING of 6th's eventual environment yet, we havent seen a single 6th ed codex/trends) was all about vehicles, yet for some lame reason i saw some tyranids refusing to play Hive Guard spam. so they are new units; who cares! their spam is a mandatory choice, competitively. likewise, many tyranid players used Carnifex(a unit that only functions well as SHOOTY unit) for the Trygons' job(melee). many people refused to use Tervigons. they just kept using Flyrants/warriors/genestealer/zoanthropes lists. sorry, that couldnt cut it.

40k is a game with HORRIBLE internal codex balance. if one wants to win, listbuilding is #1 priority, tons more important than tactics(sad but true; tactics are important, but the difference between a fluffy list and a competitive list within the same codex is so ABSURD that building a competitive list should be #1 priority for a competitive guy).

this means the style of play some call "cookie cutter netlists". sorry, but that is REQUIRED. you need to optimise your list to the best of your ability-playing 5th with "just 4-5" hive guard wont get you ANYWHERE when the opponent fields 9-12 vehicles.playing "some stealers, some hormagants and some tervigons/termagants" wont get you anywhere either. you need to go all the way.

like everyone, find the most undercosted and suitable for the environment unit for each slot and spam it again and again and again, no matter how boring/unfluffy it makes your list, or how much you dont like the model, or how it will make the list lack variety. thats the way "playing to win" works. sure. you can have some limits. dont play 9 hive guard, play 6 hive guard and 3 zoanthropes. dont play 3 tervigons, play 2 tervigons and a trygon.(note: this isnt necessarily directed to the OP, mostly to most bug players i see).

just like me with BT: i chose this army to play knightly cc. the FAQ/edition/environment nerfed our cc to oblivion and greatly boosted our shooting; i should ignore fluff and play shooty then, 3x5 tankhunter termies with two cyclones each(12 missiles/turn), and 6 multimelta attack bikes, 3 predators, and troops being lascannon/plasmagun 5-man bolter teams. its anti-fluff, its lame, i hate it, but its what works.

...but playing fluffy is playing to LOSE.

-Loki-
16-07-2012, 00:48
I went from struggling to draw against my friends mechanized Wych army in 5th to crushing it in 6th. At least with my army composition, nids got far stronger.

rocdocta
16-07-2012, 05:30
they are still viable for a fun game but dont ever expect to win vs a good oppo. As a nid player since 94 it makes me sad to shelve my fav army. yes i have massed hive guard, zaonthropes, whippers, lictors, tyrannofex, carnis, tervigons. shrikes etc, every model to fill every FOC. but no combo will save you from the better codexs (read all). I have tried to update my army and it does ok unless it has to split up and cap objectives. then it falls apart.

i want to love the book but it just hamstrings you with soo little reward for it.

PostinDirty
16-07-2012, 05:35
Look, they're okay in a friendly game IF and this is a very big IF your opponent is being nice to you. If he is trying to win, unless he or she is new to the game you will get beaten and beaten badly.

only if you're bad at the game

Xyxel
16-07-2012, 07:21
Tyranids have psykers and psychic defence. Necrons do not.
Read psychic powers again before whining. Tyranids are good in good hands.

Grocklock
16-07-2012, 11:25
It depends on the player Nids are competative its just not as simple as other armies, this past weekend I saw a tordiment winning army grey knights having there tin butts handed too them by both nids and deamons.

I know that when I face them with my orks i struggle as there is so meany targets and struggle to kill enough in combat.

Nids are a very good army.

Pyriel
16-07-2012, 11:48
... i dunno. for example, a couple of my friends used these armylists in 5th:

-9 hiveguard
-3 tervigons(one was HQ)
-3 termagant squads
-3 trygons
-some points were leftover and used whatever stuff.

i find it hard to beat them, actualy. 6 monstrous creatures with 6 wounds each, coupled with endless spawning of dozens of new termagants with furious charge/poisoned weapons/possible feel no pain (average +30 termagants/turn). hive guard beat the living **** out of my vehicles too. i even lose terminators to these termagants; they charge with f.charge/posion so they wound on 4+ with rerolls, a 10-squad easily forcing 7-8 saves right after shooting me full force, hence i lose 2-3 terminators everytime one tervigon spawns termagants. i can only beat them by using land raiders, but landraiders suck against everyone else(in 5th at least) , since most lists are build to produce an average of "4 penetrasting hits on land raiders per turn" to cope with 5th's vehicle-heavy metagame.

of course, we play with NOVA tournament format style terrain; full 25% of the board is completely covered by terrain, then we arrange it around the board, then we put an additional big huge LOS-blocking terrain right in the middle of the board. but it seems everyone should be doing that since it is widely considered the best terrain type for serious competition.i can see how playing with less terrain like many players might hinder nid-style armies.

Shadow Lord
16-07-2012, 11:51
I think Nids just got a major boost with 6th...not enough to be on top, but surely not bad either. Lots of psykers, psychic defence, fleet (nerfed, yea...but still good), you can overwatch as well, Genestealers lost the ability to charge on turn one, but the Broodlord is a monster that can easily challenge that nasty powerfist wielding sarge (that used to be hiding inside that squad), win the combat and then eat the rest of the squad...wound allocation thx to 'Look out, sir' will be a pain when facing Nids and multi-wound models in retinues and the FMC/MC's will eat vehicles for lunch, breakfast and dinner all day long...ofc, that's when they play a 'friendly' environment...in tournies they'll be facing all those other maxed-out armies and then they'll be struggling harder...but in a friendly game...seriously...they're tougher then my CSM (friendly list, no netlist).
Against other armies that have a far better codex then Nids, they will struggle more but still have a very decent fighting chance, but who doesn't struggle against IG/GK and SW? So, IMO, Nids are a good army to play in friendly games.

malisteen
16-07-2012, 14:31
Nids aren't great, but they're fine for friendlies, and some have even had success with them in competitive environments. But the current nid book does suffer from pretty egregious internal balance, even by 40k standards. And, as a book full of specialized units, rather than generalists like marines, it suffers more then most from game shifts encouraging completely different builds. Outflanking stealer hordes are out, FMCs and gargoyles are in. Fortunately hive guard and tervigons are still great, so if you fully adapted to the previous paradigm you aren't completely in the mud with this one.

If you're in this hobby long enough you see these kinds of shifts come and go. New hotness rolls in, game editions change the meta, new books nerf what was too good, buff the models no one was buying, and introduce the new new hotness, and so it goes. Codeces are on 5 to 10 year rotations, so you can end up in a funk for a long time. If you plan on sticking with the hobby long term, I recommend having two different armies so that if one goes into a funk you still have another to enjoy. This strategy works best if one of the armies is some brand of Marines, since they tend to be on shorter codex rotations.

Pyriel
16-07-2012, 15:39
...marines tend to be on shorter codex rotations?...
*mumbles, having played with the same 'dex for editions 4,5 and now 6*
jk, jk, i know what you mean. "typicaly" it is true.

in general, i agree with what you said. i would add that usualy, poor armies have bad internal balance-they can still duke it out with most competitive armies.they just have *fewer viable armylist builds* to do it. sadly, while 40k markets itself as a non-copetitive game, the balance is so bad that only when hardcore competitive players use the codexes that any proper game can be achieved. in "random SW against random nids", nids will have no chance, as the less viable choices are utter crap(not in SW's case, they're just "worse"). but in a game when a top tyranid player using a turbo-optimised list faces a top SW player using a turbo-optimised list, anything can happen.

Carlosophy
16-07-2012, 16:36
Viability
______________________________
Friendly Games


You see that line? Don't ever cross it! You should never worry about viability in Friendly Games, you should worry about whether choices are cool or not.
In the case of an extra-galactic planet-eating hivemind they are most definitely cool.

Scribe of Khorne
16-07-2012, 17:44
of course, we play with NOVA tournament format style terrain; full 25% of the board is completely covered by terrain, then we arrange it around the board, then we put an additional big huge LOS-blocking terrain right in the middle of the board. but it seems everyone should be doing that since it is widely considered the best terrain type for serious competition.i can see how playing with less terrain like many players might hinder nid-style armies.

So much emphasis on this! having 25% terrain, some LOS blocking, is HUGE for the balance of the game.

Vepr
16-07-2012, 19:02
I think nids are fine for friendly play. In fact they can be a lot of fun for friendly play. In terms of competitive play they are decidedly average and that is being kind.

Scribe of Khorne
16-07-2012, 20:10
I want to make 1 thing perfectly clear. Against certain meta driven (late 5th) lists, Nids had a huge uphill battle, especially if terrain was limited. I accept that as fact.

That said, your looking at VERY niche lists at that point, essentially "Spam as much long range S7+ AP3 if possible, weaponry as you can."

Against that type of list, yes Nids had a tough time. Against ANYTHING else, with sufficient terrain, I think they are a middle of the road book, and if you play a CC list yourself, nids will eat your face.

Pyriel
16-07-2012, 20:18
i'd strongly like SOMEBODY to give me evidence that Nids cant be viable.

actual evidence, regarding statistics of important tournaments, not "random FLGS games" or "imho". who cares what happens in the weird local meta of some FLGS! we're talking objectively here, as in, globaly. show me win percentages in large tournaments where Tyranids had a win percenage of half the top army. you are talking about "viability of attempt to win", i.e. competitiveness, so you should understand that this is serious business that has nothing to do with fluff/fun/opinion, only with "the thrill of the competition".

show me the evidence. my data shows that the difference in win percentage is rather small, between Tyranids(40-45% win percentage) and Grey Knights(60-65% win percentage) for example. you cant call a mere -20% against the top codex "lack of viability". uphill battle? sure. but not viable for friendly play?... you do realise that if one brings a friendly/fluffy vanilla marines list and a nid player brings a half-decent semi-competitive list, the vanilla player will get OBLITERATED?

madival
16-07-2012, 20:53
Nids are like eldar. I have seen eldar get torn to shreds at the drop of a hat. I have also seen them win tournaments. You just have to get the feel. Often I see people play something and do bad and instantly blame the army. Homogants can work and I have seen them do so, but such things are incredibly finesse oriented. Hell, footdar can be competetive, nids can at least be friendly.

rocdocta
17-07-2012, 00:11
Tyranids have psykers and psychic defence. Necrons do not.
Read psychic powers again before whining. Tyranids are good in good hands.

necrons can get allys... and psychic powers arent that bad in 6th.

Vepr
17-07-2012, 00:26
Really is there any army that does not work for "friendly" play? I know some people have different ideas of what constitutes friendly play but in general all the armies are fine if the other person is not list tailoring or bringing tournament lists to casual games. I can see the argument against nids in tournaments but for friendly games where it is about narrative and just having fun all armies work including Forge World Death Korps etc.

Bonzai
17-07-2012, 03:25
i'd strongly like SOMEBODY to give me evidence that Nids cant be viable.

actual evidence, regarding statistics of important tournaments, not "random FLGS games" or "imho". who cares what happens in the weird local meta of some FLGS! we're talking objectively here, as in, globaly. show me win percentages in large tournaments where Tyranids had a win percenage of half the top army. you are talking about "viability of attempt to win", i.e. competitiveness, so you should understand that this is serious business that has nothing to do with fluff/fun/opinion, only with "the thrill of the competition".

show me the evidence. my data shows that the difference in win percentage is rather small, between Tyranids(40-45% win percentage) and Grey Knights(60-65% win percentage) for example. you cant call a mere -20% against the top codex "lack of viability". uphill battle? sure. but not viable for friendly play?... you do realise that if one brings a friendly/fluffy vanilla marines list and a nid player brings a half-decent semi-competitive list, the vanilla player will get OBLITERATED?

It's too early for 6th edition stats. The last major tournament that I saw stats for was Adepticon. There were exactly 0 Nid entrants ( Sister's being the only other non-represented army). That being said, it's hard to say how Nids are effected so far. A major hit was not being able to assault the turn you come out of reserve (IE... Genestealers). The changes to Rage helped somewhat, but the changes to fleet and furious charge was a little bit of a setback. The only real flyer of note is the Hive Tyrant. The harpy has no non-template weapons, so it can't be used as an anti-flyer unit. Vehicles were nerfed, and shooting is much more vicious. Cover and FNP saves have lessened to a 5 up, but are easier to get now. It is a mixed bag all over. I think it's probably helped a little, but not enough to climb out of the hole they were in.

On a positive note, with the changes to perfered enemy, my shooty nid list got interesting. LOL

rocdocta
17-07-2012, 03:43
I was really excited about having a flying TMC circus until i realised that the moment they take to the air they will receive a high strength no armour save wound if they get hit (and not even wounded) by a weapon...any weapon including a las pistol.

Vs flier spam i cant see much of a defence. In 5th my main problems were JAWWS and heavy weapons picking off my TMC synape. extra cover is nice but its still only a 5+ save. i pray for night fighting for the extra cover save.

On a plus no more fearless wounds has helped us a lot. hull points is a big plus too without a penalty for us.

But bad unit rules have carried over (oh lictor when will i see you on the table again?!) i tried my stealers and even hugging cover none of them won a combat after being shot on the move up, snap fired with 3 flamers on the charge and then striking last in cover. 12 stealers and a broodlord should be able to engage and wipe out an IG vet unit even in cover on an objective... nope.

-Loki-
17-07-2012, 03:55
Flying monstrous creatures getting grounded really isn't the problem it seems to be. You can move using glide as you set your assault up, and by the time the MC swoops, target saturation is a big enough issue that your opponent has really tough choices. You don't just send them in solo, just like you don't just send any Tyranid unit in solo.

Xerkics
17-07-2012, 03:57
I think the way to avoid a grounding hit is present enough threats to enemy from other units that he doesnt have time to shoot your flying tyrant with everything for example. Also biomancy t9 tyrant can make shooting it very unappealing on the offchance that he fails grounding test.

insectum7
17-07-2012, 05:50
There's a Tyranid player at my local store who I routinely see mopping up the competition.

Carlosophy
17-07-2012, 07:43
There's a Tyranid player at my local store who I routinely see mopping up the competition.

Does he pick up his opponents casualties and shove them in his mouth going omnomnom like the cookie monster?

-Loki-
17-07-2012, 08:38
A GW manager did that to one of my brothers models once. If got soaked in disinfectant when we got home.

insectum7
17-07-2012, 08:54
Does he pick up his opponents casualties and shove them in his mouth going omnomnom like the cookie monster?

Not even that. He's a pretty solid and respectable fellow actually. But he brings a list with lots of big, nasty models.