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viv714r
09-08-2012, 21:57
Contrary to popular belief, power mauls aren't completey usless. Against Guardsmen,Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids it does it's job well. In the hands of a Space/Chaos Marine it destroys T3 characters. Sure it bonces of power and terminator armour but no-one uses boltguns against Land Raiders, so why use the maul against targets it's ill suited against.
Moral: Quit your collective whining and brain some T3 weaklings :evilgrin:.

Lord Damocles
09-08-2012, 22:01
They're also better than most alternatives against vehicles.

And Necrons.

Droma
09-08-2012, 22:07
The thing is power swords are almost equally effective at killing T3 targets and against your normal T3 troop model even regular marine attacks are pretty effective. Basically even regular tactical squads don't have much issues pounding guardsmen into paste so why bring a weapon that specializes in killing them? Marines have bolters so in general you're better off rapid firing and waiting for them to charge you so you can overwatch them and then beat them into a bloody pulp with better WS, S, T, and armour saves.

The only real choices are still between power swords and power fists unless you have access to lightning claws.

Lord Damocles
09-08-2012, 22:12
so why bring a weapon that specializes in killing them?
Instant death for T3 (for S4); better against anything which is mid-T, 4+Sv; better against vehicles and MCs.

Omegon
09-08-2012, 22:16
Droma you're well off the mark. You send in a power maul armed squad against an eldar/IG unit containing a Commander then you cause instant death. Against Necrons Warriors you wound on 2+. Against a farseer your AP3 power sword means jack and you need 3 wounds to put him down, with a maul you need 1.

Starchild
09-08-2012, 22:29
I will happily pit my maul-toting Chaplains against any character in the game, bellowing challenges at every opportunity... just because it's in character. 40k isn't all about statistics and winning at all costs.

In real war units have to make due with what they've got. The fictional example that comes to mind is the final skirmish in Saving Private Ryan, in which infantry sorely low on ammo attempt to halt an armoured column with makeshift explosives and sheer grit.

This is the same reason I use a Scorpion Exarch with chainsabres in my Eldar army. :cool:

Corvus Corone
09-08-2012, 22:34
I will happily pit my maul-toting Chaplains against any character in the game, bellowing challenges at every opportunity... just because it's in character. 40k isn't all about statistics and winning at all costs.

In real war units have to make due with what they've got. The fictional example that comes to mind is the final skirmish in Saving Private Ryan, in which infantry sorely low on ammo attempt to halt an armoured column with makeshift explosives and sheer grit.

This is the same reason I use a Scorpion Exarch with chainsabres in my Eldar army. :cool:

Post of the day.

OT: Use whatever you like, but I just like the idea of smacking stuff with an electro-bat. Eat that, necron scum!

Sexiest_hero
09-08-2012, 22:50
My chaos lord uses a powermaul because I don't feel like ripping him apart. It did suck when he got slowly beaten to death by a sm sargent with powersword.....

viv714r
10-08-2012, 00:09
I will happily pit my maul-toting Chaplains against any character in the game, bellowing challenges at every opportunity... just because it's in character. 40k isn't all about statistics and winning at all costs.

In real war units have to make due with what they've got. The fictional example that comes to mind is the final skirmish in Saving Private Ryan, in which infantry sorely low on ammo attempt to halt an armoured column with makeshift explosives and sheer grit.

This is the same reason I use a Scorpion Exarch with chainsabres in my Eldar army. :cool:

Agreed. My Interrogater-Chaplain cares not for the concern of petty 2+ or 3+ saves. Through faith, fervour and pure awesomesauce he triumphs (admitedley not all the time but it's always enjoyable). Thanks for the feedback, the power maul deserves better than it's getting, remember when in doubt, give'em a clout.

Kevlar
10-08-2012, 00:55
My chaos lord uses a powermaul because I don't feel like ripping him apart. It did suck when he got slowly beaten to death by a sm sargent with powersword.....



That doesn't sound right. You are hitting on 3's wounding on 2's with 5 attacks. He is hitting on 4's wounding on 4's with 3 attacks.

viv714r
10-08-2012, 01:27
That doesn't sound right. You are hitting on 3's wounding on 2's with 5 attacks. He is hitting on 4's wounding on 4's with 3 attacks.

If the lord is in power armour the sword ignores armour. Never rely on averages and stats the dice gods are fickle at best and crazy crap can happen sometimes.

wyvirn
10-08-2012, 02:11
It's not called Warsword 40,000 now, is it?

agurus1
10-08-2012, 02:35
It's not called Warsword 40,000 now, is it?

Think you just won the thread

TheMav80
10-08-2012, 03:00
So shouldn't you be using thunderhammers?

Schismotive
10-08-2012, 03:43
OR you can just go back to using a relic blade... seriously I personally saw my chaplain get effectively neutered with the switch to power mauls, he can't really beat anything meant to be a CC character anymore. Sure, models with T3 will suffer instant death but i already get that with my emperor's champion who's got a S6 AP3 weapon so... yay?

Drasanil
10-08-2012, 04:20
OR you can just go back to using a relic blade... seriously I personally saw my chaplain get effectively neutered with the switch to power mauls, he can't really beat anything meant to be a CC character anymore. Sure, models with T3 will suffer instant death but i already get that with my emperor's champion who's got a S6 AP3 weapon so... yay?

Bluh! At least marines aren't paying for really high initiative and have good toughness, armour and invuls to fall back on. Count yourself lucky you're not eldar of either type. Low Strength/Toughness and high Initiative make all forms of power weapons less than ideal, and it's worse for DE who pay premiums for 'enhanced' power weapons that are now less than desirable against the things you'd really want to point them at.

malisteen
10-08-2012, 04:32
Mauls better than swords against guard or most xenos, sure. But since marines are the most common opponents out there, you're generally far better off with a sword. Melee specialist squads will murder most geqs without taking a specialist weapon for it, and most melee specialists have krak grenades for vehicles anyway.

A squad armed with power mauls could be pretty cool, sure, but I wouldn't want to give one to a squad leader or HQ. Not penetrating marine armor is just too big a penalty on melee heroes.

TheDoctor
10-08-2012, 04:37
Shhhhhhhh.... Don't let people know that power mauls are good against my armies....

Clarkson
10-08-2012, 04:55
My Choas termies have a maul in there.. but just hitting a vehicle make them stunned right? hitting a dread on rear armour with a PF or PA is worth the 0 pts it costs to have that thing... and its not like i'll feel bad if he dies.. its 40pts in a 2k game.. big woop

Baaltor
10-08-2012, 05:34
You know if armour mitigation were used instead of AP it would balance all these weapons out. . .

ModelCalamity
10-08-2012, 06:10
I don't see why a maul is so much worse against marines.

If a sargeant with three attacks hits a MEQ. He has a 42% chance of causing a wound.
The same sarg with a sword has a 75% chance.

However in the next round the model struck by the maul would hit last. Which is considerable advantage.
At the same time when assaulting tanks or dreads, the maul gives you two additional attacks over a krak grenade at the same strength.

The way I see it a sarg with a maul would be great to throw in front of a dangerous character. Hoping to stun so your real challenger can step up and kill the now stunned enemy. Or at the very least send him to the back where he can't hurt you for a turn.

Str10_hurts
10-08-2012, 07:17
Play against orks, and you will be squealing like a baby that got a new toy.
The mauls nuke Nobs (and nobs on bike alike) and any Ork except for the mega Armour where your were not going to win anyway.

Its also a cheaper power fist, with an extra attack against DE, it instant kills them and ignores any of his saves, except incubi where your were not going to win anyway.
Deamons, well obvious with all those invulnerable saves.
Against IG, well of the options the maul is the best of them.

The only thing they are not as good against is 3+, which there is a lot of these days.

Anyone to care to do the math on T5 and T6 with a 3+ save?

Narf
10-08-2012, 09:26
I would rather take the increased chance of wounding, and more use all round, over less chance of wounding and better AP.

My rune priest has a runic staff, my wolf priest has a power maul - same rules, its all shiny!

daboarder
10-08-2012, 09:59
OR you can just go back to using a relic blade... seriously I personally saw my chaplain get effectively neutered with the switch to power mauls, he can't really beat anything meant to be a CC character anymore. Sure, models with T3 will suffer instant death but i already get that with my emperor's champion who's got a S6 AP3 weapon so... yay?

WHAT A LOAD OF CROCK!

Seriously any combat character worth their salt has a 2+ or 3+ armour save and a 4,3,2 ++ save so your vaulted AP3 does jack! Much rather have concussive and +2S.

viv714r
10-08-2012, 10:32
I would rather take the increased chance of wounding, and more use all round, over less chance of wounding and better AP.

My rune priest has a runic staff, my wolf priest has a power maul - same rules, its all shiny!

Exactly, it shouldn't be that because your weapon doesn't ignore 3+ it's redundant, for me it's about the feel of the army. My Dark Angels have several mauls between veterans, sergeants and chaplains baecause they look cool and turn stuff into a pulpy messs.

Xandros
10-08-2012, 11:19
Fascinating.

Weight of fire, namely high-strength shooting, has long been the holy grail of shooting because of cover being everywhere (confirmation bias). Now that the same thing becomes more pertinent in close combat, its' apparently difficult to get used to.

You may have certain expectations about the way the game and the world works, and those are worth examining: It may seem obvious that flat out ignoring armour will be unambigously superior. Same logic goes for preference of lascannons over assault cannons.

Intuition isn't intuitive. More to point: Intuition isn't instintive, it's learned. My intuition may not be the same as yours, but the world doesn't budge to our preconceptions, at least not without a fight, not without some violence and a waste of resource.

Since we play a game of dice it's well worth examining how those probabilities work, even if it's not the whole picture. A demolisher cannon is CLEARLY superior to a battlecannon right? Let's see how that works from across the board.

3 0f 6
10-08-2012, 12:46
In real war units have to make due with what they've got. The fictional example that comes to mind is the final skirmish in Saving Private Ryan, in which infantry sorely low on ammo attempt to halt an armoured column with makeshift explosives and sheer grit.





With socks!!!!

Kevlar
10-08-2012, 13:19
On HQ (chaos sorcerers for me) models I'd rather take a force axe than a maul though. They have the armor/invul and wounds to spare so going last isn't a bad thing. Easier to get a wound through with the axe, and when all you need is one....

Chem-Dog
10-08-2012, 13:19
Contrary to popular belief, power mauls aren't completey usless. Against Guardsmen....

TBH, why bother against guard? The number of times you're likely wound but not kill a model are few the amount of times you'll benefit from inflicting the resulting Initiative drop are almost entirely non existent.

Elios Harg
10-08-2012, 13:56
Assuming WS5 vs. 4 and 3 attacks (2+ extra CCW), against everything except 3+ armor saves, the maul/staff is superior. Against 3+ saves and T4, the sword is superior since about 50% of the time you'll fail to get an unsaved wound through with the maul while typically, the sword will score an unsaved wound. Against 3+ saves and T3, it depends on if FNP or multiple wounds are present. Against 3+ and T5, the sword still has a slight edge. At 3+ and T6-7, they're about equal with the sword being slightly better against T7. Against anything T8+ the maul is superior since the sword can't hurt it at all. Of course, against anything with a 3++ save or better, the maul is superior and while I haven't done the math, I'd probably prefer the maul on anything with a 4++ as well since any superiority of the sword is likely lost by the invuln save.

Haravikk
10-08-2012, 14:05
A lot of people seem to be assuming that the power mauls would only ever be taken by a Space Marine with a Strength of 4, in which case that's already plenty for most situations so sure, a power sword is probably better overall. However, for weaker models the story is completely different; I am absolutely taking power mauls on my Sisters of Battle, as Strength 5 means its just plain easier to wound everything I might come across, not just marines, and concussive means they won't be hitting back as quickly next time round, which again applies to more enemies. So for Strength 3 I think it's just a great all round weapon.

A.T.
10-08-2012, 14:20
So for Strength 3 I think it's just a great all round weapon.I'd probably go for an axe at S3 I3 - the maul loses all of it's application against t3 multiwounds and is far less effective against vehicles, whereas the axe is a better bet for kill the lone marine or two capable of tying up or running down your otherwise combat-ineffective unit.

Chapters Unwritten
10-08-2012, 14:40
I don't see why a maul is so much worse against marines.

If a sargeant with three attacks hits a MEQ. He has a 42% chance of causing a wound.
The same sarg with a sword has a 75% chance.

However in the next round the model struck by the maul would hit last. Which is considerable advantage.
At the same time when assaulting tanks or dreads, the maul gives you two additional attacks over a krak grenade at the same strength.

The way I see it a sarg with a maul would be great to throw in front of a dangerous character. Hoping to stun so your real challenger can step up and kill the now stunned enemy. Or at the very least send him to the back where he can't hurt you for a turn.This.

The combo is to use the maul against tough multi-wound enemies or on vehicles. Knocking them down to I1 is hugely helpful. The first round you won't get much difference, but the second round, you will end them for sure.

My Wolf Priest does fine for himself; whatever he knocks to I1 promptly gets chopped to bits by I1 axes.

Haravikk
10-08-2012, 15:29
I'd probably go for an axe at S3 I3
Well, I suppose in the specific case of Sisters I have option of just throwing Sisters Repentia at anything with too much armour, especially now that it's possible to actually send them where I want them, and with up to 4 attacks each to boot, so I don't really have much need for axes since there's nothing an axe can do that an eviscerator can't do but with more flying chunks of enemy, especially with the higher number of attacks they have (Rage isn't a bad thing anymore, yay!).


the maul loses all of it's application against t3 multiwounds
Wounding on 2's is still preferable to 3's; toughness 3 characters with good armour sure, but I don't think I'd want squad leaders fighting them anyway. Even if they did, with a bit of luck I'd have a character of my own nearby to step in, and probably do so with an eviscerator as well :)


and is far less effective against vehicles
Less effective than the axe? While the +1 to damage table rolls for AP2 is nice, the extra strength on the maul means I'm much more likely to hurt the thing in the first place, and with hull-points glancing hits are better than trying to stack the damage table IMO. That said I almost never hit twice with any single model against anything, but sometimes I do. Even so, getting a penetrating hit with Strength 4 then getting the damage table result I need is just too random for my tastes; Strength 5 should at least glance with a bit more reliability, and with grenades and (hopefully) some shooting before the vehicle got that close I think that comparative reliability is better.


I'm not saying the power maul wins out; if anything I'd say it's very evenly balanced.
If the majority of your opponents are marine armies then by all means, power mauls won't be your best choice; not exactly bad, but it'll be more use against their vehicles than the marines themselves, though the initiative penalty could tip the balance in the right circumstances. But if you have a more balanced assortment of opponents (I guess I'm lucky that I do) then power maul wins it for me, though I still wouldn't leave home without an eviscerator or ten nearby :)

Inevitable
10-08-2012, 22:46
As a Tyranid Player that loves his Monstrous Infantry / Monstrous Creatures I can attest to this:

Powermauls hurt, hard.

The best part is, you only have to claim "Power Weapon" on your sheet. Then if you have 2 characters built identical (1 with a power sword, 1 with a power maul) you place the one that is best suited to the game.

It's fluffy too... do you try to squash a bug with a knife, or your boot?

Bludgeon the bugs to death to my dismay -.-

Kevlar
10-08-2012, 23:33
The best part is, you only have to claim "Power Weapon" on your sheet. Then if you have 2 characters built identical (1 with a power sword, 1 with a power maul) you place the one that is best suited to the game.

It's fluffy too... do you try to squash a bug with a knife, or your boot?

Bludgeon the bugs to death to my dismay -.-

I think that would be highly frowned upon if not down right illegal in multi-game tournaments.

Clarkson
10-08-2012, 23:45
I think that would be highly frowned upon if not down right illegal in multi-game tournaments.

rules state you buy the power weapon (or its already part of wargear) and then you see how its modelled for what type.. doesnt say you have to specify what type of PW it is.. so magnetize the options and have fun

Inevitable
11-08-2012, 00:14
I think that would be highly frowned upon if not down right illegal in multi-game tournaments.

Why? I have no problem with people doing it. It just makes sense that as they see what enemy they are about to do battle with, they equip themselves with the proper Light-Sword-Axe-Mace. Again, this comes from a Tyranid player and I prefer marines having the option to pick and choose. Makes for better games!

If tournaments wish to disallow it they may, and then abide by those rules and have fun! Either way, I'm not going to cry if the person I play against throws down a maul instead of a sword. Hell you won't even know half the time what they used earlier in the day.

Let people have their power mauls and play with it. If someone spends the money, time, and effort to magnetize multi-power weapons. They SHOULD be able to use it that way (providing if they were in a tournament it was also allowed!) Do you know how annoying it is to try to magnetize all of that.. while making it fit snug AND still looking appropriate? Kudos to the hobbiest who succeeds.

Kevlar
11-08-2012, 00:51
Why? I have no problem with people doing it. It just makes sense that as they see what enemy they are about to do battle with, they equip themselves with the proper Light-Sword-Axe-Mace. Again, this comes from a Tyranid player and I prefer marines having the option to pick and choose. Makes for better games!

If tournaments wish to disallow it they may, and then abide by those rules and have fun! Either way, I'm not going to cry if the person I play against throws down a maul instead of a sword. Hell you won't even know half the time what they used earlier in the day.

Let people have their power mauls and play with it. If someone spends the money, time, and effort to magnetize multi-power weapons. They SHOULD be able to use it that way (providing if they were in a tournament it was also allowed!) Do you know how annoying it is to try to magnetize all of that.. while making it fit snug AND still looking appropriate? Kudos to the hobbiest who succeeds.

I've magnetized about 20 terminators a defiler and pretty much all my special weapons, plasma, melta, flamers, etc. Takes about 3 seconds with a dremmel and some rare earth magnets. I still wouldn't swap in a tournament, and if someone tried to pull a "power weapon" trick on me I'd tell an official.

Inevitable
11-08-2012, 01:02
I've magnetized about 20 terminators a defiler and pretty much all my special weapons, plasma, melta, flamers, etc. Takes about 3 seconds with a dremmel and some rare earth magnets. I still wouldn't swap in a tournament, and if someone tried to pull a "power weapon" trick on me I'd tell an official.

And again, if you can paint them so they look as flush as a static model, kudos to you. I've found the small magnets too weak to hold a good pose and often look disjointed and disconnected from the model. As I said, one should check with the TO prior to the event. According to the rules it's allowed. I'm not even a user of this rule and I'm in favor for it. As far as I can discern from the rules, it is allowed. It doesn't break the game any which way, it's simply an option.

Also, I'd like to see you fully magnetize a model in 3 seconds ;) Semantics but just pointing out, it does take far more time than just glueing an arm on :) And if people want to spend the time doing that, and in the context of the rules they can, they should be allowed.

Either way, let us respect that each other has a mature opinion on the matter and get back to the discussion.

Personally, I think the Power Maul is the best choice for a ground-troop. I'm inclined to say Power-Lances on a Biker though.

viv714r
11-08-2012, 01:32
All power weapons are viable choices, it's just that now there's a power weapon for every occasion be it heavily armoured or tough or what-not. While a lot of armies don't have access to all the types inthe coming months there will most likely be more variation.

Thoth62
11-08-2012, 01:58
Personally, I think the Power Maul is the best choice for a ground-troop. I'm inclined to say Power-Lances on a Biker though.

"Cavalry" hammers look pretty badass too though. I've got a SM biker sergeant dating back to the 4th edition codex modeled with an power armoured Iron Hands thunderhammer.

I think it's pretty cool. :cool:

Aluinn
11-08-2012, 05:36
In absolutely general terms, the maul/hammer/mace is one of the better types of power weapon. The vast majority of infantry don't go above T4, so they're wounding on 2s or 3s; they strike at I value, unlike the axe, and grant an even greater S boost, and unlike the lance do it every round; most importantly they grant the largest boost against vehicles, which may be very desirable for anyone without krak grenades, which certainly includes some units with power weapon options e.g. Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders.

The sole reason they're maligned is that 3+ saves are disproportionately common because, of course, Marines are disproportionately common, but people need to understand that GW cannot balance things of this nature around that. The prevalence of Marines is a matter of player choice and, when you're writing rules, you can't just make things cheaper or whatever because they're less good against Marines--you have to consider all possible opposition (though obviously take into account that e.g. Monstrous Creatures are far less common than T3/4 infantry, because that occurs within an army). The argument that mauls suck is basically the same argument that pulse rifles suck, when in fact they're amazingly good in a general sense; everyone just does their mathhammer on average MEQ/TEQ kills and of course this makes them look shoddy when those are their least ideal targets in many ways.

ReveredChaplainDrake
11-08-2012, 06:16
The real kicker is that they all cost the same amount of points when they're not all equally good. Not just against some things, but against many things. It's more than just Marines. It's Chaos Marines. It's Necron Lords. It's Eldar Striking Scorpions. It's Sisters of Battle. It's Crisis Suits. (Who, contrary to popular conception, being Tau and all, will still whip your tails if you can't get wounds on them faster than they put them on you.) If it has a 3+ save, and you were a chump enough to pay premium points for a special CCW, then by the Emperor, that weapon had better ignore armor saves. Unless you ignore armor, you're giving your opponent the chance to save their dude, and if they roll hot, you're going to lose your unit in the ensuing counterattack for nothing. Not saying the opponent will always pass their saves, but there's nothing saying that you'll always make that 3" charge over clear ground. Ignoring armor means you don't give your opponent the chance to roll hot at all, ergo replacing dumb luck with predetermined skill. And whenever you are given the opportunity to replace luck with skill... doooooo eeeeeet!!!!

Personally I'm of the opinion that the axe is the best weapon, particularly if you have a 2+ save, multiple wounds, and / or a snazzy IV save of your own. In any other circumstances, save your points and stick to fisticuffs and the odd combi-weapon. Face it, the Sergeant in question is just gonna' die chump-blocking a killy enemy character anyway. No sense giving him an expensive weapon that's about as threatening to terminator armor as those little red whippy sticks that they used to put in starter sets to measure range with. Mauls and Swords both have their roles, but are generally mediocre, especially if you can wrap your knuckles around a Thunder Hammer or some real weapon. Lances are horrible, so much that I wonder why this thread wasn't complaining about how utterly worthless Lances are. At least Mauls do something, if not being about 5 points too expensive for what that something actually winds up being.

TheDoctor
11-08-2012, 06:23
Lances are horrible, so much that I wonder why this thread wasn't complaining about how utterly worthless Lances are. At least Mauls do something, if not being about 5 points too expensive for what that something actually winds up being.

My Harlequin Troupe Master would like a word with you.

Xandros
11-08-2012, 07:39
@ ReveredChaplainDrake
Considering, they're all pretty mediocre. Equally mediocre perhaps. The axe is powerful, but you're guaranteed to get hit. The sword has decent ap but base strength. The lance is a slight twist on the sword. The maul has high strength but relatively poor ap. However it's only bad against 3+ saves! Against 4+ saves it shines and against 2+ saves it's still better than either the sword or lance and strikes before the axe with the bonus of beating your opponent silly if he survives a wound.

Str10_hurts
11-08-2012, 09:53
My Harlequin Troupe Master would like a word with you.

Oh god, A5 S5 power weapon on the charge 0_0.

I also like spears for assault marines or vanguard with jump packs, if your a blood angel player you very much like spears.

Xandros
11-08-2012, 10:42
It's fitting isn't it?

With imperial guard, maybe not so much. Their officers traditionally have swords that may not do a terrible lot of good in the hands of someone S3 I3 compared to a maul or axe, both of which are less (slightly less for the maul) reliant on initiative and provide a hearty strength boost. In either case, a powerfist is just better in the vast majority of interactions. Is there a case for the sword? It'd be a narrow one. Swords, I feel, are largely at their best for the inhumanly strong and superhumanly fast.

Bilmengar
11-08-2012, 11:18
I don't think a PF is necessarily better than a PW. For example, Guard can't take many of the former. Also, you have one more attack, if you don't buy 2 fists - which IMHO gehts silly expensive.

Then again, with the large amount of Marines around who scoff at anything not a Thunderhammer for close combat... Seriously, not every army has a vast array of different CC-Weapons, and for those alone I think it is nice to have different options when chosing a Power Weapon.

Azulthar
11-08-2012, 14:44
90% of my games are against Marines, so Power Mauls suck.

+2 Strength doesn't compensate, not even close. People put too much faith in weight of fire, having AP3 is almost always better.

Xerkics
11-08-2012, 16:02
Well if you got an axe you better hope you got a good invulnerable save . one of the Main advantages of HQ other other things is their premium Init so by buying a power axe you are pretty much throwing that advantage away. If you are likely to be playing against army with higher init axe might be an option otherwise not guaranteed.

Xandros
11-08-2012, 16:19
90% of my games are against Marines, so Power Mauls suck.

+2 Strength doesn't compensate, not even close. People put too much faith in weight of fire, having AP3 is almost always better.

Yes, very often, but not always. If you could habitually score thrice as many wounds and not ignore saves it would come to the exact same as being ap3 against a 3+ save. That's rarely a realistic prospect, but if say, a chaos spawn hit on a sister of battle ("how you doin"), it will wound on 2+, while she will wound it on 6+. They hit each other with the same ease, and let's, for the sake of argument, assume that they have as many attacks. Let's say 6 for the ease of calculation. The sister of battle will cause 1 wound while the chaos spawn will cause 5. This is well above and beyond the 3 wounds we needed for an equivalent chance at rolling that 1-2. The chaos spawn will come out on top, regardless of the sister superior's superior armour.

But is that really the same as if you had ignored the armour save? After all, there's one less die to roll, one less factor in the equation. Yes and no. It's like you had a 6/6 chance of penetrating armour. You still have to hit, and if you landed thrice as many wounds to compensate for your power weapon (the idea that we're toying with), you would still roll to hit with each of those attacks. It's not certain either way, not unless you autohit, autowound, and cannot be saved against. Even if you ignore saves and wound automatically, you may still only hit half the time. Each of these factors scale with all the others. It's no good ignoring armour if you can't hit or you hit like cotton candy.

Then along comes a squig with a power weapon (that's for another story), challenging the sister of battle (who got lucky) (ie the chaos spawn didn't). It's a fierce fighter with ws3 and 6 attacks. But only s1. Again it's simple: It causes only 1 wound, bypassing armour. The sister strikes simultaeneously and wounds it 5 times. The squig would need one hell of an armour save to get out of that one. On the other hand, while the sister of battle can't save, it might have happened that the squig scored no wounds at all. It's most likely to score 1 wound (under our ridiculous assumptions) but it might also have scored no wounds, or not even any hits.

Probabilities aren't absolute, they're just saying what most commonly happens in a given circumstance: It's not very common that one rolls a 6, much less two in a row. If you need that to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat you're -probably- not going to win. It's just what most commonly happens. Only as we try a great number of times does this expected value coalesce.

Let's try to imagine something completely random. 50-50, as fair as fair can be. On 1-3 you miss, on 4-6 you hit. Totally random. After that you must roll to wound: 1-3 you fluff it, 4-6 you wound. Totally random. So then the guy has a save of 4+ (probably invulnerable, the git), 1-3 he fails, 4-6 he can go home and have lunch. Totally random.

But even though each step is random, there's only a single chain of events that will result in your hated foe being consigned to oblivion. You have to first hit, then wound, then he must fail his save: This probaility we can express as **. 1/2 times 1/2 is 1/4, times 1/2 is 1/8. All in all there's a 1/8 chance that you'll win while conversely your nemesis has a 7/8 chance of getting away with his nefarious plot (That's 7 divided by 8= .874).

As events combine, however random they be, their intersections will have a clear pattern to it that we can use to plan ahead.

At the end of the day, there are very few certainties, but the longer you stay alive, the more shots you get off and the more stuff you opponent has to worry about.

viv714r
13-08-2012, 17:20
90% of my games are against Marines, so Power Mauls suck.

+2 Strength doesn't compensate, not even close. People put too much faith in weight of fire, having AP3 is almost always better.

You sir, are the reason I started this thread, the attitude of "If it can't ignore power armour it's not a useful weapon". Go ahead and use swords and axes instead of mauls but keep a few close at hand for nob bikers.

Chapters Unwritten
13-08-2012, 17:29
Math hammer guys always talk about averages. I think it's a lot smarter to talk in terms of potential total effect. It is possible for the maul to do more wounds, which is something important to consider.


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Lord Damocles
13-08-2012, 17:48
I think it's a lot smarter to talk in terms of potential total effect.
Although, by that line of thinking, the Leman Russ Punisher is the ultimate Marine killer :p

Carnage
13-08-2012, 17:49
Math hammer guys always talk about averages. I think it's a lot smarter to talk in terms of potential total effect. It is possible for the maul to do more wounds, which is something important to consider.


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What? All the power weapons have the same "potential total effect" in that they all generate the same number of attacks. The only difference is in the averages to wound/save and for the axe, the initiative penalty.

Breaks down to;

Axe does the most damage against pretty much everything, but at I1, so makes a bad duel weapon.
Maul is better against 2+ and 4+ save troops then a sword.
Lance is situational and entirely dependant on getting the charge to stop it from being the worse weapon.

Wanna win duels against MEQs? Take a sword
Wanna win duels against non-MEQs? Take a Maul
Wanna just carve as much up as possible and have someone else to absorb duels for you? Take an axe or powerfist
Wanna play a gimmicky "Kill everything on the charge" style? Try a Lance.

Personally, I run axes or fists. Anything a sword/maul can do would be better dealt with via a cannon fodder sergeants, more models in the unit or just plain old shooting.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-08-2012, 18:28
I think it's a lot smarter to talk in terms of potential total effect.I'm a big fan of "minimum likely effect" - what can I virtually count on accomplishing? That's what I need to know to make decisions about what goes where. The fact that two charging guardsmen could kill a Bloodthirster is not tactically relevant.

-Loki-
14-08-2012, 01:21
Mauls make my Tyranids cry. Watching my friends BT Chaplain carve through everything he touched was awful. Of course he hit a brick wall when he ran into a carnifex, but a squaddie with power fist took care of that. Some armies just weep against mauls.

The_Klobb_Maniac
14-08-2012, 01:32
IMO Mauls are actually a bit OP. They're almost as good against MEQ (80% as good as a sword or so) and against EVERYTHING ELSE they're way better. They pwn up vehicles like nobodies business and pulp anything with a 4+ save like nothing. They're the best choice by a long shot IMO. Take out termies and meq with wounds LIKE YOU ALWAYS HAVE, don't try to out-tech 'em.


90% of my games are against Marines, so Power Mauls suck.


+2 Strength doesn't compensate, not even close. People put too much faith in weight of fire, having AP3 is almost always better.

There's something in this world called math. Use it.

EDIT: on second thought.. don't. Maybe I'll get lucky and face you someday ;)

FashaTheDog
14-08-2012, 02:28
If you're going to a tournament with power weapon on your roster and then play musical ICs, then why not just model one guy with a weapon that splits into a sword, axe, maul, and spear just above the guard? Look, you have one weapon with all the different types; just claim the functional part for that game and the rest is decorative. :p

Carnage
14-08-2012, 02:48
If you're going to a tournament with power weapon on your roster and then play musical ICs, then why not just model one guy with a weapon that splits into a sword, axe, maul, and spear just above the guard? Look, you have one weapon with all the different types; just claim the functional part for that game and the rest is decorative. :p

That's terrifically evil...I LIKE IT! Magnetize all the appropriate weapons for each sergeant and choose the relevant one before setting up each battle.

Stinkfoot
14-08-2012, 02:51
I'm having a hard time imagining the situations in which Power Mauls are the best weapon... Against Marines they obviously are worse than Axes and Swords. Against 'Nids they're worse against the Big Bugs, relative to Axes (+1 str ignore armor is much better than +2 str), against Eldar they're either as good as axes (wound on 2's ignore armor against 4+ troops) or worse (wound on twos and ignore armor with the axe or don't ignore with the maul). Against IG they're effectively the same (except against squishy Senior Officers - who *******' cares?). The only enemy I can see the Maul being best against is Orks, who have good toughness and, save one unit, 4+ saves or worse. In an all comer's list would anybody take the Maul over the alternatives?!

Hawthorne
14-08-2012, 03:07
If you are fighting terminators would you rather be S6 AP4 or S4 AP3?
Even against marines you are getting nearly twice the wounds for one third unsaved. So it's not far off 2/3 as effective.
If you know the armor of the opponent beforehand of course there's something to be said for having the right option between the Axe, Sword and Maul.
All 3 variants have uses and some overlap. Against MOST Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG, Orks, Tyranids, and DaemonsI'd rather have a Maul, and some Necrons
Against Most marines I'd rather have a sword, against most other necron.
Against terminators, mega-nobs, 2+ Tyranids, and the few other 2+ things (Phoenix lords, etc.) I'd rather have an Axe.

Yeah losing 1 point of AP sucks against the large number of marine armies but +2 strength is almost always useful (who cares if I have +1 AP against orks except Meganobz?)

Glen_Savet
14-08-2012, 03:36
Swiss Army Power weapon ftw.

The_Klobb_Maniac
14-08-2012, 05:37
Whoa whoa whoa. you're again just pretending at the math:
T6 3+ save is the same math either way. One you score 3 times as many wounds but they save 2 out of 3 times. So Nids; check
Eldar are almost all 4+ or worse, same with DE, so Eldar+ DE; check
Orks, Check
IG, Check
MEQ, still good; just a not *as* good
TEQ; way better than swords.. so.. Check


IMO the only ways to go are Axes or Mauls. You can use the "who cares" argument, but trust me, being able to maul through FnP on DE or being able to easily wound things or punch dreads is fantastic. I can see why you'd go Axe over maul, because you want to be effective against everything. There's two ways to be effective against everything:
-Always ignore armor
-Or having high strength

Powerswords do neither, and thus don't make the list IMO. I'd take spears over swords (for the free "Furious Charge" like bonus it gives, but even then, why not just be S5-6?)

Carnage
14-08-2012, 05:58
Whoa whoa whoa. you're again just pretending at the math:
T6 3+ save is the same math either way. One you score 3 times as many wounds but they save 2 out of 3 times. So Nids; check
Eldar are almost all 4+ or worse, same with DE, so Eldar+ DE; check
Orks, Check
IG, Check
MEQ, still good; just a not *as* good
TEQ; way better than swords.. so.. Check


IMO the only ways to go are Axes or Mauls. You can use the "who cares" argument, but trust me, being able to maul through FnP on DE or being able to easily wound things or punch dreads is fantastic. I can see why you'd go Axe over maul, because you want to be effective against everything. There's two ways to be effective against everything:
-Always ignore armor
-Or having high strength

Powerswords do neither, and thus don't make the list IMO. I'd take spears over swords (for the free "Furious Charge" like bonus it gives, but even then, why not just be S5-6?)

I wouldn't rate mauls in terms of punching dreadnoughts. You are much better off with melta-bombs in that respect. Even the argument of glancing them to death is kinda moot since most MeQ squads have krak grenades, and they will cover your "torrent" side of things.

I've seen people put forth the idea of Lances on Death Company for example. Combined with furious charge they become fully retarded. S6, AP3 with 5 attacks on the charge, typically with rerolls to hit and wound. Each DC marine has the effective hitting power of a Hive Tyrant against other marines. 2 Lances and 3 normal DC will typically wipe out a 10 man MeQ squad on the charge, and all for 130 points.