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Ratbeast
21-07-2012, 02:22
While recently getting back into 40k, one things that gets me is theres not enough aliens.... majority of armies are power armoured.... do you think if GW added say 3 more different types of xenos the game be more interesting? i would personally like to see some more aliens, not just opposites to current armies...

megatrons2nd
21-07-2012, 02:27
While recently getting back into 40k, one things that gets me is theres not enough aliens.... majority of armies are power armoured.... do you think if GW added say 3 more different types of xenos the game be more interesting? i would personally like to see some more aliens, not just opposites to current armies...

I have been saying the same thing for years. Problem is the release cycle is so slow they can't even update all the armies before they redo the Marines at the start of a new edition. It will be nice to see them skip them this time, but I'm still betting that the marines will be one of the first 3 updated armies. I'll even be nice and not call Chaos Marines, Marines.


Please let me be surprised.

TheDoctor
21-07-2012, 02:28
psh, why play xenos when you can play power armor?

Want a fast army? Play Blood Angels!
Want a CC army? Play Blood Angels or Space Wolves!
Want a shooty army? Play any variant of Space Marines!

*sarcasm off*

While I would love to see more alien races, I suspect GW would never do that, mostly because pushing Space Marines some more is a sure way to get profit. And the current alien races we have don't get enough players because GW is too busy pushing Space Marines.

Ah well, at least I can gear my all-comers Eldar towards killing Space Marines (like I've done for the past 5 years), and only get screwed 1 game out of 10.

Athlan na Dyr
21-07-2012, 02:43
While recently getting back into 40k, one things that gets me is theres not enough aliens.... majority of armies are power armoured.... do you think if GW added say 3 more different types of xenos the game be more interesting? i would personally like to see some more aliens, not just opposites to current armies...

To be perfectly frank, I'd be happy if they did some of the better (a matter of opinion of course) parts of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Inquisition. I do understand that there are Inquisitors in codex GK, but the background behind them and army focus that was more prevalent before is really lacking, which is a shame as I find the highly individualistic, morbidly powerful and frequently loopy nature of Inquisitors and their various entourages one of the most interesting subsections of the great lumbering behemoth of the Imperium.
As for the Mechanicum, it's pretty much sci-fi+ with less understanding. To me, big experimental weaponry held together by faith, futuristic duck tape and the manual chanted in binary is very cool as are the 'mech-ed up' humans. Big possibilities for great conversions and fantastic looking plastic kits.

The great thing with the above is that there would be a solid basis in both background and design direction to reduce the effort in coming out with a finished product and slotting them into the 40k timeline. Another Xenos faction would jar or be relegated to a fringe existance (such as Tau or Tyranids). That said, as a Xenos player I wouldn't mind something new coming out.

Of course, with the release schedule at its current pace this probably isn't the best of ideas to cram more factions in and the chances of GW reducing the number of different Space Marine armies is so low as to be laughable.

TimLeeson
21-07-2012, 02:52
as much as I like 40k, this is my only complaint really - allthough I would say I am also annoyed that all the aliens bar tyranids are humanoid, but even the nids are mostly legged. Theres nothing that slithers, floats or slimes sadly - I guess these things were the primary reason I did Enslavers and Ulumeathi and encourge others to do "minor xeno race" armies - doing it yourself is really the only way to give some balance realistically. I would say anyone else that feels similar should do something about it and try converting up their own army. It is a lot of fun and very rewarding.

If GW themselves ever did something about this, I would think Forge World would be the best way as it wouldnt clog up the already slow release schedule (which seems to be most peoples reasoning for not wanting more armies, which is totally fair enough really). Shame Forge World doesnt seem to have any interest in doing that with 40k as I liked what they did with their fantasy line by adding chaos dwarfs, fimir ect.

Charistoph
21-07-2012, 02:58
TOf course, with the release schedule at its current pace this probably isn't the best of ideas to cram more factions in and the chances of GW reducing the number of different Space Marine armies is so low as to be laughable.

And here lies the rub. If we didn't have 4 of the Space Marine codecies, we would probably have a Sisters book right now, at the least. We might even have room for 2-3 xenos or other Imperium institutions in the mix.

althathir
21-07-2012, 02:58
I think the ally rules really increase the chances of seeing something new. There is a fairly big risk in releasing a completely new force, and honestly there are a ton of people waiting for updates right now. Small mini-dexes that can ally with multiple fractions could be a nice way for GW to test the waters, and also update xenos books (indirectly).

Steinhardt
21-07-2012, 03:04
I've actually been impressed by the volume of Xenos that appear in the Horus Heresy (put off reading it for ages, currently up to Mechanicum). I think that they would probably need to include at least 1 or 2 more races to balance it out... Though rumour rumblings do seem to indicate they may go down the path of creating Alien ally factions rather than full forces, which is a bit of a cop out but I wouldn't mind.

Kakapo42
21-07-2012, 03:23
I for one think that the problem is not so much that there are not enough alien factions, but rather that there are too many space marine factions. As it stands, the time GW takes to update many codexes is extremely long, with the various different space marine factions given priority over others. If there were fewer of them, or GW released new army books more quickly, then I would not mind seeing more alien factions.

Athlan na Dyr
21-07-2012, 04:10
And here lies the rub. If we didn't have 4 of the Space Marine codecies, we would probably have a Sisters book right now, at the least. We might even have room for 2-3 xenos or other Imperium institutions in the mix.


I for one think that the problem is not so much that there are not enough alien factions, but rather that there are too many space marine factions. As it stands, the time GW takes to update many codexes is extremely long, with the various different space marine factions given priority over others. If there were fewer of them, or GW released new army books more quickly, then I would not mind seeing more alien factions.

Could we please put off our monthly "Space Marines should have fewer codices" discussion for a few more weeks? The result is a forgone conclusion, with non-Space Marine players generally saying yes whilst Space Marine players and GW espouse the incredible effects that changing the colour of the power armour has on the warrior inside :rolleyes:
To be fair, at least there has been a concerted effort in the Blood Angel and Space Wolf books to create distinctions between them and vanilla marines through unique units or organisation of units (as opposed to colour and special rule x and/or wargear).

As a general question to try and move away from release schedules and marines, if you were designing a hypothetical Xenos race, what stat level would you be aiming for? (for example, would it be GEQ to be horded? MEQ? TEQ? or something else?)

KentishNomad
21-07-2012, 04:16
I would think Forge World would be the best way as it wouldnt clog up the already slow release schedule (which seems to be most peoples reasoning for not wanting more armies, which is totally fair enough really). Shame Forge World doesnt seem to have any interest in doing that with 40k as I liked what they did with their fantasy line by adding chaos dwarfs, fimir ect.

I completely agree, I think it's entirely doable for Forgeworld. However given the amount of time and effort that was needed to squeeze Chaos Dwarves out of them (which were a pre-existing army that already had collectors and only a few unit types) the chances of this ever happening are close to zero.

Charistoph
21-07-2012, 04:46
Could we please put off our monthly "Space Marines should have fewer codices" discussion for a few more weeks? The result is a forgone conclusion, with non-Space Marine players generally saying yes whilst Space Marine players and GW espouse the incredible effects that changing the colour of the power armour has on the warrior inside :rolleyes:
To be fair, at least there has been a concerted effort in the Blood Angel and Space Wolf books to create distinctions between them and vanilla marines through unique units or organisation of units (as opposed to colour and special rule x and/or wargear).

Not when it is a central point of the original question. Why aren't there more xenos armies? It's simply a case of deployment schedule and rates. And to be honest, it doesn't lie entirely upon Space Marines, either. How long was it between codex releases when Fantasy 8th Edition came out? How long has it been since a codex has been released at all (admittedly, the last one was a Xenos that desperately needed it)? The release of the game's Edition also plays a part, as they are not in the habit of releasing codecies/army books during central releases of those Editions (Edition book, which is fair, but Starter Sets?), which is also a concern with the release for LotR that will coincide with the release of the Hobbit later this year.

So, yes, Space Marines and the Release Schedule are a very important part of why there aren't more Xenos armies in Warhammer 40K. I would even suggest that it's integral. Forgeworld is an option that GW has sadly not taken proper advantage of.


As a general question to try and move away from release schedules and marines, if you were designing a hypothetical Xenos race, what stat level would you be aiming for? (for example, would it be GEQ to be horded? MEQ? TEQ? or something else?)

Now that's a good question. How far does one go? Interestingly enough, 40K's counterpart, Fantasy, is far better at having diverse armies.

One race type that would be interesting would be a silicon/crystal-based race like StarCon's Chenjesu or Star Trek's Tholians.

DietDolphin
21-07-2012, 07:14
Another person in the "I've been saying this for years" camp. But the thing to remember is this isn't a sci-fi universe built from the ground up, it's fantasy in space. I think the problem is Eldar and orks dont feel like "Xenos" because they're not really, they're elves and orcs. While I like the idea of Eldar and Orks (especially Orks), it would help if they physically looked "alien"... And it doesn't help that the Necrons are humanoid and actually souls trapped in bodies (like mummies) rather than full blown alien AI.

I definitely think the game could do with 1 more Alien faction (note: "Alien", not "non-marine" like the ad-mech). At the moment we have the Tyranids, Necrons and Tau all just turning up recently, so before that the Imperium were only facing Eldar, who just run anyway, Orks, the galactic nuances and minor xenos factions. 40k really needs a strong cohesive Xenos race that the Imperium has been fighting against since the Great Crusade, some race that justifies all the OTT weaponary and xenophobia of the Imperium for the last 10000+ years.

Nymie_the_Pooh
21-07-2012, 07:28
I'll echo the too humanoid comments. I've always wanted a force that consisted of no bipeds at all but have been too lazy to convert such a faction.

Wishing
21-07-2012, 07:34
Another person in the "I've been saying this for years" camp. But the thing to remember is this isn't a sci-fi universe built from the ground up, it's fantasy in space. I think the problem is Eldar and orks dont feel like "Xenos" because they're not really, they're elves and orcs. While I like the idea of Eldar and Orks (especially Orks), it would help if they physically looked "alien"... And it doesn't help that the Necrons are humanoid and actually souls trapped in bodies (like mummies) rather than full blown alien AI.

Agreed. The issue of xenos is totally tied up with the issue of the imperium, so they cannot be separated. The issue is that iconic theme of 40k at all levels is not orks, eldar or tau - it is the imperium. The imperium is the core around which 40k revolves. Look at the new 6th ed template set - it is not necron or tyranid themed, it is called "munitorium templates" and is imperium themed. How about the plastic terrain that is sold for 40k? All imperium. Like it or not, from GW's perspective, 40k is the story of humanity in the grim darkness of the far future. The xenos races are just there to add some colour to the edges, they'll always be second in line when it comes to attention and promotion.

Commandojimbob
21-07-2012, 07:37
The thing is there are loads of aliens in 40k but very few outside of the established offer a threat to the status quo - all the armies in 40k are vast in their way but all other alien life forms inhabit relatively small pockets - and pop up from time to time.

Tau represent the best way to introduce new aliens as they actively seek alliances with all - kroot are prime example - are the a big enough stand alone player - no - but a significant allie with Tau makes their exposure much greater

ChaplainCharlie
21-07-2012, 07:43
Well, in a recent interview with games designers they said that 40k has so many armies that any more would be too many. They also lack a niche to fill...

And I have to agree. How would the gaming scene be improved by MORE codexes to get abandoned?
Nah, the great unified Marine Codex is the only solution. Be that it would have to cost as much as five normal dexes but still... ;)

Less armies, ie less codexes, but more variety within the codex. The Tau list could potentially be full of alien gribblies. Just make them troops if led by a local warlord and presto! Not perhaps entirely what people wanted, but IMO a good compromise. In 3rd there was the optional Kroot list, no?

Lord Squidar
21-07-2012, 07:59
I think one sci fi archetype which is not covered b GW is the greys or typical litle green men aliens, the dudes who showed up millions of years ago and built pyramids and abduct old women on farms etc. the closest thing to looks in this regard is the Tau Air caste. I think if they did the old ones as an allied force it would work perfectly and fits in with the theme of 40K. I see the old ones as being the ragged remains of their once glorious race, twisted and mad and using whatever tool they could find to exact revenge on the necrons, which might or might not be chaos as the ultimate weapon, their last invention (just speculation here). I'd give them some heavy psychic powers and make them frail in combat.

snottlebocket
21-07-2012, 08:32
I always lumped the marines into two categories. Loyal and Traitor. Who cares that there's a whole rainbow of them. Looking at the online store 7 out of 14 armies are xenos. Four of of those armies are loyalist chapters so if you lump all armies together it would be pretty easy to claim that 7 out of 10 armies are xenos.

You have orks, necrons, eldar, tyranids, demons, tau and dark eldar vs marines, sisters and guard. I don't think 40k has a xenos shortage.

Balerion
21-07-2012, 09:02
As a general question to try and move away from release schedules and marines, if you were designing a hypothetical Xenos race, what stat level would you be aiming for? (for example, would it be GEQ to be horded? MEQ? TEQ? or something else?)
Generally speaking, I'm a fan of WHFB <--> 40K crossover, so I would start by looking for untapped analogues from the much richer WHFB army stable. Skaven and Ogre Kingdoms would be the foremost choices.

The Skaven trademark of funky (and malfunctioning) tech could be a big theme, but it would kind of step on the toes of the 40K Orks, so it would have to be expanded. There's room for another army with few/no vehicles, and they could be compensated by having tons of infiltrating/scouting/DSing options, beasts, and fleet. Obviously GEQ and hordey. There's a risk they could come off as Orks + Tyranids, but that kind of thing matters less and less the more armies get developed for the game... we're already kind of in a paradigm where every list can make a list that looks and feels like another army's trademark.

The Ogre inspiration would produce an entire army of multi-wound models, again with few or no vehicles, and possibly MEQ-based statlines. This would be a good candidate for a non-humanoid race (although I'm somewhat skeptical of how well such an army could do; there's a reason humanoid designs are popular). Expensive models, low model count, access to large amounts of monstrous creatures (maybe with T4 or T5 statlines, to separate them from the current varieties of MCs).

TheDungen
21-07-2012, 09:04
i could see something similar to the turians in mass effect a mighty war driven xenophobic empire, that isnt random like the orks, aren't subtle like the eldar, aren't hopeful like the tau. aren't ancient like the necrons.

a alien faction that basically is the same as the imperium but aliens, a dark reflection of what the imprium is turning into. You could say that they where what the imperium is now when the great crusade happened. the humans pouched them away and they eventually had to flee to survive, but they have consolidated their position and are now more than ready to return and claim their galaxy.

a little less technologically advanced (or a little more) than the imprium, carapace armour standard, 'power armour' dpoig the role for them that the terminators do for the sm.

hashrat
21-07-2012, 09:05
That is one thing I like about the Dark Eldar, they have a few aliens in their army, a reminder that the universe is not split up amongst 30 Astartes chapters and a handfull of alien forces.

I think things like Squats should make a return in Guard Armies, perhaps some other alien mercs could make an appearance in Eldar armies etc, just to add a little colour.
As for a full blown new alien race? Well, it is not like 40K is crowded in that manner, it couldn't hurt.

IAMNOTHERE
21-07-2012, 09:17
For variety I feel GW has added more Xenos over the past 2 years with jokaero and the 3 new species in the deldar dex.

The problem GW have is risk exposure; they can't launch a whole product range without trying it first. Codex Tau is ideal for this with there being a hardcore kroot contingent out there.

I expect to see at least 1 new race when tau get an update and new units for both kroot and vespids.

A.T.
21-07-2012, 09:19
The Ogre inspiration would produce an entire army of multi-wound models, again with few or no vehicles, and possibly MEQ-based statlines. This would be a good candidate for a non-humanoid race (although I'm somewhat skeptical of how well such an army could do; there's a reason humanoid designs are popular).Zoats spring to mind - space centaurs.

Banville
21-07-2012, 09:20
I agree. If it's at all viable, I'm going to do a full on Kroot army.

What about the Hrud as a viable nemesis to the Imperium? They seem to crop up a lot and from all accounts are pretty beefy and sinister?

Cthell
21-07-2012, 09:52
I'd imagine the introduction of Loaxtl (sp?) would be popular, especially amongst the traitor-guard players. An entire army of beasts would be an interesting mechanic, and whilst I admit they are four-limbed, they are at least quadrapedal rather than bipedal

Jogi
21-07-2012, 09:53
I would imagine from GW's point of view it is a hell of an undertaking to release a totally new race. You have to have the initial idea, come up with enough background to fill out the race and indeed a whole Codex, model design, rules, balance, then produce the whole range of models, box art etc. This amongst all the other 40k updates, not to mention WHFB and LOTR stuff that is going on as well, just to have a race that they would hope to be played by enough people to cover the cost of all of this. Especially nowadays where it feels accounts are looked at as much as the hobby (not just GW, a lot of companies have to work this way) GW would have to be as certain as they can be that it is worth their while to do all of this.

As for most of the races being humanoid, it is due down to the majority of people wanting to play something that they can relate to, especially if they are new to the hobby, it's the same reason that we don't see many BL books written from the alien perspective, it's hard to get into their mindset and truly understand their motives/feelings.

It would be great to see a new race come out, I took a break between 2nd & 4th Edition (I think that period was called 3rd Edition but don't hold me to that) and as such missed the launch of the Dark Eldar (only ever speculated before), the Necrons (isn't that the android from Space Crusade?) and the Tau (Ok where did that one come from?) but it was great to see these new ideas and models that gave the universe more detail than ever before. I'm sure GW could do it again. Maybe with the allies option, the idea of mini-dex's and a smaller range of models may become viable so that a race that may not fill a full codex or is in design hell may actually see the light of day.

snottlebocket
21-07-2012, 10:49
Generally speaking, I'm a fan of WHFB <--> 40K crossover, so I would start by looking for untapped analogues from the much richer WHFB army stable. Skaven and Ogre Kingdoms would be the foremost choices.

The Skaven trademark of funky (and malfunctioning) tech could be a big theme, but it would kind of step on the toes of the 40K Orks, so it would have to be expanded. There's room for another army with few/no vehicles, and they could be compensated by having tons of infiltrating/scouting/DSing options, beasts, and fleet. Obviously GEQ and hordey. There's a risk they could come off as Orks + Tyranids, but that kind of thing matters less and less the more armies get developed for the game... we're already kind of in a paradigm where every list can make a list that looks and feels like another army's trademark.

The Ogre inspiration would produce an entire army of multi-wound models, again with few or no vehicles, and possibly MEQ-based statlines. This would be a good candidate for a non-humanoid race (although I'm somewhat skeptical of how well such an army could do; there's a reason humanoid designs are popular). Expensive models, low model count, access to large amounts of monstrous creatures (maybe with T4 or T5 statlines, to separate them from the current varieties of MCs).

40k has ogres and skaven. Ogryns are one of the sanctioned subhumans that the imperium allows to live because they're useful.

While not actual ratmen, the hrud are a tribal species of scavengers and slave keepers that tend to infest area's near human cities and sometimes space ships. While physically different the Hrud are basically 40k's sneaky, tunnel dwelling, poison favoring, warp using sentient vermin. The imperium wipes them out wherever they are found but there always seem to be more. They also seem to have mastered some kind of tech that allows them to create warp tunnels to move between places which seems to explain how Hrud infestations seem to pop up over and over.

panic_puppet
21-07-2012, 10:57
I'm inclined to be charitable...5th edition was the time of the Imperium with 6 of 9 released codices (counting Sisters of Battle, if not its 5 from 8) being Imperium. As a result, it seems likely that 6th will contain mostly Xenos codices, with DA and BT being the only imperial forces that didn't get a look in. Even if they do re-do Marines, chances are we'll only see 3 Imperial books this edition at most, freeing the way for the aliens to have their time.

thor2006
21-07-2012, 12:09
Another person in the "I've been saying this for years" camp. But the thing to remember is this isn't a sci-fi universe built from the ground up, it's fantasy in space. I think the problem is Eldar and orks dont feel like "Xenos" because they're not really, they're elves and orcs. While I like the idea of Eldar and Orks (especially Orks), it would help if they physically looked "alien"... And it doesn't help that the Necrons are humanoid and actually souls trapped in bodies (like mummies) rather than full blown alien AI.

I definitely think the game could do with 1 more Alien faction (note: "Alien", not "non-marine" like the ad-mech). At the moment we have the Tyranids, Necrons and Tau all just turning up recently, so before that the Imperium were only facing Eldar, who just run anyway, Orks, the galactic nuances and minor xenos factions. 40k really needs a strong cohesive Xenos race that the Imperium has been fighting against since the Great Crusade, some race that justifies all the OTT weaponary and xenophobia of the Imperium for the last 10000+ years.

And the orks, eldar, and various minor xenos that appear in background that have only thing in common :they are evil and monstrous towards humans even when humans didn't do anything to them, doesn't justify IOM xenophobia?
The reason why not more xeno factions because GW will always make that faction as apocalyptic as possible , and the number of possible apocalyptic xeno specie that populate the Galaxy is full.

AlexHolker
21-07-2012, 12:28
I'm inclined to be charitable...5th edition was the time of the Imperium with 6 of 9 released codices (counting Sisters of Battle, if not its 5 from 8) being Imperium.
It was not the time of the Imperium, it was the time of the Loyalist Space Marines. It's not the Imperial Guard's one codex that caused the problem but the Loyalist Space Marines' four.

All Cing Eye
21-07-2012, 12:36
I think with the new Allies rules and matrix we will see some more xenos races produced, probably by FW. They could even do a Dogs of War Mercenaries type list.

Before Allies, adding a new force would require the creatiion of a whole new Codex, and creating a dozen or so units to go in that book. Or adding them as a unit in the Tau Empire codex. Now with Allies, all they need to do is create 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 Troop, and 1 HS unit and it's done.

ForgottenLore
21-07-2012, 13:47
40k has ogres and skaven. Ogryns are one of the sanctioned subhumans that the imperium allows to live because they're useful.

He wasn't talking about the appearance and background, he was talking about a new race's mechanical identity. How it would be represented in a distinct fashion in the rules. In the case of Ogre Kingdoms inspiration, large, multi-wound basic infantry on 40mm bases. The models themselves wouldn't look anything at all like ogres or ogryn, but might be zoats, or giant walking squids, or lovecraftian elder things.

Veteran Sergeant
21-07-2012, 14:19
the current alien races we have don't get enough players so GW pushes Space Marines, who do sell lots of models.

I fixed it for you.

Games Workshop has tried really hard to push Xenos armies, and people still end up playing Space Marines. And it's because they're humans (essentially), and all the players are humans, so they're easy to "identify with" and easy to root for. Plus, Space Marines are just awesome. There's really no shocker that Space Marines are the most popular army.

But that's the bottom line. Space Marines don't sell more because GW pushes them. Space Marines sell more, so GW looks for ways to exploit that popularity.

megatrons2nd
21-07-2012, 14:45
I fixed it for you.

Games Workshop has tried really hard to push Xenos armies, and people still end up playing Space Marines. And it's because they're humans (essentially), and all the players are humans, so they're easy to "identify with" and easy to root for. Plus, Space Marines are just awesome. There's really no shocker that Space Marines are the most popular army.

But that's the bottom line. Space Marines don't sell more because GW pushes them. Space Marines sell more, so GW looks for ways to exploit that popularity.

Yet even people who are new to the game figure out really quick that the Marines get updated early and often so they will remain competitive far longer than those who play Xenos races. If marines had only one dex, and a release schedule of once every 8 to 10 years like many xenos have to deal with, I would bet their sales would suffer as well.

ForgottenLore
21-07-2012, 14:48
Games Workshop has tried really hard to push Xenos armies,
Yeah? When?

I haven't seen them push any xenon hard in the past 10 years or so. Even the Dark Eldar relaunch barely registered as a blip among all the flood of marine related post, ads, and releases.

AlexHolker
21-07-2012, 14:53
Yeah? When?

I haven't seen them push any xenon hard in the past 10 years or so. Even the Dark Eldar relaunch barely registered as a blip among all the flood of marine related post, ads, and releases.
What was it, a week on the front page before they switched to advertising Ultramarines?

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-07-2012, 14:55
and people still end up playing Space Marines. And it's because they're humans (essentially), and all the players are humans, so they're easy to "identify with" and easy to root for.

Really? I don't really find I can relate to most Space Marines (or indeed most Imperial agents) at all. Just as I don't get religious fanatics in the real world I don't get them in Space-Fantasy. Marines are not really any more human than Orks or Eldars are. And those two races are essentially so common fantasy archetypes that I think we can reasonably expect people to "get" them.

It's just that 40k, at it's core is a game made for Space Marines. Right from the basic mechanics to the update cycles, model ranges and fiction.

thor2006
21-07-2012, 15:01
Maybe because the 40k the xenos are as big or bigger monsters than the humans they fight.
You blame the humans that they are so harsh or fanatical, they have to be just to survive. It is like blaming the victim for the criminals behavior.

megatrons2nd
21-07-2012, 15:20
Maybe because the 40k the xenos are as big or bigger monsters than the humans they fight.
You blame the humans that they are so harsh or fanatical, they have to be just to survive. It is like blaming the victim for the criminals behavior.

The empire is a bigger monster than some of the Xenos it fights. Heck the Empire does as much damage to itself as it does to xenos. Any force that wipes out entire planets of it's own just because the planetary governor has decided to rebel, or because it had a small demon attack on it, is much more evil than the xenos.

thor2006
21-07-2012, 15:29
The empire is a bigger monster than some of the Xenos it fights. Heck the Empire does as much damage to itself as it does to xenos. Any force that wipes out entire planets of it's own just because the planetary governor has decided to rebel, or because it had a small demon attack on it, is much more evil than the xenos.

In your opinion.
In fluff Exterminatus is only employed when the planet is irreversible lost to chaos or nids. And in chaos case not all the time. Not the first but the last and in extremis case. And consider what chaos is well they be doing a favor to those still alive.

Johnnya10
21-07-2012, 15:44
I vote for amorphous blobs, spiderman and, of course, squats. :D

Seriously though, I think we could do with at least one more xenos species certainly. As a constant enemy of the Imperium, I'm all for seeing more species that like to kill/hunt/eat humans. The only problem is where do we go from here. I like the specific allied units like the warmahordes mercenaries that could make a whole army themselves but look best when a couple of units are hitched up to another force. Only thing is I really don't see GW admitting that someone else had a good idea by copying them. I heard rumours of a more insectoid based force many moons ago - like vespids but more so - but really, we have the nids for that. I just can't think what else could be left...

ForgottenLore
21-07-2012, 16:22
It is like blaming the victim for the criminals behavior.
No, it's like blaming a criminal and holding him responsible for his own actions even though he claims he only did it because society (the galaxy) at large wasn't fair to him.

I vastly prefer the xenos races specifically BECAUSE the are so much easier to relate to than the narrow minded, ignorant and happy about that, bigoted, fascist, religious fanatics that pass as humans in the setting.

Veteran Sergeant
21-07-2012, 16:30
Yet even people who are new to the game figure out really quick that the Marines get updated early and often so they will remain competitive far longer than those who play Xenos races. If marines had only one dex, and a release schedule of once every 8 to 10 years like many xenos have to deal with, I would bet their sales would suffer as well.
You're not looking at the long term. Space Marines didn't start getting everything. They took over because they've always sold more. Space Marine sales might suffer if they didn't get as much coverage as they do, but that would be idiotic for GW to do. They push the models because they sell. And they sell models because they want to stay in business. Every time they've released a new Xenos army, or a new xenos codex, they've pushed it hard as hell. Obviously the sales have never justified continued effort.

You don't have to like it. But that's the way it is. We can talk about all kinds of implausible and nonsensical "what ifs". However it seems more useful to just discuss the reality.


Really? I don't really find I can relate to most Space Marines (or indeed most Imperial agents) at all. You're the minority.

thor2006
21-07-2012, 17:34
No, it's like blaming a criminal and holding him responsible for his own actions even though he claims he only did it because society (the galaxy) at large wasn't fair to him.

I vastly prefer the xenos races specifically BECAUSE the are so much easier to relate to than the narrow minded, ignorant and happy about that, bigoted, fascist, religious fanatics that pass as humans in the setting.

The fluff is fill with aliens that wish only to kill eat, or enslave humans,or go on the extreme to hunt or hurt humans to the point that outside of extreme cases no xeno specie is willing to treat fairly with humans even when when the humans didn't do anything to them. And that was started during the age of strife and continuous to the present 40k timeline. After a few thousands years when the norm is to hunt,kill, eat, enslave or be as ******* or harmful towards humans is the norm for the xeno species in the Galaxy it is no wonder the humans are xenophobic towards the aliens.
It is no wonder that this very forum they wish for some new aliens to hunt or eat or kill humans like that humans are some sort of cattle.
And as for species that do not go raar kill humans,enslave humans like kroot, demiurg, jokaero the IOM and humans will relatively tolerate them.
As for an open society look there is a thing called Chaos, that even hearing about it's very existence can cause it to become a threat to any normal society and try to bring about the collapse of society in an orgy of blood or bring about hell on earth literally .The amount of targeted infiltration, corruption that Chaos tries to employ against humans is greater than what they employ against any xenos.Try having a liberal society with humans in that setting and in a few decades from contact with outside Galaxy it will have it collapsed into a Chaos ruled hell planet.
To have a society for an interstellar empire with very slow FTL travel time and unreliable FTL communications under permanent siege from aliens and under targeted infiltration from Chaos is impossible, and the height of insanity. For humans and what GW has given them problems to have a large interstellar empire as a liberal social democracy is impossible.Do not think (as seen from HH books) that when the Emperor was around the IOM was an enlighten liberal state.
As for conditions of the common people there are no resources for almost anything else but defense against Chaos or Xeno constant attack.
I don't deny that there are problems with the IOM caused by the ruling elite but no system is perfect.
So far almost no human world from fluff is a liberal democracy even when that world is outside of the IOM for a good amount of time.

Hrw-Amen
21-07-2012, 18:36
If they ever did do an alien race (other than ones we know about.) I'd like them to be totally alien, that is not just humans with funny heads and different coloured skin. Something that is almost so alien to look at it is hard to actually say it is a life-form. Not sure exactly how they would do that mind you, but it would certainly be different. For what it is worth I think a big opportunity was missed when they re-did Necrons, they could easily have made them more alien, remember all those old rumours about the original Necrontyr not being bipeds?

Balerion
21-07-2012, 19:44
The fluff is fill with aliens that wish only to kill eat, or enslave humans,or go on the extreme to hunt or hurt humans to the point that outside of extreme cases no xeno specie is willing to treat fairly with humans even when when the humans didn't do anything to them. And that was started during the age of strife and continuous to the present 40k timeline. After a few thousands years when the norm is to hunt,kill, eat, enslave or be as ******* or harmful towards humans is the norm for the xeno species in the Galaxy it is no wonder the humans are xenophobic towards the aliens.
It is no wonder that this very forum they wish for some new aliens to hunt or eat or kill humans like that humans are some sort of cattle.
And as for species that do not go raar kill humans,enslave humans like kroot, demiurg, jokaero the IOM and humans will relatively tolerate them.
As for an open society look there is a thing called Chaos, that even hearing about it's very existence can cause it to become a threat to any normal society and try to bring about the collapse of society in an orgy of blood or bring about hell on earth literally .The amount of targeted infiltration, corruption that Chaos tries to employ against humans is greater than what they employ against any xenos.Try having a liberal society with humans in that setting and in a few decades from contact with outside Galaxy it will have it collapsed into a Chaos ruled hell planet.
To have a society for an interstellar empire with very slow FTL travel time and unreliable FTL communications under permanent siege from aliens and under targeted infiltration from Chaos is impossible, and the height of insanity. For humans and what GW has given them problems to have a large interstellar empire as a liberal social democracy is impossible.Do not think (as seen from HH books) that when the Emperor was around the IOM was an enlighten liberal state.
As for conditions of the common people there are no resources for almost anything else but defense against Chaos or Xeno constant attack.
I don't deny that there are problems with the IOM caused by the ruling elite but no system is perfect.
So far almost no human world from fluff is a liberal democracy even when that world is outside of the IOM for a good amount of time.
This is rank apologism, and you could change a bunch of nouns in it and have it apply to any dictatorship in human history.

So, yeah, it's obviously easier to maintain a hegemony with fear and violence, but if we're talking about morality then that factor is irrelevant. You don't look at the technical success of the venture, you look at the human cost.

TimLeeson
21-07-2012, 19:52
If they ever did do an alien race (other than ones we know about.) I'd like them to be totally alien, that is not just humans with funny heads and different coloured skin. Something that is almost so alien to look at it is hard to actually say it is a life-form.

That's basicly what I'm doing with my own wargame. It's nowhere near as difficult to do as people make out.

yabbadabba
21-07-2012, 20:00
The hard reality of economics. Aside from that its always nice to see new things in 40K.

thor2006
21-07-2012, 20:01
Unlike the IOM ,where the threats are real, and the IOM is severely overwhelmed by insane enemies,the history dictatorships didn't have the same level of threats or severity.
And I looked at practical side of the problems. With what is the Galaxy situation and the forces that are against humans and the capabilities of humans and enemies the IOM does the job good enough to protect humanity from harm. They have no time,no resources, and are constantly undermined by hostile forces when they try to reform to seriously reform to something less cruel.
I say that all other human political movements put in the shoes of the IOM with the resources and enemies of the IOM will do a worse job than the IOM. The IOM is not in most part unnecessary cruel in my opinion but necessary cruel. Also the IOM like other institutions will not be perfect will commit acts of unnecessary cruelty.
Morality is always conditioned by environment. And if the environment is hell so lots of things will be forgiven.
Almost all historic or present day real life societies put in the same environment with the IOM ,having the same level of tech and resources will either adapt and become more like the IOM or die and have their population experience hell for eternity.
Maybe for you it is revisionism but not what I see.

EDIT

I would like to see more xenos but I don't believe that GW can timely update the current codexes to have time for new ones. Also I would like for xenos to be less insane or apocalyptic somewhere around tau level.

Dice
21-07-2012, 20:02
I agree with those that would like another truly 'alien' species that isn't humanoid, however, I don't think it's necessary at all, as I think the 40k universe is fine as it is where species and races are concerned... if they do venture with the idea of adding a further menace to the universe then a truly 'alien' species would be the way to go.
A high technology race with an insect-like looks would be great I reckon, a nice contrast to the Tyranids to boot! Though, you could just as easily implement a species like this as an ally for the Tau, a bit like the Vespids I guess.

Tau and Eldar, whilst great are too humanoid for my liking, it would have to be something drastically different for me to pony up some cash!

Drasanil
21-07-2012, 20:29
You're not looking at the long term. Space Marines didn't start getting everything. They took over because they've always sold more.

O'rly? 2nd edition already had three marines codexes not counting chaos, Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Angels of Death (Dark and Blood). As far as modern 40k goes they did pretty start with getting everything.


Space Marine sales might suffer if they didn't get as much coverage as they do, but that would be idiotic for GW to do. They push the models because they sell. And they sell models because they want to stay in business. Every time they've released a new Xenos army, or a new xenos codex, they've pushed it hard as hell. Obviously the sales have never justified continued effort.

Remember the Dark Eldar rerelease? Lot's of Buzz on the web about it, GW not so much, sure they made an effort but nothing compared to the near constant saturation of shinny marine peddling. Hell the original Dark Eldar were released with the 3rd ed starter set and GW made a huge effort to pimp Marines, but barely even tried with the DE.

Plasmafest
21-07-2012, 20:31
What are the odds of Ally Mini-dexes that draw from the RPG line? The Slaugth, Yu'Vath, Rak'Gol and so on are a great bunch of gribblies to turn up at random. Mmmmmm, Finecast Maggot Men...

thor2006
21-07-2012, 20:31
It is kind of hard to put two mortal enemies chaos and IOM space marines into the same book.

thor2006
21-07-2012, 20:32
What are the odds of Ally Mini-dexes that draw from the RPG line? The Slaugth, Yu'Vath, Rak'Gol and so on are a great bunch of gribblies to turn up at random. Mmmmmm, Finecast Maggot Men...

Yu'Vath are extinct ,and good riddance. The Slaugth,Rak'Gol are too localized and only ally are chaos and dark eldar if that.

PANZERBUNNY
21-07-2012, 21:06
They've all been purged, eaten by Tyranid or killed by Necrons long ago.

TheDungen
21-07-2012, 21:33
i disagree with the non humanoid thing, i'd say the reason that we've evolved into this form is becuase it is the most efficient, just because somethign else evolved somewhere else doesnt mean what efficient change.

ForgottenLore
21-07-2012, 21:58
i disagree with the non humanoid thing, i'd say the reason that we've evolved into this form is becuase it is the most efficient, just because somethign else evolved somewhere else doesnt mean what efficient change.

That is a valid point, but doesn't necessarily preclude non-humanoid forms since different forms can be efficient in different environments (or even random chance).

I have long held the belief that a sci-fi setting that wanted non-humanoid aliens and also wanted to be somewhat realistic should have 2-4 basic shapes, and then have most species conform to one of those basic designs. So you would have humanoids and then a few other ______oids, each form represented by a number of different species.

However, 40K isn't really sci-fi, it is fantasy with high tech trappings, which allows them to do basically whatever they bloody well want with regards to alien shapes. If they can figure out how to do miniatures of sapient clouds of gas, hey go for it.

Charistoph
22-07-2012, 06:59
I vote for amorphous blobs, spiderman and, of course, squats. :D

Seriously though, I think we could do with at least one more xenos species certainly. As a constant enemy of the Imperium, I'm all for seeing more species that like to kill/hunt/eat humans. The only problem is where do we go from here. I like the specific allied units like the warmahordes mercenaries that could make a whole army themselves but look best when a couple of units are hitched up to another force. Only thing is I really don't see GW admitting that someone else had a good idea by copying them. I heard rumours of a more insectoid based force many moons ago - like vespids but more so - but really, we have the nids for that. I just can't think what else could be left...

Odd, wasn't Fantasy's Dogs of War out a long time before Warmachine was launched? I could be wrong, though. Where it gets difficult is alligning them to the 15-16 armies currently in existence. That part could get very clunky, as we see even various Space Marine codecies having different reactions to other armies, and even each other.

Someone should probably start such a codex project in RD for gets and shiggles. It could be fun.

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-07-2012, 08:00
You're the minority.

Yes and no. I'd argue that most people don't actually relate to the brain eating, acid spitting, brain washed, psychopathic child soldier that are Space Marines but rather to the simplified idea of human space knights/special forces. If you look into it Space Marines really aren't humans at all. Socially, mentally or physically Space Marines are just as alien as the xenos. And as for Inquisitors and the like, I don't see a lot of people relating to someone like Breivik and his actions could be taken straight out of an Inquisitors playbook (minus the part about being captured). I think people can relate to popular shorthand archetypes. Space Knight/Monk, Secret Agent, Steadfast Warrior, Special Forces, etc. So people are relating to them at the same level as Eldars being Space Elves and Orks being Space Orks. Both really popular/common fantasy archetypes.

So I'm really not convinced that Marines are just that inherently more relatable that it can be used to explain the difference in use. I think people like the idea of Space Knights in Power Amour so there will be some of it, but I don't think that is the difference. Your going to have to look elsewhere. Being easy to use, in a game system designed around their core values, frequent updates/additions, largest model range, easy to paint, included in the starter sets, pushed hard, narrative focus. All of that probably helps too.

Desalbert
22-07-2012, 08:36
If no one is considering Chaos Daemons as xenos, they really should be. They're about as conceptually alien as one could possibly get. I add them to the "aliens" column

yabbadabba
22-07-2012, 08:45
In reality there are more xenos than Imperials, its just that the variations that GW have produced for the Imperials, and in particular SMs, sell far better than the xenos variations. As for association, while the adults can see the SMs for what they really are (and I would guess hence make up the majority of the xenos players and buyers) for the youngsters IG and SMs are human, with SMs being super human. What is there not to love?

DietDolphin
22-07-2012, 08:55
Yes and no. I'd argue that most people don't actually relate to the brain eating, acid spitting, brain washed, psychopathic child soldier that are Space Marines but rather to the simplified idea of human space knights/special forces. If you look into it Space Marines really aren't humans at all. Socially, mentally or physically Space Marines are just as alien as the xenos. And as for Inquisitors and the like, I don't see a lot of people relating to someone like Breivik and his actions could be taken straight out of an Inquisitors playbook (minus the part about being captured). I think people can relate to popular shorthand archetypes. Space Knight/Monk, Secret Agent, Steadfast Warrior, Special Forces, etc. So people are relating to them at the same level as Eldars being Space Elves and Orks being Space Orks. Both really popular/common fantasy archetypes.

So I'm really not convinced that Marines are just that inherently more relatable that it can be used to explain the difference in use. I think people like the idea of Space Knights in Power Amour so there will be some of it, but I don't think that is the difference. Your going to have to look elsewhere. Being easy to use, in a game system designed around their core values, frequent updates/additions, largest model range, easy to paint, included in the starter sets, pushed hard, narrative focus. All of that probably helps too.

But doesn't the Horus Heresy essentially prove that marines are more like humans that they would like to admit? They have personalities and personal goals, a sense of morals and emotions and they are flawed. Sure they have superstrenght, superbrains and superspit but the key thing is they are superhuman, hell even the primarchs were ultimately vulnerable to the same mental/emotional weaknesses all humans are.

Also saying I cant relate to space marines because they eat brains or spit acid is like saying I can't relate to the french because they eat frogs or females because I can't breastfeed. Sure of course there will be differences between us and a theoretical super marine but it doesn't mean we cant relate to them in some capacity. At the end of the day humans and marines are both the same, they both fight for humanity against the Imperiums enemies, just that marines are far better and more efficient at what they do. Everyone can relate to "us few against the universe" mentality of marines in some way.

Athlan na Dyr
22-07-2012, 12:00
If no one is considering Chaos Daemons as xenos, they really should be. They're about as conceptually alien as one could possibly get. I add them to the "aliens" column
I'd add them to the 'wierd as f' column personally. There are to all intents and purposes humans dialed up to eleven with a freaky looking costume, rather than an alien being. Of course the same could be said with Eldar and Orks, with the sole truly Alien faction being the Tyranids. But I digress, Daemons fit in their own 'Daemon' column, rather than a Xenos or Human one.


But doesn't the Horus Heresy essentially prove that marines are more like humans that they would like to admit? They have personalities and personal goals, a sense of morals and emotions and they are flawed. Sure they have superstrenght, superbrains and superspit but the key thing is they are superhuman, hell even the primarchs were ultimately vulnerable to the same mental/emotional weaknesses all humans are.

Also saying I cant relate to space marines because they eat brains or spit acid is like saying I can't relate to the french because they eat frogs or females because I can't breastfeed. Sure of course there will be differences between us and a theoretical super marine but it doesn't mean we cant relate to them in some capacity. At the end of the day humans and marines are both the same, they both fight for humanity against the Imperiums enemies, just that marines are far better and more efficient at what they do. Everyone can relate to "us few against the universe" mentality of marines in some way.

Heresy Era Space Marines != 40k Space Marines. 30k was before the whole 'psycho indoctrination' thing with the various brainwashings, formal structure and so on that turns a man into a programmable super soldier (IIRC, please correct me if I'm wrong). A 40k Space Marine is far more restricted in his emotional capabilities (And They Shall Know No Fear is a prime example) than his 30k equivalent due to these and the greater emphasis later placed on the monk-style living and severe asceticism that accompanies this. Of course this is a matter of personal interpretation, but I find Space Marines no more human than a high magos of the Mechanicus with 90% of his body replaced with machinery. It might be human in origin and its mind comes from human origins, but the drastic changes to the physical body through augmentation and the mind through rigid adherence to a strange and illogical system make it alien.
The Marines that are closest to human are the Space Wolves and the less-Chaosified Chaos Space Marines (such as the ones from the Night Lord series by Aaron Dembski-Bowden)

-Loki-
22-07-2012, 12:12
The Marines that are closest to human are the Space Wolves and the less-Chaosified Chaos Space Marines (such as the ones from the Night Lord series by Aaron Dembski-Bowden)

Salamanders are closer than any of those. They not only live with the population of Nocturne, but live with their families. They fight to protect the people of the Imprium more than the Imperium itself, and have come to blows with other chapters over mistreatment of civilians.

TrangleC
22-07-2012, 12:42
No matter how annoyed Space Marine fans are by Xeno fans always bitching about this, fact is that it just is weird that in a tabletop system with 8 to 10 (depending on whether you differentiate between Eldar and Dark Eldar and between Chaos and CSM) basic factions, one gets half of the codices and 70% of the developer's love.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't even a "Games Workshop thing", because none of the Warhammer Fantasy factions gets anywhere near as much special treatment as the Space Marines do in 40k.
I know no other tabletop system that is like that. Even a system that ought to be geared at favoring one faction over the others for fluff reasons, like the Starship Troopers game (where the name of the game is basically the name of one faction) for example, doesn't do that and is better balanced than 40k. I think nobody would have been surprised or would have blamed the developers of the Starship Troopers tabletop if they would have made it all about the Troopers and would only have made the insectoids something to kill for the humans, but the bugs got just as many different units, special abilities and good looking models as the human faction got.

Even if I'd had been an exclusive Space Marine player for all my time as a tabletop player, I still would find GWs policy weird and nothing to applaud.

I think the fact that Sisters Of Battle don't get the same love as all the other Power Armor Imperial factions shows what this is all about. It is all about selling stuff to little boys instead of selling to grownups and because little boys usually don't want to field predominately female armies, SOB don't fit into GW's strategy. They are neither fish nor meat, no real Space Marines and no Xenos that are only kept around so the Marines have something to kill.

Also the argument that SM are just so incredibly popular and thus it is only natural and sensible that GW puts that much more work and love into them than into other factions never really impressed me. I think that is one of those "what came first, the chicken or the egg?"-things.
If GW wouldn't have been pushing Space Marines so hard for so long (not only by giving them the most codices but also by making them the face of the game, putting Space Marine sculpts and cardboard cutouts in their stores and focusing the PC games, books and that movie on them), it wouldn't be so obvious and natural for new players to start off with Space Marines.


I think it is a mistake by GW to not have included that "new civil war" narrative that was rumored into the new rulebook fluff. That would have given a fluff frame and explanation for the real life fact that loyalist Space Marines fight other loyalist Space Marines more often than they fight Xenos or Chaos nowadays.


I'm not generally begrudging Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights their powerful new codices, but I see a big problem for the system in turning those former "connoisseur factions" that people played because they loved the fluff and the minis but knew they wouldn't be winning tournaments with them, into the top competitive codices of the game. The problem is that now GW doesn't have another way to go than to crank the power spiral even more with the next Vanilla/Ultra Marine codex, because what other way do you got to make people still play generic and Ultra Marines if they don't get even better stuff than the other Marines?
Once upon a time you played Vanilla/Ultra Marines to be competitive and all those other Marines were there for people who didn't care so much about being competitive, or loved their fluff, or wanted to try army builds the generally stronger Vanilla codex didn't allow. Under those conditions it was no problem to keep several Marine codices around, because the specialized ones were sort of harmless, rarely played and didn't have much influence on the meta game.
Making them all powerful creates a problem for the game as a whole, no matter how glad their fans are to finally have a strong, competitive codex.
Like I said, now there is no other choice than to turn the power spiral further and further with every new Vanilla Marine codex and the following generation of Specialist Marine codices.

Veteran Sergeant
22-07-2012, 15:56
Yes and no. I'd argue that most people don't actually relate to the brain eating, acid spitting, brain washed, psychopathic child soldier that are Space Marines but rather to the simplified idea of human space knights/special forces.What's the difference? If you don't read the fluff, and new players rarely have, that's all they are. Big guys in big armor with big guns. It's a fairly tried, true, and lasting gimmick for sci-fi. Only about a dozen franchises built on that idea, lol.


If you look into it Space Marines really aren't humans at all. Socially, mentally or physically Space Marines are just as alien as the xenos. Again, the psychological/deep reading part is irrelevant. 40K players aren't Comp Lit or Cognitive Neuro-sci majors.


I think people can relate to popular shorthand archetypes. Space Knight/Monk, Secret Agent, Steadfast Warrior, Special Forces, etc. So people are relating to them at the same level as Eldars being Space Elves and Orks being Space Orks. You're back on track. This is exactly why they are so well received. Special Forces are cool to everybody. Heck, I've worked with SpecOps guys, seen them in real life and know the reality as opposed to the Hollywood version. Even I still think those guys are awesome

Both really popular/common fantasy archetypes. Common? Yes. Popular... no. Elves and Orks are typically associated with genres that are kinda dorky, appealing to a niche market. Admittedly, it's the same niche market (gamers), but even within that niche, there are people who think elves are kinda lame. Elves are an escapist fantasy for people who find human characters boring because, well, they're boring themselves, and figure life must be more awesome if you're not human. It's the same reason you see games like Everquest or World of Warcraft sporting huge Dark Elf populations, simply because people lack the imagination for anything and fall into stereotypes, and, amusingly enough, call human characters "boring". ;)

Regardless. Special Forces: Always cool. Knights: Usually cool. Elves and orks: Occasionally cool.


So I'm really not convinced that Marines are just that inherently more relatable Unfortunate. However, that's the case, and eventually you'll come around I'm sure.

Veteran Sergeant
22-07-2012, 16:02
But doesn't the Horus Heresy essentially prove that marines are more like humans that they would like to admit?
All the Horus Heresy proves is that if you've got the resources to publish a lot of books, and fairly large stable of mediocre but adequate authors constantly churning out license fiction, you can make a lot of money.

The writing for the Space Marines in the HH series has been pretty marginal. Most of the authors have failed to capture the essence of what Space Marines would actually be like, and overly imbue them with human characteristics and motivations that don't match up at all with the fluff, or what a "realistic" depiction of them would be like. And that's fine, because it makes them more easy for readers to relate to, which in turn, sells more books, and more plastic toy soldiers. Which is really the point no?

Aryllon
22-07-2012, 17:32
Back on topic - it does seem like GW have given a nod to this by adding the Jokaero and five (not 3 as someone mentioned) new species in the DE book. Add in the rumours of Demiurg being added to the next Tau book and most recently, Dragon Riders for the new Eldar codex (the mounts being a new species, not the riders) and it does seem like the writers, rules makers & sculptors enjoy 'new things' just as much as we do.

I do think there's room for another race in 40k though, first thought would be a separate empire which competes with the imperium rather than being hell-bent on harming it - but that's the Tau. The equivalent 'slot' for ogre kingdoms would be interesting; not literally ogryns, but a xeno equivalent to GKs would be cool. A small number of big, powerful models with unique abilities. I'd think there could be space for xenos in the Eldar codex too; for example the Slann were equally chummy with the Old Ones so adding an element of their also-declining civilisation wouldn't be un-fluffy. Especially as it would explain why Exodites live alongside reptiles and, considering the 40k status quo of 'every race has a mirror bad faction', it would make sense that naughty lizard men would exist too... and if the good ones were Eldar friendly the bad ones would probably turn up in Commoraugh. Oh hello Mr Slyth, now we know where you came from.

Adding my tuppence'orth to the IOM 'morality' debate, frankly I see Tau and Eldar as the good guys in the galaxy. If you had exactly the same Imperium setup but simply changed the race from humans to something else, we'd all pretty much agree that the IOM is one of the most evil and dangerous factions around. We just give them leeway for 'being human'. If you judge a race not by 'how they treat the human race' but rather 'how they treat themselves and other races', Tau definitely come out on top and Imperium near the bottom. As for Eldar you have to think about the cause of an action rather than the action itself - yeah they are as likely to kill a human as save a human life, but that's only bad if humans inherently deserve to not be killed. Craftworld Eldar have no desire to hurt humans, they just have to prioritise the fact that their race is dying out so if fate decrees that the long term good outweighs the short term bad then so be it. And Orks aren't bad at all, they're just having fun. Then look at the goodness of the internal society per race, how they behave and run themselves internally discounting their interaction with other species; again Tau get top marks closely followed by craftworlders. And again the Imperium is near the bottom.

The distinction seems to be people either feel "they are good because I'm one of them" or "they are good because they are good". Personally, I'm in the latter camp.

Col. Tartleton
22-07-2012, 18:51
It's not even about more Aliens Species vs Space Marines, as that's obviously screwed up pretty badly. It's about factions and diversity in general.

Imperial:
- Imperial Guards
- Space Marines
- Dark Angels Space Marines
- Black Templar Space Marines
- Blood Angel Space Marines
- Space Wolf Space Marines
- Grey Knight Space Marines
- Sisters of Battle
Chaos:
- Chaos Space Marines
- Chaos Daemons
Eldar:
- Eldar
- Dark Eldar
Necrons:
- Necrons
Tau:
- Tau
Tyrannids:
- Tyrannids

Even if we condensed all the loyalist marines into one book, we'd still be limited to 6 factions with various amounts of internal variety.

Cap'n Shings
22-07-2012, 18:54
In the ideal world it would be awesome to get more Xeno armies, GW has enough trouble updating the codex's they already have though.

Stormtrooper Clark
22-07-2012, 18:56
Because Xenos don't sell as well as Flavour-of-the-Month Spess Mehreens.

yabbadabba
22-07-2012, 19:05
It's not even about more Aliens Species vs Space Marines, as that's obviously screwed up pretty badly. It's about factions and diversity in general. That's more about codexes mate. If it is about factions and diversity then it goes a lot further than that.

thor2006
22-07-2012, 19:11
Back on topic - it does seem like GW have given a nod to this by adding the Jokaero and five (not 3 as someone mentioned) new species in the DE book. Add in the rumours of Demiurg being added to the next Tau book and most recently, Dragon Riders for the new Eldar codex (the mounts being a new species, not the riders) and it does seem like the writers, rules makers & sculptors enjoy 'new things' just as much as we do.

I do think there's room for another race in 40k though, first thought would be a separate empire which competes with the imperium rather than being hell-bent on harming it - but that's the Tau. The equivalent 'slot' for ogre kingdoms would be interesting; not literally ogryns, but a xeno equivalent to GKs would be cool. A small number of big, powerful models with unique abilities. I'd think there could be space for xenos in the Eldar codex too; for example the Slann were equally chummy with the Old Ones so adding an element of their also-declining civilisation wouldn't be un-fluffy. Especially as it would explain why Exodites live alongside reptiles and, considering the 40k status quo of 'every race has a mirror bad faction', it would make sense that naughty lizard men would exist too... and if the good ones were Eldar friendly the bad ones would probably turn up in Commoraugh. Oh hello Mr Slyth, now we know where you came from.

Adding my tuppence'orth to the IOM 'morality' debate, frankly I see Tau and Eldar as the good guys in the galaxy. If you had exactly the same Imperium setup but simply changed the race from humans to something else, we'd all pretty much agree that the IOM is one of the most evil and dangerous factions around. We just give them leeway for 'being human'. If you judge a race not by 'how they treat the human race' but rather 'how they treat themselves and other races', Tau definitely come out on top and Imperium near the bottom. As for Eldar you have to think about the cause of an action rather than the action itself - yeah they are as likely to kill a human as save a human life, but that's only bad if humans inherently deserve to not be killed. Craftworld Eldar have no desire to hurt humans, they just have to prioritise the fact that their race is dying out so if fate decrees that the long term good outweighs the short term bad then so be it. And Orks aren't bad at all, they're just having fun. Then look at the goodness of the internal society per race, how they behave and run themselves internally discounting their interaction with other species; again Tau get top marks closely followed by craftworlders. And again the Imperium is near the bottom.

The distinction seems to be people either feel "they are good because I'm one of them" or "they are good because they are good". Personally, I'm in the latter camp.

The only reason Tau and Eldar treat their fellow citizen better because they are small so their resources can cover their problems and enemies, have massive technological advantages, are not subjects to the massive chaos threat that is tailor made to take advantage of humanity but be practicably incapable to cause great harm to Eldar or Tau. Also Tau and Eldar are not attacked with the same intensity by all the factions in the Galaxy. Thus it makes the Eldar and Tau situation less dire and in comparison with their resources the Eldar and Tau can devote their resources to the living conditions of their fellow citizens.
When was the last time the Eldar and Tau were subjected to the level of infiltration and subversion that Chaos is constantly causing humans.
Lots of morality problems that the IOM is having is the fact to defend their huge populations (that because their biology are hugely vulnerable to chaos) without the comparable resources(in regards of resources/population) of the Tau or Eldar, under a most vicious and constant assault by aliens and chaos. While the Eldar is using the IOM as a meetshield is having a massive psyker protection,farseeing ability and mobility in the craftworld system and in the webway, will always speak as cryptically even when they will be better serve by being truthful and probably will take steps to prevent any attempt to reform the IOM for the better.

Craftworld Eldar have no desire to hurt humans, they just have to prioritise the fact that their race is dying out so if fate decrees that the long term good outweighs the short term bad then so be it.
That is a false one. Craftworld eldar most of the time will try to solve their problems while maximizing the harm cause on other neutral third parties and they are know for their treachery for nothing. Or the fact that most of the solutions for their problems the eldar will take would be to attack both the problem and the humans even if the effective one would have been working with the humans. Or the fact that eldar high standard of living is because they have access to high technology from the Eldar Empire in greater quantity than humans and most of humanity for 5k years had their high technology destroyed and what replaced was bare bones of tech that could be used for defense..


And Orks aren't bad at all, they're just having fun.
Yes having a little fun like waging war and taking slaves or the fact their constant strife is one of indirect causes that strengthen Chaos.Or the fact we the modern world would consider then pure evil and we will try to kill them to the last without mercy for that "little fun".They are incapable to understand peace.

In comparison with the Tau and Eldar the IOM has less resources to spare, have a more diffuse less defensible holdings, are attacked by more threats hellbent on exterminating and enslaving them, have a biology very vulnerable to chaos(a great threat that will cause IOM to be so cruel) ,posses in case of Eldar of great psyker defense and force multipliers and cannot spare its resources from military needed to just stay alive and divert them towards improving the lives of their citizens. Or the fact that most of the xenophobia of the IOM is against the aliens that attack them with others the IOM can have a less warlike relashionship.

Also the IOM are populated by real people and not mary sue that takes 4 thousand years from discovering fire to creating an empire that can survive the IOM like the Tau is.

Without chaos you will probably see a great improvement in the human rights of the IOM , because the real threat that causes all that strict measures, and justified paranoia from the IOM and free more resources and personnel for attacking corruption and improvement of individual human rights.
It is like the universe is tailor made to take advantages of the humans and IOM and offer buffs to other alien species.

So the Tau and the Eldar can afford to have better human rights, are not pressed so hard from attack by enemies , have not a biology tailor made to be exploited by Chaos,have greater resources in comparison with their population,have a territory more easily defended, are not under constant infiltration by Chaos, have not everything that can go wrong will go wrong curse on them .
So I see ,in my opinion because of vastly different situations that the Eldar and the IOM are in, as equal in their level of morality. Depending on how the new Tau codex will be I can say if the Tau are better or the same as the Eldar and the IOM.

yabbadabba
22-07-2012, 19:15
Because Xenos don't sell as well as Flavour-of-the-Month Spess Mehreens. Xenos? Is that those Aleeuns that everyone is talking about :rolleyes:

Stormtrooper Clark
22-07-2012, 20:23
Xenos? Is that those Aleeuns that everyone is talking about :rolleyes:

No, those are the ones taking our jeerrbbss.

Aryllon
22-07-2012, 20:40
@thor96, yes but that's all from the perspective of the humans...

Regardless, Eldar are by far the preferred targets of chaos. Humans are just easier to harvest not because of biological reasons but because they are mentally weak and there are billions to choose from :)


No, those are the ones taking our jeerrbbss.

Hahaha, I've been saying that in my head all afternoon!

Edit: WTF quote function??! Work dammit! And stop ****** up my posts!

thor2006
22-07-2012, 20:59
@thor96, yes but that's all from the perspective of the humans...

Regardless, Eldar are by far the preferred targets of chaos. Humans are just easier to harvest not because of biological reasons but because they are mentally weak and there are billions to choose from :)

[
No, those are the ones taking our jeerrbbss.

Hahaha, I've been saying that in my head all afternoon!

Edit: WTF quote function??! Work dammit! And stop ****** up my posts!
While the Eldar are the favorite target of one of the Chaos Powers, they posses great psyker defense and a biology(and a mental fortitude) that makes Eldar hard to corrupt. Humans are easier to corrupt and are under constant assault of all of the chaos powers with little or no psyker defense.

As far as I understood we were comparing factions from western point of view.

While I like eldar also I would like to begin to see more xenos that are not dicks or evil for the sake of being evil or the ultimate apocalyptic threat to threaten the Galaxy. It is getting a little boring.

Stormtrooper Clark
22-07-2012, 21:11
While I like eldar also I would like to begin to see more xenos that are not dicks or evil for the sake of being evil or the ultimate apocalyptic threat to threaten the Galaxy. It is getting a little boring.

Tau? I think most people are inclined to disagree with you. Remember the storm about people complaining Tau weren't grimdark enough to the point Games Workshop slapped on implied sterilisation and concentration camps.

To be fair, Dark Eldar are utterly bonkers sure but at least they're trying to keep themselves from being used as Slannesh's boy toys for an eternity rather than taking over/harvesting/consuming the galaxy.

thor2006
22-07-2012, 21:28
Tau? I think most people are inclined to disagree with you. Remember the storm about people complaining Tau weren't grimdark enough to the point Games Workshop slapped on implied sterilisation and concentration camps.

Most of my problems with Tau is that they are kind of mary sue and they could have no mistakes, and all what they do it will always turn right. That they play the Galaxy on the easy mode.

Otherwise Tau were a good race.

Well demiurg ,kroot, Stryxis from Rogue Trader, jokaero,some of the aliens from Dark Eldar codex are examples of xeno that do not share evil, dicks all the time , apocalyptic threat for the Galaxy.

Kuja
22-07-2012, 22:16
Why more aliens people?

GW should improve the current alien races and expand them. I prefer to see more kroot related units in the next codex tau, than a new, boring and ugly alien race.

Seriously, making an alien race from scratch doesn't look like an easy job (actually it looks like a very, very hard job... look at the movie Avatar, those aliens were terrible) and very probably it is a very risky project, especially if you sell an entire army of them. Look at the vespid, those guys are so uninspiring, those things are just humanoid insects (and very similar to tyranids :shifty:) with guns. The same goes for most of the new alien races in the codex dark eldar: a snake man?, a giant monkey with six eyes?, what is alien about them???? we already have the eldar who looks very similar to humans and the jokaero wich looks very similar to monkeys, we don't need more of them...

Also, GW missed the oportunity to make the necrons very interesting and more alien minded, and instead, they made tomb kings in space, with egiptian names and everything... :( (and I was expecting them begin more alien modelwise also, and the entire range less skull faced :o)
Now, think what could happen if the same guys make a new xeno army, that could be a disaster (fluffwise and modelwise).

Drasanil
22-07-2012, 22:45
That is a false one. Craftworld eldar most of the time will try to solve their problems while maximizing the harm cause on other neutral third parties and they are know for their treachery for nothing.

That's complete hofflenosh, by your logic Salamanders would be callous civilian butchering monsters because the Marines Malevolent are in the habit of shelling refugee camps, after all they're both Spess Mahreens. Yes the eldar generally don't give two figs about collateral damage when it comes to humans, that's not necessarily the same as just maximising it to get their jollies, unlike the Imperium which actually does get its jollies doing exactly that to xenos.

Secondly, the reason they're known as fickle and treacherous is because the Imperium isn't privy to their internal decision making process or the reasons behind their seemingly random and contrary actions, which means they have no way of even guessing what the eldar are up to most of the time. Internally their movements make perfect sense to them, it's just from the Imperium's point of view that those same movements are fickle and nonsensical.


Or the fact that most of the solutions for their problems the eldar will take would be to attack both the problem and the humans even if the effective one would have been working with the humans.

Leaving aside assassinations, because there's no non-violent ways of doing it, eldar generally do try to ask nicely first since it would avoid having to put eldar lives on the line, the problem is it generally ends up like this:

Eldar: "Uh... could you please stop poking that hellagte/necron tomb/webway portal/dangerous artifact?"

Human: "Pike off Xenos, Imma gonna keep poking this here hellagte/necron tomb/webway portal/dangerous artifact for teh Emprah!"

Eldar: "Well I did warm you" *Starts shooting*

Human: "Help! Imma bein' oppressed by treacherous-fickle eldar for no apparent raison!"

thor2006
23-07-2012, 07:04
That's complete hofflenosh, by your logic Salamanders would be callous civilian butchering monsters because the Marines Malevolent are in the habit of shelling refugee camps, after all they're both Spess Mahreens. Yes the eldar generally don't give two figs about collateral damage when it comes to humans, that's not necessarily the same as just maximising it to get their jollies, unlike the Imperium which actually does get its jollies doing exactly that to xenos.

Secondly, the reason they're known as fickle and treacherous is because the Imperium isn't privy to their internal decision making process or the reasons behind their seemingly random and contrary actions, which means they have no way of even guessing what the eldar are up to most of the time. Internally their movements make perfect sense to them, it's just from the Imperium's point of view that those same movements are fickle and nonsensical.



Leaving aside assassinations, because there's no non-violent ways of doing it, eldar generally do try to ask nicely first since it would avoid having to put eldar lives on the line, the problem is it generally ends up like this:

Eldar: "Uh... could you please stop poking that hellagte/necron tomb/webway portal/dangerous artifact?"

Human: "Pike off Xenos, Imma gonna keep poking this here hellagte/necron tomb/webway portal/dangerous artifact for teh Emprah!"

Eldar: "Well I did warm you" *Starts shooting*

Human: "Help! Imma bein' oppressed by treacherous-fickle eldar for no apparent raison!"
Most of the time the eldar will speak,when they dean to speak with humans as cryptically as possible ,so any advice they give will be useless, the only reason the advice will be taken will be because of trust (that doesn't exist between the two sides). I'm not speaking of spilling all secrets but by making clear of the problem to the humans now not after a few rounds of useless fighting.
There are also cases when the best way to deal with a problem is to ally with factions that have cooperated (from the IOM) in the past with the eldar, but somehow they attack both the enemy and the IOM faction despite the fact the useless fighting could endanger their very objectives.
So it is more likely this(with the factions the eldar try diplomacy):

Eldar :flowering giberish. Trust us
IOM faction: Come again
Eldar: another stream of flowering language that tells nothing
IOM faction:I'm getting angry . Get out of our property
Eldar: Silly monkey you have doom us all. Die
After a round of useless fighting
IOM faction:Why didn't you tell us of this great evil
Eldar: Useless humans
race to the end to kill or banish the great evil.

Almost all the time. It is just the eldar never learn that this approach doesn't work and try to have a less flowering ,more simple explanation to the humans. Or the fact they never study psychology.Not once ,or twice but constant for 11k years. At least when the eldar come in peace the people that matter pause and try to understand the warnings the eldar try to give, but the eldar never understand that they need to dumb down the explanation or make the explanation less suspect.For manipulators of aliens they sure are dumb when they try to understand the alien mind set.

So maybe they should trust the Eldar but trust is two way street. We see this in the HH novels. Like when they try to warn the primarchs(outside Eldrad) they use the most obscure, the most miss interpreted way, the most way that will tell nothing ,or fail, or make the primarchs angry with them.They don't have a say that they don't know how to communicate with humans when the DAOT of humanity existed for tens of millenia in contact with eldar at that point when most humans are at stone age level.

Show me a craftworld ,any craftworld,in fluff, that takes not too cause maximum harm to third parties even relatively peaceful third parties. Even Marine Malevolent are not going to cause disproportionate collateral damage. They are examples because the majority is not like that.
The IOM doesn't have the resources or time to minimize the battlefield collateral damage, doesn't care ,or is answering against xenos that committed massacres against their civilian population. Also I'm not talking about xenos on the same planet with the fighting ,but the eldar would probably hit neutral factions that are relatively peaceful for afar while IOM would probably not attack them.
Also war and slaughter is a healthy part of the eldar psyche with all the consequences. Why in the fluff the warrior paths are the vast majority of the paths systems if the eldar are not obsessed with war. In humans that is not true.So the eldar are more likely to enjoy waging war and committing genocide than humans by default.

Also the eldar will probably attack any attempt to modernize, or reform to be less cruel or less corrupt.There plenty examples in fluff.

snottlebocket
23-07-2012, 07:37
Human: "Help! Imma bein' oppressed..."

Imperials turn into super mario when faced with a xenos threat? Sorry Azrael, the Lion sword is in the other castle.

shadekiller
23-07-2012, 07:52
to the OP

IMHO the only reason WH40k still run now is beacause we have bucket load of marines codex, they are the one that are almost always a sure cash flow. And if there was for example 1 or 2 marines codex, then every marine player will play with 1 or 2 different codex, wich is uncool because you can only go so far with the size of a dex before going overboard. I don't think the prevalence of marines has anything to do with the number of marines dex or the cool factor of the xeno dex. There is a lot of marines player because a lot a people love marines :P they will not stop liking them because you suddently have 2 more different xeno factions, imho you will not dilute the marines player base amongst xeno dex because you have more of them...

my 2 cent anyway XD

Sai-Lauren
23-07-2012, 08:22
For variety I feel GW has added more Xenos over the past 2 years with jokaero and the 3 new species in the deldar dex.

The problem GW have is risk exposure; they can't launch a whole product range without trying it first. Codex Tau is ideal for this with there being a hardcore kroot contingent out there.

I expect to see at least 1 new race when tau get an update and new units for both kroot and vespids.
Tau's one option, mortal Chaos is another, potentially adding human mutant strains (Beastmen, Minotaurs as Chaos Ogryn, possibly Chaos Squats if the Squats do return), xenos races like the Loxatl (assuming of course GW have the rights to use them in an army) and maybe even warp entities like the Enslavers.



The hard reality of economics. Aside from that its always nice to see new things in 40K.

Agree on both counts - although if you don't try new things, you don't expand and if your major market fails, then you're in trouble.

Hopefully the ally rules will help with bringing new races into the game in an easy and controllable manner.



O'rly? 2nd edition already had three marines codexes not counting chaos, Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Angels of Death (Dark and Blood). As far as modern 40k goes they did pretty start with getting everything.

The Space Wolves started it with a WD list late in 1st edition. Also, the first plastic figures - the RTB01 box set - were Marines, plus they got the Rhino and Land Raider. Orks shipped with a box of Metals and only got plastics late in RT, Guard and Squats got plastics a couple of years after release, whilst the Eldar had some metals, then some metal figures with plastic arms, and only got any real plastics in second edition.

In addition, 1st edition epic came out in that time period, which started with a whole load of marines and nothing else for about 6 months until the plastic Guard shipped (Space Marine shipped along with WD 116, the Guard army list was in either WD 122 or 123).

There's even a massive statue of a Marine outside GW's UK HQ. You can't tell me that doesn't influence people whenever they go to work there ;).



IMHO the only reason WH40k still run now is beacause we have bucket load of marines codex, they are the one that are almost always a sure cash flow. And if there was for example 1 or 2 marines codex, then every marine player will play with 1 or 2 different codex, wich is uncool because you can only go so far with the size of a dex before going overboard. I don't think the prevalence of marines has anything to do with the number of marines dex or the cool factor of the xeno dex. There is a lot of marines player because a lot a people love marines :P they will not stop liking them because you suddently have 2 more different xeno factions, imho you will not dilute the marines player base amongst xeno dex because you have more of them...

my 2 cent anyway XD

Sorry, but that's completely unprovable either way.

Yes, GW have made a lot of money off Marines, but no one can say whether they'd have made the same, more or less had they decided to cover more armies. It's entirely possible that for every person that's bought a Marine codex and army, there's two people that would have bought a different codex and army, had it been available and/or promoted.

The big problem with GW's reliance on Marines is that if the demand for them goes away, then it's very unlikely that GW will be able to quickly bring the other armies up to replace that demand level - you're looking at a development process of years, rather than months.

yabbadabba
23-07-2012, 09:14
Sorry, but that's completely unprovable either way.
Yes, GW have made a lot of money off Marines, but no one can say whether they'd have made the same, more or less had they decided to cover more armies. It's entirely possible that for every person that's bought a Marine codex and army, there's two people that would have bought a different codex and army, had it been available and/or promoted.
The big problem with GW's reliance on Marines is that if the demand for them goes away, then it's very unlikely that GW will be able to quickly bring the other armies up to replace that demand level - you're looking at a development process of years, rather than months. When 3e and 4e were released I spent alot of time with staff and stores working on expanding the army base. It was simple economic sense that if we could achieve so well with Marines, then even a few percent increase in players of other armies would make hitting target so much easier. It was extremely hard work and ultimately not as successful as it needed to be; veterans know their minds, and indeed constitute the majority of xenos players, so pushing them is a no-no. Kids love marines for a huge variety of reasons. Even during major new release periods you will sell Marines hands over fist. Even in trade accounts with no previous GW presence marines always sell substantially more than any other product, and with no real pushing.

Somehow Marines press all the buttons. We also have to remember that the vast majority of GWs lines would make most cottage/garage industries quite happy with turnover, its just relatively speaking that Marines do so well.

Jim Bowen
23-07-2012, 09:24
Just throw my comment in here the reasoon there are not more aliens/xeno in 40K is down to game play Gw could come up with new Xeno types every other month but in the game they would be eiother a Horde or Shooting army so would probably play like Eldar/Tau or Orks/Nids.Also they probably wouldn't sell well enough to justify production costs in Fine cast or Plastic.
Sorry others have said that so its nothing original on my part.

IJW
23-07-2012, 09:44
Back on topic - it does seem like GW have given a nod to this by adding the Jokaero and five (not 3 as someone mentioned) new species in the DE book. Add in the rumours of Demiurg being added to the next Tau book and most recently, Dragon Riders for the new Eldar codex (the mounts being a new species, not the riders) and it does seem like the writers, rules makers & sculptors enjoy 'new things' just as much as we do.

'New things' is not really accurate, most* of those come straight out of Rogue Trader...

*Warp Beasts/Khymerae, Razorwings & Jokaero are in the original rulebook, Exodire Dragon Riders are from the 2nd edition Eldar codex, Demiurg are arguably a Squat replacement.

Beppo1234
23-07-2012, 12:18
haven't read the whole thread, so my apologies if it has been said:

I agree, not enough truly alien aliens in 40k. Tyranids are the only non humanoid faction in the game, the rest are.

As some have said, Tau is one of the best way to introduce new xenos units, without having to develop an entire line. It's a good starting point. If new Tau xenos factions prove popular, which depends both on the quality of the models, and also the rules, then they can perhaps be expanded like the Kroot and the forge world additions.

Another thing I see, is as 6th makes it's rounds, and various armies finish their plastic upgrades which started prior to 5th. I could see GW refocusing design and production on new factions. Though not large ones. The new allies rules really open up a lot of doors for small allied xenos factions in the form of a mercenary type position to be introduced, maybe through single plastic boxes with necessary upgrades all in one. Moreover, these xenos factions could be introduced via WD. If they prove popular enough, GW could look into expanding that particular range of minis.

we have discussed this a number of times on the forum, but there are a lot of cool factions that could served with small, but variable, squad sized boxes. They could be Xenos, or the other less seen imperial factions... ie. AdMec could be serviced with a single box that could make maybe 5 guys, and lots of leftover to bash with guard and marines.

I hope that when GW gets 6th rolling, that they take this route. It's always cool to have a small new faction popping up from time to time in the narrative, and in reality.

boogle
23-07-2012, 12:38
I would love them to do it, but i get the feeling we'll most likely see them start off as Tau allies (ala Kroot and Vespid)

Hrud and Squats would be the most likely to get the full army treatment IF they ever went down that route

Sai-Lauren
23-07-2012, 13:05
When 3e and 4e were released I spent alot of time with staff and stores working on expanding the army base. It was simple economic sense that if we could achieve so well with Marines, then even a few percent increase in players of other armies would make hitting target so much easier. It was extremely hard work and ultimately not as successful as it needed to be; veterans know their minds, and indeed constitute the majority of xenos players, so pushing them is a no-no. Kids love marines for a huge variety of reasons. Even during major new release periods you will sell Marines hands over fist. Even in trade accounts with no previous GW presence marines always sell substantially more than any other product, and with no real pushing.

Somehow Marines press all the buttons. We also have to remember that the vast majority of GWs lines would make most cottage/garage industries quite happy with turnover, its just relatively speaking that Marines do so well.
I don't doubt that Marines are an iconic image for 40k (hard design lines, bright colours, heroic descriptions), but they've been made pretty much the only iconic image for it, rather than one of many. And the Imperium will always be the focus, because it's the easiest part of the 40k universe for us humans to relate to.

But part of the newcomers liking Marines is that they're one of the armies on every single demo gaming board (and have been for years), and I bet if you walked into any GW store, anywhere in the world, the person describing them would make them out to be the great heroes, rather than having roughly equivalent armies for every one and saying "ok, which do you like the look of?"

Basically, Marines popularity for newcomers can be summed up with one question - why be Jimmy Olsen if you can be Superman?

In RT era, Marines were heavily promoted, but the other races got a lot of coverage too. Then second edition came along, and really started the Marine-centric position.

And I'd suggest that there's not really any such thing as a new sales area - at best there's areas with minimal exposure that havn't been explored yet, but some people in there will still have been influenced - and 40k is pretty much "That game with Marines, and other things".

I think it'd be quite interesting to plot now many people actively play each army vs time since first purchase for both 40k and WFB - I'd bet there's a massive spike for Marines between 0 and 3 years, whilst for every other army and WFB, the armies would be a lot lower, but fairly stable across time and roughly equivalent with each other (save for a small bulge for each army at however long it's been since their last army list release :) ), and that Marines after 3-5 years drop back to a roughly similar level as everyone else.

But GW's basically focused on trying to bring in each new intake of school year 8 or whatever, and selling them stuff for a year or so before they get interested in something else and everything goes in the bottom of the wardrobe, rather than trying to keep people longer term and sell them things from multiple different ranges, into their late-teens/early 20s when they'll normally have disposable income of their own, and can afford the really big, expensive stuff.

Plus, the people working in design now are the people who've been brought up with Marines as the focus, so to them, it's the natural base state of the game, and improving the position of the other armies won't feel right to them.

After all, if I wandered into the design studio with a free hand, I'd do what felt right to me - and that would mean Marines would get pushed onto the back-burner in favour of some of the less-explored territory. :)

snake-eyez
23-07-2012, 15:54
And here lies the rub. If we didn't have 4 of the Space Marine codecies, we would probably have a Sisters book right now, at the least. We might even have room for 2-3 xenos or other Imperium institutions in the mix.

Sorry to point this out, but you're actually wrong. Its 6 marine codices !!

Along with vanilla marines, theres also BA, SW, BT, DA, and our favourite of them all, GK.

Power armour armies are those simple models that aren't too hard to paint (since its all basic armour), are relatively strong, so you dont need so many models, and they're the good guys (supposedly). All this comes together as a reason so many young kids start with marines first.

I had a marine army when I was young, and when I got back into the hobby, I found my old marine models, so my first army again when getting back into it was vanilla marines. Now I have Tau as well to try to field something different (I took my tau army to a tournament with 50 people in it a few months ago and there was only one other Tau army there).

Matt Ward writing the marine variant codices isn't helping with variety either. Maybe they should get him to do the next Tyranids codex like his GK one, then we will really have swarms of tyranids everywhere.

Charistoph
23-07-2012, 16:51
Sorry to point this out, but you're actually wrong. Its 6 marine codices !!

Along with vanilla marines, theres also BA, SW, BT, DA, and our favourite of them all, GK.

Power armour armies are those simple models that aren't too hard to paint (since its all basic armour), are relatively strong, so you dont need so many models, and they're the good guys (supposedly). All this comes together as a reason so many young kids start with marines first.

I had a marine army when I was young, and when I got back into the hobby, I found my old marine models, so my first army again when getting back into it was vanilla marines. Now I have Tau as well to try to field something different (I took my tau army to a tournament with 50 people in it a few months ago and there was only one other Tau army there).

Matt Ward writing the marine variant codices isn't helping with variety either. Maybe they should get him to do the next Tyranids codex like his GK one, then we will really have swarms of tyranids everywhere.

I didn't say there were only 4 marine codecies, I said "if we didn't have 4 of the marine codecies...", meaning to toss 4 of them, specifically BT, DA, BA, and SW, and we would have more room in the line up and less total cycle time.

Drasanil
23-07-2012, 18:09
There are also cases when the best way to deal with a problem is to ally with factions that have cooperated (from the IOM) in the past with the eldar, but somehow they attack both the enemy and the IOM faction despite the fact the useless fighting could endanger their very objectives.

Yes, it's a known eldar tactic to help one side win then wipe out the victor while they're weakened, they normally do that when they wanted both people off a given planet, just as often they pop in and pop out with out saying a word, using one half of a general example whilst ignoring the other doesn't prove a thing.


We see this in the HH novels. Like when they try to warn the primarchs(outside Eldrad) they use the most obscure, the most miss interpreted way, the most way that will tell nothing ,or fail, or make the primarchs angry with them.They don't have a say that they don't know how to communicate with humans when the DAOT of humanity existed for tens of millenia in contact with eldar at that point when most humans are at stone age level.

Probably not the best example. Black Library HH novels are written from the perspective of the protagonist and generally try to make them relatable. Having them ignoring a plain warning and acting like a completely belligerent, ignorant, war mongering fanatic would be counter-productive to that. Incidentally that is exactly how the Imperium happens to be portrayed in the general fluff and is realistically the sort of attitude they foster in their population.

Eldar think humans are quite stupid and generally approach them as such, being quite blunt about what they want such as "you're squatting on our maiden world get off" or "don't touch those ruins they're dangerous". Most of their in game quotes addressed to humans from the books are along those lines, that BL takes artistic license to muddy the waters is a different matter. You're not going to claim Imperial officers as a whole a gallant well balanced men of honour with out a single mean-spirited bone in their body simply because Gaunt was written as such are you?


Show me a craftworld ,any craftworld,in fluff, that takes not too cause maximum harm to third parties even relatively peaceful third parties.

Show me a craftworld that does. We've had examples of craftworlds stepping in to save imperial worlds because the Imperium wasn't in a position to do so, we've had examples of eldar relocating defeated human populaces instead of simply wiping them out, we've had examples of eldar sticking to their alliances and not turning on their allies later on like in the case of Tallarn.


Also the eldar will probably attack any attempt to modernize, or reform to be less cruel or less corrupt.There plenty examples in fluff.

Uh? The only real case I remember reading of that was Lady Malice stealing an STC to prove herself to Vect otherwise, you've pretty much described what the Imperium does to itself on a daily a basis.

Veteran Sergeant
23-07-2012, 18:19
There's no Sisters codex because there's never been sufficient interest in the army. It's as simple as that. Every Xenos race has gotten a new codex since the last new stand alone codex that included Sisters in it. In fact, the Sisters have only ever had one codex book to themselves, and that was at the tail end of 2nd Edition. GW tried to drum up sales by lumping them in with Inquisitors and Storm Troopers and even allowed them to take IGuard allies and it didn't work.

Some projects may get a bit of the back burner treatment because of the extra Space Marine codex books (but really, Dark Angels and Black Templars are still running on 4th Edition lists) and models, but the Sisters aren't one of them. If there were less Marine Codex books, there would just be newer books and models for the races that actually sold models at one point. Tau. Orks. Tyranids. Eldar. The White Dwarf codex for Sisters was a "Go away, stop bothering us" release. Rules for you to use your models (since they learned from the Squats that just plain erasing an army is a bad idea if you don't want to answer questions about it for the next twenty years), less reason for you to hound them about it at conventions and tournaments.

AlexHolker
23-07-2012, 19:31
There's no Sisters codex because there's never been sufficient interest in the army. It's as simple as that. Every Xenos race has gotten a new codex since the last new stand alone codex that included Sisters in it. In fact, the Sisters have only ever had one codex book to themselves, and that was at the tail end of 2nd Edition. GW tried to drum up sales by lumping them in with Inquisitors and Storm Troopers and even allowed them to take IGuard allies and it didn't work.
They tried to drum up sales by doing something that was never going to drum up sales. What Sisters need isn't a bunch of hangers-on like Inquisitors, Storm Troopers or Guard, it's a plastic Troops choice. As long as they're stuck with expensive, unposable metals instead of multipart plastics like every other army in either game, they're never going to be an affordable army.

boogle
23-07-2012, 19:53
Same could have been said of Grey Knights, and not they are probably one of the top selling 40k armies

O'Mont'au
23-07-2012, 19:59
Not to mention that the Sisters models are quite old and ugly as hell. Seriously, if you can't get people to buy chicks in armor, then you're sculpting them wrong.

snake-eyez
23-07-2012, 20:06
I didn't say there were only 4 marine codecies, I said "if we didn't have 4 of the marine codecies...", meaning to toss 4 of them, specifically BT, DA, BA, and SW, and we would have more room in the line up and less total cycle time.

Sorry, not sure how I missed that when reading it.

But yeah, I too would prefer it if they tossed out four of them, it would be nice if there was more of a mix of other races in the tournament and gaming scene rather than just different coloured space marines using different coloured marine codices.

Bannik
23-07-2012, 20:45
When the warhammer giant kit came out I loved it and the first thing that came to my head was 40k Giant alien race, each Giant Xeno kit can make you a single HQ, troop, elite etc... so a playable army could just have 3 Giant Models... its original at least.

I remember I read somewhere there was some kind of giant Blue alien who helped some imps out of trouble but I am not sure anyways Yes 40k needs more Xenos.

boogle
23-07-2012, 20:47
I remember I read somewhere there was some kind of giant Blue alien who helped some imps out of trouble but I am not sure anyways Yes 40k needs more Xenos.

Roboute Guilliman :D:p

Bannik
23-07-2012, 20:56
Roboute Guilliman :D:p

:D Good one.

Eldoriath
23-07-2012, 21:44
I'd also like to see more unique alien races, not just opposites. I have this idea of an alien race that evolved really fast and was over time diverted into separat sub-races that waged war on one another. Then a lurking, dominating fifth specie emerged and dominated the other four races into slavery, leading them under the call "For the greatest of us!", which means that the wars are waged on the behalf of the dominating specie.

I think the name Uats would fit them nicely and fill a niche not yet filled. A high-tech race that don't wish to kill every one else, just enslave them under the dominating specie.

/Joke

Seriusly though, there are really plenty of alien races in the 40k universe, just only that few are represented on the tabletop with rules. I wouldn't mind seeing more unique-ish races like tau (I mean that they are not space orks/elves/undead/knights/farmers with guns) and nids (okay, not so unique-ish, but at least not a medieval fantasy copy-paste). But there are already 14 armies iirc and the system have a hard time sustaining more then that since 14 is already pushing the limit as it is.

Charistoph
23-07-2012, 21:48
There's no Sisters codex because there's never been sufficient interest in the army. It's as simple as that. Every Xenos race has gotten a new codex since the last new stand alone codex that included Sisters in it. In fact, the Sisters have only ever had one codex book to themselves, and that was at the tail end of 2nd Edition. GW tried to drum up sales by lumping them in with Inquisitors and Storm Troopers and even allowed them to take IGuard allies and it didn't work.

Alex has the right of it:


They tried to drum up sales by doing something that was never going to drum up sales. What Sisters need isn't a bunch of hangers-on like Inquisitors, Storm Troopers or Guard, it's a plastic Troops choice. As long as they're stuck with expensive, unposable metals instead of multipart plastics like every other army in either game, they're never going to be an affordable army.

When the points cost is relatively cheap as chips, but the model cost is as expensive as hell, you only get the people who can afford them or the slow builders getting them.

Personally, that one fact kept me out of 40K for 2-3 more years, as no other army inspired me. Once they get some plastic models going, I will start building them as soon as I can.

Beppo1234
23-07-2012, 21:56
They tried to drum up sales by doing something that was never going to drum up sales. What Sisters need isn't a bunch of hangers-on like Inquisitors, Storm Troopers or Guard, it's a plastic Troops choice. As long as they're stuck with expensive, unposable metals instead of multipart plastics like every other army in either game, they're never going to be an affordable army.


maybe like I said in my post: Sister could be marketed as an 'allies only' line of minis. There's not enough demand to support a full line, but there is certainly enough people out there who would appreciate at least a single plastics box of sisters with rules to play them.

The more I think about 'allies only' small factions, the more I like it. Small factions, covered by a single plastic box set (which could cover troop/FA/HS options with appropriate bits) and a FC HQ. Three or four of different flavours of factions would be really cool, and be used to offset various weakness' of the core armies.

sisters, squats, GS cults and other forgotten factions could be reintroduced this way, and new factions could be released as well. So small releases, a single plastic box set + a FC HQ, and if popular enough, those that have demand, can be expanded.

boogle
23-07-2012, 22:02
maybe like I said in my post: Sister could be marketed as an 'allies only' line of minis. There's not enough demand to support a full line, but there is certainly enough people out there who would appreciate at least a single plastics box of sisters with rules to play them.

The more I think about 'allies only' small factions, the more I like it. Small factions, covered by a single plastic box set (which could cover troop/FA/HS options with appropriate bits) and a FC HQ. Three or four of different flavours of factions would be really cool, and be used to offset various weakness' of the core armies.

sisters, squats, GS cults and other forgotten factions could be reintroduced this way, and new factions could be released as well. So small releases, a single plastic box set + a FC HQ, and if popular enough, those that have demand, can be expanded.

Once again i would say that Grey Knights were comparable, when they were all in metal, now plastic tech has improved for GW, and the rumours that at least 3-4 units that are in metal have had the plastic treatment, then maybe they could do the same as GK and sales would improve dramatically.

Beppo1234
23-07-2012, 22:21
Once again i would say that Grey Knights were comparable, when they were all in metal, now plastic tech has improved for GW, and the rumours that at least 3-4 units that are in metal have had the plastic treatment, then maybe they could do the same as GK and sales would improve dramatically.

indeed, I agree. But that being said, they could drop a number of small single box factions, marketed solely as allies. And from the another thread, Arbites would fit in this role nicely as well. Sisters, squats, GS cults, Arbites and some alien factions, all supported by single box lines would be cool, and could be expanded upon in the future if people show enough love. Just adds more flavour to the universe

(I like others, have felt that the GK should never have been their own army. For me, seeing more than a single squad of them in an army is too much. They should have been a 0-1 in an inquisition book, rather the the exact opposite that was produced... but that's just my opinion after 20 years). I would much rather have seen them in the form I'm describing. A small faction supported only by a single box to be used as an allied contingent to another army

tu33y
24-07-2012, 08:54
well seeing as how much of the 40k design process is "watch starwars, do that", maybe we could see a clone army? or a "wet" undead analogue (like the Tomb kings/necron "dry") maybe using one powerful techno-alien psyker and a horde of robot drone soldiers like the Trade Federation (oh... tau).

Oh i dont know, havent Heinlen or Herbert written any OTHER books they can lift wholesale from then defend this "original IP" vigourously like Scientology hiding photos of *** ***** surrounded by dead **** boys dressed as aliens?

i think everyone should forget about Squats... they are silly and tere is no way they could do them to the standard of the other ranges without them looking so.

Sisters however should be given plenty of attention. as should Kroot. I think there is a large scope for an independent Kroot codex- the low tech but violent horde is a bit of a vacant spot.

and I know we are moaning about Imperial codex's but i will say this-

I think there is a Catachan Codex out there in the ether that will be awesome AND fun to play and play against.

Beppo1234
24-07-2012, 09:09
I think squats could work as little men, in big robots


and I still like the idea of vintage sci fi octopuses with fish bowl 'glass' helmets that would control various other factions troops. Psychers who subjugate anything with low leadership as drone canon fodder

IJW
24-07-2012, 09:21
There's not enough demand to support a full line

Based on? This is pure opinion.

Did you see the amount of fuss last year when someone's concept sketch fan art got mistaken as an official leak?

Beppo1234
24-07-2012, 09:27
Based on? This is pure opinion.

Did you see the amount of fuss last year when someone's concept sketch fan art got mistaken as an official leak?

I'm just sayin, if there were, they would have pumped out a full new line, like the rest of the factions. It's a conclusion I've reached out of observation. If it's low on GWs priority list, then demand for them is lagging behind all the other lines they currently produce, as well as any new ones they release until, or if, the sisters get updated. They've obviously decided that it would be better not to pursue sisters on a large scale, and we all know what drives GW and 40k developments.

A.T.
24-07-2012, 10:27
GW tried to drum up sales by lumping them in with Inquisitors and Storm Troopers and even allowed them to take IGuard allies and it didn't work.Not exactly. The WH book was an inquisition book, a follow on from codex:DH with the grey knight element replaced with sisters.
Stormtroopers and inquisitors were the core of the line, sisters/knights were just the in-book supporting element for players who weren't playing marines/guard with inquisitional support.

There was a fair bit of anticipation when the WD codex was announced - huge threads. All died away after release though, and the line going slowly with it.


As for marines - they get enough demand that forgeworld have released practically nothing else of late. Perhaps the lineup will change as GW's prices start to force their audience to an older demographic - young players simply don't have a house to remortgage.

AlexHolker
24-07-2012, 11:12
I'm just sayin, if there were, they would have pumped out a full new line, like the rest of the factions. It's a conclusion I've reached out of observation. If it's low on GWs priority list, then demand for them is lagging behind all the other lines they currently produce, as well as any new ones they release until, or if, the sisters get updated. They've obviously decided that it would be better not to pursue sisters on a large scale, and we all know what drives GW and 40k developments.
If it's low on GWs priority list, they think demand for them is lagging.* There are a couple of reasons they might think this is true: they might be deciding by fiat that their market is full of bigots (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/9489-The-Racism-Blame-Game), or they might look at how poorly a malnourished product line sells and incorrectly blaming that on the product and not their complete failure to produce the one goddamn thing they actually need.

You could try to claim that this is actually accurate, but this is the company that decided that a Baneblade-sized sprue of Limited Edition Skull Rocks was a better use of scarce resources than a Rhino-sized sprue of HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support.

They are not alone in this sort of garbage - I went from being the most vocal advocate for Mantic's celestial army to writing the army off completely pretty much overnight when they decided to do three things: make the angels men, despite this niche already being done cheaper (by Ex-Illis, for pete's sake!); give women only a single unit of an archetype that literally treats them as second-class citizens; and choose the boring, pseudo-historical men-at-arms as the unit most likely to get a plastic kit.

*Or they're just stuck in the 18th century.

yabbadabba
24-07-2012, 11:22
This is turning into "Despite having all the figures and a global business which reports back to the centre, GW knows nothing and I know more because what happens where I play must be the same everywhere. I am right." :rolleyes:

GW's release policy had become more complicated and structured in the last few years I was there, and there is little or no sign of that having changed. This is the one time when having the bean counters in charge is a good thing.

Beppo1234
24-07-2012, 11:28
it's what gw thinks that matters, not reality.

but back on topic, yes more aliens, more factions in general would be a good thing. For me, I truly see allies as a good way to introduce minor factions, avoiding the need to create a whole new, fully fleshed out army.

Zabousta
24-07-2012, 11:52
I'd also like to see more unique alien races, not just opposites. I have this idea of an alien race that evolved really fast and was over time diverted into separat sub-races that waged war on one another. Then a lurking, dominating fifth specie emerged and dominated the other four races into slavery, leading them under the call "For the greatest of us!", which means that the wars are waged on the behalf of the dominating specie.

I think the name Uats would fit them nicely and fill a niche not yet filled. A high-tech race that don't wish to kill every one else, just enslave them under the dominating specie.

/Joke

Seriusly though, there are really plenty of alien races in the 40k universe, just only that few are represented on the tabletop with rules. I wouldn't mind seeing more unique-ish races like tau (I mean that they are not space orks/elves/undead/knights/farmers with guns) and nids (okay, not so unique-ish, but at least not a medieval fantasy copy-paste). But there are already 14 armies iirc and the system have a hard time sustaining more then that since 14 is already pushing the limit as it is.


Really, if all the alien races were playable it would solve some of the problems. Why create new armies when they can't keep up on the ones already out? Updating the Tau book would help immensely here.

otakuzoku
24-07-2012, 12:49
If they ever did do an alien race (other than ones we know about.) I'd like them to be totally alien, that is not just humans with funny heads and different coloured skin. Something that is almost so alien to look at it is hard to actually say it is a life-form. Not sure exactly how they would do that mind you, but it would certainly be different. For what it is worth I think a big opportunity was missed when they re-did Necrons, they could easily have made them more alien, remember all those old rumours about the original Necrontyr not being bipeds?

You would want something like the Tholian in star trek

otakuzoku
24-07-2012, 13:25
The Tau are a missed Opportunity Humans are part of the Tau empire. quit with the sterilizing planets rubbish they was made up for dawn of war. and show them as actual members like the kroot. a fine cast box of them to integrate in to fire warrior squads or in command of Hammer heads. you could work in Interex survivors the managed to escape the Luna Wolves during the Great Crusade. along with Diasporex

Cthell
24-07-2012, 13:56
The Tau are a missed Opportunity Humans are part of the Tau empire. quit with the sterilizing planets rubbish they was made up for dawn of war. and show them as actual members like the kroot. a fine cast box of them to integrate in to fire warrior squads or in command of Hammer heads. you could work in Interex survivors the managed to escape the Luna Wolves during the Great Crusade. along with Diasporex

Well, Imperial Armour 4 includes rules for human auxiliaries IIRC; they're just guardsmen with carapace armour, but the sergeants could be given pulse rifles/carbines.

My favourite bit of the old fluff was a piece saying how the Tau "trick" people into defecting by offering a better standard of living, shiny new toys, etc... Always reminded me of Apple, what with Tau tech generally being white, with clean lines ;)

Aryllon
24-07-2012, 14:54
Well, Imperial Armour 4 includes rules for human auxiliaries IIRC; they're just guardsmen with carapace armour, but the sergeants could be given pulse rifles/carbines.

My favourite bit of the old fluff was a piece saying how the Tau "trick" people into defecting by offering a better standard of living, shiny new toys, etc... Always reminded me of Apple, what with Tau tech generally being white, with clean lines ;)

Naaaaah, I'm reading on a iPad and have never been brainwashed by the Apple bandwagon... :D
Not lets get back on topic. It's for the greater good :shifty:

Cthell
24-07-2012, 15:18
What about some of the species detailed in Xenology? Thyrrus would be pretty interesting - multi-coloured battle-slugs with high-powered weaponry and impenetrable tactics make for an interesting army

ForgottenLore
24-07-2012, 15:19
Well, Imperial Armour 4 includes rules for human auxiliaries IIRC; they're just guardsmen with carapace armour, but the sergeants could be given pulse rifles/carbines.

it was IA3, not 4, but yeah, they are basically guardsmen (I'm not even sure they had carapace armor). What I always liked doing with them was a small squad with EMP grenades, which is something that may be very useful again now in 6th.

Many people have pointed out though, that for humans to be included in the next codex, they need to fill some battlefield role that fire warriors or kroot don't, otherwise you can just convert some figs and use them as FWs.

aim
24-07-2012, 15:21
I know people don't want the enemy to be a fringe enemy, but hey..

What if the Tyranids aren't like an intergalactic locust swarm, what if they are looking for a new home? What if they aren't invading, but running from something else. That would be a pretty cool way to introduce a new race. The big threat that everyone frets about is actually running from something they lost a fight with...


Many people have pointed out though, that for humans to be included in the next codex, they need to fill some battlefield role that fire warriors or kroot don't, otherwise you can just convert some figs and use them as FWs.

Why would you do that though? I love the FW models, they look really nice.

Sai-Lauren
24-07-2012, 15:27
Well, Imperial Armour 4 includes rules for human auxiliaries IIRC; they're just guardsmen with carapace armour, but the sergeants could be given pulse rifles/carbines.

My favourite bit of the old fluff was a piece saying how the Tau "trick" people into defecting by offering a better standard of living, shiny new toys, etc... Always reminded me of Apple, what with Tau tech generally being white, with clean lines ;)

Thinking of defecting from the Emperor? There's an app for that... ;)

More seriously, I don't think gue'lla (or however it's spelt) would need that much, the odd human hand holding a pulse carbine/rifle for a sergeant/officer and some Tau grenade packs for the troopers.

Cthell
24-07-2012, 15:31
it was IA3, not 4, but yeah, they are basically guardsmen (I'm not even sure they had carapace armor). What I always liked doing with them was a small squad with EMP grenades, which is something that may be very useful again now in 6th.

Many people have pointed out though, that for humans to be included in the next codex, they need to fill some battlefield role that fire warriors or kroot don't, otherwise you can just convert some figs and use them as FWs.

You're right, it is IA3, and they don't get carapace armour. However, they don't get EMP grenades either, and imperial troops always hit them on 3's in combat.

I'd guess the niche they were meant to fill is assaulting into cover, as they can still buy frag grenades (raising the cost to 7pts a model)

With 6th Ed rules, it looks like they might have become useful for clearing units out of buildings - the ability to inflict 12D6 S3 AP- hits on a unit inside is pretty nice if you can find a way to get them there. They also have WS and I 3 too, so they are slightly better in combat (particularly against orks and other WS3 units)

*EDIT* for those interested in such things, they are called Gue'vesa'la; the sergeants are Gue'vesa'ui

ForgottenLore
24-07-2012, 15:42
You're right, it is IA3, and they don't get carapace armour. However, they don't get EMP grenades either,
The FW version couldn't take EMPs? Huh, I forgot that. The old chapter approved version where they were first introduced could.

N810
24-07-2012, 16:22
Bring back the Space Slann :D
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Slann

also a Xeno mercinary mercany army would be awesome. :eek:

otakuzoku
24-07-2012, 22:57
i was on about fire warriors as members of a Fire warrior unit as equals. i think the next tau codex may establish the tau as Primus inter pares (First among equals) with the tau as the main driving force.