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Lord Dan
31-07-2012, 21:10
I've seen a few of these polls for the strongest lore, but never for the weakest. Please take a moment to answer the poll, above.

Veshnakar
31-07-2012, 21:13
I'm going to have to say it kind of depends upon the army. Lore of Shadows is awesome with a high leadership army and lore of metal has great synergy with Chaos Dwarfs. On a face value though I would have to say lore of fire for it's lack of diversity. On the other hand it has an incredible signature spell.

Rudra34
31-07-2012, 21:14
I voted fire, but not because it's bad. I just find the other lores to be less situational, whereas fire is only good against certain armies.

You should have included an option of, "They are all strong." I would have voted for that instead.

Malorian
31-07-2012, 21:14
My vote is heavens. Their spells are situational and the sig spell is pretty meh.

Agoz
31-07-2012, 21:16
As much as I love the lore, I'd have to go with beasts, with only one augment that effects units, and an emphasis on combat characters(a comparatively weak thing to emphasize in 8th edition) its a very situational and in my opinion weak lore.

Ulthwe's Tears
31-07-2012, 21:35
My vote is heavens. Their spells are situational and the sig spell is pretty meh.

Iceshard Blizzard is meh? What on earth...

Malorian
31-07-2012, 21:42
Iceshard Blizzard is meh? What on earth...

Don't get me wrong, -1 to hit is nice, but when I look at the other sig spells like a pumped up fire ball, or wild form, or snipe spell, it just doesn't seem equal. Plus if facing hatred or ASF rerolls it's doesn't really do anything.

I'm also not a big fan of the # 6 spell. It can be good but again is situational.

Urgat
31-07-2012, 21:56
Who knows... I'd love to try them some day :p

Graxy
31-07-2012, 21:57
I'm going to be my normal self and say that all the rulebook loresthis edition are broken (By this, I mean that they are by far better than any of the army specific lores, the only ones coming close to being as good being the skaven lores and the daemon lores). If I had to choose though, it'd easily have to be fire. Although it has IMO, the most reliable sig spell in the game,the rest of the lore, excluding flaming sword is pretty meh.

Lord Inquisitor
31-07-2012, 22:01
I've been using heavens on a level 2 with my ogres and I like it. It has some great spells for any army without access to re-rolls to hit. It's got a lot is versatile and subtle spells. The number 6 spell doesn't rock worlds but I've seen it hit virtually every unit in the enemy army.

I think the award for weakest lore has to go to Fire. Flaming Sword is really the only good spell, the humble fireball isn't bad but there's just nothing else in there.

Metal was a contender because it is situational but against some enemies it's extremely strong. Situational isn't great for a lore but it's sufficiently useful on a secondary caster as a tin opener it isn't bad.

Nope, fire is my vote.

The bearded one
31-07-2012, 22:11
I actually used a fire-slann for a while (it was good fun, instead of hopping about with T8 templeguard), and was pleasantly surprised by how surprisingly diverse it could be. Flaming cage can inhibit movement, piercing bolts lots of damage to deep units ( * glares at skaven busses * ) , flaming sword of simply a good buff alround, cascading cloak also quite a good one to amplify the damage 1 unit can do, or combat enemy glass cannons like swordmasters or witch elves. The fireball is fine, Flamestorm is a bit underwhelming though and burning head pretty bad, but the lore attribute is very useful most of the time, as opposed to such very situational ones like those of shadow, beast, heavens, etc.

I've gotta go with either heavens or beasts. The beast signature is really great, but the party pretty much ends right there, as the rest is fairly 'meh'. Heavens is a similar case. The signature, harmonic convergence and midnight wind are all quite fine, but the thunderbolt is a bit too much effort, windblast really very situational, and cassandora's and the #6 thunderzapper (I don't even remember its name!) are generally not all that impressive. They can do a bit of nifty damage, but a bit too randomly to be relied on.

Lord Inquisitor
31-07-2012, 22:32
Beast's signature is so good that it is frequently seen for that alone. Also many of the spells are great for making deathstars really silly. Transformation seems to be rarely used these days after it was all over the place in the early days of 8th, but it can still wreck your day.

Flame cage is a good spell, this is true. I can't say I've gotten much mileage out of the lore attribute. I've tried to spam low level fire wizards (Firebellies) and stack the lore attribute up and I just couldn't quite get it to work how it looked on paper. I've been pondering an Empire list built around this concept pushing the envelope - three level 1 fire and a level 4 fire decked out with power stones and the like. Throwing out 1 or 2 dice fireballs with the low level wizards, if let through building up serious kindleflame bonuses with the level 4.

Jadawin
31-07-2012, 22:33
I voted beasts, mainly because I think it only really has one useful spell; most of the time. I find lore of fire a funny one, I rarely go without a lv1 fire caster whenever I can but rarely bother with any other spells, which I suppose means I should have voted for it instead. But I always take fire when I can, so I cant. In conclusion im conflicted:)

What would be interesting would be if the "winner" of this poll was compared against the armybook lores to see where it would rank against the rest. Over to you Lord Dan.

The bearded one
31-07-2012, 22:42
Flame cage is a good spell, this is true. I can't say I've gotten much mileage out of the lore attribute. I've tried to spam low level fire wizards (Firebellies) and stack the lore attribute up and I just couldn't quite get it to work how it looked on paper. I've been pondering an Empire list built around this concept pushing the envelope - three level 1 fire and a level 4 fire decked out with power stones and the like. Throwing out 1 or 2 dice fireballs with the low level wizards, if let through building up serious kindleflame bonuses with the level 4.

Don't forget your ruby ring for yet another fireball.

Lord Dan
31-07-2012, 22:57
What would be interesting would be if the "winner" of this poll was compared against the armybook lores to see where it would rank against the rest. Over to you Lord Dan.

Done. I'll close this thread after a week.

NitrosOkay
31-07-2012, 23:08
Metal is very very situational. Fire lacks punch compared to most lores. Heavens is alright but other lores outclass it.

Rapahatsutt
31-07-2012, 23:13
Metal/Beasts IMO.

Fire is situational in that its great vs some and not so good vs others but most of the spells are good. With Metal/Beasts you are playing for half the deck, and most of the time just the sig spell and for that i voted beasts i think because its only taken for the sig spell or for savage beast.

pointyteeth
31-07-2012, 23:23
I voted for Metal. It is just too situational. Yes the 6 spell is nice, but other than that...

Fire probably would be my second choice. Besides Flaming Sword its a choice between S4 hits, S4 hits, S4 hits, S4 hits and what am I missing...oh yeah S4 hits.

Heaven's is a great deck in my opinion

e2055261
31-07-2012, 23:55
I voted for metals but only because it's the lore I see the least played.

Jack of Blades
01-08-2012, 00:14
The lore that would most make me go meh is Beasts. It's got a great signature spell but the rest of the lore is just not very strong - I'd say that it's outdone by the other lores but it doesn't really do enough so that it even can be outdone. I'd say this is not because of the lore but because of the way 8th edition works with less emphasis on fighter characters. I could see Savage Beast of Horros working out if you tried your chances with something like a unit of 10 knights and 5+ of them be characters then try to get the 20+ version off on them but yeah... The rest of the spells aren't up to par with the menaces of the other lores. I'd rather be affected by Curse of Anraheir than Miasma any day, Flock of Doom isn't something you'll consider when picking the lore and Amber Spear is pretty good to have but again not something you pick the lore for.

Moss
01-08-2012, 01:01
Metal is very very situational. Fire lacks punch compared to most lores. Heavens is alright but other lores outclass it.

This is what does it for me. Even those "situational" lores are better in my eyes because they're situational. It's "situational," but I have a use for Metal. It's not bad in any situation really, but I don't have a use for Fire because in almost every situation, there is another lore I'd rather have.

NitrosOkay
01-08-2012, 01:07
You'll see level 2's with Beasts all the time just because the signature is good.

You don't see that generally with metal or fire.

Rudra34
01-08-2012, 01:22
I use metal all the time to great success. The sig spell and golden hounds are situational, but glittering scales and enchanted blades are both incredible buffs. Couple that with a killer 6th spell and some decent debuffs, and it is a well rounded, fun to use lore. Also, if you get stuck up against an army that DOES have a lot of high armor units, then you can just wreck them.

tmarichards
01-08-2012, 02:21
I'd have to say Lore of Life, on the grounds that unless you have the entire lore (and often even then) it's just way too easy to play against- unless you're playing completely uncomped Warhammer, at which Dwellers becomes a good spell. However, every lore has good spells in the right circumstance- Life magic is pretty good on points denial lists, and Heavens is awesome on Brets- so it's not a case of "this lore is bad" it's more a case of "this lore is less good".

If I could create my own deck of spells I'd probably go with:

0. Wildform (best spell in the game hands down. Easy to cast and you're guaranteed to get it without Loremaster. In a lot of situations, it's like a Mindrazor that makes you harder to kill)
1. Pha's
2. Flaming Sword
3. Soulblight
4. Doom and Darkness
5. Flame Cage
6. Mindrazor

Rosstifer
01-08-2012, 02:38
I'd have to say Lore of Life, on the grounds that unless you have the entire lore (and often even then) it's just way too easy to play against- unless you're playing completely uncomped Warhammer, at which Dwellers becomes a good spell.


Yeah I'd probably agree there, at the very least it's gratuitously overrated. Whenever I play it I just go all out stopping Throne and the rest does very little.

tmarichards
01-08-2012, 02:51
I actually go the other way around, I usually let people have Throne of Vines and stop Flesh to Stone then dispel Throne in my own magic phase.

Rosstifer
01-08-2012, 03:02
Our local Wood Elf and Empire players take it almost exclusively, I'm not fussed about them being T5 as pretty much my whole army is S5, haven't found it makes much of a difference.
Plus, I want to cast my own spells in my Magic phase (Often Soulblight, which negates half of flesh to stone anyway).

They 6 dice Dwellers alot too, which doesn't bother me too much with a S4 army, knights get S5 pretty easily from a Warshrine.

Why
01-08-2012, 03:10
Beasts is a great lore.

Wyssan's nothing more to be said.
Crow thing, well very bad but atleast it has good range:)
Pann's, situational but can help keep squishy characters alive.
Amber spear, awesome spell great for non cannon armies.
Curse of anraheir has potential to do as much damage dwellers. Especially if you play it right with open ground counting as terrain. + crazy good range.
Savage beast, situational but the boosted version cast on 3 characters is awesome.
Transformation, mountain chimera kicks ****.

My vote goes to fire, but metal wasn't far behind.

Lord Dan
01-08-2012, 04:34
I actually go the other way around, I usually let people have Throne of Vines and stop Flesh to Stone then dispel Throne in my own magic phase.

I stop throne just so my opponent has a major risk of miscasting if he wants to 5-dice dwellers.

tmarichards
01-08-2012, 04:41
That's certainly true, but the miscast table is so forgiving that it rarely does anything they're worried about- and if it does, most lists that would be affected by losing their level 4 or D3 wizard levels carry an Earthing Rod.

NitrosOkay
01-08-2012, 04:57
Dispelling throne in your own phase seems like a painful loss of power dice but then again I play Vampires.

mostlyharmless
01-08-2012, 05:10
I can't say I've ever seen a use for Lore of Heavens. Lore of Metal, on the other hand, is awesome. You can make some great synergy with other army features while using Lore of Metal, which is why I use it with Dark Elves.

Rosstifer
01-08-2012, 05:38
That's certainly true, but the miscast table is so forgiving that it rarely does anything they're worried about- and if it does, most lists that would be affected by losing their level 4 or D3 wizard levels carry an Earthing Rod.

It's a little less forgiving with Puppet. :cool:.

Lord Dan
01-08-2012, 05:42
It's a little less forgiving with Puppet. :cool:.

...and to people who aren't me. :(

My wizards eat warp every time!!

Lord Solar Plexus
01-08-2012, 07:23
I've seen a few of these polls for the strongest lore, but never for the weakest. Please take a moment to answer the poll, above.

There is no weakest lore. Of course some spells and lores are better in certain circumstances but I don't think that detracts from my statement. Everyone who say Fire is weak should try its S4 hits instead of Dweller's or Pit for a change when he's up against T3.

Fire is one of the most useful lores in fact. Some enemies ignore your armour, some aren't affected by your increased WS or Ini, and some don't care if they move d3 less. There's always something that you can throw a fireball at. The Lore also covers two bases I consider essential: It has a very good magic missiles to clear away skirmishers and other chaff (Shades in a building anyone?) and it provides flaming attacks.

Heavens is much underrated as well. The Comet does a little less damage than other big spells but is only 12 (!). Re-rolling 1's with Imperial Knights is pretty cool, and so is having those Killing Blowers re-roll their 6's.



I'm going to be my normal self and say that all the rulebook loresthis edition are broken (By this, I mean that they are by far better than any of the army specific lores, the only ones coming close to being as good being the skaven lores and the daemon lores).


I'm not sure that is true. The AB lores are often just a wee bit weaker. In addition to the two you've named, HE, DE, CW, Vamps and Empire all have very useful spells, many of them devastating or just plain cheap to cast.

Jind_Singh
01-08-2012, 07:37
Surprised at the sheer amount of votes lore of fire got - there are more worse lores than fire!! I love fire!!!!

ArtificerArmour
01-08-2012, 08:37
I second LSP, my beasts would kill for metal and fire, yet beasts work really well with them.

I think metals an underated lore. Ive found, even against my beasts, it causes problems.

Id probably say light is the worst.

SkawtheFalconer
01-08-2012, 09:07
Beasts is a great lore.

Agree completely - Beasts is my fave lore (particularly for my Wood Elves). Wyssans is fantastic, Anraheir is hugely underrated (losing a third of the unit vs pinning a unit in place is a really tough decision - tell anyone who claims open ground isn't terrain to get stuffed), and Amber Spear is a great way to deal with big stuff (of which there seems to be more and more in 8th ed).

Savage Beast and Pann's Pelt can be useful situationally, Crow spell is OK. I'm not a fan of transformation, as it's too easy with steadfast to just dispel in opponents turn and then have a weedy wizard in combat (or have a chimera overrun, and be shot to pieces when transformed back to a weedy Wiz), but Beasts is worth it for the three I mention above alone.

Metal probably gets my vote - largely only useful if fighting against Knight heavy lists (or Dwarfs to a lesser extent), it is too situational, and while they all are, this one seems particularly so.

Ulthwe's Tears
01-08-2012, 10:41
Different lores work well with different armies - Heavens is far less effective with the reroll heavy High Elves than with the naturally strong but lacking reroll Warriors, for example. Similarly different lores work better on different level wizards - Beasts or Heavens can be great on Lv.1s or 4s but can struggle in between.

Beasts - Wildform is as good a spell as you can get. Anraheir is great and Amber Spear is quite good. I think you either need a level 1 or a level 4 - otherwise you can't reliably get the more useful spells. It tends to work with most armies that can get it pretty well - who doesn't want a wildform? It isn't the strongest lore, but it can make a significant difference. The attribute is ok, unless you are a Beastmen.

Heavens - Probably the least obvious lore. Lots of rerolls and effective counters to killing blow/poison. Comet is nice to try and reach distant areas as well as shape the opponent's movement. Iceshard is brilliant - it can turn a combat in your favour for a small casting value. The other spells are decent, but the lore is better versus MSU armies which are less prevalent at the moment. Attribute is barely relevant but occasionally it comes in handy.

Life - it helps you not die, which is nice, but 8th edition is about killing so this is less useful than it seems. The problem with it is that it is too focused on buffing a singular unit and is quite reliant on Throne of Vines. As tmarichards said, you realistically need the whole lore. In general a one dimensional lore, but can still be useful. Flesh to Stoned White Lions are horrible. Its ability to bring back models is overstated - if you are in a dire situation it will likely not save you.

Light - Great buffs, great ranged prowess, Pha's Protection. It is clearly excellent. Attribute is quite good.

Shadow - Less versatile than light - it lacks good ranged prowess - but its debuffs and buffs are incomparable. The attribute can be very useful in certain situations, though is often forgotten.

Fire - Fireball is an excellent and versatile spell, almost better than Wildform as a signature spell. Flame cage is great - not many spells can affect movement in a meaningful way and it can be also be used nastily when cast into combat. Flaming sword is also quite nice. The problem is that there aren't 4 great spells so devoting a level 4 seems wasteful but at the same time you need it to reliably get the best spells. Particularly in regards to the attribute, it works well on multiple low level casters. Therefore I'd call it the best complementary lore. Maybe the worst primary lore, though.

Metal - underrated and particularly useful with some of the newer army books. Enchanted blades is one of the few (only?) places you can get magical attacks via a buff, which can be situationally useful. Final Transmutation is an underrated super spell. Overall it is pretty good, but I feel it would be unreliable as your only magic lore.

Death - there are always characters to kill so this lore will never be useless. Has some good buffs and purple sun is always nice. A really strong lore.

Therefore I'd say there are no useless lores. Some however have a wider degree of usefulness - shadow, light, death with beasts a little behind them. Life is probably the worst.

Askari
01-08-2012, 10:49
For my Empire, Metal and Heavens are actually pretty useful - Metal giving Greatswords a 2+ save, giving a Helblaster magical attacks, armour piercing and +1 to hit is just horrible. I think the #6 spell for Metal is vastly underrated as well, it's like the other uber spells, but isn't as dependant on the enemy, it just deletes a third of a unit and gives Stupidity in a 12" bubble around that unit as well. The casting cost is pretty low to boot, with a decent range. Heavens is great in a Knight list, re-rolling those 1s for armour saves or wounding with Lances is fantastic. As is making it harder for the enemy to hit, and Wind Blast and Comet can control your opponent's movement pretty well, an extra boost for such a mobile army.

My Skaven and Vampires use their own Lores, so there's that.

Still, I vote Heavens, as it really depends on the list you're taking, and even in the ideal situation isn't as powerful as Metal (which is devastating against the right list).

Ronin[XiC]
01-08-2012, 11:06
Heavens rerolling 1's is so nasty is you combine it with 2 hellblasters and 2 engis (you can cast the spell in a 12" bubble). It's also great on cannons who can then reroll the dreadful 1's on wounding. Rerolling 1's on 1+ cav? absolutely!

Comet is THE underrated mass destruction spell in the game. It's so incredibly effective against everything that tries to hide in the corner (dwarfs, empire, chaos dwarfs etc). It can literally wipe out half of the enemy army. The only sucky spell is the windblast which is just plain bad (but that's the spell you exchange for the signaturespell which IS pretty good (especially in combination with all the other buffs and debuffs (don't forget the 5++ a warrior priest can cast)))

I once had -1 to hit and reroll 6's on the enemy unit, rerolling 1's and 5++ on my unit of knights... he did absolutely nothing to me.

Sexiest_hero
01-08-2012, 11:23
All the lores are useful. I don't feel there is a "Weakest". Some are used less, only because of army book restrictions. (My beasts would love metal or Heavens)

Graeme
01-08-2012, 11:56
I voted heavens, purely because I play Lizzies and Skink Priests are stuck with it. I never seem to get any decent return and would be happy to swap out for any other lore (including fire).

[yay! 100th post!]

Athlan na Dyr
01-08-2012, 12:19
I'd say Beasts is the weakest. Whilst an army can be built to take advantage of any spell other than Wyssan's by spamming characters, I'd classify this as a weak build for most armies that the benefit from the spells does little to mitigate. Strong Signature, but the rest is hardly jaw dropping and the Attribute is poor.

Next would be Fire. Again, the basic spell is strong and makes a mess of small units. The rest of the lore does this as well, generally inflicting a few S4 hits and a special effect. Unfortunately unit sizes are generally large enough to laugh this off. To me Fire is a far less efficient use of power dice to kill people than some of the other lores, which is wierd as the sum total point of Fire is to kill people.

Most definitely not next is Metal. I think its a fan-bloody-tastic lore, or at least half of it is. The 6th spell with a whopping 36" range, 'delete a third of a unit' with a nice little stupidity bonus is great value for 18+. Glittering Robe is great at upping survivability and is cheap at 9+ (the bubble version is all shades of awesome). Finally Enchanted Blades is wonderful at increasing Damage and does double duty as an ethereal deterrent.
The other half is situational to meh. Transmutation is not the best ever made, though can be nice is the combat is tight. Gehenna's requires a heavily armoured hero and unit to be effective though can come off. Plague of Rust is nice if you have the odd power dice left and are out of range with other things (first turn, for example). Finally the signature is poor against anything but Heavy Cavalry or Hydras. The Attribute is great if your army lacks the tools to stick it to heavily armoured troops.

Snake1311
01-08-2012, 12:50
Magic is designed to fill gaps and cover flaws in your list/army, so no lore is the weakest.

But since that isn't actually an option, I voted for Life. Beyond dwellers, which is disgustingly broken, it has nothing all that impressive, whilst requiring throne in game for its spells to be on par.

The bearded one
01-08-2012, 13:09
Magic is designed to fill gaps and cover flaws in your list/army, so no lore is the weakest.

But since that isn't actually an option, I voted for Life. Beyond dwellers, which is disgustingly broken, it has nothing all that impressive, whilst requiring throne in game for its spells to be on par.

Having T6 5+ regenerating templeguard typically tends to get the job done for me, when people are so adamant on dispelling thrones over them :p

T10
01-08-2012, 13:23
But what is the second weakest Lore? Huh?

-T10

Ghremdal
01-08-2012, 13:35
I think life works only when you have access to loremaster AND a source of extra PD. Otherwise I don't think its such a good lore; multiple spells need to get up to be effective.

Snake1311
01-08-2012, 14:00
Having T6 5+ regenerating templeguard typically tends to get the job done for me, when people are so adamant on dispelling thrones over them :p

I'm pretty sure any two buffs on a single unit will get the job done for you :P

As I said, every lore has its place. In the temple guard's case though, wouldn't +2 armour be better than a 5+ regen (metal) ? In most cases, it would be an improvement. Similarly, enfeebling foe or sometimes curse of the midnight wind (shadow / heavens) will have a on-par defensive effect with +2 toughness. Nothing special really.

Where I have seen Life shine is in armies which can max out on the benefits from the lore attribute. Its also decent in armies with a lot of expensive stubborn infantry models for spamming regrowth (so, temple guard and white lions).

The bearded one
01-08-2012, 14:09
As I said, every lore has its place. In the temple guard's case though, wouldn't +2 armour be better than a 5+ regen (metal) ?

It wouldn't. Glittering robe is a 5+ scaly skin, which templeguard already have.

Stupid, isnt it?

Lord Solar Plexus
01-08-2012, 14:28
;6354344']
Comet is THE underrated mass destruction spell in the game. It's so incredibly effective against everything that tries to hide in the corner (dwarfs, empire, chaos dwarfs etc). It can literally wipe out half of the enemy army. The only sucky spell is the windblast which is just plain bad (but that's the spell you exchange for the signaturespell which IS pretty good (especially in combination with all the other buffs and debuffs (don't forget the 5++ a warrior priest can cast)))

A comet is just as good against stuff that comes over. 24 Chaos Warriors, 30 White Lions, Rat Ogres, Greatswords...it might not kill the whol eunit in one fell swoop but it is often just as good as a Helblaster, or better since you don't need to hit.

Pushing stuff back is not bad at all. In fact it can make the difference between winning and losing, get stuff out of the Ld bubble and whatnot. It is a very subtle and very useful spell.



Next would be Fire. Again, the basic spell is strong and makes a mess of small units. The rest of the lore does this as well, generally inflicting a few S4 hits and a special effect. Unfortunately unit sizes are generally large enough to laugh this off.


That is objectively not true, Athlan. Fire is THE unit deleter lore against huge masses. All those big spells usually require a stat test, and with a few exceptions like Ini, that's often a 50:50 chance or half a unit. One only kills on 5 or 6+. S4 against T3 - and almost all huge units will be T3 - kills on a 3. It's just as useful against something like Wood Elves.

Fire is only weaker against heavily armoured stuff but that goes for my Halberdiers as well!

loveless
01-08-2012, 14:38
Heavens is the most situational from my perspective - I'd likely change my mind if I were playing, say, Empire instead of Vampire Counts. I'm not a big fan of Beasts or Fire, but I can see more uses for them than Heavens. Shadow and Death are my go-tos for back-up casters, regardless of army in most cases.

Agoz
01-08-2012, 16:11
I get a ton of use out of metal with empire, 2+ armor save greatswords is something to see, and I really don't find the lore to be all that situational, aside from the two magic missiles, every other spell has a use as an augment or hex. I'm also surprised to see all the hate fire is getting, sure it isn't great on a lvl 4, but for a level 2 it is a very versitile lore, with the signature spell giving you 3 spells in one, and the rest being pretty good (and cheap) direct damage spells or a good hex or buff, the lore attribute is especially good if you're packing the ruby ring.

AlphariusOmegon20
01-08-2012, 16:12
I voted beasts, mainly because I think it only really has one useful spell

I take it you don't have a Tzeentch Daemon army.

Trust me, Amber Spear is invaluable in an army that doesn't have War Machines of any kind, especially if you can loremaster Beasts on multiple characters....

Spiney Norman
01-08-2012, 16:17
The weakest of the 8 is heavens, the signature is terrible, and even the major damage spell is pretty lame compared to other brb lores. Having said that, heavens is still better than most of the 8th edition army lores so its not that I would never use it in the right situation, but when you're stacking it up against life and shadows it's never going to look that special.

I would rank the lores something like this
Top lores; life/shadows (depending on army synergy, but generally have the tools to make a difference in most situations)
Upper Mid range lores; beasts, metal (brilliant lores in the right situation, but need the army to be built to order to make the most of them)
Mid range; death & light, (very specialised and situation, but nonetheless good at what they do)
Lower Mid range; fire, heavens (they just don't have the raw punch of the others, the augments in heavens are a bit too subtle to make much of a difference most of the time, fire is brutal on low T/low save units, but not good for much else.)

Askari
01-08-2012, 16:27
I would rank the lores something like this
Top lores; life/shadows (depending on army synergy, but generally have the tools to make a difference in most situations)
Upper Mid range lores; beasts, metal (brilliant lores in the right situation, but need the army to be built to order to make the most of them)
Mid range; death & light, (very specialised and situation, but nonetheless good at what they do)
Lower Mid range; fire, heavens (they just don't have the raw punch of the others, the augments in heavens are a bit too subtle to make much of a difference most of the time, fire is brutal on low T/low save units, but not good for much else.)

Beasts and Metal above Light really? Light is less specialised than Metal, and the combos available in Light, imo, surpass even Life or Shadow, mainly due to lower casting values. The only off spell is Light of Battle, and even then it has it's uses and there's a decent signature to swap for.

The bearded one
01-08-2012, 16:32
Beasts and Metal above Light really? Light is less specialised than Metal, and the combos available in Light, imo, surpass even Life or Shadow, mainly due to lower casting values. The only off spell is Light of Battle, and even then it has it's uses and there's a decent signature to swap for.

I was thinking the same. I agree with spiney's ranking, if you swap the 'upper mid' and 'mid' ranges around.

Curiously enough, I now use a light Slann, and his little skink assistant generally uses iceshard blizzard unless I can roll harmonic convergence, and the -1 from iceshard stacks really well with pha's protection and speed of light. I can force a WS10 model that is fighting a skink, to only hit him on a 6+.

Antipathy
01-08-2012, 16:56
I voted fire. However Im reasonably surprised at Dwath. It has such a small range of spells its not funny. 3 Sniper Spells, a fear augment (which is rendered useless by 3 armies which can use it, and easy access to immune to fear/psychology etc) and a debuff that doesnt stack especially well with the rest of the lore.

It does not cause much damage, and its lore attribute has very little efficiency/reliability unless you can guarantee purple sun. It can be useful with a secondary caster to try and spam cast spirit leech against champions when your characters use challenges to win (WoC, Korhil on Chariot, Skulltaker etc).

Lord Inquisitor
01-08-2012, 16:56
What are people smoking saying Life is the weakest Lore? :wtf:

Given that Life is one of the two most taken Lores in tournament lists for armies with access to all Lores (the other being Shadow, although Death and Light are close behind) I don't think we can say it's the weakest Lore.

Just look at what it does! Flesh to Stone is awesome even without Throne. Compare it with the Ogre spell of +1T, same casting value, half the range. Throne is awesome, miscast protection is golden never mind it makes the rest of the Lore brilliant. It's going to cost your opponent if he lets it through, if he dispels it or in his turn you're ahead. Regrowth is often very useful. Dwellers is dwellers. The other spells are all useful, with earth blood the most situational but excellent for any combat unit with a wizard in like Templeguard.

Spiney Norman
01-08-2012, 16:59
Beasts and Metal above Light really? Light is less specialised than Metal, and the combos available in Light, imo, surpass even Life or Shadow, mainly due to lower casting values. The only off spell is Light of Battle, and even then it has it's uses and there's a decent signature to swap for.

Sorry I disagree, light is brilliant in some situations and pretty lacklustre in others, it's brilliant in a Saurus lizardmen army as it plugs the major weakness, but in any case it's of relatively little use in the early turns other than the rather average sig spell. Metal on the other hand is more of a Swiss army knife lore, I've used it extensively with my empire army, both with the 7th and 8th edition army books, every spell is useful in most game turns (unless you are fighting a foe with no armour at all). I also find metal damage spells are good for things that other units struggle with, guaranteed heavy armour removal. I suppose I just find that the buffs in beasts and metal generally synergise better with my army builds than the light buffs do, but then again I do love a good net of amyntok.

I also have had rather poor results from death, the reason most people use it as nothing more than a PSX gun is because the rest of the spells are pretty poor IMHO, character assasination spells are all well and good, but buff spells are really where its at in the magic phase and death has none.

Petey
01-08-2012, 21:02
Fire, as lore of light does it's tricks but better, and provides better spell diversification. Alchemy can also be a strong substitute for fire.

Fire's weakness is that the lore attribute is weak and the spells are repetitive. The spell that might redeem it in my eyes is sword or ruin, but even that is weak because it's remains in play rather than until your next magic phase. Honestly, I would like to like fire, as I play HE and it's thematic, but I just can't justify taking it.

Ulthwe's Tears
01-08-2012, 21:08
The weakest of the 8 is heavens, the signature is terrible, and even the major damage spell is pretty lame compared to other brb lores. Having said that, heavens is still better than most of the 8th edition army lores so its not that I would never use it in the right situation, but when you're stacking it up against life and shadows it's never going to look that special.


How is Iceshard Blizzard terrible? It can be used in every turn for a variety of purposes. To limit shooting, to potentially stop a warmachine, to make it harder for an opponent to pass a break test, to turn combats in your favour and is cheap to cast. I don't disagree about the rest of the lore, which is variable in use, but Iceshard is so good.

Rosstifer
01-08-2012, 21:09
The weakest of the 8 is heavens, the signature is terrible

Iceshard Blizzard is terrible? Erm, what?

It's an amazing spell. How could you not think it is?

The bearded one
01-08-2012, 21:41
The spell that might redeem it in my eyes is sword or ruin, but even that is weak because it's remains in play rather than until your next magic phase.

flaming sword of ruin is a regular augment, not a remains in play.

Hashut-Up!
01-08-2012, 22:20
I have to go with the Lore of Beasts in regards to the effectiveness/use i've seen out of it. First off, I've hardly ever seen it used. Every army with access to it and other lores I have played against has typically chose a different lore. When I have seen it (used with a Daemons of Chaos army) the only two spells that had any potential was the signature spell and Curse of Anraheir. The other spells are very situation-based or pretty bad (see Flock of Doom). That being said, amber spear has potential in armies that do not have more conventional means of multiple wound attacks.

I have to argue against fire being the weakest. I have been playing it as a support lore rather than main in my Chaos Dwarves list for a little while now and it has never let me down. While I would never take it on my level 4 (Lore of Hashut all the way) the Lore of Fire has at the very least 3 very useful spells. Fireball is great at dealing with minor threats/annoying units, flame cage scares the crap out of any large hordes and messes with a persons battle plan (flame cage one unit, ash storm another and your opponent has a pretty terrible turn ahead....) and flaming sword of rhuin is amazing on anything with multiple attacks or shots (hailshot blunderbusses!). Sure it might not have the direct impact spells like Pit, Lurker, Mindrazor and Purple sun have on the game, but if played alongside your armies strengths with purpose it can be very good indeed

Kaos
01-08-2012, 22:54
I would say metal or beast.. In my woc army i use heavens and fire actually. Heavens got only good spells when you know how to use them. Fire is great for my army.

Skickat från min MT15i via Tapatalk 2

Athlan na Dyr
02-08-2012, 01:20
(from me)
Next would be Fire. Again, the basic spell is strong and makes a mess of small units. The rest of the lore does this as well, generally inflicting a few S4 hits and a special effect. Unfortunately unit sizes are generally large enough to laugh this off.
That is objectively not true, Athlan. Fire is THE unit deleter lore against huge masses. All those big spells usually require a stat test, and with a few exceptions like Ini, that's often a 50:50 chance or half a unit. One only kills on 5 or 6+. S4 against T3 - and almost all huge units will be T3 - kills on a 3. It's just as useful against something like Wood Elves.

Fire is only weaker against heavily armoured stuff but that goes for my Halberdiers as well!

Ah, but most of those stat test also hit every model. With the exception of Flame Cage, fire will generally generate fewer hits (a 3D6 fireball is 11.5 on average, Flame storm is scatter dependant, Piercing bolts is 2 per rank). Whilst it may wound easier, there is also the issue of armour saves and ward saves/magic resistance as well. I'm sure there are units where Fire spells are more effective than Transmutation and so on, but by and large the later are the spells you would want to defang enemy units, rather than fire.
That said fire is incredibly useful to finish off severely weakened units/ chaff, which is why I didn't put it last.

NitrosOkay
02-08-2012, 01:41
Devil's advocate here.

Fire Storm also goes off on a very reasonable 13+(16+ large template), if you've already cast a fire spell on the unit it's anywhere from 12+ to 10+. Final Transmutation is 15+(18+ for the long-range) with no way of easing the casting value. Dwellers is 18+/21+.

It also has almost twice the range of Final Transmutation and almost triple the range of Dwellers.

To really measure the value of Fire Storm you'd need to compare it to other spells cast on a ~11/12+.

Spells like Fire Storm are pretty army-specific though.

Either you hit 20 Elf elites, cause 13-14 wounds and kill 11-12 models or you hit 12 Warriors of Chaos, do 6 wounds and kill 3 models. Dramatically different results depending on the army being fought.

WusteGeist
02-08-2012, 04:25
Fire the weakest? This is foolishness at its grandest height. I found the trick to make flame cage dreaded by all who cant afford to have a 2+ ward from spell damage. It has only been made stronger and stronger.
Here is how fire is not even close to the weakest spells.
1 Not having to roll to wound. Flaming sword on a cannon or anything st6 or greater. That's just mean.
2 Fireball is stupid easy to cast and has a range of the board. 2d6 on a 10 at range 36"? Yes please.
3 Piercing bolts on rat ranks? Thats pretty damn handy.
4 Flame cage trick, my greatest trick of them all made famous. Fight a block with a character in it issue a challenge, as long as there character is not base to base with yours he must move and flame trick triggers. It has been made real by two supporting FAQ's and at least 2 Indy Gt's support the ruling. Not only that some tourney scene has said that now if you kill the unit champ it triggers. The unit champ version of this trick is NOT my doing I take no credit for that one.
So enough with this madness of fire the weakest of them all.

Lord Dan
02-08-2012, 05:12
Flame cage trick, my greatest trick of them all made famous. Fight a block with a character in it issue a challenge, as long as there character is not base to base with yours he must move and flame trick triggers. It has been made real by two supporting FAQ's

Can you show us the FAQ for that one? I only ask because the rules for moving characters in a challenge aren't always so cut and dry as "Challenged character moves to you", particularly in instances where one or more character are unable to move.

CreativeNameToStandOut
02-08-2012, 05:35
I voted heavens but now I'm thinking maybe death like suggested by two others because while purple sun is destructive against some armies, the snipes can easily be fluffed because of the target may have really good stats, and the other 3 spells may not always have a big enough impact. But I think overall it's clear that the lores are very equal since we have all argued for different lores pretty convincingly based on different situations.

Spiney Norman
02-08-2012, 08:06
How is Iceshard Blizzard terrible? It can be used in every turn for a variety of purposes. To limit shooting, to potentially stop a warmachine, to make it harder for an opponent to pass a break test, to turn combats in your favour and is cheap to cast. I don't disagree about the rest of the lore, which is variable in use, but Iceshard is so good.

Again it's very meta dependent, I don't fight many armies that rely much on shooting so iceshard is a bit meh for me, I guess I can see some application for it vs dwarfs or empire, at least it's not as wtf as the spell that moves an enemy unit backwards. Still it's far from the best sig spell available.

Ulthwe's Tears
02-08-2012, 08:43
Again it's very meta dependent, I don't fight many armies that rely much on shooting so iceshard is a bit meh for me, I guess I can see some application for it vs dwarfs or empire, at least it's not as wtf as the spell that moves an enemy unit backwards. Still it's far from the best sig spell available.

But every army has to fight in combat? It acts both defensively and offensively - it prevents you being hit and acts as a mini(stackable) Doom and Darkness, making it a little easier to break steadfast.

It isn't quite the best signature spell, mind. Wildform is much better. Fireball for most armies is more flexible and useful. Miasma is better. The rest probably depend a great deal on your list's strengths for judging the relative value.


Can you show us the FAQ for that one? I only ask because the rules for moving characters in a challenge aren't always so cut and dry as "Challenged character moves to you", particularly in instances where one or more character are unable to move.

It doesn't always work, which is why you still have to ensure that the opposing character must move, but if you do it correctly it is nasty.

Trains_Get_Robbed
02-08-2012, 10:04
I'd have to say Lore of Life, on the grounds that unless you have the entire lore (and often even then) it's just way too easy to play against- unless you're playing completely uncomped Warhammer, at which Dwellers becomes a good spell. However, every lore has good spells in the right circumstance- Life magic is pretty good on points denial lists, and Heavens is awesome on Brets- so it's not a case of "this lore is bad" it's more a case of "this lore is less good".

If I could create my own deck of spells I'd probably go with:

0. Wildform (best spell in the game hands down. Easy to cast and you're guaranteed to get it without Loremaster. In a lot of situations, it's like a Mindrazor that makes you harder to kill)
1. Pha's
2. Flaming Sword
3. Soulblight
4. Doom and Darkness
5. Flame Cage
6. Mindrazor

Tm: I think mine would looks similar to yours, though I would dump Flame Cage for Pit of Shades, it's too good a spell. In addition, the lack of a Vortex isn't a big deal, but I would look at it depending on the caster involved PSX has the possibility to wreck face. Curse of Anarheir can also be argued to replace Soulblight, but that depends on the number six, while the number four slot in every lore seems to just. . . suck. My front half would be the same however.


What are people smoking saying Life is the weakest Lore? :wtf:

Given that Life is one of the two most taken Lores in tournament lists for armies with access to all Lores (the other being Shadow, although Death and Light are close behind) I don't think we can say it's the weakest Lore.

Just look at what it does! Flesh to Stone is awesome even without Throne. Compare it with the Ogre spell of +1T, same casting value, half the range. Throne is awesome, miscast protection is golden never mind it makes the rest of the Lore brilliant. It's going to cost your opponent if he lets it through, if he dispels it or in his turn you're ahead. Regrowth is often very useful. Dwellers is dwellers. The other spells are all useful, with earth blood the most situational but excellent for any combat unit with a wizard in like Templeguard.

Lord I: I have to disagree with you for the first time in awhile. Lore of Life is rather lackluster, even in uncomp'd warhammer where Dwellers can be dumb, there's realistically a single army in the entire game that can effectively run it, and the other two are arguably and distantly off in second and third, using Light or Shadows.

The bearded one
02-08-2012, 12:02
Lord I: I have to disagree with you for the first time in awhile. Lore of Life is rather lackluster, even in uncomp'd warhammer where Dwellers can be dumb, there's realistically a single army in the entire game that can effectively run it, and the other two are arguably and distantly off in second and third, using Light or Shadows.

Which 3 armies are those?

Spiney Norman
02-08-2012, 12:15
Which 3 armies are those?

IMHO the only way to get the best out of the lore of life is with a loremaster wizard. Ironically the sig spell is possibly the worst of all the 8 since it only works on the casters unit and you rarely want your wizard on the front line.

I would guess the "three" are Lizardmen whose Slann totally wreck face with life, Teclis High elves and Tzeentch daemons with Master of sorc.

With the full tool box, life is great, but throne is essential to making the lore work which is somewhat annoying as you basically have to cast a spell in order to get the most out of your other spells, which makes it an easier lore to play against. For that reason I would never bring a life wizard with less than 4 levels, and IMHO shadows is a better option for non-loremaster L4 that have the choice as the spells are stand-alone better, the sig is awesome and mind-razor is the best spell in battle magic.

That said, I would certainly never describe life as "lacklustre", T8 blocks of temple guard with regen say otherwise. Wall of thorns is a waste of space, but dwellers is rightly feared by any army with T3 hordes in it and throne is the only way for most armies to get access to proper miscast protection.

The bearded one
02-08-2012, 12:26
Opponents often are adamant on dispelling throne of vines, but that often comes at the cost of having to let some of the other dangerous spells go through. I can't even really remember the last time I've had throne and flesh on at the same time :p

Spiney Norman
02-08-2012, 13:04
Opponents often are adamant on dispelling throne of vines, but that often comes at the cost of having to let some of the other dangerous spells go through. I can't even really remember the last time I've had throne and flesh on at the same time :p

It does depend on the situation and distribution of PD/DD at the time, but I generally find it more efficient to allow thrones through, then dispel the spells that will actually do something to affect the battle, having throne active is inconsequential unless you get another spell throug to make use of it.

I've managed to get the "Unbreakable" TG block to work a few times, but it genially requires terrible luck on behalf of your opponent or a late turn when your opponents main dispelling wizards are already dead.

The bearded one
02-08-2012, 14:10
That's very true. The best I got recently, was having throne already active from an earlier turn but which my VC opponent didn't dispel (come to think of it, it might've been that he first dispelled shield of thorns, and then rolled 1 short on throne of vines, or something), then regeneration being let through (flesh was more important to stop), but then rolling an IF on 4 dice for flesh to stone. To be fair, that IF consisted of 6, 6, 5, 4, and my opponent also only had 4 dice left, so even if one of those 6's had been a 1, the total had been 16 (20 with wizardlevel) and he'd have to roll 2 above average to dispell, let alone if that second 6 was something like a 3 or 4. I rolled high enough to be decently safe.

Lord Inquisitor
02-08-2012, 15:30
Lord I: I have to disagree with you for the first time in awhile. Lore of Life is rather lackluster, even in uncomp'd warhammer where Dwellers can be dumb, there's realistically a single army in the entire game that can effectively run it, and the other two are arguably and distantly off in second and third, using Light or Shadows.

Bearing in mind there aren't that many armies that can run life:

Bretonnians. Life is the default choice, buffing toughness - great. Mitigating miscasts - essential. Signature is useful as wizard is in hammer unit. Resurrecting knights useful. Lore attribute great.
Daemons. Life vies with death, light and shadow on the loremaster but Life is one of the most popular choices. Lore attribute worth its weight in gold keeping the greater daemon alive. After that, buffing toughness of daemons (which are largely T3) is excellent.
High Elves. I have gotten used to the idea that elves are just T7.
Lizardmen. Like Brets, Lizards have a wizard embedded in a combat unit. Mitigating miscasts is necessary. After that, all of the spells are useful including the sig as in a combat unit.
Empire. Life has a bit of competition here, but I see it often enough, particularly the lore attribute is excellent in keeping all their big stuff alive, dwellers is vicious, T7 empire troops often offend. Empire really have the cheapest level fours with full access to rulebook Lores, giving some horrific combinations like Lvl 4 Life + Lvl 4 Shadow.
Am I missing anyone? Wood Elves? Don't see enough of them really to comment.

I'm not going to say Life is necessarily the best but it is definitely up there. It has hands down the best Lore Attribute and dirt cheap casting values. I see Life very regularly at tournaments. The top four are definitely Life, Shadow, Death, Light and in terms of how often I see them used I'd probably go Shadow>Life>Light>Death.

If you look at various comp systems Life is often heavily penalised. Off the top of my head, the Swedish comp system penalises Life the most on a daemon loremaster herald for example.

NitrosOkay
02-08-2012, 16:15
Dispelling Throne of Vines is generally a good call if you actually want to cast things in your own magic phase. Wasting power dice dispelling it on your phase is painful.

Lord Dan
02-08-2012, 16:23
Dispelling Throne of Vines is generally a good call if you actually want to cast things in your own magic phase. Wasting power dice dispelling it on your phase is painful.

This. Additionally:

1) Throne of Vines is typically the LoL's (awesome acronym) 2 dice spell, making it easier to dispel than others.
2) If you let Throne of Vines off the other spells go from "not bad" to "OMG I NEED TO STOP THAT!!!" This means that in those inevitable instances that you fail to dispel, you're going to hurt a lot more.
3) Your opponent isn't ever really going to fear miscasting, making him more likely to chuck stupid amounts of dice at nasty spells like Dwellers.

Phazael
02-08-2012, 16:27
Life is probably the worst lore, because you basically have to build your army around its use. Plus, its a crap lore when Vines is down. Dwellers is the only spell that is consistantly useful and its the hardest to cast kill spell in the game.

Honorable mention has to go to Death. If it weren't for Ogres being popular making Purple Sun attractive, that lore would never see play. All the spells are short range and most do nothing one you are in close combat. Even Fire has more things to do once you are stuck in.

Phazael
02-08-2012, 16:31
ps- You guys saying Heavens is the worst lore do not know what you are talking about. I guess if your entire magic strategy is to 6 dice bowl something every turn, then yeah ok, but Heavens has some of the easiest to cast, diverse, and long range spells of any lore. If Shadow were not so easily accessable and retardedly better, Heavens would easily trump it as the best lore in the game. In the age of Steadfast, Ice Shard is massively better than Miasma.

Jericho
02-08-2012, 16:31
Yep that's one of the big weaknesses of Life, it really has a lot more "ifs" involved. You need Throne for it to be fully effective and you need the right spells for the situation (obviously Loremaster is HUGE here), and you need enough dice for it all to work. Not rolling Throne, or having it dispelled, really cramps your style.

The Lore is also best applied to a Deathstar, as it lacks some of the boostable aura abilities that Light, for example, can bring to the table.

As with some of the other lores, Life is great in the right circumstances/army build but not necessarily in others. People love Shadow (and Light) because they are more versatile.

Lord Inquisitor
02-08-2012, 16:33
:wtf:

Okay my brain just melted.

Phazael, I usually agree with you 100%, but here I just don't agree. Death is a useful Lore beyond Purple Sun! Soulblight is one of the most powerful spells in the game (much more powerful than Purple Sun, IMO). Doom and Darkness is very versatile. The snipes are really dangerous if someone really focusses on important elements, particularly with mobile casters. And Ogres aren't the only army threatened by Psun.

Life the worst Lore? I'm not going to reiterate what I've said already but for many armies (Lizards, Brets) it fits perfectly without any army building and for everyone else it's a utilitarian Lore. Ignoring miscasts and giving units +4T are useful for everyone! Plus it has the best Lore attribute bar none. And Dwellers is the most dangerous Kill spell in the game too, picking out characters, particularly wizards and testing on an attribute most units are a 3 or 4 on.

And again... I can buy "I think Shadow or Light are better than Life or Death" but you're saying it's the worst Lore. What? Worse than Beasts or Fire? Can you imagine how utterly unbeatable Ogres would be i they had Life? Instead of +1T, that's +2T with double the range, same casting value! That's without throne up too. I'd rather have dwellers than the Maw! Regen on a 8+? Attribute that doesn't kill you and can regain a wound to any model within 12"? Resistance to miscasts?

PS - I agree with you on heavens though. You need to really try running heavens to understand it as it's pretty subtle.

Phazael
02-08-2012, 16:35
Agree totally. My personal pecking order is, in order of usefulness:
Shadow, Heavens, Light, Fire, Metal, Beasts, Death, then Life.

I rate by the ability of a L2 to roll anything off the lore and still be functionally effective on every turn of the game. Death and Life have the biggest hurdles to achieve that.

Lord Dan
02-08-2012, 16:36
...so is your list different when using a Lv.4 instead of a Lv.2?

Andy p
02-08-2012, 16:37
;6354344']Heavens rerolling 1's is so nasty is you combine it with 2 hellblasters and 2 engis (you can cast the spell in a 12" bubble). It's also great on cannons who can then reroll the dreadful 1's on wounding. Rerolling 1's on 1+ cav? absolutely!

Comet is THE underrated mass destruction spell in the game. It's so incredibly effective against everything that tries to hide in the corner (dwarfs, empire, chaos dwarfs etc). It can literally wipe out half of the enemy army. The only sucky spell is the windblast which is just plain bad (but that's the spell you exchange for the signaturespell which IS pretty good (especially in combination with all the other buffs and debuffs (don't forget the 5++ a warrior priest can cast)))

I once had -1 to hit and reroll 6's on the enemy unit, rerolling 1's and 5++ on my unit of knights... he did absolutely nothing to me.

Yeah I agree completely. The range on heavens is so underestimated. Ive had great times using it with my ogres....the best being a storm of magic game where I just sat in the corner and cast spell after spell.

Phazael
02-08-2012, 16:55
:wtf:

Okay my brain just melted.

Phazael, I usually agree with you 100%, but here I just don't agree. Death is a useful Lore beyond Purple Sun! Soulblight is one of the most powerful spells in the game (much more powerful than Purple Sun, IMO). Doom and Darkness is very versatile. The snipes are really dangerous if someone really focusses on important elements, particularly with mobile casters. And Ogres aren't the only army threatened by Psun.

Life the worst Lore? I'm not going to reiterate what I've said already but for many armies (Lizards, Brets) it fits perfectly without any army building and for everyone else it's a utilitarian Lore. Ignoring miscasts and giving units +4T are useful for everyone! Plus it has the best Lore attribute bar none. And Dwellers is the most dangerous Kill spell in the game too, picking out characters, particularly wizards and testing on an attribute most units are a 3 or 4 on.

Soul Blight is the one spell a person needs to stop once they get stuck in. You can quite literally ignore the entire rest of their magic phase once this happens. Hell, some armies can even totally ignore Soul Blight. Doom and Darkness is good.... if you win combat. Very situational and matchup dependant. And Ogres are the only _good_ army threatened by PSun. Lizards tend to pack the unstoppable light slaan (or the life guy who is going to cup dwellers you, anyhow). Sniping is very short ranged and luck dependant. The lore has almost as many what ifs as life. The only thing making it better is that you do not have to construct your own army with its use in mind.

Life _IS_ the worst lore (unless you are a Steg spamming Lizardmen player) in the game. Dwellers is incredibly hard to get off, especially with the boosted range, and (unlike PSun) cannot be cast on units engaged in close combat. Its also pretty worthless against the harder hitting units in the game. Its only reviled because it has a good shot of sniping a wizard out of a unit if the opponent was foolish enough to leave said wizard in range. Final Transmutation is actually a superior spell that does much the same thing. Flesh to Stone is the one redeemable spell in the entire lore, but as you already pointed out, it basically needs Throne up to be worthwhile and even then all it is good for is repelling damage, which does not nessecarily break steadfast units or even win you the combat in the first place. As someone who did really well with Bretts last tournament season, I can tell you from personal experience that Heavens is a vastly superior lore. When you see Life run, its generally some less experienced general abusing the lore attribute on Stegs or Steam Tanks and those guys never win the tournaments they go to. Its a gimmick lore that requires a perfect spell roll and lots of dice to work.

I can understand you not agreeing with me and you are a very shrewd player and tactician, but my personal GT experience (and discussions with top tier GT players) has led me to the above conclusions. If you look at my results lately, I am not exactly doing too shabby with Lore of Heavens. I stay away from Shadow to help with soft scores and because everyone knows how it works, but I agree its easily the strongest lore in the game (only Dark from the DE book rivals it).

Phazael
02-08-2012, 16:59
Quote: ...so is your list different when using a Lv.4 instead of a Lv.2?

Not really, because I don't base my magic strategy around hoping to 6 dice the kill spell. Reliably casting 3-4 spells a turn and forcing the opponent to let 1-2 through and tipping the game in my favor are where its at for me. Even with Bretts I run Heavens on a L4 in the back with the peasants, since I do not have to risk her blowing up the knights and it has the reach. Honestly, the only lore I am less likely to use based on the caster level are Beasts (terrible on a L4) and Metal (weak on a L2 unless they are a Loremaster or there are two of them to increase the odds of getting Trans of Lead/Enchanted Blades).

Jericho
02-08-2012, 17:05
+2T with Flesh to Stone and no Throne is still a massive swing... people go nuts over Wildform and it's only +1S +1T... but generally I do agree that playing defensively and building your army around Life isn't necessarily the best way to go in competitive play. You win tournaments by winning games, which is more than just working non-stop to keep your troops alive. At some point you have to wipe enemy units off the board.

Lord Dan
02-08-2012, 17:09
You win tournaments by winning games, which is more than just working non-stop to keep your troops alive. At some point you have to wipe enemy units off the board.


For some armies the units themselves already do the damage necessary to win games, it's just keeping them alive that matters most (High Elves are a great example).

Lord Inquisitor
02-08-2012, 17:11
Some Lores are very different depending on whether you're talking level 4 or level 2 IMO. I find heavens a great Lore for a Level 2, but I typically have better Lores to choose for my Level 4. Life isn't good on a level 2 at all, I agree, you need the synergy of the spells on a Level 4. Death is pretty good on a low caster, whereas apart from miasma-spam, Shadow is just too hard for a level 2 to cast. I used to run a level 2 of shadow on my Tzeentch Loremaster and had to give up - he just couldn't get the spells I wanted off. I switched to Death and never looked back, a flying L8 caster of Death is very solid.

Phazael
02-08-2012, 17:16
High Elves are indeed one of the main armies that bennefit the most from having Lore of Life, but taking it for Flesh to Stone means hoping you roll it or taking Seer Council. Either way, you need a second wizard in your army, either to increase odds of getting the spell or to carry a scroll. And Great Weapon troops (or Bloodletters) will still kill you by the bucketload without Throne up. Miasma and Occums are infinately better, as is just not getting hit in the first place (eg Ice Shard or Phas + Speed of Light). Your wizard also needs to be closer to the line when running life, which is not a desirable thing for HE.

Phazael
02-08-2012, 17:26
Stuff

Largely agree with this, but Miasma can win a game on its own merrits and aside from Pendulum every other spell in that lore is a back breaker and concievably castable by a L2. The problems I had with Death were the range and that people who know how to deploy can render the Snipe spells a non factor. Its also really easy to shut down once you get stuck in, even when used by a Loremaster. Doom and Darkness can be ignored by an army with a good LD bubble (and all the top tier armies are rerollable 9, at the minimum), which basically leaves Soulblight.

I use Heavens extensively, because the default is universally good and the worst spell in the entire lore (Wind Blast) is still good for dorking up the enemy battle line (or recovering from a failed charge). Plus a L2 can still reliably rip off 3 spells a turn in an average magic phase, even if one of them is Comet. Metal is actually vastly underestimated, too, but it has a weak late game default spell. But with more Ogre and Empire players popping up, I want to give Metal more experimentation, if only to help soften my Daemon list up some more. If you go to the Alamo, you will likely see me run it there. I am sticking with Heavens at Blobs Park, though.

Lord Inquisitor
02-08-2012, 18:11
Soul Blight is the one spell a person needs to stop once they get stuck in. You can quite literally ignore the entire rest of their magic phase once this happens. Hell, some armies can even totally ignore Soul Blight. Doom and Darkness is good.... if you win combat. Very situational and matchup dependant. And Ogres are the only _good_ army threatened by PSun. Lizards tend to pack the unstoppable light slaan (or the life guy who is going to cup dwellers you, anyhow). Sniping is very short ranged and luck dependant. The lore has almost as many what ifs as life. The only thing making it better is that you do not have to construct your own army with its use in mind.
Doom and Darkness has many uses. Making enemies more likely to fail fear, making reforms and marches harder, making enemies flee from panic. I've had all these things used against me and sometimes they win games. Plenty of armies fear the sun of purple - Lizards, Daemons (if they're heavy on the Tzeentch or Nurgle), Empire, Dwarfs, Ogres, Beastmen, VC, TK, Brets etc. Which of these you consider "good" may be another matter, but few armies can ignore a Psun with impunity, really Elves, Warriors and Skaven.

Yes, I agree that relying on Death usually requires building your list in that direction unless you have access to flying loremasters like daemons. But it is quite strong in the right build.


Life _IS_ the worst lore (unless you are a Steg spamming Lizardmen player) in the game. Dwellers is incredibly hard to get off, especially with the boosted range, and (unlike PSun) cannot be cast on units engaged in close combat. Its also pretty worthless against the harder hitting units in the game. Its only reviled because it has a good shot of sniping a wizard out of a unit if the opponent was foolish enough to leave said wizard in range. Final Transmutation is actually a superior spell that does much the same thing. Flesh to Stone is the one redeemable spell in the entire lore, but as you already pointed out, it basically needs Throne up to be worthwhile and even then all it is good for is repelling damage, which does not nessecarily break steadfast units or even win you the combat in the first place. As someone who did really well with Bretts last tournament season, I can tell you from personal experience that Heavens is a vastly superior lore. When you see Life run, its generally some less experienced general abusing the lore attribute on Stegs or Steam Tanks and those guys never win the tournaments they go to. Its a gimmick lore that requires a perfect spell roll and lots of dice to work.
I don't think Flesh need Throne to be effective. +2 is often as good as +4. In comparison to the ogre spell, it gives +2 instead of +1, double the range, better attribute and I still consider the Ogre spell pretty good even unboosted. Dwellers' casting value isn't so high as to be hard to achieve with 6 dice even boosted, particularly since Throne mitigates the risk of miscast.

Also, as I mentioned, Life + Shadow is a match made in hell. Horrific. I've seen Life/Shadow slaan builds dominate tournaments and I've been having some fun running a Life/Shadow empire build. I see life often used for any army with (A) casters in units and (B) high-strength, low toughness units. Brets and Lizards because of (A), HE and Empire because of (B).




I can understand you not agreeing with me and you are a very shrewd player and tactician, but my personal GT experience (and discussions with top tier GT players) has led me to the above conclusions. If you look at my results lately, I am not exactly doing too shabby with Lore of Heavens. I stay away from Shadow to help with soft scores and because everyone knows how it works, but I agree its easily the strongest lore in the game (only Dark from the DE book rivals it).
I will bow to your superior knowledge of what happens at tournaments, I know you attend more big tournaments than I do although it's possible there's a metagame difference between our areas. I agree that Heavens is a hidden gem (at least for armies without easy access to re-rolls through hatred, ASF, etc). I also agree that Life is probably not the best Lore, but I just can't believe you really think it is objectively the worst. The four main Lores used are Light, Shadow, Life, Death, surely?

Hinge01
02-08-2012, 18:12
Well since I am building an Empire list with Death and Metal wizards, looks like I will sneak another one by your comp committee Phazael :D I am just sorry I cannot make it down this year to defend my SoCal Slaughter crown.

I am going to agree with Phazael on Life. If you build a list tailored for it and can generate extra PD/spells, then it can be awesome. The two suggestions (slann and HE) can do this. Otherwise it is a pretty poor lore in my book. And yes, Phazael, this is an area I disagree with the majority of my club on.

I happen to think Death is a damn good lore. I tend to put it on an L2, so it is not a big investment. I can put pressure on opponents with Spirit Leach so I can get other spells off. I love it when I get Soulblight as well but am happy with the others (accept for the fear spell)

My favorite lore right now is Metal (followed by Heavens). It is very underrated, has some excellent buffs/hexes, a scary MM for highly armored targets and a good nuke spell.

Hinge

Urgat
02-08-2012, 20:31
I read that topic, and everybody's claiming that this or that or that is the best spell or the best lore. All the lores and, certainly, most spells have been named already... so in fact, everything is good?
Yay for BRB lores! My little Waaagh! urinates on all your shoes! :p

Hashut-Up!
03-08-2012, 00:32
I read that topic, and everybody's claiming that this or that or that is the best spell or the best lore. All the lores and, certainly, most spells have been named already... so in fact, everything is good?
Yay for BRB lores! My little Waaagh! urinates on all your shoes! :p

And any Lore of Nehekhara caster wishes he was one of the BRB casting cool kids....:cries:

Lord Dan
03-08-2012, 01:58
Aside from your crummy #6 spell, I actually really like the Lore of Nehekara.

NitrosOkay
03-08-2012, 04:12
Nehekhara is alright but then you look at something like the Lore of the Vampires.

Lord Inquisitor
03-08-2012, 04:14
The crummy number 6 spell is as powerful if not more so than purple sun against most armies' core infantry. I'd take it any day over the ogres' crummy number 6 spell.

Lord Dan
03-08-2012, 04:35
Well, if we're comparing crummy number 6 spells...

Hashut-Up!
03-08-2012, 04:45
Yeah, it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be, but it is still one of the weaker lores in all of WHFB if not the weakest (another interesting poll perhaps?). Skullstorm would be much better if it didn't have a chance to backfire. It doesn't make sense why it does that at all, and makes it feel like an O&G spell without the destructive power that comes with such risks like Foot of Gork. I have to admit I've never once cast it in 20 or so games with my tomb kings because the 5+ ward spell and Incantation of Smiting are usually so much better at any given time due to the nature of the army and it's raising mechanic.

Smiting is one of my favourite spells in the game, but still pales in overall effectiveness if matched up against the similar Birona's time warp spell. The extra range of the spell is handy, as is the additional ranged shots, but the doubled movement is so incredibly useful especially in an army that can't march. It just feels like there is a comparable spell from lores in the BRB (albeit not in the same Lore, which is an upside of sorts) for almost every spell in the Lore of Nehekara that does those jobs better and sometimes for a cheaper casting cost to boot.

NitrosOkay
03-08-2012, 05:08
Well the thing about army book lores is that they're designed with that specific army's balance in mind unlike rulebook lores.

That's why Lore of the Great Maw isn't ridiculously overpowered, Ogres are good enough already!

Nehekhara could stand to be a touch better than it is, but not much.

Phazael
03-08-2012, 07:20
Naw, Nekharia is easily the worst book lore in the modern era of codecii. I mean, Cruddace made their version of Soulblight a ton harder to cast for the exact same effect. Its so bad, that I really do not even bother to dispell anything other than the Casket or IwishIwasasgoodassoulblight. Its really sad, because they have more ways to get more power dice than any other army in the newer books, but they get shafted with this amazingly bad lore. Of course any time they feel bad about it they can take solace in the fact that they could be stuck with Lore of Athel Loren or Lore of the Wild.

Now, I know I am about to get flamed for this, but I feel the Ogre lore is pretty terrible, too, because nearly every spell in it exists in more efficient form in another lore, most even in core main rulebook lores. This is an issue it shares with Nekharia, along with a kind of lackluster signiure spell. At least the lore attribute on the Ogre lore does something descent (better than the actual spells themselves in most cases) and the buy out to use a better lore is a lot cheaper than what the Tomb Kings get shafted with.

Little Waagh is actually my personal favorite out of the 8th edition book lores. Lore of the Wild is the weakest of all the lores in the game, main rulebook or otherwise. Dark Lore is probably the second best lore in the game, but it gets overshadowed by Shadow in the DE army.

Sh4d0w
03-08-2012, 11:27
Fire the weakest? This is foolishness at its grandest height. I found the trick to make flame cage dreaded by all who cant afford to have a 2+ ward from spell damage. It has only been made stronger and stronger.
Here is how fire is not even close to the weakest spells.
1 Not having to roll to wound. Flaming sword on a cannon or anything st6 or greater. That's just mean.
2 Fireball is stupid easy to cast and has a range of the board. 2d6 on a 10 at range 36"? Yes please.
3 Piercing bolts on rat ranks? Thats pretty damn handy.
4 Flame cage trick, my greatest trick of them all made famous. Fight a block with a character in it issue a challenge, as long as there character is not base to base with yours he must move and flame trick triggers. It has been made real by two supporting FAQ's and at least 2 Indy Gt's support the ruling. Not only that some tourney scene has said that now if you kill the unit champ it triggers. The unit champ version of this trick is NOT my doing I take no credit for that one.
So enough with this madness of fire the weakest of them all.

Dude that is just disgusting. Don't get me wrong you're a genius for thinking of it but surely you can't argue that's what GW intended?

Just on another note my list goes:

1.Shadow
2.Death- i know strange choice but you've got 3 character assassination spells, an extremely good debuff, a LD debuff and ogre killing vortex. Also they are all relatively low casting and it's the best lore attribute in the game IMO.
3.Life but only really if you are putting alot of points into the wizard, e.g. slann to get throne of vines off and still have dice for the other spells.
4.Light- Good buffs and debuffs
5.Fire- Simply because of flame cage (literally shuts down big units).
6.Beasts- Best basic spell IMO and potentially good others.
7.I really can't split heavens or metal tbh.

Lord Inquisitor
03-08-2012, 13:59
1 Not having to roll to wound. Flaming sword on a cannon or anything st6 or greater. That's just mean.
Cute, but really anything you're wounding on 2+s is probably not something you need help with. It's not a bad spell though, not terribly cheap but magical attacks and flaming attacks are potentially useful too.

2 Fireball is stupid easy to cast and has a range of the board. 2d6 on a 10 at range 36"? Yes please.
That's an average 7 hits of S4 for a 10+ casting value? Okay for killing light chaff - that's about it. Nothing wrong with the spell, but I'm not suddenly crazy about Fire.

3 Piercing bolts on rat ranks? Thats pretty damn handy.
...And pretty damn useless on anything else.

4 Flame cage trick, my greatest trick of them all made famous. Fight a block with a character in it issue a challenge, as long as there character is not base to base with yours he must move and flame trick triggers. It has been made real by two supporting FAQ's and at least 2 Indy Gt's support the ruling. Not only that some tourney scene has said that now if you kill the unit champ it triggers. The unit champ version of this trick is NOT my doing I take no credit for that one.
*Sigh* This "trick" requires the assumption that switching places due to a challenge constitutes movement, or that stepping up constitutes movement. I do not see it played that you need to take dangerous terrain tests for stepping up, for example in a venom thicket. I've never seen it suggested! At the very least it is a dubious and probably not intended. If that's the best case you can make for Fire...

Not that I don't think Flame Cage is an excellent spell, easily the best in Lore of Fire.

Lord Inquisitor
03-08-2012, 14:20
Well the thing about army book lores is that they're designed with that specific army's balance in mind unlike rulebook lores.

That's why Lore of the Great Maw isn't ridiculously overpowered, Ogres are good enough already!
This seems unlikely. They have access to other rulebook lores after all. Despite the butcher tax, if the Great Maw were deliberately underpowered, ogres would switch to another primary Lore. Plus Tomb Kings don't have an overpowered Lore either yet they're utterly reliant on magic.

A much more likely explanation is that the designers realised that perhaps they'd gone a little overboard with certain Lores in the rulebook and decided to tone it back a little after the rulebook was released. Suddenly no "initiative test or die outright" spells, much more reasonable casting values and ranges. While I still look at Shadow or Life with envious eyes, the Maw lore is solid and fairly costed, or I wouldn't use it.


Naw, Nekharia is easily the worst book lore in the modern era of codecii.
Codexes or codecies... but they're army books man, this isn't 40K! :p


I mean, Cruddace made their version of Soulblight a ton harder to cast for the exact same effect. Its so bad, that I really do not even bother to dispell anything other than the Casket or IwishIwasasgoodassoulblight.
Uh, their version of Soulblight can outright win games in the boosted value. -3S and -3T on your main unit means they're just dead. It's a gamble - sucks if you roll a 1 and it doesn't do anything more than the unboosted version. A 5+ ward across the whole army isn't bad, not quite the Ogres' trollguts but can't be negated by flame. The Lore attribute is solid and can sometimes really catch opponents off guard. It's not amazing, sure, but it's not Lore of the Wild either.


Its really sad, because they have more ways to get more power dice than any other army in the newer books, but they get shafted with this amazingly bad lore. Of course any time they feel bad about it they can take solace in the fact that they could be stuck with Lore of Athel Loren or Lore of the Wild.
Or console themselves with Death or Light. ;)


Now, I know I am about to get flamed for this, but I feel the Ogre lore is pretty terrible, too, because nearly every spell in it exists in more efficient form in another lore, most even in core main rulebook lores.
Yep, I agree. Pretty much every spell and attribute is found fairly equivalently for cheaper or better in another Lore. The only thing that sets the Ogre spells apart are the bubble effects.

NitrosOkay
03-08-2012, 16:46
This seems unlikely. They have access to other rulebook lores after all. Despite the butcher tax, if the Great Maw were deliberately underpowered, ogres would switch to another primary Lore. Plus Tomb Kings don't have an overpowered Lore either yet they're utterly reliant on magic.

A much more likely explanation is that the designers realised that perhaps they'd gone a little overboard with certain Lores in the rulebook and decided to tone it back a little after the rulebook was released. Suddenly no "initiative test or die outright" spells, much more reasonable casting values and ranges. While I still look at Shadow or Life with envious eyes, the Maw lore is solid and fairly costed, or I wouldn't use it.

In most of the new books you are forced to take your army book lore on at least one Wizard, so you can't switch to a rulebook lore for everyone. Ogres only get what, Heavens, Beasts or Death anyway? No Shadow or Light to be extra overpowered.

Lord Inquisitor
03-08-2012, 17:01
Right, but while Ogres would jump all over Life or Light, the new army Lores are in line and not worse than the "low tier" rulebook Lores. They just didn't repeat the mistakes of the top Lores, no instant death test spells, no +4 to strength or toughness.

NitrosOkay
03-08-2012, 17:04
the new army Lores are in line

I don't know Lore of the Vampires is pretty damn strong :)

Sheena Easton
03-08-2012, 20:56
I think Life - most people seem to be unable to use it if the twin crutches of Throne and Dwellers get kicked away.

Phazael
04-08-2012, 01:43
Vamps is deffinately a good lore, likely on par with heavens. I think its on par with Little Wagh, now that I think about the games where I have faced off against it. Little Wagh is just a lot more subtle and I have been able to hose people's normal magic phase tactics with the lore attribute.

Askari
04-08-2012, 10:07
I think the Lore of the Vampires is a special case. It does work very well with the Vampire Counts army, but isn't as spectacular as some of the BRB Lores. In particular, it doesn't manage to damage the enemy very well, but Invocation, Vanhel's and to a lesser extent Hellish Vigour are some of the best support spells in the game.

panic_puppet
04-08-2012, 11:37
There are some great lores, and the rest are situational rather than bad. Beasts is poor in general, but Bretonnia and Beastmen love it - beasts cos its better than their army book lore, and all-cav Bret armies can make good use. Wildformed peasants aren't shabby either. You need the right caster/army combo to make use of Life, but when its good its -very- good. Shadow, Light, and Death are all just generally solid. Heavens has some good spells and some howlers, but its understated and can work quite well (comet against gunlines, iceshard is really powerful). For me its a toss-up between Metal and Fire, and I'm going to have to go with Metal for one reason alone: in all my games of Fantasy (only been playing since midway through 7th, mind, but still), I have never faced lore of metal. Its just too situational, and the armies that can get it all have access to better choices. Fire is good to toss on a lv1 or lv2 for extra damage, but Metal just won't cut it.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-08-2012, 12:21
[COLOR="#EE82EE"]That's an average 7 hits of S4 for a 10+ casting value? Okay for killing light chaff - that's about it. Nothing wrong with the spell, but I'm not suddenly crazy about Fire.

But as far as magic missiles go it is the best spell. Banishment is close but shorter-ranged and not as versatile with three possible levels.

The Bolter is quite okay against almost all big units. You can deploy a Fire wizard on a flank against hordes but there's more than just Slaves in units of 50+ these days.



*Sigh* This "trick" requires the assumption that switching places due to a challenge constitutes movement, or that stepping up constitutes movement. I do not see it played that you need to take dangerous terrain tests for stepping up, for example in a venom thicket. I've never seen it suggested! At the very least it is a dubious and probably not intended. If that's the best case you can make for Fire...


Of course you don't take a dangerous terrain test for any movement that is not specified in the list (and I don't think stepping up is movement either).

Lord Inquisitor
06-08-2012, 14:13
Urgh, just the other day I had a lore of light wizard take out my daemon army almost single-handedly using just banishment and the other light missile.

I don't think you can use the bolts of burning like a cannon and treat files as ranks if you are in the flank. Flame head yes, bolts no.

Note I specifically gave venom thicket as the example, which triggers DT on any movement not just march/charge/flee/pursue.

Phazael
06-08-2012, 14:33
Fireball at the second level is stupid easy to get off and very efficient. But really, the best spells in Fire are Flame Cage and Sword of Ruin. Both are game turners, when used right. Reason I personally prefer Fire to Death is that it is more than a one spell wonder once you close in, but if I were going to play more gunline and/or point denial go for the minor win, death would likely be better.

Gradek
06-08-2012, 19:00
The comparative question though, is are we comparing the lores in reference to a level 1 or a level 4 (or a loremaster)? Because, in terms of level 1's, I would say beasts actually scores pretty well.

panic_puppet
06-08-2012, 19:22
Totally agree. I have no problems taking beasts in my bretonnians on a level 1 or 2, as the sig spell is good, and you're likely to get another useful spell. On a level 3 or 4, I'll probably take heavens (tried life. Effective but boring.)

Petey
06-08-2012, 21:16
Here's an odd question, who the Heck voted for Death as the weakest Lore, and why?

Why
07-08-2012, 02:55
I guess they thought it was a very situational lore.
Which is true, against a high initiative army with no characters it has one usefull spell;)

NitrosOkay
07-08-2012, 03:06
I guess they thought it was a very situational lore.
Which is true, against a high initiative army with no characters it has one usefull spell;)

How many armies with no characters do you generally see?

I can't name one. Maybe Lizardmen with just their Slann hiding in the back? But they're initiative 1.

Why
07-08-2012, 04:28
It was a joke, the lore of death is a awesome lore.

Spiney Norman
07-08-2012, 07:02
It was a joke, the lore of death is a awesome lore.

Death is ok, it's fairly middle of the roadish, but I certainly wouldn't say it was the weakest. The sniper spells are a bit short range to be much use early on and as devastating as PSX is there is a lot that can go wrong with it (misfiring and raping your own army, failing to reach the target and coming back to bite you next turn etc. it essentially behaves like an enormous fanatic that kills everything in its path. Destructive in the right situation, yes, but pretty risky for a low Int army to fiddle around with.

PSX is the only spell that really makes death look good, and I'd rather have a good all round lore with some good augments, the major failing of death is that it has none.

Lemonbrick
07-08-2012, 08:46
I voted Beasts, while the sig spells is amazing and Transformation Ace their are some filler spells that mean that both of those will be direct targets of dispels leaving you with pretty much junk to follow. Still like all lores Beasts has more mileage with some armies such as beasts where the lore attribute is used much more.