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Cap'n Facebeard
12-08-2012, 06:13
Well 40k has allies now. What if 9th ed rolls around, or a White Dwarf comes out, and allies are suddenly part of Fantasy?
Would you explode with rage / joy? :mad:
Would there be some kill-everyone combination? :skull:
Would one army be strangely unable to ally with anyone? :eyebrows:
Was I really bored enough to start this thread??? :shifty:

Anyway lets kick it around.

Mech
12-08-2012, 06:23
If memory serves me right back in the 90s whfb did have allies, like 25% could ally based on a chart in the battles book. I think it would bring some much needed versatility in an upcoming edition!

NitrosOkay
12-08-2012, 06:29
They already are in Fantasy. Just play Storm of Magic.

It's fun!

MajorWesJanson
12-08-2012, 06:34
From a sales perspective, allies are great. They let players indulge in new releases without having to start an entire new army (thus buying new stuff more often) and once a player has their foot in the door with a small allied force, it is easier to get them to expand to a full army of that faction. Again, more sales.

From a non-Fantasy players perspective (just the BRB and High Elves AB, no novels), I can see some obvious faction groupings for allies:
Chaos Warriors, Daemons, Beastmen all buddies
High Elves with Wood Elves and maybe lizardmen
Empire with Dwarves, Bretonnia, and maybe Vampire counts
Bretonnia with Wood Elves
Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings?
Orcs and Ogres seem like good choices for mid level allies for most factions, no real enemies or strong allies.

and some obvious non-alliances
High elves vs Dark Elves
High elves vs Chaos
Lizardmen vs Chaos
Dwarves vs Elves
Empire vs Chaos

NitrosOkay
12-08-2012, 06:39
Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings HATE each other more than any other faction. They're probably the least likely to ally other than High Elves and Dark Elves.

Gor
12-08-2012, 06:42
Mech is right in that, in older editions, armies could be composed of up to 25% allies. I don't have my old books around me, but I think legal allies were included in the AB and BRB.



Chaos Warriors, Daemons, Beastmen all buddies


Beastmen hate Warriors of Chaos. They're jealous of the gifts the Chaos gods bestow upon men. Beastmen are the true children of Chaos, so the gods don't have to tempt them with anything.

TornadoCreator
12-08-2012, 08:50
Guys.... page 136-139 of the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook. Allies in Warhammer Fantasy already exists (and that's without using the Storm Of Magic pacts rules which are decent also).

You'll be shocked how easy it is to justify allied games. I once played an allied game that went something like this.

Dark Elves, Daemons, & High Elves
- vs -
Empire, Vampire Counts, & Warriors Of Chaos

We justified it as follows. The Elf players where playing a radical anti-human sect, the Dark Elves where Reavers and Pirates along the Norse sea-lines who considered humans inferior by default. There time around the Norselands has caused them to experience the winds of Chaos frequently, many now being supporters of the Dark Elven cult of Slaanesh as such they regularly bring with them their Daemon allies on raids. The High Elves involved are a radical splinter group from Ulthuan who've begun to recognise Malekith as the official ruler of the Elven people. Working on the inside to help the Dark Elves regain power on the Elven homelands, they syphon High Elf magic back to Naggaroth. For this raid however they sent a full armed contingent to join the Dark Elf Reaver fleet, both to show how far the rebellions reach is spreading and to show the Empire of Men just how inferior they are.

Back in the Old World one of the northern port towns has an army waiting seeing Dark Elven Reaver ships on the horizon they're expecting a raid. Recent raids by Orcs & Goblins has reduced the Empire numbers, their standing army is too small to take on these raiders, a Knightly Order in service to the God of the Dead, Morr, makes up the core of the force. As the army await the attack a caravan of black coaches draw into town, a man far older than he should steps out, announcing that the support of Sylvania is theirs if they want it reminding them that the Nobles of Sylvania have a long running respect for the Order of Morr. With little room to argue the people, unnerved, agree. Mere hours before the fleet comes in word comes of a Chaos Host marching south along the cost, many warriors and knights holding frightful banners yet they're not ransacking towns. An emissary of the Chaos Host approaches the town, meeting with the town guard saying only this; "In the upcoming battle we are allies, aboard those ships true service is not being shown, three of our lords grow jealous and have marked us for greatness today. A balance must be met or all shall feel their wrath, the forces of the wastes are here to teach the Prince of Pleasure some humility. Either you will fight along side us for glory or we with charge through you", and with that Chaos Warriors marched in step to reinforce the coast.

The game was a genuinely fun game. Six players, a massive 10ft by 6ft "sea landing" game board (made by a friend of mine and one of the people playing). We each had a 3000 point army (so 9,000 points per side), and it took us from 1pm until about 7pm to finish the game (although that did include a 30 min trip to Subway half-way in).

shelfunit.
12-08-2012, 08:58
Beastmen hate Warriors of Chaos. They're jealous of the gifts the Chaos gods bestow upon men. Beastmen are the true children of Chaos, so the gods don't have to tempt them with anything.

Only for the last few years. As has been said, allies have been part of Warhammer for a loooong time - back in 3rd ed the vast majority of armies could have at least 1/3 of the points in allies and mercenaries.

TornadoCreator
12-08-2012, 09:11
Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings HATE each other more than any other faction. They're probably the least likely to ally other than High Elves and Dark Elves.

While that's true, if the Tomb Kings player was using the special character Arkhan The Black for example, he's considered a traitor by Settra, The Great King of the Tomb Kings. With the history they have with Lahmian Vampires, I could see Arkhan using that history to gain an ally, fight in a few battles etc, in the hope of using his new found Vampire allies to strike back at Settra, or the Vampire usine Arkhan's army as extra cannon-fodder against the main Tomb Kings... it'd be a shaky alliance but it could work. That's why I like Warhammer Fantasy, it's got a very rich detailed world so much so that even the most unreasonable things can be made plausible, (even if the world is largely derivative from Earth, just with magic).

Artinam
12-08-2012, 09:12
I wouldn't be shocked, its quasi possible now. Wouldn't regularly use them but that something else.

Cap'n Facebeard
12-08-2012, 10:23
Dudes, I'm aware we used to have allies as a big partof the rules, and that the BRB gives you some ideas for using allies esp with 'uge games in mind. But what if your army books had a section, alongside Core Special etc, that was Allies, and gave you 25% or so to spend in any size battle, with no prearrangement, and GW went nuts upselling toi everyone? Would you go nuts? What would you pull out of your hat?

Solegga
12-08-2012, 11:00
If memory serves me right back in the 90s whfb did have allies, like 25% could ally based on a chart in the battles book. I think it would bring some much needed versatility in an upcoming edition!


+1 It sure would!
It would definitely give a great bust on the armies one would face. Let's say I'm expecting to see Skaven. OK. Played againts them, know what I'm expecting too see. The Bell, slaves, the HPAbom etc... Ooops! :eek: what's that? Lizardmen renegades? Yeah, you know, them guys who were to be sacrificed by the Slan but got away. Hmmm... Suddenly things change. What is it more I see? They are mounted on Carnosaurs?! :evilgrin:

Suddenly them rats got cavalry. Along with the darts (giant rats), this takes it to a whole new level... Gets me more interested! :cool:

yabbadabba
12-08-2012, 11:25
Why can't you have allies now?

Answer: you can.

cyberspite
12-08-2012, 12:51
I don't think it would change much to be honest, as people have said nothing is stopping you using allies now, particularly in friendly pickup games. If it's a multi-player or campaign game they can help add character and backstory to themed lists.

However for competitive games I don't think it would work, some people would just see at as a way of optimising their list, imagine a skaven army with a random unit of chaos knights, or lizardmen with a battery of empire cannons. Now this would be fine if your opponent is playing the same game, but for comped tournaments it would just create too many issues.

underscore
12-08-2012, 13:30
How do the 40k allies stuff work then? Are they limited in any way (no rare or somesuch) or is it like fantasy where you just pair two seperate armies?

logan054
12-08-2012, 13:32
I don't think it would change much to be honest, as people have said nothing is stopping you using allies now, particularly in friendly pickup games. If it's a multi-player or campaign game they can help add character and backstory to themed lists.

However for competitive games I don't think it would work, some people would just see at as a way of optimising their list, imagine a skaven army with a random unit of chaos knights, or lizardmen with a battery of empire cannons. Now this would be fine if your opponent is playing the same game, but for comped tournaments it would just create too many issues.

You people said the same thing about 40k, its nonsense, the pure lists seem to do better because they are not wasting points on a character which they don't need, I have rules to use daemon and beastman allies for my WoC, such a lovely FW book, when I can afford I will go out and buy the few bitz I need to make the list I want, some skin wolves and bloodletters and I'm done really. I don't really see how Skaven with chaos knights would even be that bad because honestly they will have to drop a hell of a lot of stuff just to fit that in. Its not even like Cavalry is that amazing this edition, same with the lizardmen example, you mean 3 cannons right? because I have seen lizardmen struggle without those! Honestly its just a gimik that throws a bone to less competitive players.

Like I said it, doesn't effect me, I have rules to do it which actually make the army more fun to use.

Sexiest_hero
12-08-2012, 15:14
You people said the same thing about 40k, its nonsense, the pure lists seem to do better because they are not wasting points on a character which they don't need, I have rules to use daemon and beastman allies for my WoC, such a lovely FW book, when I can afford I will go out and buy the few bitz I need to make the list I want, some skin wolves and bloodletters and I'm done really. I don't really see how Skaven with chaos knights would even be that bad because honestly they will have to drop a hell of a lot of stuff just to fit that in. Its not even like Cavalry is that amazing this edition, same with the lizardmen example, you mean 3 cannons right? because I have seen lizardmen struggle without those! Honestly its just a gimik that throws a bone to less competitive players.

Like I said it, doesn't effect me, I have rules to do it which actually make the army more fun to use.

After you face the darkharly start, Or the grots of Nurgle, you'll change your tune. Allies in fantasy can work, they do in SoM. It's a great game, try it.

Snake1311
12-08-2012, 16:28
Why can't you have allies now?

Answer: you can.

True dat, although those rules are designed for multiplayer games.

A doubles tournament (2x1000 pt 2x1200pts) will have a completely different (higher!) power level than a singles at 2000 or 2400pts, for those teams that care to optimize. Allowing this in singleplayer games will throw balance out of whack pretty quickly. Although I do find it amusing that two of the strongest armies (DE/Skaven) get the short end of the stick :)


You people said the same thing about 40k, its nonsense

I'm not 100% sure how exactly the allied rules are applied to 40k, but considering the rulebook allowing them was out less than a month ago, its a little early to be calling nonsense.

-Totenkopf-
12-08-2012, 16:35
I have always been a fan of allies.. We p;lay them now when we do doubles games.. however, it would be nice to be include a little something in your actual list again... On a side note, a lot of references have been made to storm of magic.. I want GW to bring all the new monsters to the regular game without all the magic fulcrum mumbo jumbo, ie, binding scrolls for regular lists..

theunwantedbeing
12-08-2012, 16:54
Fine by me.
You'de need a hero and a block of infantry and to abide by the percentages for the allies making it very tricky to cram in anything abusive.

logan054
12-08-2012, 17:05
After you face the darkharly start, Or the grots of Nurgle, you'll change your tune. Allies in fantasy can work, they do in SoM. It's a great game, try it.

Huh, why will I change my Tune, I dont need them for my vampire counts and I have the FW book so I can use the great chaos host!

Melkanador
12-08-2012, 17:09
For fungames I couldnīt care less, for competitive games a no go.

BigbyWolf
12-08-2012, 17:25
Guys.... page 136-139 of the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook. Allies in Warhammer Fantasy already exists (and that's without using the Storm Of Magic pacts rules which are decent also).

You'll be shocked how easy it is to justify allied games. I once played an allied game that went something like this.

Dark Elves, Daemons, & High Elves
- vs -
Empire, Vampire Counts, & Warriors Of Chaos

We justified it as follows. The Elf players where playing a radical anti-human sect, the Dark Elves where Reavers and Pirates along the Norse sea-lines who considered humans inferior by default. There time around the Norselands has caused them to experience the winds of Chaos frequently, many now being supporters of the Dark Elven cult of Slaanesh as such they regularly bring with them their Daemon allies on raids. The High Elves involved are a radical splinter group from Ulthuan who've begun to recognise Malekith as the official ruler of the Elven people. Working on the inside to help the Dark Elves regain power on the Elven homelands, they syphon High Elf magic back to Naggaroth. For this raid however they sent a full armed contingent to join the Dark Elf Reaver fleet, both to show how far the rebellions reach is spreading and to show the Empire of Men just how inferior they are.

Back in the Old World one of the northern port towns has an army waiting seeing Dark Elven Reaver ships on the horizon they're expecting a raid. Recent raids by Orcs & Goblins has reduced the Empire numbers, their standing army is too small to take on these raiders, a Knightly Order in service to the God of the Dead, Morr, makes up the core of the force. As the army await the attack a caravan of black coaches draw into town, a man far older than he should steps out, announcing that the support of Sylvania is theirs if they want it reminding them that the Nobles of Sylvania have a long running respect for the Order of Morr. With little room to argue the people, unnerved, agree. Mere hours before the fleet comes in word comes of a Chaos Host marching south along the cost, many warriors and knights holding frightful banners yet they're not ransacking towns. An emissary of the Chaos Host approaches the town, meeting with the town guard saying only this; "In the upcoming battle we are allies, aboard those ships true service is not being shown, three of our lords grow jealous and have marked us for greatness today. A balance must be met or all shall feel their wrath, the forces of the wastes are here to teach the Prince of Pleasure some humility. Either you will fight along side us for glory or we with charge through you", and with that Chaos Warriors marched in step to reinforce the coast.

The game was a genuinely fun game. Six players, a massive 10ft by 6ft "sea landing" game board (made by a friend of mine and one of the people playing). We each had a 3000 point army (so 9,000 points per side), and it took us from 1pm until about 7pm to finish the game (although that did include a 30 min trip to Subway half-way in).

I think the OP is referring to taking units from another race as part of your original points allowance, not teams of armies.

Lord Inquisitor
12-08-2012, 19:12
I don't think I'd be a fan of allies in WFB. I fear it might well be something that comes to WFB in 9th ed and it wouldn't really welcome it, at least outside of specific formats like Storm of Magic, or as an optional element.

Allies in 40K is something of a different beast. I'm not convinced that allies in 40K is (a return to) the best thing ever. Some very broken seeming combos have already come to light, I rather expect more to come as time goes on. It definitely increased the min-max opportunities. Implementation was also sloppy with an ally matrix that really left a lot to be desired. That said, the ally system has some tremendous potential and I'll trade throwing any pretence at game balance out the window for genestealer cults and deathwatch imperial agents. The ally system has been a lot of fun and I think it will continue to be.

In WFB? I'm not convinced there's quite as much potential. I remember the days of 25% ally option and everyone just took dogs of war cannons. Undead with dogs of war cannons. Elves with dogs of war cannons. Etc. Storm of Magic has a simple but functional ally system - although I did find it an odd system. You can summon living units but ally with daemon/undead units? Wouldn't it have made much more sense that you can ally with a living army and summon daemons/undead? But SoM is grossly different to your average game of WFB anyway.

Certainly it would allow Chaos players to mix-n-match their armies again and there would be some rejoicing there. Ogre mercenaries again. Some options for mini army books, Kislev, perhaps or dogs of war? But the min-max potential would be pretty horrible. Imagine a Daemon army with a small contingent of chaos dwarfs, a magma cannon and a destroyer? An Empire or Dwarf army with extra allied cannons? Unlike 40K, which seems to have given up on balance or streamlined rules altogether, I think WFB is moving in a good direction, more balanced books, tighter rules and a better game. Allies would undermine that and dilute the flavour of the game.

snyggejygge
12-08-2012, 22:21
Mech is right in that, in older editions, armies could be composed of up to 25% allies. I don't have my old books around me, but I think legal allies were included in the AB and BRB.



Beastmen hate Warriors of Chaos. They're jealous of the gifts the Chaos gods bestow upon men. Beastmen are the true children of Chaos, so the gods don't have to tempt them with anything.



Please refer a page number where it says specifically they hate WoC. Besides WoC & beastmen have been allies since 3:rd edition, 7:th edition was the first time they got split up without any chance of being in the same army, so for long time gamers if feels natural to use all 3 factions of Chaos as one army...

I'd love a return of allies, even if it was just DoW where you could use other armies models as counts as.

logan054
12-08-2012, 22:28
Please refer a page number where it says specifically they hate WoC. Besides WoC & beastmen have been allies since 3:rd edition, 7:th edition was the first time they got split up without any chance of being in the same army, so for long time gamers if feels natural to use all 3 factions of Chaos as one army..

Tamurkhan my friend ;)

MajorWesJanson
12-08-2012, 23:21
How do the 40k allies stuff work then? Are they limited in any way (no rare or somesuch) or is it like fantasy where you just pair two seperate armies?


Allies in 40K have a minimum of one HQ choice and one troop choice, then can choose to take one more unit from each force org slot- Elites, troops, Fast attack, and heavy support. There is no points limit on the allied force, it just has to fit in the smaller FOC.

For fantasy, I think the equivalent would be for an ally to have one lord or hero and one core unit, and then can take a special and/or rare if desired.

Gor
12-08-2012, 23:28
Please refer a page number where it says specifically they hate WoC. Besides WoC & beastmen have been allies since 3:rd edition, 7:th edition was the first time they got split up without any chance of being in the same army, so for long time gamers if feels natural to use all 3 factions of Chaos as one army...

I'd love a return of allies, even if it was just DoW where you could use other armies models as counts as.

Much of the 2nd Beastmen AB introduction fluff (Nature of the Beast? I think) deals with their hatred to anything harkening to mankind, progress, or civilization (all of which though pointing more towards "Order" armies still would hold true towards WoC) and specifically mentions the jealousy felt over how the chaos gods tempt their human counterparts with gifts. Beastmen hate everyone including their own brethren -- why wouldn't they hate WoC?

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to have WoC allies for Beastmen or Beastmen allies for WoC. It does make sense. The will of the Chaos gods is all that matters. I was just stating they aren't "buddies".

I'm well aware of when they were split up. At the time I was getting into Warhammer, Beastmen were simply a unit for Chaos.

Charistoph
12-08-2012, 23:59
Allies in 40K have a minimum of one HQ choice and one troop choice, then can choose to take one more unit from each force org slot- Elites, troops, Fast attack, and heavy support. There is no points limit on the allied force, it just has to fit in the smaller FOC.

For fantasy, I think the equivalent would be for an ally to have one lord or hero and one core unit, and then can take a special and/or rare if desired.

Exactly this. We'd probably even see a percentage cap on them, if that organizational standard stays for 9th. Which would seiously limit the whole "Undead with Cannon" thst everyone seems so scared of. If they go with a 25% cap, that seriously limits what most forces can field in most standard games. We're talking Border Patrol sizes through 2K points. Even more limiting if there are similar restrictions interally so 50% of the 25 % can go to Special after the Core and character(s) have been paid. Not a lot of unbalanced stuff can fit in there, and it limits your primary army's best formations, too.

Grovel
13-08-2012, 07:12
Exactly this. We'd probably even see a percentage cap on them, if that organizational standard stays for 9th. Which would seiously limit the whole "Undead with Cannon" thst everyone seems so scared of. If they go with a 25% cap, that seriously limits what most forces can field in most standard games. We're talking Border Patrol sizes through 2K points. Even more limiting if there are similar restrictions interally so 50% of the 25 % can go to Special after the Core and character(s) have been paid. Not a lot of unbalanced stuff can fit in there, and it limits your primary army's best formations, too.

While I'm all for allies returning, I can certainly see imbalanced options regardless of the restrictions.
In some armies, the core units are where the 'overpowered' units are, and GW don't like to limit core at all. a 2k point game could still squeeze in 30 odd Bloodletters with a Herald of Khorne, for example.

T10
13-08-2012, 08:41
True dat, although those rules are designed for multiplayer games.


Remove excess players and that's your single-player alliance right there!

-T10

TheDungen
13-08-2012, 09:09
then i could make a cult of slaanesh army again, jippie!

Cap'n Facebeard
13-08-2012, 11:13
then i could make a cult of slaanesh army again, jippie!

I hadn't even thought of that, now I seriously want Allies back in.

What's the worst Allies abuse possible, if for the sake of argument we say there are no restrictions on who can ally with who?
High Elves with hydras?
Lizardmen with a K'Daai Destroyer?

BorderKing
13-08-2012, 12:01
I would seriously love allies back, as it would allow me to really customise my army. Just because the destroyer is broken as heck, which if this is in the next edition wont be an issue as the destroyer will be sorted out by then/ nerfed, doesn't make this a bad idea. Some people will always try and create the most powerful list they can, but others will just realise this is a game and try and have fun with the new mechanic.

In the last doubles tournament I went to I fought a highelf/dwarf gunline army, which wasn't fun at all so there should be some restrictions to it. They should probably put all warmachines into rare though, to limit the potential of shooty armies and limit the amount of allies you can take such as only one of a certain the unit, or one from each army book. I'm sure GW could balance it more then me in reply to this thread, and if they did I know I would buy more miniatures in the future. In tournaments I'm sure the organiser would limit what you can take, they already do this for certain units/items so the list would only be a bit longer.

I can't justify buying cool looking models that exist in other armies as I can't use them, but everytime GW released something new and cool looking for any army I would probably think how I could fit that into my army. It would keep me more interested in all of GW's releases, then just the ones that effect my army.

yabbadabba
13-08-2012, 12:25
I can't justify buying cool looking models that exist in other armies as I can't use them... Yes you can, you just need to build a gaming environment that allows it. Even a tournament could allow allies, right now, if it wanted to. In fact Doubles is almost that anyway.

King Arthur
13-08-2012, 12:46
How about Dogs of War guys they took it out because it became unbalenced dwarfs with cavalry etc. well that what my games workshop manager told me.

sulla
13-08-2012, 14:12
I hadn't even thought of that, now I seriously want Allies back in.

What's the worst Allies abuse possible, if for the sake of argument we say there are no restrictions on who can ally with who?
High Elves with hydras?
Lizardmen with a K'Daai Destroyer?
Dirtiest DE listpossible wit a runelord and upstrength grudge thrower...
Daemons with cannons...

Bladelord
13-08-2012, 14:23
High Elves with hydras?

They already exist & they're called Dark Elves, but instead of overpriced units they have underpriced.:p

TheDungen
13-08-2012, 14:28
its easy jsut make everything that you ally in cost 10% more point than they do in their original book and then say that the allies have to be a legal army in their own right (character+ a certain amount of core) this core doesnt count towards the main amries core choices. lord, heroes, Special and rare coices are limited to % based on the points of the allied detachment but alos counts towrds the limitation of the main army. this means that adding allies will quickly force you to take alot more core than you generally would. Taking allies thus becomes slightly underpowered, but if used proparly and in an unexpected way may win you a game here and there.

let me clarify:


Main army 2.000 points:
25% compulsory core. 500
25% Lord allowance 500
25% Hero allowance 500
50% special allowance 1000
25% rare allowance 500
25% allies Allowance 500

Allied contingent 500:
+25% core 125
25% lord 125 count toward lord choices for the main army too
25% hero 125 count toward hero choices for the main army too
50% special 250 count toward special choices for the main army too
25% rare 125 count toward rare choices for the main army too

(possible Allies cost 110% of their cost in their orginal book)

to how much does the destroyed cost? 500pts? i'm guessing its rare?

so 500x4=2000 for the size the allies contingent would have to be. which is 2.000x4=8.000 for the game size required. in an 8.0000 point game you have to take 2.0000 point core standard and now you have to take an additional 500 points and a hero or lord choice from the (chaos dwarf?) book. and in order to actually get to 500pts allied rare you have to have a 2.0000 points allied cointigent. which quickly starts eating up the strenghts of the army you're actually playing. og and you st spend 1/4 of your own armies rare choices an an ally.

so is the +10% to harsh?

Stoss
13-08-2012, 16:02
I have been considering doing a Marienburg army with maybe Leitpold and some Ogres as allies.

I do find the fact that Non-aligned armies together not being friendly seems to be rather bizarre. To be honest, the allies should probably move to a more army-to-army basis like 40k.

Charistoph
13-08-2012, 16:18
While I'm all for allies returning, I can certainly see imbalanced options regardless of the restrictions.
In some armies, the core units are where the 'overpowered' units are, and GW don't like to limit core at all. a 2k point game could still squeeze in 30 odd Bloodletters with a Herald of Khorne, for example.

What makes a lot of stuff unbalanced in most tournament-sized games is when you can bring a lot of them. One regiment alone is not unbalanced, as you pay for it, one way or another (Daemons being a mild exception, they are still underpriced, but that's an army book issue). And if you bring Daemons with Warriors, that's just one more regiment of Marauders or Warriors that you aren't bringing, either. And those Bloodletters are far more nasty when backed up with Hounds and Flamers, correct?

Montegue
13-08-2012, 17:17
A unit of Swiftstride/Stubborn Maneaters done up like Troll Slayers would be a hilarious addition to my Dwarf army.

Odin
14-08-2012, 13:25
I'd love allies to be a more normal part of Warhammer. My Ostermark army could finally go back to having Ogres in it (as Ostermark are famous for). My Chaos army can be put back together (though Tamurkhan does a nice job of this for casual games). And I might even get a few Bretonnians to go with my Wood Elves occasionally.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-08-2012, 15:00
Allies would be a huge pile of BS. I hated the arbitrary Tzeentchian nature of codices back when I played 2nd ed 40k, and I would hate it with a passion in the future. It's akin to One Army Book To Rule Them All, for only 500 € (they'd still sell each faction's seperately of course).



Suddenly them rats got cavalry. Along with the darts (giant rats), this takes it to a whole new level... Gets me more interested! :cool:

I'm *still* sometimes confusing units and abilities after oh-so-many games. Carnosaurs with Bloodletters on them led by a zealous Archlector inspiring them in a Skaven army would indeed take it to a whole new level of utter sillyness.


What makes a lot of stuff unbalanced in most tournament-sized games is when you can bring a lot of them. One regiment alone is not unbalanced, as you pay for it, one way or another


Even a single Stank or Engineer'ed Great Cannon in Wood Elves or DoC will make so many paople cry. Some things are only funny in a very general "It's just a game, who cares about this game, I could play anything, why don#t I get another beer" sort of way. Which is not something I see GW encourage in this or the next millenium.

Antipathy
14-08-2012, 15:52
Although likely not to occur, I played in a 9K a side 3v3 the other day.

WoC with Doom Totem, Pandaemonium and Diabolic Splendour, Daemons with The Masque, Great Icon of Despair, Vampires with Aura of Dark Majesty and Beguile. -5 Ld to most units involved.

Admittedly, never going to happen in a standard game, but Allies allows for some pretty broken stuff - akin to Eldrad allowing you to suddenly redeploy your Broadsides with perfect positioning.

Lord Inquisitor
14-08-2012, 16:59
LOL if you got pandemonium, phantasmagoria, diabolic spendour, masque, icon of dispair, doom totem, AoDM, screaming banner and fear incarnate on one unit...

You'd take your fear test on 4D6 discarding the two lowest at -5 to -7, with no character's Ld being used and if you pass you have to re-roll (or cancel out BSB).

Solonor
14-08-2012, 17:11
LOL if you got pandemonium, phantasmagoria, diabolic spendour, masque, icon of dispair, doom totem, AoDM, screaming banner and fear incarnate on one unit...

You'd take your fear test on 4D6 discarding the two lowest at -5 to -7, with no character's Ld being used and if you pass you have to re-roll (or cancel out BSB).

Perhaps they playtested allies for 8th edition, but then they thought "...take your fear test on 4D6 discarding the two lowest at -5 to -7, with no character's Ld being used and if you pass you have to re-roll (or cancel out BSB)...." well we better not....

yabbadabba
14-08-2012, 17:13
I really don't think that Allies for WFB is a problem, but as the above post shows you will need to think carefully about the people you play with and what you want to achieve by using them. In the end, you can always say no.

Petey
14-08-2012, 17:51
Really, I like the storm of magic set up for fantasy, since we don't have a force org. Each army gets a quarter (or whatever) of its points to spend on another army with normal restrictions, then use the allies rules in BRB, since they are 2 seperate armies. Simple, easy, and no mess; both players agree or they don't. Set up for tournaments, it's there or it isn't. This doesn't need to be anything more.

That having been said, if we see it as a part of 9th, I bet we will see it as 25% of your points can be used to buy allies, and get a 40k chart to determine if they like you or not (like in high school)

Lord Inquisitor
14-08-2012, 18:01
That chart already exists along with detailed rules as to how they interact, arguably more detailed than in 40k.

The only real difference is that the WFB are presented as an optional set of rules without formal structure for standard games (excluding storm of magic) whereas in 40k they are given as part of the standard FOC. That's the difference between people using the rules and not using them.

yabbadabba
14-08-2012, 18:08
The only real difference is that the WFB are presented as an optional set of rules without formal structure for standard games (excluding storm of magic) whereas in 40k they are given as part of the standard FOC. That's the difference between people using the rules and not using them. Ah, now, if I use the Blood in the Badlands Campaign book (don't have SoC to hand) and the FW argument I reckon we could get a good argument going that those rules are not optional but compulsory ;)

Tupinamba
14-08-2012, 22:44
While in theory allies options could be cool to make it possible for people to use all their collection and/or come up with fluffy different armies, the example of what is currently happening in 40k does not bode well for the idea and Iīd rather they remain purely for campaign/multiplayer battles. The stuff I see people discussing in the 40k thread, like IG armies allied with Deamons, Dark Eldar with Farseers etc. etc. make me dread for whfb.

With the ever more predominant powergaming mentality, allies options in tournaments and tournament preparation friendly games have huge potential to break the game and take away the specific characteristics of each factions. An army is defined by its weakness too, not only its strenghts, and allies in the way of 6. ed. 40k make it possible to circumvent the weaknesses.

yabbadabba
14-08-2012, 23:01
The stuff I see people discussing in the 40k thread, like IG armies allied with Deamons, Dark Eldar with Farseers etc. etc. make me dread for whfb. Says more about the people than the game to be honest.

With the ever more predominant powergaming mentality, allies options in tournaments and tournament preparation friendly games have huge potential to break the game and take away the specific characteristics of each factions. An army is defined by its weakness too, not only its strenghts, and allies in the way of 6. ed. 40k make it possible to circumvent the weaknesses Agreed, but thats why tournaments houserule.

TheDungen
14-08-2012, 23:13
with the right ally rules you can make covering your weaknesses non viable without also strongly diminishing your strengths.

The bearded one
14-08-2012, 23:16
With allies in fantasy similar to how they are in 40K, most armies will probably 'borrow' 2x50 slaves and a warlock engineer with doomrocket from skaven. Total cost? 245pts. Worth? Priceless.

On the other hand, allies do allow more fluffy combinations; imperial dwarfs in an empire army, an Arkhan the black army using VC army elements, mixtures of chaos (warriors with summoned daemons, or the WoC gribblies with beastmen rank&file, etc.), early wood elves (right after the war of vengeance), using wood elves with high elf blocks mixed in, a bretonnia-empire crusade force, dark elves allied with (read; manipulating) chaos or greenskins, etc. etc. etc.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-08-2012, 13:47
Says more about the people than the game to be honest.

It surely does but I don't leave any matches lying around in the children's room either. Allies in WFB are like communism: It sounds promising at first, then human nature steps in.

yabbadabba
15-08-2012, 15:21
It surely does but I don't leave any matches lying around in the children's room either. Allies in WFB are like communism: It sounds promising at first, then human nature steps in. You've just suggested that GW treat its customers like children? Now aside from the fact that that is their target demographic, do you really mean that?

cyberspite
15-08-2012, 21:26
Where's Lord Dan? This calls for a poll.

The bearded one
15-08-2012, 22:33
You've just suggested that GW treat its customers like children? Now aside from the fact that that is their target demographic, do you really mean that?

To be fair, a significant % of the world's population requires child-like treatment, simply because humans don't always like to play fairly or by the rules. You just can't trust people to go by the spirit or intention of a system. Prisons are the adult 'time-out' :p

tiger g
15-08-2012, 22:41
To be fair, a significant % of the world's population requires child-like treatment, simply because humans don't always like to play fairly or by the rules. You just can't trust people to go by the spirit or intention of a system. Prisons are the adult 'time-out' :p

Great point.

Urgat
15-08-2012, 23:28
To be fair, a significant % of the world's population requires child-like treatment, simply because humans don't always like to play fairly or by the rules. You just can't trust people to go by the spirit or intention of a system. Prisons are the adult 'time-out' :p

Child-like treatment is calling that mildly. I got a harsher way to say it...