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Charistoph
16-07-2012, 18:43
I'm slowly working on a little custom codex here, and I have a question for you.

How much volume of fire is good at a minimum?

How much is too much at a maximum?

Or should it be based how many Wounds per Round the unit can provide vs T4?

Obviously, there are different factors involved in this scale, Special/Heavy Weapons, Charging, etc, but I would like your input on this.

Should it based on how much a SM squad can deal (both Min and Max) averaged with a SOB/CMS/Guant/DE squad?

Siphen
16-07-2012, 19:33
I hate to say it, but there are way too many variables to consider...
- How many points per model are we talking? A 30 point model will hopefully have more damage output than a standard marine.
- What purpose does the unit/model serve? If it's anti-infantry, then pumping out a ton of wounds (at a poor AP or range) is fine. Anti-tank, maybe the equivalent of a few meltaguns or chainfists is all the damage output they need. If they're supposed to be tarpits, then horrible damage output and incredible survivability is fine.
- How fast are they? Can they take good transports? You can make an incredibly powerful short-ranged unit if they're slow.
- Any important special rules?
- Any particular stats that make them stand out? A few strength 4 attacks/shots seems to be the norm but if you're delivering the damage from 48" away or at Initiative 6 (just for example), the "norm" might be a bit much.

This is definitely not an official rule, but I believe a balanced squad should be able to kill roughly 1/3 of its points value in a phase and only lose about 1/3 of its models to an equivalently costed unit. If your 200 point unit can wipe out 10 tactical marines in one round of shooting, they might be too good. Likewise, if your 200 point unit is completely annihilated by 20 gaunts, they might be a little weak.

Charistoph
16-07-2012, 20:32
Let's take it from a basic Troop standpoint, not TDAs, no Ravenwing, etc. Just basic Troops.

My concern is that I'm looking at a unit that will be 3-5 models of grounded (no Jump/Jet Pack) Tau Crisis Suit squads armed with Boltguns. They will also be holding the Troop slot with 5-25 Guardsmen stat models (with possible Carapace upgrade) armed with either Witchhunter Helguns (24" S:3 AP:5 RF) or Kroot guns. I'm wondering if that will be enough fire power if they really don't have anything special in CC and just as limited in Special/Heavy weapon access as a Guard Infantry/Marine Tac squad.

ChaplainCharlie
16-07-2012, 22:05
Well, look at existing codexes and work it out from there. Most armies are either shooty or not so shooty. Some are half way. If your army is going to be very shooty, look at Tau or IG codexes (as you already have) and then adjust the points and rates of fire respectively. The staple of cheap and cheerful Anti-Infantry firepower is the Guardsman with Rapid Fire S3 AP - shots at BS3 and costing 5pts. If it has better armor/BS/range/strength or AP, then it should cost more.

Chem-Dog
16-07-2012, 22:39
Whatever your criteria, don't make Marines your determiner, it'll skew the whole deal.

Charistoph
16-07-2012, 23:23
Whatever your criteria, don't make Marines your determiner, it'll skew the whole deal.

Considering how many codecies are based on Marines, why not?

This also begs the question, what should be the standard against what?

Chem-Dog
16-07-2012, 23:57
Considering how many codecies are based on Marines, why not?

Because of the number of Codexes that aren't based on Marines. It's all well and good fixing a unit/army to work fairly well against Marines and their ilk but in doing so you're flipping a bird to every Eldar, Dark Eldar, Ork, Tyranid, IG, Daemon, Necron and Tau player. Blanket "Hurts T4 easily" weapons with AP "Marine Killer" will screw most of the other listed forces right into the ground for daring to be what they are, not Marines.


This also begs the question, what should be the standard against what?

Why have a standard at all? You already have a very set track on which to place your model and weapon stats on each point on the scale is increasingly powerful has more consequence on the game as a whole, there are enough examples across the board without needing to compare to what type of unit you want to kill with any deal of reliability.
Be creative, invent things that have phenomenal penetrating power but lousy strength (S2 Armourbane!!!!), can kick out a gazillion shots but can't be relied upon to penetrate more than three sheets of paper (Assault 10 S1 Ap- Rending) or use the target's stats against them (Roll to wound Vs Target's Armour/Ld/Attacks whatever) but don't just decide Unit X should be able to kill <value> Marines in any given turn.
40K is Marine-centric enough as it is and it's OK to struggle against an army.