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View Full Version : Notable flaw/nerf/oversight in the Demon mini-dex



Murphey
28-07-2012, 02:32
Heyo,

I had the opportunity to see the new demon mini-dex today from the august issue of White Dwarf, and I noticed something pretty surprising and disapointing. Specifically, the Tzeentchian demons lost their 4+ invuln save. Flamers and Screamers no longer have their 4+ invuln save, instead, they simply have the standard "Demon" trait which grants them the 5+ invuln.

Personally, this seems like an oversight to me, which doesn't bode particularly well for the quality of these White Dwarf mini-dex updates. I mean, if the guys doing this stuff literally don't know the codex they're updating well enough to know that Tzeentchian units' big thing is they have a higher invuln save, then I'm pretty concerned.

Now, I suppose one could argue that they're trying to bring Tzeentchian models back to the bonus of 3.5 ed, which meant they had more wounds, but that still doesn't fit in line with the theme of the codex they're updating, and just seems weird and unlikely. (Why not make larger changes across all Tzeentchian units then? All they'd have to do is say "Here's their new profile, everything else is the same" and be done with it.)

That being said, the Screamers got some nice love (despite the stupid oversight). But, I always loved the screamers in the Demon codex. Although I am gonna miss the possibility of mass-swarming MCs and melta bombing them to death with the little guys, the fact that they are terminator killers now makes me smile.

~Murphey

Chem-Dog
28-07-2012, 03:27
That, or they've moved away from the MoT = +1 on your Inv Save thing. Could just be a reflection of a direction that will be continued in the CSM book. I don't think it's an oversight and I doubt the guys writing it are unaware of the Codex's content (you're in GW's headquarters, there's bound to be a copy lying about that you can quickly check).

It's also worth noting that Daemons is an Alessio Calvatore Codex, it's been stated that the direction of 6th is very different to 5th (which was also Alessio's), this could be one of the tweaks that follow from this change in heading.

Kurisu313
28-07-2012, 08:04
-The cost dropped by 33%
-kept offense the same
-increased wounds
-dropped the inv by 1

Seems like more than a fair trade to me.

Killgore
28-07-2012, 08:10
I agree that it could now be considered odd, that the book now has a split of tzeentch units with either a 4+ or a 5+ but the changes noted above makes it worth it imho

Azulthar
28-07-2012, 09:22
It's not an oversight...

I'm sure you can expect all Tzeentch units to get +1W instead of the 4+ invulnerable in their new codex. Not that I agree, I feel the 4+ save is more 'random' and 'Tzeentchy' than +1 Wound, which feels more Nurgly.

hazmiter
28-07-2012, 09:28
IMHO, its a good move, maybe (off topic for a sec) they will bring that in for rubrics again, 2 wound terminators w mark of tzeentch were cool.
I'm looking forward to reading the mini dex.
Also in addition, it makes screamers more durable too, remember, if I'm not mistaken, the daemon rule allows eternal warrior.

MagicHat
28-07-2012, 12:25
That being said, the Screamers got some nice love (despite the stupid oversight). But, I always loved the screamers in the Demon codex. Although I am gonna miss the possibility of mass-swarming MCs and melta bombing them to death with the little guys, the fact that they are terminator killers now makes me smile.
~Murphey

Still MC killers.
10 attacks on the charge with meltabombs at I1: 4.15 wounds versus T6.
or... 40 attacks on the charge at S5 AP2 I4: 6.6 wounds.
They are serious badasses now.

Grocklock
28-07-2012, 12:50
as said before I see it more as a change of direction, it is also a way for GW to do some rule testing. They did it with fantasy, they released new banshees, writh, and a new model (terogist). Put the new rules in the white dwarf, and recvied feed back on it and in the next army book they appreared in there slightly changed, This is a good idea by GW release army changes in the WD and then. wait for feedback and apply it to the new book. Fantastic.

NitrosOkay
28-07-2012, 12:52
Tzeentch Daemons are supposed to generally be difficult to destroy due to their absurd physiologies. Whether it's a 4+ invulnerable or 2 wounds hardly matters to me.

All rumours suggest Tzeentch marines are keeping the 4+ invulnerable rather than 2 wounds which makes sense since they don't have eternal warrior.

A.T.
28-07-2012, 14:01
Notable flaw/nerf/oversight in the Demon mini-dexNotably flaw/buff/oversight in the Daemon mini-dex.

Squads gaining an extra wound (with EW) and a big price drop for one less point of invulnerable save? Where do I sign up?

malisteen
28-07-2012, 14:01
All rumours suggest Tzeentch marines are keeping the 4+ invulnerable rather than 2 wounds which makes sense since they don't have eternal warrior.

I'm really disappointed by this rumor, actually, because it almost certainly means that non-Tzeentch HQs will be restricted to no better than 5+ inv. saves, which isn't particularly promising given that supposedly they'll be unable to avoid challenges.

NitrosOkay
28-07-2012, 14:46
I'm really disappointed by this rumor, actually, because it almost certainly means that non-Tzeentch HQs will be restricted to no better than 5+ inv. saves, which isn't particularly promising given that supposedly they'll be unable to avoid challenges.

From the hints about Chaos Lords a tooled up Lord will be more than capable of outright murdering most characters before they can strike.

Murphey
28-07-2012, 15:40
Still MC killers.
10 attacks on the charge with meltabombs at I1: 4.15 wounds versus T6.
or... 40 attacks on the charge at S5 AP2 I4: 6.6 wounds.
They are serious badasses now.

Nice math breakdown :) Yeah, I really should have parsed the numbers there.

You guys are correct, though. For some reason I was forgetting the EW rule in regards to all demons and I was parsing out their survivability change in regards to getting Instant Deathed.

Gotta say, though. I do like the new screamers in a lot of ways.

~Murphey

Lord Inquisitor
28-07-2012, 16:01
Another observation is that flamers and screamers always had a 5+ ward in WFB. Only the horrors had a 4+ and then only with a herald.

lysander190
28-07-2012, 17:43
Acording to the daemon rule, your amour save becomes invunrable. Well in the new mini dex, they are listed with no save? I've chaecked the FAQ and there is nothing in there about having a 5+ save.
So +1w but no save?

Kulgur
28-07-2012, 18:38
Still MC killers.
10 attacks on the charge with meltabombs at I1: 4.15 wounds versus T6.
or... 40 attacks on the charge at S5 AP2 I4: 6.6 wounds.
They are serious badasses now.

Max squad size is 3, so most attacks you can get on the charge with one unit would be 12

GodlessM
28-07-2012, 20:30
Max squad size is 3, so most attacks you can get on the charge with one unit would be 12

Last I looked it was minimum 3, not maximum.

Killgore
28-07-2012, 21:01
Acording to the daemon rule, your amour save becomes invunrable. Well in the new mini dex, they are listed with no save? I've chaecked the FAQ and there is nothing in there about having a 5+ save.
So +1w but no save?

The big 6th ed rulebook listed everything with the 'Daemon' rule has fear and a 5+ invun as standard.

Azazel
28-07-2012, 22:06
I played a lot of games today with these new rules, using three units of nine Screamers and three units of three Flamers.

Man oh man they are overpowered like hell. Didn't matter what wave came down, didn't matter that Fateweaver didn't show up until turn 4. Didn't matter if I rolled bad, they just flattened everything on the board.

Exc20002001
29-07-2012, 14:41
I played a lot of games today with these new rules, using three units of nine Screamers and three units of three Flamers. Man oh man they are overpowered like hell.

---I like---

:cheese:

MagicHat
29-07-2012, 16:18
Max squad size is 3, so most attacks you can get on the charge with one unit would be 12

Max size is 9, so 36 A on the charge.
I said 10 because it is easier to see what I mean/easier to calculate, and not because I thought it was still 12. Obviously :shifty:

Anyway, the average result of 9 screamers charging, because I am kinda curios of the result myself:

MEQ: 11.88

MEQ w/ 3++: 3.92

GEQ: 14.94

T6: 5.94

T7: 2.88

Vehicles (All moving, so hit on 3+)
AV 10: 2.6 glances, 17 pens...

AV 11: 3.2 glances 13.8 pens.

AV 12: 3.9 glances, 9.9 pens.

AV 13: 3.2 glances, 6.5 pens.

AV 14 : 2.6 glances, 3.9 pens.

Slightly lower versus walkers, since they on on 4+ instead.
Might have made some mistake, but it seems reasonable to me. Pretty evil, all things considered.

Huoshini
29-07-2012, 16:45
Does GW have this change to the rules for demons on the website or anything? or is it that I am unable to buy a WD that I am screwed now?

Lord Inquisitor
29-07-2012, 17:53
From past experience GW may:
- provide the rules on their website after a few weeks. (e.g. White Dwarf Blood Angels)
- provide the rules as a digital download for a price. (e.g. Ork bomma)
- provide a digital download of the whole daemon book with the new units included. (e.g. Codex Space Marines)
- leave it white dwarf only until a new army book comes around (e.g. Terrorgheist)

I think the third possibility is the most likely but it may not be straight away and there's really no way of knowing.

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-07-2012, 05:47
or is it that I am unable to buy a WD that I am screwed now? For now your probably screwed. :( With luck GW will provide a pdf of the updates on their website, but they might just restrict it to their new digital(iPad) products.