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Sh4d0w
18-07-2012, 10:13
So there seems to be alot of hate for the K'daai destroyer now especially after the recent update. So I have brought the fight to the forums. If everybody could list ways that certain armies can deal with it, all of course aimed at the greater good :)

Beastmen:
-Blackened Plate on unit of Bestigor or Mindrazored/Buffed Gor.

Bretonnia:
-HKB Lord with dragonhelm
-sword of the ladies champion or sword of heroes combo with virtue of audacity and take the dragons claw

Daemons:
-Tooled up bloodthirster (may) be able to take it.
-Plaguebearer horde to hold it up

Dark elves:
-master with the dragonhelm and crimson death on a dark steed.
-standard dreadlord, dragonhelm, pendant, 1+ armour on dark pegasus, crown as well.

Dwarfs:
-we have cannons, 2 of these with laser sighting "should" be enough to see it off
-stubborn hammerers could hold it off for a few turns
-grudge throwers could put a dent in it
-anvil halving it's move will slow it down significantly
-Dwarf Lord on Sheldbearers at it. Rune of Resistance, Rune of the Furnace, Shield, Axe with Rune of Might and MR of Smite (1+ rerollable Armor Save, 2+ vs fire, 4 S8 attacks and d6 Multiple wounds).

High elves:
-high elf dragon princes
-Folariath's Robe

Lizardmen:
-Poison
-Dragonhelm scarvet
-Lots of chaff possible to kite/redirect
-Light magic slann

Ogre Kingdoms:

Orcs n Gobos:
-posion banner+ goblin archers/even combat

Empire:
-cannons
-stank can potentially hold it up

Skaven:
-Gutter runners with poison, magic cannons, double doomwheel.

Tomb Kings:
-Necrosphinx
-Khalida + 72 archers will do too, for 12 poison wounds halved by the ward save.

Vampire counts:
-SGK: 2+ ward, Potion of Strength and Magical weapon of your choice it won't last very long
-VC Lord: Mounted 1+ 2+, Potion Strength, Magical weapon of your choice
-throw something ethereal into it

Warriors of chaos:
Chaos Lord 3++ rerolling 1's and dragonbane helm (so a 2++ rerolling 1's...wow) GW, stubborn crown, disk
Daemon Prince, 2++ fire helm.


Wood elves:
-2+ ward, Magic weapon, crown + mount to get into combat. If you have a standard life Weaver unless they get another unit into combat the destroyer won't be going anywhere.

General (every army)
-Mounted Character with a good armour save and a 2+ Flaming Ward.
-Lower its toughness (shadow magic)
-Final transmutation
-Tie it up with ethereal units
-Dragonbane/Dragonhelm

Still missing Bretonnia, Daemons, High elves and Ogres, also if someone can remember the name of "the nurgle glaive thing" would be helpful.

Rosstifer
18-07-2012, 10:42
Beastmen - Blackened Plate on unit of Bestigor or Mindrazored/Buffed Gor.

Nearly every army - Mounted Character with a good armour save and a 2+ Flaming Ward.

Yamabushi
18-07-2012, 11:03
Tomb Kings - we roll over and play dead.

The closest would be a Destroyer of Eternities King with the Dragonbane Gem and OTS. However, it is very easy to outmaneuver a M4 model that cannot march.
Catapults are useless as the beast has a 2+ ward against Flaming. Casket is so-so. Stalkers are perhaps one use only before the Kdaai moves on.

MOMUS
18-07-2012, 12:09
Lizardmen


More poison than you can shake a stick at

Dragonhelm scarvet

Lots of chaff possible to kite/redirect

Light magic slann

Yowzo
18-07-2012, 12:40
Tomb Kings - we roll over and play dead.

Thought a necrosphinx could give it a try one vs one.

Being a flier you can outmaneuver him, T8 means he's wounding you on 5s and the HKB S10 hit can swing the combat for you. And of course, you can take 3 for the price of 2 k'daai. Then you can take poison too.

Made some quick math and a sphinx holds an average 3 rounds of combat (slightly less than 2 wounds per round), there's some chance you can decapitate it or have him fail a T test, and you have the lore attribute to have him regain the odd wound.

Rudra34
18-07-2012, 13:36
Skaven - Gutter runners with poison, magic cannons, double doomwheel. Zaaap!

Malorian
18-07-2012, 15:21
Nearly every army - Mounted Character with a good armour save and a 2+ Flaming Ward.

This.

Unfortunately these aren't typically taken in standard lists. Then again you don't normally see chaos dwarfs either.

What am I doing in my lists to prepare to fight this beats? Nothing.

In the major tournaments around here I would expect to see at most 2 chaos dwarf players out of 45, which it more often being 0-1. The odds of me being paired up against them is so slight that I'm not going to spend the points on a mounted character that won't do much against any of the other armies.

If the odds are against me and I do face it then I will focus on the rest of the army while using my standard throw away units to keep it away from the main combats.

oldWitheredCorpse
18-07-2012, 16:16
Tomb Kings - we roll over and play dead.

The closest would be a Destroyer of Eternities King with the Dragonbane Gem and OTS. However, it is very easy to outmaneuver a M4 model that cannot march.
Catapults are useless as the beast has a 2+ ward against Flaming. Casket is so-so. Stalkers are perhaps one use only before the Kdaai moves on.

Khalida + 72 archers will do too, for 12 poison wounds halved by the ward save.

holtkmoq
18-07-2012, 19:43
Here is a bit of what I would do with my Dark Elf army if I happen to come across one:

1. Lower its toughness. With it needing to take a T test every turn from the second turn onwards then I thought it would make sense to help it fail these tests. Lore of Shadows The Withering and Lore of Deaths Soulblight are the 2 ways that I would be able to do this through magic and I'm sure there are other ways that different armies out there would have.

2. Bit of a long shot here but the spell Final Transmutation from the Lore of Metal would make any CD player think twice about what spells they were letting through. Get the spell off and theres a one in six chance the Destroyer is the one getting destroyed.

3. The typical hero or lord with a 2+ Flamming ward with a 1+ armour save on a Pegasus to make sure he can get into combat with it.

4. Another magic one here. The spell from Lore of Fire that gives +1 to wound with shooting or cc attacks. Cast that on a larger unit of repeater crossbows and see how long that takes to shoot the Destroyer down. The shots would be magic and would wound on 5s so thats quite a few potential wounds sticking there.

EDIT: Ignore number 4, I will leave it there just so you can see what you are ignoring if you are interested. As soon as I shut down my computer I remembered the rules for fire attacks, making this method much less effective. Enchanted Blades of Abian from the Lore of Metal would work as a boost on the repeater cross bows, making it easier to hit and giving them magical attacks.

Dark Reaper
18-07-2012, 19:45
Remember that the destroyer's ward save increases to 2+ against flaming attacks.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk 2

Da Crusha
18-07-2012, 22:21
Here is how I have lost mine so far. I have been to 3, 2 day tournaments representing chaos dwarfs and always brought a destroyer. at BAY AREA OPEN first game it attempted to support a unit of chaos dwarfs that were losing a combat badly against chaos knights. the unit lost combat again and destroyer crumbled. 2nd game, was against O&G it got killed by a unit of 100 or so poison arrows. game 3 it died from failing toughness tests somewhere around 4th turn. game 4 it died from T test and from taking a few wounds from a combat lord. game 5 id did not die but was held up by spirit hosts for the whole game.

SAWS Challenge, game 1 it got charged by a unit of great weapon ogres with a lord and bsb in the unit and got beat up and then killed by combat res in one turn of combat.. game 2 it eventually died by T tests after killing tons and tons of clanrats and slaves. game 3 it was killed by T tests and losing combat to a stank. game 4 it failed 2 T tests in a row doing 3 wounds each time, never saw combat. game 5 it was killed by a wizard with lore of beasts that turned into a mountain chimera. took a few wounds and then died from combat res.

Quake city Rumble, game 1 it attempted to support a unit of chaos dwarfs that were fighting an abom. the abom survived the destroyers attack and then did enough wounds to the chaos dwarf unit to crumble the destroyer. game 2 the destroyer was reduced to one wound by gateway, and then took a wound from a knight unit it charged on turn 2. game 3, it survived a game! game 4 it was killed by taking wounds from a tooled up WoC lord on steed, and combat res. Game 5 it survived.

so as we can see here, the destroyer only survived 3 out of 15 games. died mostly from burning itself out and losing combat res. its not that hard to kill a destroyer. also i didnt auto win every tournament either with it. combined, I went 5 wins, 1 tie and 9 losses.

Malorian
18-07-2012, 22:35
game 5 id did not die but was held up by spirit hosts for the whole game.

This warmed my black heart :D

Doommasters
19-07-2012, 00:50
Are the destroyers flamming attacks magical I think someone told me they didn't count as magical.....if so just something that is etheral into and it is going anywhere as you won't lose from CR.

SGK: 2+ ward, Potion of Strength and Magical weapon of your choice it won't last very long
VC Lord: Mounted 1+ 2+, Potion Strength, Magical weapon of your choice

Wood Elves 2+ ward, Magic weapon, crown and Annoyance of Netlings + mount to get into combat. If you have a standard life Weaver unless they get another unit into combat the destroyer won't be going anywhere.

The biggest issue is that you have to custom build something to deal with it most of the time, but hey that is something you have to consider when going into a tournmanent regardless. Just thank your lucky starts they can't get two into a normal list.

Da Crusha
19-07-2012, 00:59
Are the destroyers flamming attacks magical I think someone told me they didn't count as magical.....if so just something that is etheral into and it is going anywhere as you won't lose from CR.

no they arent magical.

mostlyharmless
19-07-2012, 04:10
I've had a few silly ideas kicking around in my head, more specifically with Empire. Aside from the obvious cannons, how about this:
Karl Franz on barded warhorse
11 inner circle knights with lances

support with 2 wizards, 1 with lore of metal, 1 with lore of light

cast enchanted blades on the knights, and then cast the time warp on them

watch the k'daii crumble as the knights tear him to pieces after Karl has his way with him.

for best results, also support with a lore of shadow wizard to cast withering/mindrazor

Of course, this is a massive investment, and is complete ludicrous that you would have to go through this much effort to kill one monster.

Da Crusha
19-07-2012, 04:34
... and is complete ludicrous that you would have to go through this much effort to kill one monster.

you wouldn't have to. cannons and stanks can do it alone and even easier with enchanted blades.

mostlyharmless
19-07-2012, 04:38
Well, as I said, that was aside from the obvious cannons. I know it's quite a shocker, but I have run Empire without cannons or stank and done very well.

Oh, for dark elves, a master with the dragonhelm and crimson death on a dark steed. That should be unpleasant for it.

Doommasters
19-07-2012, 04:52
That is a huge amount of points to deal with a single 300pt unit though, still and fun idea.

Custom hero
Unit of Knights
2 Wizards

All to deal with one guy

mostlyharmless
19-07-2012, 04:54
Which one? The Karl Franz cav hammer o' doom, or the lone dark elf with a chip on his shoulder?

Zeroth
19-07-2012, 05:23
Using my Ogres I must say I don't really know how to reliably deal with this guy, without it possibly costing me the game.

Noted I make all round lists that I can play against all my friends at the club. We all kind of do. So no tailoring lists so they are anti-chaos dwarfs/destroyer (unless of course it works against everything else).
Also we play with ETC comp, so please don't say that the solution would be not to. It's how we roll :)

Cannons? Can only have 1 with ETC comp. He is super fast, might not get that many shots in.
Mournfang? Not sure that's gonna do it, sadly.
Firebelly on a flying carpet with dragonhelm? This should keep it occupied, but I can't have this nearly 200pt model in my every game, because there is a chance I might meet Chaos Dwarfs..?
Ironguts en masse? As this is where I keep my hero's I'd be hard pressed to lose a lot of points throwing it at a destroyer.

I like the idea of lowering it's initiative, but then I'd have to rewrite my list to include another caster as Ogres must bring one Maw lore caster..

Nymie_the_Pooh
19-07-2012, 06:58
In a 3000 point game I have seen two skyfire cannons take out a destroyer and a half before that half of one could reach combat. The second probably would have fallen as well, but one of the cannons suffered a misfire in the second turn.

Between the poison spell, the poison banner, spider riders, and multiple cheap heroes spread about along with direct magic my Orcs and Goblins don't have to be altered as the few games I have seen them in the Destroyer pretty much always operates alone due to nothing else being able to keep up. I keep waffling on how I would deal with it with my chaos warriors. Direct magic is my best option there with the knights as backup, but there are better targets for the knights and I don't care for the idea of trying to take the Destroyer on with the knights. I definitely do not want to engage it with more than one unit of any type at a time no matter which of my two armies I am playing with. More units means more stuff it can take out which increases its combat resolution. Chaos Dwarfs are one example of a match up to where wolves are pretty much useless for screening so maybe I would put them on the flank with the Destroyer to keep it busy. Trying to strand the Destroyer out on a flank is about as easy to do as stranding cavalry on one side of the board, but if I can keep it busy eating a unit of warhounds a turn then it is basically the same effect.

The big thing I've seen from the few games I've watched and playing as Greenskins is that while the Destroyer can't be ignored you need to use as little as possible to actually engage it in melee. If you can deal with it without ever getting into melee then that is for the best, but if half your army engages the Destroyer then you have probably lost the game. It is excellent for distracting large chunks of an army from getting to where they are needed then leaving them out in the open and disarrayed for getting pummeled by war machines. It's sort of works like an ambushing unit in this way in that you can rarely ignore such a unit in your rear (or a fast unit in the flank like the Destroyer), but if you turn half your army to it then that unit has done its job even if it dies horribly.

mostlyharmless
19-07-2012, 07:50
That is a huge amount of points to deal with a single 300pt unit though, still and fun idea.

Custom hero
Unit of Knights
2 Wizards

All to deal with one guy

True, but the Karl Franz cav hammer o' doom can also be used to smash through other things, not just the K'Daii. The other suggestion, namely the dark elf master, is only really useful at tarpitting the K'Daii, or dealing with light cav and skirmishers, not much else.

oldWitheredCorpse
20-07-2012, 07:41
Between the poison spell, the poison banner, spider riders, and multiple cheap heroes spread about along with direct magic my Orcs and Goblins don't have to be altered as the few games I have seen them in the Destroyer pretty much always operates alone due to nothing else being able to keep up.

I don't get this: goblins have shortbows, so you can only protect a smaller part of the battlefield with them. And CD outgun O&G, so there shouldn't be any reason to run the Destroyer head first into something they can't handle.

Da Crusha
20-07-2012, 11:43
I don't get this: goblins have shortbows, so you can only protect a smaller part of the battlefield with them. And CD outgun O&G, so there shouldn't be any reason to run the Destroyer head first into something they can't handle.

well, as some one that lost a destroyer to a bunch of poison tipped goblin arrows, Id like to say we were out deployed with fewer drops and then bated. destroyers gotta get to combat as soon as possible or risk failing toughness tests and dying before doing much.

Nymie_the_Pooh
20-07-2012, 12:29
The few times I have seen the Destroyer used it operates so far away from the rest of the army that goblin archers can shoot at it from outside of range of small arms fire. Yes, the war machines can reach the goblins usually, but it's a gamble for the Chaos Dwarf player as even with poisoned attacks the Destroyer will wreck those goblin archers in close combat and there is still the rest of the army coming for their blocks and/or war machines to shoot at. It's almost like having gunline Dwarfs allied with a contingent of Inner Circle Knights the way the Destroyer works with the rest of the army. The Destroyer could be held back and reinforced with blocks of Chaos Dwarfs, but I haven't seen it used in that role yet. I think it could easily be used in that manner if it weren't for the fact that it seems that friendly units can be affected by Blazing Body. The Chaos Dwarves still get a 5+ save against it, but that can result in a couple of casualties still right there if the Chaos Dwarfs are butted up right next to it. The few games I've seen or played against it the only support for it was the war machines and the occasional spell. Otherwise it's been left out on its own. I'd have to revise my tactics if it were to be held back, but then again that seems to be the opposite of how he is currently played.

Gradek
20-07-2012, 14:57
My tactics are different. I simply won't play against the obvious FW wet dream that is the destroyer (and neither will many of my friends). Are tactic is that if enough people stand up and say no to that abomination, that the CD players will have to stop bringing that joke if they want to get a game in. Thus we defeat it by removing it from the field of battle preemptively.

Da Crusha
20-07-2012, 22:38
My tactics are different. I simply won't play against the obvious FW wet dream that is the destroyer (and neither will many of my friends). Are tactic is that if enough people stand up and say no to that abomination, that the CD players will have to stop bringing that joke if they want to get a game in. Thus we defeat it by removing it from the field of battle preemptively.

ok... I take it you don't go to many tournaments.

Doommasters
21-07-2012, 06:40
My tactics are different. I simply won't play against the obvious FW wet dream that is the destroyer (and neither will many of my friends). Are tactic is that if enough people stand up and say no to that abomination, that the CD players will have to stop bringing that joke if they want to get a game in. Thus we defeat it by removing it from the field of battle preemptively.

I agree it is very very very good for its points but I actually like playing the Chaos Dwarfs so don't mind it. No point in being a bad sport about it it isn't like the CD's are dominating tournaments or anything, just treat it like a Blood Thirster (just not quite as good).

Yowzo
23-07-2012, 08:03
This.

Unfortunately these aren't typically taken in standard lists. Then again you don't normally see chaos dwarfs either.

Well, I do.

I know there's going to be flaming attacks coming against my trolls, so having a 2+ fire ward fast character who can tie up those attacks while my trolls hack some other unit is extremely useful.

GrandmasterWang
27-07-2012, 02:46
Karl franz doesnt need the knights. With ghal maraz he can solo the beastie.

Dwarfs ~ runed (not flaming runes) cannons, bolt throwers. Grudge throwers have better targets. Characters with rune of might. I killed it in 1 round with my lord/ hammerers the first time I took it on.

Tomb kings ~ collossus with great weapon can do some damage. Necrosphinx isnt a bad match up. Poisoned arrows. Warsphinx thundercrush. Halberd tomb guard as a last resort. Bowshabti have a change to hurt it. Especially with smiting. Casket of souls can wreck it. Dragonbane gem char with other tricksters shard

To Gradek, do you also refuse to play dark elf pendant stooges? Death fisting ogres? Masque daemons? Genuine question.

I rarely use the destroyer in my cd army due to its opness and it causing a lot of the game to centre around it. I prefer to use the "uncompetitive" Siege Giant but have had cheese called even on that after a particularly dominant performance.

Hragnar Goreskull
27-07-2012, 02:49
Soulgrinder hehe

mostlyharmless
27-07-2012, 06:16
I'll have to double check the points cost of the items, but here's a fun one that is at least slightly characterful:
Chaos Lord
Mark of Khorne
Shield
That nurgle glaive thing that I can never remember
Dragon Helm
Flying Carpet

All you need to do is one unsaved wound, and that critter is now strength 2 and toughness 2 for the remainder of the game. I'd like to see him make those toughness tests now.

The build is also useful for dealing with other large gribblies and some characters that have flaming attacks.

Gradek
27-07-2012, 13:37
To Gradek, do you also refuse to play dark elf pendant stooges? Death fisting ogres? Masque daemons? Genuine question.


No, I don't. The destroyer is on a whole other plane of brokeness. None of those things you mentioned can destroy an entire army by itself and none of those are things where you have to dedicate almost all resources to destroy in order to win. The reason I won't play the destroyer is because it turns the game into my army vs his broken 325 point monster and that just isn't fun. WF simply dropped the ball on this thing and it isn't fun to play against (and isn't even really a challenge, it is more pure luck to beat it).

Rudra34
27-07-2012, 16:02
No, I don't. The destroyer is on a whole other plane of brokeness. None of those things you mentioned can destroy an entire army by itself and none of those are things where you have to dedicate almost all resources to destroy in order to win. The reason I won't play the destroyer is because it turns the game into my army vs his broken 325 point monster and that just isn't fun. WF simply dropped the ball on this thing and it isn't fun to play against (and isn't even really a challenge, it is more pure luck to beat it).

I would much rather fight one of these than an unkillable DE lord, or many other cheesy combos in the WH world.

Seeing as we have a thread going here of ways that the beast can easily be either brought down or held up, I think you are being a little dramatic. All kinda of cheese have their counters, and sometimes you just have to deal with it.

On the other hand, refusing to play with somebody because they bring a monster seems like a complete jerk move. We all get rough match-ups sometimes, it's just something that we have to deal with.

Gradek
27-07-2012, 17:34
I would much rather fight one of these than an unkillable DE lord, or many other cheesy combos in the WH world.

Seeing as we have a thread going here of ways that the beast can easily be either brought down or held up, I think you are being a little dramatic. All kinda of cheese have their counters, and sometimes you just have to deal with it.

On the other hand, refusing to play with somebody because they bring a monster seems like a complete jerk move. We all get rough match-ups sometimes, it's just something that we have to deal with.

Sorry, but no. Beating the destroyer comes down to either really good luck, or being able to get a fire resistant character into combat with it (assuming you have one and not an easy task with the destroyers 9MV and other CD artillery). Simply put, the destroyer completely takes the fun out of the game for me, so I won't waste my time playing against it.

Rudra34
27-07-2012, 17:47
Well now your just being a defeatist! Have some faith in yourself, sir or madam!

This thread has offered options: Cannons, poison, locking it up with ethereal units, locking it up with fire-resistant characters, lowering toughness with shadow magic, charge-baiting, throwing chaff at it, magic attacks (enchanted blades on a high S unit will still be awesome against the thing).

There is way more to it than, "luck." You may hate that you have to deal with it before it comes in a beat-sticks your units, but this is the same with HPAs, Hydras, Steamtanks, and a handful of other beasties in the game which are all much cheaper than the destroyer.

mostlyharmless
27-07-2012, 19:20
I would much rather fight one of these than an unkillable DE lord, or many other cheesy combos in the WH world.

Seeing as we have a thread going here of ways that the beast can easily be either brought down or held up, I think you are being a little dramatic. All kinda of cheese have their counters, and sometimes you just have to deal with it.

On the other hand, refusing to play with somebody because they bring a monster seems like a complete jerk move. We all get rough match-ups sometimes, it's just something that we have to deal with.

That Dark Elf lord isn't unkillable. You're clearly not using the right methods. He crumples to massed shooting, ie chaos dwarf blunderbusses. The key is to hit him with alot of low strength attacks, better if they ignore armour, like every single damage spell from Lore of Metal, which also don't have a strength value, or every damage spell from Lore of Death.

Rudra34
27-07-2012, 19:23
Yes I am aware that there are ways to deal with the DE lord, or any cheese for that matter. Calling it the 'unkillable' DE lord is just me using a term which people recognize as a specific set-up.

mostlyharmless
27-07-2012, 19:53
Here's the difference: it takes a single wizard to kill the dark elf. It take an entire army to kill the K'Daai.

Rudra34
27-07-2012, 19:59
Here's the difference: it takes a single wizard to kill the dark elf. It take an entire army to kill the K'Daai.

A single wizard assuming you have access to and took the specific lore that you are mentioning with no prior knowledge of what armies or lists you would be playing against. I used the lord as ONE example, let it go :)

Sh4d0w
28-07-2012, 11:50
it's been updated guys but we still need some for a few armies

BigbyWolf
28-07-2012, 12:55
it's been updated guys but we still need some for a few armies

Had a quick look at the first post, for bretts, what about a HKB Lord with dragonhelm? Ogres, can only think of Ironblasters.

Agoz
28-07-2012, 15:49
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned high elf dragon princes, they do get a 2+ ward against flaming attacks after all.

GodlessM
28-07-2012, 16:07
So there seems to be alot of hate for the K'daai destroyer now especially after the recent update.

I don't understand the bit in bold above; the latest Forgeworld update nerfed the Destroyer, so why would it be especially hated since getting nerfed?

Lord Inquisitor
28-07-2012, 16:15
What nerf?

You don't mean the change from -1 to wound to re-roll successful wounds do you? It might seem like a nerf but it actually made the damn thing tougher.

Rudra34
28-07-2012, 16:17
The nerf was less than impressive. S3+4 will wound a whopping 1/36 hits instead of never, but s5 is down from 1/6 hits wounding to 1/9 wounding; s6 went from 1/3 to 1/4. Then it still gets to make saves.

Mozzamanx
28-07-2012, 16:22
They didn't nerf it so much as move the goalposts. The previous rules were -1 to wound it, meaning that it was immune to most infantry while specialists could still deal with it. The new rules demand a reroll for the wound roll.
While this obviously means that everyone can now have a crack at it, many units which could previously kill it, are now less effective at doing so.

S3 and S4 now have a microscopic chance to hurt it. S5-7 is actually less effective, while S8-10 is essentially identical. While I'm sure the grunts are loving that double-6 chance, it means that all the traditional monster-hunting troops are worse off. I wouldn't really call that a nerf.

Lord Inquisitor
28-07-2012, 16:35
Exactly. When we're taking about, what, 1 in 144 S3/4 attacks wounding, that's pretty close to impossible anyway. But the S5-7 great weapons, the only things that can really hurt it, got harder to wound it. Far from a nerf it became more durable against anything that can reasonably threaten it.

Shandowner
28-07-2012, 17:32
nothing can harm the destroyer...mwahahaa

Lord Inquisitor
28-07-2012, 17:38
Oh it can and will die. Let's just not call the FAQ a "nerf"...

Soundwave
28-07-2012, 18:49
I have not faced the incredible hulk being the destroyer but i think my Dark elf Dreadlord packing the exo axe under my favorite a.s.f banner should quite capably shred this thing? It is a very effective combo against skaven(bells and furnace) as well as all the khemirian "big things"?

Mozzamanx
28-07-2012, 19:10
You would quite happily sneak a wound or two through it, which in turn would take something like 3-4 wounds off. However, if he's got the Axe then no Pendant and a poor Armour Save, meaning that the Destroyer should eat him in turn. Never underestimate just how much damage it can focus onto a single model. Very, very few things will survive a straight fight with him.

EDIT- Actually, if he had a Dragonbane/Dragonhelm on him, he would be more than happy. That item remains one of the best counters to the K'Daii, provided you have the gear to smack it down in turn. Without that 2++ though, he would be out in a single round.

Von Wibble
28-07-2012, 20:57
Isn't it a Daemon? In which case Lore of Light Banishment is great.

High elves can take 2 swords with fixed "to wound" rolls.

Tomb Kings usually do have the aforementioned 2+ save and 2+ ward vs flaming attacks. At least, mine does.

Withering (? Spell from shadow that lowers T by D3) and let it simply kill itself.

GodlessM
28-07-2012, 22:33
Right, it was much better being invulnerable to most of the stuff in the game :rolleyes:

Lord Inquisitor
28-07-2012, 23:06
:eyebrows:

It was a stupid mechanic before to be sure, but it is still all but invulnerable to all the same things after the errata. To kill the destroyer, you'd need to throw a horde of halberdiers at it for 41 rounds of combat assuming you pass all your fear and break tests of course. In return, the destroyer kills 12 halberdiers a round.

So it only takes 522 halberdiers 41 rounds of combat.

Clearly you aren't going to hurt it with S3 or S4 attacks so you'll have to use S5+ and the destroyer got tougher against those attacks. In no way shape or form was it actually a nerf to the Destroyer.

hawo0313
29-07-2012, 00:18
for brets (apart from the Hkb lord) there is also the sword of the ladies champion (increAse S to always wound on a 3+) or sword of heroes (+1s and wounds are D3)combo with virtue of audacity (re-roll to hit and wound against enemies S 5 or higher) and can still take the dragons claw for a 5+ all round ward save and 2++ against flaming

I just put that in there because i think that getting HKB on itwill be hard after its forced re-roll to wound

Mozzamanx
29-07-2012, 11:33
146614

Because I have far too much time on my hands, I made you all a graph. It shows the chance of wounding the K'Daii depending on the strength of the attack, with both the old and new rules plotted.

As you can see, not a lot has changed. The new rule is better for both high-S and low-S attacks, but still a small enough chance to be negligible. While the ability to wound with S3 is nice of them, its less than 3% even without factoring the hit and wound. Realistically you will need over 100 attacks *per wound*.
The blue line represents the old data. While it is zero at the start and (very slightly) lower at the end, it is noticeably better in the middle. This is why you cannot consider it a nerf- Giving us a microscopic chance to hurt it with S3/4 does not balance out the reduced chance from the units who could actually hurt it before.

Graphs are fun!

Zeroth
30-07-2012, 07:05
The bugger got too high ld to use death magic as well:mad:

It got T7 right? So even if you reduce it's T by d3, only a roll of 5 and 6 will help and then "only" by 16.7%.

I hope to never see this model in my meta :p

Bladelord
30-07-2012, 07:08
I believe you should add Folariath's Robe to the list for High Elves. If you're using Lore of Shadow Steed of Shadows+lore attribute won't make it too hard to get into combat with it.

oldWitheredCorpse
30-07-2012, 10:23
T6 with re-rolls to wound is basically the same as T6 and and 1+ armour save, except against poison and that things that don't allow armour saves still need to re-roll successful to-wound rolls.

CauCaSus
01-08-2012, 07:39
Annoyance of Netlings won't work as it only works in challenges and the K'daai isn't a character.

ScItRiX
14-08-2012, 18:49
Teclis + Miasma + pit of shades. Hard to pass an Int test on a 1. The last tournament I went to I faced this thing game 1 and killed it turn 1. That pretty much sealed it.

Widowmaker13
25-08-2012, 06:20
Daemons : Have no trouble handiling this thing, and everything listed here works equally well against other Army builds.

1.) Changeling + Unit of Horrors w/ Herald + BUFFS
Buff is usually Mindrazor, but others can be equally effective. Pulled this off twice already since Destroyers rush into the nearest unit. Making it T 3 causes it to go boom so much faster...
So some Horrors die to the Flaming body rule, or the now oh so scary STR 3 thunderstomp..no big deal just have some Lore of life handy.

2.) Greater Daemon
This one varies with build, but results are the same.
- Max Close Combat Bloodthirster can simply kill it outright. I mean really, STR anywhere from 6 - 10 / # of attacks 7 - 2d6+2. Thirster will win most of the time..but this one is not cost effective.
- GUO: Miasma of Pestilence + Balesword. Need we say more on this one ?
- LOC :spells, spells, and more spells. The combos here are endless... buff a unit, debuff the destroyer, Turn into a Mountain Chimera... really whatever you have handy
- KOS ; yeah LD bomb still works here. If it can't attack you it ain't that scary. You can even tie 2 Destroyers up at the same time while being safe from artillery, and still walk away smiling.

3.) Skulltaker
yep, can still get its head taken off. True it is unlikely..but it would still be epic. Reduce its Toughness to up your chances, and let the Taker of Skulls do his thing.

4.) Plague Deathstar
Throw a big ol' mob of PB at it with a nice little boost from Epidemus, and a Throne of Vines enhanced Flesh to Stone kindly bestowed by a friendly LOC or Herald. Misama of Pestilence if you running an all Nurgle build works just fine too. But really Toughness 8 PBs are just silly.

Honestly, the Chaos dwarf artillery is far more problematic than the K'daai. They are, like Daemons, a small but elite force that if used correctly can be a tough nut to crack. I personally would thank my opponent for choosing to spend 600 pts on K'daai Destroyers instead of using Dread Quakes, Flame Cannons, and Skull Crushers. It shows he is a limited tactican who relies on an arguably overpowered & under point costed model instead of building a balanced force. I run Chaos dwarves, and have yet to field a destroyer or a Bale Taurus. The regular K'daai and Artillery pieces get the job done just fine on their own. Hobogoblins are not to be underestimated, and the Renders will be a fine addition when they arrive.

TheOneHawk
26-08-2012, 23:26
The Nurgle Glaive thing is the Glaive of Putrefaction. Didn't read the whole thread but saw that it wasn't being called that in the first post.

Kalandros
27-08-2012, 03:41
Skulltaker does not have Heroic Killing Blow outside challenges, can't challenge the KD

Askari
27-08-2012, 18:26
Empire:

Anything with a Runefang?

Templar Grand Master with Dragonbane Gem and Runefang is pretty cheap and is pretty useful anyway. He also has a solid armour save and can't be Thunderstomped. Easy access to re-rolls to hit and/or +1 to hit make him quite nasty. Empire can spam Banishment with a Coven of Light as well, also reasonably useful against other armies anyway.

Hashut-Up!
27-08-2012, 20:16
Is the K'daii destroyer really that much nastier than other top-tier monsters? It still has many of the same vulnerabilities as the less recent monsters and can be beat in the same way. Cannons and other warmachines are very effective, as is poison in any form. The toughness test it has to take can be manipulated by a couple armies/lores of magic and can help kill it. It's unstable, so a combined arms tactic works well at removing it fairly quickly and effectively. Hitting it with 2 large units or a large unit and another monster will typically be enough assuming the monster or one of the units can do wounds to it and the unit provides ranks/banner and the rare wound.

Holding it up isn't even that tough. A bus of disposable units works against it with a bsb nearby. Redirecting it is easy as well due to it having frenzy. The firebane helm and gem are both great against it too. It's all about hitting the destroyer at the right time with the right mix of units if you can't shoot it to bits. If you try to fight it too early or match up something in a 1 vs 1 kind of scenario you'll likely lose (unless you're packing a bloodthirster or GUO) as not much else compares to it in close combat, but that should be expected for a 300+ point model. Deployment is the best tool to help deal with the destroyer, because if you don't deploy well it will zip up a weak flank and crush it quickly. Deploy with a plan of which units you want to tangle with it at what time and it won't seem as bad.

Lord Inquisitor
27-08-2012, 21:57
Is the K'daii destroyer really that much nastier than other top-tier monsters?
Which is to say, compared with other monsters regarded as overpowered/undercosted like hydra and abombs, right? But yes, it's much, much tougher than an abomb with far more reliable damage output. It doesn't have the weaknesses these other monsters have. Fire - the destroyer is tougher! Spells, it has good characteristics like initiative. Speed - hydra and abombs aren't that fast or are unreliable, the destroyer is M9.


It still has many of the same vulnerabilities as the less recent monsters and can be beat in the same way. Cannons and other warmachines are very effective, as is poison in any form. The toughness test it has to take can be manipulated by a couple armies/lores of magic and can help kill it. It's unstable, so a combined arms tactic works well at removing it fairly quickly and effectively. Hitting it with 2 large units or a large unit and another monster will typically be enough assuming the monster or one of the units can do wounds to it and the unit provides ranks/banner and the rare wound.
Uh, say what now? Never mind it's 8 S7 attacks or it's thunderstomp, it inflicts a S4 hit on every model in contact. Hitting it with a unit of infantry typically adds bucketloads of combat res to the Destroyer. Killing it is typically the only way. If you actually do enough wounds and static res for unstable to come into play, it's probably dead anyway. As for cannons and war machines, it's tougher than any other monster out there.


Holding it up isn't even that tough. A bus of disposable units works against it with a bsb nearby.
:eyebrows: Minimum 5 frontage, it still kills 11 troopers a turn on average. More if wider frontage. It'll wipe out any unit that isn't 50+ in two turns. This assumes you can charge a M9 monster with M4 infantry, which is pretty close to impossible if the CD player has a clue.


Redirecting it is easy as well due to it having frenzy.
Backed up with a Ld10 general, redirecting it is not so easy.


It's all about hitting the destroyer at the right time with the right mix of units if you can't shoot it to bits. If you try to fight it too early or match up something in a 1 vs 1 kind of scenario you'll likely lose (unless you're packing a bloodthirster or GUO) as not much else compares to it in close combat, but that should be expected for a 300+ point model.
A destroyer is a pretty good fight for a bloodthirster or other GD but that's part of the problem - I don't expect a 300+ model to be as good as a 600+ model.

Hashut-Up!
27-08-2012, 23:51
So I'll admit some of my ideas aren't the best strategy, but this thread is about holding it up as well as killing it. Sometimes there just won't be a way to deal with a part of your opponents army (like Fateweaver, man is that bugger hard to kill or even pin down!) but these are all possibilities that COULD work against the Destroyer. You have some good points, Lord Inquisitor, but not all of them are going to pan out in every game, every turn, every combat. An example and food for thought: It's pretty tough to keep a M3 general within 12 inches of the destroyer, and if you do then your general is on the front lines and at risk, so that opens up opportunities for a destroyers opponents to kill other vital pieces of the chaos dwarf army, and maybe in that lies a key to fighting against a destroyer: distractions for it while you take out the softer, more vulnerable pieces of the army if you cannot outright kill the giant beasty. It's not like the chaos dwarf player is going to have overwhelming numbers to go along with the K'daii and war machines, so pretty much every unit you can kill hampers the CD player.

About spells being no good against the destroyer, why not hit the dwarfs with them instead? Pit of Shades and Purple Sun will annihilate a unit of infernal guard like a hot knife through butter. Does this help deal with the destroyer? Sort of. With less of the chaos dwarf army to worry about, you'll free up more stuff to help use against the destroyer in the later turns. As for fire not working, it's just a change in the meta-game that people are going to have to start preparing for. My bus suggestion wasn't meant to kill it through unstable or via any other means, just to hold it off while you attempt to kill the rest of the chaos dwarf units. Yes a lot of models will die fighting it, but hey, better to have it go through 40+ of a random cheap core choice then rampage through the army unchecked or smashing smaller units/other monsters every turn.

I'll admit right off the bat I think the Destroyer is the top monster in the game, but maybe instead of focusing on ways to beat the destroyer this type of thread should talk about ways to fight against the chaos dwarf army as a whole.

Don Zeko
29-08-2012, 16:49
That Dark Elf lord isn't unkillable. You're clearly not using the right methods. He crumples to massed shooting, ie chaos dwarf blunderbusses. The key is to hit him with alot of low strength attacks, better if they ignore armour, like every single damage spell from Lore of Metal, which also don't have a strength value, or every damage spell from Lore of Death.

This is only good advice if the DE player has no idea what he's doing. The standard build includes a dragonhelm and a 1+ armor save, so you need massed low-strength hits that ignore armor or, better yet, anything that ignores armor and doesn't have a strength value.

rocdocta
13-02-2013, 02:31
just use 3 cheap redirectors. take it out of the game forever. fast cav will make a KD player weep. mean while the rest of your army is chewing up his.

Kalandros
13-02-2013, 10:42
I killed one this weekend before losing the rest of my army to magma cannons, fire ball spam and lore of hashut~ He failed his LD test and ran into plaguebearers, poisoned to death with reroll to wound for whatever had hit without poison.
Felt good.

Vipoid
15-02-2013, 10:09
Vampire counts:
-SGK: 2+ ward, Potion of Strength and Magical weapon of your choice it won't last very long
-VC Lord: Mounted 1+ 2+, Potion Strength, Magical weapon of your choice

Why potions of strength in both cases? :confused:

Surely Ogre Blade and OTS would be better. With potion of strength, you're relying an awful lot on one round of attacks, since after that you only wound it 1/9 times. And, because it gets its full ward save, the odds of wounding it are only marginally better (1.51 wounds, compared to 1.48 with Ogre Blade and OTS). I guess you could then take the blade of +2 attacks, but if you're tailoring him to kill a monster, it seems like Ogre Blade would be a more sensible investment.

Hell, the Ghoul King could even have Giant Blade, which would give him the same chance to wound as the potion of strength, but every round.

tmarichards
15-02-2013, 10:30
There is a nice combination of common magic items that you can put together to hold it off for a little while, which is Shrieking Blade (so that the blocking character doesn't fail any Terror tests) and Dragonbane Gem or Dragonhelm (for the 2++ vs the monster's attacks). The most important part of this is that the character MUST be mounted, or they will just be Thunderstomped. Ideally, they should have 3 wounds (so on an eagle or somesuch) so that they last as long as possible.

Depending on which 2++ you take, you could also take the OTS or Charmed Shield.

herohammer
21-02-2013, 17:14
The necrosphinx is really quite poor against the destroyer since it has to reroll its hkb...

Montegue
22-02-2013, 13:51
For Dwarfs, if it gets into combat through two cannons and a GT with Rune of Accuracy, you can throw a Dwarf Lord on Sheldbearers at it. Rune of Resistance, Rune of the Furnace, Shield, Axe with Rune of Might and MR of Smite.

1+ rerollable Armor Save, 2+ vs fire, 4 S8 attacks and d6 Multiple wounds.

tmr8188
22-02-2013, 19:53
Bruiser with other tricksters shard, warrior bane (the +5 to wound sword) , dragon bane gem, enchanted shield, and heavy armor will probably take care of him for the whole game. Extra armor for if the chaos dwarf player throws a wolf khan your way to try and redirect you.

Glen_Savet
23-02-2013, 21:03
Brets have the HKB vow. Lord on a peg with that, a magic sword, dragonbane gem and charmed shield does pretty well. Of course, it does pretty well against most big gribblies
...

mistrmoon
01-03-2013, 02:06
The bugger got too high ld to use death magic as well:mad:

It got T7 right? So even if you reduce it's T by d3, only a roll of 5 and 6 will help and then "only" by 16.7%.

I hope to never see this model in my meta :p

It's 'only' T6.

The problem with a lot of the counters people have come up with is that first you need to catch him, not so easy with a M9 single model unit. Also only a very large unit will hold him down for more than 1 combat phase. Lets not forget how easy it is to give him hatred.

Da Crusha
01-03-2013, 11:34
The problem with a lot of the counters people have come up with is that first you need to catch him, not so easy with a M9 single model unit. Also only a very large unit will hold him down for more than 1 combat phase. Lets not forget how easy it is to give him hatred.

the unit doesn't have to be that big, just needs to have one rank or more to be steadfast.

SilasOfTheLambs
01-03-2013, 16:32
Well, daemon prince with the dragonbane gem is so much better than this thing that there's basically no comparison. So there's that.

Lord Inquisitor
01-03-2013, 17:34
Well, daemon prince with the dragonbane gem is so much better than this thing that there's basically no comparison. So there's that.

Yes, a daemon prince should take him out without too much sweat. If he's WoC of course. This thing will still trash DoC daemon princes and greater daemons. Without the old gifts it's hard to see how any of the new GDs could possibly hold a candle to this thing. I used to Ld-bomb it quite easily but that's gone along with the other DoC solutions. It's all but immune to the new daemonic cannons.

Targ Ironfist
01-03-2013, 23:29
K´Dai is nasty. Yes.

Dealing with it will depend on how much will the CD player let you. What if he is cunning enough to keep the K´Dai in the generals 12"?
That can be done for first two turns with an offensive army.

And what if the CD is clever enough to support the K´Dai with an Iron daemon and lets say a unit of Bull centaur renders? With a solid artillery support, of course... :-)

CDs can be a pretty offensive army now.

The K´Dai warrants the importance of a Dragon bane gem/Dragon helm/ Rune of Furnace fighter in the army.

I also second Montegues Dwarf lord for killing it. Far more reliable than the cannon way. (The beastie is fast like hell).