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Bingo the Fun Monkey
15-07-2012, 10:29
Whilst in a paint session with my Bretonnian adversary I was going on about the cool factor of taking an army of Monsters from the Storm of Magic book. It is my opinion that an army of monsters, lacking command groups, deliberate internal synergy and the bonuses of rank and file, would make an army made purely of monsters very difficult to win within the 8th edition paradigm, despite their increased usefulness (or just emphasis) in game. One of the ideas I had to counter this was to allow monsters that have a Wizard Level to take a single magic item from the common magic item list up to 25 points for each level (therefore a level 4 could take a single 100 point item); furthermore the item type cannot already be possessed by the model (so a Truthsayer cannot take another Talisman).

My friend immediately stated that a ward save on a dragon would be too much. That the monster is too strong to have a ward save. The points value of a ward save item in the common magic list, to him is assigned its point value for a model with 2-4 wounds, not 6. Here is the thing though: Heroic Killing Blow, coupled with a lack of a standard or rank bonus, or any access to Stubborn or Steadfast (unless you take a unit of 40 Chaos Warhounds 8 deep...and that's only for that unit), makes the dragon pretty crappy in combat. It's facilities as a mage are not justified for the raw stat power that is represented in its profile and points cost.

What are your thoughts?

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 12:42
An emperor dragon.. yes, I think a 4+ ward on that ws9 str9 t9 w9 a8 beastie is a bit much. However if worried about the bretonnian Hkb lord, why not give the beastie an ASF sword? He ought to rip that bretonnian lord to little shreds before it gets to fight.

Urgat
15-07-2012, 14:03
And it's not like everybody's running around with HKB in the first place. Everything should have a weakness, and that's a very scarce one. As for steadfast, ramming two or three monsters into any unit should deal with this in a couple turns maximum.

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 14:04
And it's not like everybody's running around with HKB in the first place.

except bretonnian lords

Urgat
15-07-2012, 14:09
except bretonnian lords

Even in Bretonnian armies, you won't find a Bretonnian lord in every unit. Omg, the dragon is vulnerable to one model in the whole game. Please.

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 14:12
Even in Bretonnian armies, you won't find a Bretonnian lord in every unit. Omg, the dragon is vulnerable to one model in the whole game. Please.

well, seeing he talked the idea over in a painting session with his bretonnian adversary and Hkb came up as one of his concerns, I'm assuming its one of his most common opponents, and the hearthwood lance + virtue of heroism combo is definately quite nasty to a dragon.

Urgat
15-07-2012, 14:44
There's other monsters that have wards or regen that he can put against said lord, though.

Juicy21
15-07-2012, 15:30
still.. if that lord cant roll his 6 he is deadmeat to that dragon.. not every one is lucky with those sixes.. and if he does.. come on he is ment for that only purpose he should be able to kill that dragon because he is build to do it.. that lord with an heroic killing build settup. is doing on a average 2/3 wounds on a rank and file combat so.... My humble opinion is that a wardsave of anykind on a dragon is a bit to mutch he has already an armour save + high ws+ high toughness.. that should be enough.

hashrat
15-07-2012, 15:38
Pretty sure Dragons once had an invulnrable save, back then it was pretty powerfull as innacurate artillery would mean you didn't land every cannon shell and it may be saved none-the-less when you did hit.
Now you cannot miss, bases are huge and it kills rider and dragon as they did away with the 1-4/5-6 for Cannons. I do not see how a ward on a Dragon can possibly be "overpowered" in 8th edition.

Gaargod
15-07-2012, 15:43
4++ versus ranged attacks... perhaps.

Seriously though, if your Emperor Dragon gets ganked by a HKB Bret Lord, that's a) probably your own fault for going into combat with one of the few models in the game which can actually do that and b) exactly what the Lord is built for. That's like complaining your unit of archers got beaten in combat by Chaos Knights. It just makes no sense.

Ultimate Life Form
15-07-2012, 18:51
Well, a 4+ Ward effectively means doubling its wounds - or considerably more if a few of those D6 cannonballs bounce off harmlessly.

The problem is it's simply imbalanced; some armies like Dwarves will still have no trouble blasting it to pieces while other armies like Vampire Counts have no hopes of ever beating this thing. The game simply isn't meant for this. Why not make a few playtesting games to see if it really needs a ward? Tinkering around with the rules is not my cup of tea, but since the entire 'army' would be illegal to begin with I wouldn't care anyway. Might be fun to try it once but I can see no lasting appeal.

snyggejygge
15-07-2012, 20:20
Pretty sure Dragons once had an invulnrable save, back then it was pretty powerfull as innacurate artillery would mean you didn't land every cannon shell and it may be saved none-the-less when you did hit.
Now you cannot miss, bases are huge and it kills rider and dragon as they did away with the 1-4/5-6 for Cannons. I do not see how a ward on a Dragon can possibly be "overpowered" in 8th edition.

That invulnerable save only worked vs attacks that allowed an armoursave though, so a cannon would still have worked without allowing a save.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
15-07-2012, 22:16
In truth the Ward Save wasn't what I wanted throw on the dragon. My friend mentioned the ward save as his first concern...and only on a dragon. I had in mind the Other Trickster's Shard to mess with his Blessing save.

Gaarod: I wasn't complaining about anything, let alone my opponent or his HKB Lord. We've been fighting battles for 15 years and understand complaining is only for people from the internet and people who refuse to adapt to change. Arguing or contesting a point is not complaining. But: you are totally right. If the HKB Lord ends up in combat with an emperor dragon...well...it'd be my fault. Here's the thing, though: we are both very narrative driven generals. In our normal fights, if my Warboss isn't in a challenge with his Lord at some point, no matter who wins the game is a moral defeat (although his general cuts mine down every time...given that mine is meant to lead and his is meant to kill).

We'll test this out sometime this winter (when my SoM Monster collection will be more complete)

ULF: a 4+ ward increases the wounds effectively by 50%, not 100%, but I will conceded it is a significant chunk. In my opinion it would only be an "illegal" list if I tried to solicit games with strangers at the FLGS with this list and homebrew mods.

This is a man-cave game. I got the idea from my opponent after this one battle where his general took his grail knight companions and left the battleline to go and engage these two giants I put on the table as per an agreement that he could also place Gotrek and Felix on the table. Gotrek killed one of the giants with ease and went on to break a horde of Trolls. His general killed the other giant...there must have been something about the giant getting cloven in twain that made my opponent tell me that he wants more monsters to slay with his HKB. Why not give him an army of big multi-wound monsters to be cut down?

Anyway, the general consensus of the feedback is that the Ward save is indeed too much.

What about other magic items?

Actually, ULF's post has made me wonder: do people find homebrews to be distasteful? Would you refuse to play anything that isn't "official" in a casual setting?

Urgat
15-07-2012, 22:28
What about other magic items?

Actually, ULF's post has made me wonder: do people find homebrews to be distasteful? Would you refuse to play anything that isn't "official" in a casual setting?
I use houserules all the time (for objectives and scenarios mostly), so no. Actually, one of my most memorable battles was something a bit like you, I was leading an army entirely made of monsters against my friend's chaos warriors, I had to destroy a few buildings to win. It was way before SoM though.
As for magic items... well, I just find it odd for monsters to use magic items.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
15-07-2012, 22:42
As for magic items... well, I just find it odd for monsters to use magic items.

Yes. However, most of the magic users in SoM have hands with thumbs (exception being the Lammasu). Furthermore, dragons and monsters with lairs have been cheerfully collecting magic items brought to them by glory hungry fame seekers over the years. A dragon with mage-sight would see the value in taking up that magical doohickey that some Ogre Tyrant dropped. This is just imHo.

Ratarsed
15-07-2012, 23:25
I would play the game just as is. Monsters with magic items feels wrong to me. Even intelligent, speaking, magic using dragons don't use magic items IMO (although they may well horde them in their nest)
As for heroic killing blow. It had better work otherwise the Bretonian lord is done for. Besides what is more cinematic than Bretonnian lord "Georges" slaying a dragon!

Maoriboy007
15-07-2012, 23:30
Play killing Blow as a multi wound attack 2D3 or 2D6 wounds.

The bearded one
15-07-2012, 23:30
Besides what is more cinematic than Bretonnian lord "Georges" slaying a dragon!

Lord "Georges" being eaten by one

Sh4d0w
16-07-2012, 14:27
Im sorry but this is one of the stupider things I've seen in a while. Yes I too have had thoughts about how to improve monster survivability. At the moment though a 4+ ward is far too powerful, if a dragon gets into combat it will still wreck units, if you are stupid enough to run it into a unit of 100 night goblins it deserves to remain there for the rest of the game.

Concerning invulnerability to HKB on the emperor dragon, this is unfair on your mate. He plays bretonnia for god sake haha. It would be like him saying all my knights now get to re-roll their armour saves just to remove a weakness. May I ask you what army you play? Surely you can either shoot the lord/position yourself away from him or tie him up with a unit.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
16-07-2012, 22:08
It sure was my hope to get castigated for sharing a discussionI had with a friend, asking the public its opinion, and trying to reach a consensus. Now I'm being called an idiot...for THINKING something.

It's not like I am demanding MY emperor dragon have a 4+ ward save. You can call m selfish if you want for the magic items allowance to magic using Monsters in a Monster Army, but not for demanding a 4+ ward save (because I didn't demand it, I had other sneaky plans like, as I said in previous posts, the Other Trickster's Shard to give him Blessing headaches). My friend brought it up as his first concern and, naturally, friends sometimes disagree. Gentlemen such as The Bearded One and ULF conveyed their concerns and criticism without malice and with reserved judgement. You're just fishing to type-cast me as some powergaming ****** without contributing anything to the discussion.

But you're right. I am a power gamer that imposes my reality on my games or else I throw a tantrum and throw my $50 dollar models against the wall. I play vanilla Orcs and Goblins because all the top tournament players had internet lists that told me that blocks of vanilla Orcs supported by snotlings and Orc Arrer Boyz is the way to win in 8th edition. Only they don't. So I amended the rules make all their stats 10, with 1+ armor and 2+ ward saves and no animosity. Oh and everything is 5 points cheaper. And my giants are free. And my trolls aren't stupid because my slave Dwarf Runesmith inscribed the Rune of Intellect on their stony hides. Oh and I also have auto-irresistible-cast-sans-miscast Dwellers, Purple Sun and Mindrazor each time I fart because, you know, I'm Gork (or Mork). Now OnG are balanced with those changes. I win. Yay! I am absolved of my sins and have actualized my immortal Self.



At it's core, I felt that an army of MONSTERS would struggle against a standard army because of the lack of rank and file. Without tinkering with core rules such as how much CR is gained from flanks, rears or charging, I thought magic items would make the battle more interesting. Naturally, this is only assuming that Monsters do need help. When we do play this game I'll do it without magic items first. I suspect that a Ward on a Dragon won't stop it from losing combat and being run down if unsupported.

By the by, I have suggested that his whole army should have Devastating Charge without any points increase to see if it'd have more success breaking units on the charge. Like the Monster Army, we might test this out, too, because neither of us care much for winning (in over 100 games through 3 editions, we're pretty evenly matched) and aren't afraid to try new things.

/nerdrage sorry

The bearded one
16-07-2012, 23:02
Gentlemen such as The Bearded One and ULF conveyed their concerns and criticism without malice and with reserved judgement.

145482

I don't think there's anything daft with the idea of treasure-hording monsters actually using some of it. An army of monster created from the storm of magic book is lacking in proper ranked units that are capable of holding the line anyway and such an army seems a 'for fun' thing anyway.

Bloodedsoul
17-07-2012, 01:45
Let us know how it turns out, I think it sounds like fun and might see if any one at the local shop wants to give it a shot

Sh4d0w
17-07-2012, 03:08
It sure was my hope to get castigated for sharing a discussionI had with a friend, asking the public its opinion, and trying to reach a consensus. Now I'm being called an idiot...for THINKING something.

It's not like I am demanding MY emperor dragon have a 4+ ward save. You can call m selfish if you want for the magic items allowance to magic using Monsters in a Monster Army, but not for demanding a 4+ ward save (because I didn't demand it, I had other sneaky plans like, as I said in previous posts, the Other Trickster's Shard to give him Blessing headaches). My friend brought it up as his first concern and, naturally, friends sometimes disagree. Gentlemen such as The Bearded One and ULF conveyed their concerns and criticism without malice and with reserved judgement. You're just fishing to type-cast me as some powergaming ****** without contributing anything to the discussion.

But you're right. I am a power gamer that imposes my reality on my games or else I throw a tantrum and throw my $50 dollar models against the wall. I play vanilla Orcs and Goblins because all the top tournament players had internet lists that told me that blocks of vanilla Orcs supported by snotlings and Orc Arrer Boyz is the way to win in 8th edition. Only they don't. So I amended the rules make all their stats 10, with 1+ armor and 2+ ward saves and no animosity. Oh and everything is 5 points cheaper. And my giants are free. And my trolls aren't stupid because my slave Dwarf Runesmith inscribed the Rune of Intellect on their stony hides. Oh and I also have auto-irresistible-cast-sans-miscast Dwellers, Purple Sun and Mindrazor each time I fart because, you know, I'm Gork (or Mork). Now OnG are balanced with those changes. I win. Yay! I am absolved of my sins and have actualized my immortal Self.



At it's core, I felt that an army of MONSTERS would struggle against a standard army because of the lack of rank and file. Without tinkering with core rules such as how much CR is gained from flanks, rears or charging, I thought magic items would make the battle more interesting. Naturally, this is only assuming that Monsters do need help. When we do play this game I'll do it without magic items first. I suspect that a Ward on a Dragon won't stop it from losing combat and being run down if unsupported.

By the by, I have suggested that his whole army should have Devastating Charge without any points increase to see if it'd have more success breaking units on the charge. Like the Monster Army, we might test this out, too, because neither of us care much for winning (in over 100 games through 3 editions, we're pretty evenly matched) and aren't afraid to try new things.

/nerdrage sorry

woah haha, I don't see where I called you an idiot. I was merely pointing out that removing a weakness of something just imbalances the game and that surely you can avoid the HKB guy.

Also imho a monster should be able to carry a magic ring/pendant or something like that but not weapons.

Skopey
17-07-2012, 10:30
Well i dont think you need to assume the dragon is 'using' a particular magic item. Rather that the dragon has the same particular ability as the magic item. I wouldnt mind so much if playing against a dragon using the abilities tbh. Dragons are supposed to be Mystical, powerful creatures so why not i say. If 4+ ward seems to powerful go for something similar to the Blessing. 6+ vs normal attacks, 5+vs magic and 4+ vs attacks S7+ perhaps. At the end of the day it will be an unusual game that is gonna get house ruled whatever way you play so why not add your own designed rules for the game. So long as your opponent is happy with it. I mean maybe add a rule for him that he gets double XP for every monster slain or something.

Antipathy
17-07-2012, 14:01
@ Bingo, of course it's 100% more wounds. You have a 50% chance to save a wound. Put into perspective, that is 1 wound taken for every 2 wounds caused. Hence, you essentially need to double the amount of wounds caused.

Why not use a Poison Emperor Dragon? Regrowth, Lifebloom, Regeneration and Immunity to Miscast enough to keep him alive? Or a Carmine Emperor Dragon to shoot Cannonballs into him, or a Warpfire Dragon to shoot Stone Thrower Templates into the enemy unit.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
17-07-2012, 20:36
Ok, you're right. The way I was looking at it was that if a normal dragon took 6 wounds, it would have 3 remaining, effectively giving it 9 wounds and therefore 50% more. Flawed logic in a vacuum :D.

GrandmasterWang
18-07-2012, 07:56
Seconding the 4+ ward = double wounds correction. Its just too much. Why not a 6+ ward?

Anyway, I for one like your style and we house rule with my friends in home/casual games all the time throwing in random beasties and all kinds of trippy stuff (last night we played with a mid board christmas tree granting regrowth on a roll of 6 within 2 inches). Seriously dont think the monsters will need that much of a buff as someone who has effectively played what you are going to, just not with bretonians or an emperor dragon. I say give him and any other "boss" monster a 6+ ward save so they hav a small suspense filled chance to stop a hkb which shouldnt crop up anyway. The thing is that with the monster army you can dominate the movement phase with the march and turn so steadfast is overated and wont last long with a few beasts in there anyway

Ratarsed
18-07-2012, 23:38
I'm pretty sure a 4+ ward =/= 100% more wounds. I'm not that hot on probabilities but I bet there is a significant difference between 10 wounds and a 4+ ward and 20 wounds. Not sure what that might be however.

Skopey
19-07-2012, 09:09
not with my dice it isn't :D

Lord Zarkov
19-07-2012, 12:30
I'm pretty sure a 4+ ward =/= 100% more wounds. I'm not that hot on probabilities but I bet there is a significant difference between 10 wounds and a 4+ ward and 20 wounds. Not sure what that might be however.

The mean number of wounds to kill is the same (once the armour save is accounted for), but the distribution and standard deviation is different.

So a 20 wound monster would always take 20 wounds to kill, with a zero s.d.; but a 10 wound monster with a 4+ ward could take any number greater than or equal to 10, depending on how lucky they player is. So could be 10, could be 100, but in an infinite number of games the average would tend to 20.

Ratarsed
19-07-2012, 14:46
And the more wounds the less likely luck will come into play. Failing 3 out of 3 ward saves is not that unlikely. Failing 10 out of 10 is very unlikely.
Having thought about it more, I suppose if you pick the magic items carefuly they would not be out of place. Something like the other tricksters shard for instance could be caught up in the monsters fur/scales without it actively knowing it was there.
I'd still try out the first game as is, just to see how it goes. Often stuff you don't forsee can suprise you and significantly effect the game.