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View Full Version : Do Daemons become tactically simple, less enjoyable?



Desalbert
25-07-2012, 15:23
Hey guys, just back into 40k, and had a great 1000pt game as Dark Eldar vs Tau-- Great fun, and solidified that I am MOST certainly a gamer who thinks in, feels good about, and sets plans based mostly on close combat. It's just how my 40k mind ticks. Now, I lost the game 2-1, but that's besides the point. I felt a bit underwhelmed with my shooting and with vehicles, but I think that might be chalked up to my lust for limb-tearing.

After the game, I started thinking-- hey, maybe Daemons would be a great army for me to take on! So I dug into them a bit more.

As a gamer who enjoys the random side of battle, the Deep Strike waves (and praying to the dark gods beforehand) is a massive fun booster, no question. So from that aspect, I'm gung ho! Dig the models, love the idea of the true Gods wreaking havoc against mortals and their pitiful ant-hill-empires...lastly, I love big creatures-- all the greater daemons, the daemon princes, soul grinder etc.

However, i'm a little worried that, in ways, the game might get simplified by playing Daemons such that, there come to be few tactics other than, DS, CHARGE and slaughter all. Perhaps there's no room to mix it up, with just one major way to achieve my end goal.

So do Daemon players run the risk of becoming stale with frequent use? Are they possessed of less tactical depth than other armies (especially as the game goes on?)

Would they therefore bore me or my opponent? (Regular opponents are Tau, 'Crons, and 'Nids in the friendly group)

For Daemon players: What makes you keep coming back to Daemons? What makes your opponent enjoy playing against them.


(PS, I'm the kind of guy who sometimes enjoys losing more than winning in a casual game, as I always feel okay when a friend leaves the gaming room with a bit of confidence, instead of frustration-- to that end, I won't build power lists and would avoid Special Characters in this army-- these being just additional facts.)

Thanks lads

Sqallum
25-07-2012, 15:44
I used to play against Daemons. Part of their attraction, as you said is their pure randomness in gameplay. I also enjoyed (when I briefly played Daemons before returning to my SM) the level of custimization on the big creatures. And it is fun to nail the enemy leader with Skulltaker.

Back to the point... your game build depends on the boredom you will get. As I can guess you like shooting a mono-Khorne build will probably bore you and your opponent, but it does look cool as they charge towards the enemy gunline. I would suggest a Tzeentch/Khorne build for a good balance of assault and combat. The styles of the two daemons are very different, so will make for a an interesting army/battle for you and your opponent.

As for tactical depth Daemons actually have a lot. You must always think carefully about your choice of 1st/2nd wave and a lot more besides.

Hope this helps :)

Desalbert
25-07-2012, 15:55
I used to play against Daemons. Part of their attraction, as you said is their pure randomness in gameplay. I also enjoyed (when I briefly played Daemons before returning to my SM) the level of custimization on the big creatures. And it is fun to nail the enemy leader with Skulltaker.

As I can guess you like shooting a mono-Khorne build

Thanks so much for your response-- Actually, I doubt I'd ever run mono-anything, at least until the army grew by leaps in size, simply to keep variety and challenge myself to adapt with less than adequate tools. So no mono-builds for me :)

Desalbert
25-07-2012, 15:57
DOUBLE POST (apologies!)

Vedar
25-07-2012, 16:59
Daemons are not tactically simple at all. Tactically simple is a SW gunline or GK paladin spam. As you never know quite what will be DS or where playing Daemons is more tactical than most armies as you need to think on the fly with what you have on the board.

Also I play alot of Tzeentch. I like horrors even though they cost too much. Daemon Princes with bolt are good to fly over a vehicle, vector strike and then bolt it in rear armor.

If playing GK is like getting an uncooked steak, 2 potatoes and broccoli to cook dinner, playing Deamons is like getting a pickle, a slice of cheese and chicken feet to cook dinner.

Desalbert
25-07-2012, 18:40
Daemons are not tactically simple at all. Tactically simple is a SW gunline or GK paladin spam. As you never know quite what will be DS or where playing Daemons is more tactical than most armies as you need to think on the fly with what you have on the board.

Also I play alot of Tzeentch. I like horrors even though they cost too much. Daemon Princes with bolt are good to fly over a vehicle, vector strike and then bolt it in rear armor.

If playing GK is like getting an uncooked steak, 2 potatoes and broccoli to cook dinner, playing Deamons is like getting a pickle, a slice of cheese and chicken feet to cook dinner.

I love it Vedar, I love the metaphor! This really intrigues my senses, it truly does! Thank you.

Infiltraitor
25-07-2012, 18:53
I started playing daemons as a break from the mess that 5th ed CSM turned out to be. As I got more games in with them, I found that I really enjoyed not knowing exactly what tools I would have to work with in order to win my games.
Your forced to learn to be fluid and adapt because you don't know for certain if you'll have the units you want OR even if they'll show up where you want/need them. In line with that...power armored armies get dull. Fast. Basically all the troops are the same and the game had devolved into what special character I was facing as opposed to what army I was up against (doubly so, no). Thematically, daemons never die (they aren't alive to begin with and while I play I have all kinds of fun narratives going on in my head. Im hoping the new CSM codex will bring some of that back, but if not I could play daemons for a while and be satisfied.

"Perils of the Warp? We are the Perils of the Warp."

Try em out, I think you might like em.

Alienfood
25-07-2012, 18:54
The things I like about playing daemons are:

A great variety of units
You have practically 4 different armies under the same roof ( not that it matters now with allies and all, but...)
You can go for speedy or plain brutal CC, or slow tough-necked, or you simply might just wanna blow them away with 30 warpfire rounds dropped into the enemy's lap.
Sure, daemons lack vehicles, but we have the soulgrinder! Try finding an equally cool vehicle in another army ;)

Variety in tactics
The deepstriking deployment offers a great variety of options, instead of just lining up a gunline and slowly advancing for a bash in the middle.
Should I be aggressive and deploy close to him, or should I even tempt myself to drop this unit of 20 bloodletters into his lap, and risking it to DS mishap? The pure joy of seeing the slight panic in a MEQ players eyes when the bloodletters suddenly become priority number one, or they're squad is shish kebab next turn.
Or should I deploy further back, in cover and await his move, before I make up a plan?
Just sooo many options! Although I prefer to deepstrike in within 6" of enemy units, just for giggles ^^

I play for fun, and will probably always do, so I don't mind the daemons not being a top tier army.
They give me fun, and have fun models to paint. Once again the word variety comes up.
A SM army to me is the same model painted over-and-over-and-over-and-over again, with different weapons, but daemons offers more than that :)

The downsides with daemons are that the battles tend to be a bit one-pitched.
Often the battle don't occupy more the 30~40% of the table, as you clogg the enemy in his corner. A waste of good terrain and deployment ;)
That honestly the only boring thing I can think of, from my point of view...

I love daemons and will never stop playing them as long as I play 40k, they have a special place in my heart ^^

GenerationTerrorist
25-07-2012, 21:11
2 months ago, I decided to jump in and start a mono-Nurgle Daemon army. Partly for the challenge and partly for the brilliant characters (Ku'Gath and Epidemius are both in my list) and units and background.
Have to say that in the games I have played with them so far, they are semi-competitive. More importantly, however, always give both my opponent and myself a good game with some "WTF?" moments.
I'm trying to get used to the new rules for 6th Edition for them, but so far so good.

Obviously, you don't have to run a mono-god army! That is part of the fun of the rich tapestry that is Chaos.

Indeed, I have enjoyed my little blessings from Nurgle so much that I have recently sold my entire Grey Knight collection.
From one end of the good-evil scale, to the other! Pleased with my choice :-)

For what it is worth, my army is Ku'Gath, Epidemius, 3 units of 7 Plaguebearers, 3 Nurgle Princes with Wings, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Breath of Chaos and Cloud of Flies. Rocks in at 1490pts and was relatively cheap, in terms of money, to acquire. It has also been quite easy to paint (I'm not great!) so far.

Thoth62
25-07-2012, 22:29
Sadly, I've never played a game against daemons yet. However, I've been playing with chaos for over 10 years, so I remember and own some models from back then, and I picked up some of the new stuff last year, with the intention of starting an army.

That being said, one of the complaints I often heard from daemon players was how they could be very unpredictable in their arrival. To an extent, that hasn't changed, but I can't help but notice that the reserve rules in 6th have made it a lot easier for daemons to arrive earlier in the game. It could actually have a huge impact in their success on the table, being able to count on more of your reserves arriving earlier in the game.

Magicafiend
25-07-2012, 23:43
My first 40k army was daemons and I find its not a rewarding army to play. No matter how well you plan the army just seems to throw you a big middle finger some games and one bad deepstrike, wave roll, or reserve roll can really end the game before it starts. I've had to call so many games on turn 2 after I get the wrong wave then my thirster scatters 12" to his death. Overall it just feels like the army plays itself sometimes. When you get the right units in they can roll, when you don't you end up drip feeding your army and lose. If the rolling to see which wave you get was removed it would help stop us from losing 1/3 of our games right off the bat.

nlive
26-07-2012, 01:10
Well, the addition of chaos marines as battle brothers means you can offset the randomness to a degree.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

Ryorus
26-07-2012, 01:27
Hey Des Albert

Personally i think that there is even MORE of a tactical and Strategic requirement with daemons than most armies purely because they are unreliable when deep striking and somewhat vulnerable. I don't tend to play at competitions or game stores, i tend to just play with friends but even then i can vouch for this. The reasoning behind this is that daemons are vulnerable when the Deep strike and can't assault so placing them is really strategic. Furthermore, this deep striking is even more crucial (imo) due to the new wounds allocation system, since wounds are closest or furthest this makes deep striking important for flanking (especially if their sergent or annoying heavy weapon is at the rear!) Daemons are glass cannons, their units are DEVISTATING if you can pull them off, but you need to think that extra little bit harder due to them being so vulnerable, hence where successful strategies paying off comes in handy. Diversions (yeah okay come shoot my soul grinder, you forgot about my Blood thirster!) to get things into combat etc. AS mentioned above the ability to customize is really great for tailoring your army. I have been told to buy some chaos marines as allies to plug up the flaws in the army but honestly would rather go mono, i like to think they can handle their own. A word of caution though, Daemons struggle greatly against flyers. Only the Blood thirster and Lord of Change can really deal with those, Daemon princes may be monstrous creatures but they are Base strength 5 and only 6 after a 20pt upgrade, even still making it hard to vector stike flyers (6's to glance usually for me against vendettas and storm ravens) but not as bad against others. other than that they are a good army. (i am thinking of using a defense line to fix that)


THat's just me so i say give them a go.

Ryorus

belgarath97
26-07-2012, 03:26
I'm just starting them myself, and I think the randomness of our arrival, between waves and ds make us less likely to become stale. As generals we are forced to be more fluid and tactical in our decisions then our counterparts. We can win or lose the game in so many small ways, I think you will find them enjoyable. So far I am.



A word of caution though, Daemons struggle greatly against flyers. Only the Blood thirster and Lord of Change can really deal with those, Daemon princes may be monstrous creatures but they are Base strength 5 and only 6 after a 20pt upgrade, even still making it hard to vector stike flyers (6's to glance usually for me against vendettas and storm ravens) but not as bad against others. other than that they are a good army. (i am thinking of using a defense line to fix that)


Depends on how you play. My tactic thus far has been to play in my opponents deployment zone. Turn 1 no flyers in the game. Turn 2, flyers can arrive, and if my opponent is good he'll get shooting this turn. More often than not, I can prevent my opponent from shooting turn 3, by denying targets, cause I'm on his side of the board and he has to move 18". Turn 4 he might or might not shoot this turn, again because I know where he has to move to get an arc and I can not be there. If he shoots turn 4, he's not in turn 5, if he didn't he probably is now. etc....

More often then not I am able to keep my opponent to 3 or 4 rounds of shooting in a game with his flyers. But again I play a close combat army and play as close to my enemy as I can.