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Sexiest_hero
09-08-2012, 21:07
They seem to be the big failures/losers. In fact I've never herd of a actual victory for them against anyone ever. I don't think they have any books centered on them, and the only art you see is one getting his face blasted off by a loyalist marine. The Word bearers do "chaos in general" better, and the other non cult legions have interesting quirks. Why other with them?

MarshalFaust
09-08-2012, 21:13
Well they technically won / accomplished all of their goals in the siege of cadia/13th black crusade. granted that was more of a concerted effort but they and abbadon were the leaders.

narrativium
09-08-2012, 21:20
Depends on your definition of success. The enemies of the Imperium still exist - does that make the Imperium a big failure/loser?

The Black Legion's fortunes rise and fall. They've amassed armies for no fewer than thirteen Black Crusades, each bigger than the last. The goals vary - the goal of the first was to win the daemon sword Abaddon now wields; the spoils of the twelfth include several of the Blackstone Fortresses. They've annihilated whole worlds (see: Planet Killer, featured in the novel Execution Hour).

They haven't had any books centred on them ytet; Aaron Dembski-Bowden's made several waves to start something on them, and there's a short story in Heroes of the Space Marines which doesn't end too badly for them. I suspect the main reason for their lack of success has simply been emphasis on the Imperials. That emphasis seems to be shifting, I suspect because the Horus Heresy series has made them a lot more accessible.

Lord Damocles
09-08-2012, 21:30
There was that time they trashed El'Phanor, and got that gnarly daemon sword, or the time they captured those alien super weapons and blew up a load of planets and stars and stuff...

Or all those times they just appear and wreck up the place even if they don't 'win' (taking out a whole Company of Imperial Fists, Cripling the Blood Ravens, destroying Macharia, setting fire to Cadia for the hell of it etc.)

Stormtrooper Clark
09-08-2012, 21:36
The Imperial Guard are the buttmonkeys in pretty much any piece of writing they're not the protagonists of as well. It's just that they lack the sugar coated coverage Ultramarines, loyalists in general and more "fan favourite" groups like the Word Bearers and Death Guard scoop up. It's not that they're "losers" but they're usually put up as Generic Antagonist #5632 and given his 'bias' writing surrounding the race in the spotlight is you tend to get a lot of losses and not many wins even if the lore says otherwise.

KingDeath
09-08-2012, 21:45
You play the Black Legion because they have the potential to be amongst the best looking Legions of all.
Sure, you could just slab some black paint on them but if you realy take your time then they will look awesome.

Draconis
09-08-2012, 21:51
Along with the looks, you have some rich fluff and you have no restrictions about what faction of chaos god you can take. I'm changing my DG army over to BL just so I can literally roll for a random squad of daemons and other stuff. Like I'll take Daemons as allies, then allocate 200 points to a squad of the lesser daemons and maybe 200 points for say a DP of random faction then roll to see which ones I get before game.

Scammel
09-08-2012, 22:55
Asides from their major successes in almost every campaign they've ever taken part in? Just because every Black Crusade doesn't end with them toasting each other over the Emperor's corpse doesn't mean they're failures, or else that label applies to everyone in the 40k universe. Didn't slay the central Tyranid super-organism?. Fail. Didn't wipe out the entire Ork race? Fail.

Xerkics
09-08-2012, 23:11
Well black Legion are like the CSM Mafia they got their fingers in all the pies they have the favour of all the gods they got all the demons they want to summon all the dark mechanicum toys etc etc you name it. They are the glory boys as the guards would call them. Like Imagine if Abaddon was snoop Dawg:-p

Sexiest_hero
09-08-2012, 23:13
It seems every story has them, "In full rout back into the eye of terror."

TheDungen
09-08-2012, 23:14
read Horus Rising and then ask the question again.

But aside from that, Let me point your way to a few victories, First of Istavaan, how man billions died in the initial strike? and then they planned the destruction of three entire space marine legions.

Following that the blased a bloody path all the way to terra and only the death of Horus really saved the loyalists. then Abbaddon took over and he's clearly no Horus (Horus was weak? yeah right) but he have had his moments, planets ended suns blown up oh and the 13th crusade was a victory he burned Cadia to cinders with blackstone fortresses and then the imperium drove him of and had to rebuild(Disorder won at Cadia but Order won the majority of the zones and mostly controlled space). But he proved his point that he can break the Cadian gate if he attack head on.

Beppo1234
09-08-2012, 23:14
does chaos ever succeed in general? They're still pretty much bottled up in the EOT or the MS.

Bonzai
09-08-2012, 23:48
Fluff Reasons: You want to play the most active Chaos organization. Sure, some legions still exist as such, kind of. Some still have primarchs. But what exactly are they accomplishing? Yeah, Abby has bastardized his legion into a patchwork conglomeration, but it made him the largest single astartes fighting force since the Heresey. Yeah he has set backs, but at least he has some sort of plan and organization beyond the isolated warband level.

Game Reasons: You get to cherry pick from everything. Abby himself is also a beast.

PANZERBUNNY
10-08-2012, 00:53
does chaos ever succeed in general? They're still pretty much bottled up in the EOT or the MS.

Pretty sure the current situation is fairly ideal as they are simply being contained and there is no real way to know the power that Chaos can muster until they fly out and lay siege to entire sectors.

For the size of chaos forces, challenging the will and might of a mighty Galactic empire....I think they do pretty damn good.

Draconis
10-08-2012, 00:59
Questions. 1, where can i get the fluff on the 13 crusades. and 2, I dont believe the part about having the favor of the gods. If you read your codexes, it states that when a worshipper dies, they go to whatever god they worshipped unless they are undivided, then the gods fight over them. However, if the person who died changed his worship in accordance to whoever had the biggest benefit at the time, they become kathartes, which the codex will tell you that is a punishment for being undecisive. Now the codex tells you that the Black Legion are notorious for this. They change their favorite gods all the time depending on whichever gives the best benefit at the time.

Kevlar
10-08-2012, 01:04
1. cool paint scheme
2. ???
3. profit

PANZERBUNNY
10-08-2012, 04:14
Questions. 1, where can i get the fluff on the 13 crusades. and 2, I dont believe the part about having the favor of the gods. If you read your codexes, it states that when a worshipper dies, they go to whatever god they worshipped unless they are undivided, then the gods fight over them. However, if the person who died changed his worship in accordance to whoever had the biggest benefit at the time, they become kathartes, which the codex will tell you that is a punishment for being undecisive. Now the codex tells you that the Black Legion are notorious for this. They change their favorite gods all the time depending on whichever gives the best benefit at the time.

I'd imagine there is a special place under the thrown of Nurgle that all the gods agreed to send those converts. Deep in the drainage of the warp where Nurgle visits after a weekend of hard partying.

onidemon
10-08-2012, 04:40
I have to say:

1. The paint scheme
2. They're the ultramarines of Chaos - either you like that, or you don't.

Of course, you could also argue the 13th Black Crusade, to our perspective, either hasn't happened yet, or was cleanly and neatly forgotten at the end of the 41st millenium. Because, when we fought the global campaign in reality, Chaos won and Abaddon was triumphant. Cadia fell.

But... as with Armageddon, GW decided the story couldn't progress, tossed up a little "Well, Chaos won, but not really... so..." and has kept the focus on the "past" ever since: the Damocles Gulf, the Sabbat Worlds, The Gothic War, the Horus Heresy, anything but that very end of the timeline in the 6th edition rulebook, where the 13th Black Crusade happens, and then... Well, maybe someday we'll know, but for now, Black Legion triumphant on Cadia is the final point in the known 40k universe.

(Incidentally, if the Black Library books did add more to the 13th Crusade and I'm not aware of it, someone please tell me, I'd love to see a real ending to that war)

AlphariusOmegon20
10-08-2012, 07:10
What everyone here is forgetting is the Crusades are NOT a BL only show. Take a look at the Eye of Terror campaign book and you'll see what I mean. AL, Violators, etc... are all involved.

On their own, BL doesn't really do much.

xxRavenxx
10-08-2012, 09:00
What everyone here is forgetting is the Crusades are NOT a BL only show. Take a look at the Eye of Terror campaign book and you'll see what I mean. AL, Violators, etc... are all involved.

On their own, BL doesn't really do much.

When was the last time the eldar did much? :)

Or the snakebitez? Or badmoons? Or evil sunz? (I might be overstepping, but my memory is that the gothz are in the center of all big ork fluff?)

The dark eldar are self-proclaimed "nobodies" in that they're too small to fight the imperium.

The necrons are stuck milling round one sector.



I don't see the problem with the BL. They accomplish some stuff and they've attempted some decent crusades.

In fact... what have the word bearers ever done? :p

narrativium
10-08-2012, 12:32
It's also a matter of destructive potential. Picture a house fire and the fire brigade's response; picture a city on fire and picture the escalation of response. The Imperium seriously mobilises when there's a Black Crusade; their response is proportionate. But even when the fire's out, you can't look at the devastation across worlds and think 'we won this one'/'they lost this one'. The fighting's over, but the damage is done.

Scammel
10-08-2012, 12:33
1, where can i get the fluff on the 13 crusades

Liber Chaotica Khorne, I beleive.

Marshal_Loss
10-08-2012, 14:14
They look awesome, they're the most powerful with arguably the most glorious history and the warmaster comes from amongst their ranks. Not to mention the fact that people from all legions and warbands can join the Black Legion, adding a variety not seen in any other of the Chaos forces (except arguably Huron's troop I suppose).

It is unfortunate that as a side affect of being the posterchild for CSM, Games Workshop has them killed in droves at every opportunity...

AlphariusOmegon20
10-08-2012, 18:16
When was the last time the eldar did much? :)

Or the snakebitez? Or badmoons? Or evil sunz? (I might be overstepping, but my memory is that the gothz are in the center of all big ork fluff?)

Yeah, I think your memory is bad.

The Overfiend of Octarius, Blaktoof, IIRC, is a Blood Axe. So's Zagstruk and Snikrot.

The Bad Moon Warlord Nazdreg made Ghazghkull's second invasion of Armageddon possible, due to Orkimedes' invention of the Tellyporter ( He originally worked for Nazdreg) and by holding off the Dark Angels at Piscina IV, allowing Ghazghkull time to invade Armageddon. ( This may have been changed in the BL novel Purging of Kadillus Harbor. I have no idea, I haven't read it. My information comes from the old Storm of Vengeance campaign pack.)

Wazdakka is most certainly not a Goff, nor is Gazbag. Both are Evil Sunz Warlords, though actually Wazdakka is really a Big Mek/Warlord. Skargrim Ruknar's Burning Death Speed Freeks are especially notorious on Armageddon, having destroyed by themselves a Savlar Chem Dogs regiment at Hive Infernus . ( I'll grant, at this point Wazdakka is more of a freebooter than anything, but he's still an Evil Sun at the end of the day.)



So you see, it's not all a Goff show when it comes to Orks. There are other cases of Other clans doing major things.






The necrons are stuck milling round one sector.

Wait, what?

They may be in one "sector", but look at a map of the galaxy before you say that. They're spread all over hell and back, due to the SIZE of that "sector".

Nihilahk Dynasty - Gheden, near Forge World Ryza in Ultima Segmentum, close to the Segmentum Solar border.
Sautekh Dynasty - Mandragora, in the Eastern Fringe.
Altymhor Dynasty - Drazak, within the Ghoul Stars

Raven, Those 3 alone are nowhere NEAR each other.



In fact... what have the word bearers ever done? :p

You mean other than corrupt 8 other legions, including the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus (Black Legion), to Chaos? ;)

Lord Damocles
10-08-2012, 18:22
The necrons are stuck milling round one sector.Wait, what?
Yeah, what?

Even assuming 'sector' is supposed to read 'Segmentum', that's still ludicrously incorrect. Look at (for example), the 5th ed. BRB, pg.178 for an illustration of the level of wrongness.

Harbinger
10-08-2012, 20:21
They seem to be the big failures/losers. In fact I've never herd of a actual victory for them against anyone ever. I don't think they have any books centered on them, and the only art you see is one getting his face blasted off by a loyalist marine. The Word bearers do "chaos in general" better, and the other non cult legions have interesting quirks. Why other with them?

As far as victories, they are often leading the Legions in the greatest battles such as Istvaan III, Istvaan V, Dwell (defeated combined Iron Hands, White Scars, and Salamanders), Siege of Terra (yeah, it was an overall loss, but a giant nut-kick to the Imperium), Aurelian Crusade (from Dawn of War, yes, they loose, but they burn the Sector), Drathorian (BL pillages vital mining and promethium refining worlds), Vraks (BL warbands participated, and many of the forces were sanctioned or on loan from Abbadon despite not being Black Legion), 7th Black Crusade (Killing Blood Angels until the BL gets bored), Gothic War (BL acquired Blackstone Fortresses and burned multiple worlds), 13th Black Crusdae. The Black Legion does not have to conquer or hold territory for a victory, and as far as losing territory it is because they are such a huge blip on the Imperium's radar that everything is sent after the threat. Destroying outposts and resources are a victory if it leads to lasting damage such an the inability to resupply other worlds at war.

The Black Legion is not about overt worship of Chaos. While a number of them do, Chaos is more a tool to be used. They worship the Chaos Powers when it suits them, not out of long standing devotion. It is probably somewhere between Night Lords and Word Bearers.

Why bother with them? Awesome color scheme, kind of like the architypal black knight. Access to all Chaos units without violating background. If Archaon left WFB and joined 40k, he would kill Abbadon and lead the Black Legion.

smileyface
11-08-2012, 04:30
Because you like the colour scheme? Actually, that is a good reason. Getting bored with the colours after a unit or two is bad.

Fluff wise, they are consistently a threat to the imperium. Is that failure? Recall that the eye of terror is actually a disputed area of space (albeit psychically hostile space, but still), not a place the imperium doesn't dare to go. It's possible to head in there and kick the snot out of the people living there. The fact that the traitor legions hold it (despite their own internal warring) and sometimes have to retreat there is not "weakness", so much as "having this really big set of fortresses that we use sensibly". The BL in particular do give the impression of being the "lead" legion - the others cause trouble, but it's the BL who take the lead when inciting a war that might actually break the imperium. That doesn't seem like failure to me.


there's a short story in Heroes of the Space Marines....

I read that as "Herpes of...". Probably time to go to bed, if my eyes are that squiffy.

insectum7
11-08-2012, 08:15
They are the remnants of Horus's legion, and Abaddon was his right hand man.

Done.

xxRavenxx
11-08-2012, 08:44
The Bad Moon Warlord Nazdreg made Ghazghkull's second invasion of Armageddon possible... ...So you see, it's not all a Goff show when it comes to Orks. There are other cases of Other clans doing major things.

My point was that Ghazzy was involved in these things with other clans though. Much as the OP said Abaddon never does anything on his own.







Yeah, what?

Even assuming 'sector' is supposed to read 'Segmentum', that's still ludicrously incorrect. Look at (for example), the 5th ed. BRB, pg.178 for an illustration of the level of wrongness.

Sector is maybe the wrong word, but the necron fluff talks about them not having warp travel, and being confined to their old empire. This technically makes them less of a threat than orks, nids or chaos who can roll across the galaxy if needed.

Lord Damocles
11-08-2012, 09:12
Sector is maybe the wrong word, but the necron fluff talks about them not having warp travel, and being confined to their old empire. This technically makes them less of a threat than orks, nids or chaos who can roll across the galaxy if needed.
They're only not a galactic threat if we arbitrarily ignore Dolmen Gates, FTL realspace travel, and near-instantaneous teleportation/phase technology...

insectum7
11-08-2012, 09:19
Sector is maybe the wrong word, but the necron fluff talks about them not having warp travel, and being confined to their old empire. This technically makes them less of a threat than orks, nids or chaos who can roll across the galaxy if needed.

The old Necron empire was the galaxy. Or if you look at any of the galactic maps (there are several) of the locations of Necron activity, they're all over the place. Lack of Warp Travel does not confine them. It's not like Eldar (who also lack Warp travel the way the Imperium has it) are confined either.

Still Standing
11-08-2012, 12:04
The old Necron empire was the galaxy. Or if you look at any of the galactic maps (there are several) of the locations of Necron activity, they're all over the place. Lack of Warp Travel does not confine them. It's not like Eldar (who also lack Warp travel the way the Imperium has it) are confined either.

Actually the Eldar do possess Warp Travel capabilities, but they use it only for extremely short jumps, due to the risk of being eaten alive... If a ship full of glimmering sparks of human minds attracts Daemons in the warp, what the hell does an Eldar ship do?

totgeboren
11-08-2012, 14:04
There are some great blogs in the chaos logs of Black Legion warbands. For example, don't these dudes (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?312421-BasetheRuins-2nd-Ed-Black-Legion&p=6253856&viewfull=1#post6253856) look great?

The BL have got some noticeable strong points. That can be painted to look really striking on the battlefield (black and yellow tend to do that to the human eye), and my personal favourite is to play a bit on the 'Luna Wolves' side of their background. They look really good with some furs and such, it just works really well with their general look. You are also free to make your models as dedicated or undedicated as you wish. A retinue for your lord could have models with a mix of chaos affiliations, but with the unifying colour scheme, it looks really good and chaotic. If I didn't do WB, I think i would do the BL, especially with lots of furs.

They are also all about 'Chaos Space Marines'. They were/are arguably the best of all marines, loyalists or traitors, and their theme is just about marines. Not so much about CSM and daemons or CSM and cultists (like the Word Bearers), or CSM and specific tactical preferences (like the NL, IW or AL). They are just CSM who have fallen to the Dark Gods. You are free to use the entire CSM codex, and don't need to dilute your theme via allies, the CSM codex provides everything you need to play your faction. It's nice that they themselves are the centre of attention of their theme.

insectum7
11-08-2012, 17:58
Actually the Eldar do possess Warp Travel capabilities, but they use it only for extremely short jumps, due to the risk of being eaten alive... If a ship full of glimmering sparks of human minds attracts Daemons in the warp, what the hell does an Eldar ship do?

Yeah, that's more accurate. Poor choice of words on my part. They don't use Warp travel the way that the Imperium does. Point stands however, they still get around without it.

Devil-Tears
13-08-2012, 09:34
does chaos ever succeed in general? They're still pretty much bottled up in the EOT or the MS.

While Chaos Marines don't seem the succeed, the Chaos Gods have definitely achieved everything they wanted. After all, their existance depends on all the negative emotions caused by strife, so perpetual war is like an endless feast for them. They basically play the Loyalists against the Traitors, generating an eternal economy for which the Gods can constantly feed on. After all, if the Chaos marines DO succeed, that means that the Imperium, and thus a large amount of the emotional buffet, would be gone.

Marshal_Loss
13-08-2012, 14:05
The old Necron empire was the galaxy. Or if you look at any of the galactic maps (there are several) of the locations of Necron activity, they're all over the place. Lack of Warp Travel does not confine them. It's not like Eldar (who also lack Warp travel the way the Imperium has it) are confined either.

Without the Webway, the Necrons were not able to access travel great distances during the time of their empire - they used something (dolmen something? forget the name, it is in the ward codex) to hack into the webway to gain access.

jubilex
14-08-2012, 11:03
Why play the Black Legion?
Don't know, you hum it, I'll try to figure it out.

Abaraxas
14-08-2012, 13:37
Their Primarch led something called the "Horus Heresy" ...nuff said

Welfstar
14-08-2012, 14:56
Another aggravating thread by Sexest_hero...

There is no doubting that the Black Legion are one of the most iconic groups of badasses in the 40k universe.

Interesting quirks, eh? How about Blackstone Fortresses? The Planet Killer? Spearheading multiple Black Crusades (including the one that currently threatens to topple Cadia)?

The Black Legion blows up stars, blows up planets, and continually throws itself at the most formidable Fortress World in the Imperium.

Impressed yet?

Max_Killfactor
14-08-2012, 16:03
Abaddon.

Pretty easy to paint.

Malagor
14-08-2012, 16:20
I don't mind them, I'm just sick of seeing them.
Pretty much every chaos player in my area use the Black Legion.
I want to see a legion that isn't them.

Draconis
14-08-2012, 16:50
Man, Ive never seen one yet... funny how the different areas are so varied.

TheDungen
14-08-2012, 19:23
yeah me neither then again the only people i knew who played 40k was a UM player and an eldar player. oh and my brother used to play IG when we were kids.

Aryllon
14-08-2012, 21:18
Conversions.

Make anything you want, any chaos theme / god you want, they have access to it ALL. I mean jesus imagine how cool a conversion you could come up with to represent the warlord to lead all warlords??!

If like me you find their colour scheme as uninspiring as Tubular Bells, just paint however you like and 'count as'.

Their beauty (er, poor choice of word... except the slaaneshi BL ofc) is that literally anything goes :)
Could make an awesome all-female BL for example, with Eldar and SOB bits. Daemon princess via 54mm scale vampire countess or something. Let them ride Slaanesh steeds as counts-as bikers. Fem scourge bodies with cc weapons & craftworld fusion / melta counts as raptors. Daemonette headswaps. You get the gist.