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Xerkics
29-07-2012, 15:58
Im curious why are none of the tyranid guns ap3? I dont count zoanthropes cause these are psychic powers. Even the best str 10 260 points tyrranofex can only achieve is ap4. Is that a concsious design decision gw made so that needs cant shoot marines dead?

Col. von Dryden
29-07-2012, 20:21
Originally a design decision. They wanted nids to have multiple shots, not good at AP design. Still ask why there's no "acid" weapon with an AP of 3 or 2.... Then I remember we didn't need it in previous editions, then Cruddace made our current dex.

Gig
29-07-2012, 20:37
Bio-Plasma is an AP2 shooting attack or do you literally mean no ap3 as in nothing between 2 and 4 ?

Gingerwerewolf
29-07-2012, 21:10
Its the design Ethos of Tyranids - Why have one thing that is very good at doing its job when you can have 100 times as many that are 25% as good.

Overwhelm by numbers and this accounts for shooting too.

Nids were designed with a flawed ethos though. They are the only army designed to be the bad guys. There is nothing that makes them good, no angle that can be taken to see their point of view.

This makes them very hard to get an design on where you, as the designer, dont want them to fail.

Cruddace suffers from that all through the book, the whole thing is written from the Imperial point of view and how the Tyranids are being fought off - but at what cost.

Its a similar thing as to why there is nothing in there that has a higher T than 6.

AV 10 = not damageable by Str 3
T 6 is wounded on a 6

Its why we've struggled

Xerkics
29-07-2012, 22:23
Bio-Plasma is an AP2 shooting attack or do you literally mean no ap3 as in nothing between 2 and 4 ?


I guess Crudface felt its safe enough to put on a Carnifex which he made so bad.

Vepr
30-07-2012, 00:56
I don't have a problem with Tyranids having short range weapons with little to no AP, in some ways it makes sense for a more assaulted oriented strictly bio-engineered army . Unfortunately if you couple it with the poorly designed rush job that is the current Tyranid codex it becomes an issue. I do not know if it is true or not but it has been mentioned that Cruddace said he does not even like Tyranids. It is easy enough to believe looking at their codex.

Archon Deloth Vyrr
30-07-2012, 01:24
Because Nids can put out an insane amount of shots. They can put out shots that don't need LOS and ignore cover and intervening terrain. I don't care what the AP is on Twin Linked Devourers, I'm wounding so many times your unit is gonna die anyways, armorsave or no.

Xerkics
30-07-2012, 02:01
Because Nids can put out an insane amount of shots. They can put out shots that don't need LOS and ignore cover and intervening terrain. I don't care what the AP is on Twin Linked Devourers, I'm wounding so many times your unit is gonna die anyways, armorsave or no.

Point is shouldnt at least tyrranofex gun or heavy venom cannon be ap3? Considering how expensive the platsform is and its not like you get lots of shots.

Murphey
30-07-2012, 03:33
Honestly, the Tyranid codex is just terribly balanced and written. The CC units don't have access to frag grenades, the MC's explode if anyone with ID weapons show up, and the Carnifexs lost 90+% of their options. On top of it, they lost the ability to field elite MCs, their shooting actually got worse (didn't think that was possible), and for some insane reason they decided to come up with the stupid idea that Tyranids now eat souls.

I think Cruddace's thought behind the lack of ap3 weaponry had more to do with the thought that Tyranids would be able to kill MEQ units effectively in CC. Now, the fact is they don't exactly pull that off as advertised. But hey, maybe there'll be a new codex in about 4 years.

Draconis
30-07-2012, 07:29
Honestly, the Tyranid codex is just terribly balanced and written. The CC units don't have access to frag grenades, the MC's explode if anyone with ID weapons show up, and the Carnifexs lost 90+% of their options. On top of it, they lost the ability to field elite MCs, their shooting actually got worse (didn't think that was possible), and for some insane reason they decided to come up with the stupid idea that Tyranids now eat souls.

I think Cruddace's thought behind the lack of ap3 weaponry had more to do with the thought that Tyranids would be able to kill MEQ units effectively in CC. Now, the fact is they don't exactly pull that off as advertised. But hey, maybe there'll be a new codex in about 4 years.

Actually, they'll be destroying MEQs in combat. Bone Swords are AP 2, rending is AP2, MC's are AP2, etc etc etc. Uberguants are now really, really good as well.

Corvus Corone
30-07-2012, 07:37
Actually, they'll be destroying MEQs in combat. Bone Swords are AP 2, rending is AP2, MC's are AP2, etc etc etc. Uberguants are now really, really good as well.

You mean hormagaunts with AG/TS?

Do you play tyranids? 10pts/ model, t3, 6+ save; you're usually striking last if there's any terrain on the board, and they're not as fast as they were in 5th, plus now overwatch and rapid fire changes mean you're lucky if half of a brood of 30 (a 300pts investment) make it into combat, where against all but guard/ tau too many will die before striking to make it worthwhile.

Yes, you can use them well here and there, if you really try, but saying they're good is a bit of a stretch. Genstealers are better and they're pretty badly mauled by 6th too.

OT: I find my shooting is fine for vehicles now. HUll points have made a big difference to TL/ Brainleech devs + impalers. However, shooting is as poor against marines as it ever was; you just have to hope for a couple of kills here and there, like bonus kills to make the CC achievable.

Murphey
30-07-2012, 08:12
I'm gonna agree with Corvus here. Don't get me wrong, the Tyranid codex does have some decent stuff, but the army doesn't flow for crap. Other armies can out shoot the hell out of Nids due to their weaker guns/BS and terrible armor saves. Which means to really have an edge, you have to get into CC. Oops, but the army doesn't get any frag grenade equivalent. Looks like those super expensive warriors that somehow made it across the board all are going at the same init as powerfists. Which means those 3 wounds mean nothing, and it's instant death time.

Now, all potential hyperbole aside, I'm sure there is some effective army build out there for the 'Nids, especially if you avoid a lot of their weakpoints. But seriously, can anyone say that a fairly new codex pulling off maybe one potential build so long as you avoid half of the elements in the game is anywhere near reasonable or effective? I sure as hell can't.

P.S. AP3 weapons are actually a fairly recent push for the game. For a long time during 4th, the only ap3 weapons I knew about were the battle cannons or Tau Rail Riffles. There seems to have been a far heavier push towards more mid-good ap weapons over the last edition or so. But the 'Nids being a (hah) 'close combat army' means they kind of missed out on it.

Threeshades
30-07-2012, 13:43
I'm gonna agree with Corvus here. Don't get me wrong, the Tyranid codex does have some decent stuff, but the army doesn't flow for crap. Other armies can out shoot the hell out of Nids due to their weaker guns/BS and terrible armor saves. Which means to really have an edge, you have to get into CC. Oops, but the army doesn't get any frag grenade equivalent. Looks like those super expensive warriors that somehow made it across the board all are going at the same init as powerfists. Which means those 3 wounds mean nothing, and it's instant death time.

Now, all potential hyperbole aside, I'm sure there is some effective army build out there for the 'Nids, especially if you avoid a lot of their weakpoints. But seriously, can anyone say that a fairly new codex pulling off maybe one potential build so long as you avoid half of the elements in the game is anywhere near reasonable or effective? I sure as hell can't.

P.S. AP3 weapons are actually a fairly recent push for the game. For a long time during 4th, the only ap3 weapons I knew about were the battle cannons or Tau Rail Riffles. There seems to have been a far heavier push towards more mid-good ap weapons over the last edition or so. But the 'Nids being a (hah) 'close combat army' means they kind of missed out on it.

I agree on all accounts except: Missile Launchers. Those have been AP3 all along.

Elios Harg
30-07-2012, 13:54
Tyranids have some really impressive builds now for 6th, the only bad thing about the book in 6th edition is that it has poor internal balance.

DEADMARSH
30-07-2012, 14:30
I agree on all accounts except: Missile Launchers. Those have been AP3 all along.

Yup, 8/3. It is kind of odd there's always been more stuff that's AP2 than AP3 though. Or at least it seems that way with the armies I've played and played against.

Back in the day (4th ed, when 'Nids were king, at least around my parts), they didn't need any low AP shooting to be effective. Mechanized meta didn't exist and rending worked differently than it does now. I admit I am not a 'Nid player, but if you ask me, those two changes are integral as to why 'Nids are much less effective than their past incarnations; it has little to do with shooting or low AP shots really. I played against a lot of 'Nid lists that didn't rely on shooting at all in the previous editions that were still quite effective.

Corvus Corone
30-07-2012, 14:42
Yup, 8/3. It is kind of odd there's always been more stuff that's AP2 than AP3 though. Or at least it seems that way with the armies I've played and played against.

Back in the day (4th ed, when 'Nids were king, at least around my parts), they didn't need any low AP shooting to be effective. Mechanized meta didn't exist and rending worked differently than it does now. I admit I am not a 'Nid player, but if you ask me, those two changes are integral as to why 'Nids are much less effective than their past incarnations; it has little to do with shooting or low AP shots really. I played against a lot of 'Nid lists that didn't rely on shooting at all in the previous editions that were still quite effective.

I seem to remember we used to get re-rolls to wound on most shooting with living ammo back then.

Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.

DEADMARSH
30-07-2012, 15:11
I seem to remember we used to get re-rolls to wound on most shooting with living ammo back then.

Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.

Even the IG codex has it's useless and goofy units though. Imagine for a second if the IG codex was released under 6th with hull points in play. How good is it then?

That's all I'm saying- I think the IG codex is more a result of 5th ed being easy on vehicles and units in vehicles- both of which IG excel at more than Cruddace doing a great job with one and a crappy job with the other. I think he's definitely still developing as a rules-writer and has a ways to go yet before he can knock out a solid codex.

DEADMARSH
30-07-2012, 15:13
I seem to remember we used to get re-rolls to wound on most shooting with living ammo back then.

Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.

Even the IG codex has it's useless and goofy units though. Imagine for a second if the IG codex was released under 6th with hull points in play. How good is it then?

That's all I'm saying- I think the IG codex is more a result of 5th ed being easy on vehicles and units in vehicles- both of which IG excel at more than Cruddace doing a great job with one and a crappy job with the other. I think he's definitely still developing as a rules-writer and has a ways to go yet before he can knock out a solid codex.

Transgressor
30-07-2012, 18:00
I did always find it odd that the impaler cannons on the hive guard are described as going through concrete or other hardened structures to hit targets and then have AP4... :confused:

I miss the old options for the biovore shots, the acid ones were nice. I feel like we should have more options for stuff like that. An acid themed nid list would be cool I think.

Maybe we'll get lucky and see a WD fix/update like daemons. Expect everything bad to be made good. Pyrovores will be made T6 with a S6 AP3 flamer or some such nonsense. Can't let those models sit on the shelves forever...

Harwammer
30-07-2012, 18:47
I guess this means a 3+ save is meant to represent armour made from a super-material?

Megad00mer
30-07-2012, 19:22
I'd be completely happy with our current shooting options if we had, at the very least, assault grenades where it counts.

Xerkics
30-07-2012, 19:58
Well i dont mind alll the smaller bugs having no or bad ap on their weapons but something so hideously expensive as tyrranofex and hive tyrant/fex not being able to get at least 1 ap 3 gun kinda makes no sense for me. Also heavy venom cannon -1 is horrendous in this edition. At least in last i could wreck tanks on a roll of 6.

Murphey
30-07-2012, 22:06
I agree on all accounts except: Missile Launchers. Those have been AP3 all along.
Oops, quite right! Yeah, in my gaming sphere, no one ever took missile launchers, since for like 5 points more people could take lascannons, so I kind of forgot about them.



Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.

Hear-*********-hear! From everything I've heard, GW took a pretty huge loss on the 5th ed Tyranid models, since no one was buying all the new MCs they made. (Most Tyranid players simply stopped playing them from what I've observed) Now, one would assume that any company that made that much of a screwup would release a new 'dex pronto, especially since that would be the only way to really recover their investment, but GW has never really made a lot of understandable business decisions in the past...



I'd be completely happy with our current shooting options if we had, at the very least, assault grenades where it counts.

Can't argue with this much, honestly. Although I really miss living ammo something fierce. The lack of freaking assault grenades on things like Genestealers is just beyond ludicrous.

Threeshades
30-07-2012, 22:14
Personally i dont care about tyranid shooting being subpar, even in a metagame where almost everyone is good at both shooting and close combat. That's how i envision tyranids. Not having the benefits of highly advanced technology, their artificially controlled evolution can only take them so far until they literally reach the limits of the flesh. But Nids do need to be good at something.

As for Gingerwerewolf's antagonist theory: I honestly don't think that should be a problem. There sure are plenty of people who wouldnt have that mindset about tyranids if they were to write the codex. The best proof of that would probably be the actual previous iterations of codex tyranids. And even if you can't help but go at it with such an additude, you could still lower the points costs of a lot of units afterwards to put them back into balance.
And at last it still does nothing to explain the poor internal balance.


I did always find it odd that the impaler cannons on the hive guard are described as going through concrete or other hardened structures to hit targets and then have AP4... :confused:

Impaler cannons are an affront to any sort of intelligence anyway. They're supposed to be anti-armour weapons but fire vectored shots without any self propellation or explosive head. So the only force their little harpoons have is what they got from being expelled from the gun and then they sacrifice alot of that by maneuvering in the air and they still manage to pierce medium vehicle armour. Suure. I know 40k is not about realism, but this just bugs me. No pun intended.

Mikial
30-07-2012, 23:57
Actually, they'll be destroying MEQs in combat. Bone Swords are AP 2, rending is AP2, MC's are AP2, etc etc etc. Uberguants are now really, really good as well.

Exactly. My wife regularly kicks IG and SM butt with her Nids. I've run them myself a few times and found them great fun and pretty competitive to run.

Besides, I think the poor AP is actually a factor of so many of the weapons shooting various insect and slug-like projectiles that simply don't have the penetration of lasers, plasma, and HE/AP missiles and shells. True, it's fluff, but it does make a degree of sense. Even an acidic round would not have as good penetration as a high energy or AP round.

Having said that, I completely agree Nids need some kind of assault grenades to make their charges into cover better.

Baaltor
31-07-2012, 00:16
Why do Tyranids need grenades? If every army that assaults get grenades, the assaulting through cover rules only apply to armies that don't want to assault in the first place. Why can't appropriate costing and tactics get around this?

Xerkics
31-07-2012, 00:20
I dunno i find that my tyranids always get to go last with some exception as they will always be assaulting into cover. So high init is kinda pointless. In general tyranid shooting is the thing i enjoy a lot . Biovores, barbed stranglers brainleech devourers etc. CC i dont actually like i hate going last all the time even though i supposedly have this super high init.

Murphey
31-07-2012, 01:18
Why do Tyranids need grenades? If every army that assaults get grenades, the assaulting through cover rules only apply to armies that don't want to assault in the first place. Why can't appropriate costing and tactics get around this?

1: Grenades should be an option, but cost points. A perfect example is the emp grenades for the fire warriors. (Granted, over costed as hell, but irrelevant for this point) They have the OPTION to take them, but it increases the cost of the unit. The player has to judge the effectiveness of the upgrade vs. the increased cost. Which is kind of the whole point of army building.

2: There's really no solid or consistent way around the charging through cover issue, and the Tyranids are, in no way shape or form, appropriately costed for not having grenades. They would probably have to be 30% cheaper across the board to justify the lack.

If it helps visualize the problem, think of it this way. You have a group of Assault cannon/missile launcher equipped terminators in a set of ruins. You have a unit of Bonesword warriors near by to go deal with them. There's no way the warriors are going to outshoot the Terminators (ap 4 vs 4+ save on warriors, and instant deathing krak missiles, so the only option to take them out is to assault). So the warriors rush in and attempt to charge the termies. If they had assault grenades, they would handily destroy the termies, as should any comparably costed CC dedicated unit charging a more range specialized unit. As it stands, the absolute best the Warriors can hope to achieve is a mutual destruction, but given the terminators' invlun save, that's not even a guarantee.

So you have a CC specialized unit that has to footslog for at least a couple of turns to reach the opponent, (getting shot the whole time), a CC unit with pretty terrible saves mind you, and should they reach their opponents, they're still going to lose. That's a, frankly, terrible unit dynamic by any metric.

Xerkics
31-07-2012, 01:58
I have a feeling the reason why Tau have those grenades as an option is so they never buy them hehe.

Col. von Dryden
31-07-2012, 02:12
Hmm...just a thought but what if Stranglewebs worked as our "assault" grenades? Hit the unit and they are Initiative 1 due to the "goo".... Of course this goes along with warriors being T5 and a few other things that would really help but will not see the light of day...

Murphey
31-07-2012, 02:53
Hmm...just a thought but what if Stranglewebs worked as our "assault" grenades? Hit the unit and they are Initiative 1 due to the "goo".... Of course this goes along with warriors being T5 and a few other things that would really help but will not see the light of day...

Yeah, and let's be honest, there's ton of fixes that could happen that would fix the myriad of Tyranid issues, but they're not really going to happen in all likelyhood. Also, simply reducing the enemy's initiative to 1 doesn't really help the Nid's CC at all. They're just too fragile to exchange blows at best. (Except with units like the Tau, but a toddler could.)

itcamefromthedeep
31-07-2012, 03:52
Oh dear...

Point is shouldnt at least tyrranofex gun or heavy venom cannon be ap3? Considering how expensive the platsform is and its not like you get lots of shots.Maybe. The connection between Strength and AP should not be absolute, in my humble opinion.


Honestly, the Tyranid codex is just terribly balanced and written. The CC units don't have access to frag grenades, the MC's explode if anyone with ID weapons show up, and the Carnifexs lost 90+% of their options. On top of it, they lost the ability to field elite MCs, their shooting actually got worse (didn't think that was possible), and for some insane reason they decided to come up with the stupid idea that Tyranids now eat souls.There are a lot of writing problems in the Tyranid codex, but after years of pushing an opinion much like yours I've come to consider the proportion of terrible units in the Tyranid codex to roughly match those of most codexes.

Let's take a look at the good/okay/awful units in the Tyranid army, judged by how often (anecdotally) they get purchased for an army list:

GOOD: Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard, Tyranid Prime, Termagants, Zoanthropes (as of 6e), Hive Guard, Tervigons, Genestealers, Broodlords, Ymgarl Genestealers
OKAY: Tyranid Warriors, Tyranid Shrike, Raveners, Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Harpies, Venomthropes, Biovores, Trygons, Mycetic Spores, Swarmlord, Doom of Malan'tai, Deathleaper, Parasite of Mortrex (as of 6e)
AWFUL: Lictors, Carnifexes, Spore Mines, Pyrovores, Mawlocs, Tyrannofex (as of 6e), Rippers, Sky-Slashers, Old One-Eye

Compare that to a codex lauded for its internal balance, Dark Eldar:

GOOD: Trueborn, Razorwings, Archons, Haemonculi, Wracks, Raiders, Venoms, Ravagers, Wyches, Incubi
OKAY: Kabalite Warriors, Hellions, Reavers, Beastmasters, Khymarae, Scourges (good?), Razorwings, Voidravens, Baron Sathonyx, Lelith Hesperax, Haemonculus Ancients, Harlequins
AWFUL: Hecatryx Bloodbrides (never seen or heard of them used), Clawed Fiends, Mandrakes, Court of the Archon, Succubi, Kheradruakh, Duke Sliscus, Drazhar, Lady Malys, Urien Rakarth, Asdrubael Vect, Grotesques, Talos Pain Engine, Chronos Parasite Engine

Note that a lot of the models in that "awful" section really are very bad for their price. Within the context of the army (internal balance) a Talos could be half that base price and rarely taken. You can see that by comparison, the breakdown of units in both the DE and Tyranid book is roughly comparable.


You mean hormagaunts with AG/TS?

Do you play tyranids? 10pts/ model, t3, 6+ save; you're usually striking last if there's any terrain on the board, and they're not as fast as they were in 5th, plus now overwatch and rapid fire changes mean you're lucky if half of a brood of 30 (a 300pts investment) make it into combat, where against all but guard/ tau too many will die before striking to make it worthwhile.I prefer to keep mine cheap but those Hormagaunts work just fine. Hyperbole doesn't serve you here.


Now, all potential hyperbole aside, I'm sure there is some effective army build out there for the 'Nids, especially if you avoid a lot of their weakpoints. But seriously, can anyone say that a fairly new codex pulling off maybe one potential build so long as you avoid half of the elements in the game is anywhere near reasonable or effective? I sure as hell can't.Most players don't play in the kind of environment where Tyranid weaknesses are critical. Anything below NOVA-calibre players and Tyranids are middling.


Back in the day (4th ed, when 'Nids were king, at least around my parts), they didn't need any low AP shooting to be effective.They still don't, and Nids were never king in 4e. Eldar and Tau in a not-close second, due to the awesomeness of fast skimmers and specifically holofield shenanigans.


Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.There's a line in civil discourse and you're flirting with it. I would be neither surprised nor disappointed if that post of your were moderated out of the thread.

The IG codex is of similar quality. The difference occurred in the FAQ when they changed rules to make the Doom of Malan'tai not wreck infantry in vehicles like a horrendous murder machine. The Doom as written was at least as mean as a Manticore and usually meaner. Before the Leafblower list came out people tended to think Guard were just fine, if even a little weak.


I did always find it odd that the impaler cannons on the hive guard are described as going through concrete or other hardened structures to hit targets and then have AP4... :confused:Autocannons are anti-tank rifles and krak grenades are the kind of thing we'd slap on a rocket and call a tank-busting RPG.


I guess this means a 3+ save is meant to represent armour made from a super-material?Yes. It's also armor as thick as the armor on a main battle tank (if not thicker). Comparing that to the fornt armor on a modern tank would tell you that space marine power armor could be expected to survive a hit from modern field artillery.


Impaler cannons are an affront to any sort of intelligence anyway.We'll add it to the list. Hormagaunts skitter and leap at the same time. Venomthrope gas is both lighter and heavier than air. Tyranid spaceships move long distances nearly instantaneously unless it's intergalactic travel. Gargoyles are both claustrophobic and agoraphobic. Mawlocs are supposed to look like worms. Tyranids can't seem to figure out how their Ymgarl Genestealers work, and won't eat them for fear of their genetic instability infecting the Hive Fleet... as if that even began to make sense. The Hive Mind can't make a Zoanthrope without ADD.

If Tyranids were to eat all the biomass on Earth you'd have enough material to make almost 6 million Nimitz-class aircraft carriers, which in the form of vessels 100x that size would be roughly 60,000 Imperial capital ships from a single planet (Behemoth started with "several thousand").

GW seems to have a poor grasp of how things work. It's best to ignore every number they give you as well as all of their explanations for things.


Why do Tyranids need grenades? If every army that assaults get grenades, the assaulting through cover rules only apply to armies that don't want to assault in the first place. Why can't appropriate costing and tactics get around this?They can, and should.


I dunno i find that my tyranids always get to go last with some exception as they will always be assaulting into cover. So high init is kinda pointless. In general tyranid shooting is the thing i enjoy a lot . Biovores, barbed stranglers brainleech devourers etc. CC i dont actually like i hate going last all the time even though i supposedly have this super high init.


2: There's really no solid or consistent way around the charging through cover issue, and the Tyranids are, in no way shape or form, appropriately costed for not having grenades. They would probably have to be 30% cheaper across the board to justify the lack.

If it helps visualize the problem, think of it this way. [Warriors vs Terminators]Charge with your Gaunts first, and let them take the Overwatch fire. Then use the remaining Gaunts to tie up most of the fists. Once your Warriors make it in you'll be able to strike with all of them and kill enough models that next turn the terminators are boned. Using Gaunts to engage things like hidden power fists and mean ICs is a great way for Tyranids to wreck otherwise superior close combat troops by having them waste many or most of their Attacks on low-value models while all of your Attacks hit high-value models. This is a strategy for defeating superior and/or emplaced troops that Marines don't usually have access to (few armies do).

Assault Grenades aren't nearly as important as you've claimed.

---

Tyranids are a firefight army. They kill targets and prepare the way with shooting, and then defeat stragglers in close combat or use their Gaunt models to arrange favorable mismatches. A lot of the work gets done with guns, as it has been for a long while now.

Corvus Corone
31-07-2012, 07:37
Itcamefromthedeep:

Wow; that's a somewhat confrontational post. I salute your momentum, sir.

My instinct says there's not much point responding; you seem very self-assured and in any case you're entitled to your opinion. I merely (and humbly) ask that you respect rather than belittle my own, and I offer my angle on the points you raised below.

My comment about Cruddace being like the bad guy in a film was quite light hearted (indicated from the off by 'oh Cruddace'). I meant he's often portrayed like a comicbook villain, the stereotype like that guy in the mummy who gets eaten by scarabs at the end. It may have pushed the boundary for you, but there we go. I didn't actually go into gory detail and implied nothing more than you might see in 12A films like the Dark Knight or Jurassic Park. I'd mirror your 'hyperbole doesn't serve you here' but I don't think you're exaggerating; I think we just to have accept I'm somewhat more liberated in what I consider fair game for comedy, analogy and forum content. If, however, I have genuinely misjudged this, then I am completely happy for a mod to edit my post as they see fit; I don't know any mods on this forum but you or anyone else may of course report my post.

As for the hormagants, I'm glad you can use them. I said they can be used and used well. Alls I'm saying is that I don't think they represent a good investment very often, and that's based on my years of chilling over at the Tyranid Hive forums, talking to a lot of people who's tactical and strategic acumen I highly respect. For clarity, there was no hyperbole intended in the post you quoted. Sorry if you disagree, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

I think that's it for me in this thread. I've contributed, stated my position and I stand by it. I wish you well, sir.

Threeshades
31-07-2012, 09:14
I find that using gaunts as replacement grenades more often than not doesn't work out. The gaunts block the assault of your stronger unit or at the very least slow them down because you have to wait an entire turn (of which there usually arent more than 6 or 7 in a game, and this is already talking about a long game). That's my experience. Now that No retreat! is gone they at least have a more decent chance of actually staying in that combat long enough to tie up a unit until your next assault phase, but they still have to take two phases of attacks from the enemy.

itcamefromthedeep
31-07-2012, 12:23
My comment about Cruddace being like the bad guy in a film was quite light hearted (indicated from the off by 'oh Cruddace'). I meant he's often portrayed like a comicbook villain, the stereotype like that guy in the mummy who gets eaten by scarabs at the end. It may have pushed the boundary for you, but there we go.
The problem was that you made a joke about wishing someone dead (a real person). I don't think it's too much to ask to avoid that. If I really thought it was a big problem I'd go straight to the mods.


I find that using gaunts as replacement grenades more often than not doesn't work out.Agreed. Among other things it tends to take too much time.

You go in at the same time. When your combat unit is what you care about, having a couple enemies striking you first is often better than the whole unit striking after you.

nedius
31-07-2012, 13:40
On the original topic of nid shooting, I don't think it should be AP3, at least outside of APOC games. Nid shooting should be poor against armour, but horrifying when it does wound.

Think about most tyranid shooting weapons - they fire acid (which could be mitagated by non-reactive metals or at least dense/thick enough plating so it couldn't burn right through), creatures (which would splat against hard surfaces, or simply blunt their teeth on them), shards/spikes of bone (which are likely less hard than adamantium plating, thus more likely to shatter than penetrate) or other biological goop. None of those things should easily defeat power armour.

Nid shooting should win through by volume, not quality.

In fact, this should be true of most of the army. In all the fluff, a handful of opponents always holds back tides of nid creatures. A gaunt shouldn't be the equal of a guardsman, but of a gretchin - perhaps worse. A guant should, by fluff, be all but the weakest basic troop in the game, no matter what type it may be. A unit of gaunts, hormagaunt or termagant, should break agaisnt cover/defended terrain like a wave - a small number of troops should be able to hold them back. But, through weight of numbers, they are eventually pushed back. Which is very 'movie' - seemily a theme for 6th ed.

However, should we wish to leave fluff in the novels, and concentrate on game, then nids need more focus. They are currently 'nothing'. They can't out CC other CC armies, nor outshoot shooty armies, nor can they 'jack-of-all-trades' as well as other 'j-o-a-t' armies. Tyranids began as THE CC army. Shooting was rubbish to non-existant in 2nd ed, but when the nids hit you in CC you died. For me, that was the 'golden age' of the tyranids, when they most represented on the table what they did in the fluff. This seems to have created a hang up - Their shooting has always been reduced in effectiveness to compensate for their CC abilities. However, these have been eroded over time.

Take genestealers. In 2nd, they really were the CC troops to end them all. Very high I and WS, with power-weapon equivalent claws. Then, they went to rending (automatically wounds on a roll of 6 to hit), then rending was reduced (roll of 6 to wound). Yet genestealers (and as an extension, the whole nid army) are still costed and otherwise 'balanced' as if they are THE CC specialists of the game (poor armour, can't assault on outlfanking/deepstriking, need to footslog).

What does this have to do with shooting? Well, nid shooting is still limited to 'balance' a CC specialism which they no longer have. A few fun things have been added to try and counter that (hive guard), but ultimately that is not sufficient to overturn a fundemental flaw in their design philosophy.

So, no, nids should not have AP3 shooting. Nor should they have assault grenades. What they should have are an abundance of near-useless gaunts to be THE tarpit of the game and the deadliest, most delicate glass hammers going. In my opinion. :D

Xerkics
31-07-2012, 15:27
We normaly play team games with 1000-1250 points per player and i really struggle to get gaunts alive to the cover where guard is sitting with their tanks. I had a game where 1 tank shell instand death a unit of wars in cover and 2nd one killed the biovores.
Which is why id rather have shooty nids who at least cause some wounds than cc nids who ll never see combat.

the_picto
31-07-2012, 15:59
I think it would have helped and possibly been interesting if Nids had gotten a butt load of pinning weapons. Force so many checks on the enemy that they fail one, then send in the grenade-less stealers without worrying about the cover.

Also the drop to I1 is way to harsh on nids, who rely on high initiative to kill stuff before they get squished. Couldn't we just lose the +1 attack for charging if we go through cover?

Xerkics
31-07-2012, 16:41
Init 1 is especially crippling on genestealers who are pretty squishy and its pretty much guaranteed that if i run any then enemy will be sitting in cover.

Vepr
31-07-2012, 18:33
It sounds like the designers finally realize that tyranids are not in a great place right now especially for a codex that is fairly recent. They are not bad but they are not good either and a lot of it has to do with being way too expensive. Unfortunately for tyranid players there are a lot of other armies that are older and in need of an update also. This does not mean that nids will not get attention but I am guessing it will not come anytime soon. Tyranids are not in dire shape right now so I am guessing GW will be fine with making them wait a few more years. I would love to be wrong on this and maybe nids will be thrown a bone with a WD update like daemons but what nids really need is a new codex and we are not going to see that for another 2 or 3 years.

Megad00mer
31-07-2012, 19:03
The rumor mill is currently buzzing that we'll see updated FAQ's for all armies along with the starter box in September. These are rumored to be pretty extensive FAQ's, changing point costs and adding special rules. Supposedly GW is planning to regularly update FAQs now in an effort to maintain a better overall balance in 40k.

It could be complete B.S., but there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Vepr
31-07-2012, 19:23
The rumor mill is currently buzzing that we'll see updated FAQ's for all armies along with the starter box in September. These are rumored to be pretty extensive FAQ's, changing point costs and adding special rules. Supposedly GW is planning to regularly update FAQs now in an effort to maintain a better overall balance in 40k.

It could be complete B.S., but there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.

That would be great. Hopefully we get one that is a bit more friendly than past FAQs. I still get a bit miffed thinking back on that first one we got after the BA release. "Here is a serving of nerf to go with your lackluster codex!"

Murphey
31-07-2012, 21:12
Okay, guys. As we've deviated from the initial thread pretty heavily, I think I will make a new thread about Tyranid viability once I get home, (On the mobile, currently) and we can all jump on there and debate. I esspecially want to respond to deep's post, but I dont want my hijacking of this thread to get worse.

Threeshades
31-07-2012, 21:38
The rumor mill is currently buzzing that we'll see updated FAQ's for all armies along with the starter box in September. These are rumored to be pretty extensive FAQ's, changing point costs and adding special rules. Supposedly GW is planning to regularly update FAQs now in an effort to maintain a better overall balance in 40k.

It could be complete B.S., but there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.
I would love to see the source on that one.

Xerkics
31-07-2012, 23:39
SO Back on Topic what are peoples thoughts Venom Cannons in 6th? are they completely pointless now since something like Brain leech worms seems way more effective for killing vehicles since -1 means you can no longer wreck a tank on 1 shot even on a roll of 6.

Vepr
31-07-2012, 23:50
SO Back on Topic what are peoples thoughts Venom Cannons in 6th? are they completely pointless now since something like Brain leech worms seems way more effective for killing vehicles since -1 means you can no longer wreck a tank on 1 shot even on a roll of 6.

It does seem like a pointless choice now with the inability to wreck a vehicle especially when you look at that cost. Devourers are the best choice again which means they are likely to get the ever loving snot nerfed out of them in the next nid codex. :p

Murphey
31-07-2012, 23:59
SO Back on Topic what are peoples thoughts Venom Cannons in 6th? are they completely pointless now since something like Brain leech worms seems way more effective for killing vehicles since -1 means you can no longer wreck a tank on 1 shot even on a roll of 6.

Venom cannons have always been crappy on killing tanks. While they're great when dealing with ork vehicles, and they have a niche with DE vehicles, a flyrant with brainworms is better against the majority of vehicles.

It should be noted that tyranids did take a hefty hit to their anti tank, since the new mc vs vehicle rules hit, but it's also easier for them to get cover, so I call that a tradeoff I'll take any day.

itcamefromthedeep
01-08-2012, 00:35
SO Back on Topic what are peoples thoughts Venom Cannons in 6th? are they completely pointless now since something like Brain leech worms seems way more effective for killing vehicles since -1 means you can no longer wreck a tank on 1 shot even on a roll of 6.They can't suppress any more, but they can strip hull points. The biggest use I see for them is to take the last hull point off of a vehicle that you don't want to spend a Hive Guard's shooting phase on.

The best vehicle for the weapon is a Harpy, in my humble opinion.

The lesser venom cannons on Warriors are really an anti-infantry option in groucho glasses, often outpacing barbed stranglers and making good use of Old Adversary. Their ability to hurt vehicles is poor, but you can throw it that way in the hopes of removing a hull point.


It should be noted that tyranids did take a hefty hit to their anti tank, since the new mc vs vehicle rules hit, but it's also easier for them to get cover, so I call that a tradeoff I'll take any day.I think that most vehicles becoming much easier to hit in close combat is adequate compensation for the loss of the armorbane effect.

Murphey
01-08-2012, 03:47
I think that most vehicles becoming much easier to hit in close combat is adequate compensation for the loss of the armorbane effect.

I would agree 100%. Man, trying to melee Eldar skimmers was a an exercise in frustration.

Lord_Byron
01-08-2012, 03:50
SO Back on Topic what are peoples thoughts Venom Cannons in 6th? are they completely pointless now since something like Brain leech worms seems way more effective for killing vehicles since -1 means you can no longer wreck a tank on 1 shot even on a roll of 6.

The only point in venom cannons I can see now is trying to pop quantum shielding on necron vehicles at range.

Threeshades
01-08-2012, 09:50
I actually think (Heavy) VCs are better at Vehicle hunting now than they were before. Sure they have no chance of wrecking a vehicle in one shot, but they still do all the other nasty stuff to it the damage table has to offer, which is mostly what they have been used for in the past too (and really that one in six chance of exploding a vehicle is nothing you should be counting on anymore anyway). Most of which will be mor hurtful towards weapon-carrying vehicles than transporters.
What actually makes them better is the fac that they have a much better chance to hit now. Since they deal a S9 hit with the entire Blast marker, not just the center, meaning they have about 1,3 inches more in every direction to scatter while still being able to hit at full strength. On top of that, if opponents try close deployment with vehicles, you get the chance to hit several of them at once.
Put that on a harpy and you have a re-rollable shot that isl ikely going to get shots off at side armors.

I would say Heavy VCs are about where Carnifex VCs were with the last codex.


But generally I agree that melee against vehicles is a lot more viable now. Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands could entirely replace Hive Guard there when it comes to popping Transports (10 of them alone should statistically take out one Rear 10 vehicle in a signle charge), and I would say they are better when talking about Front 13/14 Rear 10, like most IG, Tau and Marine battle tanks.

FireDragonExarch
16-10-2012, 08:47
Don't forge the strength 6 ap3 hellstorm template the hieroduel can bring out ;)

Shards of Basalt
16-10-2012, 09:58
My understanding is that a lot of the issues with Tyranid shooting are 3rd edition design relics from where they were crazily flexible and had bio-weapons that derived most of their stats from the creatures firing them.

They didn't want Gaunts loading up on masses of low Ap shooting for obvious reasons.

Threeshades
16-10-2012, 10:07
They didn't want Gaunts loading up on masses of low Ap shooting for obvious reasons.

Then why did they let them? Devourer gaunts are better now than ever before.

Shards of Basalt
16-10-2012, 13:42
To clarify, I mean low Ap in the sense of Ap 2 and 3 weapons not weapons without an Armour Piercing value.

Threeshades
17-10-2012, 08:00
Ah, yeah i got it the wrong way round.

Makes you wonder though, why they could make BSa value from 1 (worst) to 10 (best) with a fixed dice roll to it but needed to make saves and AP 6 (worst) to 2 (best). Just makes it more confusing. I guess it's just an artifact from 2nd when saves weren't in the profile and AP was still save modifiers.