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dms505
17-07-2012, 11:36
Sorry if this has been dealt with before but I don't see it anywhere.

During a tournament this past weekend I was told by the other player that a character was only able to "Make Way" one time per combat. I was under the impression that you could do it once per round, if not per round fo combat.

In the BRB page 100 there rules state two things of interest here.

1. "At the start of combat (before impact hits), if the character's unit is in combat, but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact.

To me this says you can do it once at the beginning of EACH combat.

HOWEVER on a side note if you happen to be lined up with a normal rank and file model you MAY NOT "Make Way" to any other spot. Regardless if a second unit behind you has a hero or something else you'd rather have your hero attacking. I think a lot of people play this wrong and just "Make Way" to where they want their hero.

2. "If more than 1 character are stranded within units the players roll off to see who "makes Way" first.

So then the second player "makes way" to whereever they choose to place their hero whether it be against the first hero or far away from him. So being the second to "make way" is actually better since you have more choice. Bur according to point 1 above, until they are out of base contact with any other model they cannot move again.

So technically I believe I was correct in saying there is no reason you couldn't "make way" each round, BUT you have to kill everything in base contact and remove all the models in base contact to be able to "make way" again.

This makes a lot of difference in choosing to make way and where you place characters.

LiddellHart
17-07-2012, 14:27
Seems like a sound story. I agree with your conclusions.

dms505
17-07-2012, 18:48
It honestly probably made the difference in a game I played this past tournament. I moved a hero into contact with a dwarf lord on shield bearers and was in the corner of the unit. Thus I wasn't able to attack his stubborn unit with my hero until he was dead which didn't happen before time ran out. If I had chosen to move my hero over 1 more spot I could have easily taken out the last 3 stubborn dwarves over the 3 rounds of combat and broke or killed the general the general. That actually lost me the game and about 600+ points from that unit.

Quaki
17-07-2012, 20:07
You can do "Make Way" only at the beginning of whole combat, not at the start of each combat round.
However, moving hero when making a combat reform could help you with your problems ;)

T10
17-07-2012, 22:18
It honestly probably made the difference in a game I played this past tournament. I moved a hero into contact with a dwarf lord on shield bearers and was in the corner of the unit. Thus I wasn't able to attack his stubborn unit with my hero until he was dead which didn't happen before time ran out. If I had chosen to move my hero over 1 more spot I could have easily taken out the last 3 stubborn dwarves over the 3 rounds of combat and broke or killed the general the general. That actually lost me the game and about 600+ points from that unit.

Next time, use a Combat Reform to get into a better position :)

Seriously, though. If you have a model in a better position you can usually use a combat reform to swap the character into that position instead. It's legal and does not have anything to do with the Make Way rules.

Laminar
22-07-2012, 13:43
Make Way! is not restricted to only the first combat round. You can Make Way! each turn provided the character meets the requirements of the rule.

LiddellHart
22-07-2012, 18:17
Upon careful rereading of the rules, instead of firing from the hip as above, I must agree with Quaki.

The Make Way! paragraph specifically speaks of the "start of the combat", where e.g. Challenges can be made "at the start of the combat round" (my emphasis).
I assume the distinction is on purpose, so Make Way! is indeed limited to the beginning of the entire combat.

But as T10 remarked there is a good alternative: combat reform.

Laminar
22-07-2012, 19:01
LiddelHart, the distinction between round of combat and combat isn't so clear. It can be argued that round of combat is the first phase of a combat, there are four separate phases of combat: 1. Fight a round of close combat, 2. Calculate combat result, 3. Loser takes a break test and 4. Flee and pursue. Plain simple "combat" is then the collection of those phases and is only for that turn.

If Make Way! were only to be made in the first round of combat, then the word "first" would have to be there.

LiddellHart
22-07-2012, 20:23
I agree that combat and combat round are both often used, and are not always strictly separated.
I also agree that the word "first" would make things a lot clearer, and this discussion unnecessary.

But absence of "first" doesn't say all. Context is all important here IMO.
Comparing the Make Way! paragraph to the Issuing a Challenge paragraph, I stand by my point.
But I understand your reasoning and admit it isn't crystal clear.

Moss
22-07-2012, 21:04
"At the start of combat (before impact hits), if the character's unit is in combat, but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact."

The words "before impact hits" make it plenty clear to me. Impact hits happen before the first round of combat even begins, so this means a character can Make Way! only once at the start of combat.

Also, I think it's pretty funny that everyone has been putting the exclamation point at the end of Make Way!

LiddellHart
22-07-2012, 21:48
I wish I could agree as you are arguing my side, but impact hits are also mentioned concerning the timing of a challenge.
And as it's undisputed (is there something on the internet) you can issue a challenge in a further round of combat, that kind of invalidates the argument.

NitrosOkay
23-07-2012, 00:04
"At the start of combat (before impact hits), if the character's unit is in combat, but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact."

The words "before impact hits" make it plenty clear to me. Impact hits happen before the first round of combat even begins, so this means a character can Make Way! only once at the start of combat.

Also, I think it's pretty funny that everyone has been putting the exclamation point at the end of Make Way!

What happens when a chariot charges the flank of an ongoing combat and gets impact hits? Do you then get to make a make way move?

Moss
23-07-2012, 00:49
I wish I could agree as you are arguing my side, but impact hits are also mentioned concerning the timing of a challenge.
And as it's undisputed (is there something on the internet) you can issue a challenge in a further round of combat, that kind of invalidates the argument.

But in the challenges section, they actually go on to talk about further challenges in a combat. There is no such mention of extra Make Way! moves.



What happens when a chariot charges the flank of an ongoing combat and gets impact hits? Do you then get to make a make way move?

Well, I don't know what to say. I don't really have a response to that.

LiddellHart
23-07-2012, 12:44
But in the challenges section, they actually go on to talk about further challenges in a combat. There is no such mention of extra Make Way! moves.


That's exactly my point. Although the Impact Hits don't contribute, the rest of the respective paragraphs clearly state that challenges can be made in further rounds of combat, and Make Way! gets no such thing, not even implied.

dms505
24-07-2012, 16:10
So at this point it would seem to work either way and just depend on your group and/or tournament rulings. But now I have a question about the reform option to move a character. Does the reform allow you to basically reform any way you choose as long as the unit makeup rules are still met as well as the "number of models in combat" is met? So I could basically leave everything the same and move my character where ever I choose as long as there is room?

What about moving said character out of base contact with the other units entirely? Obviously this is assuming he isn't in a challenge.

What about reforming during a multi-round challenge?

Blkc57
24-07-2012, 16:41
What about moving said character out of base contact with the other units entirely?
I don't have a book with me but I thought I read in the section that its not "number of models" but in fact models in base contact may not be moved in a reform, thus you can never reform a model out of combat even if you reform someone else into his place.


What about reforming during a multi-round challenge?

Challenges do not end until one of you is dead or someone breaks from combat res. You stay in the challenge, even if moved for some reason.


EDIT POST: Ok found it page 55 combat reform " There is one special restriction on a combat reform, however- it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in base contact before the reform was made."

Moss
24-07-2012, 16:47
"... The model may be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish."

Page 55.

Edit: Haha, you were editing as I was posting. But yeah, you can only move him if you're moving him into contact with another enemy,

Smogg
24-07-2012, 17:56
P 46 bottom: "Resolve each combat completely, including any flee and pursue moves, before moving on to the next combat"

This is the only place I could find where they speak of "just" combat. However since combat must be resolved completely, then I have to assume a new combat starts the next turn involving any units still engaged.

It seems to me "start of combat" happens each turn for each close combat involving one or more units.

Moss
24-07-2012, 18:25
I think I see what you're getting at. You're saying that since they talk about "resolving" combats each turn that "start of combat" happens each turn as well; and so a character can Make Way! each turn?

The very first sentence of p52 is "Once all the models in the combat have fought, this concludes what we call a 'combat round' or 'round of close combat'."
They use the terms 'combat round' and 'round of close combat,' suggesting to me that the actual combat isn't over; only the round is over.

However, at the top of p54 they go back to talking about 'winning the combat.'
All of a sudden, I'm not so sure. Is the combat over? I thought we were talking about a round of combat.

This goes back to what they were talking about earlier: "combat" and "combat round" are used seemingly interchangeably. My point? I don't know which side is right or wrong anymore, but I don't think you can make that assertion.

Now, all of this is based on MY assumption that I actually understand your point correctly. So if not, you can ignore all of that.

Smogg
24-07-2012, 18:42
It's no worries. While I do think the terms 'combat round' and 'round of close combat' are well defined and used consistently, I would hesitate to say the same for the word "combat".

I mean sure, I get there are different ways to interpret "start of combat", and just because the combat is resolved, might not mean that it's over either. Fair point. Well I guess I would just prefer that Make way can happen each turn. Otherwise what is the start of combat if units join in late. Maybe a chariot charge in 3rd turn of that combat? Is it the beginning of the combat or the beginning of the combat from that unit's perspective? Who knows? I think it's just easier to allow for it each turn, and I don't see any rules violated if you play it that way.

Moss
24-07-2012, 18:54
And suppose a fresh unit containing a character joins an existing combat. Can that character not Make Way since it isn't a new combat?

T10
25-07-2012, 07:20
Well, a fresh unit would get to benefit from Hatred since it's its first turn of combat. I guess that's a precedent.

-T10

Quaki
25-07-2012, 12:44
And suppose a fresh unit containing a character joins an existing combat. Can that character not Make Way since it isn't a new combat?Of course he can - it's the first round of combat for his unit.