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Artemis360
19-07-2012, 18:51
I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

IcedCrow
19-07-2012, 18:55
Find a group that doesn't max spam and break the game. Profit.

Or go play warmachine which has its own issues. I'm going back to WM because its nice to mix up my games and I own a cryx army. Flat out quitting because some people are playing in a way i find not fun... not so much. I just find a new group

Radium
19-07-2012, 18:59
Or just accept what GW wants from this game now: an enjoyable game. Allow FW stuff, and all of a sudden there's plenty of flyers for everyone to choose from!

Damocles8
19-07-2012, 19:01
I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

You do realise that it's going to be very difficult to field a maxed fly list, right? They don't turn on a dime, they have a limited arc, if you manage to kill everything they have on the table in turn 1, game is over! in a 2000 point tourny, if you put 2000 pts on the table vs. their <1000 pts. that's left, you should be able to kill all of it turn 1.

Battleworthy Arts
19-07-2012, 19:10
Sour grapes, man.

I play 40k and war machine. Neither is perfect but both are fun... and an inability to adapt to new conditions will sour you to either one of them.

Konovalev
19-07-2012, 19:12
So you've never actually faced flyer spam. Nor do I believe that you have faced any fliers at all if you think they break the game. Honestly I'd be surprised if you've even played a game of 6th and didn't just read some of the rules throw up your hands and go "Worst edition ever I'm out".

Bye, have fun with your other game system.

Hovey
19-07-2012, 19:16
I have to ask the original poster.

How many games have you played where either you or the opponent has used a flyer?

Flyers are incredible difficult to use when compared to an average vehicle. They have no table presence turn 1, include that no more then half your army can be in reserve (not including units that have to be in reserve), your opponent using heavy flyer spam will have to put stuff on the board, which you should be able to annihlate unless your army is all close combat. The flyers get turn 2-3 to do shooting, with easily targeting what they want on the first turn they arrive, and mabye targeting what they want the turn after because of limited arc and minimum move distances. In all likly hood the vehicle does nothing on turn 4 of the game, the only option they have is to fly off the table. Turn 5-6 they get to shoot again. Flyers only get 3-4 turns of shooting a game. And if the game ends while they are in reserve they are considered destroyed. Lastly, you need troops to win 5/6 mission in the book. If you concentrate on thier troops (just like in 5th), you can denie them the ability to win.

Flyers are really hard to destroy, but don't get turn 1, they fall off the board 1/3 turns, every other turn they are on the board they won't get to strike what they want, and if they fell off the board the turn the game ends they are destroyed. They are a great support unit, but you can't spam them and expect to win.

Its really easy to look at a Vendetta and think, that 3 twin linked lascannon flyer will shoot my best unit every turn of this 5-7 turn game, and I can't even scratch it.

The reality is at best they get 4 out of 7 turns of shooting, and 2 of those turns at not shooting your best unit.

Vepr
19-07-2012, 19:36
I have to ask the original poster.

How many games have you played where either you or the opponent has used a flyer?

Flyers are incredible difficult to use when compared to an average vehicle. They have no table presence turn, include that no more then half your army can be in reserve (not including units that have to be in reserve), your opponent using heavy flyer spam will have to put stuff on the board, which you should be able to annihlate unless your army is all close combat. The flyers get turn 2-3 to do shooting, with easily targeting what they want on the first turn they arrive, and mabye targeting what they want the turn after because of limited arc and minimum move distances. In all likly hood the vehicle does nothing on turn 4 of the game, the only option they have is to fly off the table. Turn 5-6 they get to shoot again. Flyers only get 3-4 turns of shooting a game. And if the game ends while they are in reserve they are considered destroyed. Lastly, you need troops to win 5/6 mission in the book. If you concentrate on thier troops (just like in 5th), you can denie them the ability to win.

Flyers are really to destroy, but don't get turn 1, they fall off the board 1/3 turns, every other turn they are on the board they won't get to strike what they want, and if they fell off the board the turn the game ends they are destroyed. They are a great support unit, but you can't spam them and expect to win.

I thought the storm raven was going to be a nightmare to deal with but it actually came down easier than I expected. Now it did eat a lot of fire over two turns from lootas, defcoptas, and a battlewagon but actually the dice worked against the ork player so it should have come down turn 2 just due to hull points (the first turn it was on the board) if it was not for a lot of lucky jink rolls. I was thinking to myself that three of them would be ugly but then in that big of a game you are going to have trouble maneuvering them or even fitting them on the board in some cases depending on what both sides bring. That being said orks can bring a large volume of medium strength shots to the table giving them a better chance to glance fliers to pieces. I have not faced one with my nids yet so my opinion could change lol. ;)

Banville
19-07-2012, 19:44
I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

Hmmmmmm.....so you're going hulk because GW have put the emphasis back on shooting rather than cloose combat? And hypothetical games where flyers are sooooooo good they'll dominate everything as opposed to being hideously expensive, AV12 glass cannons?

I offer you a shiny penny for the army that you'll never use again.

tiger g
19-07-2012, 19:57
I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

sorry you are leaving. Could you direct us to your ebay listings of your armies.

Carnage
19-07-2012, 21:07
Hmmmmmm.....so you're going hulk because GW have put the emphasis back on shooting rather than cloose combat? And hypothetical games where flyers are sooooooo good they'll dominate everything as opposed to being hideously expensive, AV12 glass cannons?

I offer you a shiny penny for the army that you'll never use again.

BACK on shooting? 5th was, and now 6th seems to be completely shooting based.

SideshowLucifer
19-07-2012, 21:28
It's like any game, you need combined forces. My wraiths still do fine and I shoot fine. Mix in a few of each element you need and learn to pick your opponent's army apart in a manner that hurts them. It's more then point and charge now, thankfully. I was also a PG'er for PP for many many years and I can't imagine you will like their games for long if this is upsetting you.

Welfstar
19-07-2012, 21:33
It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then?

Yeah, it will balance out. Of course it will.

Why should you have to wait? 'Cos everyone else has to too.

Not all the army books come out at once. They trickle out, one by one, in the same manner they have for the last 25 years. An experienced and passionate player like yourself should be accustomed to this trend. :eyebrows:

blackcherry
19-07-2012, 21:43
Not shooting based so much.5th edition had a lot of transports, due to how tough vehicles were, that passengers could score in them, you were more mobile and just how much firepower you could bring for the points. In 6th, a lot of those points have been addressed and assault armies are more viable now there will probably be less vehicle spam.

However, the game is taking the route of more balanced forced winning over those that are predominantly one or the other, whilst putting mechanisms in place to stop bezerker charge armies from prior editions.

I remember playing such lists myself in 3rd. Whilst it was fun, I did feel sorry for armies who didn't have the combat ability to beat my 40/50 man marine army, that would get into combat and just roll an army up. At least those shooty armies have a chance to take some guys with them before they are butchered now. Not that overwatch is that powerfulanyway.

Its just a new edition and change=bad. 90% of the people moaning on the forums have no real want to leave the game and won't either. They just need to have a moan to make themselves feel better.

spagg
19-07-2012, 21:50
I've played several games of 6th and love it. My group has been having a lot of fun. No one has spammed fliers, but the ones I have faced didn't break the games by any means (I didn't have any fliers or have AA).

Noserider
19-07-2012, 22:41
For the little it is worth 6th has actually made me start playing 40k because to me it seems SF skirmish shouldn't have much close quarter combat in, should include low level flyer/fighters and armoured vehicles/tanks should be fragile on a small area of combat unless well supported by infantry. Squads should be able to fire on people closing in on them. Most of the things people tend to be moaning about.

So all in all it's delivered and dragged me away from other rules which are often offered as alternatives to 40k.

Rich Jones

PANZERBUNNY
19-07-2012, 22:53
You do realise that it's going to be very difficult to field a maxed fly list, right? They don't turn on a dime, they have a limited arc, if you manage to kill everything they have on the table in turn 1, game is over! in a 2000 point tourny, if you put 2000 pts on the table vs. their <1000 pts. that's left, you should be able to kill all of it turn 1.

Sort of disheartening to hear that this can happen.

Killing half of someones army that easy.

Carnage
19-07-2012, 23:24
Sort of disheartening to hear that this can happen.

Killing half of someones army that easy.

He's exaggerating, clearly. You cannot drop 50% of your opponent's army in 1, even 2 turns without some big luck.

Killgore
19-07-2012, 23:27
All those flyers? who the hell is capturing the game winning objectives?

or heaven forbid you are playing line em up and knock em down games with no purpose other than to kill?

blackcherry
19-07-2012, 23:33
If you outnumber a persons army by close to double the points they have, good players should be able to. But then a lot of the stories people write about tabling opponents in several turns via shooting is due to the table not having enough terrain on it (and a decent mix as well, 3 hills and a wood doesn't count as variety).

Assault armies that use terrain for cover shouldn't have anything to worry about from a shooty army, as long as they have support.

Latro_
19-07-2012, 23:41
I'v not played against flyers yet but i considered a dakka jet for my orks, i found my self really struggling to see how i'd eep it effective with how they move, they really are tricky when you think about it.

Also you have flak cannons you can buy as terrain, tide you over until new books which will blantantly be laden with the new spec rules, including skyfire and flakk missiles and all sorts

Plus you also have reserve roll debuffs etc.

Close combat, no retreat is gone, vehicles are now waffer thin so dont present much of a prob and in CC you smash them.. Kharn is now (i think) the best anti tank unit in the game right now.
Jump troops became better and although the random charge averages 7, fleet now really buffs this with a re-roll on 'either' dice, huge.
Overwatch, meh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmz7uXeWz_c

Scribe of Khorne
20-07-2012, 00:21
I look to get one really good round out of my flyers (2 dakka jets) per game. When you line something up right, Waaagh! and its removed as a threat. This is no different then getting a unit in the open and unloading 2 Venoms, or a Dissie Ravager at something, and its far easier to coordinate the movement of those types of vehicles vs Flyers.

6th has really lived up to the hype around here with my group, we are all quite pleased.

onidemon
20-07-2012, 00:37
I have gotten to field my Dakkajet once so far. Looking at how it did:

- Ground forces can outmaneuver it to some degree. If you're within eighteen inches of the front of the jet, it's not touching you this turn.

- It's not always around - poor reserve rolls can keep it at bay, as can turns where all it does is fly past your army and off the board

- It can lay down a staggering amount of fire when a Waaagh is called. It will make any Ork cackle with delight. It would be a real terror against squadrons of lightly armored vehicles.

- It is not invulnerable. Rapid firing bolters can be an effective anti-aircraft solution when dealing with Ork flyers, simply because they can glance it to death.

- It is unlikely it die the moment it arrives. Which is nice, as my lonely Valkyrie has never survived a turn on the 5th edition battlefield.

- While it is powerful, you're giving up nearly 22 shoota boyz worth of points to field it. I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather shoot at one un-maneuverable airplane with bolters and hope for some glancing hits, than try to deal with 22 more ork boyz parked on an objective.

Of course, this is with only one jet. Three could be a real headache, but that's a headache for armies without air support now, and a headache for the owner of $150 worth of Dakkajets when AA weapons and interceptors start appearing in every army.

Oh, and it looks ace on the board.

Grindgodgrind
20-07-2012, 01:04
Whole lot of knee jerking going on around here. I'm really enjoying 6th ed, personally.

mostlyharmless
20-07-2012, 01:17
How many points is a quad-gun turret? I don't have my rulebook in front of me, so I'm not sure. Last I checked, that would end a flyer's day pretty quick.

squeekenator
20-07-2012, 02:13
Yeah, my first instinct upon seeing the flyer rules was to switch out all my ravagers for razorwings and wipe the board clean in an instant. After actually playing some games, though, I'm back to the ravagers. Fliers move really fast, but in many ways their mobility is actually worse than a ground vehicle's, to the point where even when they are on the board, half the time they won't be able to shoot at anything. I'll admit I didn't play that many games, but in my experience, each flier gets two or three turns to shoot every game. Yes, they're hard to kill. BS1 sucks. But they don't really dish out enough firepower to be worth shooting at anyway. Just ignore them and focus on the stuff that does die.

Scaryscarymushroom
20-07-2012, 02:14
an inability to adapt to new conditions will sour you to either one of them.


So you've never actually faced flyer spam. Nor do I believe that you have faced any fliers at all if you think they break the game.



How many games have you played where either you or the opponent has used a flyer?



Hmmmmmm.....so you're going hulk because GW have put the emphasis back on shooting rather than cloose combat?



Why should you have to wait? 'Cos everyone else has to too.

Not all the army books come out at once.

Is it just me? I'm having a hard time seeing why any of the above reasons is enough to continue playing 40k. The slow release schedule is a huge problem for me. The OP doesn't like the flyer rules. He thinks the rules look cheesy. And if they aren't cheesy and overpowered, he can still dislike the rules. What is he supposed to do? Refuse any opponent who has a flyer? So the game changed. It changed in a way the OP didn't like and now he's 'going hulk' and playing like he's got a pair. What's the problem with that?

And an inability to adapt to imperfect conditions won't ruin every game for you if you happen to like the imperfect game in the first place. So the OP can go play privateer press and bask in all the imperfections of warmahordes. And I bet he'll enjoy it.



But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$.


This is enough. If a game doesn't deliver like you want it to, there's no reason you should be forced to like it; or even forced to change it to your liking. There's a good quote from someone around here "With warhammer, you have fun in spite of the rules."

That's just dumb. :p IMO no one should play a game and struggle to overcome their dislike for the rules in order to have fun. If you don't like the rules, don't play by the rules. An easy way to do this is to play a different game. One with rules you like more.

To conclude, however, I must say that I disagree with your decision to quit warhammer cold-turkey. I do hope you enjoy PP (I know I am!), but keep your warhammer "good times" in mind.

IMO, each edition of 40k is a different yet similar game. Just because you don't like 6th edition doesn't mean you don't like what 40k means to you. All that a new edition means to me is less people to play with. Get together with some like-minded 5th edition-ers and play at someone's house. Or, you know. At a club. In spite of all the shooty-flying new-bookers. :p

Artemis360
20-07-2012, 05:29
This is really bizarre. A bunch of people telling me I am clearly basing this on theory and haven't really played fliers. Well, it seems that some of you are the ones who havent played fliers so i'll give you the benefit of my experience. Here's a brief battle report of a game I played.

My list:

Corteaz

6x henchmen squads (3 multimelta servitors, 2 warriors, twin-linked lascannon razorback)
3x psyfle dreadnauts
2x stormravens (hurricane bolters, assault cannon, psybolt ammo, multimelta)

His list:

2x destroyer necron lords, tachyon arrows, warscythes

6x 5 necron warriors in night scythe transports

3x doom scythes.

This was tournament practice with my buddy and I built a list to give him the hardest time I could so that we could see if he really did have a good shot at 1st place. We set up with 2 pieces of area terrain in each corner and some high ruined walls dotted around.

Deployment:
Destroyer lords both deploy out of sight behind some ruins. Everything else in reserve since theyre flyers and have to be.

I deploy all my dreads and razorbacks spread out across my deployment zone, grabbing cover where I can.

Turn 1: He hides.

My turn 1: I move up closer to the middle of the board, pop smoke on most of my units. I can't draw LOS to his destroyer lords.

Turn 2: 7 out of 9 flyers arrive, including 2 of the doom scythes. Some come on at an extreme angle in order to bring their fire to bear on the closer units. 1 deathray insta-pops a dreadnaut and takes a hullpoint from a razorback, it's destructors take the rest of the hull points from the razorback.
The two destroyer lords come out of cover and fire their tachyon arrows. One dreadnaut insta-pops, another is immobilised.
Another razorback is hull-pointed to death by destructors (getting hitting with all 4 shots, one being a 6, so 6 hits altogether).
Anyway, this goes on until 2 out of 3 dreads are dead, along with 4 out of 6 razorbacks.

My turn 2: Both stormravens arrive. One multimeltas a doomscythe to death with machine spirit and steals a hullpoint from another with all its psybolt fire. The other stormraven takes down another nightscythe. Most of my multimelta servitors miss and one is cover saved. Another manages to put an immobilised result on a nightscythe, which of course doesnt kill it. Another nightscythe suffers weapon destroyed from one of the two lascannon razorbacks. The remaining rifledread rolls 3, 4, 5, 5 and thus misses.

Death toll is now: 1 nightscythe, 1 doomscythe - to - 4 razorbacks, 2 rifledreads and a few henchmen dying to explode results.

Turn 3: The rest of his stuff arrives. Doesn't requir much description except to say that both stormravens die (due to being hit with a bunch of twin-linked tesla and a deathray from the remaining doom scythe. The last dreadnaut dies, along with 1 more razorback. He also drops off some of his necron warriors who are about to rapid fire some of my infantry.

With the deathtoll now being 10 out of 11 of my vehicles and me having no way to shoot his flyers down, I concede.


Now, maybe you don't agree with my list or the way I played, but if you think a full flier build can't take your army apart, then you obviously haven't played a necron flier list. I still haven't played a vendetta spam and I don't think I'm going to.

Edit: I also want to say that I wouldn't ever normally run this list. It was just for tournament practice. The razorbacks, corteaz and the henchmen were all proxies.

agurus1
20-07-2012, 05:48
Can't you only reserve 50%? You friend was not playing with a legal list if so.

Omniassiah
20-07-2012, 06:03
Can't you only reserve 50%? You friend was not playing with a legal list if so.

50% of your units that can start on the table must. In his friends case he deployed 100% of the models that must be deployed on the table.

Ronin_eX
20-07-2012, 06:12
Units that must be deployed in reserve (i.e. flyers) are not counted against the limit and if the unit is a dedicated transport it and its parent unit are counted as a single unit. That said with only two units starting on the board at the beginning of the game it seems like it is a huge risk to field that list (especially if you are dealing with an army with first turn deepstrikers like Space Marines).

That said, your list is the kind of thing one would have expected to be a power list... last edition. Did you design this list with an eye toward using the new edition or did you just take a list from last edition and call it a day? Mech was one of the things specifically neutered in this edition and you had it out in full swing. Had you taken a more flexible list, perhaps with some pods or other first-turn DS options then you would have been able to exploit the fact that he starts with two models on the field. Kill those two models and he loses. A Sternguard drop-pod assault list would eat him alive with some combi-melta units in there (as I recall the Destroyer Lord can't grab the 2+ save upgrade so even combi-plasma would eat him alive). Starting with nearly 90+% of your army in reserve is a big risk in this edition.

Anything that can deploy good infiltrators, deep strikers on the first turn or has the mobility to get a firing angle on them (or just bring guard with a lot of big, indirect fire, guns) would rip you friend's list a new one. Sure, if things go his way he's in a good position, but relying on luck too much will make for a bad competitive list. Not to mention if you had actually brought any fortifications with Skyfire weaponry on them.

The metagame has changed, spamming mech-units may not be the best way to go. Take this loss as a lesson and change things up. We don't know what the metagame actually looks like yet because half of the people are sticking to old tactics and the other half have glommed on to flyer-heavy lists that seem to trump the prior lists. Few people are working on anything else yet. Remember, 5th's metagame was only really understood later in its life when mech finally took off. You were testing out a tournament build and you found out what its apparent foil was. If you can foresee Necron flyer lists being a problem at tourneys then put something in the list to deal with them. In your friend's case the easy tactic is to kill the two lords on the first turn. And I figure the GK have a good chunk of ways to do that in their list. Two unsupported units shouldn't last too long unless your list was not expecting such an occurrence.

agurus1
20-07-2012, 06:38
yeah I mean seriously the necron player is lucky you wen't able to kill him turn 1 that would have been hilarious lol

hell if you had got 1st turn you would have had 2 player turns to pop his lords

ModelCalamity
20-07-2012, 06:45
I don't understand how you possibly could have lost.

Your list was an absolute cc monster. By all rights this should have been an auto win.

I particularly like how you hugged cover the first turn because those short ranged necrons are at their most dangerous outside their 24" range.

I also like how you manage to place your storm ravens so that they still can be shot at even if all his flyers still need to move 18" inches.

Sexiest_hero
20-07-2012, 07:44
Although you may not agree with the OPs opinion, He has a right to voice them without the mocking. Necron fliers are the tops this edition, much like leaf blowers, avoidplaying the in friendly games, and learn to survive them in tourny games. The razor wall of 5th is dead, you need more bodies.

Rick Blaine
20-07-2012, 08:01
OP probably played terribly, but I find the replies saying that Vendettas are hard to use and unmaneuverable absolutely hilarious. Hover mode, ever heard of it? You have 2 turns in Zoom mode to clear anything that could conceivably threaten you, then when you reach the opposite edge of the table you go Hover, turn on a dime, and shoot whatever vehicles are left in the ****. Game.

MasterDecoy
20-07-2012, 08:12
This is really bizarre. A bunch of people telling me I am clearly basing this on theory and haven't really played fliers. Well, it seems that some of you are the ones who havent played fliers so i'll give you the benefit of my experience. Here's a brief battle report of a game I played.

My list:

Corteaz

6x henchmen squads (3 multimelta servitors, 2 warriors, twin-linked lascannon razorback)
3x psyfle dreadnauts
2x stormravens (hurricane bolters, assault cannon, psybolt ammo, multimelta)

His list:

2x destroyer necron lords, tachyon arrows, warscythes

6x 5 necron warriors in night scythe transports

3x doom scythes.

This was tournament practice with my buddy and I built a list to give him the hardest time I could so that we could see if he really did have a good shot at 1st place. We set up with 2 pieces of area terrain in each corner and some high ruined walls dotted around.

Deployment:
Destroyer lords both deploy out of sight behind some ruins. Everything else in reserve since theyre flyers and have to be.

I deploy all my dreads and razorbacks spread out across my deployment zone, grabbing cover where I can.

Turn 1: He hides.

My turn 1: I move up closer to the middle of the board, pop smoke on most of my units. I can't draw LOS to his destroyer lords.

Turn 2: 7 out of 9 flyers arrive, including 2 of the doom scythes. Some come on at an extreme angle in order to bring their fire to bear on the closer units. 1 deathray insta-pops a dreadnaut and takes a hullpoint from a razorback, it's destructors take the rest of the hull points from the razorback.
The two destroyer lords come out of cover and fire their tachyon arrows. One dreadnaut insta-pops, another is immobilised.
Another razorback is hull-pointed to death by destructors (getting hitting with all 4 shots, one being a 6, so 6 hits altogether).
Anyway, this goes on until 2 out of 3 dreads are dead, along with 4 out of 6 razorbacks.

My turn 2: Both stormravens arrive. One multimeltas a doomscythe to death with machine spirit and steals a hullpoint from another with all its psybolt fire. The other stormraven takes down another nightscythe. Most of my multimelta servitors miss and one is cover saved. Another manages to put an immobilised result on a nightscythe, which of course doesnt kill it. Another nightscythe suffers weapon destroyed from one of the two lascannon razorbacks. The remaining rifledread rolls 3, 4, 5, 5 and thus misses.

Death toll is now: 1 nightscythe, 1 doomscythe - to - 4 razorbacks, 2 rifledreads and a few henchmen dying to explode results.

Turn 3: The rest of his stuff arrives. Doesn't requir much description except to say that both stormravens die (due to being hit with a bunch of twin-linked tesla and a deathray from the remaining doom scythe. The last dreadnaut dies, along with 1 more razorback. He also drops off some of his necron warriors who are about to rapid fire some of my infantry.

With the deathtoll now being 10 out of 11 of my vehicles and me having no way to shoot his flyers down, I concede.


Now, maybe you don't agree with my list or the way I played, but if you think a full flier build can't take your army apart, then you obviously haven't played a necron flier list. I still haven't played a vendetta spam and I don't think I'm going to.

Edit: I also want to say that I wouldn't ever normally run this list. It was just for tournament practice. The razorbacks, corteaz and the henchmen were all proxies.

just to make sure ive got this right:

you knew what you where up against (at least suspected) when he deployed virtually nothing, decided to deploy everything (as much as you could anyway) knowing he would have first turn, let him alpha stike you, then complained because your 5th ed list doesnt auto win anymore because you chose not to keep anything in reserve to come back with...

yup, rulebooks fault as far as I can see

Battleworthy Arts
20-07-2012, 08:18
God forbid you take your experience, analyze it, and come up with a plan. That would be playing the game.

Much better to ragequit.

But hey, when people are looking this hard for a reason not to play, I say let them quit. Its your money and your time, and you certainly arent obliged to play a game you dont want to play. But if really want to play 40k, and feel it is somehow "ruined", you are in fact being silly.

Artemis360
20-07-2012, 09:42
The majority of the last few responses are incredibly insulting, negative and unhelpful. If someone says they have a problem and expresses how aggrovated they feel about it and your first response is to enjoy the opportunity to be as offensive as possible, your response is valueless - basically wasted bandwidth. If I'd read a post like this by someone else, I'd probably have thought about it and written up any tactics I could think of for them to use. Certainly I wouldn't just say they played terribly without any constructive input on how to improve their game. It's stuff like this that makes threads not useful. Most of all, it certainly doesn't show that you have any note-worthy skills yourself.

And as for any venomous comments made as a response to what you might consider to be someone playing a ******* 5th ed style list, as I stated before, I don't own or have ever owned any razorbacks or heavily mechanised armies. I never bought into the power builds of 5th. This was a game with a lot of proxy on my part between two friends exploring the limits of one of their necron flyer lists.

The thing I'm most curious about is how many of you have actually played against a list like the one I faced. Who here has actually played a game of 6th against a list of less than 2000 points with at least 7 or 8 flyers in?

IJW
20-07-2012, 10:12
The majority of the last few responses are incredibly insulting, negative and unhelpful.

I tend to agree, although reading your OP I'm at a loss as to why you thought/hoped close combat would be more powerful.

Regarding the game against the Necrons, I think a lot of that was due to Necrons having gone back to being the ultimate vehicle-killing army and most of your list's punch being vehicles. Flyers only added to that problem.

Plus it's arguable whether he could have kept all the Necron Warriors in reserve, it's only transports that have to enter via Deep Strike that don't count the transported units.

mughi3
20-07-2012, 10:36
Privateer Press, here I come.

Nah you need to come over to a better game and join us over at corvis belle's infinity. great rules, refreshing mechanics, wonderful minis and a great big lump of actual strategy that includes more than rolling buckets of dice.

Shadow Lord
20-07-2012, 10:41
@Artemis360: you do have a point that facing that many flyers in 1 army is a very terrifying prospect and is something that is hard to deal with. I understand that it's not nice to see people making hurtfull remarks on your behalf, but you do have to be honest with yourself and admit that your original post was a bit of a ragequit as well thus you were running the risk of receiving such remarks...at no point did you ask advice to your fellow gamers, you just said: this is wrong, i hate it, i'm quitting..PP here i come...
Reading all the posts I've noticed that some ppl asked you if you knew what army your were going to face and why you didn't do this or that? Maybe you should give them a response why you made the decisions you made so they can maybe help out?
Tbh, I don't like your mates list but I sure don't like your list as well...I know it was tailored for tournie-play so I understand why you made such list but...hey...6th edition has made a mockery out of some of those lists and maybe you weren't prepared yet...Now you know how your friend plays, just challenge him again and kick his butt thx to the advice given by other players (not me tho, never faced flyers in my 6th gaming experience so far...lucky me!)

Bartali
20-07-2012, 12:17
This is really bizarre. A bunch of people telling me I am clearly basing this on theory and haven't really played fliers. Well, it seems that some of you are the ones who havent played fliers so i'll give you the benefit of my experience. Here's a brief battle report of a game I played.

My list:

Corteaz

6x henchmen squads (3 multimelta servitors, 2 warriors, twin-linked lascannon razorback)
3x psyfle dreadnauts
2x stormravens (hurricane bolters, assault cannon, psybolt ammo, multimelta)

His list:

2x destroyer necron lords, tachyon arrows, warscythes

6x 5 necron warriors in night scythe transports

3x doom scythes.

This was tournament practice with my buddy and I built a list to give him the hardest time I could so that we could see if he really did have a good shot at 1st place. We set up with 2 pieces of area terrain in each corner and some high ruined walls dotted around.

Deployment:
Destroyer lords both deploy out of sight behind some ruins. Everything else in reserve since theyre flyers and have to be.

I deploy all my dreads and razorbacks spread out across my deployment zone, grabbing cover where I can.

Turn 1: He hides.

My turn 1: I move up closer to the middle of the board, pop smoke on most of my units. I can't draw LOS to his destroyer lords.

Turn 2: 7 out of 9 flyers arrive, including 2 of the doom scythes. Some come on at an extreme angle in order to bring their fire to bear on the closer units. 1 deathray insta-pops a dreadnaut and takes a hullpoint from a razorback, it's destructors take the rest of the hull points from the razorback.
The two destroyer lords come out of cover and fire their tachyon arrows. One dreadnaut insta-pops, another is immobilised.
Another razorback is hull-pointed to death by destructors (getting hitting with all 4 shots, one being a 6, so 6 hits altogether).
Anyway, this goes on until 2 out of 3 dreads are dead, along with 4 out of 6 razorbacks.

My turn 2: Both stormravens arrive. One multimeltas a doomscythe to death with machine spirit and steals a hullpoint from another with all its psybolt fire. The other stormraven takes down another nightscythe. Most of my multimelta servitors miss and one is cover saved. Another manages to put an immobilised result on a nightscythe, which of course doesnt kill it. Another nightscythe suffers weapon destroyed from one of the two lascannon razorbacks. The remaining rifledread rolls 3, 4, 5, 5 and thus misses.

Death toll is now: 1 nightscythe, 1 doomscythe - to - 4 razorbacks, 2 rifledreads and a few henchmen dying to explode results.

Turn 3: The rest of his stuff arrives. Doesn't requir much description except to say that both stormravens die (due to being hit with a bunch of twin-linked tesla and a deathray from the remaining doom scythe. The last dreadnaut dies, along with 1 more razorback. He also drops off some of his necron warriors who are about to rapid fire some of my infantry.

With the deathtoll now being 10 out of 11 of my vehicles and me having no way to shoot his flyers down, I concede.


Now, maybe you don't agree with my list or the way I played, but if you think a full flier build can't take your army apart, then you obviously haven't played a necron flier list. I still haven't played a vendetta spam and I don't think I'm going to.

Edit: I also want to say that I wouldn't ever normally run this list. It was just for tournament practice. The razorbacks, corteaz and the henchmen were all proxies.

Your list isn't great, but regardless of this, how do you think you would of faired if you'd gone first instead of second ?

Bannik
20-07-2012, 12:40
"9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army."

so basically some people will spam a certain list and you think its unfair, if someone spams a flyer list YOU spam an anti flyer list heck a flak tank army will destroy most flyers and they are cheaper than most flyers and good against troops as well...

I really do not see how this is a problem.

chromedog
20-07-2012, 13:08
I just switch games whenever 40k becomes disappointing to me.
(I've ALWAYS had an alternate game to play apart from a GW one. Because it ALWAYS finds a way to disappoint me.)

Currently, I play Infinity. I also have the "Tomorrow's War" rules (which has garnered some interest from other equally disillusioned 40k players in my area). TW gives us an out for our 40k models.
Infinity gives me an out because the gameplay is completely different to 40k, and the statistical curves because of both the d20 and Critical hit mechanic make it this way.
Fortunately, I have a club that learned to look for games outside the GW box.

Zogash
20-07-2012, 13:10
"9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army."

so basically some people will spam a certain list and you think its unfair, if someone spams a flyer list YOU spam an anti flyer list heck a flak tank army will destroy most flyers and they are cheaper than most flyers and good against troops as well...

I really do not see how this is a problem.

Not everyone plays Guard, y'know... or is willing/can afford to drop 100+ bucks into an allied contingent (if they are even allowed to ally with IG, that is) that they may not even like.

What are Orks supposed to do, for example? They have lootas, right, but they need 6es to hit and then 5s to glance - and they die horribly when tesla'ed by up to 9 fliers. Dakkajets might work, but they a) don't get their +1BS bonus from Fighter Ace against fliers (which is just plain silly), b) need 6es to glance, and c) get outmaneuvered due to their 45 firing cone (compared to Necron's 360...). All that, and, with first-turn assaulting gone, they do not have the capability to wipe out what's on the board before the birds come flying.
Face it, given the current AA situation, most armies just cannot field enough firepower to deal with that many fliers, especially Necron ones - they don't suffer as much from maneuverability issues as other fliers do, since their weapons are turret-mounted (360).

IJW
20-07-2012, 13:17
Fighta Ace gives the BS bonus against both Skimmers and Flyers.

Crimson Reaver
20-07-2012, 13:29
My first couple of games were pretty disappointing as well, mainly because one of my more regular opponents did far better out of the rule changes than I did, so what used to be a tight match up is now slanted in his favour. It's annoying that I now have to remodel quite a few things in my army to account for this, so for the moment I'm on a bit of a downer with 40K having been pretty enthused about the new rules.

Also, my Eldar army got hit with the Nerf Bat for the second edition in a row (I like Grav Tanks, stop keep making them worse GW!) and with a new Eldar Codex in the works, there's no point trying to rejig the army as the new list might flip everything round again, at least all my Marines are still reasonably competent (looking at you Howling Banshees!)

I played a pick-up game of Infinity earlier this week and was really impressed by the general speed of play and feeling like I had more things to do with my troops, and it felt less like playing "Rock Paper Scissors" than the 40K games, so I might do that for a bit. I hated 3rd Edition and didn't play for a while, but came back in a bit later on, just need to go recover some enthusiasm.

Haravikk
20-07-2012, 13:50
There are quite a lot of options for taking out enemy flyers; allied units, fortifications with anti-air, or even just massed fire at a high enough Strength. With Snap Shooting I think you can easily enough get a bunch of things firing together, without any extra penalty since you'd be hitting on 6's anyway.

Since flyers have fairly restricted movement it's not too hard to put them in a position where the only things they can shoot at are far from ideal; a vehicle with smoke launchers can make some good impromptu cover against a flyer, and isn't a bad use of a transport once the troops are delivered.


I do agree that combat units are a bit… meh, it's not as if shooting was in need of boosting and yet it's now even more difficult to get combat units where they're needed. Especially with vehicles more vulnerable; while I support such a change absolutely, it leaves combat troops a bit stuffed if a tank is the only good way to get them anywhere.

DruidNei
20-07-2012, 14:15
I had a long list of complaints about 40k rules in 5th, and I feel that GW changed those issues into new ones. I must say I'm quite disappointed with new rules, from flyers to wound allocation (hull points are a +). If only my group liked Infinity miniatures I would be happy playing it.

I might recommend to OP finding a group of like-minded people and throwing all the flyer rules away (or allies, fortifications, whatever). It shouldn't be so hard to find even a pick up game "without the new stuff". No one in my group feels that jetfighters have any place in a small 40k battlefield and we will be happy not fielding them. It's not 6th ed proper, but it's a way to still have some fun.

Zinch
20-07-2012, 14:29
Not everyone plays Guard, y'know... or is willing/can afford to drop 100+ bucks into an allied contingent (if they are even allowed to ally with IG, that is) that they may not even like.

What are Orks supposed to do, for example? They have lootas, right, but they need 6es to hit and then 5s to glance - and they die horribly when tesla'ed by up to 9 fliers. Dakkajets might work, but they a) don't get their +1BS bonus from Fighter Ace against fliers (which is just plain silly), b) need 6es to glance, and c) get outmaneuvered due to their 45 firing cone (compared to Necron's 360...). All that, and, with first-turn assaulting gone, they do not have the capability to wipe out what's on the board before the birds come flying.
Face it, given the current AA situation, most armies just cannot field enough firepower to deal with that many fliers, especially Necron ones - they don't suffer as much from maneuverability issues as other fliers do, since their weapons are turret-mounted (360).

Orks?
Just put a real ork horde on the table like old good times (100 miniatures or more) and laugh at your opponent 9 vehicles and 30 warriors... A TL Tesla destructor averages 5,3 hits. With 5+ armour/cover save that means 2,96 unsaved wounds on average on any ork unit... he only need to shot to your 200 points unit with his WHOLE army to kil it (and this is a very hard mission to acomplish with fliers and their movility)

Also, Orks just get a -1 to hit to fliers, it's not the end of the world... Just assault anithing that comes outside of those vehicles and you'll be fine


@OP: Your list was VERY VERY bad against a necron flier spam (seriously, VERY bad). Just that. Necron fliers spam is ace at killing vehicles, but has nothing or few things against horde units or any unit on area terrain going to ground and 5/6 of the missions are decided by objectives... I'm not saying is your fault, but taking a highly competitive list from 5th won't make the cut on 6th...

dtjunkie19
20-07-2012, 15:13
Orks?
Just put a real ork horde on the table like old good times (100 miniatures or more) and laugh at your opponent 9 vehicles and 30 warriors... A TL Tesla destructor averages 5,3 hits. With 5+ armour/cover save that means 2,96 unsaved wounds on average on any ork unit... he only need to shot to your 200 points unit with his WHOLE army to kil it (and this is a very hard mission to acomplish with fliers and their movility)


Actually that wouldn't be that difficult of a situation for the necron player. As soon as his flyers come on, he will focus on 1 horde unit a turn, using his mobility (and his 360 degree weapon arc) to make sure you get very few shots in return. Once most of the units are dead, he can drop warriors to rapid fire the rest to death while contesting/claiming objectives.

So perhaps the OPs list isn't the optimal list to bring against flyer spam. But regardless, its an extremely frustrating force to be up against without a doubt.

Edit: If you've ever played BFG, forced movement before turning and limited turn arcs do require planning on the part of the player, but can easily be managed.

Zinch
20-07-2012, 15:37
Actually that wouldn't be that difficult of a situation for the necron player. As soon as his flyers come on, he will focus on 1 horde unit a turn, using his mobility (and his 360 degree weapon arc) to make sure you get very few shots in return. Once most of the units are dead, he can drop warriors to rapid fire the rest to death while contesting/claiming objectives.

So perhaps the OPs list isn't the optimal list to bring against flyer spam. But regardless, its an extremely frustrating force to be up against without a doubt.

Edit: If you've ever played BFG, forced movement before turning and limited turn arcs do require planning on the part of the player, but can easily be managed.

I agree it's a very boring and fustrating force to play against (just like a lot of competitive lists, but that's another topic) but just DON'T compare random movement in BFG with fliers move. Fliers are a LOT harder to move and still have LOS to any meaningful enemy unit.

The necron player will have 3 (at most) fliers with a 360 weapon. Only 3 weapons in all the army that could kill potentialy 5-6 enemy miniatures. That's all. The other weapons have a 45 line of sight. The situation you described is REALY hard to do in a real game, and in the rare battle it happens you are comiting the firepower of your WHOLE army on a 200 points unit...

Carnage
20-07-2012, 15:39
That's the problem...almost NOTHING is optimal for fighting a flyer force. The only thing that even works ATM is fortifications, hydras (IG only), other flyers (not available to everyone), and either twin-linked or massive torrent firepower of the anti-vehicle sort. Building a TAC list capable of dealing with the necron airport list is going to be frustrating until skyfire and other flyers are more wide spread and has me scratching my head at the moment.

Daedalus81
20-07-2012, 15:50
The majority of the last few responses are incredibly insulting, negative and unhelpful. If someone says they have a problem and expresses how aggrovated they feel about it and your first response is to enjoy the opportunity to be as offensive as possible, your response is valueless - basically wasted bandwidth. If I'd read a post like this by someone else, I'd probably have thought about it and written up any tactics I could think of for them to use. Certainly I wouldn't just say they played terribly without any constructive input on how to improve their game. It's stuff like this that makes threads not useful. Most of all, it certainly doesn't show that you have any note-worthy skills yourself.

And as for any venomous comments made as a response to what you might consider to be someone playing a ******* 5th ed style list, as I stated before, I don't own or have ever owned any razorbacks or heavily mechanised armies. I never bought into the power builds of 5th. This was a game with a lot of proxy on my part between two friends exploring the limits of one of their necron flyer lists.

The thing I'm most curious about is how many of you have actually played against a list like the one I faced. Who here has actually played a game of 6th against a list of less than 2000 points with at least 7 or 8 flyers in?

I think its because there is limited tolerance when you base assumptions upon one game; using a 5th edition list; against an army built around popping vehicles. Perhaps a little more introspection would satiate us.

If, say, you came here and said, "Flyers are a problem for me - here are my thoughts on how to deal with them. Do you think this will work? What are your experiences?"

But instead we have - "I can't play the same army I had! ME QUIT!" - to paraphrase. It gets old and exasperating.

Shooting got better to balance against some pretty brutal close combat. When a combat model gets 3+ attacks and gets to attack in BOTH parts of the turn when in combat it quickly swings the pendulum the other way. A piddly few extra casualties from overwatch or snap-shot heavy weapons (those that can) are not game breaking.

Now - your buddies list. Looks great when he gets first turn, but he isn't taking first place in a tournament once people learn to adapt.

RandomThoughts
20-07-2012, 16:07
More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

I might be wrong, but wasn't fifth shooty vehicles > assault infantry > shooty infantry?

So, GW nerfed transports and improved the odds of shooty infantry against assault infantry. Right?

As much feathers of my own I haveto plug with GW, this one actually seems like a good move.

Doesn't change the fact that my Eldar assault infantry is staying home on the shelf for the moment, but that will probably be remedied when the new codex brings them back into the current edition.

Scaryscarymushroom
20-07-2012, 16:17
If I'd read a post like this by someone else, I'd probably have thought about it and written up any tactics I could think of for them to use.

You want tactics? Here's what I can think: The best way to deal with Necron Flyer cheese is to assign more focus to your warjacks. :evilgrin:

In all seriousness, though. If you look through any of the tactica pages you get a brief description of why unit 'x' is no good and why unity 'y' is much better. And then if you ask for tactics, they'll say "change out unit 'x' for unit 'y'." Which is essentially what all of these responses just did. "What did you expect, bringing tanks to the game? You should have brought more things with a 'W' stat. With guns!" :rolleyes:

In my opinion, the level of strategic thinking offered by 40k is marginal. It mostly boils down to target priority and approximate location. If you want strategy, play a different game. :shifty:

SideshowLucifer
20-07-2012, 17:26
Those necron fliers can not hold objectives, they will not be firing most of the game, and a single tesla destructer doesn't do that much damage to want to rage quit. I'd fear more Annihilation barges then I would the scythes. Fliers die when you throw shots at them. In an all flier army like that, try shooting them, otherwise, ignore them and win the game.
Aside from that, you brought a knife to a gun fight. Never bring a mech army against necrons and expect to have vehicles past turn two.
Assault against his army list was viable since he had 5 man units which will die to a stiff breeze and no courts. The problem is you need larger units to make it into CC and wipe them off the table. Also, why complain when an objective could have given a unit skyfire to shoot those things down as well.

I honestly do not see any viability to the flier spam lists for necrons. They might be hard to kill, but they can not win the scenarios and they don't get to line up shots very well against a smart player. I average two rounds of shooting with my scythes. I use them as quick delivery trasports for my real threats which are the cheesy deathmarks w/ dispair crypteks. Your list would have fared no better at all against my list which only uses two fliers.

Battleworthy Arts
20-07-2012, 19:01
You want tactics? Here's what I can think: The best way to deal with Necron Flyer cheese is to assign more focus to your warjacks. :evilgrin:

In all seriousness, though. If you look through any of the tactica pages you get a brief description of why unit 'x' is no good and why unity 'y' is much better. And then if you ask for tactics, they'll say "change out unit 'x' for unit 'y'." Which is essentially what all of these responses just did. "What did you expect, bringing tanks to the game? You should have brought more things with a 'W' stat. With guns!" :rolleyes:

In my opinion, the level of strategic thinking offered by 40k is marginal. It mostly boils down to target priority and approximate location. If you want strategy, play a different game. :shifty:

I guess I dont understand this cliche. Is it a hipster thing? I play both games, and do just as much thinking in both. I dont find Warmachine particularly more engrossing... its figure out a combo, then try to fire off that combo before your opponent does. Im not knocking it, its certainly different from 40k... but none of these miniatures games are going to equip for you leading actual troops into actual battle. These are toy soldier games. The have their own tricks, foibles, and flaws. Infinity too. Its got its neat little niche, and its a decent game, but its got some ridiculous in there too.

It seems to me that some people just get frustrated quickly, based on preconceived notions, and 40k is heavy with those. A new game will always feel refreshing because its a blank slate, and you are more willing to let the game be the game. Give that same courtesy to 40k and you might find yourself having a good time in multiple different games, rather than treating them like political parties.

As for flyers... they really arent that big of a deal. I play necrons, and cant justify more than 3 at 2500. Nightscythes as gunship dont damage as much as a unit of immortals laying down consistent tesla on a target. When someone spams them, take those snapshots. Anything twin linked will hit more than you think.

Scaryscarymushroom
20-07-2012, 20:29
-snip-

Ok. I'm taking off my sarcastic hat now. Let's see if I can make any sense out of what I just said. I definitely want to do a good job of explaining myself because I don't think of dissatisfaction with a game being cliche or a 'hipster' attitude.

As far as getting 'frustrated quickly, based on preconceived notions,' perhaps 40k isn't so heavy as you think on the people who get frustrated because of preconceived notions. Maybe they get frustrated in a timely manner based on notions that are simply conceived through their own rational exposure to certain rules.

Remember that people don't have to like what other people like. If he doesn't like flyers, shouting "N00B! HATER! YOU DON'T ACTUALLY PLAY!" won't help anything and it won't convince him to like flyers.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm putting the sarcastic hat back on. Life is just more fun that way. :angel:

According to Google:
Strategy
1. A plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.
...

Tactics
1. An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

So I was confusing some terms there. Armed with these definitions I'm ready to continue explaining why I feel the way I do, and why I think the OP has every right to stop playing 40k if he would rather play something else and why I think it's ridiculous to say "OP doesn't know what he's talking about. 40k is not broken," in response to the statement "I am disappointed with 6th for these reasons." (Opinion alert! Sound the alarm!)

40k is very good at encouraging players to develop a strategy. We call it List-Building. In 6th, running a mechanized army is a bad strategy. Running an assault infantry army isn't as good a strategy as the OP wishes it were. And running at least 1-2 flyers seems to be a pretty good idea in many circumstances. A player can have a bad strategy and excellent tactics, and they'll lose. That's what makes it disappointing. And sure, you can't expect anything good to come from bringing a knife to a gunfight. If the point of this game were to prepare players to lead armies, we could entertain this idea.

But this is a freaking game. Why not make any option fun? Fun's the whole point, isn't it?

However, once your list is built, the tactics are really straightforward: Simply implement your strategy. Infiltrate your infiltrators, get your choppas in close combat, harass your opponents with hit & run or Jump/Strike/Jump if you have the option, put your heavy weapons where they can see lots of stuff to shoot, put your lightly armored troops in transports to give them some extra protection and roll dice for a few hours. The game practically plays itself, IMO. It's just a matter of rolling dice because that lucky '6' is bound to show up sooner or later to determine the winner. I've never thought to myself "H'm. I was going to put those genestealers over on that side, but now that 'x' has happened, I think I'll bring them in over here instead." A very small number of dice rolls is significant enough to make me change my mind about where to place my minis and what to shoot. Usually those same dice rolls simply make me think, "well this is officially hopeless. Good game."

So this is why I made that joking comment about how to deal with Necron flyers. Because the only two things he could have done differently in order to even have a fighting chance are 1) rebuild his list, or 2) get lucky. Which is really a bummer. I hate games that play themselves. I like list-building. But personally I look for games that reward players for being resourceful and daring with what they bring to the table.

On to Warmachine. Perhaps (most likely) you and I aren't playing warmachine the same way. I recently picked up a cygnar starter set and I've played many games of Warmachine now with the quickstart rules. The quickstart rules of all things give me a more fulfilling gaming experience than I usually have with 40k. As a result, games of 40k have tapered off. Warmachine games are on the rise. The objective is simple, and there are many ways for a single battlegroup to get there. The MVP for each game is different(!) and most of the time winning is a matter of models working together(!) rather than a bunch of individual stuff doing the best it can. With the quickstart rules, WM offers no list-building. But that's ok. Because where I can't make a battlegroup that's all about shooting or one that's all about smashing or magic or debuffs (or whatever), it offers me a tactical flexibility that I don't enjoy in 40k. There's actually some reactive playing going on. My opponent's caster uses a certain spell or a feat and it forces me to think rather than going, "Oh well. The objective is to kill the caster. So I'm just going to mundanely push minis towards it and roll some dice until it dies. Hopefully my opponent doesn't do the same."

But enough about Warmachine. Let's talk about why the OP is disappointed with 6th. :evilgrin:

Scribe of Khorne
20-07-2012, 20:37
And your not using your vehicles to block movement (while they last! Hull Points are damn punishing) or small units to suck up an assault protecting other units? Or placement + wound allocation to kill the special weapons?

I've play the other systems, its just not 'cool' to like 40K, you have to be that guy, the hipster, who trumpets warmahordes, and malifaux, while trashing 40K. Thats why he called you a hipster from where I am sitting.

Some kind of spam looks hard to beat right now, we shall see if it holds true. 6th however as a system? I find it hard to not see it as an improvement over 5th.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
20-07-2012, 21:10
Personally, I just see 6th as another one step forward, one to the side, one backward...what the 40k cycle has been since the end of 2nd.

I would advise the OP to try a few more games and then see if he wants to re-build his lists for 6th, or get into another game. If he does, and is a competitive player who enjoys very clear rules, balanced releases and few disagreements, I'd go for WM/H. If he wants the crazy combos, small-group action with a very amusing card system instead of dice, go for Malifaux. If he wants small-group airsoft with a steep learning curve and lots of terrain as well as a very cool and different approach than he is used to, go Infinity. If he wants extremely cool miniatures and a leap of faith, go Dropzone Commander ;) (the rules aren't out yet). I don' t think the OP would like Spartan's offerings, from what he writes.

Those (Malifauc and DZC excepted as the latter isn't out yet even if I have it on preorder and Malifaux turned out to be a bit too much WM Mk1 for me, although the game is fun) are the games I regularily play and can offer some experience on. Infinity and Malifaux could easily be combined with other games due to the low model count, but you will need someone to coach you to avoid dud purchases for your playstyle.

Scaryscarymushroom
20-07-2012, 21:11
And your not using your vehicles to block movement (while they last! Hull Points are damn punishing) You mean, use my vehicles to do what vehicles are there to do? :evilgrin:


or small units to suck up an assault protecting other units? You mean, use my small units to do what exactly what they're there to do? :evilgrin:


Or placement + wound allocation to kill the special weapons? You mean, do what I would have done anyway? :evilgrin:


I've play the other systems, its just not 'cool' to like 40K, you have to be that guy, the hipster, who trumpets warmahordes, and malifaux, while trashing 40K.

Uhh. Dude. If I were a hipster, like, you wouldn't even know. :cool:
I'd be (http://www.comfychairgames.com/home.php) tru (http://www.bucksurdu.com/Buck_Surdu/G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T..html)mpeting any (http://www.dp9.com/) one (http://aliendungeon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/announcing-fanticide.html) of (http://www.hawkwargames.com/pages/dropzone-commander)these (http://www.zenitminiatures.es/en/) games. (http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/empire_landing.php) Malifaux and Warmahordes are as outdated as Redfoo's lensless glasses.


And before anyone asks... Now I'm just being difficult on purpose.


6th however as a system? I find it hard to not see it as an improvement over 5th.

:o Not to threadjack. But I find the new Morale and regrouping rules to be somewhat objectionable. A step backwards, so to speak. And that's just my opinion and I know it. I don't expect most people to agree, but it (in addition to some other things) is enough for me to stop playing. I have a lot of my own ideas about what Warhammer should be, though.

Scribe of Khorne
21-07-2012, 00:30
I've been trolling and trolled since the dawn of time, your going to have to work harder. ;)

Everyone has their own idea's of whats best, we are at the end of the day a bunch of opinionated nerds so its to be expected. Did 6th fix more then it broke for you and your own misguided opinions? If so, enjoy, if not (for you or me or bob) then quit, its quite simple and we can talk around each other forever.

Scaryscarymushroom
21-07-2012, 05:45
your own misguided opinions?
Now. That wasn't very polite. :p


If so, enjoy, if not (for you or me or bob) then quit, its quite simple and we can talk around each other forever.

I'm glad we agree on this. Now excuse me while I go waste someone else's time with my misguided opinions. :shifty:

FlashGordon
21-07-2012, 13:09
I rued the day i would see someone actually considering trolling something to be proud of... -_-