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jfrazell
08-05-2006, 19:39
Stolen from Dakka which stole it from the GW forums

Yanked from the GW forums
Hi guys,

Just so there isn't any unecessary speculation about the original question in this thread I thought I'd post a reply.

The new 40K GT pack is due to be published on the web next week so you'll be able to look at all the 'house rules for this year UK GT Tournament season.

I will tell you now though that the original poster was correct. Codex: Eye of Terror and Codex: Armageddon are both excluded from the GT's for similar reasons to the Storm of Chaos book for Warhammer. the Codex: Craftworld Eldar has been removed, on the advice of the Games Development team, because of issues with these rules that will be resolved in the near future.

If anyone has any comments or questions about this then feel free to get in touch through the events email address
events@games-workshp.co.uk

Hope that's OK

Brian

stahly
08-05-2006, 19:44
Do I understand this right?
Craftworld variant lists are removed because they are too good? :wtf
What's next? "For this event Assault cannons become Heavy 3"?!

jfrazell
08-05-2006, 19:48
So viable armies not viable any more:
*LATD
*13th Company
*Kult of Speed
*Craftworld Lists.
Why not just void lists that have been supplanted?

notdakuningist
08-05-2006, 20:43
So much for playing a chaos army with some diversity.

Captain Marius
08-05-2006, 22:16
It's good to see that the tournament organisers are being consistent. If people insist on playing the game in a competitive environment then fewer lists will logically make for a more balanced game. Even with that in mind, as the Codexes are updated there is likely to be more choice in army list selection than ever before.

It also sounds like some of the themes behind the Craftworld Eldar Codex lists will be carried over to the new Eldar Codex! That to me is very exciting news!

Orinoco
08-05-2006, 22:35
what a load of ****.

(Evil)Ash
08-05-2006, 23:50
yeah, why release an official army list if you're not allowed to use it!:wtf:

Voracioustigger
09-05-2006, 00:45
Well, now I'm doubly glad I switched to SST...

I played 13th Company and Saim-Hann eldar, so thanks GW for finding a way to specifically exclude me from your game.

See, Craftworld eldar I can understand excluding this year because they'll get an update this year, but Orks, Space Wolves and Chaos are 18 months or more from being updated, so why not allow them to keep their lists at least until they're updated.

What worries me most about this is that it is quite possible that the Lost and the Damned AND the 13th Company will go the way of the squats now. All those people who bought Wulfen or spent hours converting guard models to look like mutants now have a LOW of useless models. I for one, had an all Wulfen army, so I'm really annoyed because I can't even use a lot of my force as Space Wolves.

GW SPECIFICALLY told consumers that these lists would be usable after the EoT campaign. Maybe they should have specified that one would be invalidated in a matter of months and the other 3 would be gone in a few years, and I'm betting that at least 1 of the remaining 3 (13th, Latd, USF) will never be seen again.

Easy E
09-05-2006, 01:05
I'm torn by this.

Part of my says: "Great they are reducing the diversity even more, and making the game more vanilla and more boring."

The Other Part says: 'Who cares. Tournaments are a crap way to play the game anyway."

A Third of Me says: "Yeah, power armor and starcannons for everyone!"

A Small Part of My Pea Brain says: "I hope since these lists are no longer tournaments legal, by default; they can not be played anywhere by anyone. Some people seem to think that way. Scary."

vudoo1979
09-05-2006, 05:42
I guess the next question is how long is it going to be before they do this to the RTT scene as well.

Antaeus
09-05-2006, 12:10
Craftworld Eldar are excluded, but the Marine sub-Codexes are fine? Odd.

Warsmith Strader
09-05-2006, 12:44
Craftworld Eldar are excluded, but the Marine sub-Codexes are fine? Odd.

the third edition codexes for the marines are still valid until there 4th edition version come out.... the full versions at that.

besides that doesn't hurt the Salamanders player anyway do to the fact that they now use the newer space marines codexs with traits.

Antaeus
09-05-2006, 12:54
I just can't see any reason for restricting what Eldar players can field, but not what Marine players can. Yes, the Craftworld lists are heavily open to abuse, but very few lists aren't. Seems rather strange behaviour...

darghan
09-05-2006, 13:52
I'm perfectly happy with this development! There where far to many EOT and Armaggedon armies out there anyway!

At least this way the few beleaguered Space Marine armies get a chance to make their appearance at a GT, now. :evilgrin:

Anathema
09-05-2006, 14:08
Strange how this thread seems to have got a lot of replies in a short time but the identical one directly below didn't?????:wtf: Anyway, my views are outlined there.


At least this way the few beleaguered Space Marine armies get a chance to make their appearance at a GT, now.

Hahahaha!!! Nice one.

vudoo1979
09-05-2006, 16:34
But for a codex with abuse power you still have all the chaos list/ you can always go abuse those

Orbital
09-05-2006, 18:26
There are two things at play right now which have inspired this decision from GW.

The Eldar and Ork codices are both likely to be released before or during the tournament season. When they are, GW doesn't want people playing both old and new rules at the same time, and it's better to kill the old rules before the season starts than to do it in the middle. Seriously: Would you rather find out that your list isn't legal for tournaments before or after you buy the models and paint them?

There are some sub-lists which won't likely see new revisions before the tournament season is over (I'm thinking LatD, 13th Company). Not all lists are made with tournaments in mind and they don't receive the playtesting that the main codex does, thus leaving loopholes through which ******s can make tournaments stupid (20+ man Seer Council, anyone?). There may be supplements or White Dwarf articles to update these lists for tournaments, but they are still perfectly legal for non-tournament play. Disqualifying a list for tournaments is NOT the same as "sending them the way of Squats". Tournament play is a small slice of the overall 40k hobby and community... so don't panic.

cookiescrumble
10-05-2006, 08:17
You do know that most tournaments will not allow these lists aswell. They make theirs using the GT pack as the basis.

Orbital
10-05-2006, 08:20
You do know that most tournaments will not allow these lists aswell. They make theirs using the GT pack as the basis.

I think that's a cross-that-bridge-when-we-come-to-it matter.

Jonathan =I=
10-05-2006, 13:12
Strange how this thread seems to have got a lot of replies in a short time but the identical one directly below didn't?????:wtf: Anyway, my views are outlined there.



Hahahaha!!! Nice one.http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34753 Yeah I know:eyebrows:

Must have been the more catchy title.

Bruen
10-05-2006, 15:29
Disqualifying a list for tournaments is NOT the same as "sending them the way of Squats". Tournament play is a small slice of the overall 40k hobby and community... so don't panic.

Except that most of the people that I know will refuse to play anything that isn't tournament legal.

philbrad2
10-05-2006, 16:32
Little OT but in a similar vein I noticed all of the studios DA army has been removed form the minis museum at Lenton today. Not the usual card saying "these are out for photos etc.." but gone, period. Noticed most of the chaos armies had been took out for photos to. The studio's rather nice and surprisingly large BT armys is on display though .

As for the armylist/codex drop - are you surprised with Codex Eldar on its way and armylists in some of the others have been upgraded a few times since. Didn't BT come out in Codex:Armageddon, then update in IA and then get their codex? Nod bad for an army less than 6 years old. :)

:chrome:

Eldanar
10-05-2006, 17:07
Two points:

1. This appears (so far) to only affect UK tournaments. Who knows how long before it appears in the (somewhat defunct) US tournament system?

2. They have cut out all of these flavorfull armies (granted one or two could be a little abusive), and yet they have opened up tournaments (at least in the US...don't know about UK) for Armoured Companies...:wtf:

Lyinar
10-05-2006, 20:39
Pardon me for saying this, but I am quite angry... WHAT THE GORRAM HELL IS GOING ON WITH THE ABSOLUTE ****** RUNNING THE UK TOURNAMENTS?!

First they dumped Storm of Chaos before a single one of the armies were superseded by another list. Granted, the Slayer Army and the "We'll destroy your entire army before the game even begins" High Elf Sea Patrol were hellishly unbalanced and abusable, but what about Middenheim? What about the really-fast skirmishers of Eshin who die when looked at and thus have night-fighting rules?

Now they're dumping Craftworld Eldar, Armageddon, AND Eye of Terror? Well, there goes my Ulthwé force... guess it's a good thing I decided not to actually make it until after the new codex. Hey, my 13th Company idea's shot to hell too. Oh, and so much for my Lost and the Damned that I JUST ordered the parts to make the commander for... And it's a damn good thing I don't have enough money to properly make good-looking Orky vehicles, because I wouldn't be able to make Speed Freekz anymore...

Then again, none of this really matters to me yet because I'm in the US and can actually still do all of those, because their tournament planners haven't yet been taken over by sadistic bastards who like to invalidate not just army lists, but because they haven't released anything to fill the gaps, entire army concepts. Think about it... People who want to play a Chaos force that is NOT a Marine army are screwed. People who want to play a fast, mobile Ork army instead of slogging their way across the board on foot are screwed. People who want to play ANY kind of Eldar other than the plain vanilla list are screwed, and that's the part that's truly got me angry... To tell someone who poured thousands of dollars and unimaginable effort into an Iyanden army that "oh, we're sorry, you can't participate in anything official until November" IS sadistic, and it's even more sadistic to tell someone that the army that they completed is never going to be officially playable ever again.

The real problem, however, isn't that they've done this, but instead that *gasp-shock-horror* most gamers actually give a damn about what's tournament legal or not outside of tournaments. Which means that all of the people who spent so much time and money and effort making those armies that the evil frakkers running the UK GT's just invalidated on a whim, aren't even going to be able to play.

Fallen Angel
10-05-2006, 23:39
Disqualifying a list for tournaments is NOT the same as "sending them the way of Squats".

Squats.... that one of Brians 2 most hated words.

Good thing my mate is currently scratch building a squat army for this years heats.....

They may be "deleted" but they aint dead baby.

Orbital
11-05-2006, 01:12
Now they're dumping Craftworld Eldar, Armageddon, AND Eye of Terror? Well, there goes my Ulthwé force... guess it's a good thing I decided not to actually make it until after the new codex. Hey, my 13th Company idea's shot to hell too. Oh, and so much for my Lost and the Damned that I JUST ordered the parts to make the commander for... And it's a damn good thing I don't have enough money to properly make good-looking Orky vehicles, because I wouldn't be able to make Speed Freekz anymore...

That's a whole lot of weeping for someone who isn't affected by the ruling in any way.

Eldanar
11-05-2006, 02:55
...Then again, none of this really matters to me yet because I'm in the US and can actually still do all of those, because their tournament planners haven't yet been taken over by sadistic bastards who like to invalidate not just army lists, but because they haven't released anything to fill the gaps, entire army concepts. Think about it... People who want to play a Chaos force that is NOT a Marine army are screwed. People who want to play a fast, mobile Ork army instead of slogging their way across the board on foot are screwed. People who want to play ANY kind of Eldar other than the plain vanilla list are screwed, and that's the part that's truly got me angry... To tell someone who poured thousands of dollars and unimaginable effort into an Iyanden army that "oh, we're sorry, you can't participate in anything official until November" IS sadistic, and it's even more sadistic to tell someone that the army that they completed is never going to be officially playable ever again...



At least the people in the UK get a proper GT...:cries:

vudoo1979
11-05-2006, 04:04
At least the people in the UK get a proper GT...:cries:


That is about half true!! Even playing in the Atl GD was the worst tournament I have ever seen so unorganized but on the bright side they didn't make up a rule on the fly like I have heard of in the UK GT... And yes I hope they do not do this to the US tournaments...

Yarick Zan
11-05-2006, 04:17
they will just sit back and watch as all this stuff starts going down the proverbial pooper.

Lyinar
11-05-2006, 13:10
I'm not weeping, just ranting and raving. Sanity is, after all, for the weak. ;)

And you notice that I said I'm not affected YET. That is the key word... Will the US GTs follow suit and thus make it impossible to actually play any of those armies thanks to the "NOT TOURNAMENT LEGAL, YOU CAN'T PLAY AGAINST ME!!!!" mindset?

Orbital
11-05-2006, 13:18
I'm not weeping, just ranting and raving. Sanity is, after all, for the weak. ;)

And you notice that I said I'm not affected YET. That is the key word... Will the US GTs follow suit and thus make it impossible to actually play any of those armies thanks to the "NOT TOURNAMENT LEGAL, YOU CAN'T PLAY AGAINST ME!!!!" mindset?

See, when you talk like this:


Now they're dumping Craftworld Eldar, Armageddon, AND Eye of Terror? Well, there goes my Ulthwé force... guess it's a good thing I decided not to actually make it until after the new codex. Hey, my 13th Company idea's shot to hell too. Oh, and so much for my Lost and the Damned that I JUST ordered the parts to make the commander for... And it's a damn good thing I don't have enough money to properly make good-looking Orky vehicles, because I wouldn't be able to make Speed Freekz anymore...

...it makes it sound like the GW cops came to your house and pried all your models from your hands.

At present only people who play at GTs in the UK are affected. Most of us aren't in the UK, and of those that are, few play in GTs (yeah, I know people would like to say that it's most... but it's not). You can still take your 13th Company and LatD lists into any battle bunker and rock out.

What's more, those who are complaining about the Eldar and Ork changes are likely to have all new (and probably better) options available rather soon.

I know that freaking out over GW rules and policies is a hobby all its own, but we really should show a bit of restraint here. A few lists are being put on ice for a small sliver of community gameplay... and most of those iced lists will only be gone temporarily.

If other sectors of GW rules are affected somewhere down the road, then we can all be crazygonuts together.

Lyinar
11-05-2006, 14:12
I guess my problem is that I'd much rather see them have to deal with two sets of rules for one tournament than kill off a list six months to several years before there's any other option for it. When is Chaos being redone? It's certainly more than two years from now, and even then, there's absolutely no guarantee that they'll incompass LatD-style "mere mortals" armies in it. I'd love to see a much more generalized Chaos Codex that has Space Marines and cultist-types working together for the Greater Evil. Read the Gaunt's Ghosts, or Ciaphas Cain novels... Chaos Marines are INSANELY rare in those... the Tanith First and Only faces, IIRC, two squads of Marines between First and Only and Traitor General, as opposed to countless hordes of cultists and traitor guardsmen. Ciaphas Cain's only experience with Marines in the books (and the short stories) is one isolated marine leading a LatD-style army of Khorne Flakes in one assault, and one squad teleported in to try to stop a Slaaneshi ritual that the Guardsmen are also trying to stop. Even Inquisitor Eisenhorn faced, what, a handful of actual Chaos Marines?

Now in England, Games Workshop has said that you can't field forces of traitor guardsmen mixed with Space Marines in tournaments, and thanks to the aforementioned mindset of a lot of the players (and I believe you're rather fortunate that you actually have people who'll let your insanely time/money/effort-consuming Iyanden force play against them), they won't even be able to play in 'friendly' games, either.

Then there's the issue of whether that decision will be limited to Games Workshop's homeland, or if it will spread through the entire hobby... I may end up working for GW (as a redshirt admittedly, but hey, I need a job, and I've been trying to find one that matches my qualifications for four months without success, so I'm open to changing my career options), and I don't want to see people coming into the store that I'd be working at and not even bothering to bring their lovingly-converted armies in because they're not tournament legal and they don't think that anyone will play against them because of it... Not to mention the fact that I'm making my LatD Slaaneshi Daemon Princess as one of my 'résumé' models, and it'd be wrong to get hired partially based on how well I did with a model I'm never going to get to use.

Orbital
11-05-2006, 14:28
I guess my problem is that I'd much rather see them have to deal with two sets of rules for one tournament than kill off a list six months to several years before there's any other option for it.

Ok, so you don't see it as a problem when one guy playing Ulthwe (old rules) wins the GT because he has a 30-man Seer Council while, at the same time, another guy playing Ulthwe (new rules which might have a limit on SC size) who is just as good can't get that top spot? If you think people are bitter now because the list was put on ice, you should see how people would react if this happened.


When is Chaos being redone? It's certainly more than two years from now, and even then, there's absolutely no guarantee that they'll incompass LatD-style "mere mortals" armies in it.

And why should they redo Chaos? That LatD sub-list isn't allowed in the UK GT's. Let's say there's no White Dwarf update down the road (and btw, GW now has a full team of testers whose only job is to update FAQs and Chapter Approved material)... you can still field LatD in tournaments and non-tournament games all over the world. Just not that one tournament.


Now in England, Games Workshop has said that you can't field forces of traitor guardsmen mixed with Space Marines in tournaments, and thanks to the aforementioned mindset of a lot of the players (and I believe you're rather fortunate that you actually have people who'll let your insanely time/money/effort-consuming Iyanden force play against them), they won't even be able to play in 'friendly' games, either.

Again, it's like you're trying to create an emergency that isn't really happening.

No-one currently has the right to refuse you to play legal armies in friendly games and, at the moment, the armies for which GW sells codices can be played in most tournaments, world-wide.


Then there's the issue of whether that decision will be limited to Games Workshop's homeland, or if it will spread through the entire hobby...

And, as you write this, you can take any of your armies into any US store for any tournament and still play them. Don't you think you're going a little nuts?

Orbital
11-05-2006, 14:34
A friend of mine who works for GW posted this on another forum:


There's no way the LATD is just getting ditched. Its more likely that since in EOT, once the eldar codex comes out, the only army left are 13th co and LATD, that on the web or in a dwarf you will see official rules for these armies, because printing the EOT codex will be useless.

I'll wager 13th co or some variant will make it into the space wolves book.

And like posted.. this is just for the GTs in the UK. assuming only 50,000 players in the world (which we know is way more) and assuming 100 players playing in the UK GTs, thats 0.2 % of players are affected, but at the GT only maybe 25% of those will have to switch armies because of this, so its even smaller.

I think he's hitting a chord of truth here. Why would GW keep reprinting the EoT codex if it's only for 2 armies (read: very few people will buy it). Better to move that content somewhere else (like another codex) and put the army lists on ice until you do so.

Master Jeridian
11-05-2006, 15:31
As Orbital stresses- if your not in the UKGT, bury your head in the sand and hope it won't affect you next. After all when has GW HQ with the sole Games Dev team and the crowning head of the Tournament year (the GT) ever affected 40k......

The attitude of 'if injustice doesn't affect me, I'll ignore it*' is sadly prevalant in society. Nice to see 'solidarity' across the pond is only one-way, as expected.


*Granted the issue of 40k is tiny in comparison to the ignorance of the AID's pandemic in africa, of world poverty, etc.

Orbital
11-05-2006, 15:34
Injustice? We're talking about a few armies being iced for one venue of gaming in one country. We're not talking about feeding peasants into a woodchipper.

Orbital
11-05-2006, 15:45
Ok. Despite the fact that there appears to be some very solid evidence to the contrary, people seem to be convinced that their favorite armies are no longer playable anywhere on God's Green Earth and never will be again. Just please do yourselves one favor: Don't toss, repaint, sell or otherwise close the door on your LatD or 13th Company armies. Ork and Eldar players are (I think) pretty confident that their codices are nigh, but there are a number of very likely places for these other list variants to show up again (White Dwarf, Space Wolves Codex, online Chapter Approved... just to name a few). If they're retiring EoT just because they want to take it out of print (and why wouldn't they if their sublists are mostly available elsewhere?), I doubt that they'll take these lists (especially the very popular LatD) out of rotation for good.

Whine, bellyache, kick, complain, write letters to your congressmen, hold your breath and turn blue... but don't toss those armies. You'll regret it if you do, I'm certain.

Lyinar
11-05-2006, 19:17
I was going a bit nuts, but then again, that was the point.

Sleep deprivation + news like that = a burning need to get the ranting out of my system + incoherence.

Orbital
11-05-2006, 19:20
I was going a bit nuts, but then again, that was the point.

Sleep deprivation + news like that = a burning need to get the ranting out of my system + incoherence.

It's ok. You should have seen me when I heard about the Canadian price hike. :)

Easy E
26-05-2006, 23:23
make it impossible to actually play any of those armies thanks to the "NOT TOURNAMENT LEGAL, YOU CAN'T PLAY AGAINST ME!!!!" mindset?

I think this is the crux of the problem for many people, since very few people actual go to GT's. However, a lot of people use what GT's do and don't do as a basis for their personal gaming. Therefore, if these lists are not allowed to be used at GT's, then a some gamers will not be allowed to play them for personal gaming.

The thinking is, "If these armies are not allowed in a GT, then there must be something wrong with them. Why would I play a game against something that is flawed? It could hamper my enjoyment of the game. I'll take the safe bet and play the game against the GT legal army since it must not be flawed."

P.S. Sorry about the Threadomancy, but this issue boils me too.

geoffkemp
27-05-2006, 09:14
[QUOTE=Easy E]
The thinking is, "If these armies are not allowed in a GT, then there must be something wrong with them. Why would I play a game against something that is flawed? It could hamper my enjoyment of the game. I'll take the safe bet and play the game against the GT legal army since it must not be flawed."
[QUOTE]

I don`t play in GTs anymore, primarily being a campagin player. I`m hoping that this doesn`t boil accross into the campagin weekends. For what it is worth, Brain Andrson has said that each event will be taken on a case by case basis.

Master Jeridian
27-05-2006, 17:21
Have to agree with Easy E!

People keep telling me the GT is a bubble, separate from the rest of 40k gaming. What goes on in a GT has no effect on 40k outside the GT...

I call bulls**t.

If they're not balanced/ fair enough to be used at the GT, why is it any different in a pick-up game?

This clearly isn't true of 13th Co, LaTD and Biel Tan/ Iyanden- yet it is the obvious conclusion from the banning at the GT.

The attitude that 'it's only a few armies, I don't play them- so who cares' just reminds me how selfish and isolated society has become.

Orbital
28-05-2006, 04:17
I just want to point you guys at something that came up several times today at Games Day Canada:
He (Phil Kelly) also took pains several times during the day to stop and explain that the Craftworld lists being removed from the UK GT rules is a decision which was made by the organizer of that event, and him alone. It does not in any way reflect an over-arching decision or direction on the part of GW and he was very, very clear that to think so was a misinterpretation. "Don't take one to mean the other", he said.
The post where this appears is here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=707851&postcount=488), and there's more about Phil Kelly, Eldar and Games Day in that thread. I thought you'd like to know his comments, however.