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b_blair00
07-06-2005, 05:07
I did not see one of these threads for Tomb Kings and thought that this forum could use one.

zephyro
07-06-2005, 14:39
Finnaly, a TK tactics thread :p .

I remember there being a big tactica someone made about TK on the old version of portent, but as there ain't anymore, I suggest we could make a new one. (with some of you guys who want to help)

At least I would gladly help to make a tactica, or something like that.

Zephyroi

Wez
07-06-2005, 17:20
Here's a link to the old thread. It's not working atm, but it may in the future (old portent seems to go and come again, although obviously you can no longer post there).

http://forums.portent.net/showthread.php?t=134268502&goto=lastpost

Anyway, I figure I should take some part in this thread (seeing as I started the old one), even if I rarely play khemri now.

Tactica threads tend to 'spark-off' when people ask questions. Without questions, it's as if you're typing to no-one.

-Wez

Commander X
07-06-2005, 17:26
Ok, then I'll be the one to ask the first question :D

What do you advice as equipment for a Tomb Prince?
At the moment I use just GW and Armour of the Ages, but am thinking of changing it to Spear of Antarhak, Enchanted Shield, and Light Armour. Is one of those any good, or should I try something entirely different?

Wez
07-06-2005, 17:57
Ok, then I'll be the one to ask the first question :D

What do you advice as equipment for a Tomb Prince?
At the moment I use just GW and Armour of the Ages, but am thinking of changing it to Spear of Antarhak, Enchanted Shield, and Light Armour. Is one of those any good, or should I try something entirely different?

The Golden Ankhra is a lot better than all those other items mentioned imo. By ignoring 1/2 of all wounds you suffer (4+ ward), it effectively* doubles your wounds. How much would you pay for a +4wounds item? How much is the golden ankhra?:eek:

The spear, enchanted shield and light armour looks good on paper. However it makes your king weak in combat (spear only grants +1S when you're charging and mounted on a chariot), is rarely useful (getting one wound back for every one you do, isn't much use when your kings too weak to kill tough things) and you still have a mediocre armour save. It's also expensive, considering how little effect it has compared to a great weapon and ankhra.

A great weapon is imo the best weapon to give him. Striking last has no effect when you're charging/being charged, and with his rubbish initiative, going last in subsequent rounds really isn't a hindrance!

*Exceptions apply, for example when you can't use a ward save)

-Wez

Commander X
07-06-2005, 20:07
Doubling my wounds gives me only 6 ;)

5+ Armor save and 4 wounds gives me an effective 6 wounds.
4+ Ward save and 3 wounds also gives me an effective 6 wounds.
Only difference is that there is more chance you get to use the Wardsave in the first place.

Strange how everyone around here(the here-here, not Portent.) is of the opinion that exactly that: G. Ankhra + GW is a bad idea.(And it actually was the first thing I came up with, I'd better do the thinking myself next time I ask advice for a list :rolleyes:)

b_blair00
07-06-2005, 21:57
Alright, lets start with the HQ

Which HQ's do you advise taking, and wht wargear should be taken with them?

Is a tomb king better on foot or on chariot?

Star.Scream
08-06-2005, 05:48
>>>>>In regards to equipment for a Prince, often a GW is all the weapon he needs, 3 attacks at str6 is nothing to laugh at. However, it does depends on the style of your gaming (which is often determined by which Lord you take) and also how many points the battle is. I myself use the TP (Tomb Prince) more as a support charcter, not a hero killer, although he is a match for some other armies lord choices simply with a great weapon. The most common item I use form my TP is the Chariot of Fire; and that is ofcourse because I mounted him in a unit of chariots half the time.



Alright, lets start with the HQ

Which HQ's do you advise taking, and wht wargear should be taken with them?

Is a tomb king better on foot or on chariot?

>>>>>Ah, this should be the start of hte great TK deliema for 2k armies; Tomb King(TK) or High Liche Priest (HLP). I will start off by saying which of these two you choose determiens (for the most part) what kind of army you are running, a TK for more aggressive combat orientated army, and a HLP for more of a sit back and shoot army. It is mostly a choice of gaming style.

I myself prefer the TK, I like taking Chariots as core, and mostly because it fits my style of play. As Wez already mentioned, the Golden Ankhra effectivly doubles your wounds with a 4+ ward save at T5, this is very cost effective. I used to like the spear of antark (sp?) and the Armor of the Ages, but they dont match for effectives, a TK with the Ankhra and a GW is still very capable of dealing out some major hurt; and I do mean major, S7.

As for effectivness, the TK is vialbe in either a chariot or on foot. Most people will tell you that if he is on foot that the Destroyer of Eternities is almost a must have; while I'm not sure if it is a must have, it defenitly has its uses. It grants him with the ability to mow down rank in file troops with its special attacks, and also gives him killing blow for when he is in a challenge; it is very multi purpose. It is alost a point sink at 70pts, but well worth it most of the time. I myself prefer him in a chariot (for fluff reasons really, where else would a King of Khemeri lead from ? :D ), but I think the TK is a devistating opponent in either situation.

What should also be mentioned; however obvious it is; is that the Cloak of the Dunes should almost always be considerd for your Hierophant, either as HLP or a regualr LP; in either case it enables him with invaluable movement that can position himself for timely incantations and get himself out of tight spots; it simply is a must-have for a Hierophant in my opinion, 20pts well spent.

Spider
08-06-2005, 15:24
My TK always gets a chariot and the spear of Antarak(sp?)...i find the ability to regain wounds due to the spear to be invaluble, and against High Elves/Skaven (my usual foes) a strength 6 on the charge and 5 the rest of the time is more than sufficent, st7 from a greatweapon would just be overkill.

When taking a King/Prince in a chariot does anyone not take the Chariot of Fire? Apart from its silly name it is a very good item i feel.

My Prince tends to lead my Tomb Guard, i like sword of might/enchanted sheild/Vambraces of sun. This fellow actually killed a Elf Highborn on a griffon in my last game...very funny.

zephyro
08-06-2005, 17:09
I always use the collar of shapesh over the ankhra first, but most of the time my ankhra is already by my casket of souls priest, or I just don't use em, because the collar is cheaper and almost as good.

Princes are most of the time just plain guys with a GW and some armor (not magic).
If they are important for defense, I tool them up for that, if I want them for offence purposes, I'll tool them for that. But mostly, just plain princes with a GW and LA+shield.

I prefer a LHP over a TK.

Why you ask?

Firstly, the TK army will always need magic to win the game for them (or you will have to be very lucky).
in a TK led army, you almost always need something like tk/lp/lp/lp+banner+staff to get some spells off. THis however will cost alot to use, and won't give you many points left for other units.

In a LHP led army, I prefer lhp/lp/tp+banner+staff. THis gives me 11 normal PD (with jar 1 turn 13) while stayinmg cheap and having a lot of points left for other troops.

Zephyro

Wez
08-06-2005, 17:15
When taking a King/Prince in a chariot does anyone not take the Chariot of Fire? Apart from its silly name it is a very good item i feel.

I don't take it. 70pts for a chariot that does D6+1 S4 impacts hits? Other armies would laugh at that. You're pay 25 extra points, for an average of 2.5 extra S4 attacks. I'd rather not take that.


Doubling my wounds gives me only 6
Oops, thought you meant tomb king:p


Which HQ's do you advise taking, and wht wargear should be taken with them?
I'd advise a tomb king and 2-3 liches in 2000pts. The hierophant should probably take cloak of dunes and hieratic jar, while I've mentioned what I think is best on a tomb king.

Is a tomb king better on foot or on chariot?
Depends. If you want a defensive army, stay on foot, but if you're attacking a chariot is a must.

Completely off topic: What's your username about? Your name? Something to do with Tony Blair?

-Wez

Commander X
08-06-2005, 17:56
Yay, it's alive! We did it! :D

For <2000 I prefer Prince+2 Priests, or 2 Princes+Priest, anyhow using all 3 slots to get enough casters in the list.

For 2000 I'd use the High Priest, normal Priest, and 2 Princes. Not because I like it that much, but because of the need to get the spells to atleast work half-decent.

@Wez:
Yep, when I ask about Tomb Princes, it's obvious I want to know about Tomb Kings :p ;)

@Zephyro:
You say it is cheap to use the second way of doing it, but although I use it myself, I still think 245 points is pretty expensive for a single character. Same goes with the staff, 45 points to get more chance of getting a spell off seems a bit too expensive.

Star.Scream
08-06-2005, 18:16
I still think 245 points is pretty expensive for a single character. Same goes with the staff, 45 points to get more chance of getting a spell off seems a bit too expensive.

Which staff are we talking about here? I read Zephyro's post by didnt see which staff he is refing to, although I am pretty sure he is talking about the Staff of Ravening. I honestly dislike this item a lot, even if it can unload 18 hits, its at S2, which is hardly even useful against elves, let alone a lot of the tougher opponetns in the Warhammer world.

If your going to invest that many points on a single character Nefra's Plaque would be a far better choice, Re-roling 2 incantations on 3D6 is a huge atvantage; rarely wil you roll under 7, at least whenever I've used it.

b_blair00
08-06-2005, 20:32
Alrighty, just to make sure that this does not turn into a debate about which HQ's to use. Lets switch to troops.

Is a foot sloger army better then a chariot army, or is it better to take a skeleton horseman army. Or is it better to take a combination of all the above. If the last one, what combination do you suggest. And what HQ's do you normally put in which units.

Wez

My name is Bruce Blair

Mooglemen
08-06-2005, 22:40
I go for the combination army for two reasons:
1) I don't own enough units to swing one way or another
2) TKs are one of those rare armies which work the best when balanced.

Sure, we have the ability to move faster than any other army due to magic, but thats not enough on its own because our units are generally weaker than others. So, while an all fast attack army sounds nice in theory, without ranks of infantry to work in conjunction with the fast cav, the cav will come out on the losing end of many combats (particularly if you are using the horsemen). Tomb King cav IMO is best used the same as any other cav in the game. That is, to support rank and rile with flank/rear charges. At this, our cavalry excels because of our ability to magically charge.
This seems like a good point to mention something a lot of people talk about (but I haven't tried because I can't bring myself to paint more heavy cav), which is the 16 man heavy horse unit with the war banner. Some call it the perfect unit killer, others call it a point-sink of epic proportions... maybe someone who's actually used it can shed some light on this.

As for the footslogging army, I think it would work better than the all cav, but it still lacks the necessary balance that I feel TKs need. This sort of army would probably take a Casket and catapult (is there any other rare choice to take with the casket?... i think not). Add some big blocks of archers and enough magical support to pump out the shots and it could work.

But I digress... I generally use something like this for my balanced lists.

TK, 2 LP and the Icon bearer. (I know, no one likes the Icon bearer but me)
3 blocks of 25 Skellies
7 Heavy Horse (Icon bearer here)
3 Chariots (TK goes with them in chariot)
2 Tomb Scorpions
4 Ushabti
From this base, I mix up the rares to suit my preference (though I shy away from the bone giant usually).

The Skellies and Ushabti provide the slow moving base with the Heavy Horse, Chariots and Scorpions used as support.
It works well enough for my tastes, and feels like a good balance between speed and ranks.


For a very detailed series of tomb kings tactics articles, check out Plasmapuff's TACT series. (http://invisionfree.com/forums/Warhammer_Palace/index.php?showtopic=4483)

CarlostheCraven
09-06-2005, 04:45
I prefer the mostly ground and pound style TK approach

Most of the time I employ a refused flank strategy, forcing the enemy to come to me

My tactics evolved over the course of a two month campaign where I played an average of 3-4 times a week, fighting primarily against a mobile TK army, Brets, OK, VC, Empire, and Skaven (Eshin, Skyre, and Pestilince). The Games generally ranged from between 2k and 2500 pts.

Characters
I started with the High Priest with Staff of Ravening, Cloak of the Dunes, and Collar of Shapesh.
Priest with 2DS
two princes - one with Golden Ankhra and GW, the other with sword of Setep (no armour save) and occasionally rode a chariot
Eventually I changed to a King with the Destroyer of Eternities and Collar of Shapesh, because while my army had magic it lacked punch. A king still gives two successful spells cast a phase and usually by turn 3 or 4 my opponents magic defences were depleted.

Core - these units varied in size by the points value of the gave being played
2 x 10-12 Skeleton archers
30-40 Sketeton Warriors with LA, Sh, HW - If I was Using a TK the Banner o/Undying Legion
3-5 Tomb Swarms

Special
1 Scorpion
25 Tomb Guard with Icon of Rakaph (SP?)
3-5 Ushabti
Either 3-6 Carrion or another Scorpion

Rare
Two Screeming Skull Catapults with Skulls of the Foe if I had room

Tactically I would set up the catapult on a flank with just the tomb swarms to screen for them (I love the Small rule). On the Opposite flank I would place the archers up front to absorb early missile fire, magic as well as set up counter charges and poor overrun options
Behind them I would set up the Skelies and Tomb Guard with the Ushabti trailing between them. My Scorps very rarely tunnelled, unless my opponent had an "artillery hill", and My carrion either hunted war machines or run down fleeing units

Incidentally my record in the campaign was 15W - 1D - 2L and First Place overall

zephyro
09-06-2005, 15:05
You say it is cheap to use the second way of doing it, but although I use it myself, I still think 245 points is pretty expensive for a single character. Same goes with the staff, 45 points to get more chance of getting a spell off seems a bit too expensive.


Which staff are we talking about here? I read Zephyro's post by didnt see which staff he is refing to, although I am pretty sure he is talking about the Staff of Ravening. I honestly dislike this item a lot, even if it can unload 18 hits, its at S2, which is hardly even useful against elves, let alone a lot of the tougher opponetns in the Warhammer world.

Yes, I am talking about the staff of ravenging.

My regular HLP options would be the cloack of dunes+staff of ravenging.

It really comes in handy against skirmishers, flyers etc. who try to sneak up to your catapults and such, and is always worth it's point in the way I use it.

What is also your favorite unit??(not powerfull, but favo. So fluff and such too, just overall)

Mine has to be the CoS. It has got quite a good effect, which has the potential to do alot of the damage, and so your opponents fear it.(mostly) They also always save up dice for it, while my important spells (mainly movement spells) can just go through. (they ussualy use 3-4 dispel dice) It also got some nice effects for dispelling, which the TK army can need real hard against other heavy magic armies.
ANd it's also quite hard to take it down with shooting, because off the randoming, and that the priest can take the collar/ankhra, while healing the dead casket guards :D. (actually, a 1 in 18 chance if you take these options.

It also works really well in connection with a catapult next to it.

Zephyro
My has to b

Star.Scream
09-06-2005, 17:01
>>>>>Favorite Unit, would be chariots for me. I love these things. Nothing sounds more Tomb King-ish than a dozen chariots zooming (or maybe just strolling) down a flank. This is also why I field my TK in a Chariot; because it looks kick-ass awesome. Besides, where else should a TK lead from? :p

In response to the Staff of Ravening; I havnt tried it recently; but I usally dont take a LHP, thats probably why; but since its getting some good feedback at the moment I think I'll try switching up my list with a HLP and give it a shot.


In addition to the questions raised by zephyro, I would like to hear peoples opinions on a fulling mounted TK army. I've never tried it, but I do have enough models to. I'm talking an army with :

2 Units of Skeletal Horsemen; 16 strong each.
2 units of chariot, units of 3-4,
+ some constructs (a scorpion for sure), and carrion.

Has anyone tried this sort of list before? On paper it looks tempting (even considering the average-stats of the TK Medium Calvary).

CarlostheCraven
09-06-2005, 19:06
I have a buddy who runs that sort of list
Tomb king, Prince, Icon Bearer, all mounted on chariots
Liche Priest with cloak or on steed
2 * 16 heavy horse
1* 12 chariots (chars included)
2* 4 chariots
4 scorpians
2 bone giants in larger games

Its a very cool list - incredibly fast, manuverable and hard hitting. That being said if he fails to get the charge (vs Brets for example) or fails to break or wipe out whatever he hits (my infantry based TK list) he's in for a world of trouble. He hasn't beat me yet and has had trouble with 1+ save empire knights but has had a field day against Ogres and Brets, and Orcs and Goblins.

His Icon bearer is essential as is the Spear of Antarhak on his king, both of whom are in the big unit of chariots, because they really help compensate for the lack of raising in his force.
Getting two free points of combat resolution for his constructs is awesome. :D

The one problem I have with the list personally is that it is a one-trick pony - either charge and massarce your opponent or get charged or held up and die horribly.

b_blair00
10-06-2005, 16:53
It looks like we got a good bit of info on the core.

Which special units do you normally take and how many in each unit do you normally take, and what is your tactics with how to best use them.

zephyro
10-06-2005, 20:07
I normally take

- 3 carrion
- 3 ushabti
- 2 tomb scorpions

The carrion always come in hadny, with their potential 40 inch charge range.They can also go after fleeing units, which already makes them really worth it.And that's just 1 use!.

The ushabti are 1 of the only high strength units, and really good flankers.Always use them for counter-attacking units, or flanking them while being sponged by my skellie warriors.

TS both go ICFB and try to take out warmachines, lone characters, mages etc.Always find uses for them.

Zephyro

Sariel
11-06-2005, 04:53
Hrm. Special units -

In order of preference:

Carrion.
I never leave home without fielding at least 6.

1. A unit of 6 can take 4 wounds before it drops below US5, which makes them pretty resistant to BS-based shooting. Also takes a lot more work for an opponent to destroy the unit with magic.

2. A unit of 5 or more can still contribute +1/+2 for charging an enemy unit in the flank/rear, even if they don't negate rank bonuses.

3. A unit of 6 is pretty much guaranteed to outnumber war machine crews. If they crew fails fear and flees, I'll just spike the machine. Either way, I win. Coupled with their ability to charge 40" with the Incantation of Urgency, guaranteed to draw out dispel scrolls.

4. March blocking, chasing down fleeing units... yeah.. what's not to like? A bargain at 24 points.


Tomb Scorpion
Will always field 1. Possibly 2 if I have the points.

1) Its got just about every beneficial special rule in the book. Poison, Killing Blow, MR1.. only thing it doe'snt have is US5 so it can't negate rank bonuses on its own.

2) Tunnelling is nice, but the Scorpion also has the speed (and toughness) to make it across the battlefield on its own, and can easily handle support units like skirmishers/flyers/fast cavalry single-handed.

3) Large number of high-strength+Killing Blow attacks might also make it worthwhile to send it on suicide attacks against mages and fighting heroes in ranked units. The fact that its a construct means you might actually last a couple of rounds before crumbling...


Tomb Guard
Expensive, but works best against opponents who have faced them before.

Its all about the Icon of Rakaph. The ability to reform BEFORE charging is really quite scary. You don't need a huge unit; 16-18 Tomb Guard with the Icon work pretty well. Excellent for covering your war machines/Casket if you're playing defensively, but pretty good for holding down one flank of your line if you're advancing.

Killing Blow ain't too shabby either. Expensive characters will usually think twice about charging in, since no one likes their 400+ point Lord getting killed by a 12-point skeleton with delusions of grandeur.....

Nothing like watching an opponent land his High Sorceress on a Manticore behind a Tomb Guard regiment, only to have the Tomb Guard turn around and charge her the next turn.

The best part is, once you've done this a couple of times, you don't even need to bring the Icon for every battle. Just buy a standard for the Tomb Guard regiment, and smile as opponents are suddenly very careful moving around it.


Ushabti
High WS, high S, many attacks. Might bring along a unit of 4 every once in a while.

Trouble is...

1) They're expensive.
2) They're vulnerable to shooting.
3) Moving at 5"/10", they're pretty slow compared to other W3 Ogre-sized monsters.

Scary. Great for setting up counter-charges on units that are stuck in combat with your skellies. Except for the fact that they're really expensive.

Worth every point, true. Trouble is, when you've already spent 800+ points on characters, you have to be careful where you spend the rest of your points, and when you could just as easily countercharge with 15 Skeletons... they might not kill anything, but when you throw in ranks, flank, outnumber, you're not doing too bad...

Star.Scream
13-06-2005, 22:58
>>>>>I think that the Tomb Kings are gifted with some of the best special and rares in the game, each one has a purpose.

Carrion; obviously great flankers, and war machine hunters, we all know this.

Ushabti; are also a great, very good stats, and pump out lots of hurt. There only downside is that they are unwieldly compared to other constructs

Tomb Scorpion; Great Statline; almost identical to the King himself; he is underprices in my opinion as well; I would pay 100pts base for this guy any day. His only drawback is not having Unit stegneth 5; if he had that there wouldnt be a Tomb King army with out one (or four!)

Tomb Guard; Rock hard. You could run this unit against almost any other unit if Fantasty and match them step for step; add a character and they are easily one of the best infantry units in the game.


Aside from the obvious I want to hear opinions on unit sizes.
Ushabti; if focused fired on, do drop pretty easilly at T4 5+save. I usally field 4 if I do, and when I do I feild them 4 wide. This makes them very unwieldly though. General question: is it better to simply field 3 of them 3 wide, or to field 4 or 5? I've always felt they did better as units of 4, but I'm willing to try a simple unit of 3 to see if they can still make it to combat with enough wounds to make a difference.

Secondly; Carrion, I usally field a unit of 6, 10 would just seem like to much. How many do other Tomb Kings players generally field? I personally think 4 is the minimum that should be fielded to yeild any sort of positive results; and they're not a point sink at 24pts each.

zephyro
14-06-2005, 14:12
I usually field 3. They are maneauvrable this way, and don't take up a lot of points.
They are real handy as warmachine hunters, but my most used tactics is...:

Charging fleeing units!
With a potential charge range of 40, nothing can escape them.This means that all of those units who thought they could flee and rally from your guys. (or if they run by a fear test if you charge) are eliminated very easy this way.

Ushabti would be 3.
Not too expensive, maneauvrable, and you can easily heal them.You know they will get shot, so try and protect them.Best used as flank-chargers, or sometimes front chargers (if you flank the other unit too)

Zephyro

Sariel
14-06-2005, 15:49
Carrion -
Ideal number - 7.
1) Guaranteed to outnumber the crew of any war machine out there.
2) Can take 6 wounds before dropping below US5, negating any bonuses for flank/rear charges.

Not exactly the best use of Carrion, but can be used to hold up S3 infantry in a pinch, and they can actually make a difference when it comes to combining charges.

Anything less than 5 and I'm not going to bother, since I'll have a lot fewer options available.

Ushabti -
Ideal number - 4
I am going to take wounds from magic and shooting. Whatever - after casualties, 3 Ushabti are still pretty darn scary in close combat, and I'm going to assume my Liche Priests will have other things to do than patch up the Ushabti. 2 Ushabti, on the other hand, are'nt QUITE as scary....

Spider
14-06-2005, 18:09
With Ushabti i have got used to taking 3 and watching them all die to shooting, on the rare occasions i actually get them into combat they always let me down badly. :(

However i would never be without them...for the points they make splendid abalative armour for my chariots or bone giant. Because they can be killed relatively easily the get targeted when arguably there are more usefull things to be killed.

I would rather my Ushabti die than my TK's chariot unit!

The Phoenix
15-06-2005, 02:12
How do you guys feel about using spears vs. HW's on your skeleton wariors? If you crunch the numbers, spears will average a higher combat resolution score than hand weapon and shield (accounting for both wounds dealt and taken), but they cost a point more. I'm currently building my first tomb kings army, and I'm planning on one unit of each...

-Phoenix

Wez
15-06-2005, 16:48
How do you guys feel about using spears vs. HW's on your skeleton wariors? If you crunch the numbers, spears will average a higher combat resolution score than hand weapon and shield (accounting for both wounds dealt and taken)[...]
They do? Bearing in mind the skeletons will be striking last most of the time, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s/5s and then an armour save, spears give you around 5 extra attacks, where as HW+S saves you about 1/6 wounds (compared to spears).

Against light infantry, yes spears may be better. Against cavalry, 'good' infantry, flankers, characters etc. HW+S is cheaper and better. The main advantage of Spear+shield is that you can choose what to use, but being honest I'd rather get a few more skeletons for the points you pay.

I figure if you play against horde armies, spears will probably be better.

-Wez

The Phoenix
16-06-2005, 00:37
They do? Bearing in mind the skeletons will be striking last most of the time, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s/5s and then an armour save, spears give you around 5 extra attacks, where as HW+S saves you about 1/6 wounds (compared to spears).

Against light infantry, yes spears may be better. Against cavalry, 'good' infantry, flankers, characters etc. HW+S is cheaper and better. The main advantage of Spear+shield is that you can choose what to use, but being honest I'd rather get a few more skeletons for the points you pay.

I figure if you play against horde armies, spears will probably be better.

-WezHmm... I just did my math again and you seem to be right. More specifically, against things with armor save 4+ or worse, the spears tend to to do better, because they can deal more damage. After that, the skellies just aren't able to kill anything. And, of course, against S6 or better, the spears are superiour, since the skellies won't get an armor save either way (not that you see S6 that often).

Of course, spears can chose to go with theier hand weapons instead, but then they cost more (only a difference of 2-3 skellies per unit, but that might be enough to give you unit strength).

Hmm...

This means I have to find more hand weapons :cries:


New Qestion:

Does anybody use light or heavy cavalry? It seems to me that everything they do, either skeleton wariors or chariots do better...

-Phoenix

Wez
16-06-2005, 12:12
Does anybody use light or heavy cavalry? It seems to me that everything they do, either skeleton wariors or chariots do better...
Light cavalry, are, put bluntly S***. They're bad at shooting, bad in combat, expensive and some of the slowest "fast" cavalry you'll ever see (who's going to cast an invocation on a unit that does nothing with shooting and would die in combat?)

Heavy cavalry are slightly over-priced imo. The best use for them, is, imo a small 5-6 man flanking unit that can also kill skirmishers, warmachines and fast cavalry.

A lot of people use large units so get a huge outnumber and rank bonus. However for the points paid, you can get far better units. They are also easy to kill seeing as the unit is so huge it's near impossible to hide. The size also makes them difficult to use. Then they have massive flanks and don't even pack a punch (5S4 attacks and 4S3 attacks at WS2... Wow, that's near identical to a single chariot. Check the maths if you want, the horsemen do on average 2.5 S4 hits and 2 S3 hits, the chariots does 2.5 S4 hits and 1.5 S3 hits! :eek: ).

A trick you can do is summon them using a BSB behind units. This sounds good, except you can't charge bar with magic, the banner is very expensive and you have to take an icon bearer. :(

The only unit I'd even consider using is a small 5-6 man unit as mentioned. It's cheap and can do a number of jobs, including screening other units.;)

-Wez

Sariel
16-06-2005, 12:48
Light cavalry, are, put bluntly S***. They're bad at shooting, bad in combat, expensive and some of the slowest "fast" cavalry you'll ever see (who's going to cast an invocation on a unit that does nothing with shooting and would die in combat?)


Oh, they're not THAT bad. They have no business getting into close combat, but then I just use them to provide some cover for mounted Liche Priests. Anything they kill is purely a bonus.

A Liche Priest on a skeletal steed moves twice as fast as a Liche Priest on foot, and putting him in a unit of fast cavalry means that I don't have to worry about silly things like wheeling or reforming.




Heavy cavalry are slightly over-priced imo. The best use for them, is, imo a small 5-6 man flanking unit that can also kill skirmishers, warmachines and fast cavalry.

A lot of people use large units so get a huge outnumber and rank bonus. However for the points paid, you can get far better units. They are also easy to kill seeing as the unit is so huge it's near impossible to hide. The size also makes them difficult to use. Then they have massive flanks and don't even pack a punch


Yeah. Khemri "heavy cavalry" are a joke, seeing as how they're still basic WS2 skeletons. On the other hand, they cost exactly the same as 2 skeletons with the same number of attacks, twice the basic movement and a slightly better armour save against missile fire. Granted, they're not much harder to kill than normal skeletons, but still, not THAT bad.

Like Wez says, small units work pretty well, but with a 16" charge, they can do a pretty good job of keeping an enemy unit busy for a turn or two while the rest of your army swings wide.. Not the best use for them, but that's the half-full version.

Wez
16-06-2005, 13:56
Oh, they're not THAT bad. They have no business getting into close combat, but then I just use them to provide some cover for mounted Liche Priests. Anything they kill is purely a bonus.

A Liche Priest on a skeletal steed moves twice as fast as a Liche Priest on foot, and putting him in a unit of fast cavalry means that I don't have to worry about silly things like wheeling or reforming.

Well, 1 liche will nearly always have the cloak of dunes; it's too good not to take! I prefer to put any other liches with catapults; they're safe, have a good LoS and can cast their incantations on the SSCs. If you're using an attacking army and have no-where else to put the liches, I could understand using light horsemen though:).

-Wez

TheDrugLordX
16-06-2005, 18:47
What do you guys think of this equipment for a king:

Cloak of Dunes
Spear of Antharak
Scorpion Armour
Shield

This comes up at 268pts. Kinda Cheap for a king if you think about it. With this combination of items he's supposed to fly behind enemy lines (away from shooting stuff of course) and by either magic or next turn charge enemy Rank & File units.

The armour makes him only take 1 wound due to combat resolution. And the spear allows him to regenerate those lost wounds.

Unless you're up against a real powerful foe, he can tie up huge expensive units for whole games! untill you decide to send in some reinforcements in the rear or flank.

Sure, he's only at 5+ save. But T5 and 4W makes him very hard to kill for most infantry/cavalry troops. And as his able to regenerate, he'll stay alive for a long time.

There are a couple of drawbacks of course. This is a risk, some bad luck can make your king die very quickly, whilst some luck can make him defeat units by himself. Also, he takes the Cloak of Dunes, meaning that's no option for your Hierophant.

Also, he works as a perfect warmachines hunter/mage hunter. Combine him with a unit of carrions and a scorpion or two and you'll cause havoc amongst his lines! Your enemy has to decide, turn and deal with the threat behind his lines, or stay put and get ready for the oncomming horde of units...

Havn't tried this though, but it sounds very cool. What do you think?

Sariel
17-06-2005, 03:43
What do you guys think of this equipment for a king:

Cloak of Dunes
Spear of Antharak
Scorpion Armour
Shield

Havn't tried this though, but it sounds very cool. What do you think?

Well, he gets a 4+ save, since Scorpion Armour counts as heavy armour.. :p

So, that being said, it does work really well, with the following qualifiers:

1) It depends heavily on using magic to get him to charge - it works best just parking him in front of an enemy unit and invite them to charge you. Granted, the other guy will probably do his best to stop you, but that's ok. Less dispel dice for your Liche Priests' Incantation.

Excellent if you're looking at ranked infantry, not so hot if you're trying to use him to stop charging Knights/Khornate Warriors with halberds or GWs.

On the other hand, just flying him up and parking him in front of a unit of ranked infantry is usually enough to stop them in their tracks. More so if the other guy has run into this combo before..... :evilgrin:


2) Not so hot if the other guy is running High Elves with the Ring of Corin. Sure, you can stop it, but all you need is one lousy roll with the dispel dice, and the Tomb King is dust. Literally.


But yeah, its an excellent combo. Especially with the Carrion, since the Tomb King can cast Urgency on units within 6". Fly him and the Carrion up, and start casting Urgency on the Carrion for a nifty 40" charge. Roll a 4+ and watch your opponent start to sweat, especially if you also have a mounted Liche Priest close by....

And unlike the Hierophant, you don't need to worry if the Incantation goes off and the Tomb King is suddenly all alone in the middle of the battlefield.

Of course, I'm biased in favour of a Tomb King with the Cloak of Dunes. Also fun is using the Cloak on a King with the Destroyer of Eternities (and heavy armour and shield, just in case).

Sariel
17-06-2005, 04:06
Also, he takes the Cloak of Dunes, meaning that's no option for your Hierophant.


That's actually a gripe of mine - what the !@#$ is a Liche Priest Hierophant, the single most important model in my army - doing flitting around on his own? A T3 W2 character with no armour and 25 points left for magical protection wandering around on his own in a world with all sorts of nasty spells that ignore LOS and/or targetting restrictions is just a bad idea, imho. ;)

I can see it being useful if you have a High Priest with the Plaques, MAYBE, but for a Liche Priest....? Besides, a Tomb King with the Cloak is almost as good as a Hierophant Priest, at least when it comes to casting the Incantations of Smiting and Urgency. 2 1d6 Incantations with a 6" range are'nt too shabby, especially compared to 1 2d6 Incantation from a Priest..


I have to admit, though, I have always been very fond of running tough, strong fighty models as independent characters, especially when they can fly and then attempt to charge another 8" during the magic phase.

Boondock Saint
17-06-2005, 07:56
I personally avoid the combo, because as a matter of personal taste, I feel that a Prince or King is much better off (fluff/style wise) leading his soldiers from a unit of chariots or tomb guard, and not as a souped up hero (remembers the days of herohammer... hates that lizardmen charm ;) ).

Wez
17-06-2005, 10:44
What do you guys think of this equipment for a king:

Cloak of Dunes
Spear of Antharak
Scorpion Armour
Shield

I'd avoid it.

You won't be tying up expensive units. You will be being tied up by units (how many units come to 270+ points?). You also rely solely on magic for the charge. That means if your magic is dispelled, as it likely will be (seeing as no liche is going to be near enough to cast incantations on him), you're a sitting duck. With no ward save, youre pretty screwed if youre facing a cannon/ bolt thrower.

I looks nice on paper, but in reality it's imo a waste of a tomb king (once he's in combat you're wasting something like 80pts worth of magic capability, seeing as he can only really cast incantations on himself.

Also, it stops you moving once youre in combat. That means any character can easily just walk up and then charge and there's nothing you can do about it. At S5 you won't be killing much in "tough" units either.

As I said, it looks nice on paper, but in reality it simply doesn't work very well.

-Wez

TheDrugLordX
17-06-2005, 16:07
But the conversion opportunity would be awesome! perhaps worth a try.. We'll. If I consider restarting me Tomb Kings perhaps I'll make a flying Tomb King.

The thing is to fly with carrion. These will be able to screen him from missile Fire and make a huge threat to enemy rears/warmachines and the like.

Well, with the Cloak of Dunes he'll get to choose his battles, most often atleast. Preferably would be to charge enemy characters so that he strikes first. Try to kill him before standing infront of the enemy unit himself. Combined with a carrion unit, he can cause great damage!

And for the incantations, with a unit of carrion nearby he'll be able to make them use their 40" charge. That's nasty!

Against some foes, like chaos, he won't do much. Though, choosing one of his weaker chaos units, charing so that you stand in BTB with one warrior and hopefully killing it might work. Unless it's a knight unit, getting charged ain't that bad. He still has a T of 5 and 4 wounds... and infantry is kinda easy to kill...

I'm not sure how to pick the rest of the army thogh. It have to be strong enough to work without the king and hitting hard enough to give the king the support, which he'll eventually need.

Got another combo which I'll post, though, to avoid confusion with this combo I'll post him in a new post. This one is probably more familiar to some of you guys, though for those that do not know of it it'll be interesting.

TheDrugLordX
17-06-2005, 16:36
Okay, so here's the other king:

Flail of Skulls
Golden Ankhra & Light Armour OR Armour of the Ages & Vambraces of Defense.
Chariot
Shield

Joining a unit og chariots with a champion and standard carrying The Icon of the Sacred Eye.

The king comes up at 311/313pts.

The chariot unit doesn't matter. The bigger the better of course, though, that only make em expensive. A unit of between 3-5 is very well enough.

Now, how to use this unit depends on how the victim (enemy unit) looks like in matter of champion and/or character.

No champion/character
Simply just charge, dish out as much damage as possible and win the combat. Watch out for hard hitting units though, of course. The Icon makes for lots and lots of kills...

Champion, but no character
Charge, and challange the champion :wtf: . For must of you this might seem stupid but it's a really powerful move and a cunning enemy would not accept the challange, hence figuring out that there is some trick and not only that his enemy is plain stupid. If challange is not accepted, just beat the crap of the unit as you would do, with the help of the icon. If he however do accept the challange. Surely, you won't kill the same amount of modells with your king. But the Fact that you hit on 2+ (WS6 with +1 to hit), and wound on 2+ (S7) means that you'll do an effective 6-8wounds. Winning the challange and getting an +5 combat resolution. With the wound caused, your king will alone have gotten you an CR of +6. With the impacts of your chariots, this will be more than enough to break the enemy.

Character, but no champion
Almost same as if only champion. If you relly want to kill his character, don't make a challange. This means that he don't have the option of hiding and thus you may direkt your attacks at him. Though, you could challange him. Causing lots of extra CR if you kill him in challange, and win the combat. If he do not accept the challange, simply just destroy the unit and overrun them...

Champion & Character
Most of you should have figured how it works by now, but I'll write this one down as well. In most cases; DO NOT CHALLANGE! Even though you challange his character, he'll accept with his champion and if his character has a GW, your chariots are going bye bye... Simply, as you strike first, slay the character by directing attacks at him. If he, however, challanes with his champion, simply take the challange with your champion. Killing his character with your king.

Some characters out there might be a little to though for the king. Though, even vampires and Oldbloods easily gets crushed by this king. with a WS of 6, +1 to hit and S7 causing dubble wounds is often more than enough. And don't hesitate to charge if it's a 2W character you're facing. One wound and he's dead...
(Hey, the only unit & character this tactic have failed me to overrun was a 9 man Nurgle Chosen Knight unit with a Chaos Lord of Nurgle with an 4+ ward save (damn ward save! :p )

How you equip him is a matter of preferance. I prefer to negate attacks (thus the Armour of the Ages & Vambraces of Defense) in order to try to neutralise those harder characters. Though, The ward save is probably better if you count on taking a lot of wounds on your king. NOTE: The Collar of Shapesh is no option, cause if you take lots of wounds, you'll not win the combat though the collar saved him. The important thing is to win the combat and break the enemy, so try focusing on that! (though, I can now see that Collar of Shapesh + chariot of Fire/Vambraces of defense would work pretty good as well :) )

So, this is my view on one of, if not the one most effective Tomb King out there.
Though, of course, everything depends on your type of tactic.

(I have to excuse myself of all the grammer mistakes I've done, when I write much I tend to do alot of mistakes...)

Star.Scream
17-06-2005, 23:09
>>>>>Honestly I think of the most point effective setups for the Tomb King is the Golden Ahkhara (ward save) and a Great Weapon. He packs a punch, and has a ward save for anything that gets through his Toughness of 5. It can take a beating, and hand it out too.

Personally I dont like the idea of a King with the CLoak of the Dunes; if hes got it, what kind of gear does the Hierophant have? The Heirophant requires this Cloak in my opinion.

Flail of Skulls is nice too on the TK if your hunting enemy characters; but most of the time the TK can take on most other Lord Characters without a Magic weapon; he is that strong.

Commander X
20-06-2005, 15:40
Ok, here is something I have been wondering about for quite some time.

Why do people like their Hierophant to have the Cloak of the Dunes? For an expensive and important character, it doesn't seem to be the best idea to have him fly around on his own.

TheDrugLordX
20-06-2005, 18:07
Well, most peaople prefer to have him flying around than being stuck between enemy units...

If you don't like him to fly around by himself, then simply make him fly between units...

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
03-07-2005, 06:03
bump....id use it mostly to get him away from the enemy. That way, when a squad of fast cavalry or flyers gets dangerously close, he can get the hell out of there and hide near some of your other units.

What do you guys think of the tomb kings with the spear of antarhak, scorpion armour, and cloak of dunes combo? This guy can fly up and keep any unit occupied for almost the whole game. In one turn of combat, he can only lose maximum one wound which he then regains from the spear. Good, no?

Lizardmen
03-07-2005, 10:07
In TK i'm always use big blocks of cavalary, heavy and light, 2Liche priest, 1High priest and 1prince, 2catapults, 1unit of 5 carrions, my tatic some like that: going to the enemy with cavalary, and put carrions behind enemy lines, the tomb prince going in one catapult.
For me in this tactic the most important fase is magic, advancing again with cavalary and in finally put the screaming shoots

Lizardmen
03-07-2005, 10:08
i'm forgot this:
sory for my english, but i'm new in this and i'm came from portugal

Morph
07-07-2005, 16:07
It took me a long while to get hold of playing with TKs but once I figured out the way to win I've been very succesful with them.

Bascially the most important thing is... MAGIC!

The fact you can throw out a number of spells that are automatically cast is key. The most important of these is of course the move spell. Being able to manouvre for a flank charge in the movement phase then charge in the magic phase destroys most armies. It's not uncommon to cast move 5 times just to get one unit performing a game winning charge in the side of an enemy unit.

To this end my characters consist of a High Priest, 2 priests and a prince. In addition my cavalry unit has the banner that raises models back just to see if the enemy will throw away a dispel dice. The High Priest carries the Hieratic Jar which is pretty essential, use it after the enemy has used up their dispel dice and aren't expecting any more magic.

I wont go into my full tactics as that would take too long, but I'll mention how I equip my High Priest.

I'm not a fan of the Cloak of Dunes. Too many spells lists have spells that can target individuals out of units. Considering one of the most popular lists is Heavens it's dangerous to be flying around when lightning bolts are striking!

I keep my HP in a unit of 20 skellies. Since they're unbreakable it's safe as he wont be running away, plus it has 3 ranks, a standard and causes fear, often outnumbering the enemy. To protect him he gets the Golden Ankh (4+ Ward) and the amulet that gives a model -1 attack (forgotten name). This makes him quite safe in combat. Look at who is in base contact at the start of combat and consider issuing a challenge as this can often reduce attacks that would be made at him (since any good opponent is probably going to try and kill him off!).

The disadvantage of keeping him on foot is he can't fly to where he is needed to cast spells, however I tend to keep my units fairly close. Depends on your usual battle tactics here.

The magic items are rounded off by the Hieratic Jar, which has helped me in so many games.

zephyro
07-07-2005, 22:08
I don't agree with you Morph.

Yes, our magic is great, and it's relaly helping us in winning the game.
But you should see it as a really big helpfull extra!.
Have you ever tried our units without magic??
They are quite impressive for ''a stupid pile of skulls which can't do anything without magic''

Tomb scorpions, ushabti, and others, can still work properly without magic, and can win the game for you.


What do you guys think of the tomb kings with the spear of antarhak, scorpion armour, and cloak of dunes combo? This guy can fly up and keep any unit occupied for almost the whole game. In one turn of combat, he can only lose maximum one wound which he then regains from the spear. Good, no?

There are some slight problems with this:

1) yes, he can lose only 1 wound per combat turn. Only the people you are fighting IN combat will do much more damage than that.

2) there is almost NOT A SINGLE way that that tomb king will get it points back.
It can only take on weak units, because he won't be able te regenerate wounds as fast as he loses them to others.Against the really big expensive units, there will be just 1-2 rounds of combat, and then you king is gone, and they scored a lot of victory points.

All-in-all, I find it a waste of points.


Why do people like their Hierophant to have the Cloak of the Dunes? For an expensive and important character, it doesn't seem to be the best idea to have him fly around on his own.

Well, since everybody is trying to kill him, I rather have the ability to fly away from my enemies, so they won't get me :D . Most fun of this is, is that most opponents don't know that that ''h so important'' hierophant, ain't so important as he looks like.

With the lD9 of a prince, your troops which do have a low LD (skellies warriors, horseman, and charioteers) will not even take a single scratch most of the time.

Zephyro

Morph
08-07-2005, 15:48
Zephyro, I will agree that TKs have a few strong units. Ushabti have been at the top of my 'must try this unit' list for a long time, but I've been doing to well with my current list to want to change it.

I feel there are a number of styles of army you can do well with the TKs to suit your style. The one that has worked for me is built around the magic phase.

Quick summary of my army:
Hight Priest, Prince, 2 x Priest
2 x 20 skellies (l armour + h weapon + shield )
10 skellies (bows)
16 Heavy horses
2 x 5 Light horses
4 carrion
scorpion
catapult

It has very little that could be considered hard hitting. The main way of winning revolves around setting up flank charges in the move phase and making them in the magic phase. It's good because it can be difficult to avoid - how do you out-manoeuvre someone with two movement phases?

Other points on this force:
Carrion can first turn charge enemy war machines.

A catapult that can shoot twice a turn and cause panic tests is nasty. Plus you can range it in the magic phase and get a more accurate guess in the shooting phase.

Skellies are a good core, 20 seems sufficient to keep them around so lost ones can be raised back.

The bowfire is used to get rid of small units that are protecting flanks or take a few wounds off units so they can be outnumbered later.

Heavy horsemen aren't strong in combat, but with a move of 8" then a magic charge of 16" they're great for getting round the flanks. Plus they have unit strength of 32!


Well that's my way of playing. Maybe I'll change tactics at some point and go for a more heavy hitting force but for now I'll stick with this.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-07-2005, 14:56
Constructs are killer units as zephyro pointed out, but I'm now attempting to use a list that includes fewer constructs and instead relies on mobility and cooperation between units.



I've been using the tomb kings on and off for about a year and a half now. I've only recently started serioulsy altering the way my army is composed becuase I had found a style that was effective and I was previoulsy reluctant to change it. However now that I'm finally themeing the list I've decided to change the play style.

My previous army included a king with the collar of shapesh wielding the destroyer of eternities in a unit of tomb gurad using the icon of rakaph and a unit of 4 ushabti. These two units are expensive but obvioulsy hard hitting. I found they were perfectly capable of breaking an enemy unit by themselves, often even if charged in the case of the tomb guard and king's unit.


I've now decided to go for a slightly lighter MSU stlye army which includes some DOW light cavalry as desert nomads to fit the army theme. I've only tried the list once but it was very effective, though I think that was down to lack of experience on the part of my opponent than my great :rolleyes: tactical abilities.

The army I fielded yesterday against a lizardman army looked like this:

244-Tomb King, shield, great weapon, vambraces of the sun and golden ankhra

173-Liche priest on skeletal steed 2x dispel scroll

160-Hierophant, hieratic jar, cloak of the dunes

68-Icon bearer, lt armour

266-24 Skeleton warriors, lt armour, hw, shield, Fcom, Banner of the undying Legion

96-12 Bowmen

120-3 Chariots

120-3 Chariots

70-5 Skeleton Cavalry (bodyguard for the liche priest on a horse)

85-Tomb Scoprion

72-3 Carrion

310-20 Tomb Guard, Fcom, Icon of Rakaph (king's unit, the hierophant starts here too)

105-5 Light Cavalry, musician, bows, spears, shields

110-Screaming Skull Catapult, skulls of the foe

TOTAL 1999


Whilst great against characters and when smiting, the destroyer was a very large points sink. The tomb king is much better defensively now because rather than having a collar of shapesh, which whilst protecting the king kills off your unit, he instead has the golden ankhra and the vambraces of the sun.

The king's unit is still pretty formidable other units in the list however need to work together to break the enemy. If I could give another unit the icon of rakaph I might get rid of the tomb guard altogether becuase I love the banners flexibilty more than I rate the tomb guard.

Yesterday's game went very well against the lizardmen (a massacre in my favour), my ranged fire came into its own against the numerous skirmishers, being able to hit on a 5+ at any range even after moving against toughness 2 skinks is great. The icon bearer enabled my centre to hold out against a charging unit of temple guard with the mark of sotek until the tomb king could smash them in the flank using his the icon of rakaph.

I'm hoping I'll get 2 more games in this week that will test the list a bit more. I'll be playing once against my brother's skaven or high elves and also against one of my firend's using an empire list using a steam tank (this could be where I miss having both ushabti and the destroyer of eternities).

Any ideas on how to cope with a steam tank using the list above? I'd be interested to see what Morph has to say given that he runs a list using light units too i.e. few constructs.


A question for anybody that wants to respond:

Do you rely on constructs and tomb guard to do your killing or do you prefer to maneuver into an advantageous position and use the weaker tomb kings units?

My army list is currently somewhere in between, if the list is successful I might try to ween myself off tomb kings and try out liche high priests.

Morph
14-07-2005, 15:17
Any ideas on how to cope with a steam tank using the list above? I'd be interested to see what Morph has to say given that he runs a list using light units too i.e. few constructs.

Fortunately for me I've never had the delight of facing a Steam Tank (they're a bit frowned upon round my way). I think I'd just try and avoid it as much as possible and pick on the rest of his army. Thankfully Empire are generaly a favourable game for TKs due to you causing fear. Try avoiding it with your fast troops and scaring off the empire units.

I don't know the rules off hand but the catapult might be able to do the tank some damage (although is also good at making Empire cavalry run away).

Gazak Blacktoof
15-07-2005, 00:51
I was thinking about my forthcoming battle whilst I was doing the washing-up this evening and I've decided on a strategy for dealing with the steam tank.

1. The steam tank only causes impact hits.

2. This means that any characters/ champions in the front rank are safe.


Based on this logic I'll be placing both my icon bearer and my king in the tomb guard and postioning them to take on the steam tank. Getting a charge in on the tank, or forcing it to charge the tomb guard, shouldn't be too much of a problem given that they have the icon of rakaph. Even if charged the unit should still be able to attack back with 4 S4 and 4 S7 attacks, regardless of impact hits caused. That number attacks should do considerable damage to it, rendering it virtualy useless and preventing it from reversing and re-charging.

I've got the tomb scorpion as a 'Plan B', should the tank cause itself horific damage and the full tomb guard unit is over-kill or if it's pressence is unnecessary elsewhere.


I might target the tank with my SSC but feel its better off used against any infantry or cavalry that stray too far from the general's leadership radius.


The only counter to the tomb guard I can see is if the tank can charge simultaneously with a unit of cavalry, this will do significant damage to the unit so targetting/ screening cavalry will probabaly be a high priority.

Other than the tank I'm not sure what my opponenet will be bringing. Prior to the lizardmen battle earlier this week he had mentioned using duelists in his army, though he might re-think this given what a mess my massed archery fire made of the skinks and jungle swarms.

Morph
21-07-2005, 14:01
Gazak (and any other TK players), have you found an Icon Bearer useful?

To me it seems he just seems fairly sub-standard. He's not particularly good in combat and the 1 less wound ability seems like such a small effect as to be useless. Am I underestimating it's usefulness?

I realise he allows a magical banner but I can't really see much worth taking that can't be taken by a unit without an icon bearer. The Icon of Rakaph, Warbanner and Banner of Undying Legion can all be taken by units, no need for the Bearer.

I think I just like to pack my army with so much magic and the Icon Bearer takes up a vital spot that a Liche Priest could fill. :rolleyes:

plasmapuff
22-07-2005, 13:02
Hey guys! Just wanted to pop in and say hi.

I'm written a little bit about Tk and I thought I might share some on this new portent site. The series is called T.A.C.T (Tacticas with Alliterated Cheesy Titles), and includes everything to unit tactics/debate as well as the upcoming guide on Tk incantations.

Anyway enjoy: http://s4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=572

Gazak Blacktoof
23-07-2005, 23:27
Morph-

I play in a small group and we don't tend to max out our lists so its unlikely that I'll need to take 4 magic casting characters even in a tomb kings army. Both my mates and I know that given the opportunity most races can shut down a tomb king magic phase if they tool themselves up properly but this is no fun for anybody, so we agree to a balanced medium. Prior to the revision of my army list on only included 2 liche priests and a king, the icon bearer has been included because I have a king, the icon bearer is supposed to be his champion and so it is only right he takes to the field of battle with him.

I've found his abilities pretty useful so far, tomb king units are reasonably good in combat I find, certainly not a lot worse than most other sides troops and he can give your units greater survivability ready for the flanking units to come in. The icon bearer is most useful when close to constructs, the ability to loose a combat by 2 points and suffer no ill consequences is great.

I would say that if you don't need the 4 th magic caster then take am icon bearer, battle standards look good and he does add survivability to the list.

Wez
12-11-2005, 15:54
Icon of Rulership

It effectively makes your tomb king with chariot US5.

Does anyone use this item?

It can make a tomb king a huge threat to ranked up units. Normally, a ranked unit doesn't have to worry about him, but suddenly they're likely to lose combat if he manages to get a flank charge. As the tomb king can cast extra movement on himself twice I think this could really be deadly. The Tomb King would have to start on a flank for this be take full effect, but if he gets the first charge right, and is supported by frontal charge from other units, he can really help to 'roll-up' a whole army... in theory. Obviously this isn't going to happen in every game, but for 20pts, it looks like the chance is worth taking. I haven't tried it out much personally, but will as soon as I can.

-Wez

TheDrugLordX
13-11-2005, 16:04
I use that item sometimes, but usually I don't. There are more important things to equip your mounted chars with.

When I play 2k, I NEVER take that item. For several reasons:

1) At this army size, you always have pts to spend on a chariot unit which your king/prince can join. A unit of chariots is A LOT better than taking that item.
2) I usually spend my magic items pts allowance on quite important things, and the Icon simply doesn't fit. It's also really useless when in a unit of chariots.
3) If he would go alone, he would have that item. But that makes him a real missle-magnet, which doesn't seem so appealing to me.

But as I said, there are times when I use that item, as:

1) Playing 1k or less. Then it's hard to afford a unit of chariots to join your TP. If you do, you put way to many eggs in one basket. Therefor, giving him the icon of rulership greatly enchances his uses.
2) If I need a kinda cheepsish, yet fast moving and hard hitting flanking unit. A TP in chariot can do. BUT this is only if I know that I'm playing a non-missile army (which there are few of).

Morph
14-11-2005, 13:29
I wouldn't take it. As stated you shouldn't have a TK in chariot riding around on his own. It makes him the target of every warmachine, archer and magic missile going. You want him in a unit of chariots.

Of course, I'm quite anti-chariot as well, but that's a different debate.

aakurtz
15-11-2005, 23:38
I havent been reading the thread, but i have some things to say about tomb kings. Ive been playing them for about 10 months now and i have some serious problems with them. I think they are seriously underpowered and many units just have no place in the army or should never be used.

1. The cav are just retarded. "Heavy" cav with "light" armor? Come on? For their point cost and title they should at least have heavy armor giving them a 3+ (WOW 3+ "heavy" cav!! dont get too crazy aakurtz!!)

2. I also think the ubshabti, although cool, cost too much. Either lower the price to 50 points or give them a 3+ save.

3. Also, for an army thats so magic heavy (which it needs to be played as in order not to get totally ruined) they have TERRIBLE items for casters. There is the cloak of the dunes, but i mean thats the only caster item thats really worth taking and its hardly worth all the talk it gets. If you were to take any of these items from the VC book; staff of damnation, cursed book, power familure, black periapt, rod of flaming death, or book of arkan TK players would be saying cloak of who what? I guess the heratic jar is worth taking and maybe the one that ends spells in play if your going up against someone who uses alot of spells remaining in play. PLEASE GW FIX THE TK CODEX!!!

If GW were to fix these 3 things the army would become alot more competitive and balanced.

Spider
16-11-2005, 08:49
PLEASE GW FIX THE TK CODEX!!!


In all the years the TK's hve been out this is the 1st criticism i have seen.

The army list isn't broke. Its actually one of the best.

Anyway, back to the tactics.:)

TheDrugLordX
16-11-2005, 11:48
Firstly, I think it's important to say that unless you play 2k pts or higher, the TK are kinda unbalanced. The fast that all your characters are magic users makes a big difference. When you play 2000pts your opponent often chooses a fighting hero. Whatever lord hero you choose boosts you magic phase...

I havent been reading the thread, but i have some things to say about tomb kings. Ive been playing them for about 10 months now and i have some serious problems with them. I think they are seriously underpowered and many units just have no place in the army or should never be used.
Considering that TK is an army that requires a lot (maybe even the most) tactical play of all races, they're not easy to play with. But if you do know how to play, they're devastating. When I first started with my TK, I got smashed most of my games. But later, I ended winning the 3 tournies I've ever attended, I think that speaks for itself;)

1. The cav are just retarded. "Heavy" cav with "light" armor? Come on? For their point cost and title they should at least have heavy armor giving them a 3+ (WOW 3+ "heavy" cav!! dont get too crazy aakurtz!!)
Yeah, I agree with you on this. They're crappy, and too expensive. If you have a unit of 16 they can have their uses, but still, way to expensive for their output in the game.

2. I also think the ubshabti, although cool, cost too much. Either lower the price to 50 points or give them a 3+ save.
Ushabti, one of my favorite units. I always take 1 unit of 4. Sure, they're kinda costly, but they're prolly the best mid-sized unit in the game. My ushabtis managed to smash through a unit of chosen chaos knights, now that's something to brag about;) You just have to make sure that you get the charge, instead of your enemy. This is done if you use your magic wisely, which sometimes can be very hard.

3. Also, for an army thats so magic heavy (which it needs to be played as in order not to get totally ruined) they have TERRIBLE items for casters. There is the cloak of the dunes, but i mean thats the only caster item thats really worth taking and its hardly worth all the talk it gets. If you were to take any of these items from the VC book; staff of damnation, cursed book, power familure, black periapt, rod of flaming death, or book of arkan TK players would be saying cloak of who what? I guess the heratic jar is worth taking and maybe the one that ends spells in play if your going up against someone who uses alot of spells remaining in play. PLEASE GW FIX THE TK CODEX!!!
Surely, the VC items are better than the TK ones. Though, I think the other TK items makes up for this. A TK army that focuses 100% on magic is IMHO doomed to lose. TK need fighting capabilities, and the TK is awesome. Prolly the best - overall - character in the game. Pts wise. Use him to victory instead of relying everything on magic. Which won't work against dwarfes and the like.

Still, TK have some nice items to equip the priests with. Cloak of Dunes, Hieratic Jar, Staff of Ravening and Neferras Plaques of Incantations (HLP).


If GW were to fix these 3 things the army would become alot more competitive and balanced.
I think the TK army book is OK as it is, but yeah, heavy cav should be fixed...

Also, what I really miss in the TK book are mumie units, Bone Throwers (ya, like the ones in warmaster. They're just soo cool:cool: ) and Sphinxes (hey, warmaster got it so why not fantasy? sure, we have the casket, but the sphinx could fit in as well). I dunno how these units would fit the actual army, but they're just soo cool!

kd7svh
16-11-2005, 18:09
As the tomb king can cast extra movement on himself twice

Uh... No he can't. Yes, he can cast Urgency twice during the magic phase but he can only successfully target himself once. This is the rule from the TK book on Urgency:

"Units may be affected by this incantation only once per Magic Phase, regardless of source."

I like your general idea but I agree with the others, a King in a chariot all by
his lonesome is just begging to get smacked down.

aakurtz
16-11-2005, 20:10
Ok druglord X you got to help me then.

I used to play a defensive TK list and that worked pretty well, but my enemies got wise to it and started out shooting me. When i try playing offensively i dont have much luck.

I normally play with one TK and 3 priests, one of them standing behind a casket

for core i do one unit of skeleton archers (which are really hit or miss, no pun)
one unit of chariots and one unit of 3 swarms which i deploy next to there giant, stegaton, hydra/ big guy.

for special i do 2 scorpians
one unit of carrion
for the 4th slot ive been trying out ushabti or another unit of carrion. If i dont like the ushabti, i might do a 3rd scorpian.

For rare i normally do a catapult and a casket. If they have good leadership and high toughness i might do 2 giants.

What i need to do is master my defensive playing style. I think the TK are some of the best at playing "keep away" due to there diggers. This weekend im going to try a really defensive 3 scorpians and 3 swarms with a unit of carrion to kill there mages and warmachines and then just wait for them to come to me. Normally this tactic worked ok... i just need to get better at it.

Let me know what you think druglord

TheDrugLordX
16-11-2005, 21:37
Seems, ok. Some thoughts though:

The playing style of a TK army is generally based on your Lord character choice. Ie, a TK or HLP.

The TK choice allows a very mobile army, with lots of chariots and with lots of hitting power, in addition to all other nifty special slots you use.

The HLP, however, doesn't give you this benefit. He's a mage, and he's there to assist your units to do the actual bidding (instead of your TK). Most importantly, he does not make chariots core choices and therefor a army with a HLP instead of a TK tend do be more defensive.

The TK wants to run around, hitting weak positions and running behind enemy lines, smashing whatever he can. NOT putting him in a chariot (I guess you're having him on foot?) means that many of his uses gets neglacted, a pure waste IMHO.

Of course, he has his uses on foot. Give him the Destroyer of Eternities + Collar of Shapesh in a fairly big skellie unit and you have a multi-purpose unit. He'll smash through everything (mine has killed greater daemons this way!) and hold on everything your opponent throws at him. Though, his puny M of 4 means that it's easy to avoid him, as his poor range of 6" with spells, which makes a HLP more viable in a defensive army.

What confuses me the most about your list is that you have no blocks of infantry that provide ranks & outnumber (prolly the 2 most important things in an undead army <-- that might explain your bad luck with the TK). Especially when playing defensive this becomes extra important. You need things that can withstand the enemy (I can imagine how your enemies just run pass everything and go straight for your vulnerable stuff, not a pleasent sight!), hold out and with their weight in numbers break the foe! This is the simplest and best way to win with the undead. You should have atleast 2-3 Rank & File units. consisting of 20-25 models each.

Yet, they're undead, and won't have much chance in combat against a fairly good opponent. This is the number 2 most important thing when playing with undead. You need loads of support troops. Troops that can make sure the combats swing your way and beat your opponent. Ideal units for this are Ushabti, chariots, Bone Giants. (In an defensive army, don't use Bone giants, you need the rare slots for other stuff). Hit his flanks when he's bound to combat, as he can't run away from combat voluntarily...

Next, you need stuff that forces your opponents units to come to your infantry so that your support units can deal with 'em and crush 'em! This is fairly simply, and can be divided into to categories:.
*Harassment. As you have noticed Tomb Scorpions are simply perfect at this, killing enemy warmachines/mages and thus lowering his potential to counter your attacks. This is important, because if he outshoots you you siply would have to walk with your 4"/turn to his lines. Which often means defeat. Though, don't overdo it, as you don't want a whole army running behind his lines and just not taking part in the game if they don't show up/come too far behind.
*Shooting.Of course you also need heavy machinery that smashes your opponent if he refuses to come to you. This should consists of catapults, casket, and a few unit of bowmen.

The fourth needed thing in a defensive TK army is magic users. Magic is the key to make your army work. Use it to get those exrta shots and overwhelm him with shooting, cast magic missiles to destroy flanking/skirmishing forces and, most importantly, get those game-winning charged off!

So what you need to do is balance these 4 aspects. If you do you'll indeed have a great army. So, to make things short. This is what I would do with your list:

1. Drop the TK for a TP. Get a HLP. If you're low on pts drop one of the other priests.

2. Drop the swarms,. As I said, you have to balance these aspects. 2 Scorpions are more than enough, and swarms are way to costly! They do crumble after all...

3. Get 1-2 Units of skellies with hand weapon, shields & light armour.
If pts allow, get a unit of Tomb Guard with Icon of Rakaph. This unit is the ULTIMATE defensive unit. Able to protect a whole flank/your warmachines all by itself.

4. get a unit of ushabti or another unit of chariots. You need more supporting units.

5. Only one unit of bowmen? you need atleast 2.

Good Luck m8;) Hope I didn't write too much:D

aakurtz
17-11-2005, 00:01
thanks for the feedback, but i have some questions comments

1. I like the TK cause it makes my chariots core and allows me to take more scorpians, carrion and ushabti.

2. I love swarms!!! They always tie up big units and stop enemy marching.

3. Normally i back up my skeleton line of 25 archers till i have no choice and then i put them into ranks when its time for combat. Waiting behind that line are the ushabti who support with a flank attack. I would like to do more units of skeletons, but i just never have the points. Also, i like having one big unit of archers cause it makes those incantations so much more important. Id rather have 25 shots per cast then 25 shots per 2 casts. It saves my incantations for other uses.

But i will try a HLP and put a TP in a unit of chariots instead of my king. Then for core ill have a swarm and 2 units of skeletons. Making my specials chariots 2 scorpians and a carrion. I just hate having a spell go off at 3D6 and it being wasted when the enemy is out of dispell dice.

Morph
17-11-2005, 11:27
If you're casting a spell and the enemy is out of dispel dice I'd hardly call that wasted! you've just got off an automatic spell that could mean a flank charge, raising an important unit, shooting with the catapult etc.

It took me a long time to start winning with TKs. They're a tough army to get the right balance in a list, but once I'd figured out a confirguation that worked for me I was certainly winning much much more than I was losing. My particular army list is all about the magic. LHP, 2x LP, plus some magic items to cast more spells. It wins by manouvering into position in the movement phase then moving again in the magic phase. However this is not the only way to win.

Another benefit of having a LHP priest is, as your hierophant, he's harder to kill. Firstly he gets an extra wound and also he can take more defensive magic items. I give mine the 4+ ward save, the amulet that gives an opponent -1 A and the hieretic jar. I don't use the flying item, as I find there is too much stuff in the game that can target single characters on their own, but many people swear by it so stick with it if it's working for you. My LHP is protected by a big unit of skellies.

Don't get carried away with taking all the cool stuff. Scorpions, Ushabti, Casket, Chariots. They can easily make you forget to take those basic skellies who are so good at outnumbering enemy units.

If you have time, read through all this thread. There's a lot of good ideas on different ways to get the tricky Tomb Kings to work.

CarlostheCraven
17-11-2005, 14:19
Tomb Swarms Crumble?

I really do not think so. Using the standard method of rules analysis - i.e. the specific overrides the general - Tomb Swarms do not suffer from combat resolution.

1.) Undead are not "Unbreakable", as per the special rule. Rather, they do not break from combat, and instead suffer additional wounds based on the degree to which they lost combat.

2.) Tombs Swarms in their entry under the "Swarms" special rule clearly states that they are "Unbreakable", as per the special rule, thus overriding the usual combat resolution for Undead units.

Before you say it was an oversight, the Mortals of Chaos Army Book clearly states that Nurglings are not Unbreakable, as they suffer from instability. If Tomb Swarms were meant to suffer combat resolution as per other Undead units them either "Unbreakable" would not have been included in the "Swarm" rule or it would have specifically stated that they suffer from combat resolution in the same manner as other undead.

Cheers

Star.Scream
17-11-2005, 17:21
Before you say it was an oversight, the Mortals of Chaos Army Book clearly states that Nurglings are not Unbreakable, as they suffer from instability. If Tomb Swarms were meant to suffer combat resolution as per other Undead units them either "Unbreakable" would not have been included in the "Swarm" rule or it would have specifically stated that they suffer from combat resolution in the same manner as other undead.


>>>>>>Are you sure? Were you able to find this answer in a FAQ or other document? I was under the impression they took wounds from combat like every other unit in the TK list...but if they dont'....hmmm.

CarlostheCraven
17-11-2005, 17:37
I am quite sure Tomb Swarms are Unbreakable. This question was not addressed in the FAQ at all.

Being under an impression does not make it the rule. The general impression of Undead is that they should all work in the same fashion. Yet, when analysing rules the specific always supercedes the general. The specific rules for Tomb Swarms differentiate them from other undead units in the way they are affected by combat resolution.

If you read the rule it clearly states they are Unbreakable, it is not an inference or an omission - it states that Tomb Swarms are Unbreakable and may not be joined by characters. If they suffered combat resolution in the normal fashion then would be no reason to disallow characters from joining them. Rather, because they are affected by combat resolution in a different manner characters may not join them. This operates in the same that way "normal" living charcaters may not join unbreakable units. I.E. you cannot hide your Wizard Lord in your unit of 20 flagellants or your Dwarf Lord in a unit of Slayers.

Cheers

kd7svh
17-11-2005, 17:54
The general impression of Undead is that they should all work in the same fashion.

And they do, see below.


Yet, when analysing rules the specific always supercedes the general. The specific rules for Tomb Swarms differentiate them from other undead units in the way they are affected by combat resolution.

I disagree. Yes, clearly the swarm are listed as Unbreakable. But they are also listed as Undead and the general rules for Undead models includes the additional wounds from combat rule (emphasis mine):

"Undead cannot be broken, but Undead units beaten in combat suffer one additional wound for every point they lose the combat by."

And this line from the very start of the genearl rules for TK (again, emphasis is mine):

"All models listed in the Tomb Kings army list are undead."

While I would like to agree with you on this one (it would sure be nice for the swarms to not crumble), I think the general rules just cannot be overriden by the "Unbreakable" rule.


If you read the rule it clearly states they are Unbreakable, it is not an inference or an omission - it states that Tomb Swarms are Unbreakable and may not be joined by characters. If they suffered combat resolution in the normal fashion then would be no reason to disallow characters from joining them.

Now your out on a limb. In fact the reason that characters cannot join them is because they are a swarm. This is the case for every swarm in the game, characters cannot join them, it has no bearing on any other special rules for that armies particular swarms.



Rather, because they are affected by combat resolution in a different manner characters may not join them. This operates in the same that way "normal" living charcaters may not join unbreakable units. I.E. you cannot hide your Wizard Lord in your unit of 20 flagellants or your Dwarf Lord in a unit of Slayers.

Again, I think your taking a generalizatin too far. The examples you specify have no specific relationship to the "Unbreakable" rule, rather it relates to the ideal or fluff behind the specified units. Characters cannot join Flagellants or Slayers not because they are unbreakable, but because they are societal outsiders/outcasts for those armies.

Anyway, my $0.02.

CarlostheCraven
17-11-2005, 18:18
kd7svh

The undead rules are you so nicely quoted (thanks, btw, my army book is at home) will actually help my case here.

"Undead cannot be broken, but Undead units beaten in combat suffer one additional wound for every point they lose the combat by."

This rule is not the same as being Unbreakable - the only similarity is that units do not run away. However, Undead are still affected by combat in the form of additional casaulties. Thus they are not Unbreakable, in the terms laid out in the BRB. The general usage of "Unbreakable" by most players when referring to Undead is in fact a misnomer and thus the source of the confusion here.

"All models listed in the Tomb Kings army list are undead."

Indeed. But, as I have said before, when analying rules the specific overrules the general. Thus the GENERAL undead combat resolution rule is overridden by the SPECIFIC Tomb Swarm rule of being classified as Unbreakable.

The reason why characters cannot join swarms it becasue swarms follow a different form of combat resolution than normal units. I.E. that they are Unbreakable. This is a balance issue that the game designers must have foreseen. Wouldn't you put your Saurus Oldblood in a unit of Lizard swarms in order to make him unbreakable?

Your "outsiders" fluff answer to Flagellants and Slayers is weak. The same game balance issue applies to these units as well, as they are, in essence, the Empire and Dwarf versions of swarms. This a rules interpretation not a fluff argument. Fluff has nothing to do with rules

In fact the 2002 Annual goes into some detail about how Unbreakable/ Immune to Psychology/Stubborn Units interact with "standard-psychology" characters. If Tomb Swarms operated in the same fashion as other undead there would be no rules-based need to disallow charcaters from joining them.

kd7svh
17-11-2005, 18:27
CarlosTheCraven,

Clearly we disagree. While I feel my points based on the rules I stated in no way support your argument there is nothing to say I cannot be wrong.

In the end I guess the only way to "be sure" (no, not nuke the site from orbit :D ), is to get it clarified by the studio. Probably not a bad idea to do that. I realize that it will probably never make it into a Chronicles/Annual or anything, but perhaps an answer via GW's official forums would be good enough for us? I would post the question myself, except I hate GW's forums! :eek:

If you and I were to play against one another (i.e. you with TK & Swarms) I would probably not press the issue and let you play them as fully unbreakable. For my own part, were I to play with swarms in my TK army (which I don't) I would take the additional wounds. Perhaps we are both right? :angel:

CarlostheCraven
17-11-2005, 18:54
Indeed we do disagree. We are both entitled to our opinions (no matter how wrong we may be. Lol) :D

Alas, I hate the GW forums as well. Also, unless the clarifaction is offically published - I.E. in a White Dwarf/Annual/Official PDF, not a forum posting, I simply will not accept the ruling as gospel.

That being said, if the ruling came down against me, officially, that would be fine and I would make adjustments in my use of them without any complaint.

At the moment I play VCs for tourneys, but have a substantial TK force as well (6K in fact), that if I ever get painted will be my next Fantasy tournament army. Whether I take Tomb swarms or not will be based largely on whether the are "Unbreakable" (BRB) or "Undead" (TK army rules).

I do want to thank you for your imput. I am unconvinced by your argument, just as you are unconvinced by mine. However, as this rule could be a heavy cause for loss of Sportsmanship in a tournament, the inclusion of Tomb Swarms seems unlikely. I would rather win (hopefully) and have a good time, than just win by using a contentious unit.

Does anyone else want to throw in their two cents?

Cheers

Star.Scream
17-11-2005, 20:16
>>>>>Alas I too hate the GW Forums; so I have posted the question useing the two arguements in this thread in the Rules Forums. Thread found Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=326264#post326264).

Its no offical answer; but I think we have some rules layers who will be able to solve our problem; worst case scenario; we email the Rulz-Boyz.

kd7svh
17-11-2005, 20:50
Alas I too hate the GW Forums; so I have posted the question useing the two arguements in this thread in the Rules Forums. Thread found Here.

Good idea Star, thanks for doing that. It will sure be interesting to get everyone elses take on this.



worst case scenario; we email the Rulz-Boyz.

That definiately defines "worst case". Personally I think my toilet has a better change of being right about rules than the "Rulz-Boyz". I mean, come on, how seriously can you take guys who can't spell? ;) Those guys do take an awful lot of abuse from "all of us" though, I guess we/I should be nicer and at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

Abystoma
17-12-2005, 04:37
CAn a battle standard bearer with the banner of the undying legion join a giant in order to restore his lost wounds? I am sure I read that, albeit a few years ago, on an FAQ or perhaps even on portent. Either way I have yet to find anything in the rule books or the forums to help me out.

Does anyone remember reading the same thing I did, or have fresh insight on the question. I would go one step further, could he join the catapult to heal them as engineers and the like can join their war machines?

Bloodknight
17-12-2005, 09:16
Yes, he can. Its in the FAQ from the GW-Forums. Id rather not join the catapult with the BSB as I believe he gets killed,too on a Misfire 1.

WarriorOfJustice
18-12-2005, 06:41
Ok I just started playing Tomb Kings and I need help! First, I play against a guy who plays Empire mostly. He sits back with his cannons and handgunners, and charges with knights (hasnt realized unsupported knights continuely get slaughtered by my rank and file troops). Any way, they way Ive been looking at the TK's are I want to play pretty defensive/shooty, draw the enemy into me then I hit em with hard units and pop up scorpians and swarms from behind his lines and charge. However, if he plays defensively too and can arguably out shoot me, what should I do?? Also, I have read a lot of posts that said TK are not very good >2000 pt games, we usually play 1-1.5k games, so how can I make up for this, or is it that big of deal even? Thanks a lot!

P.S. This tactica has really helped me, keep the discussion going!

Morph
20-12-2005, 09:39
In less than 2,000 pt games your magic is much weaker, and magic is pretty crucial to the TKs.

If you are looking to specifically take an army to beat your friend then I suggest the following...

You need to take out his war machines. A scorpion is good for this role, but also carrion sine you can try and charge them in on the first turn.

Big blocks of skellies are good since they'll be able to soak up his missile fire.

A catapult of your own is ok, though enemy cannons might just make a mess of it, especially empire cannons.

Dark_Blade
22-12-2005, 00:19
I think that tomb kings can hold their own at less then 2000 points, they are just not as strong
Here is a 1000 pt list that I think is pretty solid

prince
collar greatweapon light

priest
cloak plaque

25 warriors
light shield spear
2x10 bows
5 light horse

scorpion

catapult.
skull of foe

I think this list could do pretty decently.

Morph
27-12-2005, 13:25
I think that tomb kings can hold their own at less then 2000 points, they are just not as strong
Here is a 1000 pt list that I think is pretty solid

prince
collar greatweapon light

priest
cloak plaque

25 warriors
light shield spear
2x10 bows
5 light horse

scorpion

catapult.
skull of foe

I think this list could do pretty decently.

Yeah I think I'd go something along these lines. The Catapult and Scorpion are both pretty good even without TK magic so are a decent choice for 1,000 points. Still aside from those two units this force lacks much killing power, and with so little magic lacks manouvering ability. You'll just have to hope your catapult and archers can cause the enmy to run.

The trouble with TKs at low points is that your opponent gets 2 dispel dice no matter what the poitn of the battle. In 2,000 points TKs get enough magic to overcome these dice, but in 1,000 points the dice shut down a higher portion of your magic. And you can't avoid using magic since all your characters have it. So you're always spoending points on magic ability, even if it is going to be less effective.

Mad Makz
27-12-2005, 21:39
One thing I'd probably take in a 1000 point game is the Death Mask on the Tomb Prince. Terror causing can be a real game swinger in 1000 points.

Here's a concept list, used around putting the Tomb King on a Chariot to allow him to take the terror to the enemy (And a big unit of chariots to make the most of fear causing).

Tomb Prince 100
Death Mask 35
Chariot 45
Spear 2
Light Armour 2
Enchanted Sheild 10

Liche Priest 115
Cloak of the Dunes 20
Hieratic Jar 25

10 Skeleton Archers 80

5 Light Horsemen 90

20 Skeleton Warriors 160
Standard 10
Musician 5
Champion 10

Special
5 Chariots 200

Tomb Scorpion 85

The Priest has the hieratic jar because really you are wanting to get one key charge off with the chariot unit. So you using the Tomb Princes incantation, then cast twice with the Hierophant. Hopefully you'll roll a 3+ with the Tomb Prince, meaning they'll be taking a risk if they don't throw two dice at it, and then you'll have 4 more dice to go. Probably the best chance you're going to be able to get (without investing in a second hierophant.

Steev
02-01-2006, 18:49
One thing I'd like to see commented on are the two Special characters. I realize that they aren't very good in a tournament situation, but I'd like to build armies for them just for fun...

Has anyone had any experience with them?

The Gav
10-01-2006, 09:11
hi i have only just started playing warhammer, in facked i have only played one small game (and got smashed). i have joind the cambridge warhammer club whitch plays mostly 2250pt games. i have started to get a tomb kings army beacuse i liked the look of them.

this is the army i have made

2250point Tomb King Army

Lords

Tomb king 170pt General (joins unit of tomb guard)
Crown of king’s +40pt
Armour of the age’s +35pt
Shield +3pt
248pt



Heroes

Liche priest 115pt Hierophant
Cloak of the dunes +25pt
Hieratic jar +25pt
160pt


Liche priest 115pt
Mount +8pt
Enchanted shield + 10tp
133pt
293pt

Core units

25 Skeleton warriors 200pt
Armed with spars the shields +25pt
Light armour +25pt
Musician +5pt
Standard banner +10pt
Champion +10
275pt

12 Skeleton warriors 96pt
Armed with bows
Light armour +12pt
108pt

12 Skeleton warriors 96pt
Armed with bows
Light armour +12pt
108pt


8 Skeleton heavy horsemen 128pt
Armed with spears, light amour and shields
Musician +7pt
Standard-bearer +14
Champion +14pt
163pt

8 Skeleton heavy horsemen 128pt
Armed with spears, light amour and shields
Musician +7pt
Standard-bearer +14
Champion +14pt
163pt

817pt

Special units

24 Tomb guard 288pt (tomb king joins this unit)
Musician +6pt
Champion +12pt
Banner of the undying legion +25pt
331pt

3 carrions 72pt
72tp

4 Ushabtis 260pt
260pt
663pt

Rare units

Screaming skull catapults 90pt
Skulls of foe +20pt
110pt

Screaming skull catapults 90pt
Skulls of foe +20pt
110pt
220pt

Total 2241pt
9 pt left over


my tackics are to stay still hiting thing with the catapults and archer till they get to close.
then pull archers back and move Ushabtis in to close combat then spearmen and tomd gurad in to close combat.
i will get carrions to get in there way and get in behind them.
the mounted priest to stay close to combat casting speels.
useing the heavy horsemen perteck my flanks or flank them

so what do you think????

Morph
10-01-2006, 11:52
Ok The Gav, first up a little illegal bit of your army - a Liche Priest can't take an enchanted shield (wizards can't take armour/magic armour). Oh, and you haven't bought your Tomb Guard a standard bearer, but they've got a magic standard.

Secondly I'd strongly advise you to get another Liche Priest. TKs live and die (so to speak) on their magic phase. And you've no dispel scrolls (eek!), I'd advise at least 2.

Not sure about those heavy horseman. Remember they're not (a) fast or (b) good in combat, so their role as flankers isn't great. As they are fairly easy to beat in combat you're loosing 100 VPs from the standard alone. I'd drop one unit to fit the Priest + scrolls in. Protect that guy in the skeleton unit.

Plus, save a few points by dropping light armour on the archers. There really is no need for it.

I'd try and fit a scorpion in there somewhere, but not sure where to get the points from. Perhaps drop the other cavalry unit, or change it to a 5 man unit without command that can sit back and threaten flanks.

Mad Makz
10-01-2006, 22:44
The Gav, I'd combine the two units of 8 Heavy Horseman into one unit of 16 and give it the warbanner. That gives you one very fast unit that can break almost any unit in the game if it gets a flank charge. (Outnumbering, Fear Causing, Static resolution of 6 (7 if flanking).

Papa Onagal
11-01-2006, 05:32
Just a couple of tactical ideas...

If a large enough hill is available, you can put all of your bowmen together, and in 2 ranks of 12 get 24 shots-with Smiting you can do this in the magic pahse too (I have done this several times- with their 5+ auto hit it can be devastating:evilgrin: ). If they are all together, you can then reform them in the magic phase (Incantation of Urgency) before the enemy closes, giving you another warrior unit to fight with- or at least block them.

You may also consider getting some chariots- with a tomb king leading the army, they are a core choice, and anything that TK cavalry can do, chariots can do better. Otherwise, I would advise using a Prince for general, and taking a LHP for the hierophant- an extra PD and Dispel die are a good bargain for the trade.

WanderingRogue
11-01-2006, 07:23
also - (personal opinion), the tomb kings 2000k army (or there abouts), should have only about 600-750pts spent on three characters. And the lord should be a liche high priest.

Magic is your firend, the LHP does this with more bang for your buck. Tomb kings are ok but not great. use the rest of the points on nice outnumbering units (the real thing that will win combats); and get some scorpions, i use mine as a combat character, i love killing blow!:p

The Gav
13-01-2006, 08:43
this is the changes i have made

2250point Tomb King Army

Lords

Liche high priest 245pt Hierophant
Cloak of the dunes +20pt
Hieratic jar +25pt

290pt

Heroes

Tomb prince 100pt General (joins unit of chariots)
Scorpion Armour +40pt
Shield +2pt
Chariot +45pt
Spear +2pt
189pt

Liche priest 115pt
Dispel scroll +25
140pt

Liche priest 115pt
Dispel scroll +25
140pt

469pt

Core units

20 Skeleton warriors 180pt
Armed with spars the shields +20pt
Light armour +20pt
Musician +5pt
Standard banner +10pt
Champion +10
225pt

12 Skeleton warriors 96pt
Armed with bows
96pt

12 Skeleton warriors 96pt
Armed with bows
96

417pt

Special units

25 Tomb guard 300pt
Musician +6pt
Champion +12pt
Standard-bearer +12pt
Banner of the undying legion +25pt
355pt

3 carrions 72pt
72tp

4 Ushabtis 260pt
260pt

4 chariots 160pt (tomb prince joins this unit)
Armed with spears
160pt
847pt

Rare units

Screaming skull catapults 90pt
Skulls of foe +20pt
110pt

Screaming skull catapults 90pt
Skulls of foe +20pt
110pt
220pt

Total 2243pt
7 pt left over

so what do you think now???

i dont really know what im going to do with chariots, i guessi will put them in the middle insted of the ushadti. but then what do i do with the ushabti??

WanderingRogue
13-01-2006, 11:36
i like it!. i wouldnt have gone with tomb guard (but thats purely a personal pref)

ushabti(which work better in three's (less unwieldly)) can do very well as a kind of flanking force - i stick 10 sacraficial bow men in front too, to stop em getting shot at.

the big units of skellies are "sponge"units which absorb the charge and then you pile stuff in with the heaffty strength (ushabti/scorpions/prince + chariots)

if i were to say:
ushabti down to 3
chariots down to 3
make the tomb guard normal warriors
use the points to get a scorpion and another warrior unit

then that would be pretty much my own army;) lol! but go ahead looks a strong list (though i like my scorpion ).

two last tips

staff of ravening - perfect for magic offence (drawing out more dispell dice), and kicks skimishers to the curb nicely.

musicians - dont see the point, if you lose a tie its one wound (who cares!) and you cant use their rally ability as you never run away!

tell us how the first outing goes.
gary

Morph
13-01-2006, 15:01
musicians - dont see the point, if you lose a tie its one wound (who cares!) and you cant use their rally ability as you never run away!


Surely you can't be serious! Since a lot of your tactics should involve trying to autobreak the enemy in close combat, a musician is totally essential. It lets you win combats!

Plus Skeleton Musicians are cheap. Cheaper than a skeleton. So overall if you lose one wound because you didn't have a musician you've wasted points, it would have been cheaper to buy one.

WanderingRogue
13-01-2006, 15:14
with my skellies -they are just sponges ( i can count on one finger the times i've drawn a combat with a skellie unit - and by then they we out numbered)

they get changed (on purpose)- loose a lot cos their poo, and hold - then you counter charge (ushabti or chariots in the side - lots of damage, no ranks - i win by a fair few). thats how i use my skellie block.

plus most combat units will have their own musician - having one doesnt make you win any combat unless the opposing unit doesnt have one (and this means skimishers/archers etc - where your ranks/'fear/outnumbering will do em over alone)

if your tactics or way of using em are different then, sure why not, it cant hurt. my tactics just make the things moot. i either win by a lot or loose by a lot, so i dont take em.

but at the end of the day its only five points

The Gav
13-01-2006, 21:26
i cant tack a tomb scorpion because i all ready have 4 special units. what would you recommend i get ride of??? and is it worth it???

what i think i will do is drop the ushabti to 3 and chariot down to 3 as well.
get ride of one tomb guard and put the prience in its place. up my spearmen to 25. and spent the rest on cavalry, (light or heavy ????)

WanderingRogue
14-01-2006, 14:11
nice - like i say id swop tomb quard for skellie - but hay.

but heavy cav for big units of for combat or 5-6 light horse for general getting in the way.

i use 5 heavy horse with no command for flank charges
g

mightygerm
15-01-2006, 07:05
Two questions:
How much magic do you think is enough is 2000pts to overwhelm your enemy? I'm debating between:
HLP + LP + TP + Casket + Ravening + Undying Banner
HLP + LP + TP + TP or LP + Ravening + Undying Banner

Both cast 7 times / phase, but in the second case it would have 2 SSCs while the first list has one and the casket.

Second question is: How do you field a decent list at 1000pts? What do you go for? I tend to play mostly defensive.

Edit: Regarding minimum unit sizes, can you add a prince in a chariot to a unit of 2 chariots to get the minimum 3? Or must you have 3 rank and file chariots to fit the minimum size?

WanderingRogue
15-01-2006, 18:46
Edit: Regarding minimum unit sizes, can you add a prince in a chariot to a unit of 2 chariots to get the minimum 3? Or must you have 3 rank and file chariots to fit the minimum size?

not that im aware - its min size three per unit - the tomb characters are not forced to stay in the unit, so i take it as they are seperate. so u need to get 3 chariots on top of your character


Second question is: How do you field a decent list at 1000pts? What do you go for? I tend to play mostly defensive.

u dont really - tomb kings are magic heavy and need large units - to things u cant do under 1500pts realy



How much magic do you think is enough is 2000pts to overwhelm your enemy? I'm debating between:

well, i think enough and too much are very close. i think enough (which leaves you with enough point to get a respectable ammount of models on table is 300 -350pts per 1000. So my 200 magic goes somthing like this:

lhp + ravening, lp + jar, tp, undying. giving four incantations + two bounds spells. if you take 1 dice or bound item as an eqivalaent of a power dice - that gives you 11 power dice a turn! -quite sufficient i think

gary

Morph
16-01-2006, 08:52
Two questions:
How much magic do you think is enough is 2000pts to overwhelm your enemy? I'm debating between:
HLP + LP + TP + Casket + Ravening + Undying Banner
HLP + LP + TP + TP or LP + Ravening + Undying Banner

Both cast 7 times / phase, but in the second case it would have 2 SSCs while the first list has one and the casket.

Second question is: How do you field a decent list at 1000pts? What do you go for? I tend to play mostly defensive.

Edit: Regarding minimum unit sizes, can you add a prince in a chariot to a unit of 2 chariots to get the minimum 3? Or must you have 3 rank and file chariots to fit the minimum size?


How much magic? I play with HLP + LP + LP + TP + Undying Banner, and a Hieretic Jar for a surprise spell (totally worth it). This seems to overwhelm pretty much most players. Casting 6 automatic spells is more than most armies can manage. I keep meaning to try and squeeze in the Staff of Ravening but my Liche Priests are loaded with Dispel Scrolls.

In 1,000 points I think you should go as defensive as possible and hope for the best. A catapult, archers. Not really tried that size game, TKs tend to fall down when they can't overwhelm with magic.

As WanderingRogue says, I believe you have to have 3 chariots, then add the prince in (so you end up with 4 chariots).

CuLane
25-01-2006, 08:58
hi i have only just started playing warhammer, in facked i have only played one small game (and got smashed). i have joind the cambridge warhammer club whitch plays mostly 2250pt games. i have started to get a tomb kings army beacuse i liked the look of them.

this is the army i have made

2250point Tomb King Army

Lords

Tomb king 170pt General (joins unit of tomb guard)
Crown of kings +40pt
Armour of the ages +35pt
Shield +3pt
248pt



Heroes

Liche priest 115pt Hierophant
Cloak of the dunes +25pt
Hieratic jar +25pt
160pt


Liche priest 115pt
Mount +8pt
Enchanted shield + 10tp
133pt
293pt

Core units

25 Skeleton warriors 200pt
Armed with spars the shields +25pt
Light armour +25pt
Musician +5pt
Standard banner +10pt
Champion +10
275pt

12 Skeleton warriors 96pt
Armed with bows
Light armour +12pt
108pt

12 Skeleton warriors 96pt
Armed with bows
Light armour +12pt
108pt


8 Skeleton heavy horsemen 128pt
Armed with spears, light amour and shields
Musician +7pt
Standard-bearer +14
Champion +14pt
163pt

8 Skeleton heavy horsemen 128pt
Armed with spears, light amour and shields
Musician +7pt
Standard-bearer +14
Champion +14pt
163pt

817pt

Special units

24 Tomb guard 288pt (tomb king joins this unit)
Musician +6pt
Champion +12pt
Banner of the undying legion +25pt
331pt

3 carrions 72pt
72tp

4 Ushabtis 260pt
260pt
663pt

Rare units

Screaming skull catapults 90pt
Skulls of foe +20pt
110pt

Screaming skull catapults 90pt
Skulls of foe +20pt
110pt
220pt

Total 2241pt
9 pt left over


my tackics are to stay still hiting thing with the catapults and archer till they get to close.
then pull archers back and move Ushabtis in to close combat then spearmen and tomd gurad in to close combat.
i will get carrions to get in there way and get in behind them.
the mounted priest to stay close to combat casting speels.
useing the heavy horsemen perteck my flanks or flank them

so what do you think????

Ok, well I have a few suggestions. First I prefer to give my TK the Destroyer when he's on foot, collar of shapesh is good with that, as is vambraces of the sun. Your priests can't take any armour, magical or mundane so the shield has to go. I've never used skeletons in blocks like that 25 block you have, but I do love my tomb guard. Speaking of which, maybe go with +1 to hit on first round of combat or additiona +1 to CR instead of undying legion. I'd combine the Cav units to form one monster block of "armoured light cav" as we call them when I run them. All that CR from 3 ranks and US 32 really adds up. I like the full three LP's in my 2k-2.999k lists with a TK leading. I like the two catapults, they do rock. I'm not overly fond of Ushabti... But you should throw a unit of chariots in because they are incredible flankers with the fast cav rule. I like my Carrion, glad to see them out there. I also LOVE my scorpions and run two in the lists. I take a unit of 6 Fast Cav just to take them, it's 84 pts, it's a core slot, and they can claim quadrants if nothing else. Also 2 tomb swarms is a great bargain. US 6, 10 poisoned attacks, you can destroy wandering characters and warmachines.
Good hunting.

CuLane
25-01-2006, 09:50
Tomb Swarms Crumble?

I really do not think so. Using the standard method of rules analysis - i.e. the specific overrides the general - Tomb Swarms do not suffer from combat resolution.

1.) Undead are not "Unbreakable", as per the special rule. Rather, they do not break from combat, and instead suffer additional wounds based on the degree to which they lost combat.

2.) Tombs Swarms in their entry under the "Swarms" special rule clearly states that they are "Unbreakable", as per the special rule, thus overriding the usual combat resolution for Undead units.

Before you say it was an oversight, the Mortals of Chaos Army Book clearly states that Nurglings are not Unbreakable, as they suffer from instability. If Tomb Swarms were meant to suffer combat resolution as per other Undead units them either "Unbreakable" would not have been included in the "Swarm" rule or it would have specifically stated that they suffer from combat resolution in the same manner as other undead.

Cheers
I appreciate your effort here but I don't believe this is a case as you laid it out. I quote "Undead units cannot be broken, but Undead units beaten in combat suffer one additional wound for every point they lose combat by..." While the unbreakable rule is as follows: "These troops never break in close combat... If defeated in close combat... unbreakable troops continue to fight on regardless of the results." The two rules don't really refer to each other. Unbreakable units can still "lose combat" for purposes of expanding frontage/lapping around, who strikes first when tied for initiative and so forth. Therefore it seems to me that since they can still "be beaten in combat" they should still "suffer one additional wound for every point they lose combat by." Seems to me anyway. On a related note do you march your swarms? Even though the letter of the rule for skirmishers is "moving at the double" I've always thought it was against the spirit of being undead. No worries either way.

CarlostheCraven
25-01-2006, 12:54
Umm, lets just leave this alone, ok?

It got ported to another thread, arguing ensued, the thread got closed as nothing productive got done. My hope is for a clarification either way in a 7th ed FAQ a la 40k.

Well, I guess the only thing that did get done was determining that taking tomb swarms to a tournament is probably not a good idea

And no I do not "double pace" with them. In fact, that issue was addressed in an errata on skirmishers.

Cheers

CuLane
25-01-2006, 20:49
Umm, lets just leave this alone, ok?

It got ported to another thread, arguing ensued, the thread got closed as nothing productive got done. My hope is for a clarification either way in a 7th ed FAQ a la 40k.

Well, I guess the only thing that did get done was determining that taking tomb swarms to a tournament is probably not a good idea

And no I do not "double pace" with them. In fact, that issue was addressed in an errata on skirmishers.

Cheers

Thanks for the help on the skirmish issue. A close friend of mine played TK years before I did and told me he didn't double pace them so I never did. It's good to hear support on that.

DeathlessDraich
21-02-2006, 18:11
I normally play against Empire, Bretonnians and Ogre Kingdoms. The opposing armies employed a heavy magic bias and their tactic of targetting the Hierophant nearly always worked.
The standard TK 5 Dispel Dice and 2 scrolls is no guarantee especially if my opponent has 3 spells which do not require LOS. I can scroll or use dispel dice for about 2 rounds and then the risk of a dead Hierophant becomes highly probable - it's practically impossible to use 5 dice to dispel 3 non LOS spells. Even 2 such spells are dangerous!
The empire player chooses lore of fire and heavens from 3 battle wizards, the bretonninan player use lore of life and in both cases if they get the right spells, my Hierophant is doomed!
Non LOS magic like Conflagration of Doom, Master of Wood/Stone, Father of the Thorn, Uranon's Thunderbolt, Forked Lightning etc inevitably puts the Hierophant in a difficult position or kills it outright by turn 4:) or so.
The same thing happened against a second generation Slann. The hierophant was obliterated by turn 3. Against Ogre Kingdom, Bonecruncher, the Hierophant survived until my opponent decided to use 3 butchers and then it was the same story - dead Hierophant in round 4.
This predictably means I have to use a bubble defence around my tomb king and even then all low leadership units will crumble to dust by turn 6.
My only hope is a miscast!
Has anyone else experienced this?:)

Okuto
22-03-2006, 14:43
yea, I find TK unable to really provide a decent magic defense. I recall playing Brets and was too afraid to go into the woods in fear of getting offed by the trees, then I ended up getting chased across the board by peg knights.

I really wished liches could produce 2 dispelll dice......

Star.Scream
22-03-2006, 19:03
yea, I find TK unable to really provide a decent magic defense. I recall playing Brets and was too afraid to go into the woods in fear of getting offed by the trees, then I ended up getting chased across the board by peg knights.

I really wished liches could produce 2 dispelll dice......

>>>>>If your having problems with Magic Defence and have some spare points available on your TK/TP, consider takig the Brooch of the Great Desert, it fullfills the same roll as a Dispell Scroll, but it's not an Arcane Item (Liche only items), its a Enchanted Item, meaning your other characters can use it.

I do agree though, Unless your running a HLP army, magic Defence can be a bit of a problem.

The Devil's Right Hand
23-03-2006, 21:57
carrion and tomb scorpions to kill enemy wizards. they're fantastic at it.

liche high priest is a must IMO. make sure to give him the "pass over the wound on a 4+" item (can't remember its name). the cloak. drop the badboy in a unit if he's getting singled out by those lightening bolts, preferably in a unit with the banner of the undying legion so they can be massivly reserected to keep the heiro alive.

then lastly, make your units provide a bigger threat to the enemy than the heirophant does... this is tricky, but the carrion and chariots and ushabti can threaten weak points of the enemy line right quick.

Lord Brrrp
24-03-2006, 03:49
Working on tactica for tomb kings next.

Frankly
24-03-2006, 05:27
yea, I find TK unable to really provide a decent magic defense. I recall playing Brets and was too afraid to go into the woods in fear of getting offed by the trees, then I ended up getting chased across the board by peg knights.

I really wished liches could produce 2 dispell dice......

Hmmmm .... I don't understand what you mean, high priest and 2 preist give you 6 dispel dice plus dispel scrolls, thats enough to put a dent in most other magic phase.

Also yu have flyers and scorpions that can deal with spell casters.

I've never had a problem against magic heavy armylists.

WanderingRogue
24-03-2006, 07:11
Vs magic heavy armys you just got to suck it im afraid. Target the wizards obviously but at the end of the day its a balancing factor for the khemri undead. You'll suffer to magic but then again so should they - keep the herophant save and heal casualltys. A bonus though is that if magic heavy he will have alot less troops meaning you should have a better chance for those outnumbering combats.

Though if you opponents likes using remains in play stuff (high elves, fire wizards etc etc) then take the kanopil too - very handy.

oma
26-03-2006, 21:56
i was thinking about a TK team, listen to this:

TK chariot, about 100 points magic points (US 5, chariot doesn't break at S7 and other things)
3 liche priests, with about 100 magic points total
1 toomb swarm
10 chariots (2x5)
5 ushabti
24 toombguards (with undying legion)

how would this do?

Star.Scream
27-03-2006, 16:58
i was thinking about a TK team, listen to this:

TK chariot, about 100 points magic points (US 5, chariot doesn't break at S7 and other things)
3 liche priests, with about 100 magic points total
1 toomb swarm
10 chariots (2x5)
5 ushabti
24 toombguards (with undying legion)

how would this do?

>>>>>>I like the feel of the list, to be honest it may be considerd underpowerd, but it still looks like fun! I like to run lots of chariots too, and I find units of 5 are a bit unwieldy, 4 to a unit (including characters chariots) seems to work fine, there's enough unit strength to cause some problems, but its not overly large and hard to squeeze through tight spots.

You may consider shaving the Tomb Guard back to 20 instead of 24, unless you plan to run a 6X4, in which case it should work fine.

Just try to get a few test games in with proxy units, that should help you mold your list to your liking.

Darkspear
31-03-2006, 02:27
I find that the key to protecting liche priest is to take onli 2 of them(gasp!) and take only a king and a prince. treat the prince as a lesser liche priest than do not suffer from mage hunting. as for the liche priests, field them inside large units such as skeleton blocks or heavy cav blocks for mounted priests. I too have face magic intensive armies before, and i had to rely a lot on scorpions for mage hunting duty. fortunately tomb kings are relatively resilent due to the fact that we can bring back "dead" troops. a spear of antharak is also great to provide healing especially when the enemy has loads of DD.

DeathlessDraich
15-04-2006, 09:17
This sounds like a good solution DarkSpear. Definitely worth considering.

Kordos
15-04-2006, 09:51
Can we have a look at your standard army list Draich ?

Aekold
15-04-2006, 14:32
How exactly does the incantaion order work? Is it my Tomb king and bound items then all my liches? or TK first then hierphant then any order of lich priests?


feeling a little daunted by this. Strange magic system.

Kordos
15-04-2006, 14:40
1. All bound items not used by characters (ala magic banners held by standard bearers

2. Icon Bearer's bound items

3. Tomb Price my will be done

4. Tomb King my will be done

5. Hieratic hierarchy (this is the order you decide before the game that your priest will cast use thier incantations with the hierophant as the most important priests (thus going last in the order) and LHP's are more important than just a LP

6. casket of souls

Aekold
15-04-2006, 15:33
ahh seems like a get it now heh. thx man =)

Aekold
16-04-2006, 02:39
Anyways my first match whit TK. A draw against Dark elvs.

Anyways. a few probs i have. How shall i kill his cold one knighs? and their war hydra? Cause that is the 2 things that i cant kill. I tried a flank charge against knights whit a tomb scorp. but nope....my scorp died. he dident even kill one singel model. And the damn warhydra! HOW in the desert gods name shall i kill it?

gahh

Aekold
16-04-2006, 02:44
Oww and i did forget one thing. I really love the TK way of battling. Very very fun army to play i think. Thou hard to get the spells thru all those dispel. Otherwise they are very fun. My Tomb King whit Destroyer and collar of shapesh really did kick some seroius @ss! That big unit whit skeletons, 40 skels whit command and the king heh. And the banner of undying legion, or what the name was. SO damn hard unit. i kicked all of his blocks of troops...well not the damn hydra. It was down my flank killing everything!

Hope you guys can help a future TK player =)

Kordos
16-04-2006, 07:58
Post your army list so we know what your fighting with

DeathlessDraich
16-04-2006, 13:05
Hi Kordos

This is my standard Army list:
1 Tomb King (accompanies Tomb Guard)
Gt Weapon
Vambraces
Golden Ankhra
1 Liche Priest
Hieratic Jar, Cloak of Dunes

1 Liche Priest
Dispel Scroll
1 Liche Priest on Casket
Dispel Scroll
10 Skeleton Bowmen
12 Skeleton Warriors
3 Chariots

The skeletons are sacrificials for a good charge from Ushabti or Tomb Guard

12 Tomb Guards
15 Tomb Guards
with banner of Undying Legion
1 Tomb Scorpion
3 Ushabti
1 Screaming Skull Catapult

Kordos
17-04-2006, 00:06
hmmm I run my 2000pt list with TK and 3 priests as well and don’t have much problems with enemy magic

Have you tried out the destroyer of eternities on your Tomb King ? I used it once and have never looked back – infact it’s the only magic item my tomb king has.

Maybe if you took your two tomb guard units and turned it into one unit of 25, using the left over points to spend on skellies (which are really just speed bumps) then you have a nice big unit that can fight back hard and maybe draw away some of the attention your opponents seem to be placing on your hierophant.

Other things I suggest you experiment with would be to squeeze in another tomb scorp and see how that goes then try out a list with two catapults and see how that goes

DeathlessDraich
17-04-2006, 12:18
2 questions Kordos:
1) How many dispel scrolls have you got?
2) I tend to start the game with the Hierophant in a unit unless I'm absolutely sure there is no magic that can isolate him, especially tabletop magic. If there isn't there is no problem but I normally face magic heavy Ogre Kingdoms (3 Butchers), magic heavy Empire (with Cannon, Hell blaster and Steam tank!) and magic heavy Lizardmen (2nd gen Slann!) who all invariably use non LOS magic with 12 power dice or 5 attempted spells.
3) I don't like the idea of placing the Hierophant with skellies. No matter how big the skeleton unit is, opponents immediately label it with a BIG bullseye. By turn 2 or 3 the Hierophant has to move out because of an impending charge and then he becomes fair game.
4) That leaves me with a Tomb guard unit. If I have just one unit, then the tomb king has to join it. The Hierophant has to run to a safe spot from turn 3 or so onwards which renders his essential magic less effective which is why I have 2 Tomb guard units, even though the 2nd unit is weak.
5) Except when playing against the Empire player Wizard hunting is practically impossible although my Scorpion killed a Butcher after flank charging a unit of Ogre bulls once but my opponents have sufficient experience to avoid mistakes like that.
6) I tend to use a basic bubble defence with chariots further away waiting hopefully for a juicy flank charge. Tomb King magic gets me essential charges in round 3 usually. If I break a unit in that round I stand a good chance, if not ... a slow painful and eventually crumbling death!

Well .. that in a nutshell is the problem. :) Hope it wasn't too long:o

I like the idea of 2 Tomb scorpions, Kordos and I would certainly prefer a larger Tomb Guard block but do you think a large block of skellies in place of the smaller Tomb guard unit would work?

Kordos
17-04-2006, 13:36
1: I have 2 scrolls in my army

2: Yes I think a larger block will work better than 2 small units

I think your just going to have to try some different army lists and tactics and see what works and what doesn't - i really suggest another tomb scorp as I know my friends spend alot of their game time worrying about them.

Aekold
17-04-2006, 15:40
Here is my list. :D



2005 Pts - Tomb Kings Army

1 Unas The slayer (Tomb King) @ 265 Pts
Casting Order (x1); General
Destroyer of Eternities
Collar of Shapesh
*************************************************

1 Namon Rah (Liche Priest) @ 160 Pts
Casting Order (x2)
Staff of Ravening
*************************************************

1 Aranam (Liche Priest) @ 160 Pts
Casting Order (x3)
Dispel Scroll
Enkhil's Kanopi
*************************************************

1 Nerash (Liche Priest) @ 160 Pts
Casting Order (x4); Hierophant
Cloak of the Dunes
Hieratic Jar
*************************************************

40 Skeleton Warriors @ 400 Pts
Shield; Light Armour; Standard; Musician
Banner of the Undying Legion
*************************************************

25 Skeleton Warriors @ 210 Pts
Bow; Standard
*************************************************

3 Skeleton Chariots @ 140 Pts
Standard

3 Skeleton Warrior @ [0] Pts
Spear; Normal Bow

6 Skeletal Steed @ [0] Pts

3 Skeleton Driver @ [0] Pts
*************************************************

3 Skeleton Chariots @ 140 Pts
Standard

3 Skeleton Warrior @ [0] Pts
Spear; Normal Bow

6 Skeletal Steed @ [0] Pts

3 Skeleton Driver @ [0] Pts
*************************************************


3 Ushabti @ 195 Pts
*************************************************

1 Tomb Scorpion @ 85 Pts

*************************************************
1 Tomb Scorpion @ 85 Pts
*************************************************
Casting Pool: 2

Dispel Pool: 5

Models in Army: 80


Total Army Cost: 2000



All i need is to know how i shall kill the damn hydra and the damn cold one knights?

DeathlessDraich
17-04-2006, 21:43
Unaided, 40 skeletons will hold the hydra up for at least 4 combat rounds and 25 skeletons will hold up 5 COKs for about 3 rounds of combat, excluding Djedra summons, unless you're extremely unlucky.
They will have to hold until your hard hitting units arrive hopefully on the flanks.
The only other fast moving unit will probably be Dark Riders which probably be reluctant to charge unless it gets a flank. That leaves slower infantry which your Ushabti and chariots can deter.
It's probably better to delay a chariot charge even when one presents itself - DE players love to tempt a charge and then flee and destroy! Charging against units already in combat might be more fruitful.
Might work if you get your deployment right and if your Scorpion/s emerge early enough to wreak havoc on the warmachines or Xbowmen.

Sounds easy on paper, I know.;) but that'll be my basic strategy if he rushes forward with the Hydra and COKs.

Darkspear
18-04-2006, 10:17
Strange...Dark Elves have lots of problems vs Tombkings(I play both armies). given your list Aekold, i would try to coodrinate charges between chariots and scorpions on the knights. the problem with cold one knights is that they are not very strong when not charging and a 14inch charge range meant that we can out charge them. true, the de may have banner of murder(plus 1d6 charge range) , you just have to be prepared for that. the hydra is vulnerable to your lord and ushabtis, i suggest sending ur 2nd chariot unit on a sucidal attack to delay him while your ushabtis get ready to charge as a 2nd wave. the thing about druchii is that their good stuff are either special or rare and cost quite a lot. unless they take minimum core(thus freeing up a lot of points), winning the game should be easy once u take down these hard hitters. the main problem with your list is that its not very manuveurable(half of ur army is fast yet your characters r too slow to cast spell or them therefore weakening ur manuveurability)

as a result, either you use ur chariots as delaying/sucidal units or you hold all your fast stuff back as reserves and use them as a counterattacking force. holding cavalry(ok chariots in this case) back as reserves is a workable tacitc but rely a lot on judgement

Aekold
18-04-2006, 12:50
So you are saying that i shall have my tk in a chariot? and the liches on horses?

hmm i think they keep up whit the army my liches. Well yeah i think i did charge those cold ones whit both chariots and a flank on them whit a scorp...i died. horribly.

DeathlessDraich
18-04-2006, 18:52
Thats expected. You can't knock out COKs via number of wounds only - It has to be a combination of wounds and combat resolution.
5 Combat res pts from your fully ranked skellies; a further point from the flank charge. In addition you should inflict 0.99 wounds from your scorpion (4 X 0.5 X 0.66 X 0.66) and 0.2 wounds from your skellies. Total 7.2
Against this (assuming he has 5 COKs) who will target your skellies, he gets
0.7 wounds from his knights and 1.11 wounds from the cold ones.
Total (banner, 1 + 1.81 wounds) = 2.81.
You should win unless you're unlucky or my calculations are wrong! lol

Mirunir
16-12-2006, 20:18
I would like to know which rare unit is the best to take againts what. I like the looks of the bone giant, but they can be quite ineffective if they miss their attacks on the charge, and they cost so much points! I never tryed the catapult but it looks easier to make it worth its points. It seems to me that a bone giant will never be as effective as 3 or 4 Ushabtis or 2 catapults with skulls of the foe.

Also could someone tell me description of the smiting incantion? I only got a french book and I'm not sure to understand all of it.

Kroxhandler
18-12-2006, 13:19
I've got two issues with TK ,now that the 7th edition is out, that I hope someone can help me resolve:

1) Does the Tomb Swarms suffer an allergic reaction to combat resolution from both being swarms(7th ed. rules) AND being undead?

2) How do you make TK work in small battles? 500 pts Combat Patrol being the first that comes to mind.

DeathlessDraich
18-12-2006, 15:19
Good questions Kroxhandler.

Q1) I see it as 2 identical rules instead of 2 rules which 'double up'. Reason - CR can only be done once and therefore in one way only.

Q2) Very difficult especially against armies which are large at 500pts. Maximum no. of characters and 1 unit of Tomb Guard as the only hard hitting unit with small units of bowmen and/or Skellies is the combination that's worked for me.

Kroxhandler
23-12-2006, 11:35
Found a couple of thread in the rules section about Tomb Swarms, seems GW has made another fine mess. I'd go with the general advice, stomping them only once, so that they don't get totally useless...

Throwing in a medium sized unit of Tomb Guards seems like a solid choice for 500 pts border patrols, not much else in the list that fight resonably well and don't cost bucketloads of points. Pity about the 125 pts limit or else the mandatory Liche Priest would probably get an item or two. Is there anyone with a good experience of using Chariots or Horsemen in a BP setting?

jahorin
11-01-2007, 02:39
I'm going to start building my own tomb king army. The style of play is quite different from my other armies (orc & goblins, deamoninc legion (all except khorne) and wood elves).

I've read the entire thread today (it was not busy at work) I was wondering. Is a TK army viable without 4 characters at 2000 pts?

Could I do an army with TK,LP,IconBearer and hope to survive and win?

Thanks for the input

(edit : here's the list i was thinking about when asking my question)

Tomb King (264 Pts)
Flail; Light Armor; Shield
Chariot
Crown of Kings

Liche Priest (140 Pts)
1 Hieratic Jar

Icon Bearer (125 Pts)
Light Armor; Banner of the Hidden Dead

20 Tomb Guard (304 Pts)
w/full command; Icon of Rakaph

Tomb Scorpion (85 Pts)

5 Carrion (120 Pts)

1 Screaming Skull Catapult (90 Pts)

1 Screaming Skull Catapult (90 Pts)


*6 Skeleton Heavy Horsemen (96 Pts)
*for the banner of the hidden dead

25 Skeleton Warriors (270 Pts)
Champion, Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armor; Shield;
Banner of the Undying Legion

25 Skeleton Warriors (245 Pts)
Champion, Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armor; Shield

3 Chariots (165 Pts)
Standard Bearer Std; War Banner

so basically the king rushes with the chariot and the carrion. the scorpion hunt lone mages of warmachine. and the SSC tries to kill some troops before my main unit start to see some HtH action. what do you think?

i'm still not sure to where to put the LP and the Icon bearer. probably one in each unit of skeleton.

Comments?

Cragspyder
29-01-2007, 21:54
If anyone still reads this thread, here is my list... I've just recently started playing my Tomb Kings, had models sitting around for ages but just recently painted em. My Tomb Scorpion must have been sitting around for 4 months :). They are my favourite model in the whole army but they sure are a pain to glue together! This is an 1000 pointer.

Tomb Prince (great weapon, chariot, Scorpion Armour) = 189

Liche Priest (mounted, Hieratic Jar) = 148

15 Skeleton Warriors (bows, full command) = 145

8 Heavy Horsemen (full command, Banner of the Undying Legion) = 188

5 Light Horsemen = 70

3 Chariots (full command) = 170

Tomb Scorpion = 85

= 995 points

In my one battle so far I got utterly trashed by Dwarves (which I expected since they had a cannon for my Chariots and 4 dispel dice) ><. It was something along the lines of...

Thane with 15 Warriors
10 Miners (ambushing)
10 Longbeards
10 Slayers
15 Thunderers
1 Cannon
1 Organ Gun

I ICFB'ed my Scorpion and got the organ gun and the Longbeards died eventually but the rest of my army was utterly humiliated :). Chariots were all killed by the cannon (got the Tomb Prince's chariot on Turn 1, luckily he was unharmed). Longbeards blocked my Heavy Horse while the Slayers ripped apart my Skeleton unit (and newly attached Prince) with maybe 1 death. Longbeards lost to the Heavy Horse but they pursued right into range of the Thunderers and were annihilated :) Of course, I did forget to use my Hieratic jar and to roll for ICFB one turn, but that's just me. They seem to be a pretty tough fight at that points level anyways. Any suggestions other then going to 2000 points?

jahorin
30-01-2007, 02:03
i would go for more foot skeletons. less cavalry. if you want to take points without shelling out too much $$ maybe opt for a giant.

i'm looking to play my first game against dwarves soon. 'ill comment when i've played it.

Frobozz of the Nine
03-02-2007, 21:37
I am going to buy two battalions, which means 16 cavalry. I am considering having either 2x5 units of light cav + 6 heavy or 10 heavy + 6 light. Thoughts?

Does anyone else find it odd that the chariot drivers have armour on their torsos but yet have no armour in their rules, while heavy cavalry have light armour but the models have no armour on either their torsos or heads?

I plan to swap these parts around from the chariot drivers to cavalry to make them more consistent with their rules.

Cragspyder
05-02-2007, 16:05
Does anyone else find it odd that the chariot drivers have armour on their torsos but yet have no armour in their rules, while heavy cavalry have light armour but the models have no armour on either their torsos or heads?


Actually, light chariots have a 5+ armour save. Since all the individual parts of the chariot are considered one model it counts for the 'crew' too. I think it says this in the army list entry.

But yeah, heavy cavalry aren't wearing enough armour, though you can pick the body on the sprue with a circular frontal chestplate. In my own unit of 8 (I got them back when you got a rank bonus for 4 models wide), I have the front row with the chestplates :)

As to your unit selection, I would go with 10 heavy and 6 light, and make the light horsemen group with no command group. 10 Heavy horsemen give you a rank and the ability to outnumber even medium-sized foot units sometimes, and the command group will help you. The light cavalry are just used for shooting and flank charges, so no command as they won't be tieing combats on their own (so no musician), the unit is easy to kill (and you don't want to just hand over a 100 VP standard) and 2 attacks at WS 2 and STR 3 aren't worth it for a shooty unit. (so no champion). I've seen a tactica that advocates against taking Light Horse at all, but I do anyways.

Frobozz of the Nine
05-02-2007, 16:44
I agree on the chariot save, I was just saying that I thought it odd that GW chose to include armour on the chariot riders and not on the "heavy" horsemen.

Thanks for the comments on the light/heavy mix. I will definitely keep it in mind as I playtest my list.

One thing I am wondering about is the description of Liche Priests in the army book. It almost sounds like they are actually not undead (even though their rules state they are) since it says "they cannot die a natural death". So, are these guys just supposed to be ancient mages who never really died?

The reason I ask is that I'm considering alternate paint schemes for their skin, I don't really care for the way GW paints them. If they are truly "alive" then I might do with a slightly more fleshy-looking tone while keeping them ancient looking.


Actually, light chariots have a 5+ armour save. Since all the individual parts of the chariot are considered one model it counts for the 'crew' too. I think it says this in the army list entry.

But yeah, heavy cavalry aren't wearing enough armour, though you can pick the body on the sprue with a circular frontal chestplate. In my own unit of 8 (I got them back when you got a rank bonus for 4 models wide), I have the front row with the chestplates :)

As to your unit selection, I would go with 10 heavy and 6 light, and make the light horsemen group with no command group. 10 Heavy horsemen give you a rank and the ability to outnumber even medium-sized foot units sometimes, and the command group will help you. The light cavalry are just used for shooting and flank charges, so no command as they won't be tieing combats on their own (so no musician), the unit is easy to kill (and you don't want to just hand over a 100 VP standard) and 2 attacks at WS 2 and STR 3 aren't worth it for a shooty unit. (so no champion). I've seen a tactica that advocates against taking Light Horse at all, but I do anyways.

Cragspyder
06-02-2007, 03:04
Liche Priests follow all the rules for Undead (ie. they can't march, take wounds from combat resolution, etc) but the fluff says they are just really, really old, so close to being Undead that they are basically the same thing. :) I painted mine with fortress grey skin, instead of bleached bone like all the other models.

Esco Thomson
07-02-2007, 18:45
I have to say that I disagree with a few of you(well it seems more like the general consensus actually) on the SoA/SA combo. I have employed that along with the CoD on my TK and had great success with it. You just need to obviously think about where you are going to send him, and make the right choice, which really fits in with how the rest of the army plays out anyways. With single characters outside of units being able to be mowed down now, I have yet to wish that my Hierophant was out joyriding. I opt for him to stay in a sizable unit of skullheads, next to some SSC.

Being able to run amuk behind enemy lines, stopping to smash face with any foolish lone wizards/war machines as well as tying up blocks seems truly invaluable to me. It provides the necessary distraction to mobilize your forces and come in for the kill.

Cragspyder
26-03-2007, 17:25
Tactica threads should not be abandoned!

I have fought a few battles with my Tomb Kings now and I feel I have something more to contribute, especially in the 1000 point area which everyone feels we are hopeless at. My army size is only 1000 points currently so I have played all my games at this level.

I have fought Dwarves, Southlands Lizardmen and Orcs + Goblins with my list posted earlier in the thread. Being a new player I made quite a few newbie mistakes (such as deploying my Liche Priest out of a unit when facing Goblin Bolt Throwers...not pretty). So I revised my list slightly.

Tomb Prince (great weapon, chariot, Scorpion Armour) = 189
Liche Priest (mounted, Hieratic Jar, Sword of Might) = 168
15 Skeleton Archers (full command) = 145
7 Skeleton Heavy Horsemen (full command, Banner of the Undying Legion) = 172
5 Skeleton Light Horsemen = 70
3 Skeleton Chariots (full command) = 170
Tomb Scorpion = 85

= 999 points

This has served me fairly well versus Ogre Kingdoms and twice versus Orcs and Goblins. I lost the OK game as I had no idea how hardcore Bruisers were, and I won one Orcs + Goblins game by turn 3 (he packed up as I had wiped out half of his army for nearly no casualties), and quite nearly won the other game as it was decided on basically half an inch of movement. Here is a quick summary of that game:

I win turn 1 and advance with my units.

He called Waaagh! which I had forgotten about and got the charge on my chariot unit with 6 Boar Boyz and a Hero on a Boar. Between the magic banner of extra attacks in the unit and the charge, my chariots and Tomb Prince was wiped out. At this point I thought I had lost already.

However, he luckily chose not to overrun and I get a flank with my Heavy Horsemen (with Liche Priest), and run him off the table. So we're pretty even as that unit was expensive.

Turn 3 I am back on the table and use the Hieratic Jar to get a charge into the flank of a Boyz unit which was advancing on my remaining archers. They were autobroken and run down. I got a 14 for pursuit, which was off by the merest fraction of an inch of overunning into the flank of his other major Boyz unit. This would have won me the game, as he had Arrer Boys and 2 Bolt Throwers left that were about to get eaten by my Scorpion. However my Horsemen got charged and killed the following turn :(

Anyways, here are my observations.

TP on chariot: Expensive and has only been really useful for the incantation dice so far, but I don't think my chariots would pack enough of a punch without him (the extra chariot). I want to switch to a flail and shield but I don't have the model for it yet, as the great weapon got nerfed with 7th edition. I also am considering ditching the Scorpion Armour, as it has been kinda useful, but since my Chariots are always winning combat or dying instantly I think I might be better off with something else.

Liche Priest on Horse: Now that he is always with the Heavy Horse he works really well, as he is safe (safer...) and can get the incantation I need off on my harder hitting units, especially with the Hieratic Jar (which is a amazing item and should always be taken as your first choice of magic item). I gave him the Sword of Might so he does not weaken the Heavy Horse unit on the charge, which I feel has worked alright. The only disadvantage is the Liche Priest being attacked (as he is my Hierophant as well), but I do try to charge in the flanks with this unit, which is made easier with Incantations. Flank charges seriously cut down on return attacks.

15 Skeleton Archers: I feel this is working for me as they get at least one wound per shooting phase usually, and Smiting is an even bigger gain then standard 10 man units, that the enemy usually doesn't bother to stop. Plus these guys serve as a ranked unit, though I have not had a use for a big ranked unit as yet. My flank charges either auto-break the enemy units or I am charged myself and wiped out... But they would have wiped out my Archers anyways...

7 Heavy Horsemen: It is seven because I wanted to fit the Liche Priest in and still have it look good :) But seriously this unit has been a killer for me. Despite all the bad things people say about Heavy Horsemen, Fear-causing US 16 in a flank with 5 Str 4 attacks and 4 Str 3 attacks has not failed to break the unit I have charged yet. This unit gets utterly destroyed if it is charged from any direction however, which makes sense, and their fragility is why I keep the BotUL in it, to save magic dice for other Liche Priest magic. Ideally the sheer summoning power could keep them alive for long enough to have a unit rescue them, though I haven't had the oppourtunity for this to happen yet.
Note: A Ogre Bruiser in the rear of this unit is the worst thing ever and it lost me my OK game, as he causes so much CR even solo (the fat bastard is US 5 with 5 WS 5 Str 5 attacks....and then there is the Sword Gnoblars...).

5 Light Horsemen: This unit seems to serve its purpose as I have had people charge it to run off the board. Even directing a unit to deal with them is a plus in my eyes. They are my cheapest unit and they still do a couple wounds every so often with shooting.

3 Chariots: My other hard-hitting unit though it seems a lot more luck-based as they actually have less US then the Heavy Horse (US 13 vs 16), and those stupid D3 impact hits. I may ditch the Scorpion armour for Chariot of Fire just to improve the unit as a whole. They also seem to be a fire magnet and really very fragile (and I don't mean against Str 7, I mean in general). But the Fast Cav ability is wonderful! Setting up for flank charges just became 4x easier.

Tomb Scorpion: My favourite model in the range and he is just awesome (overpowered?). He hasn't failed to come up on me yet which I assume will sting (lawl), but he hasn't come up on Turn 2 either which doesn't help me much. Still very neat and hard unit and I'll add another once I go to 1500.

Overall, armies with low dispel dice I have done much better with. The OK list took no magic which allowed me to get melee Smitings off on occasion, which is not likely as I use my dice for Urgency, or in the first two turns, ranged Smiting or Vengeance.

Armies with high dispel dice I have a worse time with, but dispels can and do fail after all, and our spells don't. The local Redshirt boss was even surprised to find that our spells don't even fail if we roll less then 3 on 2 dice :). The Hieratic Jar is a godsend facing lots of dispel dice as at this level its usually only 5 dice at the maximum, and if they spend 2 on my TP's Urgency for the guarentee, I am golden.

My own magic defense is very light (3 dice, no scrolls) which has been a problem. I got Fist of Gork'ed for 11 Skeleton Archers in one shot... But so far magic hasn't won a game for my opponents yet.

Maelx
26-03-2007, 20:07
>>>>>>I like the feel of the list, to be honest it may be considerd underpowerd, but it still looks like fun! I like to run lots of chariots too, and I find units of 5 are a bit unwieldy, 4 to a unit (including characters chariots) seems to work fine, there's enough unit strength to cause some problems, but its not overly large and hard to squeeze through tight spots.

Uhh, chariots count as light cavalry. This means free reforms as many times as you want during your movement phase. You can always toss them through single file and THEN reform up into a solid block of 5 across.

Voltaire
22-04-2007, 10:59
BUMP

I have a question regarding heavy cavalry. Do people actually ever use them? I have been toying with the idea of a list that includes a big unit of 12 of these guys simply as support and weight of numbers to auto-break units?

Your Mum Rang
22-04-2007, 11:28
That's one of the ONLY valid uses for them!

jahorin
22-04-2007, 17:45
I've been checking that as well. Since I just ordered two battalions, I will need to find a use for all those skeleton calvary. I was thinking of a unit of 11 with standard, champion, with the war banner. To make the most of them I was thinking of including an Icon bearer vembrace and armour of +1W (sorry don't have my book near me and I'm too lazy to get up).
OR
Icon bearer with banner of +1 to in the first round of hand-to-hand. That way I would feel a bit safer to launch an assault with them.

Just a tough

Cragspyder
22-04-2007, 17:56
I don't feel right with a unit of 12 simply because for 3 more you could get rank bonuses :) Although the unit is expensive enough already.

I plan on using a unit of 15 eventually. I also plan on including an Icon Bearer with it as well. However, the unit will have the Banner of the Undying Legion as it will no doubt draw quite a bit of fire.

Hopefully it will do well when I support it with my other units that I plan to have (Ushabti, Chariots). I will need to wait for some paychecks before I can find out though :)

DeathlessDraich
22-04-2007, 18:02
25 Warriors with Std and Champ = 220 pts - 3 ranks for static CR and US 25
12 Heavy Horsemen with Std and Champ = 220pts with 1 rank for static CR and US 24.

The only advantages are;
a) faster movement and
b) 2 attacks when charging [5 spearmen have the same 10 attacks when defending but cost 1 or 2 pts more]
c) S4 when charging
d) better armour save

but the disadvantages are significant when compared to infantry -
1) 16 pts lost per wound inflicted instead of 8 pts
2) Fewer wounds can be restored or summoned
3) Tendency to move away from the 12" casting distance of the priests.
4) cannot shoot

Angelwing
22-04-2007, 18:10
I use a unit of 15 with icon bearer. Its problem (apart from missile magnet) is that its unwieldy, and can get in the way of other stuff. It needs to have support (say, combined with chariots) as it usually struggles to beat units.

Cragspyder
22-04-2007, 18:14
25 Warriors with Std and Champ = 220 pts - 3 ranks for static CR and US 25
12 Heavy Horsemen with Std and Champ = 220pts with 1 rank for static CR and US 24.

The only advantages are;
a) faster movement and
b) 2 attacks when charging [5 spearmen have the same 10 attacks when defending but cost 1 or 2 pts more]
c) S4 when charging
d) better armour save

but the disadvantages are significant when compared to infantry -
1) 16 pts lost per wound inflicted instead of 8 pts
2) Fewer wounds can be restored or summoned
3) Tendency to move away from the 12" casting distance of the priests.
4) cannot shoot

I'd say the better movement range and better attacks on the charge counts for a lot. And your warriors have no armour save (though they can indeed shoot, and I myself know the advantages of a block of infantry that can shoot and then reform to take charges). The Horsemen's better save will help them even out at least a little bit versus shooting against your warriors.

Of course, this has been discussed many times before. It can't be a coincidence that most people think the Horsemen come up short... but I personally think they both have their place in the army.

I've only played small games as of yet, so I ran with a unit of 8 Horsemen with full command straight out of the box. If I get in the flank, they have not failed to break any infantry block they have charged, and one of the units was a Black Orc unit with the General in it :)

However, they of course don't do so well in the front.

I know that a unit of 3 Ushabti or even 3 chariots could break a unit in the flank for less points, but they wouldn't be outnumbering. And your 25 skeletons couldn't get in the flank in the first place (though, once again, their usefulness lies elsewhere).

jahorin
22-04-2007, 20:43
So out of the 16 horseman I will get from my two battalions, I could assemble 11 as "heavy" horseman (to include Icon bear to make 12) and 5 has light horseman (to maybe hide a liche priest on horse (yeah... I'm stuck with that mini too...:cries: )

As for the Icon bearer, I could use the war banner, and the Summoning banner for the unit. Set this unit near the tomb prince riding a chariot in a unit of 3 chariots.

Any thoughts?

Cragspyder
23-04-2007, 04:04
Sounds like a decent plan. I just want to point out that with 7th edition you can hide mounted characters in blocks of infantry, making Liche Priests on horses much better then their foot variants.

Frankly
23-04-2007, 09:59
I'd say the better movement range and better attacks on the charge counts for a lot.

yeah this is huge!

I've seen two all cavalry TK army lists that revolve around units of H.Cavalry and I have to say I'm really impressed at their mobility due to their magic phase.

With movement 8" + 16" charge in the same turn is pretty huge, add to that str4 attack makes them a solid unit choice imho.

In the context of a really fast magic heavy armylist I think they make for a really nice unit choice. If your going for a static list then normal skellies are better points wise.

jahorin
23-04-2007, 13:11
Sounds like a decent plan. I just want to point out that with 7th edition you can hide mounted characters in blocks of infantry, making Liche Priests on horses much better then their foot variants.

Yes I know that he can hide in the unit... but it doesn't look good :p

I would prefer putting a mighty mounted hero in a foot unit rather than a puny mage on a steed. I just a question of look!

Von Wibble
23-04-2007, 20:40
Actually I rate skeleton horsemen. But not as combat units so much as useful support.

A key use of light horsemen is to fill 2 roles - the first being to try to get to a war machine (vs an army with more than you have scorps) - and the second more important one being that they can move 8" and get into position to sacrifice themselves to a nasty enemy unit in order for said unit to change direction - either delaying it for a turn or 2 or putting it in a position to be hit hard.

The light horsemen provide this for 70 pts and even get a kill or 2 from missile fire. Just don't put a liche priest with them.

I have tried heavy horse in large units but the problem is that for the unit to be capable of winning in a front on charge chances are 3 chariots plus a character would also win through for far less points. If otoh you go for a side charge a large block is unwieldy and often overkill, and again 3 chariots tend to do better.

I would therefore also field heavy horse in small units - say 6 with banner. As long as they aren't used suicidally the banner shouldn't be captured but that unit can comfortably tip the balance in your favour as a support unit.

Liche priests can work on horse simply because it is often important to have the extra speed in order to have more potential range on incantations. In this I assume the cloak of dunes is taken elsewhere obviously.

Esco Thomson
24-04-2007, 17:40
Have to agree with Von Wibble here. They are pretty decent at setting your foe up to be at an ill spot for getting charged, and can do a decent job at secondary war machine hunting. Occasionally they will fell something with a bow shot which is just a nice little bonus.

Heavy cavalry I agree don't really work in that huge unwieldy block, best smaller and with a banner for added cr/flanking.

Also kudos to the KOL ref in your sig man!

Rabbit_on_Rampage
26-04-2007, 15:19
Hi there I'm new to TK (I have yet to play my first game but have some units painted up) and I'm wondering what is the best way to avoid my hiereophant from getting shot down / killed in combat? I'm going to be reworking my list to include cloak of the dunes on him (I forgot when creating it) and I will be subing out my 10 block of skel war's for a 6 block of light cav in order to distract oponents and screw up charges. My main army is built around block infantry and supporting fire from war machines so my liche priests survival is a must. Comments are apriciated

Cragspyder
26-04-2007, 15:52
The best way to protect your Hierophant is to give him the Cloak of the Dunes and the Collar of Shapesh, and stick him in a unit of archers. That way he gets a ward save, look out sir, and can fly around to escape charges or get into range for incantations.

Maelx
26-04-2007, 16:37
Whoa you think so? Although it is definitely the best way to keep him safe, I would recommend that you always keep him out of a unit of archers.

Keep him in a big unit that will stay out of combat most of the game. Try to screen this unit if possible with other units to keep it from being shot at.

When the enemy gets close, fly him away! Remember, flying behind the enemy is sometimes a good choice as you'll be able to escape their LOS.

Cragspyder
26-04-2007, 16:52
I don't see how archers are any less protection then a big unit of skeletons, as you don't intend to leave the Liche in a potential situation anyways. And at least with archers he can use Righteous Smiting and he might also be near Screaming Skull Catapults.

Esco Thomson
26-04-2007, 17:09
I don't see how archers are any less protection then a big unit of skeletons, as you don't intend to leave the Liche in a potential situation anyways. And at least with archers he can use Righteous Smiting and he might also be near Screaming Skull Catapults.

Well other than the obvious point of unit sizes, the only thing warrior blocks have is a potential better armor save, making them less vulnerable to shooting. Though if you have a sizable block of archers, for all intents and purposes it works just the same. I have done it numerous times, and haven't lost a priest due to it yet.

I do agree that being right there to smite them does come in handy.

barontuman
26-04-2007, 17:54
A couple of comments,

Smiting archers is frequently a bad idea. Vengence is almot always better because it's S4 and causes automatic hits instead of needing a 5+.

Also light horsemen are horrible. I converted a cool unit of centaur horsemen (like I'd done 10+ years ago for the generic "Undead" army, and every time I've fielded them I've been sorry. With a 6+ save, they are extra combat resolution for the enemy even in the flank. They still can't march so their fast cav status is pretty well wasted, and their shooting is pathetic.

Don't bother with TK light cav.

Maelx
26-04-2007, 19:21
It depends how you use your archers.

I prefer smaller units of archers to bait charges and such. Hence my recultance to put a liche in one of them.


A couple of comments,

Smiting archers is frequently a bad idea. Vengence is almot always better because it's S4 and causes automatic hits instead of needing a 5+.


And then you have LOS onto the enemy. Bad idea.

Better to screen a LP behind some units, use his smiting (as it doesnt need LOS or anything) to get the archers to shoot while keeping him safe from retribution.

Esco Thomson
26-04-2007, 19:44
Better to screen a LP behind some units, use his smiting (as it doesnt need LOS or anything) to get the archers to shoot while keeping him safe from retribution.

Yeah I find that to generally be the case as well. I never use vengeance unless it is the only thing feasible to do, but in all honesty I can count the number of times I have casted it on one hand. If it had a longer range, or did a bit more I might, but as is, I am never hard pressed for some more "useful" incantations.

jahorin
26-04-2007, 20:32
Vengence... what's this incantation? just kidding. It could be useful if you are stuck with some skirmisher near the infantry block that you are hiding your priest in. But most of the time it's much better to move or attack with the incantation... if it had a range of 24" like most magic missile, than it could be worthwhile of casting from time to time.

Maelx
26-04-2007, 21:17
wait, tomb kings have skirmishers? (that aren't swarms or carrion)

jahorin
27-04-2007, 00:04
No they don't have skirmisher, I meant that if there's an enemy skirmishing unit near a block of infantry with a priest inside said unit. Than you might consider casting Vengence... sorry if I was unclear...

me + english = not always good sentences.

Rabbit_on_Rampage
27-04-2007, 04:05
I honestly think people are underestimating the potential of light horsemen. Yes, their save blows, but they are MEANT to die. Throw away units win games. By investing 90 points into a small unit of horsemen I can position them in a way to 1) screen my LP, 2) absorb a charge 3) attack machine crew 4) absorb missile fire

Maelx
27-04-2007, 15:50
Lots of others units can do that! Use a unit of archers, for instance.

Twice the wounds (so it can actually stand up to shooting...) and twice the shots for less points.

jahorin
27-04-2007, 16:15
1) screen my LP
I'd rather use a unit that can actually survive to screen my LP. Like hiding in a big block of skeleton foot slugger, or archers, since you can have twice as much archers as horseman.


2) absorb a charge
Ok well I think that could be their best use, bait frenzy, and lead them elsewhere so you can charge them with a better positioned unit.


3) attack machine crew
I'd rather invest 90 points for 2 swarms with ICFB or better a scorpion


4) absorb missile fire
With T3 and save of 6+ they won't be able to absorb much missile fire, you will be spending an incantation trying to heal them if they survive a volley of fire. No good.

Personally, I would only use them to bait chosen knights of khorne of something similar. Apart from that I don't find them really useful.

Cragspyder
27-04-2007, 18:11
Actually, the smallest Light Horsemen unit possible is 5 models, coming in at 70 points, making it the cheapest TK unit outside of 1 swarm. Even 10 archers cost 80 points.

I use a unit of 5 Light Cavalry for redirecting charges and harassing flanks. They even killed a wizard once!

As for the couple of you that use Skeleton Archers in the charge redirecting role, don't you have problems getting them into position with a move of 4 and being 10 models wide? At least with Light Horsemen they have a move of 8 and are fast Cavalry, making them much easier to put in the way of your enemy.

Maelx
27-04-2007, 20:59
so for 10 points you get twice the wounds and a little more than half the movement.

You do see where i'm going with this right?

Cragspyder
28-04-2007, 03:40
so for 10 points you get twice the wounds and a little more than half the movement.

You do see where i'm going with this right?

How is 4 movement 'a little more then half' of 8 movement? Since Light Horsemen can charge 16'' instead of 8'', and have free reforms, I'd say Skeleton Archers are 'a lot less then half' of the effective movement of Light Cavalry.

If you're using the Archers for shots, they are deployed 10 wide, which makes them even less manueverable, or you have them 5 wide on a hill, which means they aren't being used for theoretical 'charge absorbing' anyways.

Double the wounds, you say? Wonderful. They are still all dead if charged by ANYTHING, just like Light Cavalry. Luckily, if we are charge absorbing or redirecting, we don't give a crap if they die or not!

Except..... a unit of 10 Skeleton Archers, whose function is to die, costs 10 points more for the same unit strength and (effectively) the same survivablilty, and has a lot less chance of actually being in the position you want them to be in the first place. So for 10 points you actually get just 5 more 5+ to hit S 3 bowshots, and you lose a ton of utility and maneuverability.

I use the 10 Archers too in my army. Just don't try to tell me that they are just as good in the role of charge redirection as 5 Light Cavalry.

Angelwing
28-04-2007, 03:49
Hmm. time for a new question. Has anyone had much success with the bone giant? I find that it gets trashed before it does anything, or gets overlooked in favour of catapults and the casket.
my most spectacular foul up was when i charged a high elf bolt thrower and bounced off, eventually falling to the counter chargeing spearmen in exchange for killing one elf!

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 04:09
Hmm. time for a new question. Has anyone had much success with the bone giant? I find that it gets trashed before it does anything, or gets overlooked in favour of catapults and the casket.
my most spectacular foul up was when i charged a high elf bolt thrower and bounced off, eventually falling to the counter chargeing spearmen in exchange for killing one elf!

i always take a bone giant. he has to be used well though, just like the living kind. he does have a good armor save (3+), so he doesnt go down to skinks like the DoW giant. i usually send him after men at arms, goblins, zombies, skeletons and anything that is weak. he will reap a high toll of blood from ws2 opponents.

jahorin
28-04-2007, 10:59
Hmm. time for a new question. Has anyone had much success with the bone giant?

The time that I've fielded him with the best result was charging a block of 20 spearelves, and I manage to kill 6 on the charge :evilgrin:. I was lucky enough to be able to make the big guy charge on second turn.

Against dwarves, it was a completely different story. Before I got the chance to be near them, the giant was destroyed by cannon fire, and a S7 bolt thrower.

Overall, for me, sure he's a fire magnet but he has an armor save so against normal bow fire he can prevent a couple of wounds, unlike my orcs giant. And you can heal him back when needed. I think he has a place in an army. I'm currently looking to built a construct heavy army, I'll be sure ton include one... or maybe 2 giants :eek:

Von Wibble
28-04-2007, 11:36
I like the Bone Giant against armies with cavalry, as he tends to not die when charged- alternatively as a support unit he can crush a lot of knights. Cavalry tend to not have many models hit by skull chukkas either, and Brets (as an example) can easily get MR1 into their army to hurt the CoS.

But against armies that stand back with a lot of infantry I prefer a skull chukka and an extra unit of chariots (or more skellies)- the catapult is lethal against such units whilst the bone giant lacks the speed and manouvrebility to be able to achieve much before being neutered in some way.

Rabbit_on_Rampage
30-04-2007, 14:49
Bone Giants are undisputably one of the best support units at their disposal. with healing of wounds and a heavy hit on the charge, not much can stand up them when flanked.

A new question: I have a tooled up unit of Tomb Guard with a TK and Icon Bearer in my army. Keeping Survivability of this unit in check, how should I manage my 2 Liche priests when advancing on the enemy. I have 2 SSC's in my army as well so I'm questioning wether to leave one priest back to provide the extra shot in the magic phase.

Cragspyder
30-04-2007, 15:02
A unit of TG with a TK and Icon Bearer is a lot of eggs in a very slow, unmaneuverable basket. Your opponent would do well to ignore or divert it and take out the other 1200 points.

Regardless, that wasn't the question you asked...

I don't really understand the sentence "Keeping Survivability of this unit in check". Just going by the words you used it sounds like you want to make sure your TG unit dies! I'm sure that's not what you meant, but I don't really follow the sentence.

Anyways, with 2 characters in the TG unit I would advise you to have your Liche Priests support the rest of your army (ie. keep neither of them near the TG unit). Your TK can help the mobility of the unit with his incantations already. Summoning is a problem, of course, but that TG unit is already a huge point sink, why not find another 25 points for the BOTUL?

You should definetely keep a Liche Priest back with the SSCs. It allows you to make pinpoint accurate guesses in the shooting phase, (though Smiting on Catapults will definetely draw dispel dice). The other Liche Priest should support a faster, hard-hitting unit. Do you have Chariots or Ushabti in your army, or even Heavy Horsemen? Perhaps a group of 5 Light or Heavy Horsemen to protect a mounted Liche as he casts his spells on your more important units is a good bet.

With TG and two SSCs, you sound like a defensive army. Maybe you could just keep the 2nd Liche Priest with a group of archers that is supporting another tough unit?

jahorin
30-04-2007, 16:26
It's too much in the same unit. Is the unit carrying a banner? What about the icon bearer?

A unit of 20 tomb guard with a champion, standard, and a tomb prince can accomplish a lot on themselves. Or you could put only the icon bearer with the vembrace of the sun and the armour of the age. That way the icon bearer can hold up a bit in challenges. Put the summoning banner in that unit as well.

Rabbit_on_Rampage
30-04-2007, 16:40
Firstly the last thing i want is for my TG unit to die :D .
Next, I need a priest within casting range so that I can res them back up. They are nearly unbeatable in CC with a liche priest supporting them from close by. I've given my hieroophant a Cloak of the Dunes and I think I will bounce him between some other skeleton blocks I have in my army. I have taken a differet aproach from most TK armies and exclusively use block units of skeletal warriors supported by TG. I have 3 Ushabti for flanking, 1 TS and 2bases of TS for war machines / ranged units. I never have considered TK a slow army. When it counts (aka charges and CC) they are a formidable force which can close the distance for a charge advantage better than any other army. I am not using archers in my list (mabe in 3000 pts not 2000) because I don't like infantry shooting heavy armies. The TG with TK and IB total about 600 pts not the 800 you listed so the point sinc is there, but they are tough and not many humanoid sized units can take them on and win.

Esco Thomson
30-04-2007, 16:50
Firstly the last thing i want is for my TG unit to die :D .
Next, I need a priest within casting range so that I can res them back up. They are nearly unbeatable in CC with a liche priest supporting them from close by. I've given my hieroophant a Cloak of the Dunes and I think I will bounce him between some other skeleton blocks I have in my army. I have taken a differet aproach from most TK armies and exclusively use block units of skeletal warriors supported by TG. I have 3 Ushabti for flanking, 1 TS and 2bases of TS for war machines / ranged units. I never have considered TK a slow army. When it counts (aka charges and CC) they are a formidable force which can close the distance for a charge advantage better than any other army. I am not using archers in my list (mabe in 3000 pts not 2000) because I don't like infantry shooting heavy armies. The TG with TK and IB total about 600 pts not the 800 you listed so the point sinc is there, but they are tough and not many humanoid sized units can take them on and win.

That is still too big of a point sink IMHO. Especially for a "slower" moving block. Your best bet is going to be having one character in the unit tops. Give them the BotUL, and keep a priest handy in case of extra healing if needed. They are tough and all, but if you paint the worlds largest target on them, expect your opponent to throw everything at it.

Spider
30-04-2007, 18:16
I usually run a unit of 20 TG with a sensibly equipped prince.

I find it my most successfull unit, to be honest i don't think i have ever lost a round of combat with it...but that is as much to do jammy dice rolls as anything else.

In theory they are vulnerable, but in theory what even half clever oponent is going to be shooting at that distant unit when 1 or 2 units of chariots, a scorpion and a Bone Giant is hurtling to his lines?

At least that is my experiance of them.

The flip side to my luck with TG is that i have never had a scorpion last long enough to get into CC and my bone giants always kill about two enemy then get destroyed by all manner of bad luck.:(

Frankly
01-05-2007, 08:38
A new question: I have a tooled up unit of Tomb Guard with a TK and Icon Bearer in my army. Keeping Survivability of this unit in check, how should I manage my 2 Liche priests when advancing on the enemy. I have 2 SSC's in my army as well so I'm questioning wether to leave one priest back to provide the extra shot in the magic phase.

TK + TG = pricey but excellent. It really is a brutal option and one that the rest of the armylist has to revolve around to use this unit to its fullest.


TK
Priest
Priest
Priest

Is a better option its actually gives you alot more surviveability and flexibility than a S.Bearer can. More of a magic phase more incarnations.


The most important thing about creating your list, is not the TG and TK unit its selves, its how are you going to get it into the right combat at full for force which is the most important thing. You need a delivery system that will counter an threats to the units and keep it in line and on track.

Chariots, flyers and TS are all good options and meatshield your TG unit, take out WMs, ranged units etc, etc.

Your magic phase should surround this unit, it should march the unit across the board and get him into combat quick smart. It should help the unit with healing and combat while targeting enemy flankers with magic missiles etc, etc. Almost all your magic phase should be targeting this unit when it hits your enemies battleline.

Although a TK and TG unit is a points sink its a tough unit to come across if its in a list that really brings out all its strengths, its a game winning unit imho.

DeathlessDraich
01-05-2007, 11:02
Yes, agreed.
TK and TG combination is the best possible in a Tomb King army. This combination will hold against some of the toughest units in Fantasy, Khorne Chosen Knights, PlagueRiders, Wardancers, Lord on a Dragon etc and on a one to one basis, they will be victorious provided they have the magical support.

Cragspyder
01-05-2007, 17:07
You all seem to enjoy the big unit of TG and TK.

I don't plan on using it, but I was wondering...

Wouldn't it be really worth it to put the Icon of Rakaph on the unit?

Maelx
01-05-2007, 17:09
Yeah it's worth it.

It's also a unit that costs like 700 points by itself, AND uses a special choice.

Boo-urns to that.

Rvhalt
01-05-2007, 19:39
Tomb Scorpion, what a marvel. A couple a days ago a fought a 2000 Pts battle vs Empire and my darling little insect sliced his general the second turn and held up his raging griffon for two turns before killing it. Needless to say, my regular oponents truly worries about the scorpion.
But I'm still having problem with my hierophant. What would people say about putting The Collar of Shapesh on him and Enkhil's Kanopi and putting him in a unit of Light Cavalry? Basically he gets a 4+ ward save against those suckers that can pinpoint him, a 360 degree los and he moves 8" almost like he was on his own and he is protected against general shooting and warmachines.

Maelx
01-05-2007, 21:21
and every time you choose TG you take up a slot that could just as easily be filled (and more cheaply) with skeletons.

Frankly
02-05-2007, 09:56
You all seem to enjoy the big unit of TG and TK.

I don't plan on using it, but I was wondering...

Wouldn't it be really worth it to put the Icon of Rakaph on the unit?


Banner of the undying legion is really good.

War banner is really good as well, even better now that when you over run you can fight on.

Rakaph ... hmmm ... I don't know, it might be interesting with over runs.



A prince + Crook & Flail of Radiance is another good option in a TG unit, It gives you room to take a heavy magic phase and still have a killer unit.

It's an extremely good counter attack unit for a TK ranged attack armylist. Its one of the units thats really hard to get rid of for the opponant.

Frankly
02-05-2007, 10:07
and every time you choose TG you take up a slot that could just as easily be filled (and more cheaply) with skeletons.

TG are 3pts more than skellies, for this you get +1T, +1str and K.Blow. And ranks and outnumbering really matter with this unit so those ranked up +3pts in this blocked unit actually matter.

TG outplay skellies, but thats not really the point, when your choosing to play TG + TK then your choosing more than just TG over skellies, your actually choosing the tactical theme of your armylist, which is all important and giving up a special slot to do this is a no brainer.

StormCrow
02-05-2007, 11:26
I usually have a prince in my tomb guard unit with scorpion armour (i miss the days when i could give him the enchanted shield as well, sigh). I feel uneasy putting a king in the unit as mentioned before it will take the unit to a hefty 700 points usually. i like to have my king with a chariot unit with the icon of the sacred eye. 2's to hit and wound is awesome.

jahorin
02-05-2007, 13:43
I'd rather have my King in a chariot as well, armed with the flail of skulls and chariot of fire. And as StormCrow mentioned the Icon of sacred eye in the unit of chariot! It's a nice punching unit.

If I put my king on foot, he will be armed with the collar and destroyer of eternity in a unit of 25 skeletons with either the djedra banner of summoning or warbanner.

And getting back to tomb guard, a prince is more than enough for them.

Rabbit_on_Rampage
02-05-2007, 14:32
My special choices are a TS, Ushabti and TG. Obviously the heaviest hitters in my army CC wise.This armmy I play is a themed army and it will be no doubt much harder to win a game with my list than a stardard high skele count force.

One of the only reasons I have TG is to pop my Tomb King in there as well, so he can use the DoE. This weapon is by far the sickest item I have ever laid my eyes apon since I started 4 years ago. If I get the charge off (which I should) I will get basically 3 auto kills (assuming the TK is in base2base with 3 models) and 6 more attack which are hitting on 4's and can auto kill on 6's and generally wound on 3's. I've always been known as a player who throws all of his eggs in one basket (my 36 stormvermin unit with greyseer and BSB anyone?) and I love the concept of building armies around one unit.

In the TG I have my battle standard with Icon of Rakaph and the unit itself has the BotUL. I was considering swapping out my IB for another priest, but the lack of mobility lost from the Icon seemed like to much of a rish, especially with this big of a unit at stake. Getting the charge with this unit is key. (Jar+Magic Move anyone?)

Edit: My TK is equipped with DoE and Collar of Shapesh
As for meat shields for this unit I will probably have 3 Chariots and 2 units of 20 skeles marching foreward with them. The ushabti will naturallly be targetting flanks and enemy wizards / characters.

Kordos
02-05-2007, 14:33
It's simply a matter of style and how you want to run your army, some people like Tomb Guard, and some don't - personally i run magic heavy so i use tomb scorpions and two big units of skellies using magic to keep the skellies going

Esco Thomson
02-05-2007, 16:31
It's simply a matter of style and how you want to run your army, some people like Tomb Guard, and some don't - personally i run magic heavy so i use tomb scorpions and two big units of skellies using magic to keep the skellies going

Yeah it is a matter of taste, but I think that most veteran players will tell you to generally steer away from putting all of your eggs in one basket. IE, a huge point sink. On the flip side of that though, with great risks, come great rewards...

I just think that in a very reliable, and relentless list such as Tomb Kings, the more balanced of a list you have, the better you will fare. I enjoy taking tomb guard, but I don't throw any characters into it, save a priest to help them move along/heal who makes his departure when combat draws near.

They do indeed make a nice solid force that can just advance at pretty much whatever they want.

druchii
02-05-2007, 20:06
My special choices are a TS, Ushabti and TG. Obviously the heaviest hitters in my army CC wise.This armmy I play is a themed army and it will be no doubt much harder to win a game with my list than a stardard high skele count force.

One of the only reasons I have TG is to pop my Tomb King in there as well, so he can use the DoE. This weapon is by far the sickest item I have ever laid my eyes apon since I started 4 years ago. If I get the charge off (which I should) I will get basically 3 auto kills (assuming the TK is in base2base with 3 models) and 6 more attack which are hitting on 4's and can auto kill on 6's and generally wound on 3's. I've always been known as a player who throws all of his eggs in one basket (my 36 stormvermin unit with greyseer and BSB anyone?) and I love the concept of building armies around one unit.

In the TG I have my battle standard with Icon of Rakaph and the unit itself has the BotUL. I was considering swapping out my IB for another priest, but the lack of mobility lost from the Icon seemed like to much of a rish, especially with this big of a unit at stake. Getting the charge with this unit is key. (Jar+Magic Move anyone?)

Edit: My TK is equipped with DoE and Collar of Shapesh
As for meat shields for this unit I will probably have 3 Chariots and 2 units of 20 skeles marching foreward with them. The ushabti will naturallly be targetting flanks and enemy wizards / characters.

See,

I'm terrified of having such a huge unit. Especially with such a vulnerable BSB inside. I know if I were fighting that unit(and I promise I would get the charge off, as should most cavalry, with 14-18" charges) I'd just direct as many attacks at the BSB as possible, he's the weakest model in the entire unit!

I know there's not much one can do about this, really, but it serves to illustrate a point. Typically when I've got something out of the ordinary(like Tomb Guard) people over-focus on them. Sure, while this forces them to not shoot at other parts of the army, I tend to run army that deprives the opponent of valuable targets. Sure, shoot my skeletons, there's 25 of them, and I'll raise more!(and then I sucker punch them with tomb scorpions, swarms and carrion).

While I'm pleased that people are having success with one of my favorite units in the army(one which I'm absolutely terrible with) do people find that they're playing competitive games with them, against competitive armies?

And please know when I say competitive, I don't mean cheesey, but armies that have trimmed of their fat, armies run well, and armies that are familiar to their users.

d

Rabbit_on_Rampage
03-05-2007, 05:17
Well the only cheezy thing I see in a TK army is using 2 or more Tomb scopions which I have not done. The only unit as you mentioned that should ever get the charge vs this TK unit is something with 14+ charge range. Generally, these units are small in size and pack a 1 hit wonder punch that, if survived will be useless in later rounds. Calvalry and chariots that smack into this unit will not win by any means. I will be resurecting them back faster then you can say Dead BSB. Sure if my BSB dies, thats a major blow, but its not what governs the units success.
Assuming a Calvalry charge hits (lets just generalise for stats):
6 wide = 7 attacks on the charge+horses later
7 attacks, on average 4 will hit ( rounding up)
Str of 5 on the charge: therefore ~2 will wound.
6+ armor save I will assume 2 TG die.
6 attack from horses, 3 hit, 1 wounds, 50/50 I will fail, i will fail for the sake of example.

***This is assuming this calvalry unit does not have a character in it and is 6 total models. ALSO it involves my TK not challenging like normal.***

So i've lost 3 TG. ok so attacks back:

Destroyer of eternities special atack: 2 wounds dealt, on four dice, one on average will be a 6. 1 dead, and 2 5+ armor saves with 1 on average failing.
So far 2 knights dead.

Then i get 4 attack with my champ and BSB (assuming no attacks are alocated off the charge).

2 hit, 1 wounds
Assume armor save is passed.

Ok so combat res:
I have 2 ranks, Banner, BSB, 2 kills, outnumber total: 7
Cav: 3 kills, banner tota: 4

I mean I probably screwed something up doing those calculations, and not all cav units are that good / bad but i considered a stat line as Str: 5, WS: 4 Sv: 1+ T:4 . Granted if my BSB was targeted instead, I would have still won combat if you recalculate the res.

Overall it all comes down to the almighty dice gods :p

druchii
03-05-2007, 05:33
Well the only cheezy thing I see in a TK army is using 2 or more Tomb scopions which I have not done. The only unit as you mentioned that should ever get the charge vs this TK unit is something with 14+ charge range. Generally, these units are small in size and pack a 1 hit wonder punch that, if survived will be useless in later rounds. Calvalry and chariots that smack into this unit will not win by any means. I will be resurecting them back faster then you can say Dead BSB. Sure if my BSB dies, thats a major blow, but its not what governs the units success.
Assuming a Calvalry charge hits (lets just generalise for stats):
6 wide = 7 attacks on the charge+horses later
7 attacks, on average 4 will hit ( rounding up)
Str of 5 on the charge: therefore ~2 will wound.
6+ armor save I will assume 2 TG die.
6 attack from horses, 3 hit, 1 wounds, 50/50 I will fail, i will fail for the sake of example.

***This is assuming this calvalry unit does not have a character in it and is 6 total models. ALSO it involves my TK not challenging like normal.***

So i've lost 3 TG. ok so attacks back:

Destroyer of eternities special atack: 2 wounds dealt, on four dice, one on average will be a 6. 1 dead, and 2 5+ armor saves with 1 on average failing.
So far 2 knights dead.

Then i get 4 attack with my champ and BSB (assuming no attacks are alocated off the charge).

2 hit, 1 wounds
Assume armor save is passed.

Ok so combat res:
I have 2 ranks, Banner, BSB, 2 kills, outnumber total: 7
Cav: 3 kills, banner tota: 4

I mean I probably screwed something up doing those calculations, and not all cav units are that good / bad but i considered a stat line as Str: 5, WS: 4 Sv: 1+ T:4 . Granted if my BSB was targeted instead, I would have still won combat if you recalculate the res.

Overall it all comes down to the almighty dice gods :p

Sad thing is, that unit is like 200pts, compared to, exactly HOW much does the Tk unit run?

And that's my point, while the unit is absolutely stellar, personally, I'd like to have more units on the table with which to lock my opponent down.

Like I said, I'm super happy to see someone finding TG effective!
d

Mad Makz
03-05-2007, 05:46
TG Are the most effective unit in the TK army in my opinion, for one reason and one reason alone. They can take the Icon of Rakaph.

The Icon is an absolute must on a big unit of Tomb Guard. I don't put any characters in my Tomb Guard at all, a unit of 25 with the Icon of Rakaph can move up the center of the board and totally dominate the opposition, because they can't ignore it because if a unit fighting it breaks it can quickly turn and flank or rare charge the enemy and if they try to totally alienate it by flanking it they better destroy it on the charge (pretty tough with 25 toughness 4 models with ok saves) otherwise their flanking units are going to be hit by counter charging chariots in the flank or in the rare.

Admittedly, my army is a bit unusual, in that it takes no Skeletons whatsoever, and is designed around using the Tomb Guard as the Anvil to the chariots, Tomb Kings, Scorpions (and in 2,250 points) Ushabti's hammer.

Backed up with Screaming Skull Catapults forcing the enemy to advance into my lines and my army plays pretty competitive.

Some people do however prefer grinding their opponent down - it's a very effective tactic, but TK's manouverability is one of their strengths and TG with the Icon of Rakaph combined with Chariots all backed up by incantantions make for some of the most manouverable heavy hitters in the game.

Frankly
03-05-2007, 08:53
Yeah it is a matter of taste, but I think that most veteran players will tell you to generally steer away from putting all of your eggs in one basket. IE, a huge point sink. On the flip side of that though, with great risks, come great rewards...

I just think that in a very reliable, and relentless list such as Tomb Kings, the more balanced of a list you have, the better you will fare. I enjoy taking tomb guard, but I don't throw any characters into it, save a priest to help them move along/heal who makes his departure when combat draws near.

They do indeed make a nice solid force that can just advance at pretty much whatever they want.

99% of the time I'd totally agree with you, and I totally understand where your coming from. But, the TG and TK combo is that 1% rule breaker.

Again ... BUT ... the TG unit has to be played in a list thats focuses on this unit, its 700pts, its got to win games.

The unit can heal it's self, it can the heal its captain and it can have 2 movement phases. That means its durable like no other elite choice and its mobility is outstanding for an infantry unit. In general terms, its just such a hard unit to destroy or get a proper charge off against.

Where this unit fails is outside of combat, so your list is focused on getting it into combat ... even if the unit has to take a charge it's usually fine. Most every other units in the your list are supporting units for the TG, they'll do all the grunt and delivery work to get your TG across the field, they're there to negate options for your opponent, magic will do the rest.

@Druchii, this is one unit that I'm pretty happy to let most other units charge(just because it can resummon its self), the problem is the charger has to deal with alot of support units running defense for a TG unit, I mean look at the charge range of chariot, 8 + 16 in the magic phase it makes for a good countering unit to run on the flank of the TG, TK flyers have an even longer range to keep enemy flankers away. Even if the supporting units do die, usually they'll do the job of getting in the way long enough for the TG unit to do what needs to be done and if your supporting well then this usually isn't a problem.

Imo it is pretty hard to get a charge off on the TG unit in the context of the list, but you never know ... I'm speaking in pretty general terms and also I'm a huge fan of C&F.o.Radiance+G.Ankhira(although the death mask of kharnut is nice).

Maelx
03-05-2007, 15:43
I mean I probably screwed something up doing those calculations, and not all cav units are that good / bad but i considered a stat line as Str: 5, WS: 4 Sv: 1+ T:4 . Granted if my BSB was targeted instead, I would have still won combat if you recalculate the res.

Overall it all comes down to the almighty dice gods :p

I don't want to sound like a jerk rabbit, but listen up for a second.

You have a 700+ point unit there right? You BETTER be winning combat res against a unit of 6 horses, otherwise i'd be very VERY disheartened. If you were taking 150 points of horses and beating your 700+ point unit though.. then i'd be impressed :P

Frankly
04-05-2007, 11:27
Nah, this should happen if he charges your TG. You challenge with champion, you hit with C&F.o.Radiance(strike first), hit on 2+ (Icon of the sacred eye) and take what little damage that comes back.

You may loose a model or two, but you'll most likely draw even in wounds and your static CR will auto break him with fear ..... over run, then its your turn.

If you know that your going to win combat through him charging you, then its like your having an extra turn, taking the charge well is more important than charging. If you leave the option for a charge like that open and the opponent takes it, then effectively he's given your TG 3 turns to perform in.

It's one of the reasons why its worth 700pts to field this unit.

Off course try this against chosen khorne and a character, B.Knights with B.o.Borrows and a Count, a gun line + elite cavalry, etc, etc.

The problem is combined charges, cavalry combined with chariots, rank and file + character + chariot etc, etc.

Your Mum Rang
04-05-2007, 12:43
Mind posting your list, Frankly? I'm interested.

Rabbit_on_Rampage
04-05-2007, 14:51
You might want to make it clear as to whome you're refering to , but if it's me then take a look at the Army lists section, ive post my 2000 tk list there.

I was also thinking about a heavy chariot army that i think will be extremely successful (but very small).

X7 chariots with tomb king on chariot with DoE (listen first) and collar. Banner of the undying legion is also in this unit
X4 chariots
X4 chariots
X4 chariots
X15 Light horsemen
X3 liche priests ^ go in that unit all mounted

Because the DoE works off of people in base contact, A chariot base can touch up to 5 small infantry model making it ann amazing weapon which will surpase giving the TK Chariot of Fire.

It's a fun list I plan on doing after finishing my current one

Chiron
04-05-2007, 15:14
Except DoE is a foot only weapon so cant be used by a TK on chariot

that unit of horsemen is also horribly tempting to target, concentrated fire will rip it apart, leaving all 3 priest exposed and ready to die, far to many eggs in one basket

Rabbit_on_Rampage
04-05-2007, 15:23
Damn I knew I missed something when choosing DoE in that list, thanks for pointing it out. Ya I know they would be targeted, but with three priests, I figure I can res enough back in order to survive, it was merely a fun idea, I dont plan on doing it for a while :)

Chiron
04-05-2007, 15:29
Ah but if you concentrate on ressing you wont be able to yell "SURPRISE!!" as effectively and have 2 units of chariots hit the enemy from two directions at once :)

Rabbit_on_Rampage
04-05-2007, 15:35
True True :D what other magical weapons could i give my TK in the chariot, im not a huge fan of chariot of flame and would like some different upgrade ideas.

Esco Thomson
04-05-2007, 16:56
True True :D what other magical weapons could i give my TK in the chariot, im not a huge fan of chariot of flame and would like some different upgrade ideas.

I would still give him the chariot of fire, but if you are looking for a magic weapon, use the old standby of the Flail of Skulls. You will still hit strength 7 on the first round, and it just massacres characters, and multiple wound monsters, something we have a bit of trouble with as is.

Von Wibble
04-05-2007, 19:08
Or just a vanilla flail. Vs T3 Sword of Striking is good for 2s 2s.

7 chariots in a unit + TK- why not 4 and 3 with TK. There is nothing to stop you throwing in 2 units if you need to and smaller units have far more flexibility on the table.

15 Horse and 3 priests could easily be wiped out in a shooting + magic phase - Helblaster, Dwarf army, Hail of Doom arrow, High Elf/ Slann/Tzeentch army, Khalidah TK etc are all capable of this. I think mounting a priest is a questionable call, and putting a priest with cavalry a complete no-no.

On Tomb Guard - I completely agree with the above that whether or not to use them depends on playing style. I tend to use them as I play defensive and they are very useful at supporting my skellies, but they can also support chariot based offensive forces if necessary. A unit with banner and Tomb King is pricy but any general leading an elite unit will cost - and the unit won't easily die, can have very good manouvrability and has killing power. Unlike other "power units" it won't suffer from a double 6 break check either.

Chiron
04-05-2007, 20:02
with the new rules mounting a priest is fine, they can still go into a unit for protection and get a bit of extra range to manouver

jahorin
06-05-2007, 02:27
with the new rules mounting a priest is fine, they can still go into a unit for protection and get a bit of extra range to manouver

But even if it doesn't look good, a mounted priest in a unit a regular skeleton is ok, when the unit is about to see action, the priest can run away with is horse!

Frankly
06-05-2007, 08:57
Mind posting your list, Frankly? I'm interested.

Sorry I missed this ... NP, will do tomorrow when I get home.

I ran something like this.

TK, C&F.o.Radiance, Golden Ankhra

Priest, C.o.Dunes, scroll
Priest, H.Jar
Priest, staff of ravening

20 skellies
20 skellies

3 chariots
3 chariots

3 carrion
3 carrion

1 T.Scorpion

20 TG w. Icon.o.t.Scared eye.

I never got to run the list as often as I'd like too, but them's the breaks. Still, after getting a handle on the TK rules and the TG unit, I found TG a strong shock unit and could effectively win games as long as you gave them the support they needed.

In hind sight I'd run with a Prince and a High priest. I'd go for 5 carrion for auto killing from auto breaks and H.cavalry over skellies.

It'd be a faster and more threatening list. H.Cavalry would be less of a headache in supporting the TG unit because of their speed to cover against flankers, meaning less need to magic them into position or combat.

A H.Priest would give you a stronger maigc phase, more support for the TG unit, while 4 attacks first striking and hitting on 2+ would be enough character support for the TG unit.

5 carrion are there for dropping behind auto breaking units of auto kills, haven't played the list in the new edition, but it sounds pretty strong.

Frankly
07-05-2007, 08:33
sorry

Edited

Cragspyder
07-05-2007, 21:41
Nah, this should happen if he charges your TG. You challenge with champion, you hit with C&F.o.Radiance(strike first), hit on 2+ (Icon of the sacred eye) and take what little damage that comes back.

You may loose a model or two, but you'll most likely draw even in wounds and your static CR will auto break him with fear ..... over run, then its your turn.



I just wanted to point out that you can't overrun if he charged you.

EDIT: Geez, I was just pointing out that he couldn't overrun. The wording might have confused newer players who (surprise!) might be reading this thread.

But if you want to get all snappy about it, be my guest.

Chiron
07-05-2007, 23:51
I just wanted to point out that you can't overrun if he charged you.

I think he used the wrong word, what do you do if the enemy runs away from combat due to autobreak...?

yep, pursue (unless you spot an obvious ambush up ahead or something)

case closed and thread continues...

Frankly
08-05-2007, 08:38
Thanks Chiron.

backslide
19-06-2007, 15:11
cheers guys enjoyed reading this thread and has made me consider more seriously TK as my next army :)

Frankly
21-06-2007, 13:29
From Hamilton eh?

I'm from ChCh

DeathlessDraich
21-06-2007, 16:47
ChCh? Is that Cheech and Chong? :D

Draeven
22-06-2007, 05:21
I ran a 2250 tk list the other day that didnt' do too bad, i had severl units , that were worthless and or didn't do anything. Ended up being a blood bath against my buddys dwarfs. He didn't roll a shooty dwarf list just 4 blocks of dwarfs a grudge thrower and the anvil.

tk flail, flaming chariot, Golden eye
priest staff of ravening
priest hieretic jar, and CoD
priest golden anhk

2 units of 3 chariots , the unit with the king has the icon of the sacred eye
25 skelton warriors, standard.
17 tg , mirage standard, champ
3 ushabti
3 carrion
giant
catapult

did decent, giant didnt' do squat and neither did the Tg, spent most of the game just being stupid, ushabati, ended up chasing a unit of thunderes around the last 3 turns. and the catapult didn't hit anything.

im gonna try some alternate list this friday for 2500 pts, more Tg and scorpions instead of ushabati.

Imus
06-07-2007, 04:23
im abit new to this warhammer melark, im a 40k player through and through. Anyway had a read and here is my list, any advice would be cool.

Tomb prince pts 131
light armour + great weapon +collar of shapesh

high liche priest (hiro) pts 340
cloak odf dunes + neferra's plaque + staff of ravening

liche priest Pts 330
casket of sould
+2 dispel scrolls

2 x 10 skellies (bows ) pts 160

25 skellies pts 245
(hand weapon+shield + command)

6 carrion pts 144

24 tomb guard pts 358
command + icon of rakuph

2 x tomb scorpion Pts 170

Screaming skull catapult pts 110

total 1988 - points left 12


dispel 5

scroll - 2

power dice - 5

thoughts?

Maelx
06-07-2007, 20:58
I don't like it. It lacks punch. How would you even kill a steam tank? Where are your fast chariots that can take advantage of flank bonuses with dual movement spells?

Your army will also live and die in it's magic phase. I recommend another cheap lich.

Revamp
06-07-2007, 21:13
Right, I have thought this through a lot and slipped back and forth from wanting all cavalry to all charriots but I saw the model for the Tomb Queen and found it so beautiful and so cheap in terms of points to pounds (7:420, oh boy!) that it was effectively irresistable and is definetely going to be in my army.

Accordingly I built it to suit her background, with lots and lots of archers and all of them packing poison. I play with people who love Special Characters so all is well on that front.

Roughly speaking the list is this:

Lord (Well, lady, I suppose)

Tomb Queen

Heroes

Liche Priest

Liche Priest

Liche Priest

All of these characters cause terror, the former because she always does and the latter three thanks to that severely underrated magical item that allows them to and each of them will be in a skellie squad, hopefully serving as a deterrent against would be assailents and using incantations to make them pump out an absurd amount of poisoned arrows.

Core

16 Archers

16 Archers

16 Archers

16 Archers

3 Charriots

Special

3 Carrion (Perhaps)

Rare

Screaming Skull Thrower (Skulls of Foes)



An alternative is having more charriots or perhaps cavalry at the cost of skeletons and having the Hierophant hidden and spending the game making two screaming skulls each turn. Cost is a factor here so Tomb Guard or Ushbanti are unlikely to be featured.

So what do you tacticians think?

Chiron
06-07-2007, 22:48
All of them cause terror? The queen yes, one other character but all of them? You cant take multiple items of the same type. If you keep them together thats a lot of eggs in one basket

Revamp
07-07-2007, 05:28
All of them cause terror? The queen yes, one other character but all of them? You cant take multiple items of the same type.

Ah yes!

Oh well, 2 out of 4 isn't bad.


If you keep them together thats a lot of eggs in one basket

They will be leading one squad each with the possible exception of the hiero.

Chiron
07-07-2007, 21:14
Honestly I think it lacks anything that can deal with monsters/characters/armour or large ranked units effectively, unless your lucky enough to get plenty of hills you'll get 8 shots per turn from each archer regiment and thats just not enough to take out some of the big things out there, add a unit of TG or Ushabti to pack some punch in close combat

Revamp
07-07-2007, 22:29
Honestly I think it lacks anything that can deal with monsters/characters/armour or large ranked units effectively, unless your lucky enough to get plenty of hills you'll get 8 shots per turn from each archer regiment and thats just not enough to take out some of the big things out there, add a unit of TG or Ushabti to pack some punch in close combat

As aformentioned money is an issue here so both of those are non-options. A regiment of TG costs 50 and Ushabti are not all that better.

111 or so is the price atm and that in itself is not really all that little is it?

I could, however, scratch build myself a second SSC with some time, patience, rummaging and imagination. If I scrapped one unit of skellies and divided then added another one into the remaining to (leaving me with two units of 25, meaning less hills would be needed) and then left the two liche priests freed up to cast incantations upon the SSCs would that be an improvement? Four shots a turn has quite a risk of miscasting but if it all goes wrong it could do some horrendous damage and maybe even get multiple units running for it.

Perhaps another charriot squad could be obtained with the money saved (since they cost the same in fiscal terms) and thus my flanks would be secured (or at least a bit more secure) and I would be able to stage a decent counter charge.

Sound like much of an improvement?

EDIT: Ah yes! And two skeleton squads means that both will cause terror (in addition to making the Queen's auto-smiting much more effective) and thus make it trickier for any offensives to engage.

Chiron
07-07-2007, 23:04
I think I spent about half of that entire amount on my army, ebay and trading are exceptionally useful, along with converting as much as possible (Plastic TG!) :P

Splitting the squads into 2 units of 25 sounds good, one can be deployed spread out in the middle to get them all shooting and you can then reform those the turn before you expect to receive a charge, 2 chariot squads are an improvement but wont be able to deal with things by themselves, use both of them together and dont attack anything with heavy armour or stubborn as they need to break units on the charge

Revamp
08-07-2007, 15:30
I think I spent about half of that entire amount on my army, ebay and trading are exceptionally useful, along with converting as much as possible (Plastic TG!) :P

Funny that you mentioned that actually!!

I spent much of last night and most of this morning working out how to scratch build Ushabati and I am going to try using the original Necron Immortal models (who look suitably statuesque and have the appropriate ancient Egyptian iconography, if a bit small) work out. I am also working on a Casket of Souls and maybe a Tomb Scorpion.

Could you give me any tips on plastic Tomb Guard please? That sounds like quite a brilliant idea!


Splitting the squads into 2 units of 25 sounds good, one can be deployed spread out in the middle to get them all shooting and you can then reform those the turn before you expect to receive a charge,

And they can even shoot that turn via incantations as well. Thanks for the advice.


2 chariot squads are an improvement but wont be able to deal with things by themselves, use both of them together and dont attack anything with heavy armour or stubborn as they need to break units on the charge

Not sure if I will go with two charriot squads after all if the aforementioned conversion/scratch building stuff I mentioned works out.

Chiron
08-07-2007, 16:16
If you check my project log you can take a look at my TG, I've basically just made them stand out a lot from the other skeletons in my army with old clothes, better shields/armour, stronger colours, had no complaints yet :)

Ninsaneja
08-07-2007, 18:07
I make my own plastic grave guard (for VC) out of skeleton models and chaos warrior plastics. Chaos make the best wights anyway... and they'd just need more tomb kings icons to be TK.

Revamp
08-07-2007, 21:27
Wow, that log is amazing! Your modelling and painting are of an intimidatingly high standard.

I came up with a new list today:


"Lords" (Lady)

TQKN: 420

Heroes

LP Death Mask, Vambraces of the Sun: 165

LP Cloak of the Dunes, Dispell Scroll: 165

LP Golden Ankhra, Casket of Souls: 325

Core

25 Skeletons, Standard of the Cursing Word, poison: 285

25 Skeletons, banner of the undying legion, poison: 285

3 Charriots, Mirage Standard: 190

Special

3 Ushabti: 195

Tomb Scorpion: 85

Rare

Screaming Skull Catapult, skulls of the foes: 110

Casket of Souls


Total: 2175


Yep, I overran. Not quite certain what I shall do to cut the cost but I am probably going to drop a priest, which would be a pity but would save me a fiver.

As you can probably tell the armylist changed fairly substantially. Now the plan is to have the terror causing priest in one archer unit and Khalida in the other. The second will be on the Casket while the third...Well, I am not really sure about the third's place which is why I am considering removing it from the list. The Queen and Priest use their incantations to make a hail of arrowy death while the Casket will be near to the Catapult (probably on a hill) and thus can get some double-skull firing going.

The flanks will be protected by the charriots and the Ushabti and hopefully the combination of toxic arrows, Casketing and skulls will be enough to weaken all comers enough for them to triumph in combat. Failing that the Queen is none too bad in combat herself.

The scorpion will most likely Come From Below as close to a cannon crew as I can manage or if there is none present help the charriots secure the flank not protected by Ushabtish goodness.

Sound better?

Chiron
08-07-2007, 22:52
Sounds a lot better, if you want to save points then I'd think about dropping the standard of cursing word (its nifty but not always effective) and the casket itself, its quite weak and vulnerable to artillery fire, and keeping the priests, that way you can almost certainly get spells off first turn or make him use his scrolls

and thanks for the compliment! :)

jahorin
12-07-2007, 15:11
I want to make a construct heavy army. The base would be a bone giant, 2 units of 4 Ushabti, 2 scorpion, and an Icon Bearer.

Now anybody got success with this kind of built?

What should I use to support my specials choices?

Also, I was more thinking on going with a LHP with the thing that make you re-roll your incantation (don't have my book at work).

Thanks guys.

ShadowKnight64
15-07-2007, 02:34
Hey guys, im very new to Fantasy and i actually just started Tomb Kings, i was wondering if you guys could kinda give me some help getting started and whatnot? i have a bunch of models and i've been reading the codex, but ive played very little fantasy (played alot of 40k and read the rulebook for Fantasy...but not got really engaged at all other than painting some models that i liked...)

i started getting a bunch of tomb Kings models and got them painted but never done anything with them yet, and ive had alot of trouble getting people to play 40k lately because of the Campaign going on at GW lately... so i figured its a good time to start playing my fantasy stuff while everyone is gung-hoe into it right now and refuses to look at 40k... so i finally picked up a Tombs Kings codex even and started looking into them as a playable army (not just for the models which i was previously doing), so ive read most of the fluff and really enjoyed it, although i did enjoy the fluff from the Orcs and Goblins also but thats another story..

Anyway...what im getting at, is i really need help wrapping my head around fantasy moreso and getting into what the Tomb Kings are really meant to do in games and what their driving force of the army is... i know there is probably tons of variants (like every other army..) but some general help about them would be great...

This is also my list of models...please read it and kinda give me some feedback on what i can do with them? i have everything but one squad of Skeleton Warriors painted and the Icon Bearer left to paint...
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1736746#post1736746

Hazm
16-07-2007, 05:19
Howdy, looks like you got a fair bit of help from the thread with all your units listed but I will give you my overview here as well as I haven't posted in this thread and if you don't use my advice someone else will. Ok. Tomb Kings. The key is magic for TKs, you should always take as many characters as possible, I wouldn't take an Icon Bearer, just a King or High Priest and Princes and Priests. You always want your Heirophant to have the Cloak of Dunes, it makes it a lot easier for you to keep him safe and get him to where he needs to be to cast his spells. I always give mine the Hieratic Jar as well so he can cast that extra spell which is often the difference between getting that crucial charge or not.
In my view it doesn't matter that much who your lord is, a High Priest or a King. I think the High Priest is a bit better due to our reliance on magic and the fact that a King is not that much better fighter than a Prince anyway.
For core units I always take at least 2 blocks of Skellies (we are talking about a 2000pt list here) with hand weapon, light armour and shield (4+ save), never spears as you gave them as they are not there for fighting but to hold enemy units in place. The idea with these units is to have them charge or be charged by enemy units, due to the Undead unbreakable rule your units, providing they are of a decent size (20+ for these blocks), will stay there for a few turns, pinning the enemy in place. Because your unit of Skellies sucks in combat they won't be winning the fight, so you need to tip the balance. This is where your other units come in. Anything that isn't a sponge (Skellie block or TG), or a shooting unit (Skellie archers or SSC) is a hammer. These units are things like Chariots (the best), Ushabti and Bone Giants. These units need to hit the enemy unit pinned with your Skellies in the flank, often aided by magic, so as to win the combat, adding their killing power and flank attack bonus with the ranks and outnumbering of the Skellies.

So there you go that is a pretty basic overview of how Tks should work, most of it has probably been posted already but I can't be bothered trawling through 12 pages to find it, and neither can you in all likelyhood. So I hope that helps you to start with, please ask more specific questions if you need more advice.

ShadowKnight64
17-07-2007, 00:16
Thank you tons, thats pretty much exactly what i wanted to be told, how to get practical use out of them, i agree with the Priests over Kings... i'd rather have a high priest than the TK but, isnt it possible to really back up skeletons to have the wins in cc? if you use the incantation to give them an extra round of fighting, shouldnt that help towards combat Res.? the wounds dont count i dont think, but it would help to get the outnumbering as well as make them lose ranks? if you can kill enough?

but i do like the idea of flanking them in his way and giving the stronger unit as well a second round of cc.. but doesnt this leave that other unit's flank exposed when flanking them? how does that work? if they drag their guys in? will people do this? if im using my bonegiant or a unit of chariots to flank a large unit while engaging them from the front, wont they countercharge and attack the flank of my Giant? or is this a bad idea of their part as it will drag in more units into a combat they are probably already losing?

Esco Thomson
17-07-2007, 14:07
I used to operate only with a LHP as my lord choice, but I have since switched and do not foresee myself going back without any significant rule changes.

The king in contrary to another post, I feel is a much better fighter than a prince. He does represent the sole model in the list capable of hitting strength 7, the only one who can wield the Destroyer of Eternities(should you go that route), but most importantly; he makes your chariots core. We play an army whose special slots are already over crowded, no need to add one more to the mix.

Granted I will not argue the importance of our magic phase, but you will be surprised at how much you actually need to have a successful magic phase. I have been using a TK, IB, LP, LP setup for a month or so and have still not been completely shut down. All in all it is a matter of personal preference, but I tend to see the LHP as more of a second lord choice for higher points games now.

Chiron
17-07-2007, 14:39
I have to agree with Esco, the King is an excellent lord choice, making chariots core is exceptionally good, the chariots themselves are capable of breaking small units on there own, dealing with enemy fast cavalry and generally being a pain to the enemy, as said it also frees up those valuable special slots, against armoured armies Ushabti are worth their weight in gold, against character heavy/artillery armies then Scorpions are priceless to pop up and tear the head off his characters within a turn

If you want an all round attack force then the kings essential, dont overlook the 2 spells at D6 power level either, many opponents try and stop them with 1 dice and fail

Plus he's about 100 points cheaper, in TK you need all the points you can get

jahorin
17-07-2007, 15:06
The problem with the TK, IB, LP, LP is that in the long run you lack healing power to raise your army.

I like the hitting power of the king, but I think that the choice of king or LHP really comes up to how you prefer to play, more offensive or defensive. I find that LHP lists tends to be more static with 2 SSC and lots or archers. And Kings army more offensive with chariots.

On another note, I was toying with the idea of putting a king in a unit of chariots with the crown of the king and with a unit of horseman next to him. He could try to really break the flank of my opponent.

Esco Thomson
17-07-2007, 22:50
The problem with the TK, IB, LP, LP is that in the long run you lack healing power to raise your army.

This is simply not true. As long as you take the Banner of the Undying Legion; and hunt mages as most Tomb Kings armies should be doing period, this will not be an issue.

I have honestly yet to run into a situation where I felt that I lacked any sort of magical power, healing or otherwise.

jahorin
17-07-2007, 22:54
My last game against dwarves, I had the Banner of Undying Legion, TK, TP, LP, Lp and I was shut down on 2 magic phase, he had runepriest, DS, and luck... so in the end I couldn't heal my TK and his squellies enough.

Cragspyder
18-07-2007, 05:12
Well, keep in mind that was against the army with pretty much the best (and strongest by default) magic defense in the game.

As for myself, I am planning to use the TK, IB, LP, LP in my own 2k list when I get the cash for it. I can't speak to its effectiveness as of yet, but its good to know that other people have been trying it out and finding it effective to a degree.

The LHP seems extremely effective its just not my style of play personally. That is to say, a defensive magical list is not my style, not that an effective one isn't my style :) Though my record says otherwise.

Hazm
18-07-2007, 06:07
The king in contrary to another post, I feel is a much better fighter than a prince. He does represent the sole model in the list capable of hitting strength 7, the only one who can wield the Destroyer of Eternities(should you go that route), but most importantly; he makes your chariots core. We play an army whose special slots are already over crowded, no need to add one more to the mix.

I never said the King is no good, just that I think the High Priest is better, as I still do. A King is a reasonable fighter, but he doesn't really compare to fighty characters of other races so IMO his main purpose is to use his spells, add killing power to your units which lack it (Skellies, Chariots vs armoured stuff) and of course to make Chariots core (and allow a Skellie block to take a banner - not to be overlooked). Having said all that I do run a King most of the time now as my opponents tend to moan at a High Priest because of the complete and utter dominance he allows over the magic phase, personally I think that is the thing you need to master, and everything else slots into place after that.


isnt it possible to really back up skeletons to have the wins in cc? if you use the incantation to give them an extra round of fighting, shouldnt that help towards combat Res.? the wounds dont count i dont think, but it would help to get the outnumbering as well as make them lose ranks? if you can kill enough?

Yes that is one of the main benefits of a King I think, it allows your Skellies to actually beat stuff in CC and I prefer to use him in foot blocks than mounted as he is safer and I think has more effect on the game. I use him with the Flail of Skulls and Collar of Shapesh so he can take down characters and tough stuff (Giants, Steam Tanks, Treemen e.t.c.) which is something we struggle with (the exception is Ushabti). He also makes your infantry a lot faster with his spells, and I like to deploy my 2 Skellie blocks close to each other for this reason, it also helps if you want a hammer unit moving to flank as I said before as the King will be nearby.

As to your other point I don't think it matters much, you should be able to break the thing you flank charge in one round and (hopefully) overrun/pursue out of the way of a counter charge. If not, like you say, our units are pretty forgiving so if a unit gets charged it will probably stay there and you can go help it out with other units and the help of magic and stuff, hopefully taking out the enemy counter charging unit as well!

Can someone please explain to me also why you would take an Icon Bearer over a Priest or Prince? All of the banners worth taking can be taken by Skellies or Chariots anyway and you lose that all important bit of magic. They just seem so crap to me I wondered what you think they actually do for you?

Thanks.

Frankly
18-07-2007, 12:22
For me atleast TK is all about magic and mobility, infact it has one of the most under rated movement/magic abilities in the game. The share fact that you can grind out the same movement spell, not have to roll for it and never miscast it, gives TK a huge edge in mobility.

The thing is you need a delivery system the spell and the only way to do this effectively and constantly is with a strong magic phase = high priest, priest, priest, prince. For me atleast its that simple.

Esco Thomson
18-07-2007, 14:47
My last game against dwarves, I had the Banner of Undying Legion, TK, TP, LP, Lp and I was shut down on 2 magic phase, he had runepriest, DS, and luck... so in the end I couldn't heal my TK and his squellies enough.

But in all honesty against that setup you are going to get shut down once or twice most likely irregardless of who you bring to the table. That is the strength of a dwarf setup like that. Also, mentioning that luck was on his side is something that can't be helped either. It all boils down to personal preference in the end, but I can say that played correctly you do not lose out on much magical power in the end.




Can someone please explain to me also why you would take an Icon Bearer over a Priest or Prince? All of the banners worth taking can be taken by Skellies or Chariots anyway and you lose that all important bit of magic. They just seem so crap to me I wondered what you think they actually do for you?

Thanks.

I don't give mine a banner at all. I take him because his base cost is cheaper, and does now add a cumulative +1 CR. The extra help for nearby constructs is gravy, but not altogether used that frequently for me. In my list I have him mounted on a steed, with the Armor of the Ages, and the Vambraces of the Sun. Makes him a bit more durable, maneuverable, and adds a little "oomph" to my TG. He certainly could use some improvement, but for what is the most underused unit in our list he seems to perform quite well for me, and suggest you give him a try. Not to mention that when trying to win combat, and rely on fear to force the run, the extra CR is somewhat akin to a pseudo automatic wound. It's at the very least reliable.

Mad Makz
19-07-2007, 00:37
Esco - that is something I hadn't considered previously (putting the Icon Bearer on a steed in Tomb Guard) because it only really has become viable since the 7th ed rule changes preventing him from being targetted. That's actually quite a good combo, and combined with a nearby Skellie unit with a Prince/King in it and a Liche Priest (High if you don't take a King) nearby to keep the units moving gives you quite a strong infantry core and not too fragile a bsb. Add in some nearby ushabti for flanking/shock attack (who are pretty scary with the BSB within range) and you've got a pretty formidable force to dominate a flank or hold the centre of your army.

Hazm
19-07-2007, 04:26
In my list I have him mounted on a steed, with the Armor of the Ages, and the Vambraces of the Sun.
That guy costs 125pts, I would personally much rather a Prince with a great weapon who comes in at 105pts with +1 WS, +1 T, +2 S, +1 A, +1 Ld (for what it's worth), The Curse and an all important extra incantation. I am spending 20 less points and losing 2 points of armour save, which is made up for by the T5, killing blow, which is nice but only 2 attacks... 1 point of Combat Res, which is made up for by the Prince's far superior stats (allowing him to kill more) and the -1 wound from Combat Res, which for me is just meh. You can use those 20pts to get him Vambraces or whatever but honsetly the extra incantation does it for me, even if the IB was a little bit better in CC I would still go for that extra incantation, it is magic not combat ability which wins games for TK.

Having said all that you have given me some interesting points and I will indeed have to try him out, maybe in big games where you have enough magic and there are lots of units within 12" he would be worth it?

WusteGeist
19-07-2007, 05:32
Alright a few quick notes from some one who's played TK forever and a day.
First a foot king is a really good pick simple because you put him in a tomb guard unit with Icon of Rakaph and you suddenly have a mass murder unit out there. Make sure the King has the DOE. That is such a sweet toy in a unit like that. In fact in my gaming circle folks go out of there way to either engulf this unit OR stay away from my King with DOE and tomb guard with icon of Rakaph.

Next core choices.
Chariots, rank and file skeles are nice but chariots solve so many more problems. Also fast cav are good. You can do the move shoot and magic shoot to really wear folks down. For example one turn with magic I got on the order of 15 shots off against a giant. Did 3 wounds to him. Brought the beast down to half points.

Special choices.
Tomb Guard and scorpion. These units speak for themselves hard core hard to hurt.

Rare choices.
Skull chucker catapults. Right now I am torn between taking 2 or taking one and the casket of souls. That thing is sooo bloody powerful.

Let me retouch on peeps real quick.
High Liche priest is neat but I am sorry he is just not worth it in anything less than 3k. Right now the best combo (at least for me) is Tomb King and 3 liches priests. That gives me enough magic that I shut down most things and with 5 dispel dice and 3 to 4 scrolls (on average) I tend to control the magic phase.

Tomb Prince, hes sadly not worth the points. I have yet to find a combo that makes him useable beyond the first turn. Sure sure you can give him the flail or the spear and make him a turn one wonder punch. But his WS and ST are too low. Odds of him wiffing are too good.

Icon bearer, I miss mine I even made a special one, he was cool looking. But again sadly he is just not good enough. He is weak in combat and has no access to any real armour. Which as we all know is a very bad thing. Trust me I don't like getting rid of my BSB for many reasons, but the extra magic is just too nice.

Lastly whoever made the comment of have a 5+armour save and 4 wounds = 6 wounds. You might not know this maybe you do but I doubt it, armour saves in fantasy can be modified by ST of an attack. 4=-1 5=-2 so on so forth maxing out at st10-7. So no a 5+ armour save and 4 wounds is not equal to 6 wounds. Because you can never count on being hit by only st3 attacks.

Esco Thomson
19-07-2007, 12:31
That guy costs 125pts, I would personally much rather a Prince with a great weapon who comes in at 105pts with +1 WS, +1 T, +2 S, +1 A, +1 Ld (for what it's worth), The Curse and an all important extra incantation. I am spending 20 less points and losing 2 points of armour save, which is made up for by the T5, killing blow, which is nice but only 2 attacks... 1 point of Combat Res, which is made up for by the Prince's far superior stats (allowing him to kill more) and the -1 wound from Combat Res, which for me is just meh. You can use those 20pts to get him Vambraces or whatever but honsetly the extra incantation does it for me...

If you want to compare them(Which I find hard as they are different costs as well as they have different uses), then we need to hit the numbers head on at least. My build comes to 123 points(IB with SS, AotA, VotS) and yours comes to 104 (TP, GW, LA).

Movement: IB-8, TP-4
Weapon Skill: TP-5, IB-4, SS-2
Ballistic Skill: TP-4, IB-3, SS-0
Strength: TP-4(6), IB-4, SS-3
Toughness: TP-5, IB-4
Wounds: TP-3, IB-2(3)
Initiative: TP-3, IB-3, SS-2
Attacks: TP-3, IB-2, SS-1
Leadership: TP-9, IB-8
Armor Save: IB-4+, TP-6+


...the Prince's far superior stats (allowing him to kill more)...
So Tomb Prince wins out in Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill(WHEE!), Strength, Toughness, and Leadership. While Icon Bearer wins out in Movement and Armor Save. They tie in Wounds, Initiative and Attacks. A TP brings a joined unit/self 1d6 MWBD, and the Curse, but suffers from being Flammable. The IB brings a guaranteed +1 CR, reduces crumble by 1, has KB on his 2 attacks, and counts as being armed with a magical weapon. I guess it is an opinion, but I wouldn't exactly deem that as "far superior".

You gain a slight boost in your magic phase with your prince, higher strength base attacks, with possible damage if he should die. I gain a maneuverable multi functional combat enhancer/damage control unit who can get lucky(KB) and cause significantly more damage than his higher strength counterpart.


...even if the IB was a little bit better in CC I would still go for that extra incantation, it is magic not combat ability which wins games for TK.

I think this is half true...We do need our magic, this is true, but I feel it is the blend of both that lets us win games. An extra combat phase means little without any hitting power. We need balance, that I feel is what wins games for TK.