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CaliforniaGamer
16-07-2012, 21:36
Im now 100% convinced the K'daii Destroyer is the most OTT monster in game barring character/SC shenanigans. Likely the best "all comers" rare choice period.

Are more people in other gaming groups finding they would rather face hydras/aboms any day of the week over the KD?

Im actually slowly being drawn to the conclusion it's best singular model for its points in WFB (including even the FW supplements coming out) beating out the Masque/Kairos/Skulltaker baffoonery, which is saying alot.

WTH was FW thinking with guy??

Urgat
16-07-2012, 21:47
Ah, man, you're late, we've already had two topics that turned into a destroyer hate-fest :p
For the record, I agree with you, but anything it took to make it ok was to include a rule mentionning that it could still be wounded on 6s. The absurd thing is that they obviously realized something was wrong because they faqued it (at first I was happy, because I didn't think about what it meant, I be the fool :p), but it feels like they just made it worse for higher S units while changing virtually nothing for lower strenght units. And yet everybody kindda agrees that they would still take it even if they were wounded on 6s.

Rosstifer
16-07-2012, 22:15
Last time I played one I put a disc Hero with a 2+ Flaming Ward into it and held it in place till I could get Mindrazored Chaos Knights in the flank (Magical Attacks so wounded it on 2's) so I really think that if your army has the option go for a mounted Character with a Dragonhelm or a Dragonbane Gem and roadblock it. Most DE, HE, WoC and Lizardmen tournament lists should have a character with a 2+ flaming ward anyway, so you don't have to tailor (Disc Riders, Dark Peg Riders, anything in Dragon Armour, Scar Vets etc)

Beastmen can deal with it alright if your Blackened Plate character is in the unit it goes for, not too hard to do with Shadow magic shenanigans or similar.

However I do agree it's insane for it's point cost. Better than a Greater Daemon for almost half the cost....

Confessor_Atol
16-07-2012, 22:18
I saw one at a tourney I went to this weekend, but didn't end up playing against it. What's so bad about it?

Rosstifer
16-07-2012, 22:24
It's WS5 S7 T6 W6 I5 has 6 attacks with Frenzy that gives it D3 more, has a 4+ Ward/2+ Ward vs Flaming, M9 so it's super fast, is Unbreakable, Unstable, Inflicts S4 Flaming hits on every model in base contact at the start of combat, it's only downside is that it has to take a Toughness test each turn or suffer (a?) Wound(s?).

It just does everything amazingly and only costs a little over 300pts.

Confessor_Atol
16-07-2012, 22:33
That's gnarly. Does the toughness test auto-fail on a 6?

CaliforniaGamer
16-07-2012, 22:35
Ah, man, you're late, we've already had two topics that turned into a destroyer hate-fest :p


Im not trying to hate on the KD at all. Just pointing out it is singlehandily going to change the metagame (more than any previous single model IMO) as more and more people finish their CD armies. Dragonbane gem and even the Dhelm will both be near auto-include items due to KD shenanigans to come.

Flaming banners may actually die off as a smart CD will hold the KD in deployment to match up against the Flaming banner unit for the autowin (assuming you can squeeze enough trash drops of hobgobs into the CD list).

You have such a limited amount of ways to deal with it due to the super high Ini (given every other monster has LOW ini, this is whacked) making it near immune to Pit/PurpleSun, high strength=immunity to Dwellers and relatively solid LD making it somewhat immune to going stupid from Final Transmute. Lucky cannon balls, stone throwers and poison being the best ways (skink lists having the easiest time because they ignore the re-roll successful wound rule).

One thing is for certain, I will never complain about the hydra again. Hydra is perfectly beatable, even for its point cost compared the KD.

The bearded one
16-07-2012, 22:39
I virtually always have a dragonhelm in my list anyway, so at least I've got something to hold it up with, but it is just mean for its pointcosts. I'll be relying on skinks to bring that succer down to size, and hoping for failed toughness tests (it loses D3 wounds then).

Lord Inquisitor
16-07-2012, 22:49
Dragonhelm is good, providing the Destroyer player doesn't know about it or isn't able to avoid it. Shadow magic will put it down hard but that's pretty much its only weakness.

It is an irritating little proposition to deal with. I agree - I think it is the best point/model monster in the game, if only because facing one makes me think "whoa, this thing makes Abominations seem 'not that bad'".

Very much feels like a last-minute addition to the CD list and one that wasn't well thought through.

Urgat
16-07-2012, 23:09
It's WS5 S7 T6 W6 I5 has 6 attacks with Frenzy that gives it D3 more, has a 4+ Ward/2+ Ward vs Flaming, M9 so it's super fast, is Unbreakable, Unstable, Inflicts S4 Flaming hits on every model in base contact at the start of combat, it's only downside is that it has to take a Toughness test each turn or suffer (a?) Wound(s?).

It just does everything amazingly and only costs a little over 300pts.

You forgot the best part, the malus to strength which means that nothing under S5 can wound it. (or well, now it has 1 out of 60 chances or something iirc).


Im not trying to hate on the KD at all.
I know, I was just saying. Two topics did cover it not long ago.

You have such a limited amount of ways to deal with it due to the super high Ini (given every other monster has LOW ini, this is whacked)
And this is where FW screwed up. If we put cannons aside, currently, monsters have two weaknesses: low enough so they don't just murder everything in a blaze of fury (and ignore the anti-I spells), and an inherent weakness to very numerous attacks, which means that even against the rabble, if there's too many, some wounds might get through. For all intent and purpose, FW has made their precious monster immune to both. Besides its own T test, it has pretty much no weakness, in fact. It's super fast, it's super hitty, it's super tough. Instability? Like it's going to lose a fight with the aura, all the attacks, the stomp and basically no wounds back from most enemies :/
Anyway, little point in going over that again, sorry for my rambling.

The bearded one
16-07-2012, 23:10
You forgot the best part, the malus to strengh which means that nothing under S5 can wound it.

It's FAQ'ed. Now non-magical attacks have to reroll to wound.


Very much feels like a last-minute addition to the CD list and one that wasn't well thought through.

Perhaps forgeworld took a page from GWs book, with this being forgeworld's version of the tervigon and thunderwolves; must-have models that aren't released untill a few years later.

Urgat
16-07-2012, 23:21
It's FAQ'ed. Now non-magical attacks have to reroll to wound.

Yeah I know, though I didn't remember what it was that was changed. It's not much better now... Take my black orcs, they had a chance to maybe wound it with S7 on the first turn... ah, you wish! now they have to reroll to wound. The faq is just as stupid as the original rule.

The bearded one
16-07-2012, 23:26
Your black orcs are off 1/18th worse than previously.

Lord Inquisitor
16-07-2012, 23:33
Perhaps forgeworld took a page from GWs book, with this being forgeworld's version of the tervigon and thunderwolves; must-have models that aren't released untill a few years later.

Indeed, this seems to be a common pattern. It feels like "hey, we made a Canis Wolfborn/Valkyrie/K'Daai Fireborn model, why don't we throw some generic thunderwolves/Vendettas/Destroyer/Hellpit Abomination in there, that might be cool to make at some later date!" "Uh, we don't have time to playtest or indeed even read over the rules and see if they make sense before our deadline in... 30 minutes." "Ah, sure, we can fit one more unit in there, playtesting's for sissies anyway!"

Rockgut
16-07-2012, 23:43
Cannons work, but because of it's speed, you will probably only get 1 round of shooting and it has the 4+ ward. Shadow is the way to go if you have it. Cast Withering and that toughness test it has to take becomes precarious.

Shandowner
17-07-2012, 00:00
There is no destroying it Dan and Eoin..... mwahahaa

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 00:16
You are obviously not a very good player if you can't work out how to deal with it.

CD are balanced out by the cost of their units and lack of choice. There is little evidence to suggest a CD with a KD is an overpowered army.

If you took the KD away from the CD then you will make them almost bottom of the pile.

Lord Inquisitor
17-07-2012, 00:22
There is no destroying it Dan and Eoin..... mwahahaa

One of these days it'll get what's coming to it, mark my words.

tvandyke
17-07-2012, 00:31
You are obviously not a very good player if you can't work out how to deal with it.

CD are balanced out by the cost of their units and lack of choice. There is little evidence to suggest a CD with a KD is an overpowered army.

If you took the KD away from the CD then you will make them almost bottom of the pile.

At the SAWS Challenge (two day tourney in California, about 80 players) in May, there were 3 of us using Chaos dwarfs and we all had the Destroyer. Our combine won/loss record was 7 wins, 7 losses, 1 tie. At the Quake City Rumble a few weeks ago (another 2 day tournament here in California with about 110 players), the three of us had a combined record 6 wins, 7 losses, 2 ties. Again, we all had the Destroyer. In my case, I went 1 win, 3 losses, 1 tie. It was the first tournament I've ever played in where I haven't won at least 2 games. In fact, I've been playing in tournaments since 1996 (easily over 100 tourneys) and I almost always win at least 3 games. My Destroyer died in all 5 games. If fact, he died by the end of turn 3 in every game without actually taking anything out before he died. Maybe I was just way to aggressive with him but here's how he died in every game.

Game 1, I charged a unit of Savage Orcs in hoard formation. This unit contained a War Boss and Big Boss. He had a hell of a time causing wounds but he had a 5+ ward on the unit and he kept making them. I lost the first round of combat (I whiffed badly) by 1, lost my frenzy and he popped after 4 rounds of combat. I felt desperate to charge something quickly in this game because he had a Savage Orc War Boss running around on a pig with the Dragon Helm.

Game 2, I played against Lizards. He took 3 wounds from skinks with blowpipes (poison) in the first turn. I charged a unit of Skinks with Krox (which I later found I couldn't thunderstomp because of the Krox). I was eating the unit, he counter charged with a steg, which I should have killed but left one wound on it. In my next turn, I took a Toughness test, failed and promptly rolled a 5 (3 more wounds), pop!!! Tournament was off to a great start.

Game 3, I played against Chaos Warriors. He had a unit of tzeentch chosen that managed to roll 11 on the eye of god. I think he was able to adjust it because he got the 3+ Ward with Stubborn result. Anyway, on my 2nd turn I charged this unit with the Destroyer. I figured I'd just hold it up all game. As it turned out, he was failing quite a few ward saves and I had the unit down to half it's size in two rounds of combat. Then he got off Mindrazer. He caused 12 wounds in the first round with it on. Amazingly and to his astonishment, I saved 11 of them. Next round (mindrazer still active), he did 10 wounds and I only saved 5 of them. Dead Destroyer.

Game 4, Beastmen (this is the only game I won). My Destroyer got charged by a big unit of Minotaurs, his Minotaur Lord and a big unit of Beastigors. Now keep in mind, I threw my Destroyer out there, forcing his hand. I didn't want the strength of his forces hitting my main lines. I was hoping one of his charges would fail since he needed good roles. He made them all. We were in combat for about 4 or 5 combat phases. I focused on his Beastigors and had the unit (started out as unit of 30) down to 5 before the Destroyer finally died. Even though the Destroyer died, at least the Destroyer tied up his main forces long enough for me to take out the rest of his stuff.

Game 5, Ogres. He placed a Sabertusk right in front of my Destroyer in a way that if I charged, I'd have to Overrun into his unit of 6 Maneaters. I tried to hold the charge, but failed. I ended up in combat with his Maneaters which I didn't think was a big deal. Apparently they can choose to have poisoned attacks which are just deadly. I honestly can't remember if I rolled bad on my saves or not, but the Destroyer died within a few rounds.

To be honest, at this point I'm seriously wondering if I can put a more effective army together spending those 325 points elsewhere. It sure as hell can't get worse.

-Totenkopf-
17-07-2012, 01:45
I really don't understand the problem.. Every list I come with, since I began playing this game in the early 90s, has had multiple ways to deal with this guy.. People will always find something to complain about.. its a 300pt target, I'd rather have a unit of chaos knights(I don't play chaos, just saying) The thing is just as kill-able as the TK sphinxes and some of the nastier heavy cav out there.. Please people, some complaining.. 325pts of monstrous cav are more effective... The problem people have is that he seems to be the one trick pony everyone is after.. seemingly do it all.. Well, look at it within the confines of the army it's for.. CD don't really have a lot of tools at there disposal so you always know what you're facing and frankly, its not that scary.. Hydras and HAs are not either.. maxing your points on any of these monsters is not remotely close to an auto-win.

In all honesty, if you're crying about this monster being broken, you're not very good at warhammer and should practice more..


@ tvandyke - I think your experiences with the KD are exactly what you can expect on average.. some games he will smash down some units, some he will get routed around and in all cases he will be victory points in your opponents favour.. People need to stop whining and learn to play.

mostlyharmless
17-07-2012, 05:55
I fought a K'dai Destroyer with my dark elves at a tournament this weekend. I fed it a couple chariots to keep it busy while I dealt with the rest of the chaos dwarf army. Long story short, I was unable to deal with the rest of my opponent's army. It's not the Destroyer that's the big problem, it's a relatively small problem. There's alot out there that can deal with it. The rest of the list, well, let's just say this isn't the appropriate thread for ranting about the remainder of the chaos dwarf list.

Protip: it's not immune to poison, and last I checked, the poison auto-wound wasn't a roll to wound, tis a roll to hit. I see skinks and witches and ghouls making short work of it.

Doommasters
17-07-2012, 06:00
No doubt is the one of the best if not the best monster the game fror its points! The upside is you will never face more than one it has flamming attacks and CD as a whole are not over powered even with the Destroyer.


Agree this topic has been thrashed to death recently

Zeroth
17-07-2012, 06:55
Not having any Chaos Dwarfs player around, I don't really have this problem. But I am very glad that our gang of fantasy players all appreciate the fine work of the ETC comp. Chaos Dwarfs got a really strong army book, there are some other really strong units and choices in that book, The K'daai Destroyer being probably the hardest nail. Didn't know about that FAQ though, it's still a silly strong rule.

Maybe in the next version of Storm of Magic we'll find it with GW's opinion of what it would cost, just like the Hydra (40 points up, without hatred and handlers.. speaks for itself)

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 08:28
Zeroth: That's just not true and surprises me you can make a judgement when, from what I can understand, you've never even faced them. I think that's the problem here; you get a situation where whispers and poor players make things out to be an issue, when they're not.

panic_puppet
17-07-2012, 08:44
What's its leadership like? Normally my TK go for either a catapult to the face or a casket activation to deal with big nasties, and the catapult won't work in this case since its got a 2+ ward against it.

MOMUS
17-07-2012, 10:08
I really don't understand the problem.. Every list I come with, since I began playing this game in the early 90s, has had multiple ways to deal with this guy.. People will always find something to complain about.. its a 300pt target.

You could build a list that could deal with this guy in multiple ways, in a different editions, before he was invented :confused:

BigbyWolf
17-07-2012, 10:42
In all honesty, if you're crying about this monster being broken, you're not very good at warhammer and should practice more...

In all honesty, if you're ranting about it this monster not being broken, you probably don't understand what the term "broken" means.

The KD is broken, this much is clear. It's quite possible to take it down, sometimes it's downright easy to do so. Still doesn't mean it isn't broken.

Also comments like "should practice more" and "learn how to play" are just silly. It's easy enough to make a point without trotting out those little nuggets of wisdom.

Azrothan
17-07-2012, 11:46
You could build a list that could deal with this guy in multiple ways, in a different editions, before he was invented :confused:
The drawbacks of Frenzy have been around for a while...

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 12:34
In all honesty, if you're ranting about it this monster not being broken, you probably don't understand what the term "broken" means.

The KD is broken, this much is clear. It's quite possible to take it down, sometimes it's downright easy to do so. Still doesn't mean it isn't broken.

Also comments like "should practice more" and "learn how to play" are just silly. It's easy enough to make a point without trotting out those little nuggets of wisdom.


So some guy on the internet cries because something they perceive an item to be 'broken' (whatever that means: To me it means they can't deal with it). What is your point in this? What are you trying to achieve?

Or is this just an opportunity to cry broken, broken broken?

I don't see where this topic is heading tbh.

logan054
17-07-2012, 13:27
The destroyer is a tad overpowered for the points, I think anyone arguing otherwise doesn't have a great grasp on the rules, still it is nice to see a monster that is actually worth taking, like anything in warhammer, if you have the right tools to deal with it then you wont have any problems, its just the tools needed to deal with it are far more limited in comparison to other units in the game, VC shouldn't have any problems with it, just charge it with a etheral and hold it in place for the game until your ready to deal with it.

warplock
17-07-2012, 14:41
So some guy on the internet cries because something they perceive an item to be 'broken' (whatever that means: To me it means they can't deal with it). What is your point in this? What are you trying to achieve?

Or is this just an opportunity to cry broken, broken broken?

I don't see where this topic is heading tbh.

What you seem to be saying is that nothing is, nor can it be, broken. That if someone calls something broken they just can't deal with it. So if Archaon cost 150 points, that would not be broken? If Warp Lightning Cannons auto-hit always at S10, that would not be broken? People should just shut up 'find ways to deal with it'? Obviously the Destroyer can be dealt with, in numerous ways. But it is very clearly priced far too cheaply for its abilities - it's remarkable and certainly comment-worthy. Now 'crying about it being broken' obviously does not change anything, and in the end people *will* just have to find ways to deal with it - but I don't blame them for decrying its brokenness, in a game which is based on point values which are supposed to be relative to the power or usefulness of the model, a game which is often played in tournaments at a competetive level. Of course they're not going to get it right all the time, but they missed the mark by such a long way, it calls into question whether they even playtested it or knew what any of the rules even meant.

MOMUS
17-07-2012, 14:51
The drawbacks of Frenzy have been around for a while...


Yes, because frenzy is the scariest thing about it :rolleyes: Have you actually read the chaos dwarf book? I have it right here in front of me, I think the chaos dwarf list would actually be alot better if it wasnt included it would mean some tactics would need to be used for a start.

tvandyke
17-07-2012, 15:35
What you seem to be saying is that nothing is, nor can it be, broken. That if someone calls something broken they just can't deal with it. So if Archaon cost 150 points, that would not be broken? If Warp Lightning Cannons auto-hit always at S10, that would not be broken? People should just shut up 'find ways to deal with it'? Obviously the Destroyer can be dealt with, in numerous ways. But it is very clearly priced far too cheaply for its abilities - it's remarkable and certainly comment-worthy. Now 'crying about it being broken' obviously does not change anything, and in the end people *will* just have to find ways to deal with it - but I don't blame them for decrying its brokenness, in a game which is based on point values which are supposed to be relative to the power or usefulness of the model, a game which is often played in tournaments at a competetive level. Of course they're not going to get it right all the time, but they missed the mark by such a long way, it calls into question whether they even playtested it or knew what any of the rules even meant.

You're looking at the Destroyer in a vacuum though. Just imagine Skaven having access to the Destroyer. Everything else in the Chaos Dwarf list is very expensive, including the Destroyer. The question really is if the Chaos Dwarf list with a Destroyer is broken and based on my experience and the experience of the other two players in the area the answer has to be a resounding "no". It's not just an opinion, we actually have tournament results that say so. I also consider myself a pretty decent player. I've won a GW GT, placed in the top 10 numerous times including a 9th place finish at the GW GT in Nottingham with over 200 players. My main three armies have been all Nurgle Warriors/Maurauders, all Nurgle Daemons and Chaos Dwarfs (Ravening Hordes for years). Right now, I'm struggling to win over 50% of my games and I've never had this problem before. It's very possible that turning age 40 has started a downhill erosion of my playing skills. The rest of my body feels that way so why not my Warhammer ability? :-) Maybe I'm playing the army wrong, I don't know. All I can say is that the LOA list feels like it should be decent. The Destroyer kicks ass, no doubt (but he's been dying a lot lately and a lot earlier than he did a few months ago), HW/Shield Dwarfs are decent for the cost, very similar to Iron Breakers and they're core. The magic and War Machines are also decent for the cost, but in the end, the army is being overwhelmed by my opponents. I've had some easy wins, but they seem to come when everything goes right (no miscasts, no misfires with blown up war machines, no failed toughness tests, etc). The games where I've had just a few things go wrong, I've not been able to recover. Something that seems to be much easier with other armies I play. Here's the thing. If you look at the Hydra, what you're getting is a very decent Monster for basically half the cost. I'd much rather swap the Destroyer for the Hydra any day. The reasons go beyond just abilities in game. For one, it spreads the wealth. It allows points to be spent else where. Losing it doesn't cost you the game. Secondly, you get more drops on setup, which really helps tactically. Lastly, from an appearance point of view, it just frees up points to put more cool stuff on the board. I like having something big and impressive on the table, but 325 points is a lot to spend. With Hydras, you get to put something big and cool on the table for half the cost and the thing still kicks ass. Basically, Dark Elves can field two Hydras for the cost of one Destroyer. What's better, two Hydras or a single Destroyer? That's what you should really be comparing.

Lord Inquisitor
17-07-2012, 16:10
You're looking at the Destroyer in a vacuum though. Just imagine Skaven having access to the Destroyer.

...

I like having something big and impressive on the table, but 325 points is a lot to spend. With Hydras, you get to put something big and cool on the table for half the cost and the thing still kicks ass. Basically, Dark Elves can field two Hydras for the cost of one Destroyer. What's better, two Hydras or a single Destroyer? That's what you should really be comparing.

Yes, we're looking at the Destroyer in a vacuum. This thread is about the Destroyer, not the Chaos Dwarfs in general. But yes, I would rather face two hydra than one destroyer. At least within the context of their own lists. I can deal with hydra fairly easily, even two hydra. I've never had even two hydra destroy three quarters of my army on their own.

I'm also amused that "what you should really be comparing" is the Destroyer to the single best value monster in the game (at least, not counting the Destroyer). Hydra are widely considered massively undercosted. Considering in Storm of Magic they cost about 50% more and that's without the benefits of M&H, it's pretty clear they're severely underpointed and won't be staying that cheap when DE are redone. "Look, the Destroyer isn't that bad if you compare it to one of the most broken monster units in the game!" :rolleyes:

CaliforniaGamer
17-07-2012, 16:23
My original point for this thread was to say the Kdaii will change the metagame more than any single model in recent history. Note Im not saying CD in general are OTT and Im definitely not calling for a nerf.

Im very happy with the model in the CD list and eagerly await fighting more CD at GTs.

I will say I would rather have a KD than any other monster in the game. The KD can do stuff no one can do period.

It is better than double hydras or single Aboms IMO (perhaps not as OP as double Aboms tho).

It is interesting because I see people now being very sparing with the flaming attacks in tournament lists due to the KD, allowing the evolutionary arms race to benefit the regen monsters like the hydra/abom even more.
For example, where you might have had a flaming banner as auto-include in the pre-KD era, you may drop it down to single model with flaming attacks and slip in both the dragonbane gem and dhelm. You might also be including items like Ogre Blade and assign one fighty model with magical attacks (even better if he is mounted and cant be tstomped) to deal specifically with a KD.

Although this all could be moot due to the astromonically high price of all FW army and **** poor world economy, but its interesting to contemplate.

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 17:31
Yes, we're looking at the Destroyer in a vacuum. This thread is about the Destroyer, not the Chaos Dwarfs in general.


Well obviously. Perhaps we should break down the movement of a chaos Furies as broken or the left wheel of a chariot. We don't play games of Destroyer vs something else, we play a game inclusive of a variety of different units.

I think you are missing the context of this single unit alongside its army.

Suggesting FW have made a mistake with this unit; equally suggests the unit should be recosted or altered in other ways. Which also suggests the army as a whole should take a hit, which goes against the evidence highlighted by tvandyke.

Again the context gets lost, when people feel hard done by regarding a unit they read about (or coudn't deal with) as being overpowered.


Come back to me when the destroyer single handedly makes Chaos Dwarfs an overpowered army..........

The bearded one
17-07-2012, 17:34
It's so problematic that the Destroyer is such a champ in pretty much every single field though. It has between 7 and 9 ws5 I5 str7 attacks, does several str4 hits at the start of combat, is insanely fast at M9, and is enormously tough (4+ ward, T6, 6 wounds, non-magical attacks reroll to wound). This is the kind of model that is going to eat 2 hydra's in 1 round of close combat without suffering any wounds in return. It is so bothersomely broken that when describing a game against CD one might as well go "yeah, that destroyer was hard as nails! .. oh, yeah, and there was an army somewhere too..". It's the model that is going to do pretty much the majority of killing for the chaos dwarf army.

So far I can only see a few decent ways of killing it or holding it up

- mindrazor (but that kills everything, and it still has a wardsave against that)
- dropping its toughness for the toughness tests
- mounted dragonhelm/dragonbane gem model holding it up (one on foot will get thunderstomped to death)
- lots of poison

thrawn
17-07-2012, 17:35
this is getting old guys.

what army do you play? i want to find the best part of your army and whine about it. i don't see anyone here whining about our 12 point only core option basic dwarf warrior? or our only cavalry that's minimum 40 points and has 2 attacks WS4 S4. maybe we should whine about the over priced mages?

let's get back to my original point. what army do you play?

Vampire Counts . . . Let's start with the blender lord . . .

Daemons . . . Kairos, Skulltaker, Masque LD bomb . . .

Dwarves . . . gun line . . .

etc, etc, etc.

point is, some units in an army are better then others, that's why they're rare choices! i have used my k'daai destroyer twice, he died both times, i now prefer a unit of 6 fireborn.

the final point i wanna make, the proof is in the pudding.

what are CD winning/losing ratios at tournaments? so far, from what is published on the internet, they are slightly higher then 50% average, but still significanlty lower then many others. proof in the pudding! if they were that incredible, it would be another Grey Knights situation where they win every tournament.

let it go.

The bearded one
17-07-2012, 17:44
what army do you play? i want to find the best part of your army and whine about it. i don't see anyone here whining about our 12 point only core option basic dwarf warrior?
Don't they have hobgoblins? Also, those core dwarfs are not a bad deal. They're 12pt ironbreakers. And core! The special version is overpriced, but the core version is A-okey!


maybe we should whine about the over priced mages? FYI though, their lore is obscenely multi-functional, just look at ashstorm!


he died both times,

to what?

The bearded one
17-07-2012, 19:00
Bugger that. I'm going to poison it with skinks, and park a saurus (or a skink on a terradon!) with the dragonbane gem in front of it, and hope it keeps failing toughness tests.

Also it's noted to be a daemon and affected by stuff that affects daemons, so my slann will be throwing banishment at it and hope the 3D6 str4 hits cause a couple of wounds.

Jind_Singh
17-07-2012, 19:02
Posion - stab that bugger with as much venom as possible!! The ONLY units I have to deal with this brute are my Common Gobbos (with the spider banner), the Arachnork, and any unit I cast my posion spell on.

To be honest Forgeworld has no business messing with Fantasy - Warhammer has been a great edition with:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts
Empire

And also the add-ons

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Badlands


Now Forgeworld have started their books and FOR THE MOST part are pretty balanced, fun, and add some depth to our beloved hobby...

With some STRONG objections!!

The K'Daii Destroyer is one such stupied beast - were the rules just make it silly.
The Saurus big monster is another one - he's got great stats, has special rules AND for a mere 75 points becomes etheral - Oh - he can also ambush and have swiftstride!

It's crap and we know it - why introduce units that swing the balance so far to one side - it makes no sense that you have to invest considerably more points to deal with a single unit.

The Warhammer Dragon, fluff wise, is one of the most powerful beasts out there - but it can be dealt with.

Hydras and Abombinations even can be dealt with

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 19:13
Posion - stab that bugger with as much venom as possible!! The ONLY units I have to deal with this brute are my Common Gobbos (with the spider banner), the Arachnork, and any unit I cast my posion spell on.

To be honest Forgeworld has no business messing with Fantasy - Warhammer has been a great edition with:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts
Empire

And also the add-ons

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Badlands


Now Forgeworld have started their books and FOR THE MOST part are pretty balanced, fun, and add some depth to our beloved hobby...

With some STRONG objections!!

The K'Daii Destroyer is one such stupied beast - were the rules just make it silly.
The Saurus big monster is another one - he's got great stats, has special rules AND for a mere 75 points becomes etheral - Oh - he can also ambush and have swiftstride!

It's crap and we know it - why introduce units that swing the balance so far to one side - it makes no sense that you have to invest considerably more points to deal with a single unit.

The Warhammer Dragon, fluff wise, is one of the most powerful beasts out there - but it can be dealt with.

Hydras and Abombinations even can be dealt with

Can I recommend you read the whole thread please?

Confessor_Atol
17-07-2012, 19:28
Seriously, the argument that "you can never say a specific unit is dramatically undercosted" is a lame one.

While the destroyer is not going to end warhammer, it's clearly a stong monster. Maybe the strongest. That's the point of the thread. While I think the CD list could have used more playtesting, no one has said that the army is broken.

Themanbelow is obviously troll-baiting. Check the post-count on his account, it looks like he set it up just to **** in this thread.

tvandyke
17-07-2012, 19:34
Yes, we're looking at the Destroyer in a vacuum. This thread is about the Destroyer, not the Chaos Dwarfs in general. But yes, I would rather face two hydra than one destroyer. At least within the context of their own lists. I can deal with hydra fairly easily, even two hydra. I've never had even two hydra destroy three quarters of my army on their own.

I'm also amused that "what you should really be comparing" is the Destroyer to the single best value monster in the game (at least, not counting the Destroyer). Hydra are widely considered massively undercosted. Considering in Storm of Magic they cost about 50% more and that's without the benefits of M&H, it's pretty clear they're severely underpointed and won't be staying that cheap when DE are redone. "Look, the Destroyer isn't that bad if you compare it to one of the most broken monster units in the game!" :rolleyes:


So, basically what you're saying is that if you and I played and you wiped my army off the table top (which has been happening to me at rate greater than my Warriors, Daemons or Ravening Hordes Chaos Dwarfs), the first thing out of your mouth would be "your army is horrible, that Destroyer has no place in this game"? I find it funny. The context in which you're going to be facing the Destroyer matters. I'm sorry, but we play armies versus armies. Your not placing 325 points of troops on the table and I'm placing a Destroyer to face it. We're both putting armies on the table. What makes the Abomination and Hydra so horrible isn't that the monsters themselves are awesome, it's the rest of the army along side those mosters are also nasty. There's a lot of troops in the CD list that are really overpriced. Basically all the weapon option upgrades for the core Chaos Dwarfs are ridiculous. Bull Centaurs and Fireborn are decent but expensive for what they offer. I've played some really nasty armies in my time. I remember using the Ravening Hordes Daemon list (all Nurgle) and had 19 casting dice at my disposel. With a combination of Heavens and Shadow magic I was able to fly my Great Unclean One into the flank of units in a single turn 28" away (Steed of Shadows and Unseen Lurker). This was in addition to my 3 blocks of Plagubearers that were each counted as level 4 casters. That was an army that I had to apologize for. The LOA list? Even with the Destroyer I'm not apologizing for it. It's not even close to the filth that most other players are putting on the table at the tournaments I attend and it's not for lack of trying. I'm honestly trying to build the most competitive list I can and it's proven not very successful. As good as the Destroyer is, I'm beginning to believe I might be able to build a more successful list without it. If this proves true, I can guarantee everyone will be saying how toned down my list is when in reality it's harder. Funny how that works.

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 19:40
Seriously, the argument that "you can never say a specific unit is dramatically undercosted" is a lame one.

While the destroyer is not going to end warhammer, it's clearly a stong monster. Maybe the strongest. That's the point of the thread. While I think the CD list could have used more playtesting, no one has said that the army is broken.

Themanbelow is obviously troll-baiting. Check the post-count on his account, it looks like he set it up just to **** in this thread.

Not at all. Post count has nothing to do with anything (other than deflecting a discussion). The insinuation was that FW messed up with this unit (various quotes that I can't be bothered to repeat) and my argument was that FW didn't mess up as it doesn't effect the game in anyway because it balances out the CD army, hence why you need context when applying such an opinion.

I tried to develop the discussion in a way that makes people understand that it doesn't matter if item X is wrong, because we don't play a game with just one unit. That is why I said that with the KD the CD is not an overpowered army (I am having to repeat myself here).

I'm interested to know the background to such 'broken' opinions. I'd hazard a guess that it is due to either a game they heard about or a game they played (only one) where they didn't know how to deal with it and rather than learnign how to next time, decide to form an opinion that the item was a mistake.

Perhaps FW should nerf it and just make CD an auto win, that way those complaining will have one less thing to worry about.

Lord Inquisitor
17-07-2012, 19:54
Well obviously. Perhaps we should break down the movement of a chaos Furies as broken or the left wheel of a chariot. We don't play games of Destroyer vs something else, we play a game inclusive of a variety of different units.

I think you are missing the context of this single unit alongside its army.
Would you agree that Teclis isn't overpowered then, because basic high elves are overcosted?

This is exactly analogous. I played plenty of Teclis lists at Ard Boyz and even with Teclis HE were merely okay in that environment. They're beatable, strong but beatable. But you have to get through Teclis to win. And Teclis can win the game almost single-handedly. Same with the Destroyer.

But are we going to say Teclis isn't overpowered for his points? Can we not say he is overpowered for his cost without someone popping out of the woodwork to say "yeah but spearelves are nine points a model so it's okay!"


Come back to me when the destroyer single handedly makes Chaos Dwarfs an overpowered army..........
The reality isn't that far off. I've had the Destroyer wipe out three quarters of my army in points by itself. I surrounded it, charged it with great-weapon-wielding ogres. I threw in characters with fire wards, I threw in a guy with the OTS. It basically killed them all. In all honesty, for that game, I might as well have been playing only the Destroyer. That's stupid.


There's simply nothing you can do. Nothing. Warhammer is pointless. Sell your models and leave the hobby now, before it's too late.
My gripe with it is actually not that far off. It's fairly resistant to any "normal" strategy you can think of. Throw great weapon troops into it? It kills infantry on a scale no other model can achieve. Cannons? Oh, look, the toughest thing in the game bar none versus cannons. It'll eat any Greater Daemon you throw into it for double the points cost. Frenzy might be a weakness - not that bad in an army with a Ld10 general. Trying to block it with chaff is pretty difficult as the damn thing is M9. Megadeath spells are pretty useless as it has I5.

Which doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands and saying "there's nothing you can do!!" and crying in the corner. But an accurate and realistic assessment of strength is needed. After a few games, my rule of thumb is that you need to put somewhere in the region of two-thirds of your army into it to win. Unless you have the fortune to be using Shadow. It needs to die, it needs to die fast and with overwhelming force. Even then you can expect to lose a unit or two, or any characters you throw in without firewards. I don't think I've killed it without suffering losses well above the value of the Destroyer.

It's a tough nut and all the tougher in the CD list, where magma cannons and earthshakers are raining death.


So, basically what you're saying is that if you and I played and you wiped my army off the table top (which has been happening to me at rate greater than my Warriors, Daemons or Ravening Hordes Chaos Dwarfs), the first thing out of your mouth would be "your army is horrible, that Destroyer has no place in this game"? I find it funny.
Again, I bring Teclis and that's fine with you because high elves are underpointed?

This rather assumes CD are weak and I don't think so. CD are severely unbalanced (which is not the same as overpowered). Some units are too good, some are rubbish. If you spam the good stuff, CD are very solid indeed. Playing Shandowner's CD with my max-cheese Daemon list the two armies seemed pretty well balanced and CD make a mess of Ogres, who are top of the 8th edition heap.

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 20:05
Would you agree that Teclis isn't overpowered then, because basic high elves are overcosted?

This is exactly analogous. I played plenty of Teclis lists at Ard Boyz and even with Teclis HE were merely okay in that environment. They're beatable, strong but beatable. But you have to get through Teclis to win. And Teclis can win the game almost single-handedly. Same with the Destroyer.

But are we going to say Teclis isn't overpowered for his points? Can we not say he is overpowered for his cost without someone popping out of the woodwork to say "yeah but spearelves are nine points a model so it's okay!"


The reality isn't that far off. I've had the Destroyer wipe out three quarters of my army in points by itself. I surrounded it, charged it with great-weapon-wielding ogres. I threw in characters with fire wards, I threw in a guy with the OTS. It basically killed them all. In all honesty, for that game, I might as well have been playing only the Destroyer. That's stupid.


My gripe with it is actually not that far off. It's fairly resistant to any "normal" strategy you can think of. Throw great weapon troops into it? It kills infantry on a scale no other model can achieve. Cannons? Oh, look, the toughest thing in the game bar none versus cannons. It'll eat any Greater Daemon you throw into it for double the points cost. Frenzy might be a weakness - not that bad in an army with a Ld10 general. Trying to block it with chaff is pretty difficult as the damn thing is M9. Megadeath spells are pretty useless as it has I5.

Which doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands and saying "there's nothing you can do!!" and crying in the corner. But an accurate and realistic assessment of strength is needed. After a few games, my rule of thumb is that you need to put somewhere in the region of two-thirds of your army into it to win. Unless you have the fortune to be using Shadow. It needs to die, it needs to die fast and with overwhelming force. Even then you can expect to lose a unit or two, or any characters you throw in without firewards. I don't think I've killed it without suffering losses well above the value of the Destroyer.

It's a tough nut and all the tougher in the CD list, where magma cannons and earthshakers are raining death.


Again, I bring Teclis and that's fine with you because high elves are underpointed?

This rather assumes CD are weak and I don't think so. CD are severely unbalanced (which is not the same as overpowered). Some units are too good, some are rubbish. If you spam the good stuff, CD are very solid indeed. Playing Shandowner's CD with my max-cheese Daemon list the two armies seemed pretty well balanced and CD make a mess of Ogres, who are top of the 8th edition heap.

But all these points help reinforce my argument. You've based a whole opinion on one game where you didn't know how to deal with it.

Lord Inquisitor
17-07-2012, 20:11
No, I've played a few times with daemons and ogres. I fully understand how to deal with it. I have killed it - if I don't kill it it will eat my army. CD players can expect it to die - if it doesn't die, the enemy is likely all dead. But I don't think I've killed it without suffering far more points than it was worth. I have won against CD, albeit by the skin of my teeth and a bit of purple sunnage.

Indeed, the important aspect to beating CD is not to underestimate the horrific potential of the Destroyer.

tvandyke
17-07-2012, 20:12
Which doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands and saying "there's nothing you can do!!" and crying in the corner. But an accurate and realistic assessment of strength is needed. After a few games, my rule of thumb is that you need to put somewhere in the region of two-thirds of your army into it to win. Unless you have the fortune to be using Shadow. It needs to die, it needs to die fast and with overwhelming force. Even then you can expect to lose a unit or two, or any characters you throw in without firewards. I don't think I've killed it without suffering losses well above the value of the Destroyer.


Really? Two-thirds? You're losing any credibility you might have had. Did you even bother to read one of my previous posts about what killed off my Destroyer in the 5 games at the Quake City Rumble? It died all 5 games, all before the 3rd turn ended. Did you read that part? A unit of 6 maneaters dispatched it fairly quickly. I didn't make a mess of that Ogre army. How many times have you played against the army? Have you played against it with more than one type of army? I'm trying to give you a perspective from someone who uses the army and isn't having anywhere near the success you seem to think I should be having. Are we living in two different universes? Why is my real life experience with army different than your version? Please, let me know, because I truely want to start enjoying the success I should be having with it. What's the secret? Once I know it, I'll pass it on to the other CD players that are having the same experience I've been having.

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 20:13
No, I've played a few times with daemons and ogres. I fully understand how to deal with it. I have killed it - if I don't kill it it will eat my army. CD players can expect it to die - if it doesn't die, the enemy is likely all dead. But I don't think I've killed it without suffering far more points than it was worth. I have won against CD, albeit by the skin of my teeth and a bit of purple sunnage.

Indeed, the important aspect to beating CD is not to underestimate the horrific potential of the Destroyer.

Agreed. But it seems like you've had to learn and then played some good games (and excuse me whilst I bit my lip a little thinking here we have an Ogre player suggesting cheese to a CD player).

Urgat
17-07-2012, 20:39
Can I recommend you read the whole thread please?
Well, I can sum up his post with the assumption he did: "I don't agree with you" :p
On a side note, his list of things that can deal with the destroyer is the exact same as mine, incidentaly. Of course, it's unlikely I'll get more than one poisonned volley shot off with my goblins before it gets in melee, and then it'll murder them in melee ><. Hoping on venom surge from the arachnarok might be a long shot (because for all the talks of "booh the rest of the army is expensive", well, it's worth what it costs, doesn't it? Among the meanest warmachines around, and blunderbusses make a mess of things. So fireglaives and the special dwarves are overcosted... Big deal, the rest isn't bad. Maybe my fantasied unit of big bosses on gigantic spider would actually become a default in my army if I have to face that thing.

Jind_Singh
17-07-2012, 20:45
Why?

I read it - thats why I posted.

Thread states the KD is the best monster - period.

I just wrote what I'd have in my own army to deal with it - as others have.

I also said that the beast has no place in the game - it's as dumb as the Mountain Chimera - as they are too good for what they do. The only difference is that the Mountain Chimera needs a set of circumstances to be played off and is vunerable to being dispelled the next turn.

The KD is a poorly thought out monster - it's best in class as it has NO CLASS - you can pit it against any beastie out there and it'll run circles around them for the most part.

The only other beastie, but would be more expensive, is the Dread Saurian which is even worse than the KD - with the upgrades it beats the KD hands down.

So what was your point?

themanbelow
17-07-2012, 20:51
So what was your point?

Don't worry about it, we haven't got 20 years.

Confessor_Atol
17-07-2012, 21:03
That's pretty funny.


- it's best in class as it has NO CLASS -

145561

Snake1311
17-07-2012, 21:26
I just makes the Dragonhelm and gem even more mandatory than they were before.

Just because CD may not be overperforming overall for one reason or another, doesn't mean the KD isn't broken. The fact that everyone takes it should be an indicator for starters - its like the hellpit on crack.

Jind_Singh
17-07-2012, 21:37
LOL! Ok - I won't worry about your 1st point either! :p :D

Montegue
17-07-2012, 22:21
tvandyke - I find it a little amusing that you're referencing your experiences at Quake City to justify how the monsters isn't OTT. I read your first anecdote and stopped there. You charged a group of Savages accompanied by two Orc characters and they took 4 turns of combat to kill the KD.

If that's not OTT, I don't know what is, lol.

Zeroth
17-07-2012, 22:30
Zeroth: That's just not true and surprises me you can make a judgement when, from what I can understand, you've never even faced them. I think that's the problem here; you get a situation where whispers and poor players make things out to be an issue, when they're not.

You're right, I don't have much experience against them, did 2 or 3 practice games when my pal proxied them didn't use the K'daai Destroyer though and it was under the ETC comp, still was a very tight fight. Tough as nails them are.

The bearded one
17-07-2012, 22:49
tvandyke - I find it a little amusing that you're referencing your experiences at Quake City to justify how the monsters isn't OTT. I read your first anecdote and stopped there. You charged a group of Savages accompanied by two Orc characters and they took 4 turns of combat to kill the KD.

If that's not OTT, I don't know what is, lol.

How about the third anecdote? A unit of 3++ chosen fighting it for 4 rounds, 2 of which with mindrazor, before killing it but losing half the unit.

Or the fourth, where a big unit of minotaurs, a minotaur lord and 30 bestigors charge it, and lose nearly all bestigors before killing it after 4-5 rounds of combat.


The 2nd anecdote seems mostly a case of bad luck: losing 3 wounds to skinks in 1 turn (requiring 36 shots on average), before charging into an unstompable unit of skinks-krox, after which a stegadon countercharges and promptly loses 4 out of 5 wounds, then rolling a 6 on the toughness test and a 5 on the D3.
The 5th anecdote a case of your opponent using frenzy to force you into the perfect counter, and even it's surprising you didn't wreck the ogres anyway, because the destroyer can kill a third of those maneaters in 1 round.

Urgat
17-07-2012, 23:50
tvandyke - I find it a little amusing that you're referencing your experiences at Quake City to justify how the monsters isn't OTT. I read your first anecdote and stopped there. You charged a group of Savages accompanied by two Orc characters and they took 4 turns of combat to kill the KD.

If that's not OTT, I don't know what is, lol.

You forgot to mention he whiffed his attacks and the orc player got very lucky with his ward saves. In short, he might have won with average dice too.

Ultimate Life Form
18-07-2012, 00:40
So in short the K'daii absolutely sucks because it rolled far below average... yeah, totally get the point.

Maybe this is the time where I should throw in my story of the Hellpit Abomination losing pathetically to those Savage Orcs again... :p

vinny t
18-07-2012, 00:51
So in short the K'daii absolutely sucks because it rolled far below average... yeah, totally get the point.

I was definitely thinking the same thing. When you throw the Destroyer at the best units in each army plus magic buffs it's not surprising it died.

I personally am not too scared of the Destroyer because I have skinks and a Dragonhelm Scar-Vet. But I can see how some armies would have a very tough time with it.

Emissary
18-07-2012, 01:06
I must have missed something. Where does it say that mindrazor gives you magical attacks?

LotlBotl
18-07-2012, 02:04
The KD is a poorly thought out monster - it's best in class as it has NO CLASS - you can pit it against any beastie out there and it'll run circles around them for the most part.

The only other beastie, but would be more expensive, is the Dread Saurian which is even worse than the KD - with the upgrades it beats the KD hands down.


I'm gonna have to go with this. I love the DS's artwork and the whole idea behind it, but it's The Hate Machine(TM), and it will make a complete mess out of just about anything it gets its jaws on and take options for just about any role- not to mention chomp attack has Heroic Killing Blow for it.

Captain Obvious Protip: You'd probably have to go with a Necrosphinx to reliably take the angry lizard on. [/Turn off]

Although I'm now interested in seeing what insanity FW would come up for the Thunder Lizard. It would be fascinating, in a way. :p;)

Jind_Singh
18-07-2012, 03:41
Every monster should have some inherent weakness in it - I think the power level of say Stone horns, Thunder tusks, Arachnroks is prefect!!

Dread Saurian for the win - KD is a close 2nd.

The bearded one
18-07-2012, 03:48
I must have missed something. Where does it say that mindrazor gives you magical attacks?

I don't recall anyone claiming it did, but wounding on 2's that you have to reroll is still slightly better than 6's you have to reroll.

Urgat
18-07-2012, 04:14
I suppose it was pre-FAQ anyway.


Every monster should have some inherent weakness in it - I think the power level of say Stone horns, Thunder tusks, Arachnroks is prefect!!

Dread Saurian for the win - KD is a close 2nd.

Got monstrous ARcanum for my B-day, I was surprised to see that there's actually three levels to the Rogue Idol of Gork (or Mork). The Greater version is actually pretty nasty, with 10 wounds and stuff. It's exalted Greater Demon level. Of course it costs twice a destroyer, you're gonna tell me :p

tvandyke
18-07-2012, 04:37
How about the third anecdote? A unit of 3++ chosen fighting it for 4 rounds, 2 of which with mindrazor, before killing it but losing half the unit.

Or the fourth, where a big unit of minotaurs, a minotaur lord and 30 bestigors charge it, and lose nearly all bestigors before killing it after 4-5 rounds of combat.


The 2nd anecdote seems mostly a case of bad luck: losing 3 wounds to skinks in 1 turn (requiring 36 shots on average), before charging into an unstompable unit of skinks-krox, after which a stegadon countercharges and promptly loses 4 out of 5 wounds, then rolling a 6 on the toughness test and a 5 on the D3.
The 5th anecdote a case of your opponent using frenzy to force you into the perfect counter, and even it's surprising you didn't wreck the ogres anyway, because the destroyer can kill a third of those maneaters in 1 round.

I think you guys have missed the point I was trying to make. I haven't argued that the Destroyer isn't great for the points. What I'm arguing is that despite how OTT you all seem to think it is, that doesn't mean it translates into auto wins for the CD army. In the two tournaments that I've attended in the last couple of months there's been two armies that had a perfect 100 points in battle which is 5 wins with maximum score. They've both been Skaven armies. The three Chaos Dwarf armies on the other hand, managed to barely get to a 50% win total in both tournaments and we've all used the Destroyer. That's the point that matters. It doesn't matter if I threw the Destroyer at a unit of chosen and wiped out half the unit, I lost the game. The same with all you're other anecdotal evidence to say how awesome the Destroyer is. I still lost the games. The other Chaos Dwarf players have similar experiences. The real question is what does that say about the Chaos Dwarf army as a whole? If it supposedly has access to the most undercosted model in the game, why is our win/loss record so mediocre? By the way, this isn't just the three of us here in Northern California. In tournaments around the world, the Chaos Dwarfs are having similar success. Perhaps the Destroyer needs to be only 310 points then I could bring two in a 2500 point battle. Maybe then I could match the success of the very well balanced Skaven armies that people use.

Lord Inquisitor
18-07-2012, 05:25
Really? Two-thirds? You're losing any credibility you might have had.
*Shrug* I find it is about that. I've watched it wreck a unit of 9 ironguts to the front, with a side charge from my (depleted from magic and shooting), including my Slaughtermaster with fireward and Tyrant with magic weapon and OTS. My BSB bought it from their big fiery template spell (yes, despite being in a unit and having the other fireward!). Even without the BSB in there the Destroyer accounted for about 1500 vps, some from pursuit, although he did eventually have a bit of help breaking steadfast from a CD unit after holding his own for a few rounds.


Did you even bother to read one of my previous posts about what killed off my Destroyer in the 5 games at the Quake City Rumble? It died all 5 games, all before the 3rd turn ended.
Okay let's have a look.

Game 1: vs savage orcs. I'm not quite sure how this didn't result in a massive win for the Destroyer, I can only imagine incredible bad luck. The destroyer should be able to kill either of the characters in one round, assuming neither of them have the dragonhelm. The rank and file, shouldn't be able to hurt it, even post-errata, we're talking about 144 attacks per wound caused. Even if the Destroyer has to concentrate on the characters, between burning body and thunderstomp it should account for on average 3-4 wounds per turn even with the 5+ wardsave, enough to match static res on top of its attacks! This seems staggeringly unlucky.

Game 2: Skink blowpipes should knock off a wound per 12 shots. Certainly one of the best options out there to deal with it, but 3 wounds lost seems unlucky. From what you describe it seems most unlucky to have lost him. Burning body wounding skinks on 2s - and you lost combat?

Game 3: Died to 3++ Chosen with Ward Save and mindrazor. Yeah, that's the single most horrible infantry unit combination imaginable, and it still took them on for several whole turns and accounted for half their number. So he took on a unit worth about 700 points (a unit of 30 chosen with the toys), plus a 150 point support unit plus a 400 point wizard focusing on it. Even then killed well over it's points value of stuff.

Game 4: Took on... somewhere in the region of 1200 points, even assuming a fairly modest unit of 6 minotaurs for several turns. All but killed a unit well over its own points.

Game 5: Firstly pretty unlucky to fail a frenzy check early game since you presumably have a ld 10 general and BSB, but even then while poison Maneaters are hands down the best unit to take on the destroyer with you seem unlucky again. The destroyer should average about two maneaters per turn, and the maneaters shouldn't manage more than a couple of wounds even with poison. It's a pretty fair fight.

The common themes are:

- you were very unlucky
- you took on units or combinations that were worth in excess of 1000 points with a 300-odd point monster
- you held them for several game turns
- you took out well above your points in enemy models before dying

All of this really reinforces what I was saying. You can't beat a Destroyer (barring exceptional luck) with anything less than 1000 points and even then it's a hard slog. A decisive kill requires the focus of all your heavy hitters and your magic and even then it isn't a surefire bet.

Trains_Get_Robbed
18-07-2012, 06:27
*Shrug* I find it is about that. I've watched it wreck a unit of 9 ironguts to the front, with a side charge from my (depleted from magic and shooting), including my Slaughtermaster with fireward and Tyrant with magic weapon and OTS. My BSB bought it from their big fiery template spell (yes, despite being in a unit and having the other fireward!). Even without the BSB in there the Destroyer accounted for about 1500 vps, some from pursuit, although he did eventually have a bit of help breaking steadfast from a CD unit after holding his own for a few rounds.


Okay let's have a look.

Game 1: vs savage orcs. I'm not quite sure how this didn't result in a massive win for the Destroyer, I can only imagine incredible bad luck. The destroyer should be able to kill either of the characters in one round, assuming neither of them have the dragonhelm. The rank and file, shouldn't be able to hurt it, even post-errata, we're talking about 144 attacks per wound caused. Even if the Destroyer has to concentrate on the characters, between burning body and thunderstomp it should account for on average 3-4 wounds per turn even with the 5+ wardsave, enough to match static res on top of its attacks! This seems staggeringly unlucky.

Game 2: Skink blowpipes should knock off a wound per 12 shots. Certainly one of the best options out there to deal with it, but 3 wounds lost seems unlucky. From what you describe it seems most unlucky to have lost him. Burning body wounding skinks on 2s - and you lost combat?

Game 3: Died to 3++ Chosen with Ward Save and mindrazor. Yeah, that's the single most horrible infantry unit combination imaginable, and it still took them on for several whole turns and accounted for half their number. So he took on a unit worth about 700 points (a unit of 30 chosen with the toys), plus a 150 point support unit plus a 400 point wizard focusing on it. Even then killed well over it's points value of stuff.

Game 4: Took on... somewhere in the region of 1200 points, even assuming a fairly modest unit of 6 minotaurs for several turns. All but killed a unit well over its own points.

Game 5: Firstly pretty unlucky to fail a frenzy check early game since you presumably have a ld 10 general and BSB, but even then while poison Maneaters are hands down the best unit to take on the destroyer with you seem unlucky again. The destroyer should average about two maneaters per turn, and the maneaters shouldn't manage more than a couple of wounds even with poison. It's a pretty fair fight.

The common themes are:

- you were very unlucky
- you took on units or combinations that were worth in excess of 1000 points with a 300-odd point monster
- you held them for several game turns
- you took out well above your points in enemy models before dying

All of this really reinforces what I was saying. You can't beat a Destroyer (barring exceptional luck) with anything less than 1000 points and even then it's a hard slog. A decisive kill requires the focus of all your heavy hitters and your magic and even then it isn't a surefire bet.

This is 9 kinds of spot on. I was going to bring up the luck factor and the fact that you may have made some tactical blunders with the rest of your army, if the Kadaii is destryoing/holding up in excess 1,000 points what is the rest of your army doing? Sucking?

The Kadaii is better than almost any unit in the game, and hands down better than multiples of a Hydra or Hellpit bar none.

I mean if the Kadaii isn't that cheese in some people's eyes, maybe "cheese scales" are changing, hey, maybe then I could regularly use Teclis, I mean he isn't that bad either right?

Doommasters
18-07-2012, 07:11
This is 9 kinds of spot on. I was going to bring up the luck factor and the fact that you may have made some tactical blunders with the rest of your army, if the Kadaii is destryoing/holding up in excess 1,000 points what is the rest of your army doing? Sucking?

The Kadaii is better than almost any unit in the game, and hands down better than multiples of a Hydra or Hellpit bar none.

I mean if the Kadaii isn't that cheese in some people's eyes, maybe "cheese scales" are changing, hey, maybe then I could regularly use Teclis, I mean he isn't that bad either right?


It is very powerful and not many people are saying it isn't one of if not the best monster in the game and unless you get 'lucky' you really do need a unit worth more points to deal with it....unless you can get a decent character with the helm into it. SGK and Vampire lords are failry decent at taking it down but again you need the helm to do so.

Overall it feels like you are fighting a greater daemon it is by the far the biggest and best threat the CD army has and the only saving grace is flamming attacks and the rest of the CD list is expensive points wise. It would have been better it was a lord choice at least that way you would have had to sacrice a lvl4 to get it.

In a way I am kinda meh about it simply becuase the CD army as a whole is middle tier and it is a challenge to deal with it. However if FW are going to make more books they really need to re-think the power level of some of these monsters.......all for super powerful daemons but you need to cost them correctly and if possible force the points out of the lord section if there is no obvious weakness.

themanbelow
18-07-2012, 08:12
It's like banging your head on a brick wall sometimes. People still haven't even acknowledged that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Even now, people still refuse to accept evidence and instead imply that the reason CD are not doing as well as many other armies is because of the player in control.

Unbelievable. The least people could actually do here, is appreciate the argument that is trying to be conveyed (albeit hard work). It seems though this this is just traveling five miles above their heads.

If this is not the case, then I think I need some confirmation that they do understand and may give me slight reassurance if you could reiterate what our counter argument is (for the sake of sanity & mankind).

GrandmasterWang
18-07-2012, 08:47
Heh. Ill add my 2c. I play chaos dwarfs. Loving the fw book. Not loving the destroyer. It is broken. Easily the best monster in the game in a monster vs monster as well as most other situatuons. Its no where near as broken as say the masque though. Glad for the faq but I really dont see how anyone can argue its not op. I dont run one most of the time more on principle but also I think my cd lists are more fun without it. It can kill a naked greater daemon more often than not imo. Its one real weakness is the self hurting. What is the mathhammer of it losing 3 wounds in turn 1 as a %?

Agree with most of what lord inquisitor says but agree with the poster who said his 2/3rds points comment kills his credibility.

Anecdote challenge. I have killed the destroyer in 1 round of combat ( full health) with my dwarf lord and retinue for the loss of 6 hammerers. Beat that!

Compared to the arcanum monsters (great book, not for balance). Its actually not that scary at all. Toad dragon for 350 pts kills it. Re: the etherial saurian. In the context its not broken at all imo due the the ethereal crushing weapon in the book. Its like rock, paper, scissors.

As a chaos dwarf player who uses the loa rules, My biggest beef with the destroyer (magma cannons are worse imo) is the hate he draws the loa list which isnt op at all. Its things like the magma and destroyer which have people wanting the list banned which makes my big hats :(

To whoever said the solution to beating the destroyer is to "play better". Say I take a themed infantry dwarf list with no war machines or hammerers........ Is playing my best game ever really going to get it done vs the destroyer? I doubt it.

What are the best melee special characters in the game? How would say archaon fair vs the destroyer? Shaggoth special character? The high king pwns him while the white dwarf struggles. Will have to try 2 destroyers vs the high king next time. They are only 650 pts for 2. If it was 800 for 2 there would be much less complainin

MOMUS
18-07-2012, 09:05
This is 9 kinds of spot on. I was going to bring up the luck factor and the fact that you may have made some tactical blunders with the rest of your army, if the Kadaii is destryoing/holding up in excess 1,000 points what is the rest of your army doing?

Getting shot by magma cannons. :D

Snake1311
18-07-2012, 09:23
It's like banging your head on a brick wall sometimes. People still haven't even acknowledged that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Even now, people still refuse to accept evidence and instead imply that the reason CD are not doing as well as many other armies is because of the player in control.

Unbelievable. The least people could actually do here, is appreciate the argument that is trying to be conveyed (albeit hard work). It seems though this this is just traveling five miles above their heads.

If this is not the case, then I think I need some confirmation that they do understand and may give me slight reassurance if you could reiterate what our counter argument is (for the sake of sanity & mankind).

The argument you are trying to convey is that because certain elements of army X are underwhelming, its OK for that army to get other elements which are overpowered.

Its an incredibly poor point, since it supports bad game design, lack of choice (though horribad internal balance), and very fluctuating power levels.

People are ignoring it because its obvious.

Also, yes, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts (corsairs + mindrazor for example). This argument however falls flat on its face when one of the parts can steamroll multiples of its points without any support or relevance to the rest of the army. A 2400pts CD force at the moment is near 2100 pts of CD which work together as an army, and a KD, which does its own thing.

Ultimate Life Form
18-07-2012, 09:55
If Godzilla were on the table it would not be broken because the rest of the army is nonexistent. :rolleyes:

MOMUS
18-07-2012, 10:33
A 2400pts CD force at the moment is near 2100 pts of CD which work together as an army, and a KD, which does its own thing.


I have heard people calling it the cheerleader army for this reason.

Arnizipal
18-07-2012, 12:50
I think it's best to close this thread before actual fighting breaks out.

Arnizipal,

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