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Moss
22-07-2012, 21:25
XXXXX
YYHYY ZZ
YYYYY ZZ

Unit Y contains a hero (H). Unit X wipes out all normal troops in unit Y. Does unit Z step up into contact with the hero, or is it stranded?

I ask because page 61 of the rulebook, under the heading Shrinking Units and Multiple Fights, it talks about units stepping up to remain in combat (especially when they charge the rear of a unit and kill the whole back rank). However the next section, No More Foes, says that a unit may be stranded (and out of combat) after wiping out an entire unit. Technically, after the normal troops are dead, isn't the remaining character its own unit? Does killing the normal troops consitute wiping out a unit, stranding one or more combatant?

Mr_Rose
22-07-2012, 22:27
Technically the Slann must step up to its unit X.
As for the units Z, this is pretty much a toss-up. Yes, the characters are their own units, but they were also part of the unit that just mostly disappeared. They are Schrödinger's Unit.
While the gamist position is that each initiative step is instantaneous, and units Y&T go from existing to not existing in one instant with no intermediaries and that therefore No More Foes is the technically correct way to go, I am not a bureaucrat. I personally advocate the narrativist position in which the dudes in the doomed units are disappearing o er time, and that the flanking units would see this and follow them and would certainly not stop in the middle of a fight just because their latest target claims he wasn't technically fighting them, so they don't need to attack just yet.

T10
22-07-2012, 22:52
You nudge the (attacking) units by as short a distance as possible to maintain contact. See p. 61.

Blkc57
23-07-2012, 06:36
They are Schrödinger's Unit.

I love this line too much for my own good.

Archis
23-07-2012, 11:37
You nudge the (attacking) units by as short a distance as possible to maintain contact. See p. 61.

Agree with this. No more foes happens if you cannot nudge the units together due to impassable terrain or something similar.

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Moss
23-07-2012, 13:38
Agree with this. No more foes happens if you cannot nudge the units together due to impassable terrain or something similar.


Not neccesarily. In the below combat, if unit Y is wiped out, then unit Z is removed from combat due to No More Foes.

AAAAA
AAAAA
XX YY ZZ
XX YY ZZ

My original question(s) is(/are) basically whether a character who's unit has been wiped out is left as its own unit. Does the death of the normal troopers constitute a "wipe out?" Does this leave a flanking unit with No More Foes?

T10
23-07-2012, 21:43
Yes, but this is a significantly different situation from the OP.

I see what you're getting at, but it's a bit like stepping into a discussion on wether or not you can make a march move after a swift reform and pointing out that you can't march through a river. :)

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2012, 21:56
Hmm. I was about to agree that you simply nudge the unit forward but I was looking through the FAQs and I came across this one, which made me pause:


Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any characters remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been removed, any remaining characters will count as a new unit. Note that this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units within 6" (including the newly formed unit of character(s)) as the unit has been destroyed.

My gut reaction is simply that the unit is nudged forward but I'm not sure this FAQ supports that...

T10
23-07-2012, 22:23
Bear in mind that a character is considered to be "in combat" even if he is himself not in contact with an enemy model, as long as his unit is enganged in close combat (see Magic Missiles). With this in mind it makes sense to reposition any character(s) in the unit to form the "front rank" as the rank-and-file are removed as casualties; and once this has been done: Let the nudgening commence!

-T10

Lord Inquisitor
23-07-2012, 22:33
Playing devil's advocate here for a moment T10 how do you respond to the argument that as soon as you kill the last of the troopers in the unit, the unit ceases to be (causing panic checks etc) - the hero counts as a new unit. But extension via "no more foes" the flanking unit is no longer in contact with any unit it was in combat with before and therefore out of combat?

Moss
23-07-2012, 22:47
Yes, but this is a significantly different situation from the OP.

I see what you're getting at, but it's a bit like stepping into a discussion on wether or not you can make a march move after a swift reform and pointing out that you can't march through a river. :)

You're right; this isn't what I initially described. This was in response to the post by Archis suggesting that No More Foes is used if you cannot nudge the units together due to impassable terrain or something similar.

Lord Inquisitor nailed exactly what I was getting at (sorry if I wasn't being clear on what I was getting at). I realize now that the second diagram (the one with the Slann) is not different than the first; the Slann would step up to face the front attackers. However, I maintain that the flankers in either example are now stranded out of combat, as stupid and counter-intuitive as it may seem.

Archis
23-07-2012, 23:33
I see what you mean. I'd agree that if at no point could a model from the flank count as being able to attack the slaan, then they wouldn't slide in. Meaning there would need to be at least two ranks of models around the slaan that all get wiped out at the same initiative order.

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Moss
23-07-2012, 23:42
I'm going to edit my initial post and remove the part about the slann. Hopefully it will prevent confusion.

T10
24-07-2012, 06:53
[COLOR="#EE82EE"]Playing devil's advocate here for a moment T10 how do you respond to the argument that as soon as you kill the last of the troopers in the unit, the unit ceases to be (causing panic checks etc) - the hero counts as a new unit. But extension via "no more foes" the flanking unit is no longer in contact with any unit it was in combat with before and therefore out of combat?

I don't think its wise to treat the new character-only unit as getting a completely fresh start. It should most assuredly inherit the conditions that applied to the original unit: If the combined unit was feing then the character-unit keeps fleeing. If the combined unit was subject to a hex spell, then the character-unit is subject to the hex spell. If the combined unit was in combat with one or more enemy units then the character-unit is in combat with those units too.

It's not a very exotic situation; quite frequently a combined unit will start out with its character in contact with the enemy, and over the course of the battle it may lose all its rank-and-file troops. I've not seen anything to suggest that the characters should be moved out of contact with the enemy because he is now a new unit and units cannot get into close combat without making a charge move!

-T10